Linux?

[Yoshix]

I hear linux is far superior to windows and, have decided to try it out. I was wondering if anyone knows which one might br good for someone like me who is new to this, or if I should learn something like quickbasic to get started?

[Dr Unne]

What do you want to use it for? If you want a toy to play with or something you can set up quickly and have it automate things for you or something just to "sample", maybe try Redhat or Mandrake or something that's "easy". If you want to learn how Linux works and really have a distro you have control of and use well, Gentoo is the way to go. Gentoo takes a lot of time and effort to use and learn and set up in the beginning, but in the long run it's far easier to maintain, and it does the "hard" stuff for you while leaving most of the power in your hands.

I wouldn't really agree that Linux is far superior to Windows in every way for everyone. Some people want a computer to be a tool to use to get work done as fast as possible, and Windows is OK for that sometimes, if you don't mind a buggy piece of crap that doesn't work half the time. Some people want their computer to be a hobby, and Linux is good for that, because Linux takes a lot of time and effort, but what you end up with is something much more fun to use. Some people want something that's free because MS is a bunch of shysters, and Linux is good for that too, but only if you can get used to the many changes and quirks.

I'd suggest reading the install instructions for a bunch of distros and picking the "hardest" one you think you can handle. Gentoo is the only distro I tried that I managed to use as a total replacement for Windows, and it's what I use now. Gentoo looks hard to install, but the docs are very very complete and newbie-friendly. It also requires more learning, but to really use Redhat or Mandrake or something you'd have to eventually learn all that stuff anyways; Gentoo just makes you do it sooner.

As far as programming, you don't need to learn to program to use Linux, but it couldn't hurt. BASIC isn't going to help much though, no one uses BASIC. I did learn to program using BASIC myself, but that was 10 years ago, and no one even used it back then. It is good to teach you the fundamentals of programming, but I'd recommend Python as something that's as easy as BASIC, but also useful in the real world.

[Burtsplurt]

I'm using Mandrake at the moment, and I'm not finding it too "easy"! I'd say get something like Mandrake or Redhat first, find out if you like the ideas behind Linux (i.e. do you like doing many things the hard way, but getting lots of pleasure out of it?), and then progress onto Gentoo or Slackware or something else that'll take you a few days just to install. I want to get on to something like that eventually, but I think I'd just make a big mess if I tried now.

If you just want a taster of Linux, then try Knoppix. People usually say good things about it from what I've seen. You can just boot it off the CD without the need to install anything, so that way you can get an idea of what Linux is about without partitioning your hard drive and installing (or attempting to install!) a distribution.

www.distrowatch.com is a good place to learn about all the different Linux distributions.

Just remember: Linux is a challenge... as I'm finding out! But it's one that I'm enjoying. It just depends what you want out of a computer.

[Dr Unne]

I put "easy" in quotes because I don't think RH or Mandrake really are easy. They automate things for you, but Linux isn't the kind of OS where automation is always a good thing. It automates some stuff but leaves some of the harder stuff (searching for dependencies for example) to you. And when something breaks, you're often left completely in the dark, because you have no idea what the OS did when it was auto-setting things up for you. If you want to use Linux you have to know how it works from top to bottom. Gentoo is a good way to learn. Maybe newbies who've never touched Linux in their lives do very well with Gentoo.

[Burtsplurt]

I guess it depends on whether you want to jump in the deep-end or not. If you do, then you either sink or become a good swimmer. If you choose the shallow-end then things are easier, but you're not going to be that great because there's more to learn. I didn't want to attempt to install Gentoo, make a mess, and then give up on Linux altogether.

I do like the idea of doing things pretty much from scratch, though. The Mandrake install confused me thoroughly just because of the number of packages that were installed. Maybe I'll never need half of them (or more). That's definitely something I dislike about Mandrake.

[Endless]

You can desinstall most of them from the mandrake rpm panels (as well as add missing ones, or update them). I haven't bothered yet, but that's probably what I'll end up doing.

[dthdtghghgh]

debian is the bombiggity

[flute]

Originally posted by Niggerbird
debian is the bombiggity

quotes for truth

[Flying Mullet]

Another question for you Linux gurus out there. I also want to learn more about Linux and throw it on a box that currently runs Windows Me *shudders*. I dont have any reservations about getting my hands dirty and learning from the ground up. So here's my plan for this computer.

- I want to do a clean install of Linux on the machine, i.e. wiping out the windows on it. I have no love for ME and in the future if I tire of Linux I'll probably put 2k on it.
- I have a sounds card, video card, dvd, cd burner, etc... and don't know if there are better versions of Linux to try and run them, if it's at all possible.
- After I have a smooth machine running, I eventually want to use it for running web services, running Tomcat, Argo mail server and such.

What is the best type of Linus to run, or otherwise is there any other good info on the differences other than www.distrowatch.com?

[Dr Unne]

Not sure if there are any linux gurus here, but oh well. From my experience there are only a few ways in which distros differ.

