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Besimudo
07-23-2003, 05:09 AM
While FF8 continues the Greek comedic tradition of other FF titles, many people consider it to be the outcast. This is not surprising; as what appears to be a superficial love story is actually an in-depth classical look into the higher (eternal) elements of the human condition. Many love FF7 which delt with modern economic and environmental pressures, it provided a mature facade of interesting characters. FF9 gave us a hint of Hans Christian Anderson, spiced up with Disney like characters. Finally FF10 delivered a rather disappointingly overt and shallow plot, which at best revived (perhaps trivialised) the mythical age.

The FF do there themes well, FF8 is considered by some analysts to be the only one with a "fully" esoteric game in the series. I understand that for many FF8 was inaccessible, and perhaps this is the main factor that defiles its FF reputation. I contend that FF8 may have been better served under a different name.. As games such as Vagrant story and Chrono cross which happen to be on the same level of classical learning as FF8 enjoyed their own status... whereas FF8 will alway remain in the "you either Love it, or you hate it" Basket.

Anyhow do you believe FF8 should be an FF title...?

Wightraven
07-23-2003, 07:19 AM
There's no reason to argue the "shoulds", FFVIII IS a Final Fantasy and that's that.

By the by, I find it absolutley loverly that a person can correctly use words like "esoteric" and make reference to HCA and subtle or not-so-subtle allegories, but still screw up "their/there".

Big D
07-23-2003, 09:32 AM
FFVIII has too much in common with the other FFs for it to be categorised as something different. It's a part of the style, the series.

Every game in the series has its detractors and its loyal fanbase. Those who love and those who hate. Changing the name just to suit a few would be pretty pointless; it was, however, done as a marketing ploy with the game known in the West as 'Final Fantasy Mythic Quest', if I remember correctly.

By the way, good point about the grammatical oddity, Wightraven.
;)

TheAbominatrix
07-23-2003, 09:43 AM
Mystic Quest, Big D. And excellent point, by the by.

Besimudo
07-24-2003, 03:03 AM
Yes I find it “absolutley loverly” that people are more willing to criticise these days than contribute. It is amazing that our members can actively participate in lower criticism, yet when it come to higher everybody goes mute. I have an excuse for poor grammar; it is Bruce week at uni and I must admit that I am a seasoned alcohol...

Oh by the way Raven would you like to discuss modern Danish Literature in respect to the moral presuppositions?


I fostered the golden age of analysis along with Cyan and that Dutch guy....What has happened since?

As for Big D I ask why you cannot be Ar$ed in beginning a V.S. thread...?

Wightraven
07-24-2003, 04:30 AM
Well, someone's found a bug up their bum. I shall tackle your questions/points as they arose, as I can't be arsed to quote you...

1. "Loverly" is not a typo, I intentionally used the word. See the song "Wouldn't it be Loverly?".

2. I DID contribute, though I kept my opinion succinct. You'll recognize it as the short blurb before my delight at grammar problems.

3. No I would not like to discuss modern Danish literature, as I do not read things written by Danes. Not out of prejudice, mind you, just out of simple lack of anything Danish to lay my eyes on.

4. Is this really the place to bring up off-topic questions to D? I believe this site features a PM system... oh wait, how ironic as this IS off-topic. *whistles innocently*

Besimudo
07-24-2003, 05:00 AM
Oh, I see that you are an expert on broad way musicals.

The intention of this tread was to attract those members discontent with FF8, without succumbing to an FF7 Vs FF8 style flame session. The issues of FF8’s title have become the topic of many threads and although I concede that FF8 is similar to other FF in many structural elements, the game may have been appreciated on its own merits, had it another title.

Big D
07-24-2003, 05:26 AM
Now now, children, play nicely or you'll get banned with no supper.:p

If FFVIII had another title, it'd just get more criticism for being a 'Final Fantasy clone'. Each of the games have their own mertis; some are simply more meritorious than others, and any assessment of those merits is entirely a matter of personal opinion. There are, after all, those who consider FFVI the apex of the series' development while others have no time for it at all.

Giving FFVIII another name could be seen by some as merely an attempt to distance it from its predecessors and successors - or them from it - by denying the nature and importance of the works that helped to shape it.

As for the Vagrant Story idea... Wightraven is correct; PMs do exist for a reason. It's strange that you wrote your message in this thread rather than simply clicking the 'Reply' button at the bottom of the PM I originally sent you.

I can't be bothered starting any threads on VS's religion since I already enjoy and appreciate it and all its myriad details. I'd happily contribute to a discussion, but I don't have any pressing questions to ask therefore I don't feel like starting a thread on it.

Now, not another word on this matter in this thread.;)

Wightraven
07-24-2003, 06:01 AM
No, I'm not an expert. I am a Jack of all trades; master of none.

Anywhoo, I just wrote up a near-four page essay on why I don't like FFVIII, but my ISP decided to crap out on me JUST when I hit the 'send' button, so now it's forever lost. I also decided that I don't feel like retyping it, as my various points have been made throughout this board.

Good day.

BG-57
07-28-2003, 01:53 AM
To get back to the original question, I think it should be an FF title (besides the title of course). It includes many items/monsters/weapons featured throughout the FF series. The spells are recognizable from previous FF games. The summon monsters all have been in previous games in one form or another (except maybe Diablos and Eden).

