The Last Jedi... I still don't think it was good

[Mercen-X]

There's been some exchange of opinion regarding Ryan Johnson's entry in the Star Wars franchise. Initial response was poor among longtime fans. And any positive feedback from newcomers was sparse. Rotten Tomatoes has long since abandoned its system of audience reviews leaving a one-sided argument from paid critics that constantly gave the new trilogy a veritable "two thumbs up".

Some fans of the series have taken the time to look the movie over again in hopes of finding something they didn't appreciate before. A standout is the decision to make Rey's parents nobody. Personally, I don't agree that making her a nobody was a good narrative decision but that has more to do with how the first two films ultimately played out. I just as much despised the idea of Rey being related to Palpatine. That just seemed like stupid writing.

It's been stated that Rey's parents being unimportant nobodies with no connection to the Force sends the message that "you don't need to be from a special bloodline to be powerful." But due to the absence of any exertion of effort or at the very least the cliché training montage, the message instead is that "a woman doesn't need to be from a special bloodline to have ultimate power."

There's constant comparison between Rey and Anakin Skywalker in the discussion of Mary Sues. Both are intuitive, powerful, highly skilled with virtually no training, and have virtually the same story beats. The one difference is the last crucial detail that defines a Mary Sue: everyone seems to love and trust her for absolutely no reason. There's no prior connection, she's a stranger with strange powers not to mention the previous person with her potential joined the empire and slaughtered the Jedi.

Anakin doesn't possess this trait. Qui-Gon chooses to train him solely on his devotion to the prophecy that implies this boy is the chosen one. Everyone else is concerned about the potential danger of this unindoctrinated youth. Obi-Wan doesn't initially want to train Anakin, he takes him on to honor his deceased master. Even Padmé initially finds Anakin useless and later even creepy. She doesn't automatically love nor trust him.
Possibly the only person to be wary of Rey is Han Solo but only because he's curious how she got the Falcon.

I'm not saying that the Last Jedi was "a bad movie" solely on the basis that "Rey is a Mary Sue". I simply found Ryan Johnson's decisions to be outright horrible narratively speaking and one of the main story beats (Finn and Rose on Canto Byte) could have been removed for the sake of actually showing us that Luke was really training Rey. The closest thing to an enjoyable scene in the film was the battle against the Red Guard. But... why the hell would these guys sacrifice themselves in battle when their leader is already dead? What kind of idiot writes like this?

I guess a better question would be, why do I even care? Disney is making moves to erase these three films from canon anyway. But as much as I am filled with disappointment at how these films ended up, I just see that they could have been made better. It didn't have to be this way. Disney's biggest mistake was and will always be the decision to disregard all of the stellar novels that had gone before. The First Order... mistake. Snoke... mistake. Palpatine... mistake. Just bad.

This has been another meaningless rant. It's not as if anyone's listening.

[escobert]

I haven't watched any of the new ones except the first and I was far from impressed. I LOVED Star Wars as a kid but besides the OG trilogy the rest has been meh at best for me.

[tony123]

@Mercen-X sorry but the critics don't get paid off. The reason why critics and fans sometimes have completely different scores for things is because they tend to review films differently. Critics do a much better job of taking everything into account while fans tend to just focus on the few things that are specifically important to them. When you take everything into account Last Jedi is a beautifully made film and it is no surprise critics gave it as good of a score as they did. The reason certain groups of fans despised it as much as they did is because it threw some things for a loop. And if there is one thing fans tend not to like it is change.


And it is truly laughable that you think you know how to define the term Mary Sue. Everyone has their own definition for what defines those traits and I hate to break it to you but it can easily be argued that every character in Star Wars is a Gary Stu or Mary Sue.

[krissy]

it's my fave from the new trilogy in terms of plot
force awakens in terms of mood

too bad they only made two movies in the new trilogy but w/e

[Slothy]

it's my fave from the new trilogy in terms of plot
force awakens in terms of mood

too bad they only made two movies in the new trilogy but w/e

I agree with you on it being the best in the new trilogy. Really is a shame they're never going to make that third one though so I guess it's a duology.

[Psychotic]

I thought the Force Awakens was better. It was a fun little romp, and I really enjoyed the chemistry between Rey, Finn and Han (And BB8 for that matter!).

Last Jedi was eh. It wasn't awful, and I liked the main Luke/Rey/Ben plot, and moments like the Holdo kamikaze were great. The B-Plot and the C-Plot were pretty bad though. Finn/Rose/Shady Snake Man on Totes Evil Casino World lacked the aforementioned chemistry and grew boring quickly.

