Why did it happen to Vivi? (spoiler warning)

[Master Quan]

In the end of Final Fantasy IX.......VIVI DIES!!! Why!? WHY???!!! I just wish it could have been someone else, perhaps that prat Zidane, but noooooooooooo it was Vivi!! Who else feels the same way?!

[moston kid]

i hate that to because me and vivi have somthing in commen we're small i havent completed it yet but hearing that digists me why can't it be quina i hate him
gets a figure of quina and throws a dart at him/her lands in the face

[Flying Mullet]

But Vivi's not a person, so it's okay if it dies.

[moston kid]

he is in my books

[zacks_clone]

i didnt think he died...i thought he was actually one of the blackmages running around.didnt it actually show vivi walking through the town?

[Flying Mullet]

Vivi never was alive, he was a remote controlled puppet run by Zidane.

[zacks_clone]

sort of like cait sith??

[Flying Mullet]

Exactly. :)

[DocFrance]

You're a horrible person :p

[Del Murder]

I don't remember him dying. But everyone dies eventually.

[PeTeRL90]

What I'm still wondering.... is how Vivi got so many kids in such a short timespan.

[DocFrance]

Originally posted by Del Murder
I don't remember him dying. But everyone dies eventually. It's not specifically stated, but its generally accepted that he did "stop." Sort of like most people accept that Laguna is Squall's father.

[Del Murder]

Oh ok, I generally don't assume things like that.

[Kirobaito]

Along the same lines about Vivi's demise: if he's a robot of sorts, how does he have kids?

[SuperPac]

No, it showed him in Alexandria. And then his kids. At least, I assumed that was him...

[moston kid]

why did it happen nooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im gonna compete it now im only at disc 4 and it is broke have to buy a new game

[Dragonus]

You have to remember that Vivi was ony a proto-type to begin with, he shouldn't still be around at all, but he managed to fall into the ocean =/

The words being spoke at the end of the game(just before the final FMV) were Vivi's last few thoughts.

[Sefie1999AD]

Originally posted by Dragonus
The words being spoke at the end of the game(just before the final FMV) were Vivi's last few thoughts.

*SPOILERS!!!*



There's no proof about it being Vivi or that the speaking character had died. I always thought it was all the characters who said those words in the ending. For example, Freya saying her words before her scene, Beatrix saying hers etc.

About "I guess we all have to say goodbye some day", I don't think it's because of death that they had to say goodbye - seeing as FF9's theme is life, I think it was because of life. The ending about Zidane and Dagger separating, the adventure ending and everyone going their separate ways was more like they each chose to live their own lives and said goodbye to their friends. And I know they went separate ways because when Tantalus returns to Alexandria in the ending, Dagger says, "The theater ship will arrive any minute. It's been so long... I can't wait to see everyone."

[Dragonus]

Originally posted by Sephiroth1999AD

There's no proof about it being Vivi or that the speaking character had died. I always thought it was all the characters who said those words in the ending. For example, Freya saying her words before her scene, Beatrix saying hers etc.No proof? Then I believe Square's statement would contradict that, Square did say that Vivi was the one in the ending and it was published on their FFIX section for some time.

[Sefie1999AD]

Originally posted by Dragonus
No proof? Then I believe Square's statement would contradict that, Square did say that Vivi was the one in the ending and it was published on their FFIX section for some time.

Never seen that. Do you have any proof about the statement's existence? Oh, and those who make Square web/gamesites or strategy guides aren't the game developers, so their information can also be wrong.

Besides, as someone who analyzes stories a lot, I know that there is no correct and official answer about story events. Gaps inside stories mean the reader/viewer/player can think whatever he or she decides to fill the gaps, and there is neither correct nor wrong interpretation of the storyline. So that's why, nobody can say that I'm wrong about the ending events. Of course, I can't prove you wrong either, but as I said, even if Vivi said those words, that doesn't mean he's dead. A "farewell to friends" speech doesn't mean someone dies.

[Flying Mullet]

Well as Vivi was manufactured it could have just as easily been a clone of him. I mean, Vivi's are a dime a dozen in FFIX.

[Godzilla3001]

Originally posted by PeTeRL90
What I'm still wondering.... is how Vivi got so many kids in such a short timespan.

Yeah, he's only 9 for christ sake! What was he thinking? but still...

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Of course the character who spent the whole game contemplating life and death died at the end. It wouldn't have been right if he hadn't.

[Clyde Arronway]

'Humanity' is the state of understading that which humans understand. Vivi becomes human. and you can't be sure that vivi dies, because that would be completely inverse of the relationship that zidane and Vivi made during IX. if square outrightly made him dead before zidane un-dies, IX would be camel spit in quality

[Godzilla3001]

Yeah everybody, first of all, Vivi doesn't die, does he? You can use him when you fight Necron! And also, will someone please tell me how to get other faces. I can only do :) and ;). HELP ME!

[Del Murder]

We're talking about him dying in the period between the final boss and the ending scene, which is likely a number of months.

The smilies are to the right of the reply box when you click 'Add Reply'. Can you not see them?

[Godzilla3001]

Yeah, I know all that murder, I mean getting the wierduns up. I used to know loads of them, but I've forgotten.


Oh, and the ending scene part, I'll have to watch it again...

[Del Murder]

Click on [more] under the smileys box.

[Shayo]

i always thought it was dagger (garnet) who said those things in the last scenes, what with the talk of him taking her to new places, and plus that fact that she loved him, and it was her scene that we saw last before the final movie i think.

oh and also, i dont think vivi died, i think he found a way to cheat death, kinda like he was a mistake and was cast aside, being expected not to work, but then some how fell into the ocean, and found his way to his grandpa.

[Master Quan]

I know so much as to say that all of the black mages where intended to live for a year so if Vivi is nine years old then he can't be regular and even when he did "stop" The Black mage village would undoubtably revive him since they said they were trying to restart the broken ones.

So in FFIX-2 Vivi will be alive and very definately human....in nature.

So whatever the hell you think of Vivi he IS coming back.

I'm sorry i seemed to have gone a bit obsessive there. But it just get me so angry that Zidane is a vessel and Vivi is effectively a vessel so why was it that Vivi died?! Why WHY!

[little devil]

he didnt die & iv finished it so i should no!!!!!!!! by the way zidane was the one who looked like he died when he got squished by those plant things at the lifa tree when he went back 4 kuja & how dare u call zidane a prat! hes my best character!!!!!!!!

[Master Quan]

Please open your eyes

Zidane is a fool, the only reason almost everyone ever has him in their parties is because you have to.

But I respect you opinion as a person.

Vivi - Unparralled Magic God

Zidane - Mumm mumble, mumble -cough; batty; cough-

[Shlup]

Whever didn't know he was going to die is... special.

[UltimateSpamGrover]

you are special...you're the one with barbie in their signature

[FleshMask]

ALL I WANT TO KNOW!!!

WHO IS VIVI'S BABIES MAMA????!!!

That's all I want to know...

Who was the lucky lady? Was is Zidane's Sister?
A Quan? I REALLY REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!!

This is Jerry Springer material!!!

[little devil]

he didnt die he just had lots of kids thats all!!

[UltimateSpamGrover]

Vivi's babies mother was obviously Quina..that or Amarant....

[Az Lionheart]

FFIX wa so easy and we all know that, and the zidane thing: good or not..well in my veiw he is a pratt and does not live up to your Squalls or Clouds! :p

[Vaprice]

I think it was a wookie who traveled time back to the age of Zidane *not the french soccer player* and she and Vivi got it on in the castle's library.

Just my thought. :D

[Sephiroth534]

Vivi didn't die at the end... everyone else looked the same at the end, so Vivi shouldn't have aged much. So he didn't probably. The quote "Everybody has to say goodbye" at the end was obviously coming from his mouth, because how could he talk if he's dead? And he was referring to Zidane when he said that because everyone thought Zidane died at the Iifa Tree.

[Polyonymous]

I dont belive Vivi dies, but whatever.

[Wilder]

Vivi really dies, that the first impression, Dont you remenber that all the little magic puppets like VIVI are created to have a short life, and vivi is making this travel with his friends thinkin "I´m like them , I´m gonna die ?", he dies, and the lot of little Vvivis is the Proff, like a simbolic memory of vivi there, remenber that between Zidane dissapear and comeback there were several years. we miss you little black mage.

[Fate Fatale]

Umm there is no proof that Vivi was made. *spoilers* Quan fished him out of the mist. Vivi was made from the love in Quans heart mixed in with the mist. that is why Vivi remembers nothing before he met Quan (even though Quan wanted to eat him). so he might be human created by magic, or even from a diffrent planet (like Zidane). So lets end this dicussion and listen to "1000 Words" from FFX-2.