My favorite example is the Ultima Weapon carries a weapon that is identical in appearance to Cloud Strife's Ultima Weapon from FFVII. Not similar, the same!

Wightraven, that happens to me sometimes. If I'm making a long post, I periodically copy the text. That way, I can paste it in later if I'm prevented from posting.

TheAbominatrix
07-28-2003, 02:03 AM
VIII just didnt have the right feel for me... it was superficial and cold, the love story was a forced one, and a wrong one. Rinoa was veyr superficial, and most of the characters were so 2-d I wanted to scream. And I'm refering to their personalities. They were all stereotypical, and very few of them had any character development at all. They all more or less end the game the same people they were when it began. Time Compression was ridiculous, Ultimecia seemed kind of thrown in at the end there, and the whole thing didnt flow together like an FF should.

Does that mean there should be a name change? Not really. A great series is bound to have a fluke here and there, may as well get it over with. Square seems to have learned from it's mistakes.

PhoenixAsh
07-28-2003, 02:35 AM
I loved FFVIII, and it is very much an FF. It differs in style slightly, that's about it. It is a shame that FF's name has become so focused on the battle system. I would love to try a real time game with the story, magic and monsters of FFs.


Besimudo:

The intention of this tread was to attract those members discontent with FF8, without succumbing to an FF7 Vs FF8 style flame session.

Besimudo you started most if not all of the recent occurances of this that I've seen.
I have asked you many times to justify your belief that FFVIII is somehow intellectually superior to the rest with out comparing it to something else and ignoring the games content, you have yet to attempt this ever.

Zild
07-28-2003, 04:58 PM
I guess the question is, what makes a game "A FF title"? (Aside from the obvious answer of being called Final Fantasy Whatever... ;) )

Personally, I think it has many of the same elements as 7,8,9 and 10... in particular, I believe it does have the scale - perhaps more so than others, at times...

I wonder if perhaps those who argue it shouldn't be an FF title only do so because they were disappointed with it? I must admit that I will now religiously buy every FF numbered title that gets released where I live, from now on... yet the only other Squaresoft game I've ever bought is Vagrant Story (perhaps that's unfair on the other titles; as an aside, there were many things about VS that I would love to see appear in a FF numbered game...)

Actually, that's just made me think... (how rare!) If you compare the FF numbered games to, for example, VS, what do you see?

Whilst VS had great gameplay, I feel it lacked the graphical quality, scale and length of the FF games. Even more, it just wasn't made crisp enough. The game itself was great, lovely (loverly) playability alone was enough for me - I remember seeing it advertised on TV (never seen FF advertised on TV...) and instantly promosied myself I would buy it...

So, basically scale, graphical quality (particularly long FMVs) and length, with a huge number of side-quests, makes a Final Fantasy game. Throw in some all-too-lengthy flashbacks that you have to play, and some chocobos (were there chocobos in 8?) and you have a FF game. Oh, and add a great cinematic-style opening too - which 8 easily wins one!

So Final Fantasy 8 is just that - Final Fantasy 8.

Rand Al'Tor
07-28-2003, 07:47 PM
I fostered the golden age of analysis along with Cyan and that Dutch guy....

I don't know if you refer to me but *eyebrow twitches slightly* I'm Belgian. That would be like calling you a New-Zeelander.

aaaanyway.

Wouldn't say that FFVIII should be known as anything else then FFVIII. It fits nicely among all the others. (except it has no moogles. It should have moogles) Sure, there are more references to various mythologies in FFVIII then most others (as far as I know) Doesn't make it so much better then any other final fantasy that it should not be 'lumped in the same corner' Nor would I say that VIII is 'deeper' or 'more meaningful' then any of the others. Final Fantasy VIII is a Final Fantasy, worthy of the series, and the series is worthy of it. (is that proper English? Ah what the heck)

BTW Besimundo, if you REALLY want to get your 'analysis-groove' on, I can recommend Neon Genesis Evangelion. Be warned though it's a mindf.......*looks at Modertaors* a mind....twisting....thingy....

*cough*

that was all.

Besimudo
07-30-2003, 04:55 AM
Yes I have seen the End of Evangelion... It amazes me how it required the Japanese to finally address Christian eschatology in a modern relevant manner. Evangelion like FF8 appeals to the classical themes, and it seems many modernists are unable to appreciate them.

I could not help but notice the “anti ff8” sentiment emerging in this thread.

If Squall is 2-D compared with Cloud; then explain why Squalls plot implications are metaphysical (classical god defying hero), while Clouds are material (mental break down, sinister cloning experiments). I think we can agree that FF7 draws from Metropolis and Frankenstein, whereas FF8 draws from The Odyssey. In FF7 themes have physical origins, Jenova (aliens) while in FF8 themes have mythical origins, sorceress (god)… Also the fact that FF7s themes are understood by more of the population is more than enough proof that FF8 is the “higher” of the two.

