final fantasy censorship

[Snowman]

no arguments guys, lets keep this classy.

as an illustrator (an award winning one lol) im constantly fighting the urge to draw the females skimpy or not. however....how many large female characters are there in FF not conting quina who was a she/he. i thought the girls were under dressed in FFX2 untill i played the game....and then it didnt really matter, it was simply a selling point and nothing else, but so is george cloony and tom cruise but i dont hear compleants.

should FF censor itself from sexy chicks or from big swords or violence. personnally i found freya attractive....so either way they carnt win

[DocFrance]

What's this about "no arguments?" I'll argue all I want!

I don't mind sex or violence in video games as long as it's not gratuitous. It has to be there for a good reason, not just for selling more copies.

Also, it's entirely possible to design a very good-looking female character who is fully clothed. A lot of people forget that and just want to see more and more skin. I think that's embarassing and degrading, if you ask me.

And Freya...? I guess you've got a thing for rats, so... whatever floats your boat, I guess...

[DJZen]

I'm personally opposed to censorship but I understand it. I think the real reasons for it aren't so much parents not wanting their children to be exposed to nudity because it'll turn them into sex fiends as much as it is parents don't want their children to watch South Park because they don't want their 7 year old kids to emulate Eric Cartman.

I personally have no problem with nudity in and of itself. However, there is definitely nudity used to simple arouse. That I'm not so into but don't really OBJECT to. What I DO object to is degradation. Treatment of people as objects. I know a lot of people who'll argue to the bitter end that whatever instance you'll come up with is false and you're reading too much into things, and personally I think they're just looking for an excuse to keep their precious naked chicks. Let's look at the example of the SNES FF games. The nudity that was included was in monsters and summonable creatures. These are things that show up for a second and are then killed or cast some sort of spell and leave. Basically they're not naked for your enjoyment, they're naked 'cause they're naked. If you ARE getting aroused by it, feel free to use the Lakshmi summon as many times as you like, just remember that fresh air is good for you. Now let's look at Fear Effect 2, which was advertised solely for having the world's first lesbian kiss in a video game. Well, maybe it wasn't, but that's not my point. My point is that they were basically marketting it as a masturbatory aid. The women weren't women so much as they were sex toys for you to use. Granted, there's MUCH worse examples of this (Virgin Roster comes to mind) but I doubt I'd be allowed to discuss them in the way they'd need to be discussed here.

Basically, nudity okay, objectification bad.

[PeTeRL90]

They mark their games with 'T' and 'M' for good reasons.

Mainly because of the language, violence, and sexual situations.

The problem is that so many kids under the age of the ratings still get the games, and when their parents find out, they go ballistic and then blame the company and try to sue them instead of watching what they get their kids.

It's one big circle.

I mean, come on, there's just about a sexual situation in everything we watch, and yet, parents won't complain about those, but they'll fly off the handle if they hear the word 'Damn' in a video game. It's just stupid, really.

There's no problem with the stuff in Final Fantasy. They made the games for a certain age range because of the mild violence and the language, which is why they mark the games with a 'T'. The same thing goes with Resident Evil, the it's for a certain age range with the 'M' rating because of the violence and gore and language too.

Why censor something when they mark it for a certain age range? Because parents like to complain about it, and then try to sue the company?

[Snowman]

i intended no arguments so we get a nice long thread and not something shutdown because poeple carnt hold it in.

i agree that degradation is uncalled for...however many people push their own personnal flavour on things and then decide for others they are being degraded?

not everyones parents are the same, mine have always trusted me to be responsible and so left it up to my own choices. thus i can appriciate teh witty "between the lines" aspects of tarentino's writing while i personnally feel southpark is dribble. sure you have to accept that games will be played by all ages, but rather than make something with nothing for teh older market or vice versa...take a leaf from Mainframes award winning animations where theres a very large subtext for adults that just glosses over kids.

i take the issue of censorship because while people fight for the right for Rikku to where a belt as a mini skirt they dont consider the lack of larger characters which itself is a form of censorship.

[Sephex]

Pretty much, I don't mind is a woman is half naked or fully clothed. It doesn't really bother me unless things go over the top. Same thing with violence. I don't mind seeing it unless it's there just to be there. Not that it offends me; I just feel it just makes something really lame.

[Snowman]

monsters...now because of my own morality etc.....i dont like teh idea of roaming around killing monsters as much as i do human characters....if only because i dont regard something that carnt speak and think like us isnt as much of a threat of dangerous as us. when FFX came up with the idea that the monsters are actually human spirits turned evil it was cool and i felt comfortable battling everything.

[DJZen]

I mean, come on, there's just about a sexual situation in everything we watch, and yet, parents won't complain about those, but they'll fly off the handle if they hear the word 'Damn' in a video game. It's just stupid, really.

In my experience that's not even true as an exaggeration. What I've seen/heard about parents flying off the handle over is more things like finding out that 7 year old Johnny has been playing Manhunt and GTA3 while at his friend's house or like how Mafia has you running around killing cops and in GTA you can take a hooker into your car, have sex with her, then kick her out, shoot her, run her over a few times for good measure and steal your money back. Now, I know you're all saying "but I want to kill hookers in my videogames!", that's fine, go ahead, but this is actually the real point behind censorship, to prevent kids from being exposed to emulatable behaviour that they don't understand. Do little kids know what sex actually is? The sorts of effects it has on people (I'm talking about emotional effects here)? Heck, I don't know many people MY age who seem to get that last part. It really comes down to responsibility. If you don't understand what you're doing, you can't take responsibility for yourself, so someone else has to to prevent you from getting hurt or hurting someone else or whatever it is they're trying to stop. I'm not saying this works all the time, but I can definitely understand why parents don't want their children watching the scene in Pulp Fiction where John Travolta shoots up, or the scene cut out of Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back involving Scooby Doo, or pretty much ANYTHING in pro wrestling. I'm not saying I agree, but I think they have valid arguments here. A lot of kids really DON'T understand what they're watching or playing. They DEFINITELY wouldn't understand hentai games. Do you want YOUR kids playing hentai games? "Daddy, what's that octopus thing doing to that woman?"

[Edgar]

You seen what happened to Suikoden 3? It was so darn different from it's predessesors (sp? lol). I was gaping with my mouth wide open when I saw how...let's put it this way: My friends and I feel that the Suikoden 2 scriptwriter was being substituded into a 'Teletubies' one.

It's a complete degration as far as scriptwriting is concerned.

Oh, the musicians must've changed.

(this was strictly based on opinion and not intended to bash. Just trying to get the point on censoring too much words)

[Snowman]

great point DJ....about kids not actually understanding what they are doing as they run over the hooker. i know alot of people who are games mad and while i learnt as a kid to use knifes safely and fight with swords for real they were blasting goons in doom. today even older they still dont have the reality of killing or fighting in them to bring them down to earth. they glamourise it and laugh. thats not teh games fault..but it is part OF the game. existing almost soly amongst other gamers and not "getting out there" has made them have no regard for people in countries getting killed or tortured, they begin to act and speak degeneratively when reffering to rape as something "fun". certainly this is because they havent grown up responsible..it's because of many things..and certain video games are simply a part of it.

[DJZen]

I've never run into anyone who thinks rape is fun, personally. Also, I meant more little LITTLE kids, like 7 year olds. I don't even mean 13 year olds. I mean REALLY young children. At that age you're more impressionable. I don't think that playing GTA3 once automatically makes you want to shoot cops or anything, and I know that most people can tell the difference between video game violence and real violence......

What I'm trying to say is difficult. My vocabulary is somewhat limited from all the years of playing games and not reading I guess. I'm trying to talk about personal responsibility here. Ultimately, anything that you do is a choice you make. Granted, you're not always given a myriad of options (give the mugger your wallet/get shot), but you always have a choice when it comes down to what you do. If you punch a guy in the face, it was your choice to do so. If you eat McDonald's and get fat, it was your choice to do so. The main difference between violence in games and violence in real life is that in games, you're rewarded for violent behavior, while in real life, you have to live with what you've done. In games, even when some poor civilian is being devoured by zombies, it's only there to entertain you. In real life, watching someone get hurt is a very unpleasent thing. What parents are concerned about is kids not really understanding this difference. It's the same thing with sex, drugs, and every other controversial topic you'd like to cover. This is where we come back to responsibility. I personally blame parents for having no clue what their children are playing more than I do the game companies for making violent games, but you have to realize that if you chose to actually hit someone in real life, that was YOUR choice. It's not your parents' fault for bad parenting or the game company for glamourizing violence, it was a choice you made. If you're a very young child, chances are you really don't understand this very well. Parents know this and parents in favor of censorship are trying to protect their children from being influenced by things they don't know about.

However, you're right, Snowman, that a lot of people don't know about these things because they have no real life context in which to place it. That's another discussion entirely but I'll offer my two cents on it. Basically people realize that living in fear of your life is not desireable. A lot of people feel that the best way to not be in fear of your life to to strive for peace, and for a good amount of people, this means non-violence in your dialy life. We equate violence with bad. I can understand that. I would be horrified to see a friend get beaten within an inch of his life. However, because we live lives that are so free of violence we've sort of come to fear it. It's this strange alien thing that we've heard about, and seen pictures of, but haven't really experienced. We buy our meat pre-deadified and packed in nice pretty containers, completely disassociating what's on your dinner plate from an actual (formerly) living breathing animal. Fighting and killing are mostly foreign to people in our (and by our I mean American) culture. Unfortunately for us, we have eyes in the front of our heads, meaning nature designed us to be hunters. Violence is an instinct. I don't know why, but I do know that it does take a lot to really get those tendencies out of your system. We're programmed for it. Basically, we condemn something that nature intended for us to do. A lot of people repress these urges which only makes them manifest in other weird ways. In some this instinct it manifests itself through art, some through vicarious viewing, some through other ways. We're always looking for that loophole to feed that urge, but when we do, we don't get everything that violence gives. Violence ISN'T pleasent. Hurting people ISN'T fun. Realising you can actually kill someone is a pretty sobering thought for most. At least, I hope it is.... I personally feel that we should be exposed to it safely. I'm favorable towards martial arts, especially when as emphasis is placed on reality based training. It gives you a VERY different perspective on things....

[Snowman]

i was also reffring to younger ages DJ. the main example i was reffering to is an old school pal i knew from primary (kindergarden for Yanks). certainly he was already slighty messed up back then, but from our days in school in teh eighties and ninties, as sonic made way for the much more volitile doom.....all he EVER did was play video games because he has sina biffida and wouldnt come out of the house. from then he had a cavalier idea of violence...while at teh same time i grew to learn to use swords and around magic fairs etc, so i instead was surrounded with the notions of cherishing life. today he thinks it's cool to make jokes about anal sex and worse.

when i was tought how to use a sword for real i fought adults as their were no other kids around.....so i also learned to be good as a child to beat them.....but i was also learning a large responisbility. i was doing blows at full speed with an edged weapon and pulling the blows so i won, but didnt hurt anyone. it gave me a confidence and responsibility that many dont have.

i wouldnt say fear violence as much as not appriciate how terrible and horrific it is. people think they are entitled to things they would think they were if they lived elsewhere and so they dont know what to do when they encounter someone who violence is second nature too.

im vegan so im totally aware of the connection between "relation to whats on your plate". this also beings up a current theory in humanity that the two kinds of early man didnt kill the other.....that both the warrior/viloent meateaters and the artistic/nonviolent veges actually mated and created what we are today...hence we are omnivores and so many people are peaceful and so many others turn to violence.

i embrace the violence within me both spiritually and through the sword which allows me to NOT be a nutter. sparring and actual fighting...we teach both at full speed and contact but for you to have control over yourself and teh wepons so that you dont put each other in hospital......somthing im discovering in teh UK that many martial arts places dont do.

[DocFrance]

You've also got to remember that Square is a company, and they need money. If they make a game that features full nudity, the game is going to get an 'M' rating. That means that less people are going to or will be able to buy that game. Same goes with large amounts of violence.

If you ask me, Square has no reason to include gratuitous sex or violence in their games, especially Final Fantasy. If you really want to see naked video game characters, go find some hentai.

[DJZen]

Agreed, but isn't there a rating for games that have full frontal nudity? Or did they get rid of it because they were never using it?

[sephiroth21]

the A rating for adult but its only used for japanesse-only games

[Snowman]

i wouldnt want an FF with full nudity simply because it would get boring real fast....i like there to be a vaild story reason if theres nakedness, i have no idea where your getting this from doc because ive never asked for any nudity or violence, in fact if anything me and DJ were just saying why there SHOULDNT be any in video games.

some of teh best final fantasy artwork can be found amongst the hentai artists.

do people take that much notice of game ratings?

[DocFrance]

i wouldnt want an FF with full nudity simply because it would get boring real fast....i like there to be a vaild story reason if theres nakedness, i have no idea where your getting this from doc because ive never asked for any nudity or violence, in fact if anything me and DJ were just saying why there SHOULDNT be any in video games.

some of teh best final fantasy artwork can be found amongst the hentai artists.

do people take that much notice of game ratings? I was talking about "you" in general - other people. You, on the other hand, decided to take my comment as one directed at "you" in particular.

Anyway, I see no reason for Square to feature overt sex or violence in their games, even if the plot needs it. In these cases, it can be tastefully edited. Xenogears is a prime example of how editing can be tasteful and unobtrusive to the plot.

By introducing "adult" elements to a game, the company will only decrease the number of people willing and able to buy their product - something that Squaresoft, which relies on huge sales to drive a profit, will not do. It's a simple cost/benefit analysis.

[Snowman]

sorry doc, my mistake :p
but i agree with you

[admat97]

Thank you for the thoughtfulness and obvious intelligence of this thread! :)

[DJZen]

There's been full frontal nudity in FF games before... Heck, even CT had full frontal nudity.

[Snowman]

ill take that as a compliment Admat97.

i dont remeber any full frontal nudity in any FF?

[DJZen]

That's 'cause it gets removed. I shoulda been clearer about that, sorry. In the original Japanese version of FF6 the Esper/Genjuu named Starlet in America and Lakshmi in Japan was at least topless. Japan has no problem showing boobs, it's just when we travel south of the equator that we experience problems. It's ironic, I think, but I'm not Japanese. However, I'm POSITIVE that the statue of Magus in CT was baring it all.

[DocFrance]

South of the equator? Japan and America are on the same hemisphere, smart... oh... I get it. South of the equator... You live in Brazil, don't you?

[Snowman]

i didnt know that DJ, cheers. Giant nuddy weapons :tongue: :D