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thelynchpin
02-24-2003, 11:37 PM
Ok, I get the impression the Weapons were created by the planet, in order to protect itself.

So WHY is it, that, on Disc 3, do Emerald and Ruby Weapon, easily the 2 hardest creatures in the whole game, sit there and do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING apart from put up a half-decent fight if attacked?! Why aren't they attacking Sephiroth, or say, attacking Midgar which is sucking up so much Mako?

In fact, only one Weapon does anything like that. Diamond attacks Midgar, and, in particular, the Shinra HQ, which is of course the main benefactor in draining the Mako. Even then though, it seems as though Diamond protects Sephiroth.

And the only thing Ultimate does is to attack Mideel, the least disruptive human settlement on the planet.

I just find the behaviour of the Weapons realy strange. Anyone able to suggest reasons for what they do? Please?

FinalCloud
02-24-2003, 11:39 PM
well i would say that there just there to fight, thats my opinion

Rude
02-25-2003, 01:12 AM
Don't forget Sapphire who attacks Junon and gets demolished by the original Sister Ray.

Raistlin
02-25-2003, 04:06 AM
Well, I've always thought about it like this:

The Planet created the WEAPONs to be used in a crisis, however, the WEAPONs themselves have minds of their own, and aren't too bright. So, when summoned, they just kind of blunder around, and, unless the threat to the Planet pops up and kicks them in the arse, do little. I guess that the Planet would rather the WEAPONs kill all life than succumb to whatever threat is present. Diamond seemed to have a little more sense and attacked Midgar. Who knows why. Meh
As for Ultimate WEAPON, now that I think about it, isn't Ultimate sort of small? The others are huge, but Ultimate isn't really that big comparitively. Maybe he's younger, and attacked Mideel completely randomly. Maybe it's actually just one of those unexplained quirks in the game, and discussion about this subject is nigh useless.

Anyways, why make them so obviously...well, stupid? *shrugs* Maybe if they were too intelligent they could ban together and take over the world. I dunno. Ask the Planet.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
02-25-2003, 08:18 AM
Like Raistlin said, the purpose and instinct of the Weapons, once unleashed, is to kill of prettymuch everything on the Planet in order to give it a chance to start over again. So, just because there were no scenes specifically devoted to showing Ultimate attacking anything besides Mideel, you can rest assured that it was keeping itself occupied tearing up the countryside and such. Sapphire and Diamond just had more sense to go after targets especially dangerous to the Planet's welfare.

Ruby and Emerald just flounder around because they were only added to the game so that it could have some mega-tough optional bosses. They were never meant to be thought of specifically in regards to the plot. But, if you really wanted to do that, you could easily reason that they're just even more senseless than Ultimate.

Raistlin
02-25-2003, 02:46 PM
And Ultimate did attack other places(sort of). In disc 3, if you decide to fight him, he goes over towns and such and seems to begin to cast some sort of beam. I dunno.

PhoenixAsh
02-25-2003, 07:58 PM
I'm guessing Ultima is 'small' because it's a flying monster. Diamond isn't that bright, he does actually just walk towards Midgar then stop. Ultima just hangs around a lake till you attack it.
I don't think the planet would just make giant killing machines, without deciding what they were gonna do. I agree there's something up.
Oh and where does it name Sapphire?

Raistlin
02-25-2003, 08:30 PM
Diamond stops? I've always been waiting for him by the shore, so I don't know what he does if you're not there. Anyways, you're supposed to fight him. He's going to attack Midgar. :P

Also, it doesn't name Sapphire. It was a name suggested for the "un-named" WEAPON when the game first came out, and it just kind of stuck.

I think the Planet actually did just make giant killing machines, so it wouldn't lose to a crisis.
What's so bad about that anyways? People have suggested that Holy wiped out the human race. I find that much more appalling than creating "giant killing machines."

Kawaii Ryűkishi
02-25-2003, 09:12 PM
The game does name Sapphire, but it doesn't name it Sapphire. :aimwink: Its real name is WEAPON, and it's the only individual monster whose name is supposed to be spelled in all-capitals like that. If you use Sense on the other Weapons when you fight them, you can see that they're called "-------- Weapon," not "-------- WEAPON." The official strategy guide incorrectly wrote all their names the all-capitals way, though, which I suppose is where the confusion started.

I still call'im Sapphire Weapon, tho'. 'Tis merely an aesthetic preference.
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
Diamond isn't that bright, he does actually just walk towards Midgar then stop. He has to stop, or you might miss the fight.
Ultima just hangs around a lake till you attack it.Again, game mechanics.
I don't think the planet would just make giant killing machines, without deciding what they were gonna do.As has already been said, the Planet did decide what to have them do: tear up absolutely everything to make way for a fresh start.

PhoenixAsh
02-25-2003, 09:13 PM
They're trying to stop a crisis? Yet they neither head towards Meteor's target, nor Sephiroth. They give the birds, fish and sand worms a good kicking though...

Raistlin
02-26-2003, 09:24 PM
Until Disc 3, Sephiroth had a barrier around the Crater which kept everything out. It's not until right before the fight with Diamond that it's taken out. So, after that, only Ultimate, Ruby, and Emmy are alive. All three of them are included, as Kishi said, for game mechanics: they all give valuable items. Diamond and Sapphire are the only ones that aren't, and both of them attacked Shinra's main bases. As I said before, more power to them. heh

The crisis that summoned the Weapons was not Sephiroth, nor Jenova. Both of them were on the Planet for years beforehand. It was Meteor. How, exactly, would you reccomend going to attack a meteor?
Also, I don't think the Weapons are intelligent enough to know a strategy, so they wouldn't have known about Holy and such.

PhoenixAsh
02-26-2003, 10:25 PM
Sephiroth was the one summoning meteor. I think he'd be a good target.
The planet has been hit before by meteor, it knows what it's like.
Are you suggesting the planet just created them, then when meteor turns up, "Go! Charge! Attack! Oh... right, I didn't give you the ability to do what your designed for... Tell ya what, go attack them people over there and hope noone noticed....."

Raistlin
02-26-2003, 10:33 PM
"Sephiroth was the one summoning meteor. I think he'd be a good target."

Kishi and I have stated numerous times that the Weapons were not intelligent. They wouldn't be able to make any connection.

"The planet has been hit before by meteor, it knows what it's like."

When? Unless you mean the pictures in the Temple of the Ancients. But, if so, where's the big-ass Crater it'd leave, even if Life started over?

"Are you suggesting the planet just created them, then when meteor turns up, "Go! Charge! Attack! Oh... right, I didn't give you the ability to do what your designed for... Tell ya what, go attack them people over there and hope noone noticed.....""

No, they have ability. They are awesome killing machines, capable of destroying almost anything. They are random killing machines. When the Weapons are unleashed, there's three possibilities:

1. The Weapons fail. The crisis wins, and the Planet is destroyed. Worst possibility.
2. The Weapons destroy the crisis right off the bat, and then go back to sleep. Best possibility.
3. The Weapons destroy the crisis, but in the process kill off most/all life. Life starts over. This is somewhere in the middle.

The Planet is just preferring #3 over the crisis winning.

PhoenixAsh
02-28-2003, 06:26 PM
"When? Unless you mean the pictures in the Temple of the Ancients. But, if so, where's the big-ass Crater it'd leave, even if Life started over?"

Umm how bout the Northern Crater?

"Kishi and I have stated numerous times that the Weapons were not intelligent. They wouldn't be able to make any connection. "

They wouldn't have to, although I don't believe the planet would design them to be stupid, it could at least direct them.

"No, they have ability. They are awesome killing machines, capable of destroying almost anything. "

They don't have the ability, they don't even try and stop the crisis. I mean seriously, the planet designed these things to take out the crisis, and random or not you'd think it would send them vaguely towards Jenova or Meteor.

DelightfulSpekkio442
02-28-2003, 07:05 PM
I thought the Northern Crater came from Jenova...

~MJE~

Raistlin
02-28-2003, 07:10 PM
The Crater was from Jenova.

The Wweaponss do not have the ability of reason. That's why the Planet uses them as a last resort.

They do have ability. They are powerful, very powerful. They can't get to Sephiroth because he trapped himself in the Northern Crater until the end of Disc 2. They can't get to Meteor because it's...well, a meteor. Plus, Sephiroth isn't the threat. Meteor is.

The Weaponss are designed to destroy everything in their path until they find the crisis. If they destroy all of humanity, oh well.

Why wouldn't the Planet design them to be stupid? If they were smart, they could take over the world.

I don't know if the Lifestream could direct the Weapons or not. Maybe Sephiroth was blocking that the same way he was blocking Holy. *shrugs*

PhoenixAsh
02-28-2003, 10:10 PM
Jenova is big and powerful, she isn't big and powerful enough to travel across galaxies on her own and smash giant holes in planets. I assumed she arrived on a meteor of some kind when she came. If she flew, why did she crash into the planet instead of just landing.
I am aware they are designed to kill everything in their path, but they are designed to have a path at least!

"They can't get to Meteor because it's...well, a meteor. Plus, Sephiroth isn't the threat. Meteor is. "

Let me check, they were designed to stop meteor, the crisis. However the planet gave them one small design flaw, the complete inability to stop a meteor?

Didn't the mako cannon take out the barrier over the crater? Shinra have more attack power than the planet now?

Killy
03-01-2003, 03:10 AM
The weapons were not created to destroy Meteor, they were created to destroy whatever is a treat to the planet, thats the reason they cant destroy Meteor, they werent created for that exact task.

Final Fantasy Romeo
03-01-2003, 10:01 AM
the way i think it is like whoever said it, seph might be blocking the link between the planet and Weapons. when Diamond/Saphire/WEAPON attacks junon it was in some sort of pattern it was followin like ultimate weapon does flying, it attacks junon loses moves on to midgar and if it won and kept moving it mght of just went in circles. ruby and emerald must of didnt no where to go there fore just sat there runnin arround in sand or swimming with the fishies. i think if the planet could make the Weapons then they would be able to control it. OR Seph some how makes the weapons "lose" memory of there mission or something.
and i remember in the game, it says the weapon were created to distroy "anything" killing the planet even including humans if necesary.
thats my point of view

Zypher
03-02-2003, 03:29 AM
"Jenova is big and powerful, she isn't big and powerful enough to travel across galaxies on her own and smash giant holes in planets."

Apparently, she is and did. It was stated outright, anyway.

" I assumed she arrived on a meteor of some kind when she came. If she flew, why did she crash into the planet instead of just landing."

Dunno. But again, it was outright stated that she did crash into the Planet at the North Pole, perhaps on a comet or something, perhaps not (my guess would be yes). Reasons and motives for her actions aren't given, which makes sense, as she's been dead (or sealed away, or whatever) for a long time by the beginning of the game, and the only record of events at that time are the legends of the ancients (Iflana telling Gast about it on the videotapes in Icicle Inn).

Raistlin
03-02-2003, 04:02 AM
Jenova arrived on the Planet 2000 years ago. She created the Crater. It doesn't matter how.

Pheonix: tell me, exactly how would anything stop a Meteor? Only Holy and the Lifestream itself have that power. Plus, Meteor wasn't the only crisis the Weapons were made for; just any severe crisis in general.

PhoenixAsh
03-02-2003, 09:46 PM
It matters very much how she arrived. If I was a planet that had been nearly destroyed by big stuff coming from the sky, I'd make sure that stopping big things falling from the sky was a feature of my new defences I made.
As for how they could stop meteor, well by attacking it for a start. By trying to deflect it's path. Hell if they just looked at it it would have looked like they were trying.
I still don't see why they didn't try to get Jenova either, you could maybe argue that that's why they fight you, but it's a very big stretch.

Raistlin
03-03-2003, 01:57 AM
Well, since the game made no mention of Jenova getting aid in traveling across the galaxy, it's most likely to assume that she didn't need help.

Also, the Weapons were hardly new defences. They were there, I'd imagine, when Jenova first came.

I've asked this before: how could ANYTHING besides Holy and the Lifestream stop Meteor? Those are the only two that have that power.

How do you attack a Meteor? No plasma rays or anything would likely penetrate the atmosphere.

What point exactly are you trying to prove?

To your last statements: Meteor was the obvious threat. After that, Sephiroth. Jenova was the "behind the scenes" bad guy.

PhoenixAsh
03-03-2003, 09:27 PM
No, Jenova was what threatened the planet millenia ago, she is now active and the planet is in trouble. I think she is a bit more than a background bad guy.
The planet could have designed them with the capability of stopping Meteor. The planet is full of mako, lifestream, materia, knowledge, etc. I think it could match a small ball of the stuff.
Seeing as there's a giant crater at the top of the planet, it seems a bit obvious to me that Jenova didn't just fly. That plus the existence of the black materia, and the pictures in the Temple of the Ancients.

thelynchpin
03-03-2003, 11:08 PM
Hang on just a sec.......wasn't there like 5 WEAPONS to begin with?

With 5 super killing machines, you're telling me that Jenova AND the meteor couldn't be stopped? Assign 3 or 4 Weapons or 1 Super-Weapon equivalent to battle the meteor with holy and lifestream, and create a further weapon or two to attack smaller menaces like Sephiroth and Jenova. In my opinion a tough weapon would be more than a match for Jenova.

I agree they should be made stupid, but surely the planet can make monsters which are physically able to defend itself whatever the crisis?

Raistlin
03-04-2003, 01:51 AM
Shinra launched a rocket at Meteor. Magically, it pulled itself together. The only materia that could harm Meteor is the white materia, Holy.

Also, I've said it before, Jenova was the behind-the-scenes bad person. Jenova just moving around the Planet again is not enough to call the Weapons, as she was out and about for all of Disc 1. Sephiroth was not a threat enough to the Planet either. However, Meteor had the capability of damaging or destroying the Planet, so it endangered the Planet itself, not just the life on it. So the Weapons came out of their sleep. They might not have even known what the threat is, just that they have to destroy everything until they find the threat.

Plus, if you don't believe this explanation, what reason can you give for the Weapons acting as they do?

Pyro Force
03-04-2003, 05:21 AM
if the weapons arent tearing the place up, mind explaining how the "lake" where ultima's taking a nap appeared there? that was a river earlier in the game wasn't it? Even if i'm halucinating and it has been there all this time, it supports the prior meteor contact theory.

As for making the weapons smart, Big and dumb is a good thing. If you have that much power and know how to use it, the planet would actually be endangering itself. They decide the best way to neutralize meteor is to make a nice hole for it to pass through and poof no more planet ;)

And these weapons didn't kjust get made at the planets whim. They were there for a long time. thats why they were said to awaken instead of created. you cant just outfit one of them with a jetpack to fly up and kick the shit out of meteor. I figured the weapons were there since the formation of the planet

Raistlin
03-04-2003, 05:55 AM
When did anyone say they weren't tearing the place up? Destruction's their job.

Anyways, you hit the nail on the head for the rest of your post. I dunno about the Weapons being as old as the Planet itself, but that's completely irrelevant.

XERO
03-04-2003, 06:03 AM
**sighs** ok....the weapons wernt after sephiroth,in fact if you play through and pay attention they are in fact protecting him and the planet.thats why they arnt runnin around destroyin things,they arnt supposed to. accept midgar cuz lets face it,that place was just so damn evil and harmful to the planet. as for ruby and emerald not attacking it after whichever one did...maybe they got scared? hehe...they didnt want to get blown to pieces like their pal...wait....i think the weapons were awakened by sephiroth to...not sure on that one though....dont believe me? play on through

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-04-2003, 09:56 PM
Gast's documentary explains that the Planet created the Weapons (or at least WEAPON, a.k.a. Sapphire Weapon) when Jenova fell to earth 2000 years prior and started causing trouble. They're not nearly as old as the Planet itself.

PhoenixAsh
03-04-2003, 10:13 PM
There we go! I had thought that, but couldn't remember.
So the weapons were created when JENOVA arrived by whatever means causing a massive hole by FALLING FROM THE SKY!!!!!!!
So don't you think that the planet in designing it's weapons because of this, might have actually designed them to be useful???

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-05-2003, 02:13 AM
They were designed to fight something on the ground that had fallen from the sky, not something that was still in the sky--up in space, no less.

XERO
03-05-2003, 05:36 AM
i think they are pretty useful...just really really dumb

Final Fantasy Romeo
03-05-2003, 08:48 AM
when were there 5 WEAPONS????
mayb i missed one
but ive always thought it to be 4...
so ne way
the crater in the north
was created by jenova when crash landing
most of the mako energy were gathered there to repair the damage to the planet
all seph wanted to do was create a bigger crater so all the mako energy was gathered there and maybe he could gather it up to go to the "promise" lnad

Rude
03-05-2003, 01:07 PM
Emerald (in water)
Ruby (in Sand)
Ultima (you fight in Mideel and is randomly flying all over the place)
WEAPON (who attacks Midgar)
Sapphire (not an official name but this is the one who storms Junon)


When I first played the game I assumed there was only one. Then I found out about Emerald and Ruby... so then I thought there was three. But if you look closely the weapon that you fight flying all over the place (Ultima), the one that gets wasted by the sister ray at Junon, and the one you fight that attacks Midgar all look very different.

PhoenixAsh
03-05-2003, 07:51 PM
Why would the weapons be designed to fight things on the ground other than Jenova. The biggest damage the planet has ever suffered was due to something falling from the sky. That's why they were made.

Zifnab
03-05-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Rude
Emerald (in water)
Ruby (in Sand)
Ultima (you fight in Mideel and is randomly flying all over the place)
WEAPON (who attacks Midgar)
Sapphire (not an official name but this is the one who storms Junon)
Close, though the Midgar attacking one is named Diamond, whereas 'WEAPON' is the official name for the Junon Weapon, and Sapphire being it's unofficial name :) )
What I'm curious to know is if Emerald and Ruby were US only releases, what did the FMV of them rising out the crater look like in the Jap version?

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-06-2003, 02:01 AM
That FMV didn't exist in the original Japanese version. A lot of stuff like that was added to the American version, only to be replaced in the Japanese FFVII International. You know the story.

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 03:54 AM
Jenova fell from the sky. However, did they have to fight her from the sky? No, they fought her from the ground. The Planet had never before had experienced fighting something that endangered the Planet solely from the sky.

Also, as I've said dozens of times now, the Planet may not have been able to have any Weapons capable of fighting Meteor, as only the Lifestream and Holy have that power.

Final Fantasy Romeo
03-06-2003, 09:45 AM
as ive seen it the planet does have experience fighting any thing
the weapons were created because there was jenova
the weapon that attack junon is the weapon that attacked midgar called Diamond Weapon
as u see it both of them have this sort of armor at the front like a birds beak there fore both are 1 weapon there fore they are both diamond

and after u mentiond where the weapons are
id like to add that i think
ruby was maily the one attacking anything on or under the ground, emarald is encharge of the water threats ultimate is of the sky and diamond is land
due to most "monsters" are land monsters and there fore need more back up and the rest are sort of back ups

PhoenixAsh
03-06-2003, 12:00 PM
"Jenova fell from the sky. However, did they have to fight her from the sky? No, they fought her from the ground. The Planet had never before had experienced fighting something that endangered the Planet solely from the sky. "

The Northern Crater is the biggest wound the planet ever suffered! It was made by something falling from the sky!

Holy and lifestream are from the planet, it by far had that sort of power itself.

thelynchpin
03-06-2003, 12:03 PM
Yeah, I agree with that...

Over and over again people keep repeating lines like 'crisis from the sky' (not the land), suggesting that whatever it is that is endangering the planet came from above, therefore it would be wise to prevent attacks coming from above by constructing better flying weapons to stop these attacks.

Also, anything endangering the planet has to come from somewhere - it is very unlikely that something actually already on the planet will be a threat, therefore the threat will almost certainly be alien. There is only one way for aliens to get to the ground - from the sky!

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 08:53 PM
Clear two things up:

The Weapons were not created just because of Jenova. I don't remember anything specifically saying that the Weapons were made solely to fight Jenova, since Jenova wasn't threat enough to summon them.

"Crisis FROM the sky." From. That doesn't mean it's a threat in the sky.

Ok, now, Pheonix: ONCE AGAIN: How does one fight Meteor? Who knows if the Weapons could fight another Jenova falling from the skies or not, but how can one fight the Black Materia? ONLY the Lifestream and Holy have that power.

thelynchpin
03-06-2003, 09:05 PM
Raistlin: 'The Weapons were not created just because of Jenova. I don't remember anything specifically saying that the Weapons were made solely to fight Jenova, since Jenova wasn't threat enough to summon them.'

I've been through FF7 again recently, I'm on Disk 3 again as I'm writing this. I do remember it saying somewhere along the line that the Weapons (or WEAPON I think it said) were/was created about 2000 years ago..... Jenova supposedly came then... coincidence don't ya think?

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 09:16 PM
I think you're mixing up the Weapons with Jenova...Ifalna tells you about the Weapons, just as she talks about Jenova coming 2000 years ago.

Unless you can provide a quote.

However, one big thing: If the Weapons were created expressly for Jenova, why weren't they summoned when she broke free?

thelynchpin
03-06-2003, 09:19 PM
OK, I've got a new question: If Jenova arrived on a Meteor that crashed into what is now the Northern Crater, why didn't Lifestream and/or Holy stop that one, which must have been much smaller than the one Sephy summoned, as otherwise it would've destroyed the whole planet. It's not as if they weren't any people to use Holy either - the planet was populated by loadsa Cetra.......I'm confused - maybe Jenova didn't actually arrive on a Meteor?

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 09:20 PM
There's absolutely nothing in the game that suggests Jenova rode into the Planet on a meteor.

thelynchpin
03-06-2003, 09:22 PM
so Jenova herself made the Northern Crater?

PhoenixAsh
03-06-2003, 09:42 PM
Okay the weapons being made when Jenova came has been established already in this thread. By Kishi and backed up by TLP. I myself remember the scene too.
The Northern Crater is enough evidence for me that she arrived on a meteor, it's certainly enough to establish that the planet would want to fight any threats BEFORE they hit it. The paintings in the Temple of the Ancients, and the sheer physics of creating that crater would back up the meteor theory.
For hopefully the last time. Holy and lifestream are part of the planet, they came from it, they have the same if not less power than the planet itself.

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 10:24 PM
I'd like a quote of when Ifalna said the Weapons were created just because of Jenova. I also believe Kishi was merely saying the Weapons were just not as old as the Planet itself.

Why couldn't have Jenova made the Crater herself? There's nothing in the game to imply anything else. Ifalna doesn't talk about her riding in on any meteor. You're assuming something when you don't need to. Plus, it doesn't matter. At all.

The Planet has power? What can the Planet by itself do? No, the Planet itself has no power. The Lifestream and Holy do. For all other threats, the Planet created the Weapons.

The paintings of the Temple of the Ancients are writings about the Black Materia. Possibly, yes, Meteor has been summoned before. Holy is the counter to Meteor. So, the Planet actually did see to it that it had a Weapon against Meteor: Holy.

PhoenixAsh
03-06-2003, 10:35 PM
How could Jenova have made it herself? She never exhibits that sort of strength, even if she did, she did it by crashing from the sky.
What power does the planet have? Well the ability to create giant powerful monsters for a start.
I realise you are in awe of the power of Holy, so let's look at this another way. Holy can stop meteor, Holy can wipe out all bad on the planet selectively. Then what the hell are the weapons for???
For hopefully this time, the last time, HOLY AND LIFESTREAM ARE PART OF THE PLANET. They aren't separate entities that defend it.

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 10:42 PM
Holy is the counter for Meteor. It can only be used by a Cetra to fight Meteor, but can also wipe out whatever's bad currently on the Planet. The Weapons are for other serious threats to the Planet.

The Lifestream is part of the Planet, yes...what exactly does that prove?

thelynchpin
03-06-2003, 10:42 PM
Well, actually lifestream is a mixture of the conciousnesses of all the dead people and animals mixed into one, so if people started leaving to go to a different planet lifestream would diminish, so it isn't a part of the planet as such, ALTHOUGH no-one ever leaves really so I can se where you're coming from

PhoenixAsh
03-06-2003, 10:48 PM
"The Planet has power? What can the Planet by itself do? No, the Planet itself has no power. The Lifestream and Holy do. For all other threats, the Planet created the Weapons. "

My point is simply you seem to see them as separate entities.

