The mystery of Sephiroth (Big Spoilers)

[Mordred]

Sephiroth, my favorite game character, the best villain ever (in my mind) and part of one crazy story line.

Well I was talking to one of my friends and he said "I was thinking maybe the Advent Children are the 100% Sephiroth clones."

Thats what spurred this thread for me. Being a huge fan of the game(VII, duh), and haveing beat it 15 times, I still have my questions and maybe you can help sort it out.

Heres what I am asking (In huge sotry like paragraph form):

The Sephiroth you fight with in the Nibleheim story time part, that fights the dragon, (you show up as Cloud but we all know it was Zack, cuz Cloud was motion sick) was the real Sephiroth right?

OK well assuming that is correct^^^^ Sephiroth questions who he is when you get into the mako reactor where Jenova is stored. Cloud barges in to stop him but Sephiroth just walks by, Cloud chases him, Sephiroth stabs him, Cloud miraculously makes a comeback and throws Sephiroth off the bridge "killing" him. Correct so far?
(This is where I get a little lost)
Ok so the Sephiroth you chase through the entire game is just a clone of the real Sephiroth, right?

The Sephiroth that you hand the bleck materia to that is sealed up in a mako bubble is the real Sephiroth, since he fell in mako, he isnt essentially dead.

Is that right?

Well then my big question is....which Sephiroth do you fight at the end of the game, Sephiroth or Clone Sephiroth.

I consulted my Uncle on this and he said that you fight the clone at the end, explaining why it was fairly easy, and that the real Sephiroth would have been much stronger.

If that is correct then what ever happened to the sephiroth that is sealed in the mako bubble?

Well thank you for your time.

P.S. If you have answers to my questions, leave a reply..Mucho aprreciated

[GaV]

I always thought the sephi you chased was infact jenova, because you fight a form of jenova every time you meet the figure. You must also remember the sephi clones were not his exact form, but just contained jenova cells and were made in the same way.

[Mordred]

Yes but hojo is always rambling about "The perfect clone" and so are the other messed up clones, plus those are just pieces of jenova he carried around, he was a little messed in the head, be it real him or not

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

The "Sephiroth" whom Cloud chases to the Whirlwind Maze is neither the real Sephiroth nor a clone. It's actually Jenova, who escaped from Shin-Ra Tower, taking on Sephiroth's appearance. The Jenova-BIRTH and Jenova-LIFE battles occur when it leaves pieces of its body behind, and the party finally fights it in earnest in the Whirlwind Maze. Notice that, after the Jenova-DEATH battle, the fake Sephiroth is no more.

The real Sephiroth is fought at the end of the game. The reason he is so weak during his final duel with Cloud is that, as the story reveals, Cloud had always been the stronger of the two (which is why he had been able to "kill" Sephiroth back at Mt. Nibel). The only thing that made Sephiroth seem stronger was Cloud's own insecurities.

[Mordred]

THAT WAS JENOVA, HOW THE H*LL DID I MISS THAT


I guess i just disagree with the story because I think Sephiroth should have easily been able to eliminate cloud, because he was the ultimate soldier

Well even if your clearing this up for me, what are your predictions for Advent Children?

[Sefie1999AD]

Originally posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
The reason he is so weak during his final duel with Cloud is that, as the story reveals, Cloud had always been the stronger of the two (which is why he had been able to "kill" Sephiroth back at Mt. Nibel). The only thing that made Sephiroth seem stronger was Cloud's own insecurities.

Or the reason could be that the battle takes place inside Cloud's mind, and there Cloud proves that inside his own mind, his will is way stronger than Sephiroth's, and that he's the one who's in control of his own mind.

[Flying Mullet]

Originally posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
The "Sephiroth" whom Cloud chases to the Whirlwind Maze is neither the real Sephiroth nor a clone. It's actually Jenova, who escaped from Shin-Ra Tower, taking on Sephiroth's appearance. The Jenova-BIRTH and Jenova-LIFE battles occur when it leaves pieces of its body behind, and the party finally fights it in earnest in the Whirlwind Maze. Notice that, after the Jenova-DEATH battle, the fake Sephiroth is no more.

The real Sephiroth is fought at the end of the game. The reason he is so weak during his final duel with Cloud is that, as the story reveals, Cloud had always been the stronger of the two (which is why he had been able to "kill" Sephiroth back at Mt. Nibel). The only thing that made Sephiroth seem stronger was Cloud's own insecurities.
So if up through the Whirlwind Maze the party is actually chasing Jenvoa, where does Sephiroth come into play, i.e. where was he hanging out until after the Whirlwind Maze?

[Mordred]

Yeah I thought the real sephiroth was in that mako bubble the whole time, I wasnt talking about the lifestream battle im talking baout the actual whole damn battle, he should have been blisteringly hard


P.S. Why isnt my sig working? It works everywhere else i try

[Sefie1999AD]

Originally posted by Flying Mullet
So if up through the Whirlwind Maze the party is actually chasing Jenvoa, where does Sephiroth come into play, i.e. where was he hanging out until after the Whirlwind Maze?

After Sephiroth fell into the pit in Nibelheim five years prior to the game, I think he drifted in the Lifestream until he reached the Northern Crater where the Reunion started to take place.

[GaV]

sephiroth did not die and did infact end up in the 'promised land'

[Big D]

Originally posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi
The "Sephiroth" whom Cloud chases to the Whirlwind Maze is neither the real Sephiroth nor a clone. It's actually Jenova, who escaped from Shin-Ra Tower, taking on Sephiroth's appearance. The Jenova-BIRTH and Jenova-LIFE battles occur when it leaves pieces of its body behind, and the party finally fights it in earnest in the Whirlwind Maze. Notice that, after the Jenova-DEATH battle, the fake Sephiroth is no more.I've still not seen an adequate explanation for why Jenova would put on such an act. There's no question that Jenova's body is in fact what you're chasing, but to me it's clear that Sephiroth's mind is involved somehow. It'd make no sense for Jenova to boast about Sephiroth becoming a 'traveller of the lifestream' and being able to diffuse his will through it, gaining knowledge. It seems clear to me that those were Sephiroth's words, and Jenova's headless carcass merely provided a kind of 'conduit' for them.


The real Sephiroth is fought at the end of the game. The reason he is so weak during his final duel with Cloud is that, as the story reveals, Cloud had always been the stronger of the two (which is why he had been able to "kill" Sephiroth back at Mt. Nibel). The only thing that made Sephiroth seem stronger was Cloud's own insecurities. Not really. Sephiroth was a military general, a war hero and the 'greatest soldier in the world'. He was far stronger than Cloud, or anyone else for that matter. Cloud was only able to throw him into the Nibel Reactor because Sephiroth was already wounded, and because Cloud was driven by rage, love, and other emotions Sephiroth just couldn't comprehend. He was empowered, however briefly, by the sense of frustration and injustice at everything he'd lost.

At the very end of the game, Sephiroth has alredy been defeated twice; Jenova he's reduced to his original human form. You don't die and disintegrate twice without losing a bit of strength. Once again, Cloud also had the advantage of years of pain to fuel the fires of his vengeance.

[The Man]

I was under the impression that Cloud had been rejected from SOLDIER for most of my first trip through FFVII, but it appears that I incorrectly drew that conclusion; it's more likely that he was too afraid even to apply, which appears to be a large part of the reason he distorts his past story in his own mind.