PhoenixAsh
07-30-2003, 05:13 AM
Me

Besimudo you started most if not all of the recent occurances of this that I've seen. (FFVII/FFVIII debates)
I have asked you many times to justify your belief that FFVIII is somehow intellectually superior to the rest with out comparing it to something else and ignoring the games content, you have yet to attempt this ever.

Besimudo

If Squall is 2-D compared with Cloud; then explain why Squalls plot implications are metaphysical (classical god defying hero), while Clouds are material (mental break down, sinister cloning experiments). I think we can agree that FF7 draws from Metropolis and Frankenstein, whereas FF8 draws from The Odyssey. In FF7 themes have physical origins, Jenova (aliens) while in FF8 themes have mythical origins, sorceress (god)… Also the fact that FF7s themes are understood by more of the population is more than enough proof that FF8 is the “higher” of the two.

Were you intentionally doing everything I said or are you just predictable?
FFVII's themes are some of the least understood in the series. Hell even if you don't dig underneath the main plot is hard to grasp.
FFVIII had the most two-dimensional characters in all the recent series so far, it had the simplest plot, it had probably the least imaginative battle system (though it's one of my favourates). Just because it might have ripped off some book that most gamers never read doesn't make it clever.

Big D
07-30-2003, 05:23 AM
PhoenixAsh makes several good points.

It doesn't prove much simply to say "FFVIII is intellectually superior, because it has divine themes, because divine themes are inherently superior, because they're divine, which makes them superior."

It's something of a matter of opinion... Humanistic themes are considered 'superior' by some because they examine aspects of who and what we are, as opposed to "higher" themes which serve to remind us of old stores, but tell us little of relevance to ourselves.

I could not help but notice the “anti ff8” sentiment emerging in this thread.
Maybe people don't share your opinion of FFVIII; that's entirely up to them. Just because they like it less doesn't mean that they hate it completely. Constructive criticism is a good way of looking at a game. I, for one, particularly enjoy both FFVIII and IX, though I've been openly critical of certain elements of them both.

Wightraven
07-30-2003, 06:01 AM
OK, I took my break for flaming that person about FF7 Big Brother to calm down. Now I shall debate.

*twitches fingers*

First off, I'd like to say I back the fact that FFVIII is 2-D and FFVII is rather deep. Not because I don't understand one or the other, and not because I can't make any litereary correlations (though I don't, as that's just something I don't do), but because it's reinforced by the sheer presentation of the characters and plot.

The only dynamic characters in FFVIII were Squall and Edea, and they weren't all that dynamic. Squall became a TAD bit softer, and Edea became good again. That's it.

Now, if you'll look at FFVII (which I'm only using as an example as it's what's been brought up thus far) most of the characters grow and change. You'll notice Cloud goes from being an apathetic hardass to being softer, kinder, and nicer. Reverting to the way he was before his memory was shot to hell. Yes, that's just one example, but look at most of the characters in FFVII and the proof will show through, unless you're blind.

As Big D mentioned, saying FFVIII is greater because it deals with Gods is ludicrous. More ludicrous, in fact, is the idea that the Sorceresses were meant to represent Gods. Sorceresses, in my opinion, are meant to represent... let's see... SORCERESSES. Haven't you played enough FF to know that if someone is supposed to be a diety, they are?

You're reading WAY too much into it. This conversation boils down to something very trivial (the quality of FFVIII) once you tear away all the literary shite. What does it matter if FFVII is like Frankenstien, or if FFVIII is like the Odyssey (what the hell? where'd you even get this idea? A man goes off to battle, then has to find his way home while going through various trials is JUST like some kid going off to wander the world and conquer the bad guys, then face time compression. Yup. *sarcasm*), or FFIX is reminiscent of the works of HCA?

That wasn't rhetorical, by the way, explain to me why that's so important.

Rand Al'Tor
07-30-2003, 08:48 PM
Well at least the place livens up again eh? Anyway.... SPOILER WARNING FOR FFVII AND VIII, because I don't feel like marking EVERY little part.


Again, SPOILER WARNING FOR FFVII and VIII


Lessee, first, I would agree that FFVII is NOT superficial. Cloud's mental problems aren't just 'him being screwed up in the head, it's also him forsaking his own identity for an ideal (first Sephiroth by leaving the village, and then Zack, quite literarely) and how he loses his own self-value because of that, especially when the mask is torn off. Pretty valuable lesson, and I've seen it used pretty well in fanfiction. On a more 'cosmological' level, there's the whole question about the needs of the Planet versus the need of Humanity. We don't know at the end if humanity survived But the Planet itself is clearly shown as being indifferent to good and evil. The Lifestream (Planet) and Holy (which we'll say is 'good') are two different things. When it comes to 'meaningful inner message' I think VII and VIII are evenly matched.

Of course, some of us don't play for the deep meaningful message. And that is not necessarely bad. Computer games must sell, and I very much doubt Squaresoft will put the message of their game ahead of making money.

Now something I DO have to object to, is the supposed flatness of the characters. Mostly, because those characters are the main reason FFVIII is my favourite. I'll admit that, even WITH the R=U theory, purely on plot, and how it is brought, FFVII has the edge. FFVIII has some pretty dead moments and some rather silly things (yay, we're all from the same orphanage) and lacks the twists (When the REAL Cloud took off his helmet, genius) when it comes to characters, to me, FFVIII falls short.

Sure, they've got great backgound stories. But background stories fall under 'plot' And yes, the FFVII characters all have their chances to 'devellop' Problem for me is... they're cool alright, they look really cool... but they just don't live. And they hardly interact. I've get the impression that I have just a bunch of (nicely crafted) 'heroes', each with their designated spotlight time to uncover their background and Great Personal Tragedy, after which they just go further. Sure, they change, but it seems so... fake.... artificial to me. And they only seem to come up at the right 'scene'

FFVIII came across as a group of people, each with their own small sides, living together, reacting to each other, liking, loving and sometimes resenting each other. Sure, their background isn't as well crafted as the VII characters. And no, there is no real point where you can say 'here they changed in a deep and meaningul way for the rest of their lives' But does it work that way in real life? Still, I would say there IS developement. Irvine's dropping of the 'I'm a loner' mask, revealing to be someone who resents feeling 'left out' especially by the orphanage people. Selphie, whose cheerful innocence is marred by a thirst for vengeance after the fall of Trabia Garden. Zell, who starts out by almost being to Squall what Cloud was to Sephiroth, seems to gain some self-respect towards the end. Quistis, emotionally dependant and overprotective at the start, learns to take some distance. It's not the 'Great Shocks' of FFVII, but in their own way, they male the characters alive to me. And in my game, I rather have an occasionally whiny, but alive Squall Lionheart, then the Larger then live, but less believable Cloud Strife.

PhoenixAsh
07-30-2003, 09:50 PM
Thanks D.

Rand Al'Tor you make good points about character developement. But the trouble is the characters themselves with the exception of Zell and Squall can be summed up so quickly.

Quistis, I'm a loser, I leave quickly though.
Selphie, I'm hyper, even when bad things happen.
Irvine, did ANYONE think through my character?
Rinoa, I like men, if one dies I get a new one.
Seifer, I'm a classic rival, my motives and attitudes reflect this.
Edea, I'm caring but was used for evil.
Ultimecia, most people view me as some random bad guy who's evil for the sake of it.
Laguna, I'm a moron, a lucky one.
Cid, my character fills jobs, and they had to have a Cid somewhere.

Rand Al'Tor
07-30-2003, 10:12 PM
Don't really think your descriptions do them justice. I mean, for example

Cloud: Arrogant, feelingless bastard changed to screwed in the head angstboy changed to classic hero
Tifa: Caring childhood friend tomboy
Aeris: Sweet mysterious girl
Barret: Angry resistance fighter
Yuffie: Arrogant, untrustworthy thief
Vincent: Angst
Cait Sith: What the hell...?

This description is NOT what they are, as I think your descriptions are unfair to the VIII characters. I think some of my points in character developement show that there's more to it then the 'one sentence description'

PhoenixAsh
07-30-2003, 10:29 PM
I know I dumbed them down a bit for impact, but really what more was there to a lot of them?
Your FFVII ones were only for example, but still they were far more exaggerated than mine.

Besimudo
07-31-2003, 03:00 AM
Reductionism simply wont work here!

If one were stupid enough he could proclaim that:

FF7 = Armageddon action style rip off

FF8 = high school romance style rip off.

These type of analysis bite about as deep as a horse!
Everyone has herd them before and we are all quite tired of them.


Firstly, FF8 has a corporate and professionally modern feel right from the start. The corruption of key power figures is vivid throughout the game, presented in a realistic fashion. Dollet was invaded, the garden is in debt and Galbadia has experience political transition.
These factors have historical contributors that work on the macro level (the characters react to the present). FF7 on history is a little less gelatinous...We see the tyranny of capitalism and modern economic turmoil, yet the history is given as a simple explanation...By none other than the main Characters (the game reacts to the characters). This is fatal flaw number one...FF7 has little advancement on early themes latter in the game. In FF8 we discover through the characters investigation why events at the start occurred. In FF7 the narrative style proceeds with the game...This eliminates the tense of information flow. As you all know information unfortunately flows after the event, we are never fully informed when something occurs. The neglected information adds to the professional feel to FF8. As Hitchcock stated "In a plot less is better than More".. And FF7 certainly feeds us more than we require, often repeating points as if the player was too stupid to comprehend it the first time round.

On to the characters... I always questioned the interaction between the FF7 characters... I mean Yuffie and Vincent were tacked on at the last minute. This is evident by their sudden taking of leave in the end sequence. Where were Vincent and Yuffie, did they experience stage fright before the final FMV sequence and decide split before the director noticed?
At least FF8 had full intros and budget allocation for all the leads....I believe that even sub parts receive time on FMV. Unless this pragmatism is misdirected by some collective consent (the FF7 boys club) I stand absolutely correct, on argumentative merits...

As for Cloud Vs Squall... Quite simply I lost all respect for cloud when he had a mental break down! At least Squall was true to the warrior tradition, never considering his actions on moral grounds. To Squall being a warrior was his divine vocation; to Cloud it was a lie.

Wightraven
07-31-2003, 05:37 AM
*sighs* I see now. FFVII vs FFVIII all over again. Damn. And I was hoping for some intelligent conversation...