So the planet made it's main defence against it's to date most dangerous threat, something that depends on there being a Cetra present, with the materia.
All other threats, such as fish, sand worms, birds, and the odd island village are to be handled by giant killing machines. Which were coincidentally built at the time of the first crash, and resummoned prior to the second.

Raistlin
03-06-2003, 10:52 PM
You have yet to show proof that the Weapons were summoned because of Jenova.

Well, if a normal human could use Holy, wouldn't it make sense if a normal human could then use Meteor? No, Sephiroth wasn't Cetra, but he was an abnormal human in a complete mako-haven. So maybe you don't exactly have to be Cetra to summon Holy, just super-powerful. I think it's better that way, actually.

PhoenixAsh
03-06-2003, 11:09 PM
I don't really need proof I don't think... they were made when Jenova arrived, they were released when the reunion was in progress and meteor had been summoned. I mean if Square bring out a new version it might have a special, glaringly obvious plot points pointed out by moogles option, but for now I'll rely on statistics and probabilties.
Why bother having the planet's main defence need to be summoned? The planet can summon the weapons on it's own.

Pyro Force
03-07-2003, 02:33 AM
Just a quirky theory which has absolutely nothing to back it up at the moment. Who said Holy was around when the first crater was made? It would make sence if it WASN'T there at the time. If there's no holy, the most daage anyone on the planet could do from the air would be ultima, and that would only be just before it landed. Planet doesn't want to be swiss chees so it creates two superpowered materia; Meteor and Holy. Both can take out a planet, so the planet itself should be safe as long as noone with evil plans get there mits on it. It gets crafty and goes yin and yang on it so they would cancel out if an evil certa were to get it and use it. Tell me what you think of my random babble plz.

Raistlin
03-07-2003, 02:51 AM
Phoenix: Where's the proof that the Weapons were created when Jenova arrived? They weren't released because of Jenova or the Reunion...they were released precisely when Meteor was summoned, because there was a grave threat to the Planet. ANY grave threat will summon the Weapons, even if it's one they can't fight(Meteor).

Pyro: That's quite a cool theory there. While interesting and possible, however, I don't think it's very probable.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-07-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by Raistlin
The Weapons were not created just because of Jenova. I don't remember anything specifically saying that the Weapons were made solely to fight Jenova, since Jenova wasn't threat enough to summon them.
Originally posted by Raistlin
I think you're mixing up the Weapons with Jenova...Ifalna tells you about the Weapons, just as she talks about Jenova coming 2000 years ago.

Unless you can provide a quote.

However, one big thing: If the Weapons were created expressly for Jenova, why weren't they summoned when she broke free?
Originally posted by Raistlin
I'd like a quote of when Ifalna said the Weapons were created just because of Jenova. I also believe Kishi was merely saying the Weapons were just not as old as the Planet itself.
Originally posted by Raistlin
You have yet to show proof that the Weapons were summoned because of Jenova.
Originally posted by Raistlin
Phoenix: Where's the proof that the Weapons were created when Jenova arrived?I quote:

"Play the Video?
"--> Yes
"No"

"The Original Crisis
"--> What is 'Weapon?'
"Confidential
"Don't watch"

GAST: (adjusts the recording equipment and walks towards the center of the room, facing Ifalna) "Ifalna, can you comment on the thing called 'Weapon'?"

IFALNA: (nods) "Yes, Professor."
IFALNA: "The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'."
IFALNA: "The Planet knew it had to destroy the 'crisis from the sky'..."
IFALNA: "You see, as long as Jenova exists, the Planet will never be able to fully heal itself."

GAST: (places his hand on his chin) "Back then, Weapon was a weapon the Planet produced of it's own will?"

IFALNA: (shakes her head) "Yes, but... There is no record of Weapon ever being used."
IFALNA: "A small number of the surviving Cetra defeated Jenova, and confined it."
IFALNA: "The Planet produced Weapon... But it was no longer necessary to use it."

GAST: (removes his hand from his chin and shrugs) "So, Weapon no longer exists on this Planet?"

IFALNA: (approaches Gast and shakes her head) "Weapon cannot vanish. ...it remains asleep somewhere on the Planet."
IFALNA: "Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at some time..."
IFALNA: "The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still, watching Jenova."

GAST: (places his hand on his chin) "Where is Weapon?"

IFALNA: (turns away from Gast and shakes her head) "I don't know...... I can't hear the voice of the Planet well..."
IFALNA: "Time...have changed. The Planet...is probably watching this situation closely." (places her head in her hands)

GAST: (turns away from Ifalna, crouches slightly, raising his hand to his forehead and shaking his head, and turns back to Ifalna) "...Thank you, Ifalna, that will be all for today..." (approaches the recording equipment and turns it off)

Raistlin
03-07-2003, 04:50 AM
Hmm...but explain this:

If Weapon was created to destroy Jenova, why wasn't it summoned when Jenova broke free and started moving around?

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-07-2003, 04:54 AM
Jenova may not have been as strong as she originally was; compare Jenova-BIRTH to Jenova-SYNTHESIS. Whatever the reason, however, doesn't change WEAPON's original purpose.

Raistlin
03-07-2003, 05:18 AM
Ok, well that even is a better explanation for the Weapons inability to fight Meteor. They were designed to fight Jenova. Meh

thelynchpin
03-07-2003, 03:39 PM
So let me get this straight: I get the impression the Weapons were created by the planet, and only to be released in time of an emergency. However, the planet constructed them so that they would be hopeless against massive objects like Meteor (let Holy and lifestream battle that), so Weapons would be better suited to smaller ground targets such as Jenova.

Unfortunately, making gigantic killer machines with brains would mean that the planet would risk being taken over, so they were just made stupid and programmed to destroy everything, to make sure the ground threat would eventually be destroyed, and probably to open up the way for Holy and Lifestream to be used if trapped by evil entities such as Jenova.

Am I right so far or hav I gotten totally mixed up?

Raistlin
03-07-2003, 05:21 PM
They weren't designed to be hopeless against Meteor...they just were hopeless against Meteor. They were designed to fight the "crisis from the sky", aka Jenova.

Otherwise, yeah, that's fairly close to what I think. They're just supposed to destroy everything until they either destroy the threat, or wipe out everything, so that life can start over.

PhoenixAsh
03-08-2003, 12:28 AM
Okay I just see Jenova and Meteor as the same threat, that's why I think the weapons were summoned when they were. Jenova does little damage after she has landed, the only HUGE damage she does was when she crashed. Now obviously the weapons were designed to fight ground based Jenova because she was already there, but seeing as the planet knew what damage a crash from space can do it seems stupid that it didn't make proper defences.

Raistlin
03-08-2003, 03:02 AM
First off: How do you know the Planet didn't? The Weapons were only obviously useless against Meteor, which only Holy and the Lifestream can fight. Who knows? Maybe they could have fought another Jenova flying through the skies. Meh

PhoenixAsh
03-08-2003, 02:17 PM
I'm sure they could, but given they need someone to summon them it's a bit pathetic. Espescially as there aren't anymore Cetra. The planet's lifespan is ridiculous compared to that of a species, it would't commit it's defences on the off chance it was attacked in that tiny fraction of it's life.
I still don't see why the wepons weren't sent North, between them they should have just as much power as the Sister Ray.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-08-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Raistlin
Who knows? Maybe they could have fought another Jenova flying through the skies. Meh Well, there is Ultimate Weapon.
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
I still don't see why the wepons weren't sent North, between them they should have just as much power as the Sister Ray. Well, they came out of the North, so it would have looked dumb for them to have started flying away, suddenly stopped short, muttered, "Oh, right," and turned back around.

Raistlin
03-09-2003, 03:30 AM
LOL, good point, Kishi.

Phoenix: The Weapons don't need anyone to summon them. The Planet itself does that.

PhoenixAsh
03-09-2003, 09:22 PM
It may have looked silly, but more so than just wandering around in circles ignoring all major threats to the planet?

