Euro 2004

[Doc Sark]

I'm really looking forward to spending most of june with a beer in my hand in front of the football. Can't wait for Englands opener on June 13th. It should be an awesome game against France and I fancy us to nick it. Steven Gerrard will be key for us. He is arguably the best player in the squad at the moment. COME ON ENGLAND!!!!

[Polaris]

Come on Portugal!!!!!!

[gokufusionss1]

we will win as long as Stevie G is treated like the god his is and nicky butt is locked in a cuboard so he can't play.

[Breine]

COME ON DENMARK! :D

[Rostum]

Get a life.

*is Australian*

[jrgen]

I couldn't care less for this.
Sweden is going to lose anyway.

[Doc Sark]

Get a life.

You'll understand the excitement when Oz qualifies for a major tournament.

Sweden looked good against Portugal the other day, they did beat them. A love Rui Jorge own goal in the 86th. Beaut.

[Burtsplurt]

I'll try to watch as much as I can. Don't have a clue who will win - I don't really follow football much any more - but I can guarantee that it won't be England!

[Doc Sark]

That's what we like, positivity. We're as good as any other team in the tournament, no reason for us not go all the way.

[Cz]

We're as good as any other team in the tournament

That's true. No wait, it's not.

Let's face it, our goalkeeper is hardly world class, we have no proper defensive cover (centre or full backs). Lose a defender through injury or suspension and we're screwed. No matter how much Sven experiments, we still don't have a reliable left winger, and none of our strikers have shown anything like their past form.

I'm not saying that we definitely won't win, just that we'll need some luck and/or top-notch performances to do so.

[gokufusionss1]

but look at the midfield!!!!!!!!!

[Doc Sark]

That's true. No wait, it's not.

Let's face it, our goalkeeper is hardly world class, we have no proper defensive cover (centre or full backs). Lose a defender through injury or suspension and we're screwed. No matter how much Sven experiments, we still don't have a reliable left winger, and none of our strikers have shown anything like their past form.

Bull. There are only two solid goalkeepers in the entire tournament. Kahn and Buffon. On his day James is as good as anyone else and I have never seen him howl in an England shirt, in fact his marvellous save at 0-0 against Turkey at the Stadium of Light is one of the reasons we are going to Portugal.

We don't need a left winger. Diamond formation dear boy. If you have been watching Steven Gerrard lately you will know that he has been drifting down the left recently, scoring and creating goals for Liverpool. Playing on the left side of the diamond will not be a problem for him, he is legendary at the moment.

Defensive cover is nowhere near as bad as you make out. Ledley King is a solid centre half and Jamie Carragher would run through a wall for the cause, he is flexible and can play anywhere in the back four well. He is experienced at the highest level and a credit to the squad besides I very much doubt Sol or John Terry, the best two centre halves in the country IMO, will end up injured or suspended.

As for full backs, what do you think Wayne Bridge, Phil Neville, Owen Hargreaves, Jamie Carragher and Kieron Dyer are for. Full back cover. They all are seasoned pros.

Owen has hit form lately, he has been injured a lot this year which has been bad for him but he is still a world class striker and ALWAYS performs for his country, his strike rate is testament to this. Rooney will shine, no doubt. Heskey and Vassel can do a job for us. There is no denying that Heskey and Owen are the most effective English strike force at the moment, however I can see that changing quickly as Rooney matures.

And like Gokufusions says, our midfield is epic. Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes and Butt are first choice, but we have got Coles little box of tricks to unleash, as well as the prolific Lampard, the solid, versatile Hargreaves and the pacey Dyer. We are as good as any other team in the tournament, its all about pulling together and showing some of that English fighting spirit.

C'MON ENGLAND!

[Cz]

There's some good points there. But you're relying on a best case scenario.

Two solid goalkeepers? What about Casillas? Kech? Hedman? They're nothing spectacular, but they get the job done. Still, you could say the same of James, so I'll let this one pass.

As for defensive cover, Ledley King is largely untested at international level, and Carragher's England form has been nothing worth noting. Hargreaves and Dyer aren't full backs, and not one of the players you mentioned is a solid right-back.

Still, this isn't a problem, provided that our first team is up to scratch. right?

The fact is, when up against good opposition, we can't play how we like. Ashley Cole and Gary Neville, who provide a lot of width to the team, can't do so if they're pinned back by decent wingers (Jesper Gronkjaer did this to Cole in the Champions League, and it effectively turned the tide of the game). Sol and Terry are solid, so no problems there.

And this 'epic' midfield. Most likely, Sven's going to make Scholes do all the forward running. Poor old Gerrard will be stuck playing a bit-part, instead of the starring role he deserves. Sven's insistence on keeping Scholes in the side is rather irritating, as he's been unable to duplicate his outstanding club form for his country. Then look at our options down the left. Cole's 'tricks' come at the expense of decent passing play, Hargreaves has show little of the flair needed to play on the left in any of his previous games, and Lampard and Dyer, while brilliant, will doubtless be under-used.