The Poe/Holdo conflict was unbelievably frustrating. You're both being butts! Just talk to each other and stop being so stubborn! It was especially irritating that it was framed as some moral lesson for Poe. What, blindly follow orders without any questions? How is terrible communication a display of good leadership?! Bah.

Oh, and if anyone can tell me the point of Captain Phasma and Snoak I'd be grateful. At least General Hux's downgrade to literal clown got a dumb smile or two.

[Del Murder]

I agree with Psychotic, except that I didn't even like the Luke/Rey/Ben part. It would have been fine if this was a brand new trilogy that did not use already established characters, like it is for Ben and Rey. But Luke's actions towards his own nephew made absolutely no sense in line with his character. This was the guy who threw down his lightsaber to prove that his father, the second most terrible person in the galaxy, still had good in him. There is no way Luke would even think to murder his own nephew in cold blood because he saw 'darkness' in him (Luke himself also has that darkness which he faced and conquered).

The Force Awakens, which was Han's send off movie, at least stayed true to Han's character as a lovable scoundrel who doesn't quite understand the power of the Force. Luke's didn't do him justice, at least until he played that cool trick on Ben at the end.

On the B plot, the fact that the whole thing rides on a slow speed chase through space was pretty dumb. I liked the third act though, particularly Hux and Luke's parts. Also the very very end, with the boy and the broom, was probably the best way to end it for the franchise to move forward after this 'duology'. ;)

The C plot was a complete waste of time, worse even than pod races... :eek:

Phasma and Snoak were created by Abrams, presumably to have more bad guy characters and maybe sell some toys. Johnson decided that we only needed one bad boy in Star Wars, and he's bad enough without his mask (and shirt for some reason).

[Spuuky]

Why DID they stop after two movies in the new trilogy anyway? I always thought that was really weird. Did Kathleen Kennedy ever say anything about that?

[Slothy]

I hear the only person available to write and direct was JJ Abrams so they decided to just shut the whole thing down instead since no ending is literally better than any ending he's ever been involved with.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

My main problem with the story I think was that there was no real cohesive direction for the entire trilogy. It was almost like 3 universes collided and we were left with parts of 3 different trilogies spliced together. That’s how it felt to me anyways. Also, I thought Fynn was horribly underutilized when you had so much interesting stuff you could have done with his character. That was my biggest let down. Well that and I think Admiral Ackbar should have been the one in charge throughout Last Jedi, and that final plan at the end should have had him on the ship smugly saying “It’s a trap” one last time before the whole light speed attack thing.

I enjoyed watching each movie though. They had a ton of problems, and most of the movies felt just downright dumb with all of the problems people already listed here. Still, I was entertained. I have no interest in watching more Star Wars that isn’t The Mandalorian though.

[Jinx]

My least controversial (but also most controversial) opinion is that I unironically enjoy every Star Wars film.

[Shauna]

What value did you find in the last one? Genuinely curious, this is not a dunk.

[Jinx]

I think to understand why/how I enjoy the Star Wars films, you need to understand that I don't go into them looking for high art. Or any art. Or any real, deep, interesting exploration or take. I'm looking for a fun space opera western romp. And I do think RoS delivered on that. Honestly, of all the films, I'd say that TLJ probably delivered this least for me.

That said, it's been a year since I watched it, (and I've been thinking of doing a series rewatch since it's Christmas)...but...fuck. Fine. I'm a Reylo.

HAPPY?!?!?!?!

[krissy]

there was a dude sitting next to me when the smooch scene happened that loudly explaimed 'YES!' in the theater
also when the scene right after happened he went 'WTF!'
he was my fave part of my viewing

[Shauna]

I don't look for high art, and I ain't a big diehard Star Wars fan either. I legit only watched them all fully as an adult within a few weeks of The Force Awakens releasing - I had watched (most of) them before, but it was so long ago and so piecemeal that I couldn't say I had a full experience.

AND YET Rise of Skywalker was Not Great. It was a fun moviegoing experience because Matt and I had a good laugh at many inappropriate moments (the Reylo kiss scene in full was comedy gold). We enjoyed it in a way that I don't think the moviemakers intended.

[Del Murder]

Rise of Skywalker suffered from the fact that it concluded a story that never convinced us why it should be told.

