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crono311
04-29-2003, 03:07 AM
Well, i dont know if this board has a topic like this or not..im not going to sift through 10 pages to find it (sorry, dont have the time, and i didnt see a search function on that board). Now, what makes this series so interesting to me is the aspect of time/space travel. More specifically, how the hell these timelines can still exist without creating time paradoxes which leads to a serious problem.

Of course, the initial time paradox most think about is the one that is created in 1999. The defeat of lavos creates a whole new timeline, which brings a peaceful and life filled world in the year 2300, contrary to the 2300 that was left in ruin. Of course, if Crono and Co. cannot notice the future in ruin, they arent going to save it, which leads to a time paradox.

Now, how can square avoid this? On one timeline alone, its impossible to avoid this, however, on two, with one acting as a fall back, it is. It was said in Chrono Cross that there were multiple timelines in time/space that fell to the hands of lavos. (chronopolis, researcher)...however, the one that they were on was one of the few, if not the only one, that was saved from lavos' wrath. Not only this, the entire game is based on skipping from one world, or timeline, to another, meaning that one can actually travel to a whole differnet timeline. At this point, one can infer that there was one timeline that was used as a fallback during the CT travels in order to save that one timeline from the wrath of lavos.

...well, its a start..and still only a theory. but i would love to hear what the rest of you have for your theories.

Spatvark
04-29-2003, 09:08 PM
It's always headache inducing trying to sort this out, and my knowledge of CC is nowhere near as good as my knowledge of CT, but here goes...

In 65,000,000 BC, during the war between the apes and the reptites, Lavos falls to the earth. Lavos somehow infects the apes and they start to evolve into what we know now as humans, but with the gift of magic as well. The apes/humans defeat the reptites and become the reigning species upon the planet.

In 12,000 BC, Queen Zeal and the three Guru's, along with Schala Zeal, use the Mammon Machine to create a link to Lavos. It all goes scatty with the Guru's being scattered throughout time, along with Schala's little brother, Janus.

In 600 AD, a man called Magus attempts to summon the legendary immortal Lavos but he is killed in the process by a lone warrior called Frog.

In 1000 AD, a young woman going by the name of Marle is sucked into a time-gate and sent back in time to 600 AD.

(NOTE: This is of course when CT begins, but we'll ignore that for now...)

In 1999 AD, Lavos rises through the planets crust and reigns down fire upon its denizens, killing almost all of them.

In 2300 AD, the human species finally dies out.

=====

This is the original time-line right? Now, this is where it gets confusing... we all know that when Marle was sucked back in time, Crono and Lucca followed her and eventually they end up in 2300 AD when they discover the advent of Lavos.

The important thing to think about here is how time itself works... if I travelled back two years ago and hacked EoFF, permanently removing it from the internet, the rest of time INSTANTLY changes. I'd not know what I've done since I would have no concept of what EoFF is. Since there is no EoFF, I wouldn't have travelled back in time two years, so I'd STILL be in the present, BUT if I didn't travel back in time, I wouldn't have hacked EoFF, and thus I would know what it is and BOOM! My head explodes.

That's what should have happened. Let me explain...

When Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, they go and change time. So, now Lavos is dead right? This means that when they travel forwards to 2300 AD, there is no video of Lavos rising, thus they do NOT defeat Lavos, thus Lavos does rise, thus they do see the video, thus they defeat Lavos, thus they do not see the video, thus they do not defeat Lavos, thus Lavos does rise, thus they do see the video, thus they defeat Lavos... ad infinitum. It's simple; you CANNOT change time.

The events of CC are immaterial. It doesn't matter that the Time Devourer is created and defeated, that just happens. So, what about Schala resetting time I hear you say? Well, let's see how that works...

So, CT happens and Lavos is defeated, thus CC happens. Schala resets it so Lavos is not defeated, thus Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, thus they defeat Lavos, thus CC happens again, thus time is reset again, thus Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, thus they defeat Lavos... ad infinitum.

Doesn't work still, does it?

I'll leave it there since my brain is melting out through my ear...

DelightfulSpekkio442
04-29-2003, 09:31 PM
It's a fun game. Just play dumb.

~MJE~

crono311
04-29-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Purgatory


That's what should have happened. Let me explain...

When Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, they go and change time. So, now Lavos is dead right? This means that when they travel forwards to 2300 AD, there is no video of Lavos rising, thus they do NOT defeat Lavos, thus Lavos does rise, thus they do see the video, thus they defeat Lavos, thus they do not see the video, thus they do not defeat Lavos, thus Lavos does rise, thus they do see the video, thus they defeat Lavos... ad infinitum. It's simple; you CANNOT change time.

The events of CC are immaterial. It doesn't matter that the Time Devourer is created and defeated, that just happens. So, what about Schala resetting time I hear you say? Well, let's see how that works...

So, CT happens and Lavos is defeated, thus CC happens. Schala resets it so Lavos is not defeated, thus Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, thus they defeat Lavos, thus CC happens again, thus time is reset again, thus Crono and co. see the video in 2300 AD, thus they defeat Lavos... ad infinitum.

Doesn't work still, does it?