I am aware that the weapons can be summoned by the planet, that's MY point.

Zypher
03-09-2003, 09:33 PM
Why is the Planet worried about the Weapons taking over? The Weapons didn't have the power to hurt the Planet itself if they couldn't hurt meteor (even if you claim that it was meteor's location that was responsible for that, I think it's still safe to assume that Weapons aren't that powerful - you can defeat them yourself, after all). Is the Planet even concerned for its inhabitants, beyond making sure they don't hurt it? After all, the Weapons were designed to destroy indiscriminatly.

thelynchpin
03-09-2003, 10:28 PM
The Weapons started off buried somewhere in the North, so why didn't they deal with the threat there and then? Jenova and Sephiroth were both RIGHT there, as were all the major operatives of Shinra.

Yeah, fair enough they're stupid, but there must be something seriously up if the threat is right there underneath ALL their noses and they ignore it.... strange!

Zypher
03-09-2003, 10:46 PM
tlp: I don't think they're even really sentinent. They're like the unintelligent monsters you encounter in random battles. The only additional faculties they have are their physical power, and their ability to sense murder. (I think that was it - doesn't Cloud say at one point that the Weapons are drawn to murder? I think it was when one of the Weapons was attacking, perhaps when Diamond (was it Diamond?) attacked Midgar. In any case, I'm pretty sure they're drawn to things that are hurting the Planet in general, i.e. Midgar.)

Clarify: They could sense things that were hurting the Planet, not threats. So that's why they didn't attack Sephiroth in the Northern crater.

thelynchpin
03-09-2003, 10:54 PM
But aren't they designed to obliterate anything and everything in their path? People were right there, but ALL the weapons just bypassed them.

PhoenixAsh
03-09-2003, 10:57 PM
Umm, unless there's a reactor buried underneath Mideel somewhere, I don't think that's true. I think TLP's point was very good, pretty much everything bad was just sitting on top of the Weapons waiting to get killed.

Raistlin
03-10-2003, 02:29 AM
Yeah, but they weren't directly hurting the planet. Nothing Sephiroth or Jenova or them could do would directly hurt the Planet. Sure, they could hurt the life on the Planet, but not the Planet itself.

Meteor had the power to do that, however.
So, new theory: the Weapons were confused. They knew there was a threat, but they couldn't find it('cause it was miles above them). So they went rampaging across the earth, trying to find it. Stupid, confused Weapons.

Ah, well, I tried. heh

PhoenixAsh
03-10-2003, 08:00 PM
They should have known Jenova was a threat anyway, even if they couldn't detect the user of the black materia.
My point is they shouldn't have been confused, they should have been designed specifically for these events.

Raistlin
03-11-2003, 03:02 AM
The Weapons aren't smart, they have no direct controller. They sensed a threat: Meteor. Jenova was insignificant by comparison.

I repeat: Sephiroth and Jenova can not directly harm the Planet, or only very little, at most. Meteor could. The Weapons sensed a dire threat, and rampaged around the Planet searching for it. They did not go looking for Jenova because she could not do anything against the Planet. Neither could Sephiroth.

Zeikfried
03-12-2003, 03:19 PM
I also found it odd how Emerald and Ruby just sit there and left the other three to do the work, they were just there to fight and had nothing to do with the story though.

The weapons job was to save the plant from destruction, they did not know what was threating the planet so they tryed to destroy everything they saw, they were not very intelligent creatures so they did not know that it was meteor threatening the planet.

Rude
03-12-2003, 07:59 PM
Emerald and Ruby were not part of the original game and were added into the American version to provide ultra difficult subquests. I'm guessing it is for that reason that they play no active part in anything other than sitting around and waiting for you to fight.

Final Fantasy Romeo
03-13-2003, 10:48 AM
some one said something close to this
as i see it, meteor, was the thing that the earth was a major threat of, jenova and seph was practically an ant compared to the danger of meteor, therefore the weapons only wanted to take out meteor, but because there on the ground, they cant do anything about meteor and just wiat around till it comes down,
and about all threats come from space, what if hojo turned into some crazy :bou::bou::bou::bou: as strong as jenova or stronger, the weapons would of only been set to fight aliens there fore they cant hit him...

Raistlin
03-14-2003, 01:12 AM
Hojo wasn't as powerful as Jenova. He was just a freaky old man who injected himself with massive amounts of Jenova cells for no other reason than his own stupidity.
He then had some weird mutations so it would make the battle look cooler. Meh

Btw, the Weapons can fight and kill people on the Planet. They did it in-game, even.

playaGAW
03-15-2003, 05:37 PM
U ever think the weapons weren't stupid just lazy.
My real point is what if the weapons protected the planet by just sitting around.The point of Jenova and
Seph's plan was to injure the planet then when it used
the lifestream to heal he would be at the crater to get the energy. If the weapons was there to die when the
meteor hit they could give the planet enough power
in the lifestream to heal itself without having to use
Sephiroth

PhoenixAsh
03-15-2003, 10:24 PM
Okay as the arguements seem to be getting repeated here, and they aren't answering my problem with the setup I'll try a different tact.

Let's say I've just been hit in the head by a pigeon. I think to myself I don't want that to happen again, I know I'll make something to protect myself. Now I could make a gun to do this. Guns don't have brains however. Oh no you say, now what? Well, I could actually AIM it at the pigeon, instead of letting the gun roam free in the hope that despite it not having a brain it might do something useful.
Now many of you seem to believe that my actual course of action shouldn't be along these lines. Instead I should make a mouse. Now the mouse is completely useless against pigeons, and I have no way to aim it. However I can let it roam free, and it will attack small pieces of cheese which may possibly at some point in the future have decided to become dangerous and attack me.

playaGAW
03-15-2003, 11:14 PM
Make a better analogy next time.

PhoenixAsh
03-15-2003, 11:55 PM
Would it evoke a less pointless response?

Given it would be hypocrytical to leave it at that I might as well mention the post before mine. The Weapons were made by the planet, from the planet. They wouldn't then somehow give it any more power just by dieing.

Raistlin
03-16-2003, 03:23 AM
Actually, Phoenix, my belief is more along these lines:

Say a pigeon dive-bombed your head. You don't want this to happen again, so you get butterfly-net type thing to catch the pigeons in next time one tries to dive on you.
The next day, a big-ass tree branch breaks off of a big oak and falls towards you. How can the net help you against the big branch?

PhoenixAsh
03-16-2003, 12:09 PM
Although respect due for managing to get a well put forward arguement out of that, you do seem to be missing one thing.

Look at the Northern Crater, that's after 2000 years of healing. Meteor isn't that much bigger, if at all than the original threat.

playaGAW
03-16-2003, 07:46 PM
Meteor actually is bigger than Jenova therefore it should make a bigger crater.

Zifnab
03-16-2003, 08:07 PM
What I'm wondering is how that crater could have been made by meteor in the first place. Meteor requires the black materia. Plus meteor is capable of destorying the world, whereas the crator made 2000 years ago clearly left Ancients and Humans (and probably Red's ancestors) alive. So I'm guessing the impact from 2000 years ago was considerably smaller than meteor would be.

PhoenixAsh
03-16-2003, 09:04 PM
People claim that Jenova didn't arrive on a meteor, I personally don't see how that could be possible.

Given that the weapons don't even attempt to attack meteor, scale isn't that important. However considering the length of time the planer has been healing, that is a pretty damn big crater. Meteor wouldn't be able to do much more damage without completely destroying the planet. This would (unless one of Raistlin's idea's in another thread is true) completely defeat the point.

Raistlin
03-16-2003, 11:56 PM
I seem to remember someone mentioning that the Planet couldn't heal fully because of Jenova's influence. I might have simply deluded myself. I'll have to check a game script. Meh

*shrugs* It's not possible for us to scale the damage Meteor would make compared to the damage Jenova did.
However, since Meteor is the "Ultimate Destruction Magic" or whatever, I'd have to guess that Meteor would do more damage than some alien that came along crashing into the Planet.

thelynchpin
03-17-2003, 10:09 AM
The planet couldn't heal itself due to Sephiroth and Jenova blocking the path of the Holy materia. They needed to be moved or eliminated before Holy could escape.

