It's all Odine's fault *big spoilers*

[Mo-Nercy]

Correct me if I am incorrect, but Odine researched Ellone's ability to send one's consciousness to the past and put it all in a machine called 'Junction Machine Ellone' which Ultimecia uses to send her own consciousness back to the present and manipulate sorceress' Edea, Rinoa and Adel.

So in theory, taking into account the little I know about time travel and it's properties. Couldn't Odine destroy the Junction Machine Ellone, preventing it from getting into the hands of Ultimecia in the future, preventing her from sending her consciousness back in time, therefore making Time Compression impossible because she can't reach Ellone unless she's in the Squall's present.

Right?

While I'm on this subject, I'll bring up this scenario too. If Odine destroys Junction Machine Ellone after Edea, Rinoa and Adel have all been possessed, it would change the future and Ultimecia wouldn't be able to compress time...but that also means that Ultimecia would have never been able to send her consciousness back in time to Edea, Rinoa and Adel...so does that mean destroying Junction Machine Ellone would change the past as well as the future?

:eek: My head hurts.

[PhoenixAsh]

As you said it would create a paradox, because with the past changed Odine couldn't know to destroy the machine and therefore wouldn't. In theory he could start a parallel timeline containing people from an alternate (the original) future and still get rid of the machine. But that wouldn't solve the problem and is only possible if time travel works like that.
Time travel in VIII doesn't really work with any kind of logic so it's best to just roll with it.

[Iceglow]

your head hurts mine too after 5 mins of thinking that over it started to. but then again its like a lot of things in FF8 what would have happened if Laguna just jumped over the cliff in centra intsead of being a wuss and trying to climb it? Squall might never have been born nor Rinoa for that matter therefore nothing would have happened therefore in my opinion it's Laguna's fault for climbing down that cliff instead of jumping

[selphie666]

In the game, Odine said that he created Junction Machine Ellone in the future and after he did it fell into Ulti's hands, so a much simpler way to stop all of the stuff that was going on would be to kill Odine so that he never builds the stupid thing.

[Future Esthar]

Eureka.
I like that because it destroys the consistency of the superficial story of FFVIII.
The classical "Ultimecia lives in the future and goes to the past to make Time Compression" is a lie and I think Square hinted at that at only one point in FFVIII:
The one we are discussing now.And I find it interesting that Odine was just the one Square used to tell that.That classical story was a NEARLY perfect lie.But the JME discourse just appears to destroy that perfection.

[SeeDRankLou]

While I'm on this subject, I'll bring up this scenario too. If Odine destroys Junction Machine Ellone after Edea, Rinoa and Adel have all been possessed, it would change the future and Ultimecia wouldn't be able to compress time...but that also means that Ultimecia would have never been able to send her consciousness back in time to Edea, Rinoa and Adel...so does that mean destroying Junction Machine Ellone would change the past as well as the future?

:eek: My head hurts.
Yeah. So, if Odine destroys the Junction Machine Ellone, Ultimecia would never have been able to perform Time Compression. But then the past would be change because the events with Ultimecia dieing and Edea taking her power also would never have happened. Thusly, Edea would have never gotten the idea for SeeD and none of the events with Squall and co. would have happened. However, the events with Laguana and Ellone would have happened, Odine would not have known to destroy his machine and the Ultimecia would have gotten her hands on the machine and performed Time Compression, which means Edea would have her powers and SeeD would exists, and all the events in the game would happen.

Did you get any of that? :confused: Neither did I. :D

[Sir Bahamut]

Ellone says the past can't change.

Hence, whatever Odine would have done wouldn't have changed a thing. Kill Odine? The machine would still have been built somehow, because since the line of time in FF8 never changes, Ultimecia will ALWAYS get hold of the machine.

[TasteyPies]

Ellone says the past can't change.

Hence, whatever Odine would have done wouldn't have changed a thing. Kill Odine? The machine would still have been built somehow, because since the line of time in FF8 never changes, Ultimecia will ALWAYS get hold of the machine.

She says it won't change through "time travel." The doesn't exclude changing the outcome of what may be after knowing what would be.

