View Full Version : Piracy
Dr Unne
11-30-2003, 09:18 PM
I think we should disallow piracy threads in the Help forum. I don't know why, except that people stealing games ticks me off lately, and that it's terribly illegal. Not to mention the shady characters that get attracted by forums where people know they can get information about stealing / cracking software. No more piracy threads = no more emulation threads maybe, but oh well. Discuss.
Shlup
11-30-2003, 09:35 PM
Arr, matey! What have you agains us pirate types?
Though I suppose the threads have the potential to sour our blossoming relationship with a certain you-know-what, staff. *cough*
I'm conflicted.
Dr Unne
11-30-2003, 09:47 PM
Huh?
Shlup
11-30-2003, 09:59 PM
Just trying to hint at a point the staff should consider before saying "nazi nazi nazi" without spilling any beans, since I'm pretty sure its supposed to be a secret.
eestlinc
11-30-2003, 10:07 PM
i feel we should disallow such threads as well. encouraging illegal activity is not always the best idea. if we don't want pro drug threads then we don't want pro piracy threads either. if you want to discuss the merits, that's cool though.
Garland
11-30-2003, 10:31 PM
I don't have any need for hacking/emulation/piracy threads, so it's fine with me if you ban them. They are illegal after all. Picking some illegal activities that it's ok to promote and some that it's not isn't consistant. Besides, "family/child friendliness" is often used as the weapon against the other controversial topics that aren't allowed. It won't be hard to argue that we don't want our children learning how to rob the gaming industry from EoFF.
MecaKane
11-30-2003, 11:00 PM
People who don't know how freaking easy it is to get pirate stuff, don't deserve it.
Or something. :cool:
Yamaneko
11-30-2003, 11:10 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Unne and the others. Would this include threads aiding in the dl and production of mp3 to audio CDs?
crono_logical
11-30-2003, 11:29 PM
If it's a blatant piracy/warez thread like OMG GIMME WINXP CRACK, or GIMME KEYGEN, then no :p
Otherwise, I don't see emulator threads as a problem. In fact, saying "Go to the store, buy" is pretty ignorant since it's not possible to do for some games in some countries, or for older games which aren't in stores any longer. I'm sure many of us around here wouldn't have played FF6 or older if it wasn't for emulators. And should I ban everyone that's posted a thread about the NES FF3 and close all corresponding threads? I very much doubt anyone here (except perhaps Kishi) would have got the original game in japanese on a japanese console and played through that :p
Emulator threads and piracy threads are rather seperate things, the way I see it, and just because one can aid the other, doesn't make them the same.
Then there's also the fact that different people have different tolerances to whether certain things are piracy or not e.g. subtitled anime :D
Dr Unne
12-01-2003, 12:35 AM
"It's not for sale here" is a lame excuse for allowing piracy threads. Yeah, there's an obvious difference between downloading a 15-year-old FF1 NES ROM and downloading Warcraft III 2 days after it was released and asking for cracks, I guess. Like I have the FF1 NES ROM on my site, but if people email me to ask for a ROM of the WSC version or of FFOrigins, I always tell them to go away / buy it. God knows I've pirated my share of stuff in the past, but not games. Stealing games just ticks me off.
Advent Child
12-01-2003, 12:54 AM
I don't think "It ticks me off" is a good reason to disallow ROM threads. I also don't think "it's illegal" is a good reason because some people can't get them any other way. But I do agree that other piracy threads (keygen, cracks, etc.) shouldn't be allowed.
Shoyku
12-01-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Advent Child
I also don't think "it's illegal" is a good reason because some people can't get them any other way.However, it's a good enough one. It's still illegal, afterall. In addition, if people are talking about pirating games at all, we'll possibly get the wrong audience of members joining.
Illegal is illegal, whether you like it or not.
I might not be able to buy a Porche in my home town, that doesn't give me the right to steal one if someone else happens to have one.
Kawaii Ryűkishi
12-01-2003, 02:21 AM
I'm going to keep using my own discretion, thanks.
Del Murder
12-01-2003, 04:53 AM
What exactly is 'terribly illegal'? That sounds more like it should be reserved for rape and murder, not copying games. But if there is a much worse degree of illegal designated to those crimes then my apologies.
Shlup
12-01-2003, 06:58 AM
Is downloading something that isn't available in your country not really illegal? Like downloading anime fansubs and such.
I guess I'll be more strict on blatant piracy threads, but I don't think getting rid of all file-sharing/ROM threads is going to be worth whatever we're trying to do by not allowing them.
Del Murder
12-01-2003, 07:02 AM
Saving the world?
Peegee
12-01-2003, 10:04 AM
Do we actually give out information on how to download any sort of video games/roms/emulators? I don't really think so, but I suppose the odd thread happens (otherwise Dr Unne wouldn't be so compelled to talk about something).
Anyway, count me in as agreement. Even though I haven't seen threads discussing how to download certain roms (can we give advice on how to troubleshoot emulators?), I don't think we should give out such information.
HOOTERS
12-01-2003, 11:59 AM
D'arr, now ye be goin' overboard. Not literally.
BTW You shouldn't try and stop/not promote illegal downloading on the net when you do it yourself.
edczxcvbnm
12-01-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by ShlupQuack
Is downloading something that isn't available in your country not really illegal? Like downloading anime fansubs and such.
I don't believe it is illegal as there would be no copyrights in our country...or else it would be here.
Dr Unne
12-01-2003, 07:03 PM
It is illegal to steal things even if they aren't for sale in this country, yes. How could it not be illegal? Are you allowed to steal cars from Canada just because that particular car isn't sold in America? "It's not for sale here, therefore it's free" is a poor justification.