[Slothy]

Rise of Skywalker suffered from the fact that it concluded a story that never convinced us why it should be told.

And I mean it also happened to be really poorly written, poorly paced, poorly directed, and amounted to not much more than really bad fan fiction. None of that helped it. Still probably the worst movie I've ever seen.

[Jinx]

worst movie you've ever seen?

y'all are acting like tros reached the dark knight rises level of garbage.

[Spuuky]

The Dark Knight Rises is a bad movie, but TROS is definitely much worse, still.

Both of them are far from being the worst movie I have ever seen, though. TDKR isn't even the worst movie I have seen with Batman in it! That would be Batman v Superman, which actually IS in my top 5 worst movies I have personally seen to completion.

[Jinx]

oops, my bad

i just meant the dark knight

so sorry


but that movie is really fucking bad, miss me fam

[Lord Golbez]

It's hard for me to say which was worse. A full half of TLJ we just boring and also had some cringeworthy stuff. ROS isn't as easily dividable into boring and entertaining arcs, but it has some of the most cringeworthy plot ideas and moments of any Stat Wars movie. That said, they are both better than Attack of the Clones which was at least 90% boring and also had some of the most cringeworthy dialogue ever.

[Spuuky]

It's hard for me to say which was worse. A full half of TLJ we just boring and also had some cringeworthy stuff. ROS isn't as easily dividable into boring and entertaining arcs, but it has some of the most cringeworthy plot ideas and moments of any Stat Wars movie. That said, they are both better than Attack of the Clones which was at least 90% boring and also had some of the most cringeworthy dialogue ever.Maybe you haven't been paying attention but it's now in style to pretend the prequels aren't absolute trash by simply wishing hard enough that they weren't and reminiscing about how the time when they came out was better than now

[Jinx]

It's hard for me to say which was worse. A full half of TLJ we just boring and also had some cringeworthy stuff. ROS isn't as easily dividable into boring and entertaining arcs, but it has some of the most cringeworthy plot ideas and moments of any Stat Wars movie. That said, they are both better than Attack of the Clones which was at least 90% boring and also had some of the most cringeworthy dialogue ever.Maybe you haven't been paying attention but it's now in style to pretend the prequels aren't absolute trash by simply wishing hard enough that they weren't and reminiscing about how the time when they came out was better than now

Eh, it's honestly just that they're highly memeable and Ewan McGregor is a treasure as Obi-Wan.

[Lord Golbez]

It's hard for me to say which was worse. A full half of TLJ we just boring and also had some cringeworthy stuff. ROS isn't as easily dividable into boring and entertaining arcs, but it has some of the most cringeworthy plot ideas and moments of any Stat Wars movie. That said, they are both better than Attack of the Clones which was at least 90% boring and also had some of the most cringeworthy dialogue ever.Maybe you haven't been paying attention but it's now in style to pretend the prequels aren't absolute trash by simply wishing hard enough that they weren't and reminiscing about how the time when they came out was better than now

To be fair, I don't think the prequels as a whole were as bad as they were typically made out to be at the time. I just think Attack of the Clones, specifically, was even worse than it was made out to be at the time.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I just think Attack of the Clones, specifically, was even worse than it was made out to be at the time.

Ah, my favorite Star Wars movie.

Always good to see it making the rounds.

[Fynn]

It's hard for me to say which was worse. A full half of TLJ we just boring and also had some cringeworthy stuff. ROS isn't as easily dividable into boring and entertaining arcs, but it has some of the most cringeworthy plot ideas and moments of any Stat Wars movie. That said, they are both better than Attack of the Clones which was at least 90% boring and also had some of the most cringeworthy dialogue ever.Maybe you haven't been paying attention but it's now in style to pretend the prequels aren't absolute trash by simply wishing hard enough that they weren't and reminiscing about how the time when they came out was better than now

To be fair, I don't think the prequels as a whole were as bad as they were typically made out to be at the time. I just think Attack of the Clones, specifically, was even worse than it was made out to be at the time.

Agreed. Attack of the Clones felt the least fun but honestly, I still look back on the sequels pretty fondly. Are they good movies? Not really. But they’re also not the travesty people make them out to be and I think the most disappointing part of the sequel trilogy is that it kind of tries to pretend like the prequels never happened. Which is a shame because I think they had a ton of interesting stuff lore-wise

[Christmas]

I got mixed feelings for it but the rise of skywalker really takes the cake. I was like :cry: