Why so many women?

[Besimudo]

In Final fantasy 8 Squall female companions are very attractive. Compared with other adventures FF7, FF9 fewer female members comprised the excursion party. For Cloud Tifa was certainly more physically attractive, while Aeris had other appealing qualities (see the imagery in the FF7 thread for details).
In FF9 it as clear garnet is arguably the most divine character in any FF game...she had the pureness of Aeris and ornament like features of rinoa (but much cuter again). What am I developing here, well in FF8 even Edea was gorgeous along with Quistis, Selphie and Rinoa...What are the creators saying? Well on the outskirts the romantic theme makes FF8 seem like titanic rip-off, in fact ff8 seems lees developed if taken literally than ff7 and until I completed FF8 and pieced themes together FF8 did seem quite ordinary. Similarly to Homers Odyssey, when taken for granted reads like an epic "Days of Our Lives" highlights the Humanness of our existence. Sure, FF8 has wars and conquest, yet these thing take heed to the more interesting preoccupations...chiefly love and human relationships. Most of the time Humans cannot readily justify their actions, as is true with Squall and Odysseus...These men encounter beautiful women, fight wars interact with gods and supernatural forces, the reasons are multiple, intertwined and complicated. In FF8 the big mission is Rinoa, the turmoil is from the heart and only the player is privy to this information. Alfred Hitchcock was well aware that characters deliver more than plot, then events deliver less than plot again. Events are circumstantial, plots are specific while characters are eternally human. When the plot takes precedence over the characters we see a degradation in the whole story... This is why FF8 was so brilliant it allowed the character to flourish.
No keeping with the inquiry that Laguna and squall are some kind of fated humanists, there appeal to women makes this even more viable, Lucifer after all was the most attractive of the angles. In previous threads we have examined the role Laguan and Squall bring in empowering humanity and it seems that no matter how clumsy and useless Laguna is some infernal power ensures he succeeds, even his entrapment of adel looks unreasonable and very idiotic. Laguna’s infernal powers are so great that all women he has contact with either die or become jeopardised to live disruptive lives. Julia, Raine and Ellone. It could also be argued that the death of Raine was attributed to the birth of Squall (fenris) the son of Laguna (Loki) - a literalist would look at these facts as "plot drivers" oh Raine died so then Squall could be brought up in Garden or else the story could not happen (this thinking is quite common in the rationalist age) ... but non the less moronic... I could be accused of going too far, but then explain why there are ample religious references in the game.

[chappu]

Well, well, it seems that you started on one question and ended up with another, making countless questions in between. When I played FF8, I must tell you, I found nothing religious in it. It's main theme is love, and human relations. That appeals more to me then FF7's adventure where the characters sort of join the party for no reason and just start a quest or FF9's fairy tale-like story. FF8 is perhaps more evolved FF, concentrating on real-life while still retaining all the fantasy attributes. That's what I love so much about FF8, there has never been a game like that, not that deep and involving.

I found FF10 to be much more religious then FF8. The whole story revolves around believing in something, and following primitive rituals instead of concentrating on one's life. It even comes dangerously close to doubting the existance of God. There is nothing like this in FF8.

Well, Besimudo, looks like you bring up another serious topic up. Keep up the good work!

[Besimudo]

ahhh, yes well FF8 is not religious itself, but it contains religious dogma...and this is what we are really interested in. It is fair to say that FF10s actual story revolved around religion, but it tended to criticize religion as some sort of "left over" trying to maintain itself in the modern era. FF8's religious references go very deep and represent how religion should work in society... i.e not a conspiring authority like in 10, but more as a tool to realise how symbolic events and people are...FF8 does this brilliantly

[Kimera 726]

It's an interesting analysis, and I kind of concur. A lot of religion and faith are in this world, and no doubt the creators of this game years ago used a little of their influence to get it into the game. I wouldn't be so sure about the woman part, though. Media over the years has always been trying to attract larger audiences, and what greater way to do that than to increase the level of sex appeal. From Padme to Seven of Nine, Ally McBeal to Trinity, Edea to Yuna, it's always been growing, so in my view it's not surprising that the women of FF8 would be created to be as attractive as they are, and their romantic responses to the main characters like Laguna and Squall would further emphasize that.

So you're asking us, "Why so many women?" I guess I kinda answered your question. Sorry if I don't know enough mythology and religion to establish a plausible counter-arguement, making a very exciting thread, but it's got a lot of support and didn't think about things like that before. A "titanic rip-off"? I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe the elaborate clothing and the themes have things in common, but there certainly wasn't any wars. And if I recall correctly, the Odyssey did not have any wars, but more like side stories to a far greater purpose: going home. They encounter gods, superior beings, and in the end there is a grand battle to protect Penelope. Here, I think you can say the same for FF8. The party uses the power of the Guardian Force, travel across continents and through time, for the sole purpose of stopping evil. And meet some pretty attractive women along the way. But what's to say is attractive? Attractiveness is an opinion (I think).

Blah, I'm just typing stuff as they come to mind. No offense, anybody. :-/

[LovesRinoa]

Besimudo, you are not even 21yrs old, yet you seem like a wise individual. You really hit some deep discussion points in your post. I didn't think anyone on here had that sort of depth, not to put anyone down or anything, but most of the people in here are under the age of 19. While 19 isn't real young, you just lack wisdom at that age. I am almost 27. I have yet to see a profile of anyone in here thats my age. For me to have just read your post I must say its a great post. Now that I have kissed your ass way too much I shall make some comments on your post:p

Your right about the females in FFVIII. They are all hotties and each have their qualities. I believe there is some sort of religious theme in the game. While it may not be as strong as the theme in FFX, its still there. But love is definately the driving force in the game. Love is the only reason Squall and Rinoa were able to connect after Time Kompression. Love saved Rinoa while she was floating in space almost dead. While Squall may not have shown it for the first 3 cd's (lol) i know he still felt it. He just had such a deep wound, with having to grow up alone, bearing more than a young man/child should. Hence his shy/loner personality. Given the chance though, Squall shines. What makes him shine? Is it religion thats backing him? I dunno. Both him and his dad had strong souls, strong wills, which in the end always saved their asses. I wouldnt say though that those three women lived distruptful lives due to Laguna. Was there a cause of Raines death? I forget. But Ellone only lived a different life because she had a gift. Julia, she was a singer in a bar. What ever happened to her? I forget that also..LOL Well I havent played the game in a while. I just started a week ago so I am back into it. But the game is imprinted in my mind, it definately touched me in a way. To see the end result of the relationship between Rinoa and Squall has hope that I may find that special one someday. I thought after an 8yr relationship I did but it wasnt ment to be. Anyways I have rattled on enough for now.

[LovesRinoa]

Kimera thats a funny ass pic of Squall and Got Milk?

LMAO!! You make that yourself? You weirdo!

[Big D]

The number of women in FFVIII has more to do with balance, I think. Other games in the series have far fewer major characters who are women (understandable considering that most soldiers are men), but FFVIII wanted to 'even it out' a little. Romance is a driving force of the plot; but romance is less easy with a smaller female cast (unless they were to write in some homosexual characters, which would give all the American censors brain haemorrhages). Also, strong female characters appeal to a wide audience, both male and female.

The characters are all physically attractive because, mainly, of the superficiality of many people who buy video games. Hormonal, pubescent teenagers simply won't care about a character unless they're physically 'perfect' ('perfect' according to stereotype, that is), so unfortunately those of us who appreciate 'inner beauty' are often neglected... not that I'm saying that the FFVIII women lack inner beauty, of course, I've merely digressed a little.

THe sheer number of women who try to 'make moves' on Squall is partially a comedic device, I think. He shuns people, doesn't express his feelings and has few friends, so it's quite entertaining to see how he deals with the attention.

Rinoa was first drawn to Squall because of his looks ("You're the best looking guy here..."), which sadly reinforces the notion that looks matter more than personality when finding someone. Of course, that changed when they got to know one another, but still...

Again. I must disagree with your assesment of Laguna as 'infernal'. He may seem to have the 'devil's own luck', but really his plans aren't too scatterbrained. They're impulsive and he doesn't always explain them well, but hew generally knows what he's doing. As for his attractiveness to women, that's a combination of humour, charisma, positivity and looks. He not arrogant, overbearing or sexist, so there's little that women wouldn't like about him. Interesting point about the fates of the women he meets, though...

[DJZen]

I really didn't notice any religious themes in FF8...

I agree strongle with Big D here. I didn't think there was much of any love in the game. The majority of the game, Squall just wants Rinoa to leave him alone. It's only when she's posessed that he starts to really care. I have no idea why either. Squall just suddenly jumps from not caring at all ("Whatever") to pulling his hair out because she won't wake up. I never got why Rinoa was so hot on Squall either. Sure, he's got that dashing name and the manly scar, but really, he's just kinda cold to her. She also fell in love with Seifer after only meeting him once, then inexplicably changes horses mid race. Maybe "love" isn't quite the right word for what's going on here...

Or maybe I missed something big or played the game all wrong....

[ThE dArK oNe]

Besimudo, you are very good at comparisens between FF and other stories and movies (although you seem to get off topic a little...). Women are used for sexual appeal almost everywhere, so you shouldn't be surprised with that Squaresoft would make some of the characters' outlook appealing as well. People would obviously be interested in something if it had attractive main characters.

Although there are people who would want to get a game for their interest in it's gameplay or story.

Squaresoft want their games to be appealing not only in gameplay, but in the characters as well.

[Rye]

I also think they were just evening it out with the women and men.

I didn't really find any religous stuff in FFVIII, or in any FF except for FFX which revolved around it.

I also thought it was axward about how Squall all asudden cares for Rinoa, but then I realised it. He always loved and cared about her... he just kinda wanted her to go away, because he was afraid. He didn't want to love her, in fear he would lose her.

Remember him thinking about this during the part where Edea talks about Ultimicia. And on the railroad in FH. He said he was afraid what others thought of him, cuz' he was afriad he wouldn't like him (he thought Ellone didn't like him anymore when he was little)


Sure, he's got that dashing name and the manly scar, but really, he's just kinda cold to her

I thought Squall was a cool character! And I lied that scar... and the name too! (says name Squall a million times)


I never got why Rinoa was so hot on Squall either

She saw through his coldness and saw that he cares! ^.^

[Dazlar Bynon]

Originally posted by Big D
The number of women in FFVIII has more to do with balance, I think.

I totally agree and I believe that that's a good thing and I don't care what anyone thinks about that, it's my opinion and I have a right to it. In most cases it is one sex that is more important. I don't want to give examples, but it could be seen as a sexist's act, wether it be male or female. I don't agree with that either. It's all about what people want, they just try to play into that.

I just want to let everyone know that I believe in balance totally and hope that the public agrees (even though they don't have to). ;)

[kali]

Besimudo...exactly what are you trying to say?...it you're going to campare ff8 characters with literary and mythological figures can you please ...at least...formulate a proper, clear thesis ...if its not too much trouble

[Rye]

I thought Besimudo theory was good. But I kinda don't know about those mythology characters/people. I'm know more about creatures... like chimeras and griffins

[PhoenixAsh]

Actually I agree with Kali I'd like to see a clearer statement or question put forward. I'm also lost as to where these religious references are in the game. I'm hoping they're actually in the plot for once given I think every FF uses some name from a religion or legend.

[ThE dArK oNe]

Besimudo spots many similarities, but I wonder if he sees FF as a unique subject. From his posts, he seems to believe FF is composed of many other things put together.

[Rye]

I can see some references to ancient myths and legends... not really religion though...

Umm... Minotaur was in an ancient story about an man who killed the monster (minotuar) with his wits and bare-hands. Every something years 7 men and 7 women were sacrificed to this minotuar (a half bull, half man). The man chose to be put in minotaur's chamber to kill him and save future people.

Pheonix: A pure of heart giant bird in egyption mythology. He went to a river to be die and to be reborn.

Umm... I kinda forgot the rest *sigh*

[Besimudo]

Well it is Easter break soon, so if i feel compelled to cite and reference an essay i will.

I thought the idea here (forums)was to throw ideas around, not to sit down and actually research to produce an extended explorative on the topics.

Oh I consider ancient myths to be religion.
To the Greeks and the Vikings, their myths were just as important as our Christian myths are today. Try not to separate religion and myth, else you end up with those "literal creationists" who try to marry science and myth. For example.... "evidence found to prove the tower of Babel".... This is idiocy because the biblical accounts are mythical just like the Greek.

The thing is that as Christianity expanded it consumed much of the ancient European myth into its very own matrix. Even Easter is a pagan myth to feed the fertility goddess. Christmas as we know it is very Teutonic, the whole "Christmas tree" tradition is reminiscent of tree worship by the Swedish and Danish Vikings... The Germans simply decorated these trees with "Christian symbols" to assimilate the old with the new.

(I could go on all day), the way I like to keep my posts is to express an idea (or multiple in some cases) and then everyone else has a smorgasbord offering their own crazy insights into the game.

Oh finally, the religious implications in FF8 are suggested, they are not literal like in FF10. This makes them so much more profound, it’s a bit like reading the myth of the tower of Babel…this doesn’t seem that religious at first but if we analyse it we see a reflection of the apple in Eden, where knowledge destroys mans relationship with god… for this man is (once again) punished. These are the kind of insights FF8 presents and quite simply one not versed in ancient texts will miss them.

What can I suggest… read up on some ancient Greek and Viking religion, then replay FF8…you will then see its brilliance and it will save me from having to explain every little reference.

Kali…for some one with the Hindu destructive cycle (Kali) as their alias on the forum, you should be presenting some crazy insights of your own. Clearly my posts are not very coherent, but I write them at home very late at night, when I am able to connect with the muses. Normal deductive thinking is not the realm of insight.

[Rye]

Oh I consider ancient myths to be religion. To the Greeks and the Vikings, their myths were just as important as our Christian myths are today.

You really have a point there! ^.^ It's like our Noah and the Ark Myths!

[Besimudo]

FF games have always been composed of many elements... To me they are the most modern medium of myth. Do not for a moment think that the creators were inventing all the names like "Excalibur" or "Phoenix down" (the most literal references) The downside of course with video games to novels is that they are very hard to reference.

[PhoenixAsh]

Now Besimudo, I'm sure most of us now know how much you like to reference something or other whether relevant or not, and sometimes it is very educational and insightful. But if the player needs to have memorised ancient texts to appreciate a reference in the game, it's probably not all that relevant.
Noone's denying your right to fill pages with things most people aren't going to understand, but I still think you could make the actual point of this thread a lot clearer. From what I see it has, and never really had anything to do with the amount of women, and NOONE has actually stated what religious references are being discussed.

[Besimudo]

Well consider the roles women play in the game, and then as I have link them to something relevant.. i.e. Laguna and squall in the case of the initial post.

You could discuss, the storng role women have in the world (edea, Edel) even the capain (Xu) is a women. And Quistis a women...women seem to play very strong roles both politically and in the military.

Or you may wish to flourish on Laguans and women os Squall as I have done. Even the relationship between Rinoa and Squall relies on Laguans failure in the past...and the fact that Julia died (as all Lagunas women seem to do. hehehe that another point) made rinoa resent her father and establish the Owls faction group (oh look here another woman reference to power)...so clearly in 1 minute I have shown the consistency of the power women have in ff8. The designers were really saying something profound here, but in the usuall ff8 style it impresses the sub-conscious intellect and doesnt literally say .... Women are important in this game...We identify it via reflection. I wish more FF games worked on this level when presenting themes.

[kali]

Besimudo---no one is saying that your ideas are invalid...the point I (and Phoenix) was trying to make is that you randomly express many different ideas without making your over-all point clear.

First you talk about women in ff8, then you compare all the women in the series, them you compare FF8 to Odyssey, then you talk about religion and blah blah blah

1)--You are making very extravangant claims but offer no evidence to prove them

2) ---You write as if it's your Diary and not a thread to be read by many.....You simply randomly express many ideas that are disconnected...

Besimudo's post: I thought the idea here (forums)was to throw ideas around, not to sit down and actually research to produce an extended explorative on the topics.


I think throwing ideas around is good and of course no one expects you to do any exhausted research....BUT if you are going to throw ideas around can you at least throw each different idea in a specific thread..

That way i + others can actually respond to your ideas instead of writing a loooooong post on your communication skills....lol

btw--you could have easily open the thread with your last post ...cuz that one was actually clear....and i do agree
with you that the women of ff8 are depicted as strong, independent and powerful

[Dazlar Bynon]

Originally posted by kali
1)--You are making very extravangant claims but offer no evidence to prove them

2) ---You write as if it's your Diary and not a thread to be read by many.....You simply randomly express many ideas that are disconnected...

1. You don't need evidence, well suported theories will do as well, there is just a bigger chance someone disagrees, but that's OK (it's still a forum).

2. I would not use the word diary, but journal instead. In a diary you write from day to day what happened, while in a journal you write whenever something happens, your thoughts/theories and other stuff future generations might take wisdom from in a way they see fit.

It's not that I disagree with you, on the contrary, but I just wanted to make this clear. That reminds me that I still haven't started my own journal...

[PhoenixAsh]

Well supported theories do require EVIDENCE to support them. I'm still waiting for any specific religious or mythical references in the game that don't appear in others.
I agree that the strong women theme would have been a good start for a thread, though I'm not sure where it would go. Looking at it from the vague sort of view that seems to be popular nowadays you could analyse the way the most helpless female (Rinoa) evolves into the most powerful women in time.

[Dazlar Bynon]

Example: There is no proof that Laguna is Squall's father, but this theory is supported by facts whitch still leave some room for discussion.

There is no actual proof - the facts do not speak one way, someone may come up with a theory stating the opposite using the same facts - It's a theoretical possibility, unlikely in this example but not impossible.

This is basically what I mean...

[Lexy]

Dear god, let the kid write...

Anyway, I just think it's great to see something other than "wHo iS CuTeSt?!" for once...hahah..jk, I guess it's not that bad.....

But, I agree with the whole religious influences thing. Some ppl think that the only type of references in a game are blatant ones like the names of characters/items etc....
I'm very much into religion/mythology (I'm a religious studies major) and I enjoy trying to apply deeper meaning to the games I like...although I don't take it THAT seriously, cos video games...I don't consider them a very valid medium for religious insight....well, atleast I haven't seen anyone pull it off yet.

[PhoenixAsh]

Lexy quote:
"But, I agree with the whole religious influences thing. Some ppl think that the only type of references in a game are blatant ones like the names of characters/items etc...."

That's because still noone has answered the question of what references you're talking about.


Laguna being Squall's dad is pretty much fact, there is room for theories, but it's slim. Anyway, it still has evidence to support it.

[Rye]

Laguna being Squall's dad is pretty much fact, there is room for theories, but it's slim. Anyway, it still has evidence to support it.

Yeah, Like Raine's last name is Leonhart ^.^

[Dazlar Bynon]

Originally posted by RikkuYuna89
Yeah, Like Raine's last name is Leonhart ^.^

Where did you find that? I didn't know that. If that's true there's indeed true evidence, because in the end movie Raine's grave says 'Raine Loire'.

It would mean that Squall got Raine's last name, Raine married laguna and there was never anyone else for her, all pieces will come together once you let me know where the in-game info can be found!

I must correct myself as well:
Supported theories can count as evidence, but facts are more accurate. The meaning of every word is not always understood fully by everyone (not even by me), or you place words in a different order, or you use a word with a slightly different meaning whitch alters the meaning of the sentence.

It seems that a number of you try to prove me wrong, I don't blame you, I just don't always find the right words, or I think I do and I don't. Try to see what I mean, please, or things may turn into endless discussions without any meaning what so ever!

[Rye]

1. It's on all the shrines of Squall and Rinoa

2. It's common sense! If Laguna and Raine are his parents and his last name isn't Loire and his last name is Leonhart, Raine's has to be Leonhart.

[Lexy]

But, Raine's last name is Liore. Like Dazlar Bynon said, it says that on her grave, right? I have never heard Raine Leonhart. I'm pretty sure it's Liore, just that I haven't played the game in so long.....
But, what do we know about the practices of who takes what name when ppl get married in the world of FFVIII? Since it's not consistent and I totally know that Squall is their son, I just assume that they have different practices than us.

[Big D]

Well, it's common knowledge that the people of Winhill didn't approve of Laguna. After Raine's death, someone (a neighbour presumably) sent Squall to the orphanage, and probably would've signed him in under Raine's 'real' name. On her grave, however... they knew that she loved Laguna, and wanted to bear his name, so they'd have granted this concession for something as important as her final resting place. They just wouldn't have wanted her son to be associated with the man who, in their eyes, got her pregnant then went off galavanting around the world.

[Dazlar Bynon]

I must disagree with you there. I thought there was one memory-dream where Lagana was at the orphanage talking to Matron, I had the idea the felt Squall had to play a major part in a future event and wanted to protect him until then... (and he couldn't take care of squall himself) He may have given Squall Raine's name, but it is still not certain that he did or where it came from otherwise. The villagers may still have given Squall Raine's name though, since Laguna was nowhere to be found, in that I agree with you.

[Spatvark]

Laguna is talking to Edea about Ellone whom Edea hasn't even met yet. I'm pretty sure Squall isn't even born yet at that point in time.

[ThE dArK oNe]

So many people seem to criticize Besimudo. I really anjoy the ideas that he mention, especially since he does so many comparisens (which are very interesting).

Well, it looks like this forum is talking about Raine's last name right now... -_-

I agree with Besidumo about the women's roles in the game. Something we should see more often.


"evidence found to prove the tower of Babel".... This is idiocy because the biblical accounts are mythical just like the Greek.

I agree, but calling it idiocy isn't exactly fair, as not every1 thinks so. I also don't like how Christianity is so factual and linear in their beliefs. Many things in the whole world are based on Christianity (holidays). Very much like how Yevon is what Spira is based on. Although Christianity isn't enforced like Yevon was.

Many Christianity based history books claim other religions to be "false". Christianity also believes that if you don't believe in God, you are condemned. They don't even think about enough evidence to support the events of Christianity actually taking place, much like Yevon in FFX. Yet they still call other beliefs as well as much of Science "false". At the same time, I don't hear many other religions calling Christianity "false". -_-.

Whatever religion/beliefs you believe in is your choice, but I don't think it's fair to not think about the fact that there are many other religions and beliefs out there.

[Dazlar Bynon]

Well I basiccaly believe in reincarnation and balence, but I do not claim anything not to be possible - there may be a god/ gods, I may even be condemned - I believe that you should have an open mind (adjust your believe if needed) but always stay true to yourself. You must also abide to society, to believe something must be done does not always mean you can just do it (like terrorist acts).

[Besimudo]

Well Laguna can genetically verify paternity, as the moobas mistake Squall as for Laguna. Remember the Moobas can identify people by their blood and in old times the English believed blood to carry the genes....i.e. you have his blood in you and "blood brothers. The relationship between Squall and Laguna is very clear....so arguing about it is a waste of time.
There is no counter claim that Laguna is not his father.

This whole genetics thing is very profane; lets stick to the more implied and subtle themes... those which cannot be verified in the text literally; this is the nature of my inquires.

It is interesting that you found the other post clear. Perhaps this was due to my composing it at uni, rather than late at night when I enter madness mode metamorphosing into a conductor of the great beyond.

[kali]

Ok...i always thought that Squall was given the last name of Leonhart for more practical, out-side of the game reasons...I thought Squaresoft did that on purpose because they didn't want people knowing right off that Squall was Laguna's son.
If he and Laguna had the same last name, then players would immediately pick up on the connection and the mystery element would not be there

[zacks_clone]

It's main theme is love, and human relations. That appeals more to me then FF7's adventure where the characters sort of join the party for no reason and just start a quest or FF9's fairy tale-like story


Im sorry,but i didnt have time tonight to read all these posts,but i got to this.In ff7,they did have resons to join.

1)Cloud,being the maine character,had 'joined',or set out on his journey to get revenge on Sephiroth,but first,it was a mission to STOP Shinra.He had PLENTY of resons to be on this journey

2)Barret was out to save the planet and stop shinra from killing it.Simple enough.Go Barret!

2)Tifa.She was following Cloud becuase she loved him and because she felt somthing was wroung with him.She was trying to help him find andswers,and to help barret stop shinra

3)Aeris went because Shinra was after her,and she wanted to stop them,or atleast straighten things out so they wouldnt get her anymore.

4)Red 13 went along becuase he felt it was his duitey to help his people and his planet,not to mention he wanted reveng on shinra and hojo for 'kidnapping' him

5)Cid went because of his space prograhm.He felt that shinra took it away from him,and he went for his dream

6)Yuffie wanted to help her hometown regain its glory

7)Vincent wanted to kill Hojo for harming Lucretia,and to get revenge for his mistakes.to make up for them

8)Cait sith was a shinra spy.He went because reeve felt guilty for being with shinra.

9)...am i forgetting anyone?

[Big D]

No, you're not forgetting anyone. There are 9 characters, but you listed Barret and Tifa both as number two.

[Besimudo]

One thing "get out of jail free"

Gee people complain that I go a little off topic....Was this post accidentally posted here or what?

[Big D]

Yeah, wasn't this thread originally something to do with the number of women in FFVIII's cast?

[PhoenixAsh]

No it wasn't. Kali and I repeatedly tried to ask what the theme of this thread was but people just argued with us. I'm not sure why, but that's the way it went.

I can't seem to see the off topic post that you're talking about, that might be because I still don't know what the topic is meant to be.

[Besimudo]

Ok, well from the original post one can derive multiple areas of discussion...that the beauty of a forum.

Simply talk about the idea of women in FFVIII it is a very strong theme.

I would appreciate a character analysis or even a look at social precept of women (why are women so powerful in FFVIII) I like this one because it proved FF games were not restricted to the usual long haired Anime style punce bad guy stereotype we have come to expect from Sephiroth, Kuja and Seymore.... Hell I knew Seymour was "evil" the moment he entered the story of FF10. Obviously I found Edea refreshing and her shocking link to the SeeD past made her even more relevant.

Anyhow that’s my rant for today


Cheers

[Big D]

Well, Edea's pointy black gloves and trippy contact lenses lend her an aura of 'evilness' too. As for the "long haired... punce [sic] bad guy stereotype"... there are plenty of "poncey" characters in FFVIII (simply a quirk of Tetsuya Nomura's style, rather than his deliberate intent I believe). Every male character in the recent FFs - even 'older' characters like Laguna and Auron - have perfectly smooth and shiny hair and skin. It's unnaturally good; even effeminate, some might say. Not me, though, I don't really care... the point is, it's not really something that should be subject to a literary critique, since it's just a stylistic idiosyncracy.

[Besimudo]

Quite true, but I do not have a problem with the style or the perfect sheen...It the fact that I used to view too much Anime and i cannot tolerate the cliche manga bad guy now.

All you have to do is tune into crud like Pokemon (James), Urotsitadoji was good (Faust) or even burn up... to see the congenial bad guy.... Why cant we see a sickened old gangster fat guy or a small cocky dictator like Hitler even a macho style bad guy is refreshing in Anime compared with the soft voiced, neatly groomed and usually androgenous baddie.

I think the Japanese have a fettish for the Seymore/Kuja/Sephiroth style hell bent on destroying the world to "clense it". Thats my main objection.

[Big D]

Why cant we see a sickened old gangster fat guy..Don Corneo...
or a small cocky dictator like Hitler ...President Deling, President Shinra...
These characters work well as less-than-ultimate opponents. They have power, but its all financial and/ or political. Besides, there are too many of them in THIS world, without shoehorning even more of them into fantasy worlds.
"Macho style" usually equates to brawling meat-headedness (Duke Nukem et al), completely devoid of intellect and magic - two key components of FF villains, due to their universal intent to obtain limitless power and the ability to transform into a powerful winged thingy when confronted by their nemesi.

'Smooth' opponents such as Sephiroth have a look of precision yet are also outlandishly unconventional. Refined but unconcerned with what the 'mainstream' tolerates. They're strong enough, in every sense, to simply not care. I agree that Kuja looked marginally absurd; the same however could be said of most of FFIX's cast. I'm not familiar with Seymour so I can't comment, but Sephiroth wasn't exactly 'androgynous' at least he wasn't any more so than Cloud or any other anime-styled hero.

Take a look at Laguna... he matches the image stereotype you mentioned. He's a hero, of course, yet you often refer to his nack for destroying womens' lives, and you've also described him as having 'infernal powers'. Something to think about, in my opinion...
:)

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay Sephiroth wasn't anything like you described Besimudo. He was smooth yes, but that probably owes a lot to the date the game came out.

Women aren't powerful at all in the game. In fact they are probably the weakest in any FF. This excludes X where they were simply pointless (bar Lulu who was really badly underused).

Let's look at the main three:

Quistis: Starts off in a position of power. Within about two hours is fired. Within about five is overtaken by Squall (a rookie). Within ten is just a non entity in the game.

Selphie: Her introduction FMV, she falls over. During the game she does very little except act girly. When Squall is gone she relies on Zell in the prison (as does Quistis). She does have one small section in control, but that really didn't mean a lot.

Rinoa: She spends most of the game either sitting down, under the control of someone else, or being saved by Squall.

Other main females in the game either died, or were outsmarted by men.

[Cyan_Lightning]

I suppose the whole analysis of a 'strong woman' depends on how you choose to define strength. I would agree that women in FFVIII, both main and minor characters have aspects of strength. As most of the women in the game partake in battle continuously, we can deduce that they not only possess the physical strength and stamina needed for such an activity, but also the mental strength to deal with the emotional repercussions of taking another person's life.

However, I find it interesting that Squall, whose strength is made clear at many points in the game, would choose as a partner arguably the weakest, physically and emotionally, of the females. Perhaps this says something about the nature of masculinity, for it seems to imply that a man, given a choice, would opt for the ego-massage of constantly being needed, rather than the shared burden of mutual self-sufficiency?

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo

Simply talk about the idea of women in FFVIII it is a very strong theme.

I would appreciate a character analysis or even a look at social precept of women (why are women so powerful in FFVIII)


Besimudo?....a topic?....:eek:

Ok!...I agree and disagree with you all.....

However! it is impossible to ignore the fact that all the main villains in FF8 are female.

---- I have not played many games. But ff8 is probably the only game i have played in which the final villain is female. Edea, Adel and Utimecia are female. It is undeniable. This is probably why the game is so unpopular...however i will not comment on that

----When compared to FF9 and FF10, ff8 definitely gives women more physically powerful roles...maybe not in the main heroines but definitely in the villains.

-----However -- ff7 is tricky....because of Jenova....the Sephiroth/jenova connection has been debated and debated and debated....but the fact still remains that the very last person you fight is sephiroth...whether Jenova controlled or not....he is male....

FF8 --is different in its portrayal of villains as female...Imagine the horror...making gamers (who are usually male).....fight against a final villain thats ...egad ...oh no...A girl????

However i think the heroines of FF7 has more impact and fortitude in the game that FF8

--Tifa saves the damsel in distress "cloud" from the life stream ...what exactly Quitis does i don't really know...

-- Aeris sacrifices her life to save the world (ok maybe not aeris so much ...you could almost draw a straight line between her and rinoa. Cloud never 'saves aeris' but Squall saves Rinoa on countless occasions....but then if you look at strenght from a non-physical point of view you can almost say that Rinoa saves Squall from loniness and love-less-ness......SO I DON'T REALLY KNOW....

I can't compare strength in FF7 and FF8 on non-physical...it's hard....

I can only go on the fact that the villains in FF8 were female...which in my opinion really counts as a valid point.

WOW....i wrote a lot.......(and the sad part is i can go on and on....lol but i will stop this rant

[Besimudo]

Initially I mentioned Xu, Rinoa, Edea, Quistis and Adel.

Women posses the pinnacle of all the areas in FF8 i.e. military, love, leadership and dictatorships. I loved FF8 for this reason it reinforced history to show that although women are in general less powerful than men, In some cases they are the MOST powerful figures in the world. Cleopatra, Elizabeth I and Queen Margarthe I of Denmark are examples of the woman’s ability to crush and win, to build lasting empires. These women make Hitler, Napoleon and even the great Cao Cao look weak.

My point.... FF7, 9 and 10 had unconventional male characters to stir up the mainstream (a baddie should be big and tough) BUT Square has desperately overdone this stereotype to death and I think you have to agree with me on this point...sure Sephiroth was semi original as far as FF goes but definitely not Japanese anime (Sephiroth type villains are the norm in Jap Anime). Where as FF8 gave the aspiring historians amongst us something to critically analyse, despotic rulers rather than apocalyptic madmen as in FF7 and FF9 AND FF10 let me guess FF 12 as well. LOL

I think saying that "most players are male and this is why they chose female villains" denies the brilliant depth that FF8 goes into. To the historian, the Female power figure has a much larger impact than the male villain.

I was hoping for some character analysis or perhaps some thing about women that I missed.... I cannot help it if some of my posts are occasionally non-sensical, but they contain insights which are very difficult to translate. I prefer to work as a device of inspiration so I try to put everything down (so people can comment on more topics in greater detail than I can) in a thread.

Next week Ill start a new tread but it deals with the GFs and how squalls attitude at the start shapes our opinions about them. In a normal RPG the "magical forces" are given a god like status see FF7, 9 and 10 for example. Yet FF8 reflects our own ignorance of the divine realm. When Squall tells Quistus that he forgot to junction....A moron could say that "this was just an excuse to show the player how to junction" whereas the aspiring academic would see it as a subconscious trigger...Analogous to someone forgetting their keys.
When we become familiar with things we become apathy sets in NOW when apathy sets in we forget. GFs are so every day in FF8 that they have been pushed into insignificance, and this is very relevant to me.

This is a very detailed literary theme "the idea of the familiar" FF8 used it brilliantly. Initially I dealt hard treatment to the other FF games, and although these other titles were very enjoyable as far as "high" literature goes they have problems cutting it. It is almost a shame that FF8 is a game because it will never attract the older academic audience it could have as a novel.

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo
Initially I mentioned Xu, Rinoa, Edea, Quistis and Adel.

I think saying that "most players are male and this is why they chose female villains" denies the brilliant depth that FF8 goes into.




Dude.....you really need to read accurately...when did i ever say that?...i was making the exact opposite point

And you saying that a female villain historically has more power than a male one is simply reverse sexism and has no backing

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't think it's reverse sexism, I usually hate that and pick up on it (I think). To be honest Besimudo I think you're seeing things that aren't there because you love the game, and literature so much.

FFVIII's villains weren't great. Certainly not the females. Edea wasn't a villain, and Adel and Ulti were just (as much as we're allowed to say in here) bosses thrown in. The only villain who had character was Seifer.
FFVII's villain was actually debatable, you had to think about the game to understand the truth.

Now the character's you mentioned.

Xu: Over taken by Squall within days. Played no really big role.

Rinoa: I've discussed previously.

Edea: Spent most her time being controlled, or looked after by Zell or Cid.

Quistis: I've already discussed.

Adel: Outsmarted by Laguna, and beaten by Squall. Other than that did VERY little.




Yet FF8 reflects our own ignorance of the divine realm. When Squall tells Quistus that he forgot to junction....A moron could say that "this was just an excuse to show the player how to junction" whereas the aspiring academic would see it as a subconscious trigger

Careful dude, I know I have no right to judge so I'm not, but that sounds a lot like your early FFVII fan bashing posts.

[Besimudo]

Hum...

Is it becuase I suggest such outlandish ideas that everyone objects.

I could simply sit back and describe some of the themes but insted I link an analyse the game on true merits.

Pheonix I listed you as a good member in the poll but your constant nonsense " your going too deep becuase you love this game" is growing old.

I do back things up I demonstrated that Women (with examples) are amoungst the most powerful people in history. Sure many male leaders have done quite well in power, but I think you could argue that Elizabeth I was not the ruler in England Golden age, Margarethe won the whole of northern Europe and Cleopatra is one of histories most celebrated rulers....

Even Canute (Margarethes ancestor) ruled England for 20 years only. Then Edward the confessor took it back and the Danish line was loosed.

Most men have been dictators (short lived military)
While Women have ruled for their lifespans...While this is not true in every case there is a strong correlation. One could argue that England had many other great rulers but non as Impressive as Elizabeth or Victoria.

When Cyan florished on the depth of Squall and Seifer no body objected.

Sure you could say that I go too deep but FF8 is the only one that alows it, with evidence. One could ramble on all day about the other but it would be just ramble.

[Big D]

Most men have been dictatorsUmm...

[PhoenixAsh]

Besimudo I have no problem at all with your original approach to FFVIII, but you don't back up things with evidence from the game, you back them up with things from other places. For example I have listed almost every key female in the game and how they are all 'weak' compared to men, you have yet to say why they aren't.

I think you're going to deep because you love the game not because of your opinions on VIII, but how you rate it so far above the others. Cyan had a lot of good points, as do you, but I rarely see Cyan refer to people who see things differently as morons.

Just out of interest which poll are you talking about, and err thanks for whatever you listed me as good as. Wow there's some severe grammar problems there.

[Besimudo]

Ok Big D first... I was referring to the numerous dictators throughout history.

Next too phoenix... The reason that I like FF8 could be that it has all these great themes, whether they be literal or subtle.

I must confess that I actually preferred FF7 (for nostalgic reasons) to FF8 at the start, even though in hindsight FF8 has a much more impressive beginning.

I love FF8 because it is one of few games (vagrant story and chrono cross) that possess brilliant themes.

I can, if required even do an analysis of a crap movie like say "ROAD TRIP" allow me to speak about a "subtle" theme everyone missed. So consider this... Even a poor mainstream film such as "Road Trip" may seem lifeless when it comes to analysis... well it is, but did anyone out there actually pick up on the characters subtle traits. Of the 4 characters who embarked on the road trip, all but one engaged in sexual gratification, yet this same celibate character also quoted Plato and Socrates. I think the creators were too simple to link the platonic relationship in a subtle way to the characters actions....BUT NONE THE LESS THIS STILL OCCURED, THE THEME WAS IN THE FILM. So I apply the same measures to FF games ....

When I told this to other they also felt I was "going to far"

Quite simple... FF8 has all this content that many cannot detect. And if FF8 did not have these qualities I would have abandoned it!!

[PhoenixAsh]

Indeed, FFVIII does have deeper meanings. Although I do think FFVII is much deeper.

The reason I think you're looking too deep is not because you're finding things, but when (for example) in this thread I have shown evidence that you are wrong, you haven't attempted to back your theory up with evidence.

[Besimudo]

HAHAHA WRONG

No one ever sees my full plans.

For starters Kali exemplified my argument by proving that the female leaders fall to men.

This is good because it shows how ambitious militants have so consistently weakened the imperial (divine) ruler.


Did we miss the French revolution or something?

Its quite simple FF8 showed wonderfully the divine rights of the ruler. This is too commonly overthrown by military (Squall and Laguna), which makes the society worse off "see rebellions". This further cements FF8 God vs. humanity and as FF8 develops we see humanity start to overthrow god (hyne).

What I added to this was that Women have been among our most influential and powerful and in terms of tenue great rulers.

Are people here degenerate in European history or something.


Oh and as for your FF7 being deeper than 8
As I have said in my posts in the FF7 threads.... FF7 is more about imagery, which is chiefly "Japanese".
FF8 on the other hand is contextual, religious and many themes work on the intellect rather than the immediate psyche (as ff7 does a bit like the Japanese ghost stories, if any one is cultured enough to have seen one). FF7 works on the "plot" level which points to the characters where FF8 plays on the character level which points to the absolute. Homer, Shakespeare, Von Clausovitz (on War) all wrote to describe the divine level of the intellect and the writers of FF8 also did this... This is evident in the amount of quality "fan fiction" written about FF8. Notice that most FF7 fan fiction is about "sephiroths biggest weapon", even I refreshed the FF7 threads by analysing the imagery. And I must say FF7 has some very top class imagery, at times much more powerful than FF8's ever was.

Many people feel that (after the first time) FF7 is much more complex that FF8 and this is no surprise as "The true genius is always misunderstood by the common man." Lao Tsu.

I am now going to accuse the room of NOT GOING DEEP ENOUGH.

Don’t accuse me of going "off topic" phoenix started it and in the way of the Tao a good leader gives the people what they want... And for a month now it seems all the people want is conflict. As I stated in the very beginning.

I would really love to start afresh and delve into

1. Lagunas role as the infernalist. (humanity) and his evil powers ( look at the fates of Raine and Julia)

2. Some more on Blade runner and FF7. (one of my personal favs.)

3. Also a bold look at why most people prefer "medieval RPGs" to "sci -fi" I must say I like a bit of both!

Yet most of my time here in the past week has been devoted to defending the role of women, yet many of your attacks have merely complimented my views... This is the nature of true knowledge it is non-reducible. Socrates did it, so I guess it works!

Finnaly I back things up, I quote external sources… Most people here are incestuous gamers, who draw only from the primary source. This is about as academic as the creation scientists citing there own publications.

[Big D]

Drawing parallels between a game's plot and an assortment of myths, legends and literature doesn't necessarily mean that the game is superior in its intellectual and literary worth.

Mythological parallels could simply mean:
1) That it's possible to draw comparisons between tha game and pre-existing works

2) That the game is frightfully unoriginal in a way not seen since Shakespeare, taking some of its 'deepest' elements directly from other sources

3) That it's possible to read too much into what are really passing references or wholly unique plot points.


Its quite simple FF8 showed wonderfully the divine rights of the ruler. This is too commonly overthrown by military (Squall and Laguna), which makes the society worse off "see rebellions". This further cements FF8 God vs. humanity and as FF8 develops we see humanity start to overthrow god (hyne).
FFVIII's society was made 'worse off' by the sorceresses. Adel ruled Esthar with an iron fist; Laguna, despite his isolationist policies, helped Esthar to prosper.

The elements of military action and rebellion in FFVIII - at least, those revolving around Squall and Laguna - have more to do with restoring balance and freedom than with subverting rule by 'divine right'.

One other thing... Laguna's former crush and then his wife suffering misfortune in their lives, cannot be held as proof that he has 'infernal powers'. If a man has the hots for a singer who later gets married, has a child, and then dies in a car accident, this doesn't mean that the man is the spawn of Hell.

[Besimudo]

Look man it does when he brings RAGNAROK to the MOON (where the great hyne lives).

No man made the world of FF8 worse and Esthar was doomed to the same fate as Centra...because of the forbidden fruit (knowledge)

Yeah I used to think Laguna was a good guy, and he is...but he is a subtle reflection of the human defiance against god. AND that is infernal. that doesn’t mean he is some baddie.

And if literary reference to religion is not brilliant then what is???? Good graphics and a catchy BGM

[Big D]

I never said that literary references are inherently bad. However, wholesale recycling of old ideas isn't the greatest sign of creativity.
Esthar was doomed to the same fate as Centra...because of the forbidden fruit (knowledge)
Centra was destroyed by the Lunar Cry, a natural phenomenon which had nothing to do with their technological advancement.

Esthar had the Cry inflicted upon them artificially. They weren't destroyed by it. Their advanced technology didn't help, but it certainly didn't contribute to their predicament.

Look man it does when he brings RAGNAROK to the MOON (where the great hyne lives).
In FFVI, the characters can use a sword named "Ragnarok" when they confront Kefka, who assumes the form of a six-winged being - a Seraph, to some people. Does this mean that the entire cast of FFVI are demonic destroyers, bringing down the one man who wants to use his God(dess)-given powers to cleanse the world of humanity's interference? Far from it. By defeating their deceptively angelic opponent and his nihilistic tendencies, FFVI's characters restored life and peace to their world, rather than allowing Kefka to obliterate all that had been achieved.