[Aerio]

sorry since no ones posted in this for a bit, but I finished it again a few days ago and got the impression it was Mikoto speaking about her and the other vessel genomes. But there i s a lot of stuff the contradicts this. I don't want to believe vivi died but it would explain why his son gets touchy when Puck mentions the name. Also, I like to think its each character talking to but i was confused >_>.

[Carnage]

I never even thought vivi had a body. If he dosent have a body how did he have kids?

[Chris]

VIVI DIDN'T DIE !!!?

[Remnant]

Having just finished the game tonight, and having not read any such threads as these before hand, my unpolluted OPINION is that Vivi did, in fact, "stop".

I had the distinct impression that all of the text in that portion was all part of a single letter, especially given that the last panel of them ended as a letter does. The text of the letter lead me to believe that Vivi knew at some point that he would stop soon, and wrote that letter as his final thoughts.

I think this especially, as there is some reference earlier in the game that, when it is stated that the black mages will stop after year or two, the prototype, assumed to be Vivi, will last some undetermined amount of time longer.

Vivi is also the only member not clearly pictured in the end scene. The "sons of Vivi" all bustle right by Puck as well, having never met him before. Were Vivi in the group, he would not likely have passed his "first friend."

So, it was for me an ending tinged with sadness. I really liked Vivi. I was waiting right up until the end for some evidence that he wasn't under the same rules as the other black mages, but to no avail.

Of course, this was my impression and opinion.

[Penguin]

hahahaaa, he doesn't die

[Remnant]

hahahaaa, he doesn't die

Touche'.

I don't want him to die. Not at all. I would rather the game end with him alive. None the less, it was my impression that Vivi "stopped". On my next play through, I'll actively look for evidence to defeat my impression.

[icemagic]

where in ff9 does it say vivi dies, no where. any one care to explain where.

[Remnant]

It never explicitly states as much, any you are free to interpret the game as you will. But the argument, (which I personally believe) goes something like this:

We know that the Black Mages constructed by Kuja have a lifespan of a very few years at best. It is however indicated that the prototype will have a longer lifespan, but how long, it is not determined. (I can't remember the exact phrasing used, but I got the distinct impression this statement was made in regards to Vivi. This is supported by the fact that Vivi is already well in excess of the typical Black Mage lifespan.)

So, if we follow through with the premise that Vivi is the Black Mage prototype, then we know that he too will "stop" eventually. We do not know how long this will take, but we can guess (from the exact phrasing which I cannot remember :tongue: ) that it will not be any great number of years.

At the end of the game, there are scenes of each of the characters, interrupted by blocks of text which, taken together, and looking at the last one, present themselves as a single letter. The author of the letter, from the wording and style of it, seems to be Vivi. The letter is meloncholy, and almost seems to be saying goodbye.

In those last scenes, all members but Vivi are explicitly shown. "Vivi's" scene consists of a line of Black Mages that look exactly like him going to see the play. The first in line, which is holding the tickets, runs into Puck, who mistakenly thinks the Black Mage is Vivi. The Black Mage informs Puck that they are Vivi's children, and they parade by the prince.

Now, if Vivi were there, he would have stopped to speak with Puck. Vivi always wanted to talk to Puck during the game, and he wouldn't have passed up the chance to speak to him again after so long. Thus, it is unlikely that any of the Black Mages in that scene are in fact Vivi.

Also, if Vivi were still around during the final scene, he would have gotten the same kind of attention as the rest of the cast, all of whom are explicitly shown doing one thing or another.

So, Vivi having stopped is fairly strongly implied. It is the impression that I got the first time I saw the ending, before I looked at any threads such as this one- which for me is one of the key differences that separates this theory from others, such as R=U from FFVIII and the like. The implication here is substantially stronger, and the interpretation can be reached more reasonably than some of the wilder theories.

[Anaisa]

Vivi did not die. All that writing that comes up is about Zidane because they all think that he is dead. That is why he appears in that play in the hooded robe with his face concealed to surprise everyone when he takes it off that he is still alive.

[Lyndiny 1445 4eva]

ok dis sub is so bloody stupid hu eva fort dat vivi died is a complete idiot an should pay more attention when playin da bloody game, nice 1 m8 i bet u feel like a write prat LMAO!!! LOLOLOL!!!!!! :p

[Viper]

I don't like the ending 2

Square should just let Zidane dies

and Vivi live....................

[Itsunari 2000]

The truth is totally obscured from us .

[bakabakabaka]

........this is just what i think. i think that they all thought that zidane died saving kuja. the writing though is vivis last thoughts, thinking about his friends and zidane. i'v completed it twice and both times i thought that. thourghout the game vivi questioned his existence, his quote being "do we really exist?" to prove that we exist is to have a life and to die. dying is natural. so vivi dying answers his question - he did exist and was real.

one thing though...i heard that if you complete it 100% with all the sidequest you get an extra scene with vivi...i don't know what its about or if its true. i'm trying to complete it all now so i can see!!!

this is just my opinion.... he might not die but i think that it completes the game propally.

anyway the person who thinks zidane should die is a poopy head!!!
i love zidane my FAVOURITE character! :love: :love: :love:

[BudSoda02]

Armarant wasn't a female, he was a guy. Do you people consider him a girl because of his long hair? Note thathe had a beard & a relatively flat chest. You get the closest view of him during one of the Active time events in your return to Treno to get the Supersoft for Blank. He was talking to Freya about how he was a security guard for the auction/mansion site. By the way can anyone confirm it was Kuja who was the owner of the mansion? The game gave me several signs to yes, but I need confirmation.
Thanks- BudSoda02 BudSoda02@yahoo.com

[lordblazer]

sort of like cait sith??
except everyone actually liked him lol no one likes cait sith

[AhmedTheGreat]

Remnant, even though I'm totally convinced that he's not dead, What you said really really made sense and I really hope that this is true, so that I could go like "YO THUMBS UP SQUARE!" for making such a reasonable ending.

but I'm not sure, I still think he didn't, and they're not that clever to make such ending.

[Shoden]

Zidane and Kuja are technically brothers as they were the only genomes given souls except that female genome who was a slight dumbass in my words i think Vivi doesnt die but dissapears and is almost dead he is revived by the black mages and makes his way to home thats my thoughts but i never finished ff9 as i never found disc 4 i lost it ;-;

[Wilder]

when this kind of theory appears , also appears the kind of people that says "Vivi´s body was not there?, a lot of litle vivis and some melancolic lines don´t mean that vivis dead, he maybe is in hawai with the mother of his children taking a nap, because there´s no dialogue that say´s "vivi´s is dead", but... Zidane was dead at the end, and that guy that looks like him is shadow from VI , he is a secret character"... for god sake, it´s so obvious. How many of you think that (Excuse the change of topic) Frodo from The lord of the ring went in the little boat and live happy in a beach with the elders ?, It´s call "simbolic death", crossing a lake in a boat is just like vivi´s confussing clones . I think vivis death was the best thing about the ending (the kiss was a shame).

[MJN SEIFER]

except everyone actually liked him lol no one likes cait sith

He was my fave FFVIIer!

[sayen]

You people are nuts vivi did not die because when they beat necron and stopped the lifa tree from making mist the souls couldn’t pass on to terra because terra dident exsit anymore and zidane was only trapped in the lifa tree for 9 months my vivi got It off with zidanes sister. Anyway vivi was a faild prototype and had also descovrd the meaning of life. There are other powers in that world other than necron that might have changed vivi or he was never dsigned to stop or because he was so powerful his will stopped him from dieing like sephiroth when he was thone into the mako reactor by cloud. Also you might not of noticed that it takes diffent races diffent amount of time to reach the right stage.

[Master Quan]

To truly debate what happened to Vivi, I consider a few points

1- For something to die it must first be living, Yes?

2- For something to be living it must display 7 attributes

-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.
-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature
-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information
-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required
-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result
-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy
-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow

-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows

-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"

-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing

-Furthermore how do you define dieing?

-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!

[FiragaBreak]

You guys are so immature. It was just a boss battle like Beatrix when she did Climhazzard and killed the characters but she meerly wiped them out. They still lived after the battle but were very weak.

[Zerlina]

You guys are so immature. It was just a boss battle like Beatrix when she did Climhazzard and killed the characters but she meerly wiped them out. They still lived after the battle but were very weak.
...

[Squall of SeeD]

[Stuff]

...Jesus God.



-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.

A body is defined as follows: "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person." (http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/body)

The Black Mages had physical forms, despite having been manufactured out of condensed Spirit Energy that was unable to reach the core of Gaia. These forms could die, as we see many do during the game.



