PDA

View Full Version : That Bloke in the Pipe [SPOILERS]



Renzokuken
05-05-2002, 06:15 PM
I know this has come up before but I cant find the thread for it so....


Whats the bloke in the pipe for because he doesnt do anything and he just says "oohhhhhhhhhhhh aaaggggggggg" and thats about it and then he dissaears I know that he has a tatoo but there are no Renion People in that area. Another thing the man in the pipe he has alot of trophies was he at the Golden Saucer or something once.
i dnt know its just puzzling he's there and then he never comes back again.

Koi Lung Fish
05-05-2002, 08:14 PM
It's called 'foreshadowing'.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-05-2002, 09:17 PM
Some people like to believe he's Zack. I say there isn't enough to prove that he is, but then again, there isn't really much to prove that he isn't. And it affords us some great fanfic opportunities.

ChickenLickinGood
05-06-2002, 12:13 AM
I don't think the guy was Zack, because Zack was turned into a leaky peice of meat due to those Shinra soilders. I don't see how Zack could possibly of survived that.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-06-2002, 12:46 AM
He took a hit from sephiroth (which tossed him out of the room and way the hell down the stairs), so what's to say he couldn't survive a few bullets? You see people get shot in battle and stay standing. They'd shot Zack earlier, then he went and you heard fighting, then he came back, and got shot again. He was injured, definitely. But it's possible that he stayed alive.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-06-2002, 04:10 AM
Um.

Zack didn't just "take a few bullets." He was caught by surprise with the first spurt and fell. Then one soldier walked up to his body and quite literally filled it with lead. Zack died.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-06-2002, 06:49 AM
once again, Zack isn't any ordinary human. He easily survived a hit from sephiroth, and had MORE jenova cells added to him afterward. If jenova cells can bring Vincent back to life, it's conceivable that they kept Zack alive, but unconscious. Afterall, they didn't even bother to check if he was dead. They sure as hell didn't check cloud.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-06-2002, 03:43 PM
I'm adding a spoiler warning to the title of this thread, so every post doesn't need to be invisible.

Jenova cells didn't bring Vincent back to life. He was only shot once, and we don't know where exactly, or whether or not it was a fatal wound or not. Furthermore, I doubt that he had any Jenova injected into him, because he was not drawn toward the Northern Cave during Reunion. If Cloud & co. had not disturbed his rest, he probably never would have awoken.

Koi Lung Fish
05-06-2002, 07:36 PM
Vincent notwithstanding, Zack's as dead as a doornail. He wasn't just shot. He recieved a ten-second sustained burst from an automatic machine gun at point-blank range.

That's not shot.
That's mincemeat.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-06-2002, 09:13 PM
Vinnie obviously has Jenova cells in him. A helluva lot, too. That's what triggers his limit break transformations. And if he just sat there "sleeping" in a coffin for all of Sephiroth's lifetime, but doesn't look like an old man, it's obvious that he was either dead, or constantly reconstructed by the jenova cells in him. If they can keep that guy unchanged for that long, they sure as hell can reconstruct Zack after he's taken several bullets damage. Remember, he hasn't completely recovered when you see him. he's still got a very similar syndrome to that which cloud had after the mako poisoning. That could be due to the intense amount of jenova activity in his body trying to repair him, which likely could have been going on within Cloud when he got "mako poisoning". As for Vincent not being called to the reunion, he WAS called. When Cloud first tells him their whole story with sephiroth, vincent just wants to go back to sleep, and says something along the lines of "more nightmares will come to me now". And according to him, he deserves the nightmares. But when they leave the basement, he just goes and joins them without gathering any information further than what they'd already told him. His motives for changing his mind weren't made clear, at least not that I remember. So it's quite possible that the Jenova cells in him subconsciously made him join them.

Mookie37
05-07-2002, 12:52 AM
That does makes sense, and it serves to cover why Vinney decided to join the party with seemingly little explination, if any.

Dak Rey
05-09-2002, 10:41 PM
that bloke in the pipe cant be zack or aeris would recognise him

Efli
05-10-2002, 03:40 AM
Please, remember, Zack took a burst from an automatic machine gun, in the head, at point blank range. That means that his head is splattered across that cliff near Midgar.

If Jenova cells can't rebuild Vincent's arm, they sure as hell can't rebuild Zacks brain and head. Even if you disregard Vincent, Jenny couldn't rebuild her own head, so I doubt the Jenova cells in Zack could.

Koi Lung Fish
05-10-2002, 10:39 PM
Furthermore, Hojo's notes indicated Zack had little or no response to the Jenova cells, as opposed to Cloud who had a strong reaction to the Jenova. Vincent really is irrelevant in this discussion; we simply have no idea what was done to him, and cannot consdier him a model for the standard Jenova infectee, considering the presence of third-party genetic strands in his nucleii.

Shoeberto
05-11-2002, 03:23 AM
<font color="#009999">
Dak Rey has a point. If you went there with Aeris, she would have recognized him.

Somebody in the streets of the slums says that he's horribly sick (or something like that).

I always thought it was a fetch quest that Square ripped out, and just left the character there.

Sakura Yume
05-12-2002, 07:14 AM
<font color=#AFEEEE>The "bloke" was one of the people that later attended the Jenova Reunion. Just go with that, it's not as confusing.

Koi Lung Fish
05-12-2002, 10:38 AM
That's right. He's the first clone to appear.

Nemesis the Warlock
05-13-2002, 11:06 AM
*Agrees*
There is no way it could be Zack. Not only because I think he is as dead as a desert night. If they really had revived him with Jenova cells, then

Please, remember, Zack took a burst from an automatic machine gun, in the head, at point blank range. That means that his head is splattered across that cliff near Midgar.
and the bloke in the pipe definitely has a head. Barrett would have pointed it out otherwise.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-13-2002, 04:39 PM
with ff7's blocky graphics, that could have been Zack's chest he was shot in. Which would mean his lungs and ribcage are nothing but a jumbled mass of red pulp, but that's easier for Jenova cells to fix than something so complex as a head. Vincent's arm wasn't fixed because it wasn't supposed to be. Vincent was shot and killed. Where in there does he lose his arm? He was given synthetic parts as well as Jenova cells. We can infer that he had Jenova cells in him not just by his limit breaks, but because we know Hojo is obsessed with Jenova cell research.

Zack did have a bit less of a reaction to the Jenova cells than cloud did, but that's because he's stronger, and his body was able to handle it. He still has them, and they still work. They just don't take him over and control him like they do to cloud.

Koi Lung Fish
05-13-2002, 08:28 PM
Let me get this straight: you think Zack sat in front of his ex-best-friend and his ex-girlfriend, and NEITHER of them recognised him?

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-13-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Zack did have a bit less of a reaction to the Jenova cells than cloud did, but that's because he's stronger, and his body was able to handle it. He still has them, and they still work. They just don't take him over and control him like they do to cloud. Zack didn't have "a bit less of a reaction" than Cloud. According to Hojo's notes, he had <i>no reaction at all</i>.

abrojtm
05-13-2002, 11:31 PM
If Jenova cells restore your body so well, then how come Jenova herself was (not really that hard) defeated when she could just be constantly restoring all of her organs and body parts-if cells could bring someone back to life-then woudln't the actually body be simply immunne to just about everythign, yet you defeat Jenova like 5 times....

The One Winged Angel
05-13-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
Zack didn't have "a bit less of a reaction" than Cloud. According to Hojo's notes, he had <i>no reaction at all</i>.

where d'you find that out?..