I was about to say that being imprisoned in materia for five years wouldn't do wonders for Sephiroth's strength, but who knows what kind of magical properties it has.

[zacks_clone]

I thought he was rejected from SOLDIER,and simply got the position of a lonely guard.Zack became friends with him during training or whatever...

I always thought that the sephiroth cloud fought at the VERY end was simply in his mind.The strong controll over him showed itself to be Sephiroth.All his problumes were linked to Sephiroth.The more he learned about himself,and the less hold Sephiroth had,the more this image in his mind weakened.In the end, Cloud was stronger then this Image, and he struck it down.

[The Man]

Originally posted by zacks_clone
I thought he was rejected from SOLDIER,and simply got the position of a lonely guard.I don't think the game ever decisively said whether Cloud was rejected or never had the courage to apply, but judging from what we know about his personality at the time, I'd say the latter was more likely. He was certainly strong enough to throw Sephiroth down into the Lifestream in a one-on-one battle, and that's not exactly something you'd expect of a reject from SOLDIER.

[Big D]

Cloud says he "never made it as a member of SOLDIER", which is, as you say, ambiguous. However, he certainly wasn't stronger or a better fighter than Sephiroth. He overpowered a wounded and off-guard and somewhat mad Sephiroth, who was limping with a wound, and who's just beheaded the inhuman monster he considered his mother. He was carrying her head in one hand, and impaled Cloud's shoulder one-handed and without even looking where he was aiming. Very poor use of his talents, probably a bit of over-confidence there too. He was in a state of denial when Cloud actually levered him up and over the side of the pipe.

"Heh.... pipe!"

[SomethingBig]

I've come to believe that that final battle with Sephiroth was Cloud's final step into finally getting Sephiroth out of his head. I guess that explains the darkness and why Cloud's alone during that "battle".

[Big D]

Originally posted by SomethingBig
I've come to believe that that final battle with Sephiroth was Cloud's final step into finally getting Sephiroth out of his head. I guess that explains the darkness and why Cloud's alone during that "battle". That's a popular interpretation of that scene... that Cloud's ousting the last remnants of Jenova's and Sephiroth's lingering evil influence from himself. That also explains why in one moment, he's surrounded by Lifestream and reaching toward a hand - Aeris'? - and in the next moment, he's up in the crumbling cave, with Tifa reaching out to him, kind of like he's been jolted back to reality.

[-N-]

I'm inclined to agree with the final battle being in terms of consciousness - because when Cloud and Tifa are left on the screen and Cloud covers his head and starts thrashing around, you see him in double and one of the Clouds flies away to fight Sephiroth. So all the time the real Cloud was there while he was imagining destroying Sephiroth. The thing is, I don't think he imagined destroying Sephiroth so much as destroying Sephiroth's consciousness. Cloud felt his prescence in the surrounding Lifestream, and I think that final battle was to finally completely destroy his spirit such that Sephiroth could no longer exist as a whole person, and would finally be reduced to Spirit Energy. Hope that makes sense.

In the flashback when Cloud throws Sephiroth over the bridge, I always thought Sephiroth pierced his armor but missed his flesh (sorta like stabbing at Cloud's armpit), and then Cloud grabbed the sword and chucked him over the bridge. But impaling the shoulder suffices as well.

Interesting to wonder whether Cloud was rejected or never applied. Just another example of the open-ended genius of this story...

Anyways, to sum up...
Cloud destroys Sephiroth's spirit (equivalent to Sepiroth himself after Jenova and Safer are destroyed) in the final battle. On a side note, Omnislashing him to pieces is freaking cool.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Hi Neel.

[Maxico]

I remeber posting something here that was something else by some guy who got it from an author and was an in depth look into the game. but the forums got cleared out and my computer seems to get a new harddrive every few months these days so I cant find it. But towards the end it says that he thinks that sephiroth is a puppet, he doesn't want to destroy the world but is being controled by jenova (end of disk 1 "sephiroth: because you are..... Jenova: ... puppet) why would that be the only line by jenova in the game? why is it finishing his sentances. So jenova is killed when you fight the 1 winged angle (all of these mutations are forms of jenova, notice a similarity tenticals, giant size, ability to destroy the world) When you finaly kill jenova all that is left is the sephiroth, without jenova he is just as weak as the next guy. Driven insane by having jenova inside him he attacks cloud sure of his own success. But gets his ass kicked (notice the suprise on his face when you kill him). Also I think holy begins to work after you defeat the safer sephiroth, even though sephiroth is still alive. He is not the threat, he's just another guy.

[zacks_clone]

:: bangs head :: i swear, no one listens to me. In another topic, i posted the following


You know,your gana have to take a guess.Me,being a big Sephiroth fan despite Aeris being killed by (supposibly) him,have an idea.

Yes,i think the person who killed Aeris was a clone.A very good,perhaps the only succesful, Sephiroth Clone.You know how Cloud was living Zacks memories?Well,think of this Clone(looking exactly like Sephiroth) living Sephiroths memories.

I think this was Jenovas plan.Hojo was making Sephiroth Clones,people that could hold his strength and power,but he never gave them Sephiroths thoughts.Jenova must have.Jenova,being a *thing* we know little about,could have known everything there was to know about Sephiroth,seeing how her Cells were in him.Perhaps she collected his thoughts and memories.She then gave them to this clone.

The clone killed Aeris.The clone was being controlled by Jenova.The line "You are a Puppet" was directed twords Cloud, to make him mentaly unstable,but...I think it was actually ment to fit Sephiroths clone.The clone was Jenovas toy,and a toy ment to be played with by the Shinra.That is the reson Hojo made the clones.

So,basicly,Hojo made a clone.Jenova gave the clone Sephiroths memories and feelings and life(basicly),and the Clone in return did her bidding, knowing nothing of her playing with him like a puppet.

now,i hope somone give you their thoughts...-.-;;; i think it'd be nice to hear their ideas to.

[-N-]

Hi Neel.


:love:

[astrognats]

from game faq auther Sophie Cheshire

5 years ago

- Reports of monsters disrupting life for the workers at the Mt. Nibel Mako
reactor results in Sephiroth, Zack and Cloud being sent to Nibelheim to
investigate. On reaching Nibelheim Cloud keeps his identity hidden from Tifa
and the other townspeople. He cannot bear to be seen as just an "ordinary"
solider.

Tifa takes the party to the Mako reactor. Tifa and Cloud stay outside. Inside,
Sephiroth discovers Jenova's body and sees all the mutated "failed" experiments
of Hojo's. He begins to realise his origins may be similar and becomes upset.
Zack is disbelieving at first, but when one of the mutated humans falls out of
a pod he also begins to be concerned. The party return to Nibelheim Mansion.

Sephiroth finds all the notes of Jenova Project in the basement of the Mansion.
He is aware of Professor Gasts initialisation of the project but has not been
told how Gast died or Hojo's full involvement in his creation. Later in the
night Zack goes to speak to Sephiroth and finds Sephiroth a changed man.
Sephiroth has discovered Gasts notes he made at Icicle Lodge about the
Ancients. He now believes he is descended from the Ancients and regards normal
humans as traitors who abandoned the Cetra to a terrible disaster. However he
does not seem to accept Jenova is the cause of that disaster. He rants and
raves at Zack before leaving quickly to see Jenova whom he refers to as
"Mother".

