That mysterious hole in Trabia...

[Sorceress Fujin]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I've always wondered about that giant hole that separates Trabia and Esthar. My theory is that it was from the last Lunar Cry because if you wander around Esthar talking to people, they explicitly say that the last Lunar Cry was in Trabia. So... I was wondering what everyone else's thoughts on it are?

[TogiB]

That is what i thought before. the programmers just put that in there to prevent you from taking the garden to esthar to early. i have only played the game in foriegn languages (i live in russia) and i was trying so hard to get by the thing. i'd have to agree with the townspeople.

[Xu]

mmm i didn't know that... but, the last lunar cry didn't occur on Centra(i guess i'm wrong)?

well, besides that hole, you cant enter in Esthar because that barrier that surrounds most of the continent

[Mo-Nercy]

I am quite sure that last Lunar Cry was in Centra. Then again in Esthar, at Tear's Point. I dunno where the hole came from...let's see, I remember seeing two missiles get fired to Trabia, maybe one missed?

[Big D]

That hole is where the Lunatic Pandora was, at least for a time. Remember Laguna's foray into acting? When he, Kiros and (occasionally) Ward are leaving the Trabia Canyon, he looks into the distance and sees the Crystal Pillar gleaming. I guess that was when Esthar was still experimenting with the Pillar before they sank it. The Pillar generates a huge amount of energy; if that energy lingered, that'd explain why the Garden's controls get messed up whenever Nida tries to fly over the crater.

I remember seeing two missiles get fired to Trabia, maybe one missed?They fired a whole swag of missiles, but they wouldn't have had the power to cause that much damage to the ground.

[Mo-Nercy]

EDIT: Whoopsie, better correct that observation, cuz it was clearly worng. My mistake, nicely pointed out Big D.

[chocoboy]

It was put there by the programmers to keep people from going into esthar. Garden can't fly over it and you can't ride a chocobo over it either.
I guess you're right, the pillar could have done it but was it the result of the pillar being there, or is it the hole from the excavation?:choc:

[lilwil32]

nah its no lunar cry its a missile crater .. no?:cool:

[MJN SEIFER]

How Do we Know Trabia cn't fly? Maybe It tried to get out the way of the Missles but just werent fast enough! so that hole is Trabia's origonal Location!

[Big D]

Trabia Garden was seriously damaged by the missile strike, many parts of it were almost destroyed, including that disc-like 'blade' which is an integral part of the flight of both B-Garden and G-Garden.

Trabia had no way to know that the missile strike was coming. Even if there was someone capable of flying the Garden, how would they have known to take off?

Also, as I said earlier: That hole is huge, and has strange properties judging by what happens when B-Garden tries to fly over it. Hence the view that it has something to do with either the Crystal Pillar or Lunar Cry, rather than simply being the result of a stray missile or two.

[Besimudo]

Nah its a simple programming ploy so that you cannot see the "Laguna film" scene before disc three! If the crater was not there the player could access the scene where Laguna fights the Dragon before the flash back.

Programmers since the late 80's have used obstacles to limit game progression...

[Big D]

Certainly, it has that necessary purpose, but it's still fun to speculate on the origins and 'plot implications' of that crater.

I'm surprised that no-one's used it to prove R=U yet...;)

[Maxico]

i was confused with all the gardens flying about the place. i know they mentioned that b-garden was a shelter and had a defence mechanism but they never said any thing about the other ones. and does this mean that all of the gardens were orgianaly shelters (that seems very convenient).

well if this is just paranoid ravings after all then i would say that even if traibia garden did know them missiles were coming i dont think they would even know that the gardens COULD fly (even cid doesn't know).

[Atma Weapon]

I'm pretty sure that it is where Pupu's spaceship crashed. Pupu is the little blueish green alien if I have the name wrong.;)

[Maxico]

I thought pupu crashes in the balamb garden crater.

[Big D]

PuPu's ship doesn't crash until Squall and co. heartlessly destroy it. It explodes in the huge Esthar forest, anyway.

As for the Gardens... yeah, they're all former Centra shelters (it says so in the Tutorial) but very few people would have any idea that they can actually fly like that, as has been said.

[Atma Weapon]

I'm talking about when pupu originally lands on Squalls world. If it's airship was fully functional than it would have left after Squall and co. attacked it. It couldn't leave and it was alien to the planet so I think pupu crash landed, creating the crater full of mysterious energy and damaging his ship, then took his damaged ship on a tourist trip around the globe. He was probally searching for elixer to repair his ship with.