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-13-2002, 11:57 PM
Search for Hojo's notes in the back room of the study beneath Shinra Mansion. Cloud and Zack are referred to as "specimens" and not by their names, but you can tell which is which by Hojo's comments.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-14-2002, 01:16 AM
Zack isn't taken over by them the way cloud is. But they're still in there, and still capable of repairing him. To the guy who has really bad grammar and made his post one long run on sentence, the reparation process isn't instantaneous. If the body is completely obliterated, there's not much they can do. Jenova can obviously build, because you can see the monster that's created from just her ARM. As for why they didn't recognize him, remember it's been a long time. He's been scarred by both sephy's sword and the bullets in his chest, a lot of reconstruction went on. His build would have easily shifted, and his face mutated by the Jenova.

Nemesis the Warlock
05-14-2002, 12:15 PM
One of the people standing around the pipe, or someone in the party would have made a remark about that, I think. I never got the idea that the bloke in the pipe was meant to look mutated, with a shifted figure and an alien head. The only remarkable thing about him was his very limited vocabulary and the fact that noone knew him.
The trophies might be from the Golden Saucer, or perhaps they are the loot from the war in Wutai. That man is not Zack.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-14-2002, 06:15 PM
I didn't mean that drastically mutated. He would still look human. But more like a different human.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-14-2002, 06:32 PM
With no disrespect, sir, <i>listen</i> to the theories you're coming up with. You're reaching an awful lot.

If the sick man was Zack, the script would have included <i>some</i> substantial hint of it, like having Aeris say that he reminds her of someone, or <i>something</i>.

Dak Rey
05-14-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Zack did have a bit less of a reaction to the Jenova cells than cloud did, but that's because he's stronger, and his body was able to handle it. He still has them, and they still work. They just don't take him over and control him like they do to cloud.

so if he was able to handle and control them, where did he go? he wouldn't have gone to the reunion becuase he could hav resisted

Koi Lung Fish
05-14-2002, 07:41 PM
He DID got to the Reunion - that's why he wasn't there later.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-15-2002, 12:42 AM
Dak, he can resist them to an extent. He was called to the reunion just as cloud was, but he wasn't able to be hypnotized the way cloud was when he nearly killed aeris, or when he gave sephy the black materia.

And Kishi, read my first post in this topic. I said myself there isn't enough evidence to call it true. But it is possible. That's what I'm pointing out here.

frankbianca
05-15-2002, 05:05 AM
its kinda funny that zack couldnt possibly survive a bunch of bullets when other characters have survived far worse attacks.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-15-2002, 06:40 AM
You see, frank gets it. I don't see why the rest of you can't.

frankbianca
05-15-2002, 06:45 AM
yup, i get it. cloud got a HUGE SWORD jabbed thru his chest. He then proceeded to LIFT sephiroth in the air, shake him side to side, and throw him over the edge of the rail. Tifa got slashed by sephi's sword and fell down the steps, probably hitting her head loads of times. CRAZY stuff.

One more thing. Were sephiroth's hands superglued to the sword or something????

HOOTERS
05-15-2002, 07:03 AM
Yes.

Dak Rey
05-15-2002, 09:33 AM
look, aeris gets stabbed and dies. zack gets shot, and dies. if a single stab can kill aeris, then multiple shots from a gun will definately kill zack, jenova cells or not. where in the game does it say that jenova cells can repair lost head anyway? or even limbs for that matter, all that ever appens is the human recovery process, not some special jenova stuff. jenova just makes them harder to kill.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-15-2002, 06:26 PM
Dak, read the whole topic before you post. Cloud was also stabbed. It's not easy to determine whether they shot zack in the head or chest, as ff7 has such blocky graphics. Vincent was brought back to life with Jenova research. Yadda yadda yadda.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-15-2002, 06:50 PM
People like Aeris and Zack die of realistic causes because battle logic simply does not carry over into <a href="http://www.rpgworldcomic.com/d/20020313.html">cutscenes</a>. That's why Tidus in FFX can run down a walkway fighting soldiers and getting sprayed in the face with bullets without a scratch to show for it, then be stopped in his tracks as the scene enters a cutscene and guns are held to his face.

Cloud didn't die when he was stabbed with Masamune because that whole scene was set up to demonstrate how incredibly stronger Cloud is than Sephiroth. Plus, he's The Hero™.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-15-2002, 06:55 PM
But cloud is still weak. Weaker than Zack. All he had working for him there was adrenaline, and that won't keep you alive. It just helps you ignore wounds. So if Zack is stronger and tougher than cloud, which he obviously is, he could have survived the bullets to the chest.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-15-2002, 07:06 PM
How do you figure Zack is so much stronger than Cloud? Sephiroth beat him <i>badly</i>, and the only reason he wasn't out of it like Cloud during the trip to Midgar was because the Jenova cells didn't have any effect on him. You could argue that they had no effect because Zack is so strong, but then why did Sephiroth, who <i>was</i> affected, beat him like he did?

Furthermore, Cloud wasn't running on adrenaline, at least not entirely. We went through most of the game thinking of Sephiroth as some unbeatable god, and that flashback served to finally make the revelation that Sephiroth was in fact a wimp compared to Cloud.

Koi Lung Fish
05-15-2002, 08:08 PM
Well, given that Zack was liberally riddled with bullets in the abdomen, whilst Cloud was stabbed in the shoulder ... Wolfwood, what *are* you on about?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-16-2002, 12:58 AM
Cloud says himself, he didn't make it into SOLDIER because he was weak. He says that. Directly. Right after he rejoins the team after mideel. And he wasn't stabbed in the shoulder, he was stabbed in the gut. Since Cloud never made it into SOLDIER for being too weak, yet Zack made it in, it's an easy inference that Zack is stronger. When Cloud stabbed Sephi, he caught him off guard. And that whole time, he WAS runninng on adrenaline. "Mother.....Tifa....my town....give it BACK". Not too difficult to assume that he's really, REALLY pissed off. Zack was at that town for his first time, and couldn't really care about it. So he didn't have that same adrenaline rush working for him.

radyk05
05-16-2002, 04:56 AM
you're saying in oder words that zack is some kind of super-hero. just let him die already!! :D

just asking, does any of this have anything to do with what cloud says (i belive it is in the highwind) "i feel we are forgeting something (or someone, i don't remember)"?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-16-2002, 06:32 PM
I don't remember that happening, but I doubt any relation to zack in that phrase.

Dak Rey
05-16-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by radyk05
just asking, does any of this have anything to do with what cloud says (i belive it is in the highwind) "i feel we are forgeting something (or someone, i don't remember)"?

this wasnt on the highwind, it was in junon after the cannon has been moved and cloud is just saying that it is missing, he just cant put his finger on it.

the first time i played tho, i didnt notice, i just checked all my materia again since yuffie was in my party and i thought she had stolen it. i only realised myself the econd time through

radyk05
05-17-2002, 12:33 AM
i believed that he was refering to vincent (the first time i got there he wasn't on my party) but i got there with vincent and he cloud says that again...
if any of you know what is he talking about, haganme el favor (do me the favor) to tell me (and the others, obviously)

Sephex
05-17-2002, 07:42 AM
HOW DID THIS THREAD GET THIS FAR?!

When you think about it...does it realy matter? NO! It is not that important! I respect all of your interests and discusions about this game but REALLY THINK about what you are debating about!

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-17-2002, 07:57 AM
Once again, I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying it's possible, therefore could be used for fanfic opportunities. If they find error in that which I can't cast aside, they're quite welcome to tell me about it.

Grimaldos
05-17-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by radyk05
i believed that he was refering to vincent (the first time i got there he wasn't on my party) but i got there with vincent and he cloud says that again...
if any of you know what is he talking about, haganme el favor (do me the favor) to tell me (and the others, obviously)
Dark Rey told you, he was referring to the missing cannon in Junon

Dak Rey
05-17-2002, 08:12 PM
thats Dak Rey, Grimaldos.