... ah well. As a last note I say that FFVIII was my least favorite FF (besides II and III which I haven't played through yet) for the same reasons FFVII is higher on my list (somewhere around four or five), those reasons being that the characters were crap, the system was atrocious, and the story was undeveloped in VIII (obviously the opposite in VII). Interestingly enough, the few reasons I LIKED VIII were reasons why VII isn't higher on my list; good translation, nice graphics.

VIII and VII both have their good points and bad points, but the MAIN point is that it's a Final Fantasy. A bad Final Fantasy is almost always better than a good other brand RPG.

Personally I suggest you just agree to disagree, as there's obviously not going to be any convincing either of you groups of the other's opinion.

This is the last I'll say on the matter, unless one of my points is brought into direct contention.

Good day.

Advent Child
07-31-2003, 08:29 AM
I don't see your point. You believed FFVIII had a story that was too deep to be a final fantasy?

As for being party of the story, even if that game was named "Joey's adventures in Pop-tart land" I'd have still thought it was an FF. Mainly because of the gameplay I guess. Summons, Magic, Fighting, and Abilities. Seems like an FF to me.

And listen to Wightraver no one wants to read
"FFVII IS BETTAIRE!!1//"
"NO YUO AER TEH SUX!11/ FFVIII IS TEH SUPERIOR!!111/"

However, wight, your use of the phrase "agree to disagree" bothers me. People already agree that they disagree when they argue. If they asked each other "do we disagree?" then the answer would be yes from both sides. The entire POINT of the arguement is that both sides disagree upon a fact, and both sides KNOW that they disagree, so if they wanted to make an agreement upon said fact, it would be pretty redundant, and thus no point in making the agreement in the first place, which eliminates the need for the phrase. I hate it when people say that phrase. Anyways, back to the thread with you.

Wightraven
08-03-2003, 11:40 PM
Hmm... never thought of it that way, lj. When I say "agree to disagree" it's meant to carry the connotation "and shut the hell up about it", therefore keeping the two parties from arguing over a point that neither is going to concede to.

*smiles cutely, meaning no harm*

PhoenixAsh
08-04-2003, 12:04 AM
Besimudo:

On to the characters... I always questioned the interaction between the FF7 characters... I mean Yuffie and Vincent were tacked on at the last minute. This is evident by their sudden taking of leave in the end sequence. Where were Vincent and Yuffie, did they experience stage fright before the final FMV sequence and decide split before the director noticed?

You are kidding right? Vincent and Yuffie were bonus characters. You can hardly praise VIII for not having any.


You're other reason for liking VIII is because it doesn't have as much plot detail? Well that's interesting.

TheSpoonyBard
08-04-2003, 12:49 AM
Rather than argue about this why doesn't somebody try to contact Square and ask them about it? I can't see why Final Fantasy VIII needs to justify it's existence, and I don't think it needs justification from anyone else. There is nothing anybody can do to remove it from the Final Fantasy series, so why don't you accept that it is what it is - a part of the Final Fantasy series.

Square have made between 12-15 Final Fantasy games, and I'm sure they are not to everyone's taste. They've had to experiment with their games to see which ones were successful and which were not. If you personally do not like Final Fantasy VIII, then don't play it. If you do enjoy it, then happy gaming.

Besimudo
08-04-2003, 04:47 AM
I would just like to clarify with raven, that the sorceress is the descendent of the great Hyne (god).. So the sorcs do have a mythical origin.. as I pointed out... but no you doubted me...and i guess you shouldn’t have....

As for phoenix.... Shining force 2 had bonus characters, they offer little to the plot and cheapen the main characters.

By the way this is the order of your criticism, so I thought Id try the phoenix style...and I guess it has worked. At least FF8 does not have "bonus" characters....What is FF7 a game of Bingo or something?



Note: you could have discussed how Vincent related to Frankenstein’s monster, arther than calling him a "bonus" character... opps but then Raven will claim we are going too far again!

... and the materia system was more fool proof. I still laugh at people who cannot junction correctly and have Zell kill FF8 bosses in one limit break! These inadequates are the sort that has to win the game by summoning GFs. The first time I cleared the game (notes that I have only played FF8 twice) I was able to kill Adel in two limit breaks...the second time I killed Adel with one limit break....

This is a major criticism of FF8 that Junctioning was crap...but in fact it is the people who cannot junction that are foolish.

PhoenixAsh
08-04-2003, 05:04 AM
I chose the word "bonus" as I felt you would use "extra" to make them sound cheap and tagged on. I should have said secret.

Not to get to FFVII spoilery, but in no way did Yuffie or Vincent cheapen anything. Vincent added huge amounts towards tieing together the character histories, and delving into the darker side of Shinra. Yuffie added a lot to the world of VII, showing the sort of lifestyle and moral code that would be associated with the slums of Midgar spread right across the globe to the beautiful and tranquil Wutai.


I agree with everything you said about the battle system though.

Wightraven
08-04-2003, 01:52 PM
Besimudo, the way you use your words I can't help but percieve you've taken things a little TOO personally (something I myself am guitly of at times... a lot of times). However, you've failed to answer the question I posed; what does it matter if storylines/styles/characters/etc. parallel or resemble that of authors and other creative folk?