-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature

Uh... why? Fruit Flies live for about 13 days and generally reach sexual maturity by the end of the fifth. Mice generally reach sexual maturity within 35 days. How can you define the physiology of a being whose anatomy you know next to nothing about, nor even know requires sexual interaction in order to reproduce in the first place, as some organisms reproduce through fission ("splitting")? Even supposing it did, you're not accounting for the possibility of asexual reproduction such as budding (basically, growing a new organism off of one's own body).

In any event, the game tells us that Vivi has sons. While he may have simply compressed more Spirit Energy with the machines in Dali to make them and have sired them thus, again, we don't know enough about the Black Mages' physiology (mustless Vivi's, who was different from the other Black Mages to begin with) to make any kind of determination about him not being able to reproduce in some manner.

By the way -- and not that it's relevant, really -- Vivi was 9 years old.



-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information

The bodies of you or I could be defined as machines: Link to the definition of "machine." (http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/Machine) That definition uses metal objects to illustrate what a machine is. This does not mean that a machine is made of metal, rock, or some non-organic material. The organs that sustain our life are machines.

By the way, Homo Sapien bodies will also just respond to stimuli, even if the consciousness of the owner doesn't feel it. You can pinch the arm of a sleeping person and they may flinch or jerk the arm away. However, were they in one of the deeper stages of sleep in which they were not conscious, they wouldn't have felt it, despite their body reacting.

For that matter, it's never implied that Vivi's body is made of metal or rock. We only know that the stagnant Spirit Energy of Gaia was compressed to form Black Mages' bodies.



-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required

Again, our bodies are machines, yet we require nutrition. Also, yes, Vivi is shown eating during the game at the banquet in Lindblum after the Festival of the Hunt.



-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result

Again, our bodies are machines, yet we excrete waste by-products. Also, once again, Vivi is shown eating during the game.



-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy

Just refer to my previous points.



-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow

Again, he's already nine years old, not one. By the way, Homo Sapiens and many other organisms develop a lot in one year, though, again, we don't know the physiology of Black Mages. In any event, were there any growth, your point would be defeated. As for the machine matter, you already know what I would say in regard to that.



-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows

Mist is the stagnant souls/Spirit Energy of Gaia. It's the very energy of life to begin with.



-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"

"Stopping" is synonomous with "ceasing," "perishing," "dying," "and "expiring." By the way, the Black Mages were the ones to refer to dying as to "stop moving," yet even Black Mage No. 288 establishes that it's the same thing as dying:


Black Mage No. 288
"Hello. Nice to see you again."

Vivi
"Um... I wanted to ask you something."

Black Mage No. 288
"What is it?"

Vivi
"I was wondering how many people have...stopped...moving."

Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"



-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing

We would be insulting ourselves to conclude that we don't know what "stopping" entails.



-Furthermore how do you define dieing?

It's defined rather simply as "The act of expiring" or "The passing from life into death."



-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!

The matter was being examined in the context of the story, thus, such a point as this is outside the realm of that which was being debated.


In any event, to conclude that Vivi didn't die/stop moving/expire/cease to be/pass from life into death would be to ignore what the game heavily implies. It's already been established before the game's ending that the lifespan of the Black Mages is more limited than that of the other dominant races on Gaia (one of the only things about the Black Mages' anatomy that we are aware of), and we have him speaking during the game's ending before the Play, ending his dialogue with a farewell to everyone followed by "My memories will be part of the sky...." That more or less says "I'm dying. Farewell," would you not say?

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

[Gwelenguchenkus]

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

That's a really good point. I think it's pretty obvious that Vivi died.

Nice analysis by the way. There was something terribly terribly wrong with the last poster's logic.

[Squall of SeeD]

That's a really good point. I think it's pretty obvious that Vivi died.

Nice analysis by the way. There was something terribly terribly wrong with the last poster's logic.

Thanks for the compliment. ^^

[TurkSlayer]

That really was good, Squall of SeeD. Anyway, yes, its quite obvious that Vivi did in fact "stop". True, it was sad, however it was fitting, considering everything he went through through out the game. It gave him the true understanding of life and death.

[Big D]

Vivi's a manufactured construct, be he's also a living being. Just because someone is made doesn't mean they aren't alive, at least not in fantasy anyway. Just like Zidane, just like the Orcs of Tolkien's work, Vivi was created in order to serve some purpose - he was a 'prototype' for the mass-produced Black Mage soldiers seen elsewhere in the game. The mass-produced mages have an artificially restricted lifespan, dying a year after they gain consciousness. Vivi, being a different model, would likely be designed to expire at another time. Apparently, about 10 years.

Vivi's a living, breathing, eating, sleeping, dreaming, fully self-aware biological being. He's in no way a robot, mannequin or synthetic automaton. He was made from the 'stuff of life', Mist, which is essentially 'spirit energy', much like the Lifestream in FFVII or Pyreflies in FFX.

As for Vivi reproducing... he clearly found a way, although we may never know how. He wanted to live on in some way, even knowing he was mortal. Maybe there are female Black Mages? It doesn't make sense, since Kuja only wanted to use them as weapons... however, they exceeded their genetic "programming" by establishing a community and a peaceful social structure. Clearly, they aren't completely constrained by their "schematics". It's possible they reproduced asexually somehow (I know Vivi's male, but that's not the point here), perhaps by laying eggs which would hatch into 'clones' of themselves, or perhaps they spore somehow.

I guess all I wanted to say is that

(1) Vivi is a living being, not a machine

(2) "Life finds a way".

[Master Quan]

[Stuff]


...Jesus God.

Not quite sure I said that.



-It must move, yes Vivi does move, but we must consider that since he was made, i.e. a Puppet he isn't moving a body.


...A body is defined as follows: "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person." (http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/body)

The Black Mages had physical forms, despite having been manufactured out of condensed Spirit Energy that was unable to reach the core of Gaia. These forms could die, as we see many do during the game.

Your own quotation is against you there, you said "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person"

Surely "Mist" is not animal matter. Even if a condensed form of it, wouldn't take form of cell with any sort of function, let alone an entire bodily system. Because simply if you compress or condense energy (e.g. "life energy") it is fairly obvious you aren't going to get cell tissue forming


-It must be able to reproduce, i'm not to sure how somethings that dies after, is it a year?, is supposed to sexually mature


...Uh... why? Fruit Flies live for about 13 days and generally reach sexual maturity by the end of the fifth. Mice generally reach sexual maturity within 35 days. How can you define the physiology of a being whose anatomy you know next to nothing about, nor even know requires sexual interaction in order to reproduce in the first place, as some organisms reproduce through fission ("splitting")? Even supposing it did, you're not accounting for the possibility of asexual reproduction such as budding (basically, growing a new organism off of one's own body).

In any event, the game tells us that Vivi has sons. While he may have simply compressed more Spirit Energy with the machines in Dali to make them and have sired them thus, again, we don't know enough about the Black Mages' physiology (mustless Vivi's, who was different from the other Black Mages to begin with) to make any kind of determination about him not being able to reproduce in some manner.

By the way -- and not that it's relevant, really -- Vivi was 9 years old.

Yes fruit flies do sexually mature very fast, but that is a far less complicated animal with a substantialy smaller body mass, for that to happen to a creature of, even dog size, the change would require too much energy to be performed in that time, thus killing the animal (see some weed killers they force the same thing upon plants)

also if Vivi is said to have sons, considering he was made, they could have been talking in a different context, i.e. Several clones of the same thing are said to be "Brothers" despite not being born from the same mother or any mother for that matter.

Further more, Vivi is said to be a Black mage, and intented only to live for only one year (like the others) if he is in fact nine as you say (which i doubt) Then It can safely be assumed that he was not made in the same way as the others, i.e. not out of mist, and so not having the (life emulating) properties of mist, and so never live and so never die


-It must be sensitive to external stimulus, true yes he does do that, but as we've ascertained Vivi is (essentially) a machine a so reacting to information


...The bodies of you or I could be defined as machines: Link to the definition of "machine." (http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/Machine) That definition uses metal objects to illustrate what a machine is. This does not mean that a machine is made of metal, rock, or some non-organic material. The organs that sustain our life are machines.

By the way, Homo Sapien bodies will also just respond to stimuli, even if the consciousness of the owner doesn't feel it. You can pinch the arm of a sleeping person and they may flinch or jerk the arm away. However, were they in one of the deeper stages of sleep in which they were not conscious, they wouldn't have felt it, despite their body reacting.

For that matter, it's never implied that Vivi's body is made of metal or rock. We only know that the stagnant Spirit Energy of Gaia was compressed to form Black Mages' bodies.

The conscious knowledge of stimulus is not fixed with detection of stimulus by the body.