Oh, btw, I know Holy is used to combat large dangers like Meteor, but I'm of the opinion that it's used to restore the Planet too.

Edit by Kishi: You can add to your posts with the edit button. Don't double-post.

PhoenixAsh
03-17-2003, 09:26 PM
You can judge pretty well. Blocked or not, thats a pretty big 2000 year old wound. You have to remember that after a while any impact would just destroy the planet, so meteor can't be that much more damaging.

Raistlin
03-18-2003, 02:07 PM
Well, yeah, it could. Look at the size of Jenova, then look at the Crater.

Look at the ending FMV. Look at the size of Meteor. It's many many times bigger than Jenova.

thelynchpin: please don't double post.

PhoenixAsh
03-18-2003, 07:58 PM
It doesn't matter how big they are, look at the crater. Meteor can't make a much bigger hole than that or it's pointless.

Besides I'm still convinced Jenova arrived on something.

Raistlin
03-20-2003, 01:09 AM
The hell it couldn't. And plus, destruction of the Planet might be Jenova's goal. *shrugs*

Also, for "Jenova arriving on something:" That's a blatant assumption when you don't need one. FF7 didn't say anything like that, not even a slight suggestion. Ifalna said Jenova "fell from the sky." Not "come down on a meteor." Something like that would have been recorded. It's MUCH easier to believe that Jenova just created the Crater herself, and requires absolutely NO assumptions based on in-game facts.

Zypher
03-20-2003, 10:22 AM
Eh, she fell from the sky. She'd have to be pretty tough to literally fall from the sky and live through it, even being an alien. Besides, if Jenova had the power to create such a large crator, isn't she a (direct) threat to the planet? You would think the Weapons would go after her.

EDIT: And no, I don't think that if she arrived on a meteor/comet/whatever that nessecarily means she herself had the power to do it. We don't know her origins beyond that she "fell from the sky," after all; for all we know, she was exiled from another planet, was put on a rock and sent flying out into outer space to whatever fate would befall her. Trying to use her arrival on a meteor/comet to reflect on her power would be pure speculation.

DelightfulSpekkio442
03-20-2003, 04:53 PM
She'd have to be pretty tough to literally fall from the sky and live through it, even being an alien.

But don't people injected with Jenova cells have longer lives or something like that? If that's so, maybe Jenova is extremely resilient.

~MJE~

PhoenixAsh
03-20-2003, 09:15 PM
Pretty tough? She'd have to be practically invincible (which she's not), really uncoordinated (which she's not), about ten times bigger than she is (which she's not), made of solid rock (which she's not).

The game does suggest that she arrived on something through the size of the crater, and sheer logic.

Raistlin
03-21-2003, 12:40 AM
Now you're arguing about physics? IT'S A DAMN GAME. If you nitpick on every single goddamn point, you're gonna be arguing forever.

Zypher: No, she wouldn't be. Unless she continuously jumped up and down from space, creating more Craters, she could not directly harm the Planet.

PhoenixAsh
03-21-2003, 07:47 PM
Well of course I'm gonna argue over that basic physics. Espescially if it's that big a plot point.

Jenova can harm the planet even if not directly, and the planet should be able to tell that.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-21-2003, 10:47 PM
I really think the solution in this particular case is that the game's creators didn't think through these particular plot points as much as we have here.

Raistlin
03-21-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
I really think the solution in this particular case is that the game's creators didn't think through these particular plot points as much as we have here.

Exactly.

PhoenixAsh
03-21-2003, 11:14 PM
I think that's the case a lot of the time, I never see the point in trying to prove what was intended by the makers. Once the games out it's open to interpretation in my opinion as long as you don't go against the games content.
I'm just glad that this sort of thing isn't banned in here like in FFVIII.

Kawaii Ryűkishi
03-22-2003, 12:06 AM
That's because we're so very civil here. :aimwink:

DJZen
03-22-2003, 07:48 PM
oh, can we argue over physics? can we?

The size of the FF7 world is quite tiny. If you had a bridge circling the planet, it would take maybe 15 minutes to walk (not run, walk) around the whole thing. Well, alright, it'd be longer than that, but still it wouldn't take long. Need further proof that it's a small planet? Can you find a south pole? Last I checked, it ain't there. Now, given the small size of the planet, it wouldn't take much to destroy it, right? Like say.... A meteor. Now, let's consider the size of the crater. It's not THAT big, certainly not a whole lot bigger than Midgar. Just stuff to think about if you want to go arguing physics in the game ;)

Also, I think we've forgotten how planets "heal" It's not the same as how animals or plants heal (by repairing the damage done with blood and tissue cells for animals, or by growing again for plants). In fact, planets DON'T heal. Look at the grand canyon, that was caused by a trickle of water! Now, given that the game makes it pretty clear that the world of FF7 is sentient to some degree what with that lifestream thingamie, we can assume that it's also capable of patching itself up somehow or another. However, since it seems to need the lifestream to "heal" itself, wouldn't it make sense that Jenova was simply making it impossible for that to happen? I mean, doesn't it SAY that much? And yeah, she hasn't been there for a while, so shouldn't the planet have "healed"? Well no, it takes aeons for a landscape to change by itself.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw down my two cents and make myself look like a fool again, got nothing better to do :D

PhoenixAsh
03-22-2003, 09:26 PM
The point is that meteor CAN'T destroy the planet or it's pointless. Given the relative size of the crater that means it can't be much bigger than what hit the first time. This is evidence enough for me that the original crash was probably at least half the size of the present meteor. Jenova isn't.
The planet must heal fairly quickly, or again the whole point of summoning Meteor would be pointless.

DJZen
03-23-2003, 10:10 PM
Think Bahamut Zero. Yes, looks like the planet heals pretty fast :D

Just to clarify some things that seemed kinda muddled last time...

Planets don't heal themselves since an organism needs cells to heal. The lifestream is the only thing that could possibly "heal" the planet. I just wanted to point this out because I'd seen arguments to the extent of "if it's been healing all this time the crater must have been much bigger at first", but planets don't heal. They just change. If planets healed there would be no such thing as mountains or valleys.

As to the size of the crater, have you ever watched Dragon Ball Z? Ever notice how the impact left by someone hitting the ground is much bigger than the person? I'm not saying the two exist in the same reality with the same laws of physics, I'm saying anime likes to break laws of physics to show how ultra-powerful people are.

PhoenixAsh
03-23-2003, 10:35 PM
The crater would undoubtedly be bigger than what hit it, unless what hit it had actually landed instead of crashed. That's not the point though.

Raistlin
03-24-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Phoenix 17
The point is that meteor CAN'T destroy the planet or it's pointless. Given the relative size of the crater that means it can't be much bigger than what hit the first time. This is evidence enough for me that the original crash was probably at least half the size of the present meteor. Jenova isn't.
The planet must heal fairly quickly, or again the whole point of summoning Meteor would be pointless.

1. Yeah, my Jenova-revenge theory.

2. That is a completely worthless argument in a game. I am quite sure that the game designers weren't thinking about that.


The crater would undoubtedly be bigger than what hit it, unless what hit it had actually landed instead of crashed.

Again, quite worthless, but this time true. Jenova isn't that big, but have you actually seen her in full form? No...you have seen her cut up into fourths, battling her throughout the game. And, as DJ said, the Crater is about the size of Midgar. Watch the ending FMV. Meteor is quite a bit bigger than Midgar.

PhoenixAsh
03-24-2003, 06:43 PM
Well Synthesis would be pretty close to full form.

The point remains, Meteor can't be much bigger a threat than Jenova was.

Raistlin
03-25-2003, 01:17 AM
Except for that fact that Jenova nicked the Planet and now can't do it again, and that Meteor itself is bigger than Midgar and could probably tear a great big chunk out of the Planet itself.

DelightfulSpekkio442
03-25-2003, 01:50 PM
I'm guessing Meteor has greater powers than simply being able to crash into the Planet. It is black magic after all.

~MJE~

PhoenixAsh
03-25-2003, 06:19 PM
Jenova didn't nick the planet, it tore a massive whole right to it's centre. If you ripped much bigger a chunk, the planet would just fall apart.