I'll leave it there since my brain is melting out through my ear...

thats exactly what im saying. it doesnt work, which creates a paradox..but the concept of multiple timelines jointed with the ability to travel both space and time can help keep one timeline in defeat, while the other in peace.

Basically, what i am saying is instead of just going forward in time, they could also skip a timeline. It was said in chronopolis that there are multiple timelines, and the one that they lived in was possibly the only one that was saved from lavos. Now, its possible that in order to keep the paradox from happening, Crono and Co. may have actually jumped both time and space to enter a different timeline where 2300 ad is still in ruin. Of course, this is only a theory and cannot be proven yet...but its one explanation thats a little easier on the brain then considering a time paradox.

Square needs quite a bit to be able to fix what has been done with CT..and it still needs to approach that question with an explanation that is incredibly air tight.

Flying Mullet
04-29-2003, 10:44 PM
If it's a paradox that just keeps repeating itself I guess we'll just have to keep playing to beat Lavos over and over again. :D

And on the time paradox note, if the events keep repeating themselves, would one live forever in the loop?

crono311
04-29-2003, 10:46 PM
.....

well, im guessing you didnt read what this was about..

its about a solution to the very obvious problem in the CT storyline that just wasnt clearly solved. so, why not suggest what you think may have logically happened.

Dignified Pauper
04-29-2003, 10:51 PM
Play Radical Dreamers, maybe it solves something, but i doubt it.

Spatvark
04-29-2003, 10:52 PM
This is the thing, there has been a lot of argument about the possible third game in the series on two points: a) is it really going to happen? and b) what is it actually called?

See, a lot of people claim that it's called Chrono Break, and a lot say that it's called Chrono Brake. The difference there is a very MAJOR one really...

Break suggest breaking out of a time loop, Brake suggests stopping time, full stop... but then, it may never happen =P

EDIT: The entire premise of Radical Dreamers is that it's based on the CT world, BUT it is set in multiple dimensions. There are seven chapters, all of which are somewhat the same and yet somewhat different. They all happen concurrently yet none of them affects the other since they are in DIFFERENT dimensions. None of them are in the CC dimension...

crono311
04-29-2003, 10:53 PM
well, actually, radical dreamers was regarded as another one of those timelines in CC. in fact, you could actually get some quotes from RD in Chronopolis. I will just play it just for kicks, but i really wonder if that will show in the CT timeline.

*EDIT*, but im willing to bet that the CC universe/timeline is the actual timeline, considering that was the one that was actually sent over here. in either case, it is as i and you said..its a different timeline..or dimension...(timeline, since thats what chronopolis calls it)

Super Christ
04-30-2003, 08:26 PM
My own personal theory is that conciousness would be immune to the effects of time travel - you'd remember the new timeline as well as the old one you destroyed. But that's just my pet theory.

On to a real one, the Quantuum branching theory of time (I can't remember it's actual name, but that name is pretty descriptive of what it is) clears up every single paradox problem; however, it does create one. Under this theory of time, it doesn't matter how complex and impossible a paradox sounds, it's doable. The idea is that whenever there is a quantuum possibility, the universe splits into two universes where each possibility is played out. So, they get thrown into the future of their timeline and see the world destroyed. Through all their meddling in the past, they've made new splits in the universe and through that made a new future without Lavos destroying the world. And since they're technically from another universe, rather than the new, saved universe, they still have full memory of the desolate future.

I personally don't like this theory, but it is an actual theory; and several times during Chrono Cross it looks to me like they're alluding to it, so I think it may be the one they use for how time works in their world. The one problem it does create, though, is that under this theory Marle wouldn't have disappeared when Leene was never found.

scottwardADD
07-04-2003, 10:01 PM
the paradox you guys are discussing is called the Grandmother theory/paradox... it has lots of different names. And the whole time branching thing is almost a reality. You have to think, every single fraction of somethingsmaller than the time elapsed from a humming birds on flap of a wing. An infinetly small fraction of time, would branch an infinite ammount of times assuming everything is possible, which everything IS possible just unlikely. Lets work in Milliseconds for this. For the ONE millisecond of time elapsed a humming birds wing moves, there is a possibility of ANYTHING to occure because of that one movement, buildings could collapse, a person could die, because everything is linked by time. This means that if that happens, an infinate ammount of branches would be branched. if it DIDNT happen than another infinite ammount of branches would be branched.

What I'm trying to say is, since the beginning of time, which is forever, theres gonna be more than a number imaginable of possibilities and its never gonna end since its infinate. Wow, infinate is used a lot here. Anyway, branching of time makes CT possible, I think... Just think of it as a huge shirt, and time branches are the threads and keep going and going.

XERO
07-25-2003, 10:39 AM
isnt one of the dimensions artificially created by FATE? thats what i thought it said while in Chronopolis...could be wrong though

GogoTheMimic
07-31-2003, 08:33 AM
I didn't think there was that much to Radical Dreamers... I mean, all that happened was Serge, Kid, and Magil(of whom I'm sure is Magus) go into Viper manor, do some junk, find Lynx underground in the ruins of Zeal, kill him, and get the Frozen Flame, right? Or did I just mess up somewhere?