[Sir Bahamut]

She says "you can't change the past".

That means that no matter how much timetravelling you do, you won't change anything because your timetravelling was a natural part of time.
We can extend this to see that the future can't change either.
You see, someone from the future, might travel to a section of his own past, which would at the same time be part of someone elses, say Squalls future. Like this:

Squall---------------Where Mr. X returns to.--------Mr X.
Time---->

This is exactly what Ultimecia does. She arrives in our time from the future, and since she can't change the past either, Squall and co can't change their future.

Hence, time doesn't ever change.

[Optium]

What is even cooler is that he wouldn't have to destroy the machine for
things to come back to normal. All he would have to do is decide to
destroy the machine (then of course follow up by destroying it, but to
actually affect the future all he would have to do is decide to destroy it),
and in fact someone stepping on a bug somewhere in Galbadia could affect
his decision due to the butterfly effect and thus someone taking a shortcut
home to Galbadia and stepping on that bug could have saved the world.

So really, it's all that Galbadian's fault for going the long way. ;]

.opt

[Sir Bahamut]

You know, if you found a way past my arguments for time never changing, it would be nice to hear how, instead of just pretending like I never made a post to begin with.

[Optium]

You know, if you found a way past my arguments for time never changing, it would be nice to hear how, instead of just pretending like I never made a post to begin with.
I didn't read your post anyway. :\

My post wasn't really an argument, more just thinking out loud. The idea
has been going around in my head for a while now and it has nothing to do
with this game. The basic principle is that people always say something
like "if so and so changed this then the future would change" but in
reality all so and so would have to do is decide to change something for
the future to change (this is of course only if you believe in completely
free will).

Now on the subject of time never changing, a more accepted time
travel theory is the super-string theory. Basically they say that time is
like a giant string. At the beginning of time there was one string. Then
the big bang happened and that created a little strand off the main
string where the big bang has not yet happened. Now some planets fly
this way, some that, and every single event creates a new strand. So
within a millisecond there will be googols of googols of strands. Now if
you were to travel in time and say save JFK, you would not be able to
travel back to your future and find a different world, rather you would
create another strand by saving JFK and you would only be able to
move foreward in that strand.

.opt

[Sir Bahamut]

Yeah, superstrings and P-branes and all that is all fine and dandy in the real world, but FF8 isn't the real world.
Square made up their own definition of time.

[Optium]

Let's say Square did make a time system where time runs like a cassette
tape and nothing will change what happens, then there would be no such
thing as free will. How is it then that if you die in game the game is over?
Surely there is no other group of kids who will take up the fight against a
sorceress and then one of them turn into a sorceress and be possessed. If
this does happen then time is no longer just an unchangable force but an
animate one which has predetirmined what will happen. Now let's imagine
that somehow this is true, why would time not always keep Squall and co
alive in order to fulfill its desires? Why is it that you can die and the world
will end, or you can live and save it? This is, in a sense, a free choice and
thus time cannot be static.

.opt

[Queen Anthai]

Quit trying to ruin a perfectly flawed storyline with logic! :D

[Sir Bahamut]

Why is it that you can die and the world
will end, or you can live and save it? This is, in a sense, a free choice and
thus time cannot be static.

You basically answered your own question you now, you just didn't realize it.

Squall and Co must be alive for the game to be complete. It's part of the line of time that they live and defeat Ultimecia.

If they die, you get a Game Over screen. With them dead, the game can't be completed, time can't be fulfilled. Hence when they all die, the game ends. It's not supposed to happen though, which is why you merely load up to a previous point and carry on as if nothing had happened.

For the game to be completed, they must stay alive. This fully supports the unchanging timeline.

[Optium]

So then if time can't be fulfilled, then you truly have changed time by not
fulfilling it. The cassette tape is broken now. You answered your own
question as well. ;]

.opt

[Sir Bahamut]

No, you missed my point.

In the story Square is showing us, the party remains alive through it all.
They wrote a plot which had all of them stay alive and beat the villain.