Yeah I used to think Laguna was a good guy, and he is...but he is a subtle reflection of the human defiance against god. AND that is infernal. that doesn’t mean he is some baddie.
Well, FFVIII's humans have good reasons to defy Hyne - he was a slave-driver, a killer who created humans to be nothing more than expendable tools. By ousting Hyne's influence from the world, he could be seen as an 'angel' of deliverance. As I've said, trying to correlate Christian myth and FFVIII's history is inherently flawed, due to the conflicting nature of the God in both circumstances. Where the Christian God is the source of all life and justice, Hyne is the source of all suffering and hardship - including the powers of the sorceresses.

[kali]

Originally posted by Besimudo

Oh and as for your FF7 being deeper than 8
As I have said in my posts in the FF7 threads.... FF7 is more about imagery, which is chiefly "Japanese".

Many people feel that (after the first time) FF7 is much more complex that FF8 and this is no surprise as "The true genius is always misunderstood by the common man." Lao Tsu.

I am now going to accuse the room of NOT GOING DEEP ENOUGH.


Besi....if you missed many of the complex themes of FF7 then i can only feel that you view it on a superficial level. Unlike Phoenix (whose questions you still have to answer) I do not feel that you go too deep....i feel as if you perpetually express yourself in a shallow, vague manner. You throw out theses without any evidence
For example take big D's post --i don't necessarily agree with big d but he explains his points very clearly by using evidence from the actual game.

You ask the room for depth when all you do is skim the surface....what the moon and the ragnorak have to do with the role of women in the game I have yet to understand.

But - I do enjoy your posts - you introduce many interesting points ......the only problem i have is that you rarely use evidence from the games to explain them.

for example :possible themes in ff7

--- Cloud and Sephiroth--hero & shadow (jung)
--- the concept of existance and humanity
--- theme of redemption
--- love and sacrifice (tifa and cloud)
--- Nature vs technology

etc etc etc .....there is so much you can discuss with FF7 also...but my simply typing those sentences really explain nothing. Which is exactly what you do when you randomly type stuff.

[PhoenixAsh]

It took me a while to think of just how to start this post, because frankly there's so much to be said, and so little likelyhood that I'd get a response that I ask for. I have to agree with Kali, I was wrong to say Besimudo was going too deep.

Besimudo quote:

Yet most of my time here in the past week has been devoted to defending the role of women, yet many of your attacks have merely complimented my views... This is the nature of true knowledge it is non-reducible. Socrates did it, so I guess it works!

Finnaly I back things up, I quote external sources… Most people here are incestuous gamers, who draw only from the primary source. This is about as academic as the creation scientists citing there own publications.


This is gonna be a waste of time I can feel it.

Besimudo you haven't defended the role of women, the closest you came was from what I remember a list of three famous women in the last few centuries. You certainly haven't shown evidence as to why women in the game are strong. You claim FFVIII to be special in this way, but as I have said, it contains possibly the weakest females yet. Our 'attacks' have not in any way complimented your views. Being unshaken by evidence without any defence is either faith or arrogance, it does not prove you have true knowledge.
Your last comment was just inaccurate, the method you refer to is more like Darwinists citing evidence from fossils. Your method is like Darwinists citing evidence from Genesis.

[Besimudo]

So the Christian God is not vengeful, forgetting the Old Testament aren’t we...clearly you attempt to simplify things Big D. (we can start a new thread for the old and new testament if need be).

As for Kali it is no surprise that the themes of FF7 are psychological... As I have investigated in the FF7 forum.
This confirms that FF7 is concerned with humanistic themes rather than the divine, like FF8 is.

Even the joining of Squall and Rinoa at the end is quite Homeric, As Odysseus and his wife also in the final scene of the odyssey join. Brilliant.

As for phoenix... The fact that the women are defeated just adds another dimension to the argument and i applaud this... the Male leads are militaristic Squall and Laguana defeat the divine rights of the ruling class (the sorceress). This hardly diminishes the impressive role the women play. Your point refers to how the infernal corrupts the divine...and this is another post, where we discussed how Laguna defeats women with his humanistic (infernal) presence...most of the time he does it with sheer luck (infernal powers) and when ever Laguna does contemplate something it turns out dreadfully wrong, and as we see him with Julia he makes an utter fool out of himself with the Leg cramp incident, yet by some odd luck Julia is possessed by his presence.

Strange is it not.

[Big D]

Laguna does NOT posess the powers of the Underworld! He's attractive to women because he's a nice guy and a charismatic leader, not because he enchants them with demonic powers. He's lucky, but not particularly so. Nearly getting killed in Centra wasn't that lucky... he took six months to recover. He never 'defeated' any women besides Adel, and anyway he used a reasonably sound plan to do this. Julia and Raine both died when Laguna was away from them... you might as well say that General Carraway is the son of the Devil - he was married to Julia when she died, and he spent a long time in opposition to his daughter. More infernal powers? Perhaps FFVIII is trying to tell us that ALL men are born from the depths of Hell, whereas women are divine and angelic.
So the Christian God is not vengeful, forgetting the Old Testament aren’t we...clearly you attempt to simplify things Big D. (we can start a new thread for the old and new testament if need be).Every time I mention God's horrific acts as described in the Old Testament, some Christians start to whinge and get angry, so I usually skip over that. I'll gladly debate it in a different thread, though.

[PhoenixAsh]

Actually I spent quite a while trying to discuss that in the Darwinism thread over in EoEO, no one complained, it just didn't pick up much pace.

Besimudo what important roles are you talking about? Its not just that men are better, most women in the game do nothing productive at all. Those that do counter their own actions by doing something stupid.

[Besimudo]

mmmm... where is your evidence. I know what your tying to say, and on the surface FF8 appears to be nothing more than a high school flick. But if we take the Odyssey superficially then we could mistake it as "Greek Days of our Lives or Bold and the beautiful"

FF8 does not try to impose its themes (like other FF) bluntly onto the player. Even the GF's in FF8 are the least grandiose GF in any FF. Look at the important status the Aeons are given in FF10.

What am I saying...well FF8's GFs seem weak and irrelevant BUT they carry a more profound element to the game than FF10's Aeons ever did. I felt that the player was force fed the themes in FF10 whereas in FF8 even something as quintessential as the relationship between Laguna and Squall was vague. Same goes for sephiroth and cloud...however cloud just turned out to be a psychopath. (but then modern people find psychology more "soild" than myth....so it is no surprise that FF7 is more popular than FF8)

All I did was merely identify that Women play an important role in FF8, as they have done in european history. In fact Women are deeply rooted in the whole game.

Some people believe this was for sex appeal; but this is like saying that people drink water to live....when in actual fact most people drink because of the sensation of thirst.

I should fine people for irrelevancy when they say the women were just for sex appeal. Where in the game does it state this? where is your evidence. I provide evidence for my topics. I can remember some guy in high school who answer to “why did Macbeth kill Banquo” and his answer was… because Banquo had a better horse than Macbeth…. You people accuse me of going too deep so I will accuse any marketing strategies as being irrelevant. Saying that the women were in FF8 to entice male audience is purely hypothetical and cannot be quantified in ANY form. At least my outlandish analysis are related to the game ITSELF.

Oh by the way I have posted a new FF7 thread. .

[PhoenixAsh]

Dude, you HAVEN'T offered evidence! Thats the point!

You keep saying women play an important role. They don't. I've went through almost all the main females and they're all useless. FFVIII has the weakest females in all the FFs I've played.

As for the GFs being underplayed, what about VII? I'm not sure they actually get mentioned in text.

I know your not gonna like hearing this, but I stand by my stance that you are seeing things that aren't there because you love the game. Untill you give evidence from the actual game I have little reason to see otherwise.

[thelynchpin]

They only included girls such as Rinoa, Sephie and Quistis as good fighters so that women wouldn't write to squaresoft and complain about sexism

[kali]

I believe that there is a stronger female presence in FF8.
Just take a look at the specifics

1) Main characters:

ff7: 6 Men, 3 women
ff8: 3 men, 3 women
ff9: 4 Men, 2 women, 1 it
ff10: 4 men, 3 women

The main characters of the game are Very Important. And ff8 is the only game in which there is equality in the number of men and women. Numbers are relevant.

And i mentioned this before but nobody apparently seem to think it as important as I do:
2) The Main Villains
ff7: Shinra, Sephiroth, Jenova
ff8: Ultimecia, Adel, Edea
ff9: Kuja, Garland, Necron
ff10: Seymore, Sin/Jecht, Yevon

The non-specifics - random stuff to think about. From a social perspective.

Equality of the sexes??? I don't know
1) Quitis,a female, is incharge of training the seeds --whereas Soldier is run by Men and full of men. There are women in Seed but not in Soldier.
2) Edea + Cid formed ran the orphange and formed seed together....
3) Rinoa is an integral part of the forest owls...whereas Tifa (who can kick rinoa's ass any day of the week but i had to write it)....stays at the bar and takes care of Marlene.
4) Ellone is the one who possess the power to make people time travel via dreaming
5) The airship is flown by Selphie and not by a cid.
6) Selphie is the only one who gets to head a mission unlike the mission that was giving to Cid
7) The minor villains: Raijin and Fujin are on an equal level...whereas Elena is just some recruit in the Turks.

However FF7 also have strong female roles: 1)Tifa can kick ass, 3) Aeris is an ancient who sacrifices herself, 4)Scarlet 5) Jenova!!6) Elena, a recruit but still a turk

And there are many reason to scoff at some of the women in FF8....rinoa and that whole 'save me save me' squall routine....

Blah :mad:.....All that typing just so i can say :it's really a matter of opinion....depending on how you define powerful and important.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay I realise you're neutral, but I'm gonna argue your points anyway because I'm excited about discussing the role of women in FFVIII for once.

First point, a quick note that there are actually three female main characters in FFIX. That's not really that important though.

Okay I'll go through the females in VIII again.

Rinoa- In constant need of being rescued, if not in a coma or being manipulated. Very short bursts of getting Squall to become hero.

Selphie- Falls over in her opening FMV, not very realistic personality, admittedly takes over for a very short period, but just flukes her way through instead of actually being intelligent or powerful.

Quistis- Starts way above Squall in terms of rank, apart from being rejected by him and having him overtake her in rank she doesn't actually do anything else. This is ignoring the stupidest military descision in the game in the assasination mission.

Edea- spends the whole game either being controlled by someone else, or being protected by men.

Ellone- She's kinda strong, but she still spends a lot of time being protected.

Adel- in the few scenes she has she does little more than be beaten by Squall and Laguna.

Ultimecia- She really doesn't qualify as a CHARACTER, you could just as easily say almost all the other bosses are male and argue if she could fight them all.

Xu- Not much of a role, but does get overtaken in rank by Squall, after being outranked by Cid previously.


In other FFs, Tifa, Beatrix, Dagger, Eiko, Yuna, Lulu, Aeris, Jenova all outshine these characters.

If need be I'll go into the males and say how these were stronger than females, but that'll kinda just be the same arguement.

[TidaRalique]

Before I go and say something stupid, Phoenix, what do you think about the theory of Rinoa=Ultimecia (interesting theory and adds a lot to Ultimecia's character)

FFX, well their females really didn't do much (in my eyes), they seemed to be there for moral support (and source of information - As was Quistis for sometime and Selphie for a little bit). And by they I mean Lulu. She, to me, seems to be the Quistis of the game.

Quistis and Selphie, as you have stated, really don't have the strong of a role, but neither does Zell or Irvine (but that doesn't mean their development is not there and we aren't speaking about that) They just seem to be there for the main reason Lulu, Rikku, Wakka and Auron were there, to give support to Tidus and Yuna (only those characters we more elaborate)

If you can't tell by now, I'm agreeing with you.


Quistis - Lulu, Selphie to Rikku, Yuna to Rinoa. Only thing is Yuna didn't have that bravado that Rinoa did. Quistis and Lulu have similar characters. So, if that is so, does that mean the FFX also has a cast of female characters that do not play that great of a role and are they outshined by all other characters?

[PhoenixAsh]

I used to think the R=U theory was about 50% true or untrue, but then we got told we weren't allowed to have an opinion so I now back it 100% by protest. The game has a pretty sucky plot without it IMO.

FFX did have pretty useless supporting roles. The difference being that with the exception of Yuna they don't show their weaknesses. Quistis gets demoted and chases Squall around, whereas Lulu is in control despite heavy losses. Selphie falls down in her opening FMV, Rikku shows her potential to control men in hers. Yuna admittedly was pathetic in all departments.

[Besimudo]

It seems that pheonix, wishes to analyse the game in a stimulus, response approach.

The fact is that women for once play a central role in an RPG. You say that I see all these things in FF8 because I like it?? Well explain why I also write for FF7??

I do not like FF7 as it is not the "optimum" in its genre.
Games such as Silent hill play out the whole "psychological" thriller thin much better than FF7; FF7 also has less myth reference (which makes it more palatable for the self proclaimed science freaks i.e. BSc in "new scientist" magazine) than FF8.

I do however write on FF7s religious references. Just as an aside most people go too deep when they claim that Sephiroth was the best boss ever. Clearly, Sephiroth was a pawn in a larger scale "planet driven" scheme to cleans the earth... If you want a real boss its guys like Ring of Reds "Christopher Schringen" who managed to succeed in the long term sales of weapons to divided Japan. Or Dynasty warriors (based on the three kingdoms, old Chinese texts) Sima Yi ... who impressed the dark forces and eventually succeeded in conquering China. Sephiroth was a crap villain he dies in the end...Real villains get away with their plans and landscape the future to serve their ideals. Real villains are the men who succeed, and are considered by the masses as heroes. Real villains are not even considered villains, but more the guys who changed the world, villains challenge the mainstream.

So I think you Phoenix go too far when you say that FF7 had the best villains.

I have proved countless times that women played a tremendous role... And the fact that the men beat them only supports another of my wild theories that Squall and Laguna are the villains of the game who challenge the great Hyne and succeed.... By beating the sorceresses Squall and Laguna create a reality where humans set the scene. Those of you familiar with homers odyssey will notice that all of Squalls trials are similar to those of Odysseus. So in short the fact that the women are beaten by the Men does not kill my argument as the women as still very CRUCIAL to the plot.

Just for clarities sake:
- Women are important stop calling me excessive.
- FF8 has many themes that the mainstream audience miss
- FF7’s villains were unsuccessful, while FF8’s “villains” achieved their humanist utopia.
-FF8 was not intended to be blunt like FF10, if you missed something that’s not my fault.
- I am glad that most people in this forum have contributed and raised additional materials for consideration. Thank you.

[Big D]

Besimudo, I thought that this had been covered countless times: If someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean that they're wrong or obtuse or ignorant. Deal.

It seems that pheonix, wishes to analyse the game in a stimulus, response approach.
The characters are human; analysing aspects of their humanity is perfectly valid. Stimuli exist in the real world; responses have an effect on the real world. So the stimulus - response approach considers only that which has a tangible, noticeable, relevant effect in the game.

it (FFVII) is not the "optimum" in its genre.
Your opinion, not undisputable fact.

FF7 also has less myth reference (which makes it more palatable for the self proclaimed science freaks i.e. BSc in "new scientist" magazine) than FF8.
It also makes FFVII more relevant to our own world.
- FF7’s villains were unsuccessfulSpoilers!

Jenova: Virtually decimated the Cetra, caused widespread destruction which was never properly repaired.

Sephiroth: Summoned the Meteor, began transcending his humanity and attaining a 'Godlike' form. Killed countless innocents, including the last Cetra. Responsible for destruction of Upper Midgar.

'Unsuccessful' indeed.

Look at FFVIII's villain: Caused political unrest in a few countries, compressed time for a while.

Squall and Laguna are the villains of the game who challenge the great Hyne and succeed.... By beating the sorceresses Squall and Laguna create a reality where humans set the scene.So... freeing the innocent and stopping brutal dictatorships is a 'villanous' act? The Great Hyne was a deceptive, murderous, slave-driving trickster demon. Ultimecia was prepared to destroy everyone and everything in order to further her own ends. Squall never set out to destroy all Sorceresses; it's simply that his primary target turned out to be a Sorceress.

As for the role of the women (this thread's real purpose, if I remember rightly)... Phoenix 17's criticism of FFVIII's weak portrayal of women is justified. I may not agree completely, but I understand what he's saying. FFVIII's men rose above their weaknesses for the most part; the women were usually dragged down by their shortcomings.

Both the men and the women had their individual strengths and weaknesses. Rinoa was a strong woman, but gave in too easily to her desire to rely on Squall. Squall, however, had the detachment and professionalism he needed, but wasn't able to reconcile that with his new-found responsibilities and commitments. I could go on, but others hae said what I think.

Besimudo, there is such a thing as 'reading too much into a text'. FFVIII's 'meaning' is what the writers intended to give it. I seriously doubt that the following is an accurate transcript of an FFVIII script brainstorming session:

"Hey, let's make the men the real villains in the infernal struggle against the divine."

"Cool. We'll give them subtle infernal powers that only intellectuals can perceive. Hyne will be a Judeo-Christian metaphor, only s/he's the real source of power in the game, controlling the Sorceresses from the moon."

"Funk-ay, dude. And like, Laguna - he kills women with his underworld powers, 'cause he's a symbolic representation of Loki. Squall's gonna be called a 'lone wolf' in the English translation of the instruction manual, which'll be proof that he's the embodiment of Fenrir."

"Fenrir? That cool-ass Wolf? Good idea."

...And so on.

Heck, I could find mythological references in the Mr Men books if I really wanted. That wouldn't make them superior works of literature (though we all know that they are, anyway), nor would imply any intentional allusion on the part of the writers. It would, however, demonstrate the strength of my imagination and my power to turn the superficial into the overriding.

[PhoenixAsh]

Big D covered a lot of what I was gonna say so I don't have much to add.


The fact is that women for once play a central role in an RPG. You say that I see all these things in FF8 because I like it?? Well explain why I also write for FF7??

Proving yourself wrong before making a comment must set some kind of speed record. Your first sentence higthlights the point I've been making that you tried to disprove.
FFVIII doesn't have women as central roles. The only main female is the love interest. In FFVII Tifa plays an equally high level role, but hardly classes as the love interest, so it isn't for once. FFVIII is indeed an RPG and women are in it, so that part of the sentence I agree with.

If you spend any real time in FFVII discussing the villains you might have noticed I probably put Sephiroth down more than anyone in there. Jenova on the other hand is far superior to Ultimecia, and also female.


Just for clarities sake:
- Women are important stop calling me excessive.
- FF8 has many themes that the mainstream audience miss
- FF7’s villains were unsuccessful, while FF8’s “villains” achieved their humanist utopia.
-FF8 was not intended to be blunt like FF10, if you missed something that’s not my fault.
- I am glad that most people in this forum have contributed and raised additional materials for consideration. Thank you.

1) Women aren't that important, stop being excessive.
2) Your theory on Squall and Laguna while interesting is way too far above mainstream to seriously consider it that important. It might be true, but it can't have been the focus.
3) FFVII's villains might have succeeded to an extent, it doesn't wrap the game up like in VIII. On the outside shot that Squall and Laguna were the villains, they failed miserably in that neither women nor sorceresses are extinct by the end.
4) FFX was pretty deep, though I don't think I've mentioned it other than to give EVIDENCE as to the weakness of women in VIII.
5) If this is a personal jab at me then you could at least back it up by giving evidence yourself. If not then I agree this thread has been quite interesting.

[Besimudo]

Oh this is sad indeed.

One could look at Mr.Men or the Smurfs on a higher level because the writers included subtle themes.

i.e. the smurfs being asexual, and the creation of smurfette as a trick against the smurf world.
Or ... The Mr. Mens purity of emotion i.e Mr.Men represent single emotions much like Platos forms. Mr.Angry was angry but overcomes this via existentialist metaphors as his soul develops happiness through experience...

Your arguments are typical of the modern age... Oh you go too deep, or this was not in the game, or where is you evidence.

Well as we proved the other day that there is actually more proof (genetic verification) that Laguna is Squalls father than there was that Jecht was Tidus father. For all we know Tidus mother like 30% of women may have been impregnated by another guy who was not Jecht.

What am I saying... Sometimes the most presupposed and obvious things are in fact the least substantiated, often when I say something it rings a familiar bell (for those who managed to see it) Otherwise I receive vehement replies that I am talking rubbish.

Just because the game tells us something, who is to say that the writers are not out to trick us. Who is to say that simply analysing the game alone is enough.

As I have said before, if FF8 did not have all these wonderful themes I would not write about it....In fact if this were the case I would be a member of a "konami" or "Sega" based forum discussing Ring of Red and Phantasy star respectively...

Ill explain a case where people went too far....
Back in the good old days of high school people were arguing the age of one of the lead characters...However I was absent. The teacher told me that I missed a good debate. I asked what the topic was and upon hearing the nonsense I quickly turned to the page where the book describe (in simple language) the characters age.
So in a few seconds I killed the popular idiocy that prolonged a needless argument.

Trust me I do not go too far; once again Big D tries to reduce the argument by insinuating that links and references were created by mere chance. Where is your evidence that it is a translation error. (I know damn well where you are coming from) but you fall victim to the same crime you charge me for.

Oh and Laguna and Squall are not evil in the "medieval, revived by George W. Bush sense" they are infernal for defying god... I am surprised that you managed to let this slip. Oh well.

[Big D]

Oh this is sad indeed.This is the one part of your statement that I agree with.

[Besimudo]

Good old pragmatic Big D... Ever heard of strategic sarcasm... I was merely humouring you.

[Big D]

Trust me I do not go too far; once again Big D tries to reduce the argument by insinuating that links and references were created by mere chance.I'm suggesting that some of the links were created by you. It's well known that works of literature borow from each other; indeed, it's often unavoidable. It stands to reason that some links will creep in.

Oftentimes, though, links can be seen or created where they cannot be proven to exist as a result of intention.

As you proved with your 'strategic sarcasm', a reader can infer his or her own 'deeper meanings' from a work, simply by looking for - and analysing - often tangential similarities to pre-existing texts.
Oh and Laguna and Squall are not evil in the "medieval, revived by George W. Bush sense" they are infernal for defying god... I am surprised that you managed to let this slip. Oh well.I knew exactly what you meant, I merely disagreed. You personally described Squall and laguna as "the villains of the game" who "achieved their humanist utopia."
You implied 'evil' in the contemporary sense.

[PhoenixAsh]

Besimudo why don't you start defending your arguement instead of it's style? We are perfectly aware of how you argue and that you've read a lot of old stuff.

If you could give some indication why every single point I've made in this thread about FFVIII is incorrect, and why the women are stronger than in any other FF. I may be wrong, I don't know, but I have given a lot more evidence that females in the game are actually some of the weakest in the series than you have to deny this.

I am perfectly happy to look beyond the game (albeit in a more creative, less look I read this somewhere else sense), as I've shown in many many other threads where I frequently have to argue with people that something doesn't have to be clearly stated in game. I believe however that this is one of the first times I've spent any time telling people this, whereas you seem to base every post on it.

[Besimudo]

Ok the goal of this post was merely to explore the roles women played in the FF8 world. When you first played the game did it not strike you odd that women had so many power roles in the game? In contrast the only men in power we see early in the game are Head master cid (who is in debt to norg) and general caraway (whose plan fails to stop edea).

I just thought it was refreshing to see women doing something more substantial than being mere group members. In FF7 sure jenova was powerful, but she is not the "form" of a woman... Yeah sure its female but not a woman in the human sense. As for FF9 we also saw a grotesque woman in power, the Queen was quite disgusting. And finally FF10 the entire Yevon authority were MEN. So in short FF8 seems to be the only FF with a strong Female cast both player and NPC.

The whole femme idea is strong in FF8 and as I have reiterated it is not due to "sex appeal", these sort of lame arguments are equivalent to... FF7 had a meteor on the front because Armageddon was popular around the same time, and they wanted the west to like it.

Clearly Meteor is crucial to the plot and what I have contended is that women also play a strong role in the plot of FF8.

The fact that these people (women) are defeated by the men opens up another theory.. but it does not cheapen their role as you seem to uphold.

I knew this thread would be controversial as it tickles the same built up resistance as other contemporary issues as "race" and "ethnicity" and in a world where we crave equality (which I support) we find it abrasive to tackle a simple theme like women.

[PhoenixAsh]

I and I'm sure most people in this thread are happy to discuss women, race and ethnicity. I just personally disagree with you.


Ok the goal of this post was merely to explore the roles women played in the FF8 world. When you first played the game did it not strike you odd that women had so many power roles in the game? In contrast the only men in power we see early in the game are Head master cid (who is in debt to norg) and general caraway (whose plan fails to stop edea).

Well Norg isn't exactly a girl, and Edea is being controlled by someone else. Quistis is only in power for about an hour. By contrast, Cid, Squall, Caraway, Laguna, Zell, Martine, the guy in charge of FH, Deling and a lot more men are in power.


I just thought it was refreshing to see women doing something more substantial than being mere group members. In FF7 sure jenova was powerful, but she is not the "form" of a woman... Yeah sure its female but not a woman in the human sense. As for FF9 we also saw a grotesque woman in power, the Queen was quite disgusting. And finally FF10 the entire Yevon authority were MEN. So in short FF8 seems to be the only FF with a strong Female cast both player and NPC.

Well I'll leave the fact that you left out a severe amount of women for the purpose of making a point and just focus on the handful of people you mentioned.

Jenova might not be human, but she probably IMO controlled Sephiroth which leaves noone to actually compete meaning that's irrelevant.
As for Brahne, the last I checked ugly women are still included when it comes to counting people.
The entire Yevon authority were men, but they were for the most part not human so by your reckoning don't count.

As I said you ignored most women who were powerful in the other FFs so those arguements were really just to make a point.


The fact that these people (women) are defeated by the men opens up another theory.. but it does not cheapen their role as you seem to uphold.

I'd like to know how every woman in the game being overpowered by men doesn't harm your theory that VIII has the strongest females in the series.

I'm glad your actually discussing the women now though instead of some random topic.

[Christmas]

Yes, Adel is very attractive. I wanted to be like her when I hit purberty but I turned out to be NORG. :(

[Mr Gashtacular]

i didnt read the thread but i DO know that girls smell and also have cooties! this does not affect the game in any significant way because the SeeD team are rarely in confined spaces where cooties could spread.