Don't ge me wrong, I hope you're right. I just don't see us performing consistently enough to win it. We are, as you say, as good as any other team in the tournament. On paper, that is. In reality, we never seem to show enough of that 'fighting spirit'.

I hope they prove me wrong. :)

[Doc Sark]

Unfortunately you are wrong. About a lot of stuff. Dyer started out as a full back for Ipswich, he is a versatile player, as is Hargreaves, he has played right back for club and country in the past. As has Phil Neville. All can be used at right back, and all are solid. Particularly Phil Neville. There are plenty of solid goalkeepers but there is a large gulf in quality between them and Buffon and Kahn. Hedman???? He is not in the same league as these two, or David James for that matter.

Carraghers form has been nothing worth noting???? Do you watch any football? He has been outstanding for liverpool since he came back from his broken leg which is why he is in the squad. Sven could have easily gambled with the 80% fit Southgate or taken someone like Upson or Wes Brown, but he didn't he chose the outstanding Carragher. He doesn't ooze flamboyance and creativity granted but he gets the job done efficiently every time. It doesn't matter if Ledley King is largely untested at international level, its unlikely he will play at all, but I am confident he has the ability to perform well if needs be. He showed this against Sweden. I was 16 at France '98, when Michael Owen and David Beckham were largely untested at international level, well we didn't look back after bringing them in against Colombia.

Gerrard will not be playing a bit part. He forces himself upon a game and makes things happen. This man is pivotal to how England perform at the championships, and when players like Steven Gerrard are on form, teams can win tournaments. You only have to watch him play for proof. He is the best player in our squad. And pre tournament, he is amongst the best going.

You have a point about Ashley Cole in the Champions League, I really don't rate him at all personally and would much rather see the more orthodox Wayne Bridge start at left back. At least this shows you do watch some football. Fortunately for England we will have Beckham and Gerrard covering our full backs unlike Arsenals two defensively lazy wingers. Don't think for a minute anyone in that England midfield will shirk their defensive duties. Our squad is probably the most versatile squad in the tournament.

Sven won't make Scholes do ALL the forward running as you suggest. Becks and Gerrard will cut inside and as they have shown in previous matches there will be rotation and sharing of duties between the three, also Wayne Rooney will undoubtedly drop off of Michael Owen to provide a link up from midfield. I'm sorry but Joe Coles passing game is fine, show me one piece of evidence of it not being and I'll show you ten to say otherwise. Hargreaves won't be used as a winger. We don't use wingers. He will be cover for Nicky Butt in the holding role, if he performs well in the warmups, he may well start there!

As for not showing fighting spirit! Germany '90, Holland '96, Germany '96, Italy '98, Argentina '98, Germany 2000, Germany 2001, Argentina 2002, Slovakia 2003, Turkey 2003, Turkey 2004. When it really matters (except against Brazil) this team pours its heart and sould into a match. Realistically, how many competetive matches have we lost under Sven Goran Eriksson? Answer: 1. To Brazil, that's not bad going in my book. Also, another interesting point to note, we have never lost a competetive match with Steven Gerrard in the team, in fact we have only lost one match in total with Stevie G, and that was to Denmark. He has over 20 caps, that is a quality record. Also Sven Goran Eriksson holds the record for most games unbeaten as England manager. If you're looking for consistency then look no further. The fact is, 9.5 times out of 10 when England have to perform, they do themselves proud, win or lose (except against Brazil).

[Cz]

Come on, Dyer hasn't played as a full back in years, and certainly not for the national side. Phil Neville is little more than a utility player at the moment. He can play in a variety of positions, but not all of them well.

Note that I said Carragher's England form, not his Liverpool form. The national side works very differently from the Reds', and Carragher may not be able to play at his best under Sven's set up.

As for Owen and Beckham having been largely untested, they'd played in numerous friendlies, back when friendlies were taken more seriously, and players were able to spend more than 45 minutes on the pitch. Plus, they were putting in outstanding performances in the league, too. Tottenham's defence has been a shambles this season. Granted, that's not entirely King's fault, but he has to take some of the blame.

My point about Scholes was that there are far better options for Sven. Rather than have Gerrard and Beckham do his work for him, Lampard could take up the attacking midfielder role, leaving Gerrard and Beckham with more freedom to do other jobs of the pitch. There's nothing wrong with Joe Cole's passing, it's just that he doesn't do enough of it, and loses possesion needlessly on occasion.

You're right, we don't use wingers. I was referring to the position wide on the left side of midfield, which is often called incorrectly by pundits the left wing. Some of that has rubbed off on me. Sorry about that.

You can't take a few good matches and call it fighting spirit. What about Macedonia, or Greece? These are teams that we should have beaten easily, but somehow struggled against. Turkey '04, Germany '01, Argentina '02. None of those are examples of fighting spirit. They were simply good performances, where the team had the confidence it neede to pay well. Germany '00 we simply fell apart. The fact is, when this team is disheartened, it plays poorly. An opener against France is not exactly a confidence booster, is it? When we're 1-0 against the best that Europe has to offer, that's when we need our fighting spirit, and England just give up too easily when they're on the ropes. Sure there are exceptions, but if we can't perform in just a single game of our Euro 2004 campaign, it could all be over. We need consistent top-class performances from every player on the pitch, and I can't see it happening.