[Big D]

That crater's about the size of the one left by B-Garden when it leaves, suggesting that it might be hundreds of meters across. If PuPu's ship could survive that kind of impact, surely it'd survive being whacked with swords and whips...

[Atma Weapon]

Normally I would laugh and agree, but this is final fantasy. Squall pokes a kansas sized hole in the ozone layer several times a day, and that's not even his strongest attack. The game claims that Zell moves at light speed for some of his moves. Add into the fact that pupu's ship may have been damaged or that pupu may be flying in an escape pod or something. And remember that Pupu's ship may be heat and impact resistant, but maybe not magic resistant. It could have been Pupu. :p

If Rinoa were to enter the crater than she would take on her true Ultamecia form because of all the crazy energy in the crater. So r=u=true.;)

[Big D]

...I still reckon that crater was a previous 'resting place' of the Crystal Pillar. This is one of the few explanations which has substantial supporting evidence in the game...
but it'd be kinda cool if it had something to do with PuPu, since s/he was a character whose development was sorely neglected by the plot...

[ivory]

I agree with Big D. the crater would've had to be there. i waz alwayz tryin to figure out where laguna was when he exited the lunatic pandora and then he saw that bright light. that bright light had to have been esthar. he then must of went to the shumi village which is closeby to trabia garden and the huge crack. he was discovered by the shumis after being badly injured and i bet it was because of when he fell off the cliff. of course, after shumi village, he met up with raine and she ended up healing back up to perfect health. this proves that the lunatic pandora was there.

[Besimudo]

Big D, well said. I am very surprised that this crater we speak of has not been implicated in the R=U theory.
But then that may make a little too much sense for our entertainment.

As for ivory; good to see someone keeping in character! However, I would advise that you remain consistent in your posts. After all a little Crono Cross sentimentality never harmed any body.

This crater issue is one of the few areas my rational mind succeeds in. Although, as unexciting as it may seem, I believe that the crater is just a programming device. The few plot associations are merely "vapour ware"... It is about as interesting as the fact that the position of the chocobo forests are almost cardinal directions... I must emphasise the word almost.

I could argue that the chocobo forest is a Taoist retreat. In the future these locations are the solitary refuge from Ultimacia’s time compression and supposedly align with the directions of the Taoist symbol. The guardian of the chocobo forest is a child, who is in essence another symbol of the changing/growing nature of the Tao. The adult material world that exists in the cities has obviously perished in the future, while the magical world of childhood remains untarnished. However, in reality the survival of the chocobo forest acts merely as transportation apparatus to reach the spaceship Ragnarok! The programmers chose to present a problem to the gamer by making the spaceship on first glimpses inaccessible, as Squall can hardly traverse the ocean. Therefore, the gamer was forced to devise a way to reach the Ragnarok. It turns out that one can traverse shallow water atop a chocobo, and thus successfully reach the ragnarok on Disc 4.

In conclusion, it is quite obvious that the phenomena of the crater and the chocobos (my example) exist simply as neat mediums to serve the material “gaming” element of FF8. One can hardly claim to glean truths or even factual information about these events. The fact that these issues are neglected by the plot further cements my contention; that the programmers merely had physical intentions for these locations.

[Vapourizer]

I dont think that the hole was just somthing the programmers put in to use as a wall, cause the best thing to use for that is a wall its self. Why put a big hole there when they could put a wall... I myself think it is the place where the first lunar cry hit. i might have even read something like that in the tutorial. I dont have ff8 anymore but my memory is still fresh( I hope :p ) and if it was actually pupu's plane then that would really surprise me.

[Besimudo]

No, the Luna cry hit the desert continent Centra!

A wall would look messy in a forest setting. Shining force 2 (Sega) utilised rivers to prevent premature progression. Landstalker (sega) blocked the player by a landslide...only to latter have it cleared by a tribe of grateful locals (the player completes a mission for them, so that favour is returned).

In FF7 progression is delayed by landforms, which are surmountable only by latter developments.

The other factor I mentioned was the fact that the crater is neglected by the plot and this further cements the utilitarian nature of the crater, primarily as a "wall".
If the crater was significant to the plot, then the authors would have introduced auxiliary storyline; such as the style of the deep sea laboratory!