When WE play the game, all we are doing is playing through the story they wrote.

So, when we do something which breaks the story, like dying, it's game over. We have to start from an earlier point so we can progress as if the death never occured.
But if we don't screw up, we see the whole story. There's only one story we can see after all, so the full story can be treated as a complete book.

To make an analogy, dying would be like reading a book, and then stopping to read for a short while, then returning to an earlier point in the back and continuing to read.
The book remains the same though, regardless of our stopping and going back.

[Optium]

But now you're looking at it from a completely different point of view. I
understand exactly what you're saying but it's no longer really about the
original post.

.opt

[Sir Bahamut]

No, I'm looking at it from the exact same point of view, I just explained it poorly in the first post.

[Optium]

No dude, there are two different viewpoints of the game, the one from the
characters' point of view, and the one from the players'. The original topic
was based on the characters' POV but yours is based on the players'.

.opt

[Rand Al'Tor]

The 'Game over' screen just doesn't happen. When you make Laguna die somewhere, that didn't happen. Couldn't have happened, cause Squall is there!

Which is why 'fate' gets some attention. The heroes are 'the children fo fate' after all. And Ellone's attempts to make Laguna stay with Squall didn't change the past, but just made sure that it happened as it had.

As such, the JME indeed couldn't be destroyed. Well, Of cousre, odds are people are gonna try to stop Dr. Odine anyway. I can't see SeeD of the future happilly sitting along waiting for the day where they all have to die so Squall can find their corpses and say 'We're fighting across generations'

In a way, it must have been pretty bad for those SeeD. They KNOW that many years in the past, Squall Lionheart encountered all those dead SeeD, and that Ultimecia defeated them, so they've got nothing to look forward to except defeat... IF they believe this theory. (if I was IN the FFVIII-world, I know I wouldn't.)

[Sir Bahamut]

You know, one theory for Ultimecias motives is that those SeeD didn't want to wait for Ultimecia to kill so many of them and cause so much chaos, so they started pursuing Ultimecia when she was born.

This then drove Ultimecia to revenge. I mean, she gets pursused her entire life for doing nothing. So she gets really pissed, and starts fighting back, eventually compressing time.

Squall and co essentially created their own villain.


No dude, there are two different viewpoints of the game, the one from the
characters' point of view, and the one from the players'. The original topic
was based on the characters' POV but yours is based on the players'.


Ah, sorry, I thought you were referring to my first post in this topic-

[Rand Al'Tor]

Could be... in her speech as Edea, Ultimecia does sound like she has been on the receiving end of some serious persecution. Heck, whether the R=U theory is correct or not, I think plenty of SeeD would keep their eyes on Rinoa after hearing the story anyway.

[BraSkAs_FiNAl_AeoN]

whoa, deep.

[bEoWuLfX]

okay let's say odine destroyed the machine. That means that Squall would never fight ultmecia nor would he travel back intime to see edea and inspire her to start seed. Basically there would be no story. And squall would probably still be at the orphanage. So by destroying the machine everything is changed. As for playing the game and dieing... who cares. FF8 is retarded anyways.

[Zante]

I think that throught defeating Ultimeca, Squall and co created a new future with no Ultimecia at all, atlhougt the past stayed unchanged. If they wouldn't change the future, the whole game would be pointless. If the future coudn't be changed, their fight would bring nothing to them, as Ultimecia would still exist until the point when they defeated her, so it would only bring something to the people living in Ultimecas time. With other words: The future seeds would still have to fighting Ultimecia, becasue that happened before Ultimecia was killed. They also couldn't change the past, because that already happened, and throught changing it, they would stop it from changing. Basicaly, that would mean that if Odine wouldn't build the machine, Ultimecia still could send her consciousness to the pressent, as she already has the machine that was build somewhere.

But this is only my opinion of the thing, and I'm not saying that it has to be right.

[BraSkAs_FiNAl_AeoN]

Ok so lets say odine did descide to destroy it, what if that choice( to destroy the machine)was actually the choice that leads to the whole soceress/seed conflict. That is there is fate and no free will.