Zack follows him outside and sees the whole village in flames. Many people are
dead or dying, a Shinra Soldier (Cloud) tends to his dying mother. Sephiroth
heads for the reactor with several townsfolk in hot pursuit. Tifa and Zack
chase after him, Cloud following behind.

At the reactor Tifa discovers her father's body. Sephiroth has killed him. As
Sephiroth moves towards the Pod with Jenova in it, Zack tries to attack him but
is batted away. Tifa picks up Sephiroth's discarded sword and attacks him, but
he takes the sword back and cuts her down. Cloud arrives to witness this and
he tenderly moves Tifa into a more comfortable position before confronting
Sephiroth.

Sephiroth opens the pod and tries to free Jenova. As Cloud approaches
Sephiroth tells Jenova he has come to reclaim the Planet for her. Cloud stabs
Sephiroth then returns to tend to Tifa. Injured, Sephiroth can only take
Jenova's head with him, he leaves the pod room, walking past Cloud. Cloud
follows him onto the bridge above the Life stream running far below at the
bottom of the reactor. Sephiroth stabs Cloud though the chest, but Cloud keeps
a hold of the sword and uses it to flip Sephiroth and Jenova's head into the
bottom of the Mako reactor. Cloud then passes out.

- In the immediate aftermath, Zangan (Tifa's tutor) arrives at the reactor and
takes the wounded Tifa to Midgar. Here she sets up a bar called "Seventh
Heaven" in the sector 7 slums when she has recovered.

- Cloud, Zack and the surviving residents of Nibelheim are gathered up and used
by Hojo to create clones of Sephiroth now they believe the original is dead.

- Far from dead, Sephiroth washes through the Life stream until he ends up at
the Great North Cave. Having assimilated the knowledge of the Ancients while
in there he begins to formulate a plan to turn himself into a God. This
involves summoning a Meteor to cause a big enough wound on the planets surface
to make the Life stream rush to one place, where he can absorb it all. Over
the next 5 years he experiments with controlling the Sephiroth clones remotely
and projecting himself psychically. His physical body however remains in the
Great North Cave for the duration of the game.

- Shinra cover up the incident at Nibelheim and repopulate the town with
Shinra staff. Experiments carry on at the Mansion, but Jenova is moved to
Shinra Headquarters (now minus her head), for safekeeping. After the cloning
project proves to be a failure, Hojo moves back to Midgar permanently and
carries on research there. At some point he captures Nanaki for a series of
unknown tests and names him Red XIII.

any questions ?

[PhoenixAsh]

My only major issue with that version of events is this one:


- Far from dead, Sephiroth washes through the Life stream until he ends up at the Great North Cave. Having assimilated the knowledge of the Ancients while
in there he begins to formulate a plan to turn himself into a God. This
involves summoning a Meteor to cause a big enough wound on the planets surface
to make the Life stream rush to one place, where he can absorb it all. Over
the next 5 years he experiments with controlling the Sephiroth clones remotely
and projecting himself psychically. His physical body however remains in the
Great North Cave for the duration of the game.


It seems somewhat odd, that immediately after losing his mind and therefore giving a prime opportunity for someone to take control of him, he just happens to develop exactly the same desires and abilities possessed by Jenova.

[Zero Bahamut]

iv alwayz wondered y hojo gave nanaki the no. 13, it is wel known that he numbered al his clones, but y nanaki, maybe its jus his thing. . . . . . . .

[Big D]

Originally posted by PhoenixAsh
My only major issue with that version of events is this one:



It seems somewhat odd, that immediately after losing his mind and therefore giving a prime opportunity for someone to take control of him, he just happens to develop exactly the same desires and abilities possessed by Jenova. The presence of Jenova cells in SOLDIER members and clones caused them to be affected by Jenova's Reunion instinct; her instinctual drives and motivations probably rubbed off on Sephiroth in much the same way, just to a larger extent. There's no question that he was influenced.

There's also no question that it's not the actual Sephiroth's body the team pursues through the game, but I think that's pretty clear to all. However, plenty of evidence suggests that it's not simply Jenova's carcass in disguise. At the beginning of the journey, "Sephiroth" still believed that he was a Cetra, the "rightful heir to the Planet", and it wasn't until roughly the Temple of the Ancients when he began to declare that he and Jenova weren't Cetra, but rather something more dangerous. Jenova would've known all along she wasn't a Cetra, and wouldn't have bothered with the pretence of ignorance.iv alwayz wondered y hojo gave nanaki the no. 13, it is wel known that he numbered al his clones, but y nanaki, maybe its jus his thing. . . . . . . .Hojo numbered all of his specimens, just a way of cataloguing them. Also, it adds a bit of tension to the game when Nanaki realises that maybe he, too, could've been a victim of the same experiments that destroyed the minds of the clones.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hmm, I can't remember the wording "Sephiroth" uses prior to the Temple of the Ancients, but if he definitely claims to be a Cetra then it could be purely part of the act. They did need Cloud and Co. to follow them after all. I seem to remember a lot of the drive to go to the Temple coming from Aeris wanting to know about her past, not the black materia, though I do need to play it through again to be sure.

[Big D]

If the team had believed earnestly that Sephiroth was a Cetra, then there'd be no problems - they wouldn't bother pursuing him since their goals coincided. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to go through this pretence... look at it this way:

1: Party believes Sephiroth is a Cetra - they follow, to find out his evil plans and so Aeris can learn about herself.

2: Party believes that Sephiroth's power comes from an evil, infectious alien that wants to destroy everything - they follow, to find out his evil plans and stop them.

Same result either way.

[Raistlin]

The party didn't believe Jenova was Cetra. However, Sephiroth did.

Also, one thing you people haven't mentioned: it could be a combination of theories. For example, what if the Sephiroth you chase throughout the majority of disc 1 is actually Jenova, though the Sephiroth you meet in Temple of the Ancients(and briefly in City of the Ancients; those brief unsubstantial Sephiroths) are Sephiroth's "projected image?"

Or maybe I'm just a rambling idiot. But it seems to me that since there's some events which the Jenova theory can't explain, and others that the "projected image" theory can't explain, why not combine the two?

[Big D]

Originally posted by Raistlin
The party didn't believe Jenova was Cetra. However, Sephiroth did. I know, but the possibility was present in Aeris' mind, at least at first. "Sephiroth and I... do we have the same blood?"


Also, one thing you people haven't mentioned: it could be a combination of theories. For example, what if the Sephiroth you chase throughout the majority of disc 1 is actually Jenova, though the Sephiroth you meet in Temple of the Ancients(and briefly in City of the Ancients; those brief unsubstantial Sephiroths) are Sephiroth's "projected image?"

Or maybe I'm just a rambling idiot. But it seems to me that since there's some events which the Jenova theory can't explain, and others that the "projected image" theory can't explain, why not combine the two? Good point. There's no single conclusive answer to everything, which is probably why this's still being debated after so many years. I've long held that Sephiroth used his mind to interact and communicate with Jenova's body, disguising it in his form so he could be *free* again, and out there working his evil. In that sense, it's a projected image, but still dependent on Jenova's body to give it useful substance. This would explain why Sephiroth turns back into his own image after being disguised as Tifa to deceive Barret or Nanaki at the Whirlwind Maze.