Illegal or not, I don't really care, that's not my main concern. This is supposed to be a site about appreciating games. If we turn around and allow people to steal games, what does that say? We like video games so much, we're going to allow and encourage people to steal it instead of paying for it? Maybe if we like games from some company enough, we'll just go run the company straight out of business. There's no reason not to buy a game, if you like it. I don't really care if people talk about really old ROMS or something, commercial games are all I have a problem with. My main concern is with threads like "Find me a crack for this game", yeah. We don't have them often, but we just had one recently, and I can remember others in the past. Not like it's a huge problem around here or anything, I'd just like it if those threads were killed instead of being allowed to stay open at all.
Raistlin
12-01-2003, 07:09 PM
So, Unne, to use your car analogy, you don't care if people steal '56 chevys, all you care about are the new BMWs.
Dr Unne
12-01-2003, 07:18 PM
Cars increase in value over time. NES ROMs are worth nothing today to anyone. People sell 10 of them for a dollar at flea markets.
There's also a point where, legally, everything does (or should) enter the public domain. Books by Homer and Socrates, etc. are free for everyone to reproduce, because the original creators are no longer able to make money from them. The question of WHEN things should enter the public domain is up for debate, and I'm not sure when they do legally, but like I said, the law isn't my main concern. In my opinion, NES ROMs are or should be public domain by now. FFXI on the other hand obviously shouldn't.
Del Murder
12-01-2003, 08:03 PM
I'll agree with that. The only thing I steal of that sort is Microsoft Office, but that thing is really overly expensive.
Citizen Bleys
12-01-2003, 08:18 PM
This, I think, is a case in which it should be left to the discretion of the moderators and handled on a case-by-case basis. As you yourself have said, Unne, when things enter the public domain is up for debate; Trying to set something in a rule means that you have to be able to come up with a formulaic way of determining exactly how old something has to be before we disallow discussion of how to share it, and trying to come up with a rule like that is a lot like, to phrase it the way one of my instructors did, trying to nail Jell-o to the wall.
Now, of course, I know *exactly* what thread prompted this, and I agree that that particular case is pretty blatant, and it was absent-minded of the staff to leave it open. (Not an attack, I was absent-minded far far too much myself when I was on staff)...but it still should be left up to the discretion of the Knights...and if the Knights don't seem to be noticing, then there's always the warn button. Which, no matter what anybody says, does not get ignored. Isn't that right, cl_out and BoB?
crono_logical
12-01-2003, 10:11 PM
Yes, I read all warn posts, (and BoB does too I think since often he's got to the post before me :p ) but if I think it's not a big deal, I do nothing about it, so in that case it'll only end up getting dealt with if there's someone more strict than me on that issue that also sees it :p
I also know which thread prompted this thread, and by my discretion I deliberately left open it because Unne had already replied in it by the time I saw it - if he hadn't, I probably would have closed it. But since he replied with what would be the "legit" solution, I felt there was no need to close it anymore due to the direction he pushed the stance of the thread :p
Citizen Bleys
12-01-2003, 11:52 PM
Still, that sends the message that Unne cares and staff doesn't.
eestlinc
12-02-2003, 01:18 AM
i don't think there should be a specific policy, but I do think the staff should stay away from condoning illegal activities like software theft.
Raistlin
12-02-2003, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Dr Unne
Cars increase in value over time. NES ROMs are worth nothing today to anyone. People sell 10 of them for a dollar at flea markets.
But you said stealing was stealing, no matter the excuse. You said availability wasn't an excuse, so why should cost? The act of going out and buying it is the main thing, not the price, isn't it?
Meh, I don't really care.
I do, however, disagree with a policy on ROMs and such. Let them(meaning staff) use their own discretion.
Dr Unne
12-02-2003, 02:54 AM
When's the last time the staff had an official policy on anything? If someone made an official policy about this I'd crap my pants. I just wanna see some threads a'closin.
edczxcvbnm
12-02-2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Dr Unne
In my opinion, NES ROMs are or should be public domain by now.
Hell no. Don't you see that Nintendo released Zelda and Zelda 2 in that double pack? What about all those compliation packs that just came out from Midway, Activision and Atari. They are still making money off their 20 year old games.
Dr Unne
12-02-2003, 03:27 AM
When I said "should be", my primary concern isn't necessarily the well-being of Squaresoft. Mickey Mouse becomes public domain in a few years, if I remember correctly. Disney will lose millions of dollars. Eventually, things pass from the realm of money-making to the realm of being part of our culture. In any case, no one is making money off of selling Nintendo carts. If Nintendo carts were worth anything, they would still be sold as Nintendo carts. One could argue that NES ROMs take the place of other newer games people could or would be playing if they had no NES carts to take up their time and energy. That might be a valid point, I don't know. In any case from a legal standpoint you are right, NES ROMs are not yet public domain so far as I'm aware.
However, if I concede your point, my original point stands. If you believe that NES ROMs should be protected, you must agree that new games should be protected even moreso.
edczxcvbnm
12-02-2003, 03:40 AM
I do think new games should be protected even more so. I do believe that Mickey Mouse isn't public domain for about another 20 years or so. They got the gov. to extend the length of the copyright.
ROMs I believe are a toss up between right and wrong. I can still go out to the book store and buy a book that is 20 years old and find it and if I can't I can go the the library. I can go out and buy old as hell music and old movies. I can't go out and buy old NES carts.
Its a difficult situation for old games. But new games and software is pretty much unacceptable.
Peegee
12-03-2003, 01:57 PM
Since when was this 'public domain' concept still in practice? I was almost positive that they changed something about copyrighting laws so that material stays copyrighted forever (or can be renewed?).
edczxcvbnm
12-03-2003, 03:01 PM
I never read anything about it being good forever. I thought the just extended the copyrights another 20 years.
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