The evidence is so open ended (in a bad way, which is not very common). That one could argue that there is a 5th garden! this would be consistent with the taoist numerology (as Asian tradition is subtly played in FF8 along side the strong Christian elements)

Anyhow, 5 is important to the Taoists, so we see:

Balam: fire
Galbadia: metal
Trabia: wood
White SeeD: water
???? Garden: earth

We can demonstrate this universal relationship in the fact that....Fire can overcome metal (Balam beats galbadia)...Metal can cut down wood (galbadia bombs trabia) The white seed move like water, and are harmed by nobody (except when Ultimecia takes control; The tao must move and as a symbol "water" being closest to the "way", the white seed cannot exist physically without change. After all Ultimecia eliminates the physical order by removing time.

The final garden is always present, but as the "earth" figure nobody pays much attention to it. Perhaps the crater has something to do with the invisible non accounted for theme of the ????? garden.

FF8 holds a certain "invisible" element. This theme also plays on the mind at the beginning of the game with the mysterious eastern nation (esthar).

[Big D]

Earth Garden... an interesting concept.
No, the Luna cry hit the desert continent Centra!
Well, the previous Lunar Cry destroyed Centra. And why? Because the Crystal Pillar was there. We know, from Laguna's sequence, that the Lunatic Pandora was definitely in Trabia, at least for a time - probably when Esthar was messing around with it. I reckon that crater is where it was stored or hidden while they were figuring it out.

Of course, the crater is there to impede progress above all else, but it's still interesting to contemplate the 'real' reason for it being there.

[Besimudo]

In the "film" scene (disc 3) Laguna sees lunatic Pandora taking flight...Yet the direction is to the east, rather than to the west (the location of the crater).

If we analyse the plot; Laguna investigates Esthars secret operation and after escaping becomes sick. After recovery from illness, he conveniently finds work right next to the very military excavation he was forced to escape from!
Additionally, it seems a bit odd that a film maker would choose "area 51" as a place to film a parody of St George (slaying of the dragon).... would you not agree Big D?


As you can see, I am convinced that there are practically no tangible explanations for the crater! The crater is truly on the same level as childhood myths, it inspires a certain discomforting revelation... sometimes it is better to ask the right questions, than having all the answers.
Quite simply, the crater poses this problem to the player. The sighting of the alien UFO's also plays on the mind in this very manner.

The idea of the "earth garden" can only be inferred by the notion of "what is not". There is absolutely no evidence of such a faculty in the game.
If anything the 5th garden may actually be the Ragnarok. Perhaps the crater was caused by the crash landing of a previous model.

[CloudDragon]

Very nice thinking there Besimudo. But think of this, know there is the theory of an Earth Garden and all, but it leaving its place I don't think would make all the cracks in the Crust around the spot where it supposedly is.

Also, I believe if it was only merely there to stop progression, why not just make it a mountain of some sort. I really don't think it was the Lunar Cry, as it is stated in the tutorial that it hit Centra 80 years ago, destroying the continent.

Possibly a Missile and then thinking that a few missiles took out Trabia and part of it is still standing, one wouldn't make a crater THAT big. So really it could be the Lunatic Pandora, but I don't know of anything else.

[Big D]

Well, the Lunar Cry that inundated Centra can't have been the only one. It's evidently a recurring phenomenon.
If we analyse the plot; Laguna investigates Esthars secret operation and after escaping becomes sick. After recovery from illness, he conveniently finds work right next to the very military excavation he was forced to escape from!
I don't recall Laguna do any investigating before then... I always assumed he got hurt during another disastrous misadventure, then ended up in Shumi Village.

Anyway, the Canyon is quite a long way from the Crystal Pillar's location. Lunatic Pandora is over a mile high, yet it's just a glinting speck on the horizon when Laguna sees it.

[Besimudo]

G... G .... GESHP!!!!!!!!!

You come from a time of 'real' RPGs... by the way...

"he likes you, but I cant tell you who HE is".

I never worked this SF3 problem out.. I always believed it to be Volcanon... but why would he send a faery? Or perhaps it is Creed, he was linked with the faeries!!

Yes a stray nuke is the most reasonable answer.
Trabia is a bit of a hole after the whole war... One little question I always had was why Seifer was nerver charged with 'war crimes' ...

P.S. that was quick big D...

Laguna goes to the lunatic site in disc 1... he jumps off into the sea to escape the esthar crew!