Still, I hope they can manage it.

[Doc Sark]

Which Germany 2000 game did you watch? We won 1-0. We fell apart against Portugal, but that was 4 years ago. We are a different side now.
There was the unfortunate display in the WCQ, where yes we did fall apart. That wasn't the game I was using as an example though.

Ledley King has been misused by David Pleat this season playing in a central midfield role. When he plays centre back alongside Richards they look alright. It's not his fault he is surrounded by morons.

Actually Michael Owen had only played 2 full internaitonals before going in to France '98. He made three sub appearances too. I was wrong about Beckham he had made 15.

We went in at half time 1-0 down against Slovakia last year. All was looking pretty bleak. We come back and win the game with Owen getting both the goals, cause Sven switched to the diamond at half time. How can you differentiate between fighting spirit and a good performance. It's one and the same thing. Sure we struggled against greece and macedonia, but we still came out on top of the group and comfortable qualifiers on both occasions. Fighting spirit isn't about just 90 minutes of football, its about having the will and the ability to endure two years of qualifying against quality opposition and coming out on top. In '98 we went to Italy and had to come away with a point to top the group, and against all odds we managed it. In Turkey, we overcame the immensely oppressive atmosphere, we even picked ourselves up after Beckhams penalty miss and got a point which was all we needed. It showed courage and determination. We went behind twice to Macedonia and Greece, but we still got something out of it, granted we should have beaten them both at home, but we didn't lose, we picked it up and at the end of the day, are Macedonia in Euro 2004? Did Greece qualify for World Cup 2002. No. Teams hiccup, look at France at World Cup 2002. Look at Italy in the same tournament. With the exception of Euro 2000 (and lets face it Portugal, Germany and Romania in a group was no picnic), we haven't been knocked out of a major tournament by lesser opponents for a very long time. If you don't go into matches against big teams with fighting spirit you will be annihalated. Its all about who wants it more and thats fighting spirit. We beat the Germans 5-1 in Munich! That is an amazing performance. We held the Argentinans off us for 70 odd minutes in 2002 and we only had half a squad!!! When was the last time we were 1-0 down in a competetive match against the best Europe had to offer? Let me think, oh yeah Munich 2001, what was the final score, ummmm 5-1 England.

Gerrard and Beckham won't be doing Scholes' work for him, the theory behind the diamond is that you play with a three pronged attacking midfield, hence they share the duties. You can't bitch about Ledley King having a lack of experience and that Jamie Carragher has never performed for England if you want to replace Scholes with Lampard. Lampard, while being outstanding for club has yet to produce the goods for his country. I want him too, cause he has been fantastic this season.

It doesn't matter if Dyer hasn't played RB for ages, he most likely won't have to, but you said there was no cover, I have demonstrated that there is plenty. Jamie Carragher is prime cover for right back, and when has he performed badly for England?

An opener against France is just what we need! They are beatable. And we can beat them, in fact I think we will. That will set the bar for us for the rest of the tournament. There is no country in the world that England can't beat at football, except Sweden for some reason.#


We need consistent top-class performances from every player on the pitch, and I can't see it happening.

I agree with you on that. But this is the prerequisite for any team hoping to win a tournament of this magnitude.

[Mikztsu]

Can't wait for it either...I hope Russia or Germany will win. :D

[Cz]

I was talking about the World Cup Qualifier, but that's a good example of what I'm talking about. In the tournament match, we went 1-0 up. and had the confidence to finish the match strongly. In the WCQ, we went 1-0 down, and lost all hope.

In my opinion, fighting spirit is the ability to play well when you're behind, which is something Enlgand often fail to do. A good performance is self-explanitory, but fighting spirit is the ability to overcome a poor spell and regain some control over the match. England, when they start well, are an excellent side. But when they're on the ropes, they find it very difficult to work their way back in to a game.

When we beat the Germans 5-1, they were hardly 'the best that Europe had to offer'. That German side (and the current one, too) is a mere shadow of its former self. However, you are correct. That was one occasion on which we didn't allow ourselves to be defeated by low morale. If we could do that more often we'd be world-beaters, but right now I don't see us winning any major tournaments.

I see your points about the midfield, as well as our defensive cover, and although I still think that you're a little optimistic, you've given me a little bit more faith in the side. I still don't think we're world beaters, but if the team can live up to their potential, they very well could be.

[Mattokenzi]

*gets out cheerleader stuff*
Give me a E-N-G-L-A-N-D whats that spell
England
http://www.2dtv.co.uk/picture/england_thumb.jpg
Come on Beckham :D :D :D

[Sage]

Come On England!!!!!! :D

We're going to get destroyed by france though, the bastards...

[Doc Sark]

Well I'm glad you've got a bit more faith in the boys now!