Ocaj
08-13-2003, 07:42 PM
nice theory's
you forgot one thing though...

While Chrono & co where changing time they didn't get infected by the changes(example, Robo wasn't erased out of time because his future changed)

Why? Because they where traveling through time itself. That's why they don't get efected and that's why the time paradox doesn't occur in this case!

edczxcvbnm
08-15-2003, 05:24 PM
Didn't you people ever see back the the future part 2? It explains it all because the same thing happens pretty much.

Crono and Co go to the future and find out Lavos is gonna lay waste to the planet. So they get their shit together and take him the :skull::skull::skull::skull: out!

Now, While they did defeat lavos it changed the course of history but it didn't wipeout the time line where they saw everything from the future. The time line just branched off into a new and now there are 2 time lines with a equal past and what not.

Now Serge and Co come into play. With the new future being altered and that experiment of time travel in chronopolis happening...that place got sent back in time and FATE studied and controlled everything...blah blah blah Lavos is still alive but exists inbetween dimensions...blah blah blah you have to prevent him from devouring both time lines....blah blah blah you meld the 2 timelines back into one(probably the original where lavos destorys the planet)

The cycle continues...and now we must break this crazy-ass cycle in Chrono Break(yeah you saw it coming mother :skull::skull::skull::skull:ers)

GogoTheMimic
08-24-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by edczxcvbnm
Didn't you people ever see back the the future part 2?

This is, of course, assuming that Square is using BttF's time travel theory in making the Chrono series when in fact it seems as though they are making their own theory.

Kenshin IV
08-24-2003, 04:19 AM
When Square made Trigger, I'm sure they didn't really care to get too deep into the paradoxes. I'm sure they were more interested in just making an original RPG, with an original (and fun) storyline that was actually fairly simplistic. Of course, they succeeded in making one of the greatest RPGs of all time.
Now, with Cross, I think they wanted to change the direction a bit and make it more deep and more complex, and also address the paradoxes a little bit more. Which is where the whole multiple timelines comes in. I really believe the advances in technology, and the increased popularity of RPGs played a big part in this.
If they ever continue the series (and they better, damn it!), I'm sure the storyline will get even more bizarre and even more complex, but I'm also sure that even more will be explained.

Outsider
08-24-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Kenshin IV
If they ever continue the series (and they better, damn it!), I'm sure the storyline will get even more bizarre and even more complex, but I'm also sure that even more will be explained.


And it will get even more boring and even more disappointing, I'm pretty sure.

I loved Chrono Trigger for they not worry too much with datailed stuff in the time travel. They worried much more with the characters and with the storyline (one of the most original storylines I ever saw, I must add).

Chrono Cross was really boring, and if they continue the series the next game will follow the same line as CC. That's why I don't want any sequels.

Kenshin IV
08-24-2003, 08:38 PM
Chrono Cross was fooking great. When it came out, it was the best game Square made since Xenogears and Tactics.

Outsider
08-25-2003, 12:00 AM
No, The best Square games were FF4, FF6 and CT... But Xenogear and FFTactics were damn good games, too.

But how can you say that CC was good?
In the first place, the characters had no history, or background... They were just there! I got most of the characters I could get and I hated most of them.
The storyline was kinda sucky too, I played it until the fight against the Sky Dragon and I couldn't stand it no more.
And that bizarre technique system really got me, it was really annoying). I can't believe they ignored the double and triple techs, that was one of the best things in CT.

I can point some more mistakes in this game, but these were the main points of my disappointment.

Kenshin IV
08-25-2003, 03:32 AM
I said it was the best Square game since Xenogears and Tactics. I do agree with you that Four, Six, and Trigger were some of Squares greatest, but I'd also include Seven, Xenogears, and Tactics on that list. It's true that the only characters in Cross the game really concentrated on were Serge, Kid, and Lynx, but that's really all it needed. The rest of the characters were there to add depth to the gameplay, not the storyline. Most of them did have their own interesting little side-stories, but their main purpose was for the player to try to obtain all the characters in the game. It added some replay value.
I loved the story. It wasn't Xenogears amazing, but I found it very smart and interesting. I also loved the little tie-ins it had with Trigger. As for the battle system, that was really a like it or hate it kind of thing. I can definietly see why someone wouldn't like it, but I can also see why someone would. It's original, and you can do some pretty interesting things with the magic system. However, I do admit that it was far from being perfect.

telemachus002
11-19-2003, 08:25 AM
i would say crono and co. exist outside of time when they travel. so now they are no longer existing in the time as everyone else and there for anything they changed at least in this game deleted or overwrites what did happen and followed through with what is the now current future. for example the part where you can take the jerky you bought from a man that cost around $90000 and you can sell it to the woman with all the children or give it to her, so that you change her family values and travel forward in histroy to reclaim the sun stone from the man. but you can also go back in time again and sell the jerky to her again and change her family values yet you still keep the sun stone after retrieving it.

but here's one for you why is it that everytime they travel into time they still progress in time. they should theoreticaly return to the same point in time everytime and see themselves traveling off.