Again, that's not rhetorical. I want a bloody answer.

Secondly...


I still laugh at people who cannot junction correctly and have Zell kill FF8 bosses in one limit break!

How is that a good thing? This is my problem with the system of FFVIII; it's easy to abuse, dropping the challenge of the game to nil. I'm sorry, I'd rather have a game where my party has weaknesses and fighting the bosses is a challenge to one where I am God and all crumble to dust in my path.

Just my opinion of course, and my opinion matters just as much as all of yours.

Besimudo
08-05-2003, 05:51 AM
Raven you may or may not be aware of the collective conscience…The fact is that Authors use themes for other works in designing the story, characters and imagery. In the same way the average people automatically assume that certain things make sense in todays world, based on opinions that seem rational (largely Keynes, Darwin and Marx)… writers are also influenced by this same conscience. The only difference is that Sqaure are obviously well read in mythical scripture; these mythical themes are the type that mad people (so called eccentrics by the masses) identify with…and say “hey this scene is analogous to the coming of noahs floods (see FF7s arrival of the weapons) or Vincent is similar to Frankenstein’s monster…. And for FF8 one could say that Squall and Laguna are manifestations of Loki and Fenrir, as they are father and son…and they defy the gods. As Al’ pointed out even the name of the ship “ragnarok” relates to the Norse Armageddon. Or you could in Christian tradition (as I have previously) illustrated Laguna as the anti-Christ….he is charming to women, yet the women who knew Laguna meet a tragic end. The people love him this is reminiscent of Revelations. He leads a secular community and as I pointed out the arrival of the monsters signifies the same downfall as in centra. Laguna even has the devils luck…he is clumsy, yet he always comes out victorious. The Anti-Christ is not some arch demon, it is a beautiful and kind person who is inspirational to the masses.

So what does it matter… A lot. Good literature follows the basic forms that one cannot possibly present consciously. A good writer like an inventor enters a trance like state where it all happens…then Vola, Eureka it all makes sense. If you examine great works they contain multitudes of information that applies over all time. Good works never need updating as they are correct forever.

FF8 appeals to the higher level, much like any great work… the characters and the plot are secondary to absolute ideas. The whole eschatological theme is played out subtly, much like in myths…first there is political unrest…then war.. and then destruction. FF7 did this similarly with a comet, FF8 stuck with tradition and used humans as the vehicle of demise. This was my problem with FF7 and FF10 they paid to much attention to exotericism, and for this the eternal themes were lost. In FF8 most people thought it was a soap opera, much like the young scholar reading the Iliad for the first time… This is because human life revolves around human affairs..which reflect a higher order. Humans react to human events, not natural event as they do in FF7 and 10. Nature was tamed with the “titans”, it is the higher virtues that interest humanity.


“How is that a good thing? This is my problem with the system of FFVIII; it's easy to abuse, dropping the challenge of the game to nil. I'm sorry, I'd rather have a game where my party has weaknesses and fighting the bosses is a challenge to one where I am God and all crumble to dust in my path.”

This was a brilliant thing, as one could finally concentrate on the story, rather than being interrupted by the game. FF8 shed the game feel, and not surprisingly many “gamers” were displeased. Besides, FF games are still pretty easy, despite the system they use… Are you denying this factor? If anything FF8 was the most difficult…I mean look at how many inadequates complain on the internet.

TheAbominatrix
08-05-2003, 05:55 AM
*rolls her eyes at the entire conversation* It's a friggin game, not some deep, transcendant story meant to last for all time. It's just another way to say 'people dont like what I dont like because they arent educated enough to understand it'. *stays out of this thread from now on. Lord.*

PhoenixAsh
08-05-2003, 06:49 AM
I'm almost tempted to agree with Besimudo to some degree. However my criticism has always been with VIII on a normal level, which I think should be important and considered before any deeper levels.

The battle system wasn't designed to take away gameplay I thought, it added it. In other FFs you really do walk around not really taking part, you're just the one constantly pressing attack when the game tells you you can.
In VIII you could actually think and use experience to play the game skillfully instead of just using patience. First time through it was a challenge (ish), but what's the fun of playing something if you can't actually improve?

Wightraven
08-05-2003, 06:37 PM
What Abominatrix said. Damn, I really wanted to be the first to say it, too.

Ah well. As I have no new points I shall now make my exit as well. I'm sure you'll chalk this up as a victory for you, Besimudo, as you've "bettered an intellectual infereior", so go have another beer in celebration.

Rand Al'Tor
08-06-2003, 12:22 AM
Hmm... disagree there Besimudo.

Squaresoft is, first and foremost. A company. A company that wants to make MONEY. It will be secondary to coolness, immersiveness and even prettiness.

You make it sound like they had an epiphamy. That they had something they wanted to say. More likely is that they were just brainstorming about the game and someone said. "Hey, I've been reading this bible some western buddy gave me, and there's some stuff in it we could use." Trances need not be involved. Plenty of cultural influence happens on the most base of levels. Culture starts not with Mozart but with children's rhymes.