The game never suggests that Vivi isn't made from Metal/Rock/Plastics
(To be pathetic)

Yes true, you could define the human organs as machines, a definition of a machine can be "something that convery one form of energy to another" in that case almost everything is a machine. But to get to the point my definition of Machine is quite apparant, I mean a system intended with beneficial function or reproduction of a function for a purpose usually of man made materials.


-It must require and use nutrition, I don't remember if he actually eats, also if he is a machine no such nutrition is required


...Again, our bodies are machines, yet we require nutrition. Also, yes, Vivi is shown eating during the game at the banquet in Lindblum after the Festival of the Hunt.

O.k. maybe Vivi does eat in the game, but this is not always associated with Respiration, nor, does it suggest his need for nutrition. If Vivi is a machine (the definition I use) then he does not require nutrition as nutrition is a vehicle for a reaction involving respiration, he may indeed require a power source of some kind.


-It must produce extretative products, i.e. get rid of waste product, If vivi is a machine, having a /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif would have no plausible benefit, also if he has no need to eat he will have no waste products as a result


...Again, our bodies are machines, yet we excrete waste by-products. Also, once again, Vivi is shown eating during the game.

I've explained this.



-It must respire, he is machine, ergo he does not eat, ergo he can't convert it into energy


...Just refer to my previous points.

Yeah, refer to my counter points also


-It must grow, since Vivi "stops" after a year, little growth, if any will result, also if he is a machine then he cannot grow


...Again, he's already nine years old, not one. By the way, Homo Sapiens and many other organisms develop a lot in one year, though, again, we don't know the physiology of Black Mages. In any event, were there any growth, your point would be defeated. As for the machine matter, you already know what I would say in regard to that.

Oh perhaps yes were there any growth, yes it would defeat the point. But since I have debated he is a machine, It seems foolish to continue wasting time with this.



-But then again if he is a product of mist, a chemical unbeknowest to man, and its beneficial effects are unknown, who knows maybe its like that gunk with the alien inside that actually grows


...Mist is the stagnant souls/Spirit Energy of Gaia. It's the very energy of life to begin with.

I have addressed this



-So If he isn't living, he cannot die. Point in case he is said to "stop"


..."Stopping" is synonomous with "ceasing," "perishing," "dying," "and "expiring." By the way, the Black Mages were the ones to refer to dying as to "stop moving," yet even Black Mage No. 288 establishes that it's the same thing as dying:.


Black Mage No. 288
"Hello. Nice to see you again."

Vivi
"Um... I wanted to ask you something."

Black Mage No. 288
"What is it?"

Vivi
"I was wondering how many people have...stopped...moving."

Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"

refering as fact about Being sometimes related to something, I like taking a metaphor as literal fact. Quite simply stopping, isn't dieing because the two words aren't the same, they just aren't and since he is a machine he cannot die, he can only stop.


-We haven't enough knowledge to define "stopping" perhaps this is the point at which change in the subsystems halts, then this is not dieing


...We would be insulting ourselves to conclude that we don't know what "stopping" entails..

To halt, i.e. to cease movement in a particular direction
To desist, i.e. to "stop" making poor counter arguments



-Furthermore how do you define dieing?


...It's defined rather simply as "The act of expiring" or "The passing from life into death.".

I was speaking just of arguing against the claim he wont come back, to die, they are devoid of life, and so give them back life they aren't



-Finally since Vivi is indeed a videogame character (and at the disposal of Square to be plucked for sequels, explained at their discretion, -FFIX was a dreeeeeam!!!!) he never existed except in a different context, he couldn't possibly have lived, and so not died!!!


...The matter was being examined in the context of the story, thus, such a point as this is outside the realm of that which was being debated..

A yes but, at this point I was bored of arguing and to not take this a joke, is quite silly



...In any event, to conclude that Vivi didn't die/stop moving/expire/cease to be/pass from life into death would be to ignore what the game heavily implies. It's already been established before the game's ending that the lifespan of the Black Mages is more limited than that of the other dominant races on Gaia (one of the only things about the Black Mages' anatomy that we are aware of), and we have him speaking during the game's ending before the Play, ending his dialogue with a farewell to everyone followed by "My memories will be part of the sky...." That more or less says "I'm dying. Farewell," would you not say?

Added to this is the fact that he isn't even present during the ending. His sons are, but not him. Had he been present, it's safe to assume he would have been pointed out.

This argument is now an argument of opinion and will never be decided, it is over, respond if you must but i have stopped

[Odaisé Gaelach]

My opinion is that you all have read way too deep into this thing. For goodness' sake it's a character from a computer game!!!!

[Shoden]

that made no sense

an Animal is made of Celluar membrane structure DNA etc but they arent the animal it is what makes the animal Homo Homo sapiens are defined as animals Mist is like the DNA and the other stuff that makes Vivi of course mist is not an animal but it makes an animal

i feel stupid for siding though but that point there was wrong Squall will do the rest

[Squall of SeeD]

Not quite sure I said that.

The "[Stuff]" thing? Take note of the brackets and what it means to use them within a quote, please. I wasn't saying that you had said that.



Your own quotation is against you there, you said "The material organized substance of an animal, whether living or dead, as distinguished from the spirit, or vital principle; the physical person"

In your attempt to discredit this point, you've essentially defeated your own once again, basically because the argument you're making here would discredit Homo Sapiens as having bodies, as you're emphasising only animals as having bodies. Either you don't believe that Zidane, Dagger, and Steiner were alive, as well, or you're just grasping at straws. Though perhaps you really do consider Homo Sapiens animals, as well, as the scientific community actually does, though the wording of your Post would suggest you've chosen to ignore this fact. By what standard are you defining "animal"?



Surely "Mist" is not animal matter. Even if a condensed form of it, wouldn't take form of cell with any sort of function, let alone an entire bodily system. Because simply if you compress or condense energy (e.g. "life energy") it is fairly obvious you aren't going to get cell tissue forming

And you would know this how? You're arguing a point in regard to laws of a type of physics we aren't even fully made aware of. For that matter, the Black Mages emerge with clothing. Granted, the material of which their outfits are composed may be formed of artificial fibres such as polyester or rayon rather than natural fibres such as cotton or silk, but they're still emerging with clothing. I could as easily turn what you said around and say "It's fairly obvious you aren't going to get that kind of material forming when Spirit Energy compresses," yet it happened, organic material or not. We don't know the physics of all of that, and to try to argue what Spirit Energy is or isn't going to do when applied in a manner that we've only ever seen it applied to once is utterly illogical and unfounded.

It's one thing to argue that when Spirit Energy condenses we can get a Sphere that will allow one to access Magicks. We have both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X/X-2 to support that notion. With what we see occur in Final Fantasy IX, we have nothing similar to compare it to. In any event, once again, they emerge with clothing. Without an in-game -- or in-series -- supported explanation for how Spirit Energy has been compressed and formed fibres (natural or artifical) in addition to the bodies of the Black Mages, you have no basis by which to argue what the compression will or will not do when forming bodies.

For that matter, we don't even know if Kuja applied any organic materials to the compression process or not. Again, you have no basis by which to argue the point you made.



Yes fruit flies do sexually mature very fast, but that is a far less complicated animal with a substantialy smaller body mass, for that to happen to a creature of, even dog size, the change would require too much energy to be performed in that time, thus killing the animal (see some weed killers they force the same thing upon plants)

Again, you know no more of Black Mage anatomy than what the game shows or tells us. Your attempt to argue this as though it was a direct correlation fails as a result.



Further more, Vivi is said to be a Black mage, and intented only to live for only one year (like the others) if he is in fact nine as you say (which i doubt) Then It can safely be assumed that he was not made in the same way as the others, i.e. not out of mist, and so not having the (life emulating) properties of mist, and so never live and so never die

Um... no, it's not safe to assume that he wasn't made out of Mist. The game never suggests otherwise. It's said he was a prototype for the Black Mage line. That would imply that he was made from Mist. Generally if you're making a prototype of something, you're going to be using the same materials in the future.

And, yes, he is nine years old. All official material released concerning the age of the characters state that as being the case. Google it if you're suspicious. Everything you'll find concerning his age will state that as the case. Magazines released in the time leading up to the release of the game stated that he's 9, the same as that Zidane and Dagger are 16 and Steiner's 33. For whatever reason, it wasn't placed in the Instruction Booklet, but it is the case.

Edit: Even better; here's a link to the official English site: Linkage (http://na.square-enix.com/games/FFIX-gamesite/). Go to "Characters" and then to Vivi's section. It's stated clearly there that he is nine years old.



The conscious knowledge of stimulus is not fixed with detection of stimulus by the body.