Nakor TheBlue Rider
05-17-2002, 08:34 PM
radyk05:
"i feel we are forgeting something (or someone, i don't remember)"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

He Says "Someone".......

I always thought this refered to Aries......And I still Do!!

Koi Lung Fish
05-17-2002, 09:04 PM
Something. Not someone. Something.

Linus
05-17-2002, 11:50 PM
I give this discussion an "A" for members randomly pulling points out of their asses and making it look like steak dinner. Good job Kish, Wolfwood, and everyone else involved.

My two cents is that in theory, the man in the pipe could be one of the men in black cloaks in Nibelheim. Cloud doesn't read ALL of their numbers, so one of them could very well be #1.

Dr. Disco
05-18-2002, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
once again, Zack isn't any ordinary human. He easily survived a hit from sephiroth,

I wouldn't say he "easily" did anything. After being thrown back about 50 feet into the ceiling, which he bounced off, he can barely speak to Cloud.


Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Vinnie obviously has Jenova cells in him.

If by "obviously" you mean "its conceivable, sort of" then yes, its quite obvious. At no point does it say he was, in fact, injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did something to him, but it never even mentions Jenova. In fact, if you just decide not to go into his room, he'll never do anything involving the Reunion or anything else for that matter. He'll just lay there sleepin' away.


A helluva lot, too. That's what triggers his limit break transformations.

When do any of the other Jenova infectees turn into crazy monsters? I didn't see any clones, or SOLDIERs, or anyone do that. Well, Hojo turned into something, but it was more of a mutation(I don't think he would've turned back after melding with those two monsters, which is the only time he transformed in the first place).


And if he just sat there "sleeping" in a coffin for all of Sephiroth's lifetime, but doesn't look like an old man, it's obvious that he was either dead, or constantly reconstructed by the jenova cells in him.

I'm gonna go with "he doesn't age because Hojo injected him with God knows what".


If they can keep that guy unchanged for that long, they sure as hell can reconstruct Zack after he's taken several bullets damage.

Vincent was shot ONCE, by a PISTOL. Zack was shot over in over in the torso(or maybe even the head) by a machine gun, at point blank range.


Remember, he hasn't completely recovered when you see him.

He must be so damaged that his own girlfriend doesn't recognize him. Wow.


he's still got a very similar syndrome to that which cloud had after the mako poisoning. That could be due to the intense amount of jenova activity in his body trying to repair him, which likely could have been going on within Cloud when he got "mako poisoning". As for Vincent not being called to the reunion, he WAS called. When Cloud first tells him their whole story with sephiroth, vincent just wants to go back to sleep, and says something along the lines of "more nightmares will come to me now". And according to him, he deserves the nightmares. But when they leave the basement, he just goes and joins them without gathering any information further than what they'd already told him. His motives for changing his mind weren't made clear, at least not that I remember. So it's quite possible that the Jenova cells in him subconsciously made him join them.

The group mentions Sephiroth, who Vincent knows is the son of Hojo. You know, Hojo. The guy who injected Vincent's love with Jenova, completely destroyed her body, then shot Vincent and turned him into a freak.


Originally posted by Nemesis the Warlock
and the bloke in the pipe definitely has a head. Barrett would have pointed it out otherwise.

This isn't revelant to the issue, but I'd just like to say that was fuggin' hilarious.

But anyway, yes, I guess we could assume the man is Zack...if Zack became a Jenova clone somehow, and his face was drastically altered through the apparent super healing powers the Jenova cells gave him and none of the other clones, and they decided to let him live but give his living existence no relevance to any of the entire game beyond that. So, yes, Zack may be the man in the pipe. Cloud could also secretly be Sephiroth's half-brother. Except it wouldn't be relevant to the plot in any way at all(Considering its never brought up, much like this Zack theory), so its NOT LIKELY.

abrojtm
05-18-2002, 08:49 PM
Thank you Dr. Disco, thank you...thank you.
Also (as I said not very clearly in an earlier post) if Jenova cells can heal all of Zack's vital organs. Then how come an entire body made solely of Jenova cells is relatively weak. When it's destroyed, it doesn't rebuild its body, does it?

Koi Lung Fish
05-18-2002, 09:33 PM
Perhaps more to the point, if Sephiroth, who had the most Jenova in him of all, needed five years in the mako-crystals of North Crater to rebuild his body - and *still* hadn't finished his legs even then - after falling into the Nibelheim pit, then how come Zack - theoretically assuming he was the man in the pipe, like hell - could rebuild himself so quickly and so well, and yet not get recognised by Aeris?

Linus
05-19-2002, 01:13 AM
Disco, I laughed out loud at the Barret comment too. I don't usually laugh at stuff on the internet.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-20-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Disco


I wouldn't say he "easily" did anything. After being thrown back about 50 feet into the ceiling, which he bounced off, he can barely speak to Cloud.

It sure seemed easy enough for him to bust out of the jenova tube and kill the scientist guy, then drag cloud out, didn't it?




If by "obviously" you mean "its conceivable, sort of" then yes, its quite obvious. At no point does it say he was, in fact, injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did something to him, but it never even mentions Jenova. In fact, if you just decide not to go into his room, he'll never do anything involving the Reunion or anything else for that matter. He'll just lay there sleepin' away.

It's obvious because Hojo said he "brought him back", in that letter he left, and because we all know that Hojo is totally and utterly obsessed with Jenova research. As for Vincent in the reunion, it's possible that the Jenova made him move in his sleep toward the northern crater, and your party never sees him.




When do any of the other Jenova infectees turn into crazy monsters? I didn't see any clones, or SOLDIERs, or anyone do that. Well, Hojo turned into something, but it was more of a mutation(I don't think he would've turned back after melding with those two monsters, which is the only time he transformed in the first place).

Hojo was one, the Jenova arms were others. The ones that become Jenova birth, Jenova life, Jenova death, and Jenova Synthesis. Therefore, we can say that it must take a lot of Jenova cells to turn into a monster.




I'm gonna go with "he doesn't age because Hojo injected him with God knows what".

And "god knows what" can be assumed as Jenova.




Vincent was shot ONCE, by a PISTOL. Zack was shot over in over in the torso(or maybe even the head) by a machine gun, at point blank range.

Vincent was DEAD though. Jenova brought him back to life, restoring what was damaged by that one bullet. And like I said, Zack wasn't completely recovered. He took a lot more wounds, so it took a lot longer to heal.




He must be so damaged that his own girlfriend doesn't recognize him. Wow.

Yes, actually. I further explained that earlier in the topic, go read it.




The group mentions Sephiroth, who Vincent knows is the son of Hojo. You know, Hojo. The guy who injected Vincent's love with Jenova, completely destroyed her body, then shot Vincent and turned him into a freak.

Vincent doesn't know Hojo is Sephiroth's daddie till the end of the second disc. Take him with you when you raid the SHINRA building, you'll see what I mean when you fight Hojo. Vincent was asleep suffering Nightmares because he thought HE himself was Sephiroth's father, and was feeling guilt for having his own son become some genetics experiment. And even if you were right, it doesn't change the fact that Vincent makes up his mind when you first talk to him, then changes it when you leave.





But anyway, yes, I guess we could assume the man is Zack...if Zack became a Jenova clone somehow, and his face was drastically altered through the apparent super healing powers the Jenova cells gave him and none of the other clones, and they decided to let him live but give his living existence no relevance to any of the entire game beyond that. So, yes, Zack may be the man in the pipe. Cloud could also secretly be Sephiroth's half-brother. Except it wouldn't be relevant to the plot in any way at all(Considering its never brought up, much like this Zack theory), so its NOT LIKELY.

You really haven't paid attention, have you? I said it plenty of times, I'll say it again. I'm not here saying that he IS. I'm saying that it's possible. That there's no proof saying he isn't. I know it holds no relevance to the plot, and only would come in handy for fanfic ops, but it's possible.

Faux
05-20-2002, 05:54 AM
Man those are some huge posts!

Dr. Disco
05-20-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It sure seemed easy enough for him to bust out of the jenova tube and kill the scientist guy, then drag cloud out, didn't it?

Considering this was five years later, and the Jenova cells had no effect on him anyway, yup, I guess you got me there.


It's obvious because Hojo said he "brought him back", in that letter he left, and because we all know that Hojo is totally and utterly obsessed with Jenova research. As for Vincent in the reunion, it's possible that the Jenova made him move in his sleep toward the northern crater, and your party never sees him.

I'm no pediatrician, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? You can still get Vincent on Disc 3.



Hojo was one, the Jenova arms were others. The ones that become Jenova birth, Jenova life, Jenova death, and Jenova Synthesis. Therefore, we can say that it must take a lot of Jenova cells to turn into a monster.

1)The Jenova cells didn't turn into random horror movie monsters, they turned into Jenova monsters. Their actual genetics didn't change, it was more like they grew into the Jenova battles. Oh, and I believe Jenova Synthesis was the real Jenova.
2)Combining with those other two monsters is what got Hojo on his way to mutation.


And "god knows what" can be assumed as Jenova.

You know what they say about assuming!


Vincent was DEAD though. Jenova brought him back to life, restoring what was damaged by that one bullet. And like I said, Zack wasn't completely recovered. He took a lot more wounds, so it took a lot longer to heal.

Could you tell me, exactly, where it says Vincent actually died? Here's a little help to get you on your way:IT DOESN'T.


Yes, actually. I further explained that earlier in the topic, go read it.

Blah.


Vincent doesn't know Hojo is Sephiroth's daddie till the end of the second disc. Take him with you when you raid the SHINRA building, you'll see what I mean when you fight Hojo. Vincent was asleep suffering Nightmares because he thought HE himself was Sephiroth's father, and was feeling guilt for having his own son become some genetics experiment. And even if you were right, it doesn't change the fact that Vincent makes up his mind when you first talk to him, then changes it when you leave.

That's fair, but keep in mind Hojo still destroyed Lucrecia's life. That would be enough incentive to join Cloud and go after him.


You really haven't paid attention, have you? I said it plenty of times, I'll say it again. I'm not here saying that he IS. I'm saying that it's possible. That there's no proof saying he isn't. I know it holds no relevance to the plot, and only would come in handy for fanfic ops, but it's possible.

Its possible in the sense that Barret is really the Lord Jesus Christ that got lost in a dimensional warp to go fight the ShinRa in Final Fantasy VII. It doesn't say it in the game, and you never know, but it'd be pretty stupid if he was.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-20-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Disco


Considering this was five years later, and the Jenova cells had no effect on him anyway, yup, I guess you got me there.

no, it wasn't five years later. Do you think they instantaneously teleported to midgar from nibelheim? No, it took them awhile to get there. And in any case, he still survived.




I'm no pediatrician, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? You can still get Vincent on Disc 3.

Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.





1)The Jenova cells didn't turn into random horror movie monsters, they turned into Jenova monsters. Their actual genetics didn't change, it was more like they grew into the Jenova battles. Oh, and I believe Jenova Synthesis was the real Jenova.
2)Combining with those other two monsters is what got Hojo on his way to mutation.

they still grew. And none of them looked like the Jenova that you see in shinra, or at nibelheim.




Could you tell me, exactly, where it says Vincent actually died? Here's a little help to get you on your way:IT DOESN'T.

I'm pretty sure that in the letter hojo leaves, he says that he "brought him back". Back from what? Mexico?




Blah.

Agreed.




That's fair, but keep in mind Hojo still destroyed Lucrecia's life. That would be enough incentive to join Cloud and go after him.

But vincent didn't blame hojo. He blamed himself. That's why he was sleeping. If he wanted to kill hojo, he could have done that right when hojo finished the job on him.




Its possible in the sense that Barret is really the Lord Jesus Christ that got lost in a dimensional warp to go fight the ShinRa in Final Fantasy VII. It doesn't say it in the game, and you never know, but it'd be pretty stupid if he was.

It's a long shot, but could make sense. That's all I'm saying. Once again, defending the theory for fanfic purposes.

Koi Lung Fish
05-20-2002, 08:24 PM
It DOESN'T say "brought him back"; it says "scientifically altered him and put him to sleep." Now, I suspect it may say scientifically in one version and genetically in another, but nowhere in the Hojo's letter does he refer to bringing Vincent back from anywhere.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-20-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.Watch the scene in the Whirlwind Maze again, the one in which all the Jenova-riddled cloaked men are marching toward the site of the Reunion. Sephiroth (in appearance, at least) eventually encounters them, and then what does he do? He slaughters them, <i>all</I> of them. I somehow don't see Vincent walking back from that.

abrojtm
05-20-2002, 11:25 PM
Speaking of the men at the Reunion, they were also injected with Jenova cells but they got killed with a single slash. I think that one bullet to Zack's head would kill him enough and I didn't quite see too many (none) of the black cloaked people get up from that slash.

Dr. Disco
05-21-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
no, it wasn't five years later. Do you think they instantaneously teleported to midgar from nibelheim? No, it took them awhile to get there. And in any case, he still survived.

Umm, I'm pretty sure they spent five years in the ShinRa Mansion. I mean, it might've taken a kind of long while to get to Nibelheim from there, but it can't have been that long, since they even hitched a ride at least once.
I mean, hell, FFVII itself doesn't happen over a course of years, and your party goes from end to end of the globe, several times.


Yeah, I know. If he can walk to the reunion, he can wake up and walk back, ya know.

What kishi said.


they still grew. And none of them looked like the Jenova that you see in shinra, or at nibelheim.

Actually, they did. Same tentacle-ish structures sprouting from the shoulders, same fat bottom-half, same breasts.


I'm pretty sure that in the letter hojo leaves, he says that he "brought him back". Back from what? Mexico?

What lungy said.


Agreed.

A woman made entirely out of pie?


But vincent didn't blame hojo. He blamed himself. That's why he was sleeping. If he wanted to kill hojo, he could have done that right when hojo finished the job on him.

True, but he still hated Hojo.


It's a long shot, but could make sense. That's all I'm saying. Once again, defending the theory for fanfic purposes.

Not just a long shot, a really big fuggin' long shot.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-21-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Disco


Umm, I'm pretty sure they spent five years in the ShinRa Mansion. I mean, it might've taken a kind of long while to get to Nibelheim from there, but it can't have been that long, since they even hitched a ride at least once.
I mean, hell, FFVII itself doesn't happen over a course of years, and your party goes from end to end of the globe, several times.

It normally would have taken them a great deal of months to do that. They're just not gonna show all that in the game, because they want it to progress a bit faster, thus cloud makes it 100 miles in a single step. At the speed that truck was going, it would have taken them all day to get from gongaga to cosmo canyon.




What kishi said.[/B]

Vincent would have fallen back from the others. They were roaming freely around not just nibelheim, but the whole world. Vincent was in a coffin in a locked basement room.




Actually, they did. Same tentacle-ish structures sprouting from the shoulders, same fat bottom-half, same breasts.

That's odd, I could have sworn they were a helluva lot bigger than the Jenova Sephiroth removed from nibelheim.




What lungy said.

Well, then maybe he wasn't dead. That I'll admit. It's been awhile since I played that part....but there's a possibility that he died. And though everything I'm explaining in my posts is a longshot, it's still possible.




A woman made entirely out of pie?

Only apple pie.




True, but he still hated Hojo.

But he already knew of Hojo. Something else made him change his mind when you left the basement.




Not just a long shot, a really big fuggin' long shot.

And still holding that small window where the light of possibility can shine through......

Dr. Disco
05-21-2002, 01:46 AM
Well, this debate has gone just about as far as it can...there's an extremely, extremely slim chance Vincent was a Sephiroth clone and Zack survived(Read:No and no), which could be used for fan fiction, but, yeah. If we were to continue, it'd go like this:
Me:"So, Zack was shot repeatedly in the face with a machine gun but survived because of his Jenova healing powers, and was also a Sephiroth clone for some reason. Also, Vincent was a Sephiroth clone who headed towards the Reunion but didn't make it then went back(And apparently re-locked the door and put the key back in the safe with the monster)."

You:"Hey, it could've happened!"

...Wait, I just realized how insane your entire theory sounds. No, there is no way that man is Zack. If it was, why would he have the number tattoo? Cloud didn't get one, now did he?

I guess this debate ISN'T over, so
<B><<B></b>Image edited by Kishi, for the sake of the children.><b></b></b>

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-21-2002, 06:18 AM
just where did I say anybody was a sephiroth clone? I said they had Jenova cells. That doesn't mean anybody with Jenova cells is a sephiroth clone. Zack had a number, yes. So did Nanaki, in case you hadn't noticed. Nor did I say Vincent "never made it" to the reunion, though it is a more plausible theory that he tried, but couldn't get past the locked door. I originally meant that he made it there after your party already passed through. But hey, I'll stick with whatever's simpler to explain. So once again, it's possible. Possible. I didn't say it's the truth, or that it holds relevance to the game, or even that it was probable. I was saying that through certain explanation and assumption, it's possible. Let's leave it at that. Unless you have more misunderstandings and questions that you're going to try and throw into it.

Koi Lung Fish
05-21-2002, 07:31 PM
Wolfwood & Dr Disco:

1) If Zack was treated with the same Jenova/Mako mix that was used on Cloud and the Clones, he was a Clone, even if he had no reaction: he'd had the same treatments.

2) Vincent was NOT a clone: whatever was done to him was done thirty-ish years before Hojo did the clones.

3) Zack did not have a number; like Cloud.

4) A locked door, stopping Vincent? The same guy who can, oh, turn into ferocious monsters and toss a solid metal coffin lid across a room with his mind? Like hell. And if he got out, how did he manage to relock the door when he'd put the key back in the safe?

5) Vincent's status as live or dead is questionable: he's been in a coffin for thirty years, no water, possibly even no air. Metabolically speaking, he must be dead. Whether or not Hojo shooting him was the cause of his death is highly debatable.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-22-2002, 01:08 AM
To what you said about vincent's limit break, he can only transform if his limit guage fills. In an empty room with no enemies, how exactly does that happen? His only way of getting out would be to shoot the door. If it's sturdy enough, that's not gonna do much.

abrojtm
05-22-2002, 01:11 AM
Actually, there are bats around there *shudders at pesky blood-suckin bats*

Koi Lung Fish
05-22-2002, 07:32 PM
Wolfwood, you do know that Vincent enters your party with a half-full limit metre, don't you?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-23-2002, 02:08 AM
exactly. If it were empty, that would mean that he's used the limit break recently, knocking down the door. Half full is how far he got it over the past several years, and it would take him several years to get it that high fighting bats.

Sephex
05-23-2002, 06:37 AM
All of this makes so much sense, did you know you can also revive Aeris?[sarcasm]

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-23-2002, 07:33 AM
It's possible. That's all I'm saying. For the fiftieth time in this topic....it appears that I have to say that at least every other post. But in any case, sephex, note that your sarcasm adds nothing to this debate. It makes no point. It proves nothing. All it is is an attempted mockery. We don't need it here. So until you find a way to make yourself useful, keep your mouth shut.

Sephex
05-23-2002, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible. That's all I'm saying. For the fiftieth time in this topic....it appears that I have to say that at least every other post. But in any case, sephex, note that your sarcasm adds nothing to this debate. It makes no point. It proves nothing. All it is is an attempted mockery. We don't need it here. So until you find a way to make yourself useful, keep your mouth shut.

Since no one listened to me on my initial post I decided to be more up front with it. Your attitude doesn't scare me by the way. I said before that I respect all of your opinions and I am glad and I think it is cool that you are interested into the game so deeply. I would be a hypocrite if I siad that I didn't get in any conversations such as this one. But everyone is going into circles about everything and finding the simplest things about a certain scene and REALLY streching them to suit their opinion of what happened.

I personaly find that really "useless" and it aslo "proves nothing". Does the fact that the guy in the pipe may be Zack or all the stuff about Vincent keep you up at night? Is it really that important? Instead of wondering something that isn't even that important to the game, why don't you just enjoy the game and accept the fac the other peoples opinions differ.

There is nothing wrong with debating, but how many times do you have to repeat yourself before it gets old?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-23-2002, 08:01 AM
opinion? no, no, no. This is not opinion. It's not important, but it's not opinion either. I'm pointing out that it's possible, though it doesn't have any relevance to the game. But every time I say it is possible, some idiot feels they have to step up to try and explain why it isn't possible. As little as it matters that I think it is possible, it doesn't matter any more that they think it isn't. And if they're going to criticize my statements and act like what I've said is ridiculous and impossible, just what in the blue moons of crangar do you expect me to do? Cower and apologize? Run away and give them the satisfaction of thinking they've defeated me? Sorry, if you people truly believe what you say about me, then you'll know I'm one proud, arrogant sonofa bitch. As long as people ridicule me, I'll step up to defend myself. You want to complain to somebody? Complain to them. It's not like I'm a violent predator here. And I only repeat myself when other peoples' questions and comments are repeated. You think I'm trying to scare you with my "attitude"? pfft. I know better than to think I can scare people with text on a screen. I think you know that. It's likely you just said that to try and assert yourself. Well I'll tell you right now, you're not shaking my confidence here either.

Nemesis the Warlock
05-23-2002, 11:19 AM
Does the fact that the guy in the pipe may be Zack or all the stuff about Vincent keep you up at night?
Apparently, it keeps up Nick Wolfy. Nick, what are you twisting your knickers for? Some people disagree with you, because the majority has read your posts carefully enough to know that your Zack-theory is impossible. Is that a reason to intimidate them, tell them to shut up and call them cretins? Actually, I doubt your right to tell people to shut up.
*Doesn't shut up*
See? Now what?
I am not trying to get personal, Nick. I am getting tired of interesting threads being closed down because of you, though. I was planning to reply to some of them...
:cry:

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-23-2002, 06:31 PM
because of me? No. People want to discuss why my Zack theory is impossible. I already know it's improbable, but it is possible, and I'll stay to defend that statement as long as is necessary. I only tell people to shut up if their posts are obvious spam that doesn't contribute anything. For example, what we've been doing the last five posts. Topics don't get closed down because of me. All I do is defend my opinions when they're attacked, for example, this topic. But then, people such as yourself and Sephex try to make things personal, and turn it into a "I hate Nick" thread. Basically, all you people give me is borderline flames just because you don't happen to agree with me. If you want to maturely debate it, that's fine with me. But ridiculing it and spitting on it isn't necessary. Nor is taking things completely off topic just to try and tell me what a horrible person I am, and how much you hate me. All I want to do is post my opinions without people immediately jumping on my ass for it. Why can't I ever get that? People seem to think I'm such a horrible guy, yet I don't quite get it. They're the ones who start things. I just defend myself, that's all. And I'd appreciate it if you people would just back off and stop making shit with me every time I post.

Koi Lung Fish
05-23-2002, 06:51 PM
Getting back to(wards) the topic:

About Vincent; his limit starts half-full, and he's not at that high a level. Plus he's on his Level 1 Limit; his limit meter would fill up after a few battles, not many, as you suggest. Besides, as I said, Vincent is capable of throwing a metal coffin lid around with his mind - what's a wooden door going to do against him?

About Zack; What, precisely, are you trying to say? That Zack *could* have survived, albeit looking so unlike himself and so mentally damaged as to be, practically speaking, someone else?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-23-2002, 07:04 PM
about vincent: His locked room was likely a bat free zone, until cloud let them all in. It's possible that upon revival, his limit guage filled that far from his anger at hojo. As for lifting the coffin lid, that isn't necessarily locked and bolted, is it?

Sephex
05-23-2002, 07:38 PM
[i] But then, people such as yourself and Sephex try to make things personal, and turn it into a "I hate Nick" thread. [/B]

THATS b*******. I stated MY opinion about EVERYONE needing to relax about certain things. Not only you. YOU chose to reply and YOU chose to take this personaly.

Once again. Using vulgar language and having some bad ass attitude doesn't scare anybody, so stop acting like a 13 year old.

And once again, I decided to be sarcastic becasue no one payed attention to my first post in here. IT IS MY OPINION of how I feel about certain things. It is on topic, because I am talking about how THIS TOPIC has gone to far, and people are streching facts very far just to suit thier own opinion. Thats my problem. I decided to post about this now because there has been like, 1000 topics like this that I want to talk in, but people start doing this thing where it goes to far, and it comes down to two people bitching at eachother. There is a HUGE difference between threads liek these and (rare)threads that people actualy debate in.

Koi Lung Fish
05-23-2002, 07:51 PM
Bats aside (this entire thread is bats) a solid metal coffin lid is both heavier and sturdier than a mouldering wooden door.

Dr. Disco
05-23-2002, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Nicholas D. Wolfwood
It's possible that upon revival, his limit guage filled that far from his anger at hojo.

You're reeeeaaaaally reaching here, nico.

The One Winged Angel
05-23-2002, 09:30 PM
hmm.. i'm incined to agree with nicos here.. i mean it isn't likely but from what u have said it is POSSIBLE.. i mean fine it's unlikely...

also it is quite likely that hoko anger is why he has limit at the start.. i mean what else is gonna annoy him?.. u saw how much he hates hojo and the past.. i mean he might b a lil miffed at being woken up.. tho IMO he shouldn't really i mean 30 yrs or wotever is quite enough.. but still he ain't gonna b THAT PO'd

abrojtm
05-23-2002, 11:32 PM
Come to think of it-Zack can't possibly be the bloke in the pipe.

All the Sephiroth clones have numbers tatooed on them and the bloke is number one.

Most of his handicaps (speech, physical) are because he was the frist clone.
He was the ginea(how da poo you spell it lol) pig and had some problems. Hojo just dumped him out of the ShinRa building at sector 5(?) and left him to go back to the ShinRa building to make a more perfect clone.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-24-2002, 01:04 AM
Sephex, you practically told us to discontinue the topic. Which I agree with, pretty much. But the way you did it wasn't so polite, and sure as hell made it look as if it were directed at me. Once again, my vulgar language and "badass attitude" aren't meant to scare people. How many more times am I gonna have to tell you that? As many times as I'm telling people that I'm only stating possibilities rather than facts? I really fail to see how telling people to stop their discussion is on topic....but in any case, you mentioned how people were taking small things and overstretching them. How unlikely everything in this topic is. Well, in case you hadn't noticed, those are the top arguments used against me. This place is to discuss the guy in the pipe. If you have a theory or opinion on that, go ahead and say it. Don't criticize other people for arguing.

Carp Lung Fish: The coffin lid is wood. Not metal. IF it were metal, it would be shinier, unless it were made of carbon, which is just ridiculous. Plus, the sound it makes when it lands is obviously wooden.

abrojtm: Actually, I believe the dude in the pipe has a 2 on his hand. And I don't remember any place in the game that it says Zack doesn't have a tattoo. So it's still a possibility.

abrojtm
05-24-2002, 02:07 AM
Yea, sorry it is a number 2- I was thinkin of the "Sephy" that goes through Corel that has a 1 (some guy in Corel says he wishes he had one and his would be a "0" cause thats all he's worth, made me sad) but that guy was a perfect clone (the one who killed Midgar Zolom) but we KNOW that Zack wasn't a clone because you meet his parents.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-24-2002, 04:26 AM
And we know that cloud isn't a clone since we meet Tifa. But does the number say he's a perfect clone? No.

Nemesis the Warlock
05-24-2002, 01:01 PM
Zack is not one of the clone thingies. They are inside of the metal containers in the Nibelheim reactor. Him and Sephiroth are standing outside those containers, looking in through the little glass window. Zack cannot be two people at once.

It does not mention anywhere in the game that Jenova can grow back lost heads.

And, regarding:

The coffin lid is wood. Not metal. IF it were metal, it would be shinier, unless it were made of carbon, which is just ridiculous.
Or unless it were made of cast iron, like a lot of coffins. Or copper, which oxidizes into some green stuff. Or unless the coffin had been lying there for a few years without dusting or polishing. Metal is not always shiny. On the other hand, pure carbon is definitely shiny.

You can't fill up someone's limit gauge by making him angry. Otherwise Barret could do limit breaks all the time...

Off topic: What part of
I am not trying to get personal, Nick. didn't I make clear? Don't be paranoid. If we would really hate you, would we communicate with you?

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-24-2002, 06:47 PM
I really doubt Red XIII was in those nibelheim containers. Those who were stayed in nibelheim after it was rebuilt. But he does, however, have a tattoo. We don't know that Zack doesn't have one.

Jenova most likely cannot grow back lost heads. Zack doesn't lose his head. Like I said, with the blocky graphics, it could also be interpreted that they shot him in the chest.

Okay, you have a point there. However, that doesn't explain the wooden sound of the coffin lid when it lands. And don't say it's the wall. That's made out of stone.

Maybe it was something else then. But since we know his limit guage isn't empty, we know his limit breaks weren't recently used.

If you're not making this personal, you sure coulda fooled me. That "I'm sick of topics being closed because of you".......hmm.....I can think of ONE topic that was closed that I was arguing in because the other guy flew off the handle and started flaming. Not personal? Why are you complaining about me, and only me then?

Koi Lung Fish
05-24-2002, 08:19 PM
Err, since when did wood go "clang"? Vincent's coffin makes a very audible metal-on-metal noise when it shuts. Not to mention that the coffin is kinda shiny ... considering the light conditions, the materials and how long it's been since it was last polished.
Wood, last that long, in those conditions? Not a chance. That coffin is *metal*.

As for Zack ... Wolfwood, you're sticking to it and saying it's possible. We're sticking to it and say it isn't. That's it. Accept it: you will never convince everyone. I, for one, cannot see any way in which Zack could have become the pipe clone, and you're going to have to pull out something very special and heretofor hidden to change my mind in the slightest.

Dak Rey
05-24-2002, 11:52 PM
well, it is POSSIBLE. but i would say it was a 1/infinity chance. as far as im concerned, he died, but i will give it to you that it could be possible, just not likely, well hardly likely and near impossible, but possible, if you understand what im trying to say, anyway, i hope u r happy nick

Nicholas D. Wolfwood
05-25-2002, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Koi Lung Fish
Err, since when did wood go "clang"? Vincent's coffin makes a very audible metal-on-metal noise when it shuts. Not to mention that the coffin is kinda shiny ... considering the light conditions, the materials and how long it's been since it was last polished.
Wood, last that long, in those conditions? Not a chance. That coffin is *metal*.