Umm when did black magic ever do more than it was meant to?

Raistlin
03-25-2003, 09:01 PM
Jenova put a Crater into the northern part of the planet. Possibly right into a mountain; that or a mountain grew up around it.

Meteor is at least twice the size of the Crater itself.

PhoenixAsh
03-25-2003, 09:15 PM
Then it's travelling slower than Jenova did. It really doesn't matter.

Raistlin
03-26-2003, 01:51 AM
Wtf does that have to do with anything? Now you're arguing the difference between how fast Meteor's going to how fast jenova was going? O_o

DJZen
03-26-2003, 08:07 AM
I stopped looking for sense in this thread a while ago. We're arguing over a videogame, after all... Look, we just gotta remember the big important fact: Meteor would destroy the world, Jenova didn't. Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the Weapons at one point?

Raistlin
03-26-2003, 01:49 PM
About the Weapons and Meteor, actually.

Yeah, I kinda believe Meteor would destroy the world, which was Jenova's objective. But it might not've. *shrug*

PhoenixAsh
03-26-2003, 07:55 PM
Ah the penny drops. You haven't actually read what I said before argueing. Meteor COULDN'T destroy the world, without a ridiculous amount of theorising for the point of this thread.

DelightfulSpekkio442
03-26-2003, 09:56 PM
I think this thread is going to destroy the world.

~MJE~

playaGAW
03-28-2003, 02:26 AM
u PEOPLE IS TAKING THIS TOO SERIOUSLY!! The develeopers were probaly not thinking this when they made the game. This isn't even one of those gamesu have to thin about like Chrono Cross or something. That
game makes u think.

Fighter2knight
04-28-2003, 10:33 PM
Jenova did not arrive on anything. Look at the power of Sephiroth in the end (that is, the Sephiroth clone). Barret says something along this line, "So this is the true power of Sephiroth?" Sephiroth is implied to be ultimately powerful. Look at the original Sephiroth that died at Nibelheim. He was said to be also very powerful. Now, let's see. What made Sephiroth so freakin' strong? Oh...that's right... JENOVA cells! Also, it is implied that JENOVA had a hand in controlling Sephiroth, just as Sephiroth could control Cloud, because of the Jenova cells. If Jenova could control something that powerful, she must be quite powerful herself. The Sephiroth clone in the end is unbelievably powerful, and she created THAT from a lifeless body that washed up from the Lifestream at the Northern Crater.

All right. We've now established that she is powerful. But why the crater. Why, it's simple! Jenova came from other galaxies (that alone is an indication of power), and the game leads you to believe that Jenova has injured, or at least been to, other planets. Jenova probably conquered planets to gain their power, and the power of the people. So she was probably eager to start the job right off. Now, it's been said that if you drop a penny (I prefer a steel crate) from the Empire State building, it will either kill someone or make a dent in the ground. Now, imagine a being of immense power, using all of its power and intent to force itself to the ground and to make an injury (similar to Sephiroth's meteor plan, to be in the center of Lifestream healing) on the ground, throwing itself from the height of thousands of Empire State Buildings, it would make a nice-sized dent in the ground. Seriously, look at the crater Ultimate Weapon made, and that's from just falling from less than a quarter than a mile above the ground, without even TRYING to make a crater. Granted, Ultimate Weapon is more powerful than JENOVA* SYNTHESIS, but perhaps only a little more than all of Jenova (see next paragraph).

We have established, once again that Jenova is powerful. She could probably survive such a fall, with a little life to spare. A kind Cetra probably came over and healed her now-transformed body. Also, another proof to her credit of power is the fact that Jenova's transformed ARM (JENOVA* BIRTH), could keep a party of powerful warriors at bay for a while. JENOVA* SYNTHESIS is said to be Jenova's head, not even her whole body, and it's still a difficult boss. Proof that JENOVA* BIRTH is Jenova's arm, check a game script. First of all, you see the arm on the floor after beating JENOVA* BIRTH, and one of the party members says that it is Jenova's (direction) arm. Once again, check a game script.

To the Planet! The Planet, like all planets, has no sentient thoughts (*gasp*) but just a form of instinct, called "nature". This "nature" causes erosion, plant growth, earthquakes, you name it. On this planet, its nature is to use its Mako energy to create Materia. The planet's "cry" is simply just a signal of its instinct. The Planet created the White and Black Materia, and "nature" filled them with Holy and Meteor. Nature created the WEAPONs, and nature used knew it had to have a defense against something that fell from the sky. It's not the act of falling from the sky that the Planet cares so much about, it's the fact that something that powerful to create a crater could injure the Planet further. It backed itself up with lines of defense, namely the WEAPONs, and the White and Black Materia. The Planet doesn't have eyes to see that Meteor is coming.

The Planet created WEAPON to defend against whatever fell from the sky and injured the planet. "INJURED THE PLANET". When Jenova was no longer a threat, then WEAPON and the other Weapons fell back asleep, and perhaps erased Jenova from their minds, not seeing Jenova was a threat any longer.

WEAPON, when it woke up, proceeded to Junon, to attack (coincidence? I think not!), a place that all Shinra execs were gathered, and where a powerful cannon was located. I think this is another instance of the Planet's instinct, nature, "talking" to the WEAPONs' instincts to tell them, "Hey destroy these guys here!" Diamond Weapon went immediately to Midgar, where the Shinra execs, once again, were gathered, with a very powerful canon. Also, all throughout the game the theme is, "We must destroy Midgar, or Midgar's reactors, because it (they) is (are) KILLING THE PLANET. DANGER, DANGER, CRISIS TO THE PLANET (sorry, got a little carried away). The Weapons woke up because nature, and their instinct, told them that a crisis had just happened. The Black Materia, which was created by the planet to defend itself (much like using your hand [Meteor] to swat a fly on your arm [Jenova], as the Planet created Meteor as a worst-case scenario, sacrificing a sting on its skin to prevent further stings), had fallen into the hands of someone who had used it incorrectly. The Ultimate Weapon went to Mideel because its instinct told it that something big was about to go down, and Ultimate assumed it was a crisis. The Lifestream bursting through Mideel wasn't because of Ultimate. If that was so, then the places that you chase it to would blow open as well.

Ruby Weapon and Emerald Weapon were created as (again, worst-case scenario), fuel to the flame. If Ruby and Emerald died in a crisis, it would provide an unbelievable surge to the Lifestream, which is why the WEAPONs were created sentient, so if the WEAPONs died, they would actually help the Planet repair itself. If Ruby and Emerald died, the Lifestream could probably patch up at the very least half of the Northern Crater. Ruby and Emerald could also be a last-ditch defense, if the Weapons were killed. That is why, when the only Weapon, that was killed by Cloud and the team, died (Ultimate Weapon), Ruby awoke. I believe the FMV of the Weapons awaking is the same in the Japanese version, because it doesn't show footage of Ruby and Emerald waking. This is why I think Ruby and Emerald awoke different times from the others.

Holy and Lifestream are defenses of the planet, not part of the planet itself, though both are created by the Planet, just like the WEAPONs. Holy is meant to counteract Meteor, or something falling from the sky perhaps. The Lifestream is meant to heal. The reason Lifestream aids Holy is because its instinct now realizes that Holy is failing to do its job, so it sort of forgets about healing for a while.

Back to Jenova. The game does say that the Planet can't fully heal as long as Jenova is alive. Yes.

Assuming all of the FFs take place on the same planet, which the coincidences would be too difficult to handle (e.g. Chocobo, XCalber, Bahamut, etc., etc., etc.), then Meteor has been summoned before, or at least Meteo. At least once in FFIIj by the Emperor. By Tellah, FuSoYa, and Golbez in FFIV, and by one of the Light Warriors (probably) in FFV, Meteo being the ultimate Time Magic in that game. Do not flame me or even respond to this paragraph, I beg of you.

I hope you took the time to read this extremely long post, as it took me a while to figure out. Please be sure to try a fanfiction on fanfiction.net which will be up soon, called WEAPON, which will probably clear up a few things.