Where's your evidence that the Black Mages' bodies did not respond to any stimulus? We know that they had emotional feelings, and while it's not said that they do have physical feelings, it's safe to assume that they do. After Zidane, Vivi, Freya, and Quina get pounded by Beatrix in Burmecia, Vivi's laying on the floor beaten with the others. I'd say that's a bodily response to stimulus. When Dagger puts sleeping weed in everyone but Steiner's food in Lindblum, Vivi showed a stimulus reaction then, as well. He said that he was feeling sleepy, and a moment later, he passed out with Zidane, Cid, and Freya.

So far all I'm seeing are in-game points that refute your argument.



The game never suggests that Vivi isn't made from Metal/Rock/Plastics
(To be pathetic)

And it never suggests that Zidane's body -- constructed by Garland, not born -- wasn't made from solidified vegetable oil, but just because it doesn't, this lack of negative evidence doesn't mean that which wasn't opposed is thereby automatically inferred.



Yes true, you could define the human organs as machines, a definition of a machine can be "something that convery one form of energy to another" in that case almost everything is a machine. But to get to the point my definition of Machine is quite apparant, I mean a system intended with beneficial function or reproduction of a function for a purpose usually of man made materials.

If we all went about re-defining words to suit our purposes, no one would ever lose a debate.

Anyway, Vivi's not composed of man-made materials. We know this because we're told that the Black Mages are composed of Mist and we're told that Mist is the stagnant souls of Gaia.

To argue otherwise is contradicted by the game.



O.k. maybe Vivi does eat in the game, but this is not always associated with Respiration, nor, does it suggest his need for nutrition. If Vivi is a machine (the definition I use) then he does not require nutrition as nutrition is a vehicle for a reaction involving respiration, he may indeed require a power source of some kind.

You have no basis by which to argue that he doesn't require nutrition, however. The fact that we see him eating would suggest that he does.

By the way, I forgot to mention this in the last Post to you, but Vivi does produce waste by-product. He and Zidane take a piss in Madain Sari:


Vivi
"I want to stop... I don't wanna feel like this anymore."
"What if I keep feeling like this?"

Zidane
"Vivi..."
"Well... In the end, it boils down to two simple choices."
"Either you do or you don't."
"You'd think with all the problems in this world, there'd be more answers."
"It's not fair..."
"...but that's the way things are."
"The choice is yours."

Vivi
"Zidane..."

Zidane
"I just wanna protect the people I'm with."
"Doesn't matter whether I can or not. It's what I believe in."

[Eiko is eavesdropping on the conversation from the kitchen. The screen transitions to the left so that only the dialogue boxes of Zidane and Vivi can be seen, but not them.]

Eiko
"I knew it! I was right!"
"Zidane is the man for me!"
"He's right. You either do, or you don't."
"My choice is clear! I wanna go with Zidane!"

Zidane
"You wanna know a trick to get your mind off things?"

Eiko
"Okay."

Zidane
"This is an age-old ritual between male friends!"

Eiko
"Uh-huh."

Zidane
"Come over here, Vivi. Let's go together."
"Doesn't it feel nice to let yourself go under the stars?"

Eiko
"......"

::Tinkle::

::Tinkle tinkle::

[Eiko rises, shakes her head, and runs out of the kitchen]

::Tinkle tinkle tinkle tinkle::

::Tinkle tinkle::



Oh perhaps yes were there any growth, yes it would defeat the point. But since I have debated he is a machine, It seems foolish to continue wasting time with this.

You mean putting forth a point that you've failed to support? Yeah, I'd say you doing that is a waste of everyone's time.



refering as fact about Being sometimes related to something, I like taking a metaphor as literal fact. Quite simply stopping, isn't dieing because the two words aren't the same, they just aren't and since he is a machine he cannot die, he can only stop.

Again, the smartest Black Mage in the Village refers to "stopping" and "dying" as being the same thing. Metaphors, by the way, are not intended to be taken literally. They are, by definition, something that illustrates something else, such as "One rotten apple spoils the whole barrel." When someone says this when the discussion isn't about apples, they're not talking about apples.

A metaphor is defined as follows: "The transference of the relation between one set of objects to another set for the purpose of brief explanation; a compressed simile; e. g., the ship plows the sea." (http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/Metaphor)

Or are you going to argue that the universally-accepted definition of "metaphor" doesn't fit your definition, and is, thus, false?



To halt, i.e. to cease movement in a particular direction
To desist, i.e. to "stop" making poor counter arguments

Yes, you should stop making poor counter arguments. I find your current line of argument insulting as it's riddled with logical fallacies.

And, again, metaphors illustrate something else. Hell, again, Black Mage No. 288 refers to "stop moving" as the Black Mages' term for dying:


Black Mage No. 288
"You're very kind to use our words."
"But you already know what it means to live...and to die."
"You're asking about our friends who have 'died,' not 'stopped.'"

Argue with the writer of the story on that one.



This argument is now an argument of opinion and will never be decided, it is over, respond if you must but i have stopped

That point you're referring to wasn't posed to you to begin with, but was a general statement to anyone reading the Post, but seeing as how you took the time to respond to it, I'll respond back.

The point that you're arguing is based solely on opinion is based on two things:

1) Logic

&

2) Storywriting. Either you're just, again, grasping at straws, or you have no confidence whatsoever in the scenario writer's capacity to know what the hell they were doing, so you're assuming they just had the foreshadowing to Vivi's death followed by him saying "Farewell. My memories will be part of the sky..." and a complete absence of him afterward for no reason whatsoever. Well, isn't that storytelling at its best.

Honestly, Quan, that would be smurfing awful storytelling. It would make no sense. When someone writes something, generally they're doing so with a certain intent in mind and they use the story itself to convey that intent.


Just so you know, I take it as an insult for you to pull this "I'm going to counter logic, reason, and in-game facts with my personally manufactured definitions that serve my own purpose, while I ignore anything that would possibly contradict my argument, even if it is directly from the game, while I also take things at literal value that aren't even defined as being applied in such a manner, then I'm going to turn my tail and flee" act. That's not how one carries a debate. Debates are where arguments are presented to the effect of convincing one with an opposing viewpoint to accept another viewpoint. An argument must be based on logic and have support. You've offered no support for your argument. Further, you've employed the fallacies of using negative evidence as support for something with no support, as well as refusing to acknowledge a universally-accepted definition simply because it would contradict your argument. Again, this is not how one carries a debate.

Good day.

[Shoden]

well done Squall (even though i didnt like FF9 as much as others it was still good) hopefully he'll see the light (man i sound like an idiot from church or ive seen to many movies)
did you read my point above about Quans point about the mist and animal thing

[Squall of SeeD]

well done Squall (even though i didnt like FF9 as much as others it was still good) hopefully he'll see the light (man i sound like an idiot from church or ive seen to many movies)
did you read my point above about Quans point about the mist and animal thing

Yes, I did. I forgot to comment on it, though. You're correct, Homo Sapiens are also defined as animals. As for whether Spirit Energy could manifest into DNA-laden cellular membranes, your guess is as good as mine.

When we consider Final Fantasy X and X-2, the Pyreflies/Spirit Energy of the dead can manifest as Fiends, yet we don't know whether or not Fiends actually would have any cellular material. I personally don't believe they would, nor do I believe an Unsent's form would, as forms composed of Pyreflies can alter at a moment's notice (such as Seymour's form does on more than one occasion), but your point that Spirit Energy could basically take on any such animal form still stands.

[Camanche]

Just something I'd like to mention, that no one else seems to have.

The letter is written in first person, correct? (Using the word "I", etc.)

In the Japanese version of the game, the "I" that is used is one that is specifically and only used by young boys. Vivi is the only young boy that has enough relevance to the story and the letters contents to be the writer. And as mention at the beginning of this thread, it was officially stated by Square as well. I don't see why it is so hard to understand that Vivi did indeed 'stop'. The letter was meant to be a sad and poetic way of telling us that. Does everyone really need him to say, "Good God, I'm going to croak soon!" in order to believe this?

As for his 'kids', I always thought that maybe some Mist that was stagnating in the more enclosed areas of the world could have been used to make more Vivi's. I not 100% sure, but I don't think Black Mages were made with the ability to sexually reproduce. I think they had to be made with one of the Mist machines, which I think Vivi used to make his mini-mes. But this part is only my take on it.

[nirojan]

:shoot:WOW i never knew how much people like Vivi!:shoot:

:shoot:Im kinda sad now that she's DEAD!!!!!:shoot:

:shoot::shoot::shoot:
:shoot::shoot::shoot:

[Camanche]

She? Are you kidding?

Those damn smilies again... :twak: Bad nirojan! :D

[TurkSlayer]

:shoot:WOW i never knew how much people like Vivi!:shoot:

:shoot:Im kinda sad now that she's DEAD!!!!!:shoot:

:shoot::shoot::shoot:
:shoot::shoot::shoot:


Umm, dude, Vivi was a guy. Just wanted to mention that. And Camanche is right, it is quite obvious that Vivi is in fact dead. They might as well have shown you Vivi's dead body.