People LIKE IT when they see something they recognise in something else. THAT is the main reason why SS would put some Biblical and Norse mythology on it. Not a big meaning, just cause they know we like it. And yeah, I like to make assumptions that the world of FFVIII has some 'uncovered stuff' left (I AM one of the defenders of a sequel NOT concentrating on Laguna) But what I do IS speculation. There's always possibility B.

Square employe A: Euh...cool name for a spaceship... hey, anyone got a cool name for a spaceship?
Square Employe B: *(reading some norse mythology, or even just playing Ragnarok online or something) hmm... Ragnarok?
Square Employee A: Oh yeah, sounds cool.

It is human nature to try to find patterns in everything. And we're pretty good at it. Sometimes we even think we find them where they are not though. But really... it's great fun speculating on connections like this, and if we're wrong. No harm, no foul. It's just a game. I am pretty sure Final Fantasy VIII will not change a lot of people's lives in very great manners. So, what's wrong with some nice speculation fun?

On another note, I can't find myself going with the Laguna = Anti-Christ thing. Since we're going with a 'Genesis' feel I'm more inclined to look for fun Adam parallels. Although they are FAR from perfect.

Adam: Lilith and Eve
Laguna: Julia and Raine

Lilith: basically went with the devil afterwards
Julia: Did not go with the devil, but her daughter did go with God by becoming a Sorceress. Who is the Bad Guy really.

Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. Who apparently had a rivalry.
Laguna and Raine.... ah :skull::skull::skull::skull:....: Well I DID say it was IMPERFECT. Anyway, Cain and Abel can be constructed as Seifer and Squall.

Cain gets thrown out of mankind, and ends up with Lilith, so I've heard.
Seifer gets thrown out of Garden (Yes, yes IMPERFECT, I know. LAGUNA is supposed to be chased out of Garden but Square wanted Final Fantasy VIII, not Genesis ReMixed) and ends up fighting for the Sorceress.

...

Ahw come on people. Speculation is FUN, as long as you don't take it too seriously, and see FFVIII mainly as a FUN past of time. But to LEARN mythology, go read a book about it (please do) and to learn about life.... well... turn off the computer and go... but speculate a bit first. I'd say that with some mythological background you can add some more enjoyment of FFVIII, but Square isn't NEARLY nuts enough to spend their time and $$$ on a game that only very few people can appreciate. The mythology is the cherry on the cake. (which IS a good cake with good deep characters and nice music and.... damn I screwed up my analogy.... well, it's good characters no matter what anyone says *sticks out tongue at Phoenix Ash*)

Also (man, I shouldn't stay out of these discussions so long) The thing I LIKE about Cloud is his forsaking of all claims to warriorhood. I'm no pacifist, but I think there's something very wrong with taking pride in your ability to cause suffering and death. Take pride in the causes you fight for, never in the fighting itself.When you fight, you do it because you were unable to find a peaceful way to reach that cause. But Final Fantasy never WAS about ethics though. Neither Squall nor Cloud were motivated primarly by moral reasons. In a poetical way, I guess both had to face their fears. Cloud had to face the fear he had from the Past (his life is basically a big failure) while Squall fears the future (losing people he gets close to) By fighting Sephiroth, Cloud fights the misguided ideals of his youth and the famous general who was so much better then HIM, the failed SOLDIER, and by fighting Ultimecia, Squall fights the one that would deny his future, and more importantly, afterwards, he deals with the fact that he KNOWS he will lose Rinoa. (R=U theory) And they both are stronger, HAPPY endings all around!

Besimudo
08-07-2003, 01:19 AM
'Ah well. As I have no new points I shall now make my exit as well. I'm sure you'll chalk this up as a victory for you, Besimudo, as you've "bettered an intellectual infereior [sic] ", so go have another beer in celebration.'

Raven, your wit is sharp but unfortunately calibrated to hit non-existent targets...as Bruce week ended over a week ago, and it seems my dipsomania has receded...for now.
If you intend to remain silent on the points made regarding the game and the approach I have taken to analyse it, then I will assume that you agree with me absolutely.

'Hmm... disagree there Besimudo.'

It is about time!

'Squaresoft is, first and foremost. A company. A company that wants to make MONEY. It will be secondary to coolness, immersiveness and even prettiness.'

Shakespeare wrote for the king; overtly he supported the kings ideal, yet covertly he undermined the establishment. For example, Shakespeare recreated the murderous Macbeth in vivid detail...something the king of England would have elated. When the reader transcends the tragedy he learns the psychological condition of the tyrant and feels sympathy. Although, this theme would have evaded James I egocentric head, while only the more neutral minded people can see the truth.
What does this demonstrate? Well SS and Shakespeare required sustenance, whether it be making million dollar profits or impressing the king! This does not dwindle the fact that deeper themes exist within the works themselves.

'You make it sound like they had an epiphamy. That they had something they wanted to say. More likely is that they were just brainstorming about the game and someone said. "Hey, I've been reading this bible some western buddy gave me, and there's some stuff in it we could use.'

Interesting, are you a psychic? How do you know the exact mental processes the creators utilised?
The developmental team for FF8 is the same crew as Vagrant story and Chrono Cross...These three are undeniably Squares greatest works, and only after playing these games did I learn of the common denominator! Notice that after the team left we saw the likes of Kuja and Seymour (sephiroth clones)pop into FF9 and 10...odd is it not?

'Trances need not be involved. Plenty of cultural influence happens on the most base of levels. Culture starts not with Mozart but with children's rhymes.'

Actually, in childhood we are most creative...we only begin to intellectualise in adulthood. It is when we reflect on our childhood that we become beacons of creativity. Adults need to loose the condition of pride and often a transcendent state achieves this. The Buddha reached enlightenment, upon reflection on his childhood. My main point was that inventions and great works are inspired on a different level...This is why we see a multitude of symbolism, something the conscious mind cannot achieve so thoroughly.

'People LIKE IT when they see something they recognise in something else. THAT is the main reason why SS would put some Biblical and Norse mythology on it. Not a big meaning, just cause they know we like it. And yeah, I like to make assumptions that the world of FFVIII has some 'uncovered stuff' left (I AM one of the defenders of a sequel NOT concentrating on Laguna) But what I do IS speculation. There's always possibility B.'

Yeah, well as we have witnessed FF8 is the least popular FF game in the series. One reason being is the accessibility of the plot. Many complain that FF8 was pointless, these are the same category that describe Homers Iliad as boring... but then brag about their multiple readings of “Harry Potter”. Most people need a Big Mac with fries...and this is what most big budget RPGs cater for. We got lucky with FF8. Anyhow people like “Die Hard” type plots where the good and evil representatives are clearly defined. Mentioning the bible conjures a reaction of discontent in most people today, due to our secular inclination.

'Square employe A: Euh...cool name for a spaceship... hey, anyone got a cool name for a spaceship?
Square Employe B: *(reading some norse mythology, or even just playing Ragnarok online or something) hmm... Ragnarok?
Square Employee A: Oh yeah, sounds cool.
It is human nature to try to find patterns in everything. And we're pretty good at it. Sometimes we even think we find them where they are not though. But really... it's great fun speculating on connections like this, and if we're wrong. No harm, no foul. It's just a game. I am pretty sure Final Fantasy VIII will not change a lot of people's lives in very great manners. So, what's wrong with some nice speculation fun?'

Once again you have demonstrated your psychic ability, and it seems that my faith in it is declining... As I pointed out the 'lone wolf' Squall and the Ragnarok are a little too related not to represent the son of Loki, Fenris.

'On another note, I can't find myself going with the Laguna = Anti-Christ thing. Since we're going with a 'Genesis' feel I'm more inclined to look for fun Adam parallels. Although they are FAR from perfect.'

We see Laguna at a point in time when the religious traditions are breaking down on the planet. Laguna impressed the masses immensely and then went on a crusade against the ordained leaders (Hynes descendents). In return the great Hyne send the Armageddon as he previously did centra 80 years ago.
This cyclical theme in FF8 is another of those subconscious marvels in the game...Obviously the messenger (Rinoa) releases the monsters as a sign of Hynes scorn for humanity.
But as we know the natural order always prevails in some form of another...And this seems to occur as the humans find some way of maintaining their separation from the absolute. (time compression is analogous to the absolute, as time is an illusion found in the natural (sinful) world). If humanity embraced Hyne they would exist in harmony with the universe forever, but at the same time they would be excluded from free will!

The Adam interpretation is appreciated... just remember that the basic form is correct, even though the exoteric detail differ.. but one can expect this.

Just as I analysed Laguna, Kiros and Ward as a variation on the three brothers of Shu from Guangzhou’s Three Kingdoms....One could say that the exact specifics aren’t all there, but the basic truth is still eternal. One could also argue that SS gave Laguna 2 companions, due to FF8's 3 party battle system...but this is just reductionism.

Al' your tone in this particular post reflected my sarcasm, as Big D may recall it.... Big D was discussing the relevance of the crater south of Trabia (near the “Laguna fights the red dragon” movie scene) I retorted by saying that the crater was just a programming prop to prevent players from advancing into the scene before disc 3. Obviously, this is true, the designer placed the crater there to stop the player from accessing the location prematurely. However, discussing the plot references to the crater is more interesting than dismissing it purely as a programming tool. I was quite aware of third factor, but I just wanted to point out how frivolous material explanations can be! And it worked.

Finally, as for Cloud and Squall cutting down people... This is no different to the farmer tilling the fields, the merchant selling sake, or infact the Lawyer delivering his case. For the warrior life is bloodshed, killing and fighting...Without consideration of good and evil. Provided that the warrior follows his path perfectly, no matter what the cost, all other things are but blossom in the wind.


P.S. Just to keep in line with the name change..

I would prefer a "heartless" warrior than a self deluding nerd (as I pointed out less vividly than Al') As focused on the fact that Cloud was not so great...In actual fact he is less "cool" than Squall.

I think most people can relate to the little blond hero (Oh another similarity) in FF7 and FF9 and FF10 Gee what a coincidence! The common person can quickly differentiate the good Cloud, Zidane, Tidus from the pompous articulating Sephiroth, Kuja and Seymour.

What is it with SS and little blondies Vs tall baddies with long hair?

FF8 broke with this theme and presented the holy knight (Seifer) with the "Aryan" good guy look and made the player the underdog!