As for Zack ... Wolfwood, you're sticking to it and saying it's possible. We're sticking to it and say it isn't. That's it. Accept it: you will never convince everyone. I, for one, cannot see any way in which Zack could have become the pipe clone, and you're going to have to pull out something very special and heretofor hidden to change my mind in the slightest.

I don't know what version of the game you're playing, but in mine, it clearly sounds like a hollow wooden "thunk". As for wood lasting that long, it's not like it's sitting out on the back patio. It's in a dry cellar. If those books can survive that long, a wooden coffin can, and supposing it were a moist environment in which wood wouldn't last, like you say, and the coffin were cast iron, wouldn't it rust? I can think of two metals that don't rust. Gold, and stainless steel. Neither of which are black. There may be some other rust resistant metal that I don't know about, I mean, I failed chemistry, but I can assure you that iron would rust.

about Zack: Okay. You don't think it's possible, even after what I've given you, and I do think it's possible, even after what I've given you. But neither of us is right, and neither of us is wrong. However, many of you appear to be acting as if I'm wrong just because my thoughts differ from yours. Note that on the first page of this topic, all I did was say that it's possible the guy in the pipe was zack, and immediately other people said there was no way in hell he was. Thus, the debate started. Am I blaming you? No. But a lot of you seem to be blaming me.

Dr. Disco
05-25-2002, 08:05 AM
Guys, I never thought I'd say this, but JESUS CHRIST, let's just stop and think about what we're saying here.
No, I'm not talking about Zack here. That's practically been settled, and doesn't matter either way.

When the HELL did this Vincent thing come up anyway, and what in God's name has it degenerated to!? We've gone to arguing about Vincent being a Sephiroth clone to the goddamn material his coffin is made out of to the fucking sound it makes when it pops off.
This is like the Zack debate, only about 7000 times stupider. Vincent might've just continued sleeping if you hadn't disturbed him, or he might've woken up, gone to the Reunion, came back, and went back to sleep. Most people(Read:me) would say that idea is insane and retarded, but who the hell cares? If there's the slightest chance that it was possible than this debate will never have a right or wrong side, so everyone just STOP POSTING because neither side is going to budge. This is as useless a debate as the "Who is the Sephiroth you follow in Disk 1?" argument, because its never perfectly clear on what happened, and so no one can win.

Koi Lung Fish
05-25-2002, 12:48 PM
Funny, I seem to remember that debate being settled a few months ago ...

Dr. Disco
05-25-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Koi Lung Fish
Funny, I seem to remember that debate being settled a few months ago ...

Or was it?

Kawaii Ryűkishi
05-26-2002, 03:23 AM
I personally believe that this if the greatest debate ever. May it never, ever end.

Koi Lung Fish
05-26-2002, 03:20 PM
Sarcasm, from Kishi?

Dr Disco: You think otherwise? Well, you know where the "POst New Topic" button is.

Renzokuken
05-26-2002, 10:54 PM
:whoa:

Whoa!!!!!!!!

I remember thinking that I would properly only get 1 or 2 replys.
I come back to a full-scale war on the subject.

I think I've got the point now mind,

Thanks to everyone who made a contribution to it though.

Thanks

Haiwind
06-17-2002, 07:02 PM
I don't know if anyone pointed this out (I was scanning a bit quickly near the end...)

But the guy in the pipe has much darker skin than Zack.

And Zack was killed, because that's the method of storytelling. In stories like Final Fantasy, everything that happens has a meaning and a purpose. The guards shooting his so closely was to put across the point that he was really dead...

And he was recorded as so.

Cloud's sword holder
06-19-2002, 04:44 AM
I belive Wolf. First of all, he derserves some apretation for his bravery. Plus, if you go back to that bloke in the pipe, maybe if someone stared long and hard at him/her
you may just find out what he/she is saying.:whoa:

HOOTERS
06-19-2002, 02:46 PM
Ok, I'm going to finally reply to this thread now that things have cooled off a bit!

For ages I wondered what the significance guy in the pipe was but now that I've thought about it I reckon that he was just put there to introduce the tattoos which then keep popping up throughout the game to make you wonder what the hell they mean until you find out later. That's probably why Red XIII has one as well.

I think if it was Zack then squaresoft would give you a few more clues, I mean you could probably debate that Cid is Yuffie's grandmother if you looked hard enough and read into the game a little too far!

Enigma
06-19-2002, 03:21 PM
I think that it is Zack. cuz (SPOILER) in the game, they said that the man in the pipe wuz found near Midgar. Zack wuz shot near Midgar. The man had a number and so did Sephiroth. And since Cloud was a failure clone, he didnt get a number. Zack must have been a sucess and got a number. Remember he wuz saying "ooooooooo auuuuuuuuuug" well, Cloud made the same noise so maybe when Zack wuz shot he wuznt blasted to pieces, he wuz just shot in the chest and a scientist stumbled upon him, overdosed him wit mako or sumthin and no hes doin what Cloud did in Mideel.

or maybe it's just me. :)

Nemesis the Warlock
06-19-2002, 04:31 PM
Xmasta, you might have just proved that bloke is not Zack:
If he was found outside Midgar, it can't have been Zack. If I remember correctly, the grunts carried him off after they shot him. He was not left there, Cloud was (and I'm sure the bloke in the pipe is not Cloud).
And I don't think the sound "ooooooooo auuuuuuuuuug" helps to identify that person. ;) Besides, Zack doesn't make that sound (or any other sound) after he got pumped full of led. I believe Zack is dead, but I shouldn't say that too loud, before someone tells me how to revive him.
:D

Mookie37
06-19-2002, 06:21 PM
well, first ya gotta get Cloud in the right dress, the one that gets Coreno to pick him over Aeiris or Tifa. Then you have to enter X, SQUARE, TRIANGLE, TRAINGLE, TRAINGLE, TRAINGLE, O+X to make Cloud do the dance of the seven vails while singing row row your boat to a car wash!!
That will revive Zack. Yup *nods*:D

Koi Lung Fish
06-19-2002, 07:41 PM
Xmasta: Sephiroth did not have a tattoo.
Nemesis: The Shinra troops didn't carry Zack off, they left him where they shot him.

abrojtm
06-20-2002, 02:54 AM
Mookie37!!
How can I do that with a CPU ver?









(SARCASM)

Mookie37
06-20-2002, 05:51 AM
Th code for the CPU version is the same as the code for that version that makes Tifa run around naked and preform perverse sexual acts on the party member of your choice. If you don't know that code, well then you're just sad. Yup *nods*

Enigma
06-20-2002, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Nemesis the Warlock
Xmasta, you might have just proved that bloke is not Zack:
If he was found outside Midgar, it can't have been Zack. If I remember correctly, the grunts carried him off after they shot him. He was not left there, Cloud was (and I'm sure the bloke in the pipe is not Cloud).
And I don't think the sound "ooooooooo auuuuuuuuuug" helps to identify that person. ;) Besides, Zack doesn't make that sound (or any other sound) after he got pumped full of led. I believe Zack is dead, but I shouldn't say that too loud, before someone tells me how to revive him.
:D

it wuz just my opinion. They did not carry Zack away. and Zack didnt say "ooooooooo auuuuuuuuuug" when he wuz shot. the man in the pipe did.

theundeadhero
06-20-2002, 06:11 PM
I believe that Vincent has Jenova cells in him. At the "snowboarding city" watch the first home video. Ilfana says that when the crises from the sky first appeared (Jenova) it decieved the Cetra and gained their trust, then it gave them its Virus that turned some of them into "raging monsters". If Vincents limit breaks don't turn him into raging monsters than whatever.