[Monol]

*takes a deep breath* first off...i liked cait sith..and second of all...*tear jerker* vivi is my favorite ff character and i would just like to say Squall of Seed...Master Quan...i salute thee...one of the reasons i admired vivi the most as a charcter..is you could do so much with his personality...this entire thread shows that....im a firm beleiver that vivi is alive but i understand everyones views on how he may have "stopped" but i really really liked vivi...with my stubborn view im sticking with that vivi's alive...in all of us ;) *corny wink* and in that his spirit lives on in all true FF gamers!!! so in spirit...he can never die...and as for physicly...well unless i get 110% proof that he "stopped" then i will continue to believe that that little mage is still out there...waving to zidane and garnet...*raises fist while holding a tissue* thank you...*bows , trips, and tumbles away* :cool:

[TurkSlayer]

*takes a deep breath* first off...i liked cait sith..and second of all...*tear jerker* vivi is my favorite ff character and i would just like to say Squall of Seed...Master Quan...i salute thee...one of the reasons i admired vivi the most as a charcter..is you could do so much with his personality...this entire thread shows that....im a firm beleiver that vivi is alive but i understand everyones views on how he may have "stopped" but i really really liked vivi...with my stubborn view im sticking with that vivi's alive...in all of us ;) *corny wink* and in that his spirit lives on in all true FF gamers!!! so in spirit...he can never die...and as for physicly...well unless i get 110% proof that he "stopped" then i will continue to believe that that little mage is still out there...waving to zidane and garnet...*raises fist while holding a tissue* thank you...*bows , trips, and tumbles away* :cool:


*pats Monol on the back* Its okay Monol. Its *sniff* gonna be okay... *sniff sniff* You got another tissue?

And Cait Sith rules... *sniff*

[Camanche]

So you do or don't think he's dead? :eyebrow:

People, Vivi was a sweet little black mage, but he's not 'working' anymore. He goes kaput at the end of the game. How many different ways are there to phase this?

Vivi est mort! I'm not too good with other languages. Anyone else want to add?

[TurkSlayer]

Were you refering to me or Monol? If it was to me, yes, I believe he's dead, I'm just a little upset about it.

[Camanche]

No, Monol. Sorry, you got your post in there before me. :p

[TurkSlayer]

Oh, okay.

[Gwelenguchenkus]

It really amazes me that people can be so stubborn to very clear evidence against their arguement. It's truly a pitiful thing. Sometimes it's best to admit defeat. If all of mankind was so stubborn, we'd all live in eternal warfare.

[Camanche]

*blinks* Um, we aren't?

Has mankind, as a whole, ever had a period of relative peace? (I'm asking this because I'm not too great with history.) There's usually always some kind of war, or rebellion, or uprising going on somewhere in the world. :D

[Gwelenguchenkus]

*blinks* Um, we aren't?

Has mankind, as a whole, ever had a period of relative peace? (I'm asking this because I'm not too great with history.) There's usually always some kind of war, or rebellion, or uprising going on somewhere in the world. :D

Well.. that's not exactly the scale I meant and yes.. you're right. but what I meant (and didn't really specify) is that we would ALL be in eternal warfare, even amongst us as people. Everyone would KNOW they were right and that their cause was right. Of course we're all a little stubborn. I see this attitude all the time and it's a little disturbing.

I think I've looked a little too deep into this though.

[Camanche]

No, I get what you mean now. Maybe you overexaggerated just a little though. ;)

[Gwelenguchenkus]

Maybe you overexaggerated just a little though. ;)

Hmm... You're probably right.

[Monol]

Dude i always have tissues for a fellow FF fan ;) but anyways...DUH im stubborn! But i belive there are diffrent kinds of stubborn...there are those who are PURE stubborn as i like to call it...are pepole that wont admit or respect anyone elses opinon but there own regardless of evidential proof...then theres folks like me :D ...who chose to be stubborn yet RESPECT other pepoles opinions and take them into consideration...regardless if there is no diffrence or not in your opinion ( i suck at wording things) im just trying to imply that im only being stubborn for the sake of my love towards vivi! not for the sake of the argument itself (such as being right or wrong) and for the record..there i just as much evidence supporting he lives too...it was never officialy announced if he died or not... so dont go thinking your opinions better than anyone elses :cool: *hands a tissue to TurkSlayer* glad to see a fellow cait sith lover..thing guy.. :D

[Squall of SeeD]

and for the record..there i just as much evidence supporting he lives too...it was never officialy announced if he died or not...

What evidence would that be, if I may ask?

[TurkSlayer]

The only evidence is... I can't think of any. Thanks for the tissue, though. And Cait Sith rulz.

[Squall of SeeD]

The only evidence is... I can't think of any.

Nor can I, especially with foreshadowing in the game and Vivi's own words strongly inferring it to be the case. And that's before one even takes into account that he never shows up during the ending.

Really, I don't see why an official announcement would be necessary to convey that he's dead. As I said earlier in this Thread, writers tend to use the story itself to convey their intent for a story.

However, I am willing to listen to a view that holds that he is alive, so please do explain Monol.

[Monol]

Really, I don't see why an official announcement would be necessary to convey that he's dead. As I said earlier in this Thread, writers tend to use the story itself to convey their intent for a story.

Well said :) and i shall use the same evidence but first just let me say...between Aeris's death and vivi's there is quite a diffrence..now i realize i may seem to be straying off track but work with me here...when aeirs died...she died..we all knew it....you cant deny it..cause not only was it right there in front of your face but it also protained to the story...vivi's death...is a bit of a diffrent story...now as you stated quite wisely that we may not have seen his so called "demise" or "stopping" but we can use evidential proof from the game itself correct? Now with that i believe that it cant be stated full heartly regardless of this notion....vivi contemplated his death...sorrow..throughout the entire game...as stated through out this entire thread...we all know this... :rolleyes2 now from this we can assume one of two things at the end of the game...that one through his journy with his friends and zidane vivi was able to conquer death even though it was his destiny from the begining...his ability to be diffrent from the other black mages allowed him to gain the strength to live...OR...we can say that because of his sorrow and his journy with his friends..he was able to accept his fate and gain the courage to face the one thing he ultimatly feared....now this may not be REASONABLE evidence...but it works for me :cool: (as i said i am a vivi fan) so..take this as you will and your welcome for the tissue

[Camanche]

Well, it's certainly nice to see your attitude towards your own opinion.
Ahhh... refreshing. ;)

As for me thinking my opinion is better... Well.. what I stated wasn't really an opinion. I think it would be nice if Vivi hadn't stopped, but I was just stating the fact that the game implied that he stopped, and quite clearly. As for an official statement.. well If you really want one, I heard that Square definately gave one, and will try to find it.

If you want to believe otherwise that is fine. Excellent. But I do have one question.

What do you think Vivi meant by that letter than? (And yes, Vivi DID write the letter in case you weren't sure, there is proof.)

[Squall of SeeD]

between Aeris's death and vivi's there is quite a diffrence

In terms of storytelling, I don't see much of a difference. Through a sword passing through her back and out her stomach, and then her lifeless body descending into a lake, the writers of VII showed us that Aerith is dead. Through us being flat-out told that the lifespan of the Black Mages was less than that of the rest of Gaia's dominant races, we know that they were all going to live short lives. Kuja said that the prototype (Vivi) would live longer, but he had already outlived the life expectancy of the rest of them by almost 9 years. Add to this the fact that Vivi's own words are a farewell to everyone followed by a line that beyond question shows that he was expecting his death, and we have a scenario that is hinting at it very strongly.

Follow that up with a scene in which he is absent whereas everyone else isn't, and we have confirmation of his death as much as is valued in storytelling as we did with seeing Aerith skewered and die in front of us.



Now with that i believe that it cant be stated full heartly regardless of this notion....vivi contemplated his death...sorrow..throughout the entire game...as stated through out this entire thread...we all know this... :rolleyes2 now from this we can assume one of two things at the end of the game...that one through his journy with his friends and zidane vivi was able to conquer death even though it was his destiny from the begining...his ability to be diffrent from the other black mages allowed him to gain the strength to live

Before I address the rest of this, I want to refer to your question:


now as you stated quite wisely that we may not have seen his so called "demise" or "stopping" but we can use evidential proof from the game itself correct?

Yes, evidence from the game would be what one would have to use. But in this case, there's not any evidence for the notion that Vivi could have found some strength to overcome his death. We're told that the Black Mages would have a shorter lifespan and this is never contradicted by anyone. Further, Vivi himself writes a letter of farewell to everyone before the reunion in which he openly accepts his death. The game doesn't show or imply that Vivi found some means or strength to overcome the physical act of dying, but, rather, found the strength to face his fears, enjoy the life that had been given to him, and accept it:

(Vivi's own words.)

