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Doomgaze
05-04-2004, 07:27 PM
<a href = "http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1581842,00.asp">Microsoft is expected to recommend that the "average" Longhorn PC feature a dual-core CPU running at 4 to 6GHz; a minimum of 2 gigs of RAM; up to a terabyte of storage; a 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link; and a graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today.</a>

Rainecloud
05-04-2004, 07:29 PM
Forget the article, I'm more interested in the special offer on the page:

http://m3.doubleclick.net/viewad/651227/Dell.contest_mpu.gif (http://internet.ziffdavis.com/promo/)

What an offer!

Yamaneko
05-04-2004, 07:36 PM
They'll do that if they don't want to sell the damn thing. By the time of its official release (two years from now?) most computer users won't have those specs in their computers yet.

Not that I care. By then I won't be using Windows much, if at all.

Doomgaze
05-04-2004, 07:44 PM
I've also heard it's going to be completely NON backwards-compatible. Anyone hear something along those lines?


and I'm hopefully going to have an IT job by then, so I'll probablly need to get it to be familiar with it :p

Peegee
05-04-2004, 08:31 PM
Sounds like a plan. I expect it to cost 5 grand?

Dr Unne
05-04-2004, 09:15 PM
<i>They'll do that if they don't want to sell the damn thing. By the time of its official release (two years from now?) most computer users won't have those specs in their computers yet.</i> --Yamaneko

They've done it with every single release of Windows. I predict that people will (again) say "O NOE MY PUTERS 2 SLOE AN WINDOZE NEDES MOER RAMS SO IT MUST BE MUCH MOER TEN TIEMS BETTAR TAHN TEH OLD VARSHUNS OF WINDOZE SINS IT MUST HAEV AL KINDSA FEETURS NOW SO IL BY AN NEW PUTER WOOOOOO TAEK MY MONIES MS", and go buy a new computer, and pay a couple hundred dollars for a new version of Windows which is exactly like the old versions except with added fluff and bloat and bugs and security features which treat you like a criminal. And when it sucks, people will vaguely wonder why, and wait for the next version.

bennator
05-04-2004, 09:36 PM
"O NOE MY PUTERS 2 SLOE AN WINDOZE NEDES MOER RAMS SO IT MUST BE MUCH MOER TEN TIEMS BETTAR TAHN TEH OLD VARSHUNS OF WINDOZE SINS IT MUST HAEV AL KINDSA FEETURS NOW SO IL BY AN NEW PUTER WOOOOOO TAEK MY MONIES MS",

Microsoft is so evil, it can even make Unne talk n00bish.

Peegee
05-04-2004, 09:38 PM
This thread needs to be archived just because of Dr Unne's noob speak.

Rainecloud
05-04-2004, 09:59 PM
This is the second time Unne has done this in 2004. I'm impressed and shocked.

DocFrance
05-04-2004, 10:05 PM
Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

Erdrick Holmes
05-04-2004, 10:29 PM
Ok, im gona be a linux man, now.

Yamaneko
05-04-2004, 10:43 PM
Gentoo Linux's system requirements are pretty steep, but nowhere as horrific as Longhorn's.

Erdrick Holmes
05-04-2004, 10:44 PM
Yams, can Gentoo run of 600mhz system?

Linus
05-04-2004, 11:24 PM
Who cares if Unne is making fun of people?

The real issue here is how much Bill Gates stands to profit from this venture.

Mikztsu
05-04-2004, 11:26 PM
What?

Dr Unne
05-04-2004, 11:28 PM
Joel, I ran Gentoo just fine on a 550MHz system, 256MB RAM. Some distros of Linux can still run fine on an old 486. There's no reason Windows should need 6 <em>gigahertz</em>.

Erdrick Holmes
05-04-2004, 11:29 PM
Isn't Gentoo that one Linux OS that was free or are all Linux OSs free?

Dr Unne
05-04-2004, 11:30 PM
Most of them are free. If you have to pay for it, don't use it.

musashius
05-05-2004, 12:54 AM
Oh well, I hate computers anyway. However, I'm liking that watch up there in the second post.

RSL
05-05-2004, 01:05 AM
6 gigahertz. That's insane.

Endless
05-05-2004, 02:55 AM
Most of them are free. If you have to pay for it, don't use it.


I beg to differ :p
Paying (Mandrake for example) can be a way to support your favorite distro. True, you can get it for free too, but then, you don't have much support, and you get less than with the paid version.
Also, if you're a company, you might prefer paying versions for all the services that come with the distro.

Anyway.
I find the list of requirements funny, but then, since there are still companies running 95/98 as desktops and NT as servers, I expect the move to longhorn REAL slow, which also means the alternatives will get an opportunity to grab land (more Apache, more Linux...). Well, maybe the specs are justified, you'll need all that to break all the drm stuff included, in order to use your comp the way you want. ;)

Dr Unne
05-05-2004, 03:06 AM
If you HAVE to pay for it, don't use it. I have and will continue to pay for Linux, but not because I have to. :)

Erdrick Holmes
05-05-2004, 03:23 AM
Im concidering getting Redhat sometime, is it really worth it?

Citizen Bleys
05-05-2004, 04:33 AM
Joel, I ran Gentoo just fine on a 550MHz system, 256k RAM.

256k RAM?

Did it have a low-density 5.25" floppy drive and a CGA monitor, too? Or did you really splurge and get an EGA?

Dr Unne
05-05-2004, 04:40 AM
You misquoted me, as my post says 256MB, and I clearly didn't use admin powers to avoid making it looked like I edited my post.

DMKA
05-05-2004, 04:45 AM
*laughs at the people who rag on windows simply because their blaming their lack of knowledge and mistreatment on it*:p:p:p

Windows = :love:

RSL
05-05-2004, 04:49 AM
Oh yeah, Windows is crap because I mistreat it. I say harsh things about it and kick it every once in awhile. No wonder it crashes and allows a different worm every month to exploit it! I suppose I'll start feeding it milk and cookies and reading it a bedtime story at night. Hopefully we'll start a good relationship after this.

Loony BoB
05-06-2004, 01:42 PM
Unless Linux's capabilities have greatly improved since last time I was told of what it/they can/can't do, I'll stick with Windows as Linux would give me more problems than Windows would.

Erdrick Holmes
05-06-2004, 03:21 PM
Just use X freakin' P pro or Windows 2000/2003.

Yamaneko
05-06-2004, 07:26 PM
Is Win2003 even usable as a personal OS?

Dr Unne
05-06-2004, 07:49 PM
Define "usable".

Misfit
05-06-2004, 07:51 PM
Define "usable".
us·a·ble also use·a·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (yz-bl)
adj.

That can be used: usable byproducts.
Fit for use; convenient to use: usable spare parts.

Yamaneko
05-06-2004, 07:51 PM
WinME = The extreme of a usable OS.

Dr Unne
05-06-2004, 08:01 PM
<i>Fit for use; convenient to use.</i>

No version of Windows fits that description.

Citizen Bleys
05-06-2004, 11:28 PM
Oh yeah, Windows is crap because I mistreat it. I say harsh things about it and kick it every once in awhile. No wonder it crashes and allows a different worm every month to exploit it! I suppose I'll start feeding it milk and cookies and reading it a bedtime story at night. Hopefully we'll start a good relationship after this.


Don't feed it cookies.

And actually, yeah, you are mistreating it in a number of ways.

1) No or inadequate firewall
2) No or inadequate antivirus protection
3) No or inadequate use of Windows Update

And possibly:
4) Opening of email attachments without adequate verification of authenticity
5) Use of Outlook Express

A router is an adequate firewall even if you don't spend any time configuring it. XPee's built-in Internet Connection firewall is inadequate, as is ZoneAlarm, which causes more problems than it fixes.

Norton Antivirus or AVG is adequate antivirus protection if you have automatic updates turned on. McAffee is not. Yes, it was, once, but those days are gone. Network Associates dropped the ball. Symantec hasn't so far, and AVG's actually better in a lot of ways than Norton--being free, for example.

Windows update: Update early. Update often. Turn on automatic updates.

I see virus/worm alerts left, right, and center, and I just laugh. MyDoom? Sasser? RPC? What's all that crap? The only reason I even know it exists is because there are users out there who don't take even the simplest of precautions, and then act surprised when they get infected. I turn on my monitor every morning to see that nice comforting row of red zeroes that says that nothing even made it far enough to hit my antivirus scanner.

People who spew hate at XP just do it because they don't know how to use the OS. One would spew hate at a table saw, too, if one cut off a thumb or, say, genitals, but the fact is the table saw is only intended to cut, it's not intended to be mommy and daddy. You put wood on, the saw cuts it. You put body parts on, the saw cuts those, too. When you do something really stupid, Windows will usually come up with a little dialog box that says "Hey, man, are you really sure you want to stick your finger in there?" The saw just cuts it off.

Switch to Linux? Go ahead! Chances are, you don't know how to use that, either. Have a blast! You think it's hard to learn to do things in Windows? You're going to love the command prompt, especially if you can't spell--and this means 80-90% of the EoFF audience. Also especially fun is the no-prompts Linux philosophy--Made for power users who know what they're doing. It's great if you know that you don't really want to cat /dev/zero > /dev/hda0, but what if you're some newbie who can't even master the use of "their" versus "there," and doesn't know which witch is which? You tell Linux to rape your partition table, it just rapes away, without the Microsoft prompt that says "Hey, man, that's really *arf*ing dumb. Are you sure you want to do it?"

Peegee
05-06-2004, 11:31 PM
But I like Outlook Express :(

Citizen Bleys
05-06-2004, 11:36 PM
Don't go Linux then.

As a general rule:

If you're a system administrator or network professional, use Linux--for your own computer. At work, you'll still be supporting Windows servers, of course, but you'll be happier running Linux at home.

If you're a user, stay the *arf* away from anything other than XP.

ZeZipster
05-06-2004, 11:44 PM
Win 2k was great... A lot better than XP. I miss my 2k machine.

:cry:

Dr Unne
05-06-2004, 11:46 PM
Bleys, that's why everyone who can't use Linux should get a Mac. :)

<i>One would spew hate at a table saw, too, if one cut off a thumb or, say, genitals, but the fact is the table saw is only intended to cut, it's not intended to be mommy and daddy.</i> --Bleys

In Windows' case, you need to remove the parts of the saw that come broken or defective out of the box, ignore some of the parts that work but are too dangerous to use, build a solid steel barrier around the saw to protect you from random breakages and shrapnel, disable the remote-control "features" which lets anyone in the world start your saw from their own living room, and replace the saw every 2 years with a saw that's exactly the same, but a different color, and incompatible with your old saw. In the case of Linux, the saw has a million buttons, but as long as you don't press the one of the ones called "self-destruct" it won't. In the case of Mac, the saw is easy to use, but costs $3500 and people will make fun of you for buying one.

BillyBob McAverageuser doesn't understand what a "firewall" does either, or how to tell a virus email from a good email; if it says it's from BillyBob Jr., why not open it? If Windows comes with IE and OE, why not use those? If Windows comes with a firewall, why should someone pay for a different one? When one of Windows patches randomly breaks something on his computer, he's going to be just as lost as if he gets a kernel panic in Linux. When he starts getting random BSoD's, what's he going to do? When a virus gets right past his AV, then what? If you're smart enough to use XP without having it meltdown, I think you're just about smart enough to use, say, Mandrake or Lindows or some newbie-Linux, and you're more than smart enough to use a Mac.

Bad thing about Linux: Everything is complicated. Bad thing about Windows: Many things are complicated, but everything LOOKS easy.

Rye
05-06-2004, 11:51 PM
A router is an adequate firewall even if you don't spend any time configuring it. XPee's built-in Internet Connection firewall is inadequate, as is ZoneAlarm, which causes more problems than it fixes.

I agree. It messed up my computer, and when I took it out, my computer was completely fine.

ZeZipster
05-07-2004, 12:02 AM
Dr Unne, you really don't undersand. Windows is the operating system. Why don't you go around town and ask people about Linux? Chances are a large percentage won't even know what it is. How do you expect it to be easier for people to use it? You learn what is given to you, and the majority of the time for most people that is Windows. You can't just tell people some thing is easier, the fact of the matter is Windows would be easier because of the fact that they used Windows first. I don't use Linux much because it would mean not being able to play a lot of games. I could set it up to have both operating systems, but then I'd have to be learning two different operating systems. I'm not going to say that Windows is better than Linux. I like Linux, but every thing I use is on Windows. Maybe in the future, when more things are developed for Linux, I will switch to it completely. But right now, no one I know uses it, none of the games I play are compatible with it and I have to fiddle with it just to make it like what I am use to in Windows.

RSL
05-07-2004, 12:42 AM
Thanks for the awesome lecture, Bleys.

Erdrick Holmes
05-07-2004, 12:54 AM
I agree. I think that instead of making an OS that has a billion and a half Bells and Whistles. Microsoft needs to quit having the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy designers to point out ways for an OS to look "chique" with the 3D GUI interface that is really unessesary, and just make there OS come with a stronger built in Firewall. It'll make the OS cost about 20 bucks extra but it'll be worth it. I just got cable recently and I'm about 20 times more concerned about my web security then I did when I had 56k, so I just downloaded Zonealarm because it's all I can afford.

Dr Unne
05-07-2004, 12:57 AM
<i>You learn what is given to you, and the majority of the time for most people that is Windows.</i> --ZeZipster

This is what most people do, yes. And those people get what they deserve: shoddy products. Being an informed consumer is a good thing. If you mindlessly buy whatever anyone puts in front of you, then you will be taken advantage of.

Joel, Bleys is right, buy a hardware router. They're like $25, and far superior to any software firewall. Plus they let you have a home network.

Loony BoB
05-07-2004, 01:15 PM
<i>Bleys, that's why everyone who can't use Linux should get a Mac.</i> - Unne

Number of times I've had a Mac crash on me: Roughly 1000.
Number of times I've used a Mac: Roughly 1050.

Number of times I've had XP crash on me: Roughly twice.
Number of times I've used XP: Well, everyday, 24/7, really.

Unne, if everyone here used Linux, I can almost guarantee you'd have to deal with about 1,000 times the help requests you get right now at EoFF. Well, you wouldn't HAVE to deal with them, but you, being the person who told them to use Linux, should.

I agree with everything Bleys said. If Linux ran all my programs and I was capable of using it, I'd use Linux. Unfortunately, those two negatives (it can't run all the programs I use and I don't know the programming language of Linux) outweigh the positives. Especially given the fact that I've hardly ever had a single problem with XP in over 1.5 years of running it 24/7.

Spuuky
05-07-2004, 01:39 PM
I know how to do everything I could possibly need to know how to do in XP and then some. I have no particular desire to learn how to use a new operating system (well, to a degree, since I used linux about 5 years ago) just so that I can avoid the difficulties that I... already avoid...

Peegee
05-07-2004, 04:37 PM
If the blasted O/S would install, I would be able to use and actually USE linux. But it won't, so I can't, so I won't.

Simple as that.

Doomgaze
05-07-2004, 08:34 PM
What PG said.


Hey, I'll pick up a new distro next time I'm at school. Need a suggestion - Should I go with Fedora, or...?

crono_logical
05-07-2004, 08:39 PM
I like Gentoo :{

Need to reinstall it though (windows bad behaviour when stuff's broke :p), it shouldn't detect the network card as eth0 in one kernel and eth1 in another same version kernel.

Doomgaze
05-07-2004, 09:01 PM
I'm a newbie, I don't think gentoo would be the best choice.

Peegee
05-07-2004, 09:15 PM
Get Lycoris. Except for the annoying 'it won't reboot' problem that I got, it is pretty easy. Of course the only thing I would use linux for is a low-resource using OS so I can fold proteins :p

Burtsplurt
05-07-2004, 09:21 PM
I installed Gentoo a couple of weeks ago. It took me three days, and that was using the stage 3 (i.e. the easiest and quickest) install. Most of it was my fault, though. Messing up is a good way of learning. :)

Dr Unne
05-07-2004, 09:46 PM
Gentoo is only good if you want to learn what you're doing. If you want a toaster with a mouse sticking out of it, where you turn it on and hit "EMAIL" and it emails, then get a Mac, like I said. If you want total control over your computer, then use Gentoo, because Gentoo gives you total control, whether you want it or not. Gentoo will cure you of newbieness in short order, if you want to learn.

PG, obviously Linux DOES install, because people do use it. If it won't install for you, then most likely it's your fault, and most likely someone can help you if you would ask.

<i>Number of times I've had a Mac crash on me: Roughly 1000.
Number of times I've used a Mac: Roughly 1050.</i> --BoB

THAT'S YOUR FAULT FOR NOT USING IT RIGHT SINCE MAC NEVER GIVES ME PROBLEMS! I think that's the generally-accepted response.

I don't care what anyone uses, honestly. Just saying, Linux is better in many ways, so that for people who themselves care about such things, they can know. If you like Windows, then have fun using it.

<i>it shouldn't detect the network card as eth0 in one kernel and eth1 in another same version kernel.</i> --Arche

Probably blame the kernel for that, not Gentoo. I've experienced it too. You shouldn't ever need to reinstall Gentoo though, unless portage itself is broken, and even then there are ways to fix it using the LiveCD. Look into emerge -e, which installs the entire portage tree from glibc upwards. Things don't randomly break in Gentoo; there's always a reason for it, and you can actually FIGURE OUT the reason 99% of the time. "Reinstall the OS" is a Windows way of fixing things, and given the huge amount of time it takes to install Gentoo, it's never the best way to fix a problem.

Citizen Bleys
05-07-2004, 10:10 PM
THAT'S YOUR FAULT FOR NOT USING IT RIGHT SINCE MAC NEVER GIVES ME PROBLEMS! I think that's the generally-accepted response.

I don't care what anyone uses, honestly. Just saying, Linux is better in many ways, so that for people who themselves care about such things, they can know. If you like Windows, then have fun using it.

To listen to most Linux users, you'd think it's better in not many, but all ways, and it is for absolutely everybody, no matter what. I think if people like that got listened to more often, there would be a lot more computer-related suicides in the world. Yes, Linux has its uses, but so does Windows. And I suppose, in some cases, some insane yahoo might even want to buy a Mac, but I would counsel intensive psychiatric therapy as a happier alternative.

The Linux community coined the term "FUD," or Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt to describe Microsoft's activities...but you know what? Nobody spreads FUD better than a Linux user. Nobody. Not even Ballmer, and Ballmer's pretty bloody good at spreading FUD.

And this, of course, has the effect of making me sound like a Microsoft evangelist just because I am no more willing to listen to senseless one-sided propaganda from the Linux community than I am from Microsoft. I must respond, just as I respond when a clueless Windows user bashes Linux with little or no basis. You don't see much of that online, because most of the people I deal with online actually have a clue about how to work a computer, so the ones spreading the FUD are invariably the Linux camp. I especially love the emphasis on "Free this" and "free that." Linux is only free if your time isn't worth anything.

And Doom, go with Mandrake. Red Hat has officially dropped the ball. Fedora's a piece of crap. It would be better if you thought you could handle Gentoo, but if you can't, then definitely go with Mandrake.

Dr Unne
05-07-2004, 10:42 PM
My time is worth something, but I enjoy spending time using a computer. Some people buy a cheap car and drive it to work every day, and don't mind that it runs and looks like crap so long as it gets you places; some people build most of their cars themselves in the garage and spend 3 hours a day waxing it once it's done. Depends what you want out of your computer.

Linux isn't run by a shady company that blatantly abuses and lies to its customers, which is probably why there's so much anti-MS FUD. Linux dorks write their own OS; they aren't going to FUD themselves, and of course they have more personal, emotional interest in such things, because the OS is a personal project. Linux guys get slammed too though, even by other Linux guys, when they do something stupid. Did you read all the stuff about the xfree project? Changed a line in their copyright document, and resulted in a community-wide boycott. Read some of the distro-wars, or programming-language-wars. There's plenty of internal Linux fanaticism too, as much as external anti-MS fanaticism.

Loony BoB
05-07-2004, 11:15 PM
The reason I don't trust people who tell me to use Linux is because they don't tell you about the bad things and they don't tell you about how capable you need to be to handle and they don't accept that Microsoft does have it's benefits. Or at least the few evangelists for Linux that I know of don't. And until someone can tell me what I'm getting into and until I can understand everything about it, all those people are nothing but door-to-door salesmen to me, and I don't trust door to door salesmen either.

There are some people who understand and accept that some people are better off with Microsoft and some people are better off with Linux. And it's those people that I listen to and it's those people that can offer me real advice. And it's more often than not those people that tell me that I should probably stick with Windows XP.

Endless
05-08-2004, 03:15 AM
For beginners who don't want to ruin their Windows install, there's that nice program called vmware. It allows you to run a virtual machine, which can in turn run pretty much any (Intel/AMD compliant) OS. Which means you can try Linux (be it Gentoo, 'Drake, or RedHat/Fedora), :love::love::love::love: up beyond belief, and then learn from your mistakes without ruining other partitons. Then you can retry.
Needless to say, it's better to buy <a href="http://www.vmware.com/products/desktop/ws_features.html">vmware</a>, but there's also the possibility of <a href="http://www.vmware.com/vmwarestore/newstore/wkst_eval_login.jsp">evaluating</a> it. Or other ways to get it too. Whichever floats your boats.

zendust1
05-08-2004, 03:35 AM
DOWN WITH MS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arise form the ashes Apple!!!!!

Personally detest anything that has to do with MS (unfortunately there sometimes isn't any alternative for some software/games). Someday Linux, Apple and everything else will be FAR supperior (for they are already superior) than that cr@p.....

*rants*

Citizen Bleys
05-09-2004, 06:52 PM
And it's more often than not those people that tell me that I should probably stick with Windows XP.

Actually, I think you know enough to handle Linux, so although I'm usually one of those people, my advice to you would be to dual-boot XP and a few distros of Linux and decide for yourself.

Loony BoB
05-09-2004, 07:06 PM
If I start having problems with XP, I'll keep that in mind. :)

Rainecloud
05-09-2004, 07:11 PM
I think that some of us are being far too picky, especially Unne. ;)

If you're happy with your OS, and it's working fine for you, then there's absolutely no problem whatsoever. All operating systems and browsers have their faults and problems (some more so than others), but not all of us use our computers for the same purpose. I use my PC for browsing the Internet, listening to music and using MSN Messenger. I have never had any major problems with Windows throughout my Internet using years, so I'm happy with Microsoft right now. :D

Everyone has a right to express their own opinion about each OS, though. Just don't go overboard and slag it to hell and back if someone is getting along with it just fine. It's not necessary, and it makes you look like a big head. ;)

Peegee
05-09-2004, 07:18 PM
Apple is for graphics artists for some reason. Microsoft is for newbies and non-power users, and Linux is for...what? Geeks? People who want to customise stuff?

I don't see an intrinsic performance superiority when comparing Linux to, say, Microsoft. In fact I've heard from users of both that Linux can't fold proteins as quickly as winXP. Hah.

But really, what 'purpose' does linux serve? It doesn't support a great deal of software, I wouldn't use it for graphics-intensive programs/rendering, and apparently it is inferior in folding proteins. I'm confused.