[Raistlin]

I don't know what to do with you, D. You're the only intelligent FF7-player I know that still believes Sephiroth was the main evil. *shakes head in mock sadness*

[Big D]

Heh. Jenova was always in the background, a "puppetmaster" of sorts, but with no distinct "presence" in the game. A completely inhuman entity, virtually devoid of anything that a player could interpret or 'connect' with. Sephiroth provides a good means of personifying that evil, giving it a face and a unique identity, with virtually the same goals and values. It's like Exdeath taking human form in FFV, rather than having the party chase a tree around the world...
Jenova was more or less inert, at least the characters in the game appeared to think so. Gast and co. thought she was dead, which is a pretty reasonable assumption after millennia embedded in solid rock; Jenova never sought to break out of Shinra's confinement, even when they started extracting bits and pieces for experimentation purposes. (Of course, there's the additional theory that Jenova wanted those experiments to take place, and that even things like Mako reactors and the Wutai war were her doing, but I'll not go into that...) So basically, Jenova was either content to be used for years, or else was nearly devoid of active powers as a result of her treatment at the hands of the Cetra. That power naturally would return after being freed by Sephiroth and flung into the Lifestream, but even then it'd still be limited, presumably - beheading is often a bit of a setback, even for power-tripping alien busybodies.

Even then, Jenova's powers are apparently passive rather than active. Influencing minds, crafting illusions, leaving false trails. The only time Jenova's powers take an active role is when the illusory Sephiroth is around: the decision-making, the pontificating, the violence and bloodshed is all heralded by the actions of the being that looks, thinks, and reasons like Sephiroth. The final fights take place against beings with Sephiroth's approximate form. The fights against Jenova are quite telling: Birth, Life and Death comprise almost the entirety of Jenova's body, yet they never move or speak, only fighting like mindless things until they're destroyed - like they're running on instinct, perhaps a potent form of the Reunion instinct. The rest of Jenova is being lugged around in the form of Sephiroth. Then, the party reaches the North Cave, and it's time for Jenova's head to burst onto the scene: Jenova-SYNTHESIS, or perhaps one should say, Jenova-LEFTOVERS since that creature is little more than Jenova's head and a few extraneous chunks and tentacles. SYNTHESIS is clearly one of the most powerful opponents in the game, understandable since Jenova's head, and therefore her brain and mind, are at its core. However, the even more deadly foes are the ones that combine the powers of Sephiroth, Jenova and the Planet together into one - Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth.

Without the Sephiroth component, Jenova is consistently fallible and less effectual, throughout the game. Hence my belief that Sephiroth was a big part of things. We know that Sephiroth, not Jenova, used the Black Materia and called the Meteor, because the Materia was handed over to him. That act would make no sense unless he wanted to unleash its power and reap the rewards; otherwise Jenova simply would've got the orb delivered to her, and done the deed without her son's aid. Jenova clearly needed Sephiroth in some way, and for that reason he lead the charge and was at the forefront of their combined assault upon the world.

Hmm. Been a while since I posted anything that long-winded. *Searches for life*

[PhoenixAsh]

I stand by the idea that SYNTHESIS is more than just the head, the name alone suggests it is the first part of the reunion. The later bosses indicate the final steps in the reunion, after merging with Sephiroth (one of the last main sources of Jenova left to be joined).

As you said Jenova's power are largely passive (though she's still damn tough physically). Doesn't this suggest though that instead of Sephiroth being the brains behind the muscle of Jenova, it was in fact the other way around?

[Raistlin]

Jenova didn't do any violence? She wiped out the Cetra!

After being dug up, she was too weak physically to do anything herself. Hence, Sephiroth. Sephiroth, before he went insane, was cold and calculating. He didn't care. After he went insane, he was sadistic and blood-craving. That sounds like influence from Jenova to me.

[Big D]

Originally posted by Raistlin
Jenova didn't do any violence? She wiped out the Cetra!
I meant, after she got dealt to by the Cetra. She was uniquely destructive before then, but rather inert afterward.I stand by the idea that SYNTHESIS is more than just the head, the name alone suggests it is the first part of the reunion. The later bosses indicate the final steps in the reunion, after merging with Sephiroth (one of the last main sources of Jenova left to be joined).
And that stands to reason, too. However, take a look at SYNTHESIS - it's more than just the head, certainly, but the head is the only distinct part of it. The rest is mainly empty space... After the defeat of Jenova.DEATH, there was nothing left of Jenova's body, hence Sephiroth's timely assertion that "this body has no more use". SYNTHESIS, I believe, includes all the cells released from the bodies of the clones that actually made it to the crater. BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH are made of bits of Jenova's main body, dropped off in an attempt to thwart the party. They were killed, then apparently ceased to be. The Clones, however, were able to make it to the North Cave - because there was an actual mind they could influence and drive. I doubt a piece of brainless matter on its own could do a heck of a lot; the Clones were essential to the Reunion process - as were Cloud and Sephiroth.As you said Jenova's power are largely passive (though she's still damn tough physically). Doesn't this suggest though that instead of Sephiroth being the brains behind the muscle of Jenova, it was in fact the other way around?Jenova's psychological influence, too, appears to be somewhat passive. The Clones, because of their Jenova cells, were susceptible to Sephiroth's summons; Jenova's powers were widely used by the main foes. But Jenova didn't appear to make many conscious decisions for Sephiroth. She gave ideas, he followed, but appeared to be in control of himself. As Jenova is a part of him, so too would he share her natural impulses. If your father likes swords and you do too, then that's a sign of inheritance or upbringing rather than direct manipulation. Jenova appeared content to let Sephiroth handle his grand schemes for divinity and conquest, since he was equally determined to bond with her after becoming the new "God". That part of his desire may well have been her doing, whether actively or passively is less important. She could just bide her time, waiting to be re-assembled, waiting to become whole and powerful again, once her son had defeated all those who had defeated her before.

[-N-]

No one seems to remember what Hojo says in the North Cave in Disc II... I don't remember verbatim myself, but I'll do my best to recap here...

Hojo is talking about his Reunion theory in the North Cave, and he says his initial impression was that the clones would move to Midgar where Jenova was being stored. HOWEVER, Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra building. This is the trail of blood the party chases in Disc I in the Shinra HQ. Jenova manifests itself as Sephiroth - that's why Sephiroth's sword is stuck through President Shinra. Obviously if Jenova can do that, it can make itself another sword, thus becoming the Sephiroth image you chase through the first 1 1/2 discs.
Hojo then says that the presence of Sephiroth at the North Cave proves that Jenova and the clones (in short, all of Jenova's cells) came to the North Cave through Sephiroth's will. He says Sephiroth is the one in control of the clones. He says Sephiroth is not merely content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream, he wishes to directly manipulate the clones (I believe that's verbatim).

So, I suppose this evidence comes out on Big D's side by showing Sephiroth is behind the whole show. Using his Jenova cells to manipulate Cloud, the clones, and even the body of Jenova, Sephiroth runs the show.

The only thing left to ponder is why does Sephiroth go nuts in the first place? 5 years ago, in Nibelheim?

[Big D]

The only thing left to ponder is why does Sephiroth go nuts in the first place? 5 years ago, in Nibelheim?This could be due to a number of things, and ultimately I'm not sure if it alters our understanding much:

As far as Cloud can tell, Sephiroth went beserk after reading Shinra's reports and discovering that he was meant to be a "reincarnated" Cetra, and that the Cetra had all died in an immense struggle while their weaker cousins humans, fled. He felt hurt and betrayed by everyone and everything, and wanted to take the world back with his mother, Jenova. His insane but doggedly resolute rampage could've been due to a subtle influence from Jenova, as well. She can project images and whisper into people's minds, so she could have added her voice to Sephiroth's simmering resentment, pushing him over the edge.

[astrognats]

In the fourth battle, Cloud fights Sephiroth face to face,
without the power of Jenova to contend with...and utterly slaughters
Sephiroth. Yet, Sephiroth seemed so strong during the game. How can he
be this weak? The answer is simple. Sephiroth seems weak because
Sephiroth is weak. He is merely a puppet of Jenova, hence the
revelation of the true villain of Final Fantasy VII.
So now that we know that Sephiroth's not the real villain,
what exactly is Jenova, anyway? Let's journey to Icicle Inn, watch a
certain video tape which just happens to be titled "The Original Crisis,"
and find out. When we go into Professor Gast’s old house, we see a video
of him and Ifalna. Ifalna explains that the Cetra were wiped out by
something called 'the Crisis from the Sky.'
This creature was an alien life form that came from outer
space and insinuated itself into the Cetra's various cultures throughout
the world, gained their trust, and then spread a plague into their
society gradually killing almost all of them off. It also crashed
something enormous into the Planet (possibly Meteor), causing a wound,
at the northern crater, which was never able to heal. Ifalna describes
the creatures appearance in this line, "When the Cetra were preparing to
depart from the land they loved...That's when it appeared. It looked like
...our...our dead mothers...and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres
of their past." Whatever this creature was, it had the ability to reach
into people minds and show them illusions, thus altering their memories.
It is interesting that Sephiroth calls the crater the Promised
Land when he kills Aeris, when it is, in fact, an injury that threatens
the planet (another one of the games illusions). After the plague, a
few of the Ancients managed to survive, track the creature down, and
seal it away. However they weren't able to destroy it because of its
remarkable ability to replicate itself. In the second video, we find
out the name of this 'Crisis from the Sky' and the name is, surprise,
Jenova. And poor old brilliant, but doomed Professor Gast, what can he
do with this information but turn away from Ifalna, as if deeply
disturbed by something? Hey, didn't he head up some scientific
experiment for the Shinra called 'The Jenova Project?' or something?
So now we know that Jenova killed off the Cetra, whereas as
Sephiroth puts the blame on "those who appeared that disliked their
journey" for their demise and believes he and Jenova to be the sole
survivors of the Cetra as revealed in his revelation to Cloud/Zack in
the Shinra mansion basement. Jenova was sealed away and forgotten. Two
thousand years later and thirty years before the beginning of the game,
Jenova is rediscovered. In the years that immediately follow a huge
world war breaks out and the first Mako Reactors are created. Is this a
coincidence? When Sephiroth is in the Shinra basement, going insane,
he reads aloud this document "Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako
Reactor number one approved for use." Wow, the first Mako reactor was
set up exactly at the time when the Jenova Project, and the creation
of Sephiroth, was set into motion.
Jenova was not simply manipulating Sephiroth. She was
manipulating everything. She was the founder of the Shinra (translated
as 'God') Corporation. Remember when Cloud freaks out just before he
sets the bombs up that are to destroy the Mako Reactors in Midgar?
This is because he is going against the will of Jenova. She
subliminally guided the scientists under her wing to create Sephiroth,
her 'son.' She set up the Mako Reactors to weaken the planet and
prepare it for its easy destruction. Look at the seal around Holy
before the final battle and you'll see that it consists of a red
colored rock structure, just like Meteor. Jenova used the power of the
Black Materia in order to contain Holy. Remember how the Shinra
originally were weapons manufacturers who grew in wealth from the war
that occurred? She probably started that war as part of her plan to
attain the wealth to build the Mako reactors which would be her tool for
her enslavement of the human race. She even implanted her cells into
the most elite of her army, SOLDIER, in order to have a powerful
fighting force of slaves to serve her. She accomplishes her ends in the
present, just as she did in the past, by insinuating herself into the
ruling society, taking control of it, and manipulating it, all the
while keeping her true self and her efforts unseen.

[-N-]

A well-conceived argument, but I have a few issues with it...

In the fourth battle, Cloud fights Sephiroth face to face, without the power of Jenova to contend with...and utterly slaughters Sephiroth. Yet, Sephiroth seemed so strong during the game. How can he be this weak? The answer is simple. Sephiroth seems weak because
Sephiroth is weak. He is merely a puppet of Jenova, hence the revelation of the true villain of Final Fantasy VII.

I don't see how this relates to Sephiroth's manipulation of the Jenova Reunion. If Jenova was the central villain, Jenova would be the center of the Reunion, not Sephiroth. Also, you seem to dismiss Sephiroth too quickly - did you consider the possibility that Sephiroth is strong, but Cloud is stronger? Also, did you consider that the last battle could be in terms of consciousness, as the discussion hinged on earlier?

A more general concern (directed mostly at astro and Big D, but whoever else thinks this as well :D) relates to Jenova's passive abilities. We know for a fact that Jenova has not messed around in Tifa's head, since Jenova is not present in Tifa, and since what Tifa remembers actually happened. We also know for a fact that Jenova is present in Cloud. Now, does Jenova influence Cloud to take Zack's story, or does Cloud do it himself? There is no direct evidence for either case, so we can't rely on this to help us examine Jenova's passive abilities. Thus, the only two explicit instances of Jenova's abilities in the game is when a) "Sephiroth" shows Cloud and Tifa Nibelheim at the North Cave, and b) when Ifalna recounts the "dead mothers and brothers" - presumably effects of Jenova's spell or whatever. I will dismiss part b) by saying that Jenova actively killed the Cetra through viruses or whatever - it wasn't passive. Therefore, all we're left with is "Sephiroth" saying Jenova has all these grand abilities, when "Sephiroth" is actually a manifestation of Jenova. Bluff, anyone? Especially given that Jenova is not in Tifa's memories, and is inconclusively so in Cloud?

[Erdrick the Hero]

If i was an alien and i was trying to strike fear into people, i would definitly make myself out to be what everyone feared.

Everyone fears the most powerful person. Especially if that person kills at will and unmercifully.

astrognats... im right there with ya man. i feel ya dawg

btw, something that was said and never cleared up on the first page. the two people that they are talking about in the reports are Zack and Cloud. the stronger being Zack and the weaker being Cloud.

[-N-]

Another piece of evidence against Jenova being the catalyst for... well... most things:

Godo says in Wutai he himself started the war against Shinra. Do Yuffie's quest if you don't believe me. He started it for his own selfish purposes. Now, he couldn't have been influenced by Jenova, because he never met Jenova, or rather, Jenova never met him. In addition, he has no Jenova cells. Jenova never met Tifa; Jenova's cells aren't in Tifa, therefore Jenova could not and did not alter Tifa's memories. (This is a conclusion drawn from earlier direct evidence.) Therefore, the same applies for Godo. So Jenova couldn't have been behind the war if Godo was.






edit/addition: More evidence for Sephiroth and against Jenova...

Look at the seal around Holy before the final battle and you'll see that it consists of a red colored rock structure, just like Meteor. Jenova used the power of the Black Materia in order to contain Holy.

That was Sephiroth containing Holy, not Jenova. Bugenhagen reveals in Disc II in the City of the Ancients that it is Sephiroth getting the way of Holy, not Jenova. Play the part again if you don't believe it.

[Big D]

That was Sephiroth containing Holy, not Jenova. Bugenhagen reveals in Disc II in the City of the Ancients that it is Sephiroth getting the way of Holy, not Jenova. Play the part again if you don't believe it. In the interests of playing devil's advocate, I should point out that everyone in the game believed Sephiroth was behind everything. Jenova was never really a big deal for most of them, just some mean old research specimen trying to wreak havoc.Another piece of evidence against Jenova being the catalyst for... well... most things:

Godo says in Wutai he himself started the war against Shinra. Do Yuffie's quest if you don't believe me. He started it for his own selfish purposes. Now, he couldn't have been influenced by Jenova, because he never met Jenova, or rather, Jenova never met him. In addition, he has no Jenova cells. Jenova never met Tifa; Jenova's cells aren't in Tifa, therefore Jenova could not and did not alter Tifa's memories. (This is a conclusion drawn from earlier direct evidence.) Therefore, the same applies for Godo. So Jenova couldn't have been behind the war if Godo was.Actually, Jenova's powers of illusion can extend to those who aren't infected with her cells. The Cetra was deceived and manipulated; the entire party was brought into Sephiroth's illusion of Nibelheim at the Whirlwind Maze... Jenova's powers are far-reaching, just no so potent against those who don't carry her cells. Yet I digress.

I agree that your evidence does support the view that Sephiroth is one bad dude, in terms of his actions.

[-N-]

I considered those same points before constructing my points, but the reason I dismissed them were as follows.

1. I felt Jenova actively, rather than passively, screwed around with the Cetra. I still don't understand how exactly she killed a bunch of them off other than spreading a virus, but isn't that active? (I don't see what it has to do with Ifalna's "our dead mothers and brothers" rant, but whatever.)

2. the entire party was brought into Sephiroth's illusion of Nibelheim at the Whirlwind Maze
Exactly. Thanks. :D
I assume by Sephiroth you meant Jenova, but at this point Jenova's main body has been defeated and Sephiroth is projecting these visions, not Jenova.

3. I'm not sure if that's exactly a devil's advocate position, but the first point raised is a good one. Everyone in the game believes it, why shouldn't you?

[Big D]

I don't see what it has to do with Ifalna's "our dead mothers and brothers" rant, but whatever.In order to get close enough to the Cetra undetected, Jenova disguised herself as the fallen relatives of the remaining Cetra. They'd welcome home the loved ones they'd presumed were dead, only to realise they'd been fooled. By then, it'd be too late. They'd get infected and transform.
I assume by Sephiroth you meant Jenova, but at this point Jenova's main body has been defeated and Sephiroth is projecting these visions, not Jenova.Yep. Sephiroth's powers are almost entirely derived from Jenova; without her cells in his body, he'd be more or less a normal human. Her powers of illusion were passed onto him. I just mentioned that bit about the Nibelheim illusion because it shows that Sephiroth can construct images in the minds of those without Jenova cells.

Jenova's powers lived on in Sephiroth; he was able to combine her magical abilities with the human elements of greed and pride, becoming something perhaps even more threatening. The worst of both worlds, you could say.

[-N-]

Yeah - that fits in with Hojo's theory about how Sephiroth manipulated things through Jenova cells.

[Raistlin]

Yep. Sephiroth's powers are almost entirely derived from Jenova; without her cells in his body, he'd be more or less a normal human.

True.


Her powers of illusion were passed onto him. I just mentioned that bit about the Nibelheim illusion because it shows that Sephiroth can construct images in the minds of those without Jenova cells.
Why Sephiroth? Because you see him there? That illusion was, as Sephiroth stated, the power of Jenova.



Jenova's powers lived on in Sephiroth; he was able to combine her magical abilities with the human elements of greed and pride, becoming something perhaps even more threatening. The worst of both worlds, you could say.
Jenova still controlled her cells. Jenova was still sentient. She wasn't some mindless automaton. The Reunion was so Jenova could reclaim her cells. She led Cloud there because she needed Meteor. She kept Sephiroth because she needed him to summon Meteor, and she was too physically weak to do battle.

Sephiroth was blocking Holy for the sole reason that he's the one that summoned Meteor.

If you play through the flashback again, Sephiroth does a complete turnaround on his viewpoints. In one day, he arrives on the conclusion that everyone else is "traitors to the Cetra" and needs to be killed. That has to be Jenova's influence. No, she's not physically active, but that doesn't mean she's brain-dead. She still had full access to the illusionary powers that led to the destruction of the Cetra race. When she was dug up, after 2000 years in the ground(or however long it was), she'd have to be bloody pissed. Why would Sephiroth want to become a God? Why would Sephiroth, who was cold-hearted and calculating, want to destroy the human race? He didn't. Jenova did(she didn't want to "become a god", but she did want to destroy life).

Think about it: Sephiroth had an excuse for everything. When he destroyed Nibelheim, it was because he was killing to traitors to the Cetra. When he summoned Meteor, it was to amass the power of the Lifestream. The first reason was a falsehood(I say fed to him by Jenova), why not the second one too?

Jenova still had access to all of her cells and their powers. It'd be ludicrous is she sat back and did nothing herself. Implausible.

[Big D]

Jenova still controlled her cells. Jenova was still sentient. She wasn't some mindless automaton. The Reunion was so Jenova could reclaim her cells.Indeed, she's still very much sentient; however, individual and scattered cells aren't sentient. The Reuinion is purely an instinctive response, a powerful "homing signal" drawing the dismembered entity's body back together.
If you play through the flashback again, Sephiroth does a complete turnaround on his viewpoints. In one day, he arrives on the conclusion that everyone else is "traitors to the Cetra" and needs to be killed. That has to be Jenova's influence.He got all that from the Shinra texts in the library, the documentation about the Jenova project, all compiled before Gast learned what Jenova really was, and never updated after Hojo found Gast's tapes at Icicle Inn. The research said Jenova was a Cetra; Sephiroth believed it because it had Gast's name on it. He learned the truth by travelling the Lifestream, and probably from getting told by Jenova.
Why would Sephiroth want to become a God?By becoming a God, he could gain dominion over the world that was "rightfully" his, a belief he formed when he still thought he was a Cetra; by the time he knew the truth, he no longer cared - he said that Jenova (and as a result, he himself) was far superior to the Cetra, so he was the rightful ruler anyway. Becoming a God would allow him to bond with Jenova into a single life, a truly unstoppable and powerful force, ultimately becoming one with the Planet itself. This "bonding with the Planet"
is what Sephiroth is doing for all the time he's dormant in the crater after Meteor is summoned. Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth are the "Birth of a God" (to quote the soundtrack), when Sephiroth begins to join with the Planet and Jenova. Sephiroth's plan wasn't entirely his own doing or entirely Jenova's; he gained a lot of knowledge from the Lifestream during his years there, including the Cetras' understanding of the Lifestream's intimate workings.
There's no disputing Jenova's involvement in, or importance to, Sephiroth's destructive plans; however, she was clearly dependent on him to carry out some of her intentions. If she had all her prior strength, she'd merely have done it herself.

[Stayin Dizzy]

I don't know if people are still reading this thread but I just paused ff7 when they are on the ship toward costa del sol. It is the first actual confrontation of seph and cloud (besides the flashbacks) and seph says "who are you" to cloud, then cloud goes off about "its me (blah blah blah)", and then you fight the first part of jenova. After the battle the tenticle is flopping around and cloud assumes sephiroth must have been carrying it. I think it makes sense that it was merely jenova controlling a sephiroth clone...just thought I'd add that bit

[zacks_clone]

Originally posted by Daryn
I don't know if people are still reading this thread but I just paused ff7 when they are on the ship toward costa del sol. It is the first actual confrontation of seph and cloud (besides the flashbacks) and seph says "who are you" to cloud, then cloud goes off about "its me (blah blah blah)", and then you fight the first part of jenova. After the battle the tenticle is flopping around and cloud assumes sephiroth must have been carrying it. I think it makes sense that it was merely jenova controlling a sephiroth clone...just thought I'd add that bit

Yup, something i had not remembered, but it supports my point. Jenova was controlling a Clone. A Clone who did not know anything about Cloud strife at the time, perhaps because Jenova asumed him to be dead, or still in the tube, or just another clone(merely because of the cells in Cloud). After this incounter, it would make enough sense for Jenova to sort of give this Clone the rest of Sephiroths thoughts.

[Big D]

However, it's known for a fact that there are no successful Sephiroth clones. Cloud was as close as they got to a viable, functioning re-creation... and even that experiment was deemed a 'failure' by Hojo. If there had been a living, breathing lookalike gallavanting around, it would've been noted with enthusiasm.
The "who are you?" line suggests one of two things:
(a) The image seen on the ship (and remember, it could pass through solid objects, so it plainly wasn't anything human) was actually Jenova herself, hence the lack of knowledge of who Cloud was; or
(b) It was Seph's actual personal image, just he didn't immediately remember the name of a man he'd met once before, and seen for only a few minutes, five years in the past before taking that eventful plunge and getting his mind inundated with Mako.
In my opinion, it just serves to create the 'conflict' with Cloud's own 'memory' of having been Seph's "war buddy".

[-N-]

Ditto Big D. *tries not to reraise the dead ghosts of conversation*

[zacks_clone]

Ah, but Sephiroth had to have known Cloud before he got tossed into the mako stream. Remember, Sephiorth commented on Cloud returning to his home town. "How does it feel?". That must mean he knew Cloud alittle better then what your stating. Zack (Cloud, speaking as Zack) stated that he and Sephiroth were war buddies. Zack and Cloud were very good friends. There may be a link there.

Now, as far as Sephiroth showing an image of himself, that could not exactly be possible. Sephiroth my have had some experiments done on him, but that does not mean he can simply creat images of himself. He is still human. If your argument is to be that the Jenova cells allowed him to do so, possibly. If Jenova was with him at all times. Jenova would be powerful enough to cast images, NOT Sephiroth because of the cells. He could will his "mother" to creat the images because of the cells, but he himself would not be possible to make them. If so, Cloud could have easly done it aswell. Not to mention Vincent, Hojo, and a great many others.

Now, for it being Jenova...It couldnt be correct either. Why would such a being travel? to simply lead Cloud on? If she could creat an image that could kill, and hold the black matetria, why couldnt she just take the black materia herself (not being harmed in the process,seing how it was an image she created) and why would she need to travel?Or better yet, why Cloud?

[-N-]

I believe those questions are answered here (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43531&perpage=30&pagenumber=2).

(Oh look at that! It's the SAME THREAD!)

< / bitter >

[MooNScar]

Alright, time to lay down the law. You are arguing either
a) Sephiroth made a spirtual projection of his being
-OR-
b)Jenova was the culprit, and was aiding Sephiroth

I would say that the first in more likley. Who is to say Sephiroth would be unable to project himself across the world, like puppet master? This is the same guy who transformed into the One-Winged-Angel. The same guy who called down Meteor from the sky. And Sephiroth isn't human. Jenova/Cetra -ish. Cloud is the same way with a human mother.

As to address the second possibilty, it is also plausable. There are several occurances in the game where Jenova shows favor to Sephiroth, and seems to almost cater to him. It would seem to me that Jenova knows her own incompetency. Perhaps that isn't the best word. She knows her own inefficency. She knows that she cannot be as powerful as Sephiroth. Sephiroth regards Jenova as 'mother'. Who is to say that Jenova doesn't regard Sephiroth as 'son'? She called the renuion for him, so that he could awaken and claim the Black Materia, she was able to manipulate and ultimatley aid Sephiroth in his quest to be successful. After all, isn't that what all mothers want?

[Big D]

Originally posted by zacks_clone
Ah, but Sephiroth had to have known Cloud before he got tossed into the mako stream. Remember, Sephiorth commented on Cloud returning to his home town. "How does it feel?". That must mean he knew Cloud alittle better then what your stating. Zack (Cloud, speaking as Zack) stated that he and Sephiroth were war buddies. Zack and Cloud were very good friends. There may be a link there.Zack's friendship with Sephiroth became Cloud's, but only in Cloud's delusion. The "how does it feel?" line might've really been spoken, or else Sephiroth was just making small talk, having overheard conversations in the van between Zack and his friend Cloud.


Now, as far as Sephiroth showing an image of himself, that could not exactly be possible. Sephiroth my have had some experiments done on him, but that does not mean he can simply creat images of himself. He is still human. If your argument is to be that the Jenova cells allowed him to do so, possibly. If Jenova was with him at all times. Jenova would be powerful enough to cast images, NOT Sephiroth because of the cells. He could will his "mother" to creat the images because of the cells, but he himself would not be possible to make them. If so, Cloud could have easly done it aswell. Not to mention Vincent, Hojo, and a great many others.By that time in the game, Sephiroth has spent five years in the Lifestream, amassing power and knowledge beyond human capacity. 'Projecting an illusory image' is one of Jenova's basic tricks, and we know that Sephiroth posseses some of her powers. We also saw images being projected at the Whirlwind Maze. "I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I learned to diffuse my will through the Lifestream". He's way beyond human by that stage, he's already begun to 'become one with the Planet'.


Now, for it being Jenova...It couldnt be correct either. Why would such a being travel? to simply lead Cloud on? If she could creat an image that could kill, and hold the black matetria, why couldnt she just take the black materia herself (not being harmed in the process,seing how it was an image she created) and why would she need to travel?Or better yet, why Cloud? This supports some of my arguments. It's contended that what you follow throughout the game is Jenova's almost lifeless body, headless and battered by two millennia of confinement and by Hojo's experiments. Unable to function on its own beyond the mere "homing instinct" of the Jenova Reunion, ebing used by Sephiroth as a 'conduit' through which his projected will can have a substantial form. He wanted to travel and command, and so enticed the Clones to heed their Reunion instinct and follow him to the North Crater, he his real body - and Jenova's head - awaited, amidst the immense energy of the 'promised land'. The Black Materia was guarded by the traps of the Temple, so the Clones were sent in to get it, since they're both expendable and manipulable. The remaining Clones staggered up to the North Cave, and were slaughtered to release their Jenova cells. Then, Jenova DEATH - the last part of Jenova's body - was killed, so Sephiroth had to resort to Cloud to deliver the Materia up to him...