"I always talked about you, Zidane. How you were a very special person to us, because you taught us all how important life is."
"You taught me that life doesn't last forever. That's why we have to help each other and live life to the fullest."
"Even if you say goodbye, you'll always be in our hearts. So, I know we're not alone anymore."
"Why I was born... How I wanted to live... Thanks for giving me time to think."
"To keep doing what you set your heart on... It's a very hard thing to do. We were all so courageous..."
"What to do when I felt lonely... That was the only thing you couldn't teach me. But we need to figure out the answer for ourselves..."
"I'm so happy I met everyone... I wish we could've gone on more adventures.
But I guess we all have to say goodbye someday."
"Everyone... Thank you. Farewell."
"My memories will be part of the sky..."


I'm a big fan of Vivi, as well. I adore the character. Yet, even so, I find that one would have to twist or ignore what is there and apply wishful thinking in regard to things that aren't to conclude that Vivi may have still been alive by the time of Zidane's return. He very plainly wasn't even there. Again, I'm a big fan of Vivi, yet there's no counter evidence for the evidence of his death. It's just the way the story was written and there's no way around that.


Thank you for your politeness in regard to the discussion, by the way. It's good to see.

[Monol]

Well, it's certainly nice to see your attitude towards your own opinion.
Ahhh... refreshing.


Is that sarcasim? :greenie:


And anyways...WOW i had no idea about this letter! I must have completely forgotten it...Well as i said i wont argue with whats right there....im used to my favorite characters dieing...but this time it was diffrent...i felt truly attached to vivi...but this letter makes the ending to be MUCH MUCH better! I know appreciate the game much more now....dont get me wrong...ill still be stubborn as ever towards my main man vivi ;) ....but i will gladly allow pepole to claim that he died....it works either way :D thank you for a worthy (if you would call it that ) argument and my hats off to you both...(cant believe being the fan i am i missed that letter! :p :eek: jeez o man...)

Oh and thanks for the whole "politness" compliment... ;)

[Camanche]

No, I wasn't being sarcastic about my comment. I was being dead serious. :p

As for the letter: the reason I am asking what you think of it is because the contents of the letter help PROVE Vivi's death. That's why I want to know what you interpret it as, if you believe Vivi is still alive, while the letter helps to prove otherwise.

[Monol]

Oh ok...just makin sure :p ;)

Now then...my response to the letter? Well it does seem pretty clear that vivi is gone...however being the fan that i am and having read this letter..i have came to a new conclusion ;)

It states "My memories will be part of the sky"...now when vivi "stopped"...he left somthing that no other black mage could not...because of his journy and as i stated earlier his bearings with his friends vivi was capable of learing the ultimate leason of life and death...because of his phenominal and absolute power however a divine spirit was forged through his death...and from this created what i will call "AVM" (awsome, viv, mist? ok ill work on the name :rolleyes2 ) and from his very spirit and his perspective upon life...he gave life to others (the vivi's you see at the end of the game) for within each of them...is a little bit of vivi...his spirit...lives on...so that others may enjoy life...as he tried to do...his sacrifice...for his friends...and others...was not in vain...so in this conclusion i can say that vivi is still alive and gone :cool:

*raises fist* go vivi..*tear* you the man...you always..and forever will be..in life and death...my favorite ff character... :D :cool:

[Squall of SeeD]

Well, in that sense, everyone lives on in someway. When someone dies in the worlds of (at least) Final Fantasy VII, IX, and The Spirits Within, their Spirit Energy just returns to the Lifestream/Gaia/"light" and gets used again eventually in a new life form. In addition to their Spirit Energy going back, their memories go with it and become part of the swell of souls within the Planet, allowing it to live on and grow.

Granted, this is a bit more unique a situation, in which you're suggesting that upon his death, his Spirit Energy dispersed and coalesced into these other Vivis. It's one of the possibilities for the origin of his sons, definitely, and probably the most likely one. For that matter, FFVII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, and The Spirits Within show that memories themselves have power, so with what great lessons that Vivi's learned in his short life, he would supply a lot of growing potential to the "light" or Spirit Energy in general.

By the way, "Vivi" is Latin for "Alive," and with these other things in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised if new life came as a result of his passing in the manner you speak. Also, Vivi's sons having his memories would explain why one of the Vivis knew that Puck was the Prince of Burmecia.

[Monol]

"Life" huh? thats pretty kewl...so you dig my theory then?

Well thats my view on all this...appreciate the info fella's...i now love vivi even more :D :cool: thanks for posting that letter...is that what all those little ending things are then? that makes sense then :rolleyes2

horray for little vivi! things...! :D

[Squall of SeeD]

"Life" huh? thats pretty kewl...so you dig my theory then?

In a word, "yes."

In fact, I've now compiled a new entry for my Final Fantasy IX Plot Analysis document in the Final Fantasy IX section of GameFAQs. I had always considered the possibility of the "Vivi Juniors" being formed from Vivi's Spirit Energy after his death to be the most likely origin, but until last night, an idea for what could have engineered this didn't strike me.

But it has now, and here's what I've determined:

(Note that Spoilers from Final Fantasy VII, VIII, IX, X, and The Spirits within will be present in this document.)
________________________________________________________

One of the most enduring questions of Final Fantasy IX is "Where did Vivi's sons come from?" Speculation has run anywhere from "Vivi died and they formed from his spiritual energy as it dispersed" to "Vivi used the machines in Dali to create more Black Mages like himself [before his death]" to "They're Vivi and Quina's children" to even "They're Vivi and Eiko's children." In all honesty, it's not simple to make an easy determination simply because there's so little explicit evidence offered by the game with which to make a
determination.

While some have cited Vivi and Quina's marriage in Conde Petie as evidence toward the small Black Mages being their offspring, it is impossible to corroborate such a claim for various reasons:

1) The marriage occurs in an optional scene that the player does not necessarily have to activate.
2) The marriage will only take place for the purpose of granting Vivi and Quina passage to the Conde Petie Mountain Path, not for any emotional bond between Vivi and Quina.
3) Quina's gender is unknown (if he/she even has a set-gender).
4) It's unknown whether it is even possible for Black Mages to sexually reproduce in the first place.
5) It's not known whether or not Qu reproduce through sexual interaction.
6) Supposing that it were possible for Black Mages to sexually reproduce and that Vivi had reached sexual maturity, it is not known whether or not it would even be possible for a Black Mage and a Qu to reproduce together.

For that matter, Vivi's sons do not arrive with Quina, nor do they sit with Quina in the audience during the Play in Alexandria.

Quina having anything to do with the matter is entirely unfounded and not a possibility that should be inquired into any further due to the extreme lack of evidence. Likewise in regard to Eiko, as well as the likelihood that Eiko had not even yet reached sexual maturity (she was six years old during the game after all; based on everyone looking pretty much the same during the ending, it's safe to assume that seven years had not passed).

For that matter, it's not known that the small Black Mages would have necessarily been produced through sexual reproduction were they biologically sired by Vivi. Reproduction can also occur through fision (splitting) and budding (basically, a new organism growing off of another's body). While that's not to say that either of these were the process by which Vivi's sons came to be, it is intended to say that sexual reproduction is not the only possible means of biological reproduction.

Where, then, did they come from? Quite simply, we can't be certain.

Due to the same being the case in regard to Vivi and all other Black Mages, it's likely safe to assume that Vivi's sons were composed of Spirit Energy that had gone stagnant and become Mist, but as to how that Mist coalesced into the Black Mages we see during the game's ending is left rather open-ended. That Vivi used the machines in Dali to create more, or that they formed from
his Spirit Energy upon his death are theories that could be more safely regarded as possible, yet even they are difficult to make a case for in terms of reasonable proof. As things stand, the origin of these Black Mages cannot be irreproachably proven, for there simply isn't a sufficient amount of information offered by the game toward an origin in order to make a theory
completely airtight.

That said, however, I have a theory as to their origin, and feel that it is the most likely based on in-game information coupled with in-series information:

It is known, of course, that when someone dies, their Spirit Energy returns to the Planet to be used as the energy of life in other creatures that are born. It is known also that the experiences of an individual in some way contributes toward the growth of a Planet's swell of Spirit Energy that lies at its center, whether that swell be called "the Lifestream," "the Gaia," or simply
"the light" (as it is in Final Fantasy IX). We know this based on the Gaia Theory of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within:

(Stated by Aki, quoting Dr. Sid's journal.)

"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit is housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth each spirit matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature spirit enriched by its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it the experiences, enabling Gaia to live and grow."