- The install method. Some use a graphical install, some use a text-only install which is usually harder. Some do automatic partitioning, some make you do it by hand. Some set up grub or LILO for you, some make you do it. Etc. etc. The number of CDs used for the install also differs, along with how much downloading if any is required during install. Installing nowadays is much easier than it used to be though, so it shouldn't be too terrible.

- Package management. Some distros use binaries, and some use source. Binaries = precompiled programs you just download and un-zip, or have a package manager download and unzip for you. Souce = you have to compile everytying yourself, which takes much longer, but can also result in more optimized programs. The distros all have different mangers (RPM, portage, apt-get, etc.) Some require more downloading than others, so be careful. Gentoo requires so much downloading it'd be insane not to have a broadband connection.

- Structure. Some distros put files in different places. The location KDE gets installed to for example varies from distro to distro. /opt/kde, /usr/kde/, etc. There ARE standards, but not all distros follow them. Standards compliance might be something you look into.

- Kernels. The basic linux kernel is distro-independent. But some distros offer patched kernels with other "enhanced" stuff. Gentoo offers tons of kernels in addition to the "vanilla" i.e. unmodified one. So does RH I think.

- Startup scripts. This seems to vary pretty widely between distros. The format of the startup / system scripts is cryptic sometimes. Where the files go, the format of the files, runlevels, screwy crap like that.

- Customized programs. RH for example offers a "customized" version of KDE and Gnome, with RH-specific things added to it (and some stuff taken away). Other distros like Gentoo for example give you straight unmodified standard programs. Gentoo's apache differs from RH's apache, which probably differs from Mandrake's apache, etc.

- Versions. Some distros are more up-to-date than others when it comes to the versions of the packages they offer. Say KDE releases version 3.1.3, up from 3.1.2. The speed with which all the distros pick it up and convert it into their various package-manager formats and release it varies. Some are very very slow and focus on being stable rather than offering the newest version of everything. Some try to get new versions out there as fast as possible.

- Support. Some distros have very good support mailing lists / MBs, others don't. Some try to make you pay for support.

As far as your questions, I don't know what Tomcat or Argo is, but if it runs on one distro it'll likely run on them all. As far as hardware, that's mostly a kernel thing, not a distro thing. But some distros (RH) have some funky hardware-detection programs that can help you set up your hardware. Some offer third-party kernel modules (i.e. "drivers") as packages too. But it's mostly a kernel thing, and it shouldn't matter too much which distro you pick.

If you REALLY want to learn, I recommend http://linuxfromscratch.org/ . You'll learn so much it'll melt your brain. Unless you're an expert you're probably not going to end up with a useable system though. Gentoo is almost as good a learning experience as LFS, but it organizes things for you and really does give you a workable system. I know I'm insanely biased in favor of Gentoo, but oh well. It all depends on how much time you're willing to spend. For info I'd read the distro's install docs, and browse the support forums of the various distros themselves. http://www.justlinux.com/ , formerly LinuxNewbie.org, is also very helpful.

[Flying Mullet]

Awesome. This is a lot of good information. I'll have to check it out. Thanks. :)

[Yoshix]

I've found a new Linux guru, Wertigon at www.rpgclassics.com knows a lot of linux stuff, hes also a css whiz. He recommends Gentoo on a broadband 2.6gig machine, but otherwise he suggests debian. Juist thought I'd share this with all you linux mongers.

[Dr Unne]

I TOLD YOU SO

[Citizen Bleys]

Right. Wert likes Gentoo. Unne likes Gentoo. Wonko and The Professor like Gentoo. That doesn't automatically mean it's the best distro out there for everybody, because guess what? NO distro is the best distro for everybody.

Gentoo's good if you're good with computers. Like if you can do the job of a network administrator, Gentoo's good for you. If you think an IP address is the location of the toilet, then you need something easier. Preferably not Linux at all.

Wert, Unne, Wonko and the Prof all have one thing in common: They know computers. They know computers well. Every one can program in a real language. (BASIC is not a real language, it's a crutch for easing new programmers into the world of real programming. I'm not saying it's not a useful crutch--That's where I started--but don't expect to ever program anything useful in BASIC). I have never once seen a computer newbie endorse Gentoo. The same can't be said for RedHat and Mandrake, though.

Debian's also a distro that you pretty much can't use at all unless you have a solid IT background.

Honestly, yosh, I don't think you're ready for Linux yet. Linux can be the easiest way for a newbie to use a computer if they have it set up by a qualified guru who is available realtime--in person--for help. Otherwise it can be a world of hurt. Linux was written by programmers for programmers, and if you don't think like a program, it can be bloody difficult. BASIC says you're just breaking into programming now, and if you try Linux now, you may develop a severe hatred for it that will turn you off of it forever, and that would be a shame, because then you'd bee doomed to fight with Windows for the rest of your mortal life.

Try out TurboLinux or some distro that runs off of the CD so that when you get finished with playing, you can just take the CD out and boot back into Windows. For GOD'S sake don't format/repartition your drive until you are good and familiar with basic Linux navigation/command-line interface. Maybe give it a couple of years. Learn PASCAL (Still not exactly a *real* language, it was meant for academics to learn the ins and out of structured programming, but it's still my favorite language out there, and it *can* be used to produce useful, DOS-based programs if not GUI applications like you can make with VB or C++). Break into object-oriented programming with C++ or Java. Once you're comfortable working in object-oriented programming (i.e., you can grasp the concepts of classes and their properties and methods--you don't have to have a deep understanding of multiple inheritance--I still get headaches from MI), then you should be well prepared to make the move to Linux.

And really, don't get rid of Windows entirely until you are sure you're ready. I still use Windows--by choice, not just because I'm going for my MCSE. It still is the easiest way to accomplish a lot of things just because of the massive user support base that exists for it.

Actually, Windows 2000 Server might be a pretty good intermediate step; Server won't do a lot of the things that Pro (or Windows 98, for that matter) will, such as play the newest games, but it can do a few of the things that Linux can do and Pro/98 can't. (It doesn't do them as *well* as Linux does, but it retains the familiar Windows interface and the ability to run Windows programs such as Microsoft Office). If you are comfortable with Server, Linux might be for you.

Linux isn't much of a gamer's platform, either. Don't expect to play the newest games under Linux, because they're being developed for 'Doze.

[Dr Unne]

You're right Bleys, it's not for everyone I guess. I don't think the deciding factor is newbness versus non-newbness though, it's a desire to be non-newb versus a desire to know Linux well. If you know nothing about Linux, but you WANT to know a lot, Gentoo is good for you. If you're a Linux master but you don't want to have to mess with it a lot, Redhat is for you. That's why I feel OK still recommending it for complete Linux newbies too. There are a lot of complete newbies on the Gentoo MB who post how much they like Gentoo once they gave it a try.

[Citizen Bleys]

I think said newbies must have a guru they can rely on. If you have a guru, it's best to start with the same distribution your guru's using, even if that's Slackware, which is the hardest distro to learn. It makes things easier for the guru, and what the guru understands well, they will be able to teach well.

I just don't want anybody rushing out and trying some uber-hard-to-learn Linux distro and turning their back on the OS forever.

And honestly, if you have a sincere desire to learn Linux well, you're not really a newbie. But it's got to be a sincere desire, not just curiosity that evaporates once you find yout that there's hard work to be done in the learning.

I think, if I could get it installed (It doesn't like installing on a HD that's on an ATA card :(), Gentoo would be for me, to be fair. But I also think that Gentoo, from the get-go, is the second-hardest distro after Slackware. And I only say second-hardest because it gets easy once the setup's done--it is a true nightmare to install, and I don't even think it's within the ability of non-technical users.

Yes, the installation instructions are complete. Yes, they're easy to understand--for you. Remember that non-technical users can't read that kind of thing. Even if it is pretty simple...Well, I think that Jesse Liberty's C++ book was pretty simple, but show it to a non-programmer and they just say "What?"

Non-technical users tend to have a psychological block where they think that anything IT is hard, no matter how simple it is, and when you spell it out for them, they still think that there's something missing, that they can't possibly get it, because it was too easy.

The same goes for technical users, to some extent :p. I spent weeks and weeks studying DFS because I thought it was bloody difficult, before I realized that I couldn't learn anymore because there was nothing more to learn. I'd already absorbed all the info the books had on DFS, and I understand DFS well enough to easily answer certification-level DFS questions.

That kind of thing is worse with non-technical users, though. If you think you can't understand something, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Dr Unne]

I guess I have to admit that I have no concept of how easy things are for the average user. Blah.

[Citizen Bleys]

Neither do I, really, but I have dealt with the frustration of trying to explain things to non-technical users ><

[Yoshix]

Actually now that I think about it werts more of a zealot ie: a rabid fan that endorses linux at every cost, I'll learn visual c++, thanx Bleys.;)

[Citizen Bleys]

Linux is that good--if you're ready for it.

[Yoshix]

<img src="http://agora.rpgclassics.com/avatar.php?userid=1215&dateline=1065237252">Yosh:Hey wert' why is linux the best?
<img src="http://agora.rpgclassics.com/avatar.php?userid=23&dateline=1039421623">Wert:Coz' its freeeeeeeee.

There you have it.:p

[Dr Unne]

It's good because it's free as in speech, not because it's free as in beer, to quote a common Linux saying. It's good because I can do whatever I want with it. I downloaded a program yesterday and it didn't work. So I fixed it, and now it works. If this was Windows I'd be screwed. Someone sat down one day and said "Hey, maybe I should group up all this source code in a nice to use way" and the result was Redhat. Someone else said "I bet I could make something better than other stuff out there" and the result was Gentoo. That's why Linux is good. With Windows you use what MS tells you to use, or you use nothing at all. Sucks. Linux is mostly the result of code written by people who just love to code, and it shows. I've paid money for Linux in the past even though I can get it for free, and I'll pay money for it in the future too, because it's that good.