[Doomgaze]

Those were cruise missiles, not nukes. Trabia wouldn't have survived a direct hit from an ICBM.

Anyway, I'd agree that it's clearly where Esthar found the pillar.

"I don't recall Laguna do any investigating before then... I always assumed he got hurt during another disastrous misadventure, then ended up in Shumi Village."

I think one of the Shumi mention Laguna having an accident of some sort, but I'm not sure.

[Big D]

Laguna goes to the lunatic site in disc 1... he jumps off into the sea to escape the esthar crew!Lunatic Pandora was still in Centra at that point. Esthar hadn't begun moving it... it was still being excavated. He wound up in Winhill after his escape, anyway.

[MagicKnight Locke]

Btw that hole had to resemble something in the storyline because even if youd go over it to the mountain tange where you fought the ruby dragon u appear in the area that is surrounded with a mountain range and those flashy walls.So even if you cross the nasty gap you couldnt reach esthar...

Id say the lunatic pandora thing is interesting...

[Besimudo]

Master Zhuge Liang

Laguna, Ward and Kiros were sent in disc 1 to investigate lunatic Pandora (we know this due to the interior)....Squall later visits lunatic Pandora (many years later).

I hope this factor is understood.

My contention is... If the crater was the result of esthars excavation (the one laguna investigates) then why would he return to the same area (to film a movie) after being chased out by Esthar troops????

Also Esthar had completed the project when laguna films the dragon movie... are you tying to tell me that they a.. excavated it from the "crater site" then built the massive structure, all in the time it took for Laguna to return!

The events seem a little mixed up... but if that is indeed the same site, when laguna investigated Esthar excavation, the timing is a out and I am certain that Laguna would not return to that exact location in a hurry...

[Big D]

I'm not saying it's the same site; as a matter of fact we know that it's somewhere completely different. All I'm suggesting is that Esthar excavated the Crystal Pillar from Centra, which we know, then moved it to Esthar, which we also know... I'm suggesting that the Trabia Crater is kind of like a cubby hole where they stored the Pillar before it was moved to the Research Facility where Odine played with it.

[ShadyMilkman]

WARNING: INCREDIBLY STUPID REPLY BELOW!!!!!





Maybe that's where Eden came from. Maybe when he was born, it created a massive explosion, due to his extreme power! Then, because he was s distraught because of him killing his mother, he ran away to Warship Island, and Bahamut and Ultima Weapon decided to take care of him. :D

[celtcknight]

This thread is old now but never answered. To go with Big D taoist discussion, How about the crator being the place where the crystal pillar was found along with Eden. (Eden the garden of eden, the final guardian force) It makes sense that when Esthar troops excavated, they were excavating eden, and its power. They had problems with the fact there's an Ultima Weapon running around in the pandora and sank it where it was later found by the deep research facility by Galbadia and Ultima Weapon (with the power of Eden) was left behind. Remember "the Rocks are resinating" like the crystal pillar, perhaps it has something to do with Edens power and presence.

Im surprised noone has tied this together. Besides also isnt george and the dragon, Esthar, Garden of Eden, all biblical proportions?

And yes im sure that the crater was put there to stop players form reaching esthar to early, but they would have just used a river, or a mountain, since b garden cant scale a mountain. A crater was put there for a hard thinker to analyze, like all of us, not to JUST prevent.

[Besimudo]

"And yes im sure that the crater was put there to stop players form reaching esthar to early, but they would have just used a river, or a mountain, since b garden cant scale a mountain. A crater was put there for a hard thinker to analyze, like all of us, not to JUST prevent."


Please do not accuse me of wading in the babies pool when it comes to FF analysis. In the past, I was the member being ridiculed for the blunt and domesticated response "your going too deep". Perhaps the summer break has rejuvinated my FF spirit, thereby enabling a return to eoff posts (dealing with people who refuted Lagunas paternity was taxing to say the least).
In this post I delibrately chose to present the obvious; demonstrating how absurdly deep everyone had gazed into what is merely a hole!

[FinalDreamer]

nah couldnt b the missiles ...they said there was a force that made the garden function badly .... i still think the luna pandora theory is the one ......

[Chibi Youkai]

I do believe that the crater is where Lunatic Pandora resided. It just makes more sense that way, and if you look over during the time Laguna is doing that movie thing, you can see the pillar, as I recall, but I could be wrong.