Big D
04-29-2003, 05:40 AM
WEAPON came into existence to defend the Planet from harm. Jenova was the peril which initially prompted this creation. After Jenova's confinement, WEAPON continued to lie dormant and unused... until the Black Materia was used, summoning Meteor, and creating a threat to the Planet. the WEAPONS came to life because their world was in danger.
Assuming all of the FFs take place on the same planet, which the coincidences would be too difficult to handle (e.g. Chocobo, XCalber, Bahamut, etc., etc., etc.), then Meteor has been summoned before, or at least Meteo. At least once in FFIIj by the Emperor. By Tellah, FuSoYa, and Golbez in FFIV, and by one of the Light Warriors (probably) in FFV, Meteo being the ultimate Time Magic in that game. Do not flame me or even respond to this paragraph, I beg of you.I'm going to respond anyway. There's an entire thread on this very topic over in general FF. You should read it, and post there. The "FFs share a world" argument has bascially been debunked.

DelightfulSpekkio442
04-29-2003, 02:23 PM
The Black Materia, which was created by the planet to defend itself (much like using your hand [Meteor] to swat a fly on your arm [Jenova], as the Planet created Meteor as a worst-case scenario, sacrificing a sting on its skin to prevent further stings), had fallen into the hands of someone who had used it incorrectly.

I guess Big D addressed this already, but I have to point out Aeris' description of the power of Meteor:


Aeris: ...this must be magic. Just what Sephiroth was saying. The Ultimate Destructive Magic, Meteor. It finds small drifting planets with its magic. And
then collides with them. This Planet might get wiped out entirely...

This is reason enough to believe that Meteor wasn't created by the Planet. It's interesting though, because you have to wonder, why would such a spell exist? Remember that Materia contains the knowledge of the Cetra...why would they want to be able to destroy the Planet? Perhaps the Black Materia somehow came from Jenova?

~MJE~

PhoenixAsh
04-29-2003, 07:29 PM
Jenova creating the black materia would make sense, but that probably belongs in the Two Sephiroths thread.

I still want to know what the Weapons were actually for and why they were made to be so useless against anything they were designed to fight.

Spatvark
04-29-2003, 09:44 PM
We all saw how big the meteor was right? One that size would not DESTROY the planet, but it WOULD (probably) kill all life on it. See, when the meteor impacts, it would create a gigantic dust cloud and block the sun from getting through completely. With no heat, all life would die, even in the ocean most likely (though I'll admit that's not certain).

it's accepted fact that meteors which are big enough cause gigantic climate changes; look at what happened to the dinosaurs! Alvarez's theory is pretty much accepted fact now, but then again, so is evolution, and that, just like Alvarez's extinction theory, is just that... a THEORY. Not fact...

Basically, I don't believe that the meteor would be big enough to destroy the planet, but life on the planet would definitely be toast... or rather popsicles =P

Maxico
05-02-2003, 08:37 PM
fighter2knight basicly said what i wanted to say but I'll add something.

In my mind jenova is a celestial parasite. she jumps fro planet to planet sucking it dry and because of this she couldn't ride a meteorite because she would have no way of getting off the planet again. I also think she controls sephy completly. I posted something ages ago that some crazy guy wrote that said that jenova made sehpy so powerful and took control of him untill she regained full strength. that explains why all the deformed (tenticals like jenova ect...) are around sephy when he is in his powerfull boss forms and the last battle (after you've killed jenova) he is on his own and weak (one hit can kill him.)

what has this got to do with weapons? well there was no meteor before. jenova tryed to penetrate the earth the first time, failed, sealed by cetra, awakend by shinra, found most powerful being with jenova cells, deluded him with dreams of the promised land if he can get to the center of the world all to feed of the planet.

so in my opinion weapon could no destroy meteor because it was designed 2000 years before it was created.

meh

PhoenixAsh
05-02-2003, 11:08 PM
Meteor wasn't around, but big things crashing from the sky weren't new. The weapons don't go near Jenova on the planet, or show any ability to fight things from space. What were they doing?

Big D
05-03-2003, 08:35 AM
Well, Jenova was still in the process of re-forming when Meteor was summoned and the Weapons were unleashed. Sephiroth summoned Meteor, so he was the real threat that had prompted Weapon's activation. However, he was protected by his barrier. The Weapons couldn't touch him. It's possible that the Weapons recognised Sephiroth as (mostly) human, and so thought that humans were the threat. This would explain why they'd attack Junon and the Gelnika airships.

Calvin
05-03-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Big D
It's possible that the Weapons recognised Sephiroth as (mostly) human, and so thought that humans were the threat. This would explain why they'd attack Junon and the Gelnika airships.

....and Midgar.

And I always thought that the reason Weapon attacked Midgar and the other places was simply to refill the lifestream. After all, Meteor is coming, Sephiroth is in the lifestream, and Jenova is on the loose. The planet needed some more energy, and although it is rather morbid, it decided to kill some peolpe to gain some stength.

Bahmant zero
05-03-2003, 03:19 PM
jee, and i always thought weapon attacked midgar beacuse it had 7 or 8 mako reactors sucking the life out of the planet and the head of shinra was there, oh well.
Anyway, i think metor could of distroyed the planet for the simple reason that it was stated through out the game.

EveningCross
05-04-2003, 05:18 AM
i think that it's clear that the weapons weren't after sephiroth because if they had been they could have killed him while they were down in that hole with him. I DO wonder why they couldn't destroy Jenova when she first arrived if she was THAT bad and from one of the very first posts saying that maybe Ultimate Weapon was the smallest because it could fly i don't know because it showed all of em bustin out of the planet when they awoke originally. If they weren't flying then those were some super jumps. That last one had nothing to do with anything but I just thought that I would add it in.

Also, let's try this one since I haven't seen it yet... Maybe since Sephy wasn't a Cetra he didn't know the true destuctive power of Meteor and summoned it thinking that it would make him and his "mother" all- powerful. Then when it hits the planet it kills everything, including him, destroys the planet and nobody wins. Game over, no continues. Just a thought.

Big D
05-04-2003, 08:19 AM
I DO wonder why they couldn't destroy Jenova when she first arrived if she was THAT badThe Weapons didn't appear until Jenova was (nearly) confined by the Cetra. Since Jenova was no longer a threat, the Weapons simply lay dormant.

As for Meteor's destructive power... Meteor's strong enough to 'destroy the Planet' in the sense that it could annihilate all life. It would destroy the human's 'world' , and injure the planet to an even greater extent than the Northern Crater's formation.

Maxico
05-04-2003, 10:27 AM
In responce to evening cross

I myself don't think that your last point could be possible. I say this because I always assumed that sephy was being manipulated by jenova (my main point of this belife is in the city of the centra, just after you beat jenova:

Sephiroth: Because you are...
(lots of flashy noisy dissapeary stuff)
Jenova: ...a puppet

this for me suggests that the only one in control here is jenova) and jenova's plan is to gain access to the lifestream and suck the planet dry so she proberly knew the destructive power. and anyway sephiroth say's it may destroy the planet so i think he knew the risks.

I might be wrong though so I dunno seems stupid of jenova to risk herself like that so she might of not known.

Meh

PhoenixAsh
05-04-2003, 09:44 PM
Actually I think the opposite for the same reason.

Sephiroth would wan't the planet in one(ish) piece so he could rule it. Jenova on the other hand is a destructive force who could plausably want it either way.

Spatvark
05-04-2003, 11:55 PM
Going on a tangent here, but you only ever see the real Sephiroth three or so times in the game; in Cloud's flashbacks, in the crystal thingy with the weapons and right at the end of the game. The rest of it is all Jenova to be honest. So, Sephiroth does not summon Meteor, Jenova does. However, Sephiroth DOES block Holy from saving the world; do you really think that at this point in time, he wouldn't know if Meteor was going to destroy the world? It is possible, but unlikely...

PhoenixAsh
05-05-2003, 12:02 AM
I'll just say I don't think Sephiroth does block Holy and point at the Two Sephiroths thread so I don't go too far off topic.

IRONMAN050207
01-04-2008, 10:04 AM
Ya got to think about it they made the game in what like 1992 so all that thinking and work they did was very good for there time ( i only read like the first 6 threads so...):D

leader of mortals
01-04-2008, 12:19 PM
..... this thread is from 4 and a half years ago