[aeris2001x2]

i find these topics oftern loop and alot is down to opinion anyway. i can just say that sephiroth was the main villan and jenova was the grand manipulator.

to be honest to say jenova was the main villan would nod towards ff8 and ff9. we hated ultimecia, despite her being the main villan cause all she did was manipulate, she had no personality. necron also manipulated kuja ( very loosely,with no direct links for he wanted sumone 2 prove that life was worthless on a cosmic scale before he destroyed it) and yet he didnt do anything in the game.

so we cling to sepiroth being the main man. maybe because he was human or just cooler. yes he was doing jenovas bidding. as far as i can see he was aware of her motives and wanted the same.

the only contrast to this is if whether u believe sephiroth truely wanted 2 become a god. jenova just wanted to end life.

which would have happened if meteor had struck? would sephiroths plan occured? hence he controlled his very cells who wanted no life?

or would the planet have blown up, hence sephiroth was manipulated and betrayed by jenova,the very source of his power?

damn i,ve confused my self. it really is open 2 opinion who was manpulating who. or maybe no one was? sephiroth was directly injected by jenova cells in the womb of luceria?(person in cave by hotspring, vincients love) so the cells were in his very genes!

so in a perverse way, jenova had become human and sephiroth part jenova. that is why all the other experiments "failed". it had 2 be done at conception and allow these genes to merge...

so a NEW entity was born. a deep passion of jenova to hold life in contempt, yet the human frailty that drove him mad that he was not human, felt he had been betrayed.

maybe the madness of sephiroth at nibhelm(sp) was also jenovas too? maybe she couldnt bare the fact that she had become part of the very life she detested so much?

so many questions to chew on! wow i just read this back and it aint bad 4 a 3 year old memory amd having only completed it 4 times.

so yeah. man ff7 is just so deep man. this is so why its the greatest story ever told,as well as the greatest game ever! imho lol.

[Sephiroth_Lionhear88]

*terrible headache :mad2: * man this game is just to complicated. *takes some more medicine for headache* I guess it's meant to be so complicated

[-N-]

Way to revive this thread for no good reason at all.

[aeris2001x2]

lol i think this topic does needs to be life 2ed. i want a bigger headache.

[Storm]

There was a similar thread to this almost a year ago. It may still be in the archives. Anyhow, it was a great argument between myself, Big D, PhoenixAsh, Raistlin, and some other person. I recommend reading it if it's still there. I'll have to play through FF7 again to find some more evidence that Sephiroth is NOT the main evil.

[Draupnir2005]

I think that the storyline was never meant to go this far, personally. I think Squaresoft meant it to be about Sephiroth wanting to become a god like figure, and whatever was said was to be taken face value. I think that what we have here, is a bunch of people who have read so far into it, they have found meanings Squaresoft never meant to write, and now because of this we have a argument that is hard to answer.

I, myself think that Tifa and Sephiroth are the main evils. However, I feel that maybe what we are arguing here will be answered in Advent Children, although maybe not. Maybe Square-Enix read these threads and laugh. I'm sure though, if Advent Children did explain this... More arguments would arise.

P.S. This is my first post... Hi Y'all.

[Erdrick Holmes]

So wait, Cloud can only remember being a 1st class officer in soldier to help Sephiroth with the reactor situation. But what really happens is that Cloud's memories were only altered to what Tifa remembers because of the Jenova Cells Cloud had injected into him by Hojo. Am I right or is there something else? And when Cloud first returns to Nibelhiem everyone keeps saying that the town never burned down five years ago, did it burn down or did it get rebuilt and the citizens just have some kind of Jenova related mindflush?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

At Nibelheim, five years ago, Cloud was really just one of those faceless sub-SOLDIER soldier guys, but having been so messed up by Hojo's experiments (and since his dream of many years had been to join SOLDIER and impress Tifa), he took on Zack's memories and role in the Nibelheim story. If you remember the photograph of Sephiroth, Zack, and Tifa, what Cloud basically did was mentally paste his own picture over Zack.

Since those helmets cover the soldier guys' faces, Tifa never knew that Cloud had been there five years ago; she honestly thought that the last time they had seen each other before Midgar was when he went off to join SOLDIER seven years ago. So, when Cloud finally comes back to his senses, he actually recalls the whole story, which is more than just what Tifa knows about what happened.

The current citizens of Nibelheim claim that the town never burned down because Shin-Ra wants to cover the incident up; those "citizens" are just actors on the company payroll. The black-cloaked Sephiroth "clones" who show up on the way to the Reunion are the survivors from the fire and massacre five years ago, who were gathered up and entered into the Jenova Project when they were found. They hang out inside the houses in town because, after all, that's where they used to live.

[Erdrick Holmes]

So Cloud sorta made up the story of being in SOLDIER dispite the fact that he never made it?

[The Man]

His mind made the story up. He actually believed that he had been in SOLDIER for most of the course of the game; it was only during his experience in the Lifestream that he finally began to sort things out, I believe.

Kishi got pretty much everything right. Earlier in this thread I think I posted that there's nowhere in the game that Jenova is noted as having the ability to shapeshift, but people from FFOnline pointed out several passages that noted that very thing when I brought it up about two weeks ago. So yeah, that's another nail in the coffin for all arguments except Fake Sephiroth Is Jenova.

[Starcrest]

In the flashback, if Cloud was in fact stabbed in the shoulder, how would he find the strength to lift up like a 6ft sword with a (lets guess) somewhere between 150-220 pound guy?

[aeris2001x2]

it was clearly the inner strength he possessed fueled by his self-loathing for his perceived weakness, love for Tifa and hatred for Sephiroth. just view it as his lv 5 limit or his spiritual power coming to the surface.

[Lehteb]

Cloud has always been stronger than he thought he was as a child/ young man. He doesn't recognize his own true strength until after he comes out of the lifestream.

Oh, and everyone in the world (or at least those who are reading this) needs to read FF7 Mythologies, by John Brittenham. A small section of this was quoted by astrognats, but the full article (mine is 21 pages...) is a good overview of the true story of FF7.

[Starcrest]

I agree with that he was fueld by anger and rage and other what not, but of the sword was lodged in his shoulder, and in the space from shoulder to arm, that would cause a great deal of pain...and that swords huge, and probably weighs alot even WITHOUT the 150-220 pound guy at the end

[Draupnir2005]

Shiva's Effect, are you calling Sephiroth obese? I'm 6 foot 3 inches and I weigh less than that- and I ain't skinny. :cry:

[Starcrest]

I'm not calling ne one obese. I know a wrestler Jeff Hardy he's 6' 2" and he weighs 210, so i was guessing, that's about average for his age and height

EDIT- I'm like 5' 8" and i weigh 167lbs, so, yeah

[nickwilson]

man this is a long thread. oh well the people that made the game put the open story line just for this reason. to keep people thinking of a game or story. so if they wanted to bring it back people would jump at it. like the ff avc movie coming out soon. i will go to it. ok now to the point if there is any. :tongue: Sephiroth is a clone and a image but only through the cell or genes of jenova that is millions of years old that needs help from the very thing she hates humans. but jenova finds out the Sephiroth is "part" of her and make him her "son" the work together but try to out minipulate each other after they learn each others plans and the truth about each other. cloud tifa 13 were put to work by both trying to get what they wanted one to rule and one to destory in the end the both lost. to the one enemy they both hated cloud was human and cloud killed Sephiroth. they thought that together they would make him a puppet like the clone or "towns people" if u go that route. but in the end good wins and the world is safe and cloud becomes a cross dresser lol sorry had to put that in. they need more humar in games that get to hard core the mood needs to lighten like in disgaea hour of darkness it is funny and a good tactics game if u like thoughs i do. sorry for the none ff refrence. :rolleyes2 but i would have to say that this is one of the most indepth threads if have read. talk to u later have to chech downloads of the ff avc trailer 1 and 2 bye

[Starcrest]

of course it's indepth, so much stuff to talk about, so much stuff to argue about, it's almost endless...besides this is onea the most badass's main evil character since like.....a while