Koi Lung Fish
06-20-2002, 08:00 PM
Ageless Fantasy: Uh, what does that have to do with the current topic?

floris
06-20-2002, 09:31 PM
but jenova has the power to rebuilt sertain genes
why can we beat her so easly
if her cells can heal wounds and body parts
why ,why can we beat her

i agree that vincent is infected with the jenova cells
( his limit breaks !! --> transformations, sef --> infected with jenova cells and he's also a kind of mutant)

Koi Lung Fish
06-21-2002, 08:09 PM
Floris: Obviously, such healing powers have their limits. Repairing a mako-saturated body damaged or killed by a fall yet still sustained by a powerful force of will is one thing; repairing a lead-riddled body lying in one of the most mako-deprived areas of the planet is entirely another.

edczxcvbnm
06-21-2002, 10:55 PM
You guys are not even on topic at all. SCREW THIS.

YOU CAN REVIVE AERIS IF YOU GET THE UNDERWATER MATERIA AND THE RAINBOW COLORED CHOCOBO!!!!!

abrojtm
06-21-2002, 11:38 PM
REALLY?!? HOW DO I GET THE RAINBOW CHOC??!


Seriously though, how does Jenova have any healing powers besides Cloud's trip through the lifestream...wait she didn't really even heal him, Tifa did.

Tom Morello
06-22-2002, 12:31 AM
I for one think...

a) the man in the pipe COULD be Zack

b) Vincent's coffin IS made of wood

c) Vincent DOES have Jenova cells

d) Jenova cells SLOWLY HEAL over extended periods of time, NOT two seconds and then you grow a new limb

e) There is NO CODE WHATSOEVER that revives Aeris, Zack or anyone else for that matter (NOT EVEN Cait Sith)

f) There isn't any rainbow chocobo, purple chocobo or red chocobo that you can possibly catch/breed

PhoenixAsh
06-22-2002, 12:53 AM
Okay first off I want to aplaud Nick for sticking up for himself on his own for so long. I don't know if he reads this still but I'd just like to say that as far as all the arguements have gone so far, he WAS in the right!!!
Maybe not about Zack, I'll go into that in a second, but he was saying that it was POSSIBLE, everyone who said it was impossible or almost impossible or nearly impossible is WRONG as far as arguements have been so far, their are enough valid arguements for it to be at least plausible enough for fanfic.
Anyway now onto the topic.

As far as the scientific arguements have gone there are three arguements that just don't hold so in final fantasy should be discounted.
First, Vincent wouldn't have been stopped by the door.
YES HE WOULD!!! This is final fantasy! A team who has taken on Shinra killed jenova's armoured killing machines and travelled all over the world CANNOT open the door without a key!!! So Vincent could very well have been called.

Second, Zack couldn't have survived the gunfire. YES HE COULD!!! Again this is final fantasy, people only die if they are meant to, nomatter what happens to them. Cloud, Squall, Vincent, Dyne, Ward, Kiros, Laguna, etc. all have survived surefire deaths. Zack was not certainly shot in the head, and even then he could still have survived.

Third Jenova can be killed easily, says who? Even if it doesn't revive itself, thats because you destroy it! You can't regenerate yourself if you have a starting point. If it's not destroyed, who says it doesn't revive. Maybe you don't see it, or maybe you do. Doesn't Synthesis suggest that the previous forms have joined, it doesn't really seem the logical step after Birth, Life, Death does it?

But thats just arguing against theories trying to disprove the possibility, I'm not saying the man in the pipe is Zack, or that Vincent was called, although I have to say Jenova cells do seem the most likely source of his powers and survival. It is plausible enough for a fanfic, and I believe that is how it was intended (open ended), or maybe as has been suggested, just as an early glimpse of the clones.

I'm sorry to all the people who think that this topic should be left, I am not argueing that I am right, merely that other people are not wrong.

Sephex
06-22-2002, 02:30 AM
You can revive Aeris.

This thread has gone to far, it is a dead debate.

EDIT: No, I don't believe that, it's just that this thread has been an eyesore for quite sometime. I thought we weren't allowed to revive threads anyway?

Zypher
06-22-2002, 02:52 AM
I agree with Sephex. Of course it's possible that the guy in the pipe is Zack. You could defend that position forever. What? Zack got shot in the head at point blank range? But it's possible that the Jesus Christ came down from heaven and healed Zack.

The point being, this debate is pointless. I mean, you're arguing about what sound the lid of a coffin makes when it hits the floor and how full Vincent's limit break was when you get him. End this already.

theundeadhero
06-22-2002, 10:55 PM
I just want to say that my post wasn't that off topic and that it did make since and add interesting facts to the argument. Can I get an apology?

petef0L
06-24-2002, 08:03 AM
oh my god... listen to yourselves! who cares if the guy in the pipe is zack. and how do you guys know what jenova cells can and cant do? you dont, you just base it off what you see, and how do you know the reason that vincents limit is half full? maybe the guys at square just wanted it to be that way. sure you can hypothesize or extrapolate or whatever you want, but your all trying to convince someone about something that you cant be 100% sure of. is it really that bad if someone thinks the guy is zack? maybe some of your information is based on facts, but unless theres concrete evidence then why are you trying to convince people that your right? maybe cloud or aeris didnt recognize the guy cause he was bandages up, or maybe mutated a bit, but of course you can tell do to the super detail of the character model. and the game came out what, 6 years ago? i can only imagine how much of a wad your panties got in when this topic was discussed for the first time way back then. and sorry if some of my information is wrong, i tend to only play a game once, enjoy it, and not try to disect every single aspect. so untill you can show me dna tests that prove that zack isnt the guy in the pipe, i say he is. better get on those dna test!!! oh wait, you can't, its a game

Maxico
06-24-2002, 10:29 AM
i would just like to but in and say that zack proberly could have healed himself if he was in midgar because at the beginning of the game barret says that underneath the plate is extreamly polluted. with what for me its obivously mako which is basicly final fantasys version of radiation (gammer rays not radio) now i havent been to final fantasy university and dont now the physics of mako energy or the genetic code of jenova cells but im thinking that jenova cells absorb mako energy. so when they found him they proberly found and mangled corpse but over time and mako radiation he healed

Koi Lung Fish
06-24-2002, 05:27 PM
Maxi: Pollution does not necessarily mean mako. It means mako byproducts, in the same way that consuming coal doesn't leave coal behind, it leaves coal byproducts. Zack actually has the worst chance of survival in Midgar precisely because of this; because the area has been extensively drained of mako, leaving it very low in Lifestream.

Tom Morello
06-27-2002, 09:08 PM
ZACK IS ALIVE!!! HE WAS MUTATED AND BECAME RED XIII!!!

DragonKnight
06-27-2002, 10:33 PM
How do you know this?

Doc Sark
06-27-2002, 11:40 PM
I love this thread, i couldnt be arsed to read it all coz it was very repetetive. Somewhere it was suggested that the dude in the pipe was part of a sub-quest square ripped out. I have read many times that it was supposed to be part of the "Revive Aeris" sub quest. Who knows? Who cares? He is just more pointless text fodder, one amongst hundreds.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
06-28-2002, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by edczxcvbnm
YOU CAN REVIVE AERISAs a rule, we don't allow threads containing rumors such as these to remain open, and so I will now have to carry out the most <i>dreadful</i> duty of closing this thread. What a <b><font color="red" size="5">BLOODY SHAME</b></font>