In bringing with it these "experiences," it would be taking with it the memories of the individual's lifetime. Based on Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and X, we can determine that memories themselves have power. We can do this for a few reasons:

In Final Fantasy X, the Fayth on Mt. Gagazet dreamed of Zanarkand as they had known it, allowing Yu Yevon to tap into their memories and fashion them into not only Dream Zanarkand, a physical place lying on another plane of existance with actual people who are born, live, and die, but also into the powerful force known as Sin, a monstrosity that ravaged the world of Spira for a
thousand years (note the Zanarkand-like architecture on Sin's head). Their memories essentially became the "fuel" for the creature.


In Final Fantasy VIII, junctioning oneself to a GF causes memory loss over time, suggesting that the GF draws on the memories of its Junction partner in order to supply them the power it does (not just calling the GF forth, but drawing, stocking, and junctioning Magicks), the one junctioned to a GF acting as a Fayth of sorts:

(After Squall and the other main characters -- minus Rinoa -- discover that they grew up together, but that all of them but Irvine had forgotten.)

Squall
"...Why is it that we forgot?"
"We grew up together as kids...How's that possible...?"

Irvine
"How about this?"
"...The price we pay for using the GF."
"The GF provides us its power."
"But the GF makes its own place inside our brain..."

Quistis
"So you're saying that the area is where our memories are stored?"
"No...! That's just a rumor the GF critics are spreading."

Zell
"So if we keep relying on the GF, we won't be able to remember a lot of
things?"

Quistis
"There's no way Headmaster Cid would allow such a dangerous thing!"

Irvine
"Then how is it that I remember, while everyone else has forgotten?"
"Well...?"
"In my case, I hadn't junctioned a GF until recently."
"That's why I remember a lot more than you guys."

Quistis
"How about you, Selphie?"
"Your first experience with the GF was when you came to Balamb Garden, right?"

Selphie
"...Yeah."

...

Selphie
"I have a confession to make!"

Selphie
"When I was 12, I went on an outdoor training session."
"I found a GF inside one of the monsters I defeated..."
"I junctioned that GF for a while. So I have experience with GF, too."
"But...but, it's really weird! I can't remember the name of that GF!"

Quistis
"It must be the GF's fault...

In Final Fantasy VII, it's said that the knoweledge contained in Materia (the memories bound to the crystalized Spirit Energy that is the Materia) interacts between the wielder of the Materia and the Planet, calling forth Magicks:

(Stated by Sephiroth in Mt. Nibel.)

"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic..... or so they say."

With these things in mind, let us recall the emphasis placed on the importance of memories in Final Fantasy IX: The game emphasises all memory and life having began at a single source, known as the Crystal. All life is connected, each having its beginning with the crystal, no matter how far back in time it is that the Crystal propagated life into existance. The game has a place known as "Memoria," which literally means "Memory" in several languages, and in which the characters trace their own Spirit Energy's back to the beginning of its existance with the Crystal, all of them even able to recall that their world was once entirely covered with water, despite this having been, perhaps, millions or billions of years before their lifetimes. Zidane was even able to
recall things of Gaia's far past, despite being from Terra, this being because all life has a single source when one traces it back far enough: The Crystal.

Also worthy of note is that it would seem that some of the Summoners of Madain Sari determined that the legends of Eidolons were the basis of their creation, and not the other way around, essentially meaning that the memory of these beings amongst the citizenry of a village or tribe would manifest the Eidolon, their customs and mental perceptions of these beings affecting even the forms they would take:

(Written on the Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari, and accessible after performing the small sidequest necessary to reveal all of the writing on the wall.)

The Legend of Eidolons

"We discovered eidolons by researching legends documented from around the
world. The Thunder God, Ramuh, is one of those legends. Some theorize that the
eidolons were created from the legends, and not the other way around."

The First Eidolon Discovered, Shiva

"Shiva took the form of a young girl when she was first discovered. She now
appears as a grown woman. Eidolons adapt their forms to the time and culture
in which they appear. Shiva illustrates this theory. In certain areas, Shiva
is depicted as a snow fairy. This cannot be verified, since the only written
document that remains is in the summoner village. People associate Shiva with
the snow fairy. Why she changes forms remains a mystery."

With the understanding of the game's emphasis on memories, recall that with Vivi's final line in the game, one final emphasis is placed on them:


"My memories will be part of the sky..."

What does this suggest? Perhaps many things. Perhaps nothing. For myself, this demands recalling that it is experiences (memories) that allow a soul to mature and the overall swell of souls to grow. Keeping this in mind, Vivi learned a great many lessons about life during the game, and gained an understanding of life and acceptance of death that few people ever would be
likely to. His experiences taught him many things about life, and he was truly a mature spirit.

Considering this and that Vivi's life was maintained by stagnant Spirit Energy, or Mist, that had been compressed into his form, upon his death it's certain his Spirit Energy would move on, departing from his body. Taking into account that his memories would be powerful indeed considering the lessons he had learned, it may be possible that his Spirit Energy -- upon his death -- dispersed, but coalesced into the new Vivis as a result of the powerful memories that had been gained (it kept in mind that the memories of the Fayth on Gagazet were even able to become life, as Dream Zanarkand was populated with living, breathing, reproducing people).

Vivi's memories granting enough strength to this Spirit Energy for new life to be manifested would actually provide an explanation for one aspect of the ending, this being how the first son of Vivi that is shown (speaking to Puck), knew Puck to be the Prince of Burmecia despite having never met him:


Puck
"Pick up the pace, will ya!?"
"I don't believe it! Vivi!"

Vivi
"Vivi?"
"How do you know that name!?"

Puck
"What are you talking about?"
"It's me, Puck! How could you forget me!?"

Vivi
"Puck...?"

Puck
"You know, Puck!"

Vivi
"Th-The Prince of Burmecia!?"

Puck
"Oh, come on! What's wrong with you?"
"If you're not Vivi, then who are you!?"

Vivi
"I'm..."
"Vivi's son!"

One final thing to consider is the symbolism of Vivi's name, "Vivi" being Latin for "Alive." That new life could emerge from his passing would be very fitting, I feel.

With all this in mind, it is my personal belief that Vivi's sons were brought into existance in the manner which I have suggested to be the case here, and that it is the most likely possibility of their origin. While, granted, there's no explanation for the mechanism that would propagate such an occurrence offered here aside from Vivi's memories having matured his Spirit Energy to the point that it was able to nourish it and provide vessels for it, without knowing full well the properties of Spirit Energy, it's -- for the moment -- a more likely possibility than most -- if not all -- others, I believe.

Thoughts anyone?

[Camanche]

Squall of SeeD, I'd love to read that right now, but it is late, I have to get up earily, and well... it's mofoin' long. XD I think I will need some proper sleep to get all that into me and understand it. :p

Maybe I'll have some thoughts on it later, assuming my mind will be able to comprehend it.

[abrojtm]

Those words in the ending are definitely Mikoto's.
Just look at them:


Kuja... What you did was wrong... But you gave us one
thing... Hope... We were all created for the wrong reason, but you alone defied our fate. We do not want to forget this. We want your memory to live on forever... ...to remind us that we were not created for the wrong reason-that our life has meaning.
I always talked about you, Zidane. How you were a very special person to us, because you taught us all how important life is. You taught me that life doesn't last forever. That's why we have to help each other and live life to the fullest. Even if you say goodbye, you'll always be in our hearts. So, I know we're not alone anymore.Why I was born... How I wanted to live... Thanks for giving me time to think. To keep doing what you set your heart on... It's a very hard thing to do. We were all so courageous...What to do when I felt lonely... That was the only thing you couldn't teach me. But we need to figure out the answer for ourselves... Everyone... Thank you. Farewell. My memories will be
part of the sky...

[Squall of SeeD]

Those words in the ending are definitely Mikoto's.
Just look at them:

After "...that our life has meaning," the screen fades to black and the scene with Mikoto and the Iifa Tree ends. We then have the "Some time later..." message appear on the screen and then are shown things that are occurring "some time later," most likely a year at the least (Dagger's hair has grown out again and she says it has been "so long" since she saw everyone), accompanied by new dialogue.

We then have someone who has obviously learned a lot from Zidane speaking, pinpointing it as either Vivi or Dagger, and then this person speaking in a manner that infers that they expect their death to be imminent, pinpointing Vivi, not Dagger or Mikoto. By the way, note how the speaker talks about going on adventures with Zidane and the others. Mikoto did no such thing. Vivi did.

The first set of dialogue does belong to Mikoto, but "I always talked about you, Zidane..." and all that follows are said by Vivi.

[Monol]

hmmm....well that blows my explanation out of the water...i completely agree...you got a lot of evidence backing up your reasoning so i really cant say much at the moment...eh maybe ill think of somthing later :D but excellent research and well done quoting most of the characters...vivi would be proud.... :cool: