Black Mage and subjobs

[Lord Chainsaw]

It's that time for me.

That special time in one's life where they must begin to consider a subjob. Actually, I was told to get my ass back to Selbina and get a subjob by my group because I was the only person in Qufim without one.

So my question is, what is good to sub with a Black Mage? I'm not going to ask what the best is, but I'd like to know what would be good and bad about the "Big 3" (Red Mage, White Mage, Summoner)

I have already decided not to go white mage. So right now I'm torn between Red Mage and Summoner. I don't want to be used as a back up healer so Summoner gets points there. But on the other hand, I'd like to have some cure spells in case of an emergency.

I also hear Red Mages get fast cast. What is this? When do they learn it? Is it a permament or is it an ability that has to be casted?

[Ichy]

Well, you'd need a job at 30 to get summoner... and it takes alot of work, that one. That basically means that you need a Sub to help you get to 30 before you can consider SMN. WHM would give you far more MP than RDM, and being used as a backup healer in a pinch makes you *quite* valuable, and noone could really expect you to be a main healer having half level cures compared to a full out WHM, but if you really want to limit your options for getting into PTs...

then...

Looks like you've made your own decision already, RDM for you... which means you'll still have the occasional emergency cure to perform, but not nearly as often ;)

[Ouch!]

Subbing Red Mage doesn't do very much for you, really. Red Mage works best as a main job, and isn't too terribly useful as a main job. All it will do is give you a bit of strength and defense boost, but that isn't really necessary for a Black Mage.

Even though your initial reaction is not to go with White Mage, it is the best path until you can get your summoner advanced class. Then you could go either SMN/BLM or BLM/SMN and have a heap of MP and great offensive capabilities.

[Lionx]

First i want to say, after lvl 20 without a subjob, forget parties. Its mandatory.

First of all, WHM is the preffered subjob. For MANY reasons.

You get status cures
Get Cure spells faster as opposed to the RDM, example is CureII, at lvl 22 you get it as BLM while for /RDM in the BLM, its lvl 28, and alot of spells over lap. You also miss out on Divine Seal, and Regen and other stuff. BAsically you cant expect the WHM and RDM to always keep things ok, you never know how the /WHM willl save everyone and keep monsters comming instead of not being able to do anything. /WHM is the recommended sub and the one i would prefer. First thing i would look for BLM is BLM/WHM because they have more to offer.

/SMN is only useful at lvl 50 with Auto Refresh, but to me that isnt a means to forgo anything the WHM sub has to offer. So the only thing left is MP boost. But thats not useful when the MP has nothing to be spent on. Sure you can nuke more, but you prolly disrupt the PLD/WAR/NIN on holding hate, you rarely use up all your MP in a battle, and if you are at higher lvls, something is wrong there.

/RDM is basically anything a WHM can give and less. Fast Cast is NOT the 2hr, that is Chainspell. Fast Cast makes your casting less for each spell(passive trait). But theres no need for even that because more nuke=more hate, and you need to ration and make sure hate is minimal to you. Magic burst? i think that without fast cast you can know how your cast times are and fast cast actualy SCREWS it up more.

So /WHM is the recommended sub and /SMN being second....but a FAR FAR second. I prefer /WHM over any other sub. And i am sure the majority of the people prefer it too. /WHM on alot of mage type jobs cept the WHM itself is just too freaking good.

[Flying Mullet]

Okay, just to put a little spin on this, what's the best suq-job for a white mage? Both with regular jobs and with advanced jobs.

[Lionx]

I wil just say, adv job=another job.

WHM is good with /BLM or /SMN

/BLM offers:

Escape
More enfeeble
Warp
Drain/Aspir
more MP
Elemental Seal
Conserve MP

/SMN offers:

More MP
Auto Refresh.

Mainly the /SMN here is fine because /BLM is half its power(healing power is differnet, hence /WHM is ALWAYS viable for mages). Elemental and Dark is half, so ulitility spells are useful here, and why /SMN is ok too.

[Roogle]

Black Mage is almost always subbed with White Mage. It's very odd to see a Black Mage that does not sub White Mage.

The game does not have diverse mage classes, as there are only four. You really MUST choose to sub another mage class, so you might as well go with White Mage. Summoner would work if the summons wouldn't be half-leveled. Mage classes aside from White Mage do not sub well. If you're White Mage with a Black Mage subjob, you won't be casting offensive spells in the battle because they won't damage. If you're White Mage with a Summoner subjob, you won't be summoning avatars during battle because they won't damage. If you're White Mage with Red Mage subjob, you're... uh, not going to be anything besides healing because you'll get half your spells back and then even more weakened Black Mage spells.

[Citizen Bleys]

Is there any particular reason that it would be a bad idea to do WHM/THF in order to facilitate gil farming? (I know you don't get Steal for the subjob, but you do get Gilfinder, since that's a passive ability)

I'm eventually going BRD/WHM, but I'll need to do an intermediary stage to get my current WHM from lv 18 to lv 30. Although this still means I'll be able to do 60 straight levels as a bard without having to pause to level a subjob, which will be nice.

The BLM MP boost sounds nice, but if I were really that concerned about MP, I'd have chosen Taru instead of Elvaan.

[Lionx]

Why is it always subbed? Because it gives the most flexibility and optimizes the BLM to adapt. Wheras SMN and RDM are limited and are nagging 5 other people down.

WHM/BLM just like a RDM in typical parties, do NOT nuke. I only nuke if situation is stable and only on magic bursts like RDM and DRK where i can easily surpass the resists.

SMNs at low lvls do not really use Avatars anyway, only group buff and leave and then heal more often until the high lvls where their potential really shines. So not much there.

The point is this: Your main job is your job. I aint inviting a WHM to nuke, thats stupidity, your subjob is to SUPPORT your main job. Its support job to beging with, check it. The sub is to provide ultility and help you optimize your main job. If you dont wanna heal and nuke for crap do BLM/WHM and only heal in dire circumstances. Dont do WHM/BLM and nuke. Simple.




Is there any particular reason that it would be a bad idea to do WHM/THF in order to facilitate gil farming? (I know you don't get Steal for the subjob, but you do get Gilfinder, since that's a passive ability)

Ok there seems to be a misconception here, you can get all the abilites of your sub up to that lvl EXCEPT the two hour like Perfect Dodge. So yes you CAN steal so long as you are over lvl 10 and ur sub is lvl 5.

I recommend you do it unless your far away and is lvl 34+, Warp is super useful. Else spend CP on an instant warp scroll(which every melee should have).

Bleys if your going to go a caster job, and as an Elvaan, you are going to have to worry about MP especially as a WHM. The minute your out of MP, a BLM without a /WHM or a RDM might be able to hold on a bit, but basically the minute you run out of MP, its an uphill battle for the most part. Mages especially other than Taru NEED to worry about MP as they dont have as much as taru, but taru have alot so thats why i focus on stat bonuses. Trust me, you will want MP+ Gear if your a WHM Elvaan.


Now an alternative to WHM/BLM is WHM/BRD AFTER lvl 50 because of Ballad. Get a Dark Staff, sing just before battle ends or before battle and then rest with the DarkStaff to optimize MP recovery without a BRD or RDM availible.

[Roogle]

If you're Mithra or Hume, you don't really need to work on MP that much, either—you chose Elvaan, though, so, yeah, you will need to get +MP gear if you want to be a mage.

Subbing BRD works in very rare cases. I know a very nice girl that is a DRG/BRD, and we are at high levels (60+). She subbed BRD because she was sick of missing with her DRG, and she can cast a song on herself to increase her accuracy. She also helps the mages out just a little bit with her ballad.

In the end, what you sub as a White Mage depends on what you want and what would benefit your party as a whole. Nobody is going to NOT invite you at higher levels because you subbed RDM instead of BLM or something like that, because finding healers or support is very difficult, but would you rather have limited spellcasting abilities to attack the enemy with (Black Mage) or be able to heal and further support your party, as you're already doing, with White Mage?

And by limited, I mean very limited. Anything that deals damaged skillwise, subbed, will do next to no damage at all. You cannot expect to cast Fire II as a White Mage and do any damage at all.

[Lionx]

Allot of Mithra and Hume still get +MP, reserve MP is always good.

DRG/BRD is the suck, you get half the power for the Madrigal because of no instruments and its halved and only one song at a time, where as /WAR will help alot more. WHM/BRD for ballad works because healing is your primary, and ballad isnt affected by singing skill. There is a difference in DRG/BRD and a RDM or WHM/BRD.

O yea indeed, but i never said /BLM was to nuke right? I however did outdamage a RDM casting blizzard in a magic burst because of my naturally higher INT and it blew through Distortion Skillchian and it did 99 dmg max, while he did 34. The point is that /BLM has more ulitilty and all for the exp party. Warp, Escape, Conserve MP, and other goodies are there. /RDM doesnt have it and /BLM gives more MP. /SMN is basically MP only hence why it can work, i dont like it. /BLM gives you more room to work with and you really dont know Conserve MP until you get it, even if its a bit random. If i was to pick, WHM/BLM over most other subs, and healers a bit more eaiser to find higher lvls.WHM/BLM is not limited, in fact i think its more diversified.

EDIT:

Just a simplified version:

Whm/blm: conserve MP(too underestimated), Warp, Escape, Elemental Seal (it works on Paralyze/Slow/Silence too), and Sleep(saved parties ass so much especially in conjunction of Elemental Seal). Magic bursts not a big factor due to whm's lack of elemental magic, but on certain mobs and the right skillchain you can sheer right through them and do max dmg.

Whm/brd: ballad is like auto-refresh, but for everyone, not just you. Lower base MP though - you are giving up some of your max MP to ballad the rest of the party. Not bad if you got no refresher in the party, this is of course, post 50.

Whm/smn: higher base MP, auto-refresh. Summons pretty much useless, except maybe aerial armor. The level 30 /smn earrings are a nice perk. This is of course, post 50.

Whm/rdm: lots of spell duplication. Fast cast, dispel at high levels. Generally not as good as /blm.

[Garland]

I imagine people favor whm subs for their parties because whm's are hard to come by, and no matter what your job is, if you have white magic, you'll be stuck a back up healer. People who chose to be Red Mages did so for the class's well rounded versatility, and parties in game decided they'd be gimped white mages and refresh spammers. No melee or blm for them. I was in a party with a blm/whm combo, and he was forced to spend more of his time using the whm than the blm. My point, unless you want to be used as a handicapped white mage, I wouldn't sub it. It'll almost certainly be expected of you. Summoners should summon, red mages should do a little of everything. Black mages should nuke. They shouldn't all sub whm and heal instead.

[Lionx]

RDMs should

Refresh Cycle(thats what they are there for)>Enfeeble>BackupHeal>Magic Burst. Thats how its suppose to flow. They dont melee period.

And if your party makes you as a BLM/WHM heal more than anything...then your pt is #@$%ed up...you should only be healer in emergencies...Your pt sucks in that case.

SMNs cant bring anything at first so they heal, later on they do group buffs.

They dont have to, but it doesnt take away the fact that in experienced parties, the /WHM only comes to play on needed basis only. Try lvling more..the /WHM really benefits the entire party..the only reason to mainly heal is if you are in a static with no WHM and the RDM is busy..

[Garland]

I'm a whm/blm working towards summoner, actually. I was just suprised to find the blm/whm being told to back me up healing instead of being a blm. The same party booted a red mage for meleeing also, so who knows. I'll agree with you on all points, and just chalk it up to bad luck/bad party. It was Valkurm Dunes, if you're curious. God knows there isn't a survivable party in that wretched place.

[Roogle]

The DRG/BRD thing was just an example about subbing BRD, and she really doesn't miss that much, so it can't be all that bad. It doesn't really hurt anyone or detract from the party that much.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply that if you have BLM as your sub when you're a White Mage means you're going to try to nuke; I meant something else, but I can't even remember. :p

Because I am a Black Mage, a White Mage having Warp or Escape doesn't really matter to me because I can cast Escape and Warp II them when the party is disbanding. Because a White Mage doesn't really do anything besides heal, the subjob isn't that important as it would be, for, say, a Paladin, who is almost forced to have Warrior as a subjob and would probably be ignored if he didn't have one. In an ideal party, I would want the White Mage to have a Summoner subjob; I can regen MP quickly, but once the White Mage runs out, the chain is over, so, the more MP, the better.

Just as an example, there is a White Mage on some server that has NO subjob and he is level 73. His EXP note reads something like, "No subjob, if that is okay, please invite..." in Japanese.

[Citizen Bleys]

There seems to be a misconception: I'm not going WHM/BRD, I'm going BRD/WHM when I hit lv 30, and as matters stand (on account of the advice given here) WHM/THF from 18-30.

I think that BRD/WHM will have more to offer a party than WHM/BRD, since bards are (or at least seem) a lot more rare.

[Flying Mullet]

There seems to be a misconception: I'm not going WHM/BRD, I'm going BRD/WHM when I hit lv 30, and as matters stand (on account of the advice given here) WHM/THF from 18-30.

I think that BRD/WHM will have more to offer a party than WHM/BRD, since bards are (or at least seem) a lot more rare.
Agreed. I never see many bards.

Of course I play a white mage because they seem to be in high demand for parties and I don't see much point of playing an online game if I'm not going to party and chat, so playing a warrior or black mage like everyone else doesn't help me get into parties.

That said I think that a combination of a white mage and bard would be very unique and highly sought after.

[Citizen Bleys]

Well, most bards have whm subbed, but I still think it would be a fun class to play.

[Lionx]

Well Garland i will say Valkurm Dunes is evil...once you get above 30, it gets way better. But the BLM/WHM should backup heal when NEEDED to...they shouldnt exclusively do that unless theres a pretty good reason to.

Roogle about the WHM/BLM, theres not going to be a BLM there for you all the time, and we need a substitiute, so another Sleep or Escape really doesnt hurt the party. Conserve MP is also pretty nice, i casted Haste(40MP) with using only 10MP once, and god that was SWEET. And at lvl 50, WHMs and BLMs opt for the DarkStaff(800K on my server), which gives +10 MP per heal tick, so that will help more.

WHM/THF isnt useful at all...just sub BLM, lvl it to 15 and dump it if you dont pursue it anymore, and just recycle old gear for it.

/WHM on bard is that because status heals always heal no matter what, and their MP isnt that important, so they can Curaga easy. ^^ sweet BRDs. WHM/BRD is ok if you got no MP regen person above 50.

The demands for parties are like this AFTER lvl 41.

RDM>BRD>BLM>PLD>WHM

Then at 55

BRD>RDM>BLM>PLD>WHM

As you can see WHM loses a bit of steam after lvl 30 and starts to get a bit less after 40. But they still have spells like RaiseII and teleports and status goodies that no one can replace as of yet. Also WAR and PLD and NIN get more invites, because many players lvl WAR to 30(or 37 max) and then switch to another melee job, hence tanks are rare to find and they get easy parties later. But like the WHM, tanks can fill only one spot in the party.

[Roogle]

Yeah, I don't really know what parties are like without Black Mages because I'm a Black Mage. :p

[Citizen Bleys]

Strange to see PLD so low...I leap at the chance to play in a party with a PLD tank. They're awesome at keeping hate, and have both high def and cure magic.

[Lionx]

Yeah, I don't really know what parties are like without Black Mages because I'm a Black Mage.

You will when you lvl your sub :D I was so spoiled as a WHM that when i lvled BLM for subbing, i had a hard time finding a healer and got bit by WHM shortage in Shakrami Maze XD


Strange to see PLD so low...I leap at the chance to play in a party with a PLD tank. They're awesome at keeping hate, and have both high def and cure magic.

PLD is actually not that low..there are only 3 other tank jobs, NIN and WAR, and NIN is situational because its dependant on the mob if it does Double Attack on your Utsesumi. Compared to MNK, THF, DRK, SAM, DRG, and occasionally WAR...the PLD always comes out first if you need a tank because as said, mainly when you go higher lvl...theres a shortage of tanks, and most PLDs, NINs, and WARs are already in parties, and most likely as tanks. So while it may seem like its low, its really not low at all. Its pretty damn high.

Cure=Best hate keeper with Flash. PLDs are desired for this fact..but keep in mind what your fighting, if its something like beetles NINs are better because Blink nulls all so long as the monster doesnt hit twice per turn...PLDs are great over all as tanks, and can hold just about anything, WARs are versitle, dmg dealing or tanking, never as great as their NIN and PLD counterparts...but can hold their own.

O BTW...for those of you that think WHMs suck later...when you lose like 2K exp from a death...it doesnt seem so sucky to have WHMs have RaiseII on your now does it? :p

[Ouch!]

Since we're getting into more than just the black mage and subjobs, I might throw in a question of my own.

I'm playing a red mage at the current time, and I know I will sub black mage when the time comes. However, my dilemma comes into play when I seek and advanced job. I know I want to be a summoner, and though I have run into very few of them, I intend to play as a SMN/RDM. I know it has its disadvantages, but I would like to have both a bit of white and black magic. It’ll definitely become more useful at higher levels, but I think it could be difficult at first. I’ve run into one SMN/RDM, and he said it was working wonderful for him, and he was at level 13.

What I’m wondering about is exactly how effective it will be, especially at higher levels. I don’t want to be stuck as a secondary healer as a SMN/WHM at early levels. I’m also considering SMN/BLM if the first choice doesn’t work out very well.

[Lionx]

SMN/RDM better than SMN/BLM but from a lvl 13 person...dont just go in and say its good, because ANY sub works the first 20 lvls, drop off the next ten to 30, then suck horribly. I would say /RDM would work for a bit(even if you get CureII like 6 lvls later -.-), but in the end your Enfeeble and Elemental skills are going to be halved if its capped, and therefore going to do crap dmg, not to mention its lower than what /BLM has(and no that wont work as well either.). /WHM helps alot more with more MP, and better spells like status cures and Curaga in bad situations. WHM is a mage sub's choice if your not already WHM.