Red Mage ---> Dark Knight? Good idea or no?

[FleshMask]

Is it a good idea to use RDM for a sub job and then DRK?

I know it wouldn't be very good for parties...

but would it be good for solo work?

Would would you recommend...?

I would like to carry myself for a little bit... is RDM magic and meele a good idea to do so?

also I think it's bad manners for someone to view your stats out of blue.... without asking

Does anyone agree? Or is it wrong for me to be angry?

[UltimateSpamGrover]

I think RDM/DRK is better than DRK/RDM, but thats just me

[Citizen Bleys]

I have one char that's a WAR now, planning to go DRK when the time is ripe.

Problem is, DRK/BLM is a good mix, but BLM/WAR (in the mean time) sucks balls. Maybe going RDM/WAR to level 10 and then BLM/RDM to 20 is the way to go; Once I'm up over 15 with BLM, I can just go WAR/BLM until I'm ready to go DRK.

I dunno. Feedback? It's not just you that's wondering.

[Lionx]

DRK/RDM for solo? Hmmm...i would say its plausible, but i would think that DRK/WHM is better than /RDM and heres why i think so:

/WHM offers:

- na spells, these spells remove abnormalities that you have like poison or paralyze and are indespensible when you somehow get statused. As a WAR on my other char those things are truly a bitch ><

- Divine Seal, it offers more Curing potential no?

-You learn your magic way faster than your /RDM sub.

If you are going WEAK monsters a /BLM is nice for Warp and -aga spells for AoE killing yup.



As for RDMs meleeing and casting, they are casters first and melee secondary, as a RDM you have to Enfeeble, Refresh(if you ever plan to get RDM above 41), and to Magic burst and back up heal, and also Dispel(if you ever lvl it above 33). You do your mage duties and melee only on non AoE mobs(aka Goblins with bomb toss or Flies with Cursed Sphere) if it doesnt hinder your magely duties.

Examining is dependant on the person, if you dont like it go to Config and shut off the thing that shows it everytime someone examines you, simple..

As for Bley's plan the only part i dont agree is the WAR/BLM part, you do your best even when you lvl a sub, so lvl your WAR to 30, then raise your sub up the magely way.

If your going for Exp parties, disregard the first part of the post because thats SOLO only. Parties are DRK/WAR and DRK/THF mostly. Special circumstances are DRK/SAM. But the mainstream is DRK/WAR(for power) up to 60, and then DRK/THF (now that you got so much, SATA it onto the real tank and then make sure hate is on the tank) from there.

[Citizen Bleys]

But while I'm levelling WAR to 30, I'll need a subjob. Considering that I plan to go DRK, WAR/BLM seems like good practice...even if it isn't a common configuration.

[Mikztsu]

But while I'm levelling WAR to 30, I'll need a subjob. Considering that I plan to go DRK, WAR/BLM seems like good practice...even if it isn't a common configuration.

Bleys is right. The first subjob doesn't matter much, if you're going for advanced sub job and not gonna use that subjob afterwards.

My example:

I wanted Thf/ninja. I "had" to level my warrior sub job (http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=job&v=56) before my thief was level 30.

Guess what? I stopped leveling my warrior after it hit level 8. Why? Simply put: waste of time. No one ever complained to me of my low warrior sub. Everything I needed was provoke. I got parties just as well as anyone else, I really see no problem before level 30. It really would've been waste of time (http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=time&v=56) to level my warrior to something like level 20, as I never use it after I got my ninja.

Time (http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Time&v=56) is money (http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=money&v=56) in this game, and don't waste it in something you don't need. Use it more wisely.

[Jalbrean]

I didn't level my monk sub past 12 since my warrior was stopping at 30 for Dragoon class.

I wish I had leveled it up more, because I still need to get my warrior to 37 (for Dragoon sub), and now that i've played more I simply refuse to play with a subjob that's not going to be half my level on evens. Now I have to level Mnk, and War to get where I want it. Egh

Don't even get me started on my obvious noobness when I went through as a warrior with a sword and shield, and now that I realize I should of been going through with a greataxe i'm far too high with a 0 in great axe and it's embarrassing. ;(

[Mikztsu]

Yeah, I wouldn't use sub that's under half of my level anymore either. But I find it acceptaple on your "first" 30 levels. ;-)

[Dante]

Being a 33DRK/WAR, I would like to say that solo'ing as DRK/WAR alone is more tough than WAR/MNK due to the low defense. Going DRK/RDM would probably further hinder you without adding too many benefits. It would give a minor magic boost, but in all honesty, DRKs use a whole lot less magic than you think, which is why DRK/BLM is less accepted than a melee sub.

Subbing WHM isn't exactly too great either, it may help you solo a bit more, but DRKs can naturally heal themselves with a Drain - Aspir combo. BLM would increase the effectiveness of your offensive spells, but they would never be up to par with a BLM/WHM or a RDM, and it would nerf your melee potential.

Subbing DRK doesn't have very much potential, doesn't add enough bonuses to make it worthwhile.

Generally, play however you feel, just remember that parties will invite the people who have the most potential first. A DRK/WAR would most likely always be chosen over a DRK/BLM or DRK/RDM. Yes, it's ridiculous how much people stress over your sub (My best friends a RDM/THF and gets hassled about it so much, he's decided to lvl BLM to sub) But that's the way the FFXI community is. Just remember to have fun ;o)

[Ouch!]

I say check the thief sub-job thread for all my opinions and the opinions of others as far as red mage subs go.

[Lionx]

Its not that ridiculous...think about it, if you were searching for a RDM, do you want one that will be the best or somewhat good? A RDM/WAR to the person looking at the search, will not know what to think, it would be a gamble in their eyes to invite someone like that. As Mitktzu said, time is money and taking someone that is subpar also hinders you. How many WAR/WHMs are there that rest after battle losing TP or not provoke....too often than not. A bad sub usually shows some person's playstyle..

DRK's defense isnt THAT horrible...its just when they throw their DEF away in favor for more attack then it starts to suck. If you look at most of the armours, WAR PLD and DRK can use the heaviest, therefore their DEF isnt that bad "Initially".

And its never a waste of time to lvl a sub, especially WAR, if you think about it, just about every melee class needs WAR as a sub if nothing else, THF uses it, PLD NEEDs it, SAM DRK and DRG too. There are many people that switch their job around after seeing that it doesnt fit their playstyle, so lvling WAR is never a waste. Lvling a sub shouldnt be a chore necessarily, its only a chore if you make it that way. I am pretty sick of WARs using polearms because they are going DRG and therefore hindering renkei's where if he had a GAxe we could have easily done a three man renkei. Underlvled subs also show me how much you put effort into your job. To a party leader, why do we have to pick someone that is not showing their full potential?

Having fun at the expense of 5 other people isnt that great is it? Some may get a kick out of a RDM/THF but what about the other people looking at you using Sneak attack and doing mediocore dmg? When you can do your job and hit the big exp chain #5 instead with something else as a sub(like poison...no WHM and yes there will be times with no WHMs, and you sub THF..there goes downtime on your PLD...or Conserve MP that will cut your MP cost in half occasionally that makes an impact of the RDM's refresh)?


Being a 33DRK/WAR, I would like to say that solo'ing as DRK/WAR alone is more tough than WAR/MNK due to the low defense. Going DRK/RDM would probably further hinder you without adding too many benefits. It would give a minor magic boost, but in all honesty, DRKs use a whole lot less magic than you think, which is why DRK/BLM is less accepted than a melee sub.

Subbing WHM isn't exactly too great either, it may help you solo a bit more, but DRKs can naturally heal themselves with a Drain - Aspir combo. BLM would increase the effectiveness of your offensive spells, but they would never be up to par with a BLM/WHM or a RDM, and it would nerf your melee potential.


I think this really depends on what you are soloing...are you soloing EP or TW for money? Or are you taking on an Even or Tough for the hell of it..? O_o

I dont find it acceptable to use something subpar with 5 other people that will affect them...while anything can go under 30 theres a reason why many people label Valkurm, Qufim, or Kazham areas to be hell holes...and as someone else said...how hard is it to lvl a sub? I party with some of my friends or ask a few ppl around my lvl of the sub to party with me...and it goes by real faster. Its not hard...but never once would i find a WHM in lvl one starter gear and a STAFF that gives no bonus at all only Curing once in a while, and never buffing or curing status at high lvls. And yet i find one under 30..only excuse for what she had? Poor...very lame. Is this acceptable? Or does the anything under 30 works here when you look at yourself with decent gear at least(i dont expect you to have leaping boots or +1 gear all the time, at least decent), i would feel cheated. That WHM=Exp leech.

Sorry if it seems i am rambling...but its just if you think its a waste of time to lvl a sub, some people (and i sometimes do...i dont mind a few lvls underlvl so long as its not WAR30/MNK5...thats just lazy) will think its a waste of time to invite you unless they NEED you and invite as a last ditch effort.

[Rostum]

You say you don't really need an important subjob for the first 30 levels. You are wrong, I can tell you that people that are building up parties will be going for a WAR/MNK or a MNK/WAR or a THF/WAR over a WAR/RDM; it actually happened a couple of days ago for a party I was building up. I asked everyone what they thought of a RDM/WAR and they said no deal and that they'd leave if I invited him.

So in conclusion, sure you can try it out, but you will get no party invites and find it hard to get to level 30. Also a underleveled subjob, even during the levels of 20-30 is a bad idea and also gets looked at when people are deciding who to invite.

You don't solo for long, and you will eventually need a party to get ANYwhere, so I wouldn't go for some crazy job combination for levels upto 30.

Lionx is right.

[Mikztsu]

I also agree with lionx, but in my case I felt subbing that warrior would've been waste of time. I was gonna go with ninja anyway and completely forget about my warrior after hitting level 30 and getting ninja. I don't think I need it anymore, and in my case...I feel glad I didn't put more time and effort on warrior.

[Garland]

Dark Knight/ White Mage is better at what you'd be going for in your Dark Knight / Red Mage combo, in my oppinion. The only thing a Red Mage would have that a White Mage wouldn't are the En-Element spells. If you find those spells useful, then by all means, sub Redmage. Your Dark Knight already gets a slew of black magic spells, and Red Mage would be redundant for that aspect. The only new tricks a Red Mage would add are white magic spells, and White Mage gets more, sooner, and is better at casting them. En-Element spells typically don't add very much damage. In my experience, my White Mage's enfeebles aren't resisted so long as my enfeebling magic is up to par, despite not being as high, capped, as a Red Mage's.

As far as subjobs, I typically care more that a subjob is level-capped then that it's the cookie-cutter subjob everyone demands. People can be pretty anal about conforming to two year old Japanese class combo traditions in this game. If your levels are capped, and your gear is good, that says more about your desire to play well than whether your Warrior subs Monk or White Mage. Put the acceptable level of effort into your character, and I don't really care if you conform to the expectations of a few. You have to figure, there are only a handful of people that actually know why some combos are better than others. The other 1,000 complainers are just copycats trying to look elite.

[Lionx]

As far as subjobs, I typically care more that a subjob is level-capped then that it's the cookie-cutter subjob everyone demands. People can be pretty anal about conforming to two year old Japanese class combo traditions in this game. If your levels are capped, and your gear is good, that says more about your desire to play well than whether your Warrior subs Monk or White Mage. Put the acceptable level of effort into your character, and I don't really care if you conform to the expectations of a few. You have to figure, there are only a handful of people that actually know why some combos are better than others. The other 1,000 complainers are just copycats trying to look elite.

How is this true? If you look at a MNK/WHM fully capped and a MNK/WAR fully capped. You will see the damage difference that people look for in a MNK. With /WHM you get no melee advantage and subpar healing and limited MP pool. With WAR, you can Provoke to be Fuidama(SATA) partner, Berserk to maximize damage, and Double Attack which is CRUCIAL to the MNK's dmg over time. Compare some damage parsers with a MNK/WAR and a MNK/somethign without Double Attack, its much lower. Significantly i might add.

If your sub is good, then by all means that shows me that you know what you are doing, of course equipment matters and your playstyle, but your sub also shows me alot as well. Do not negate your subjob choice.

Now think about it...how is it something that the japanese made up? I read many arguments on different subs. I seen people do this and do that, and i seen field tests done on video to confirm things(even dynamics of Shell or how a monster gains TP). I even tried some of the stupidest things in beta. If it was something that the japanese made up on its own why are some people doing what they are doing? Its becuase numerous times it doesnt work out as good as say you sub something else. It has been proven for about 2 years it does better than another sub. I spend alot of time reading on how jobs work and then seeing them how they work in battle. Through all my lvls in Beta and Retail, the parties perform better are the cookie cutter ones. Not that i prefer them becuase they make me look elite(how can it look elite if so many other people are doing it? Elite are only a few handful of people. And have you even considered why you yourself call it elite?), or they are cookie cutter, but because they work the best. I am not confirming for the few, i am confirming for my party here.

I find it fun to see big huge numbers of dmg and exp and see that glittery chain #5 and push the party into an exp machine(of course with the usual talking and fun ^^). Its not fun when you are slow and its around 10K+ tnl. While it may be fun and fine for you to do whatever sub you want, its not that fine for me(and the party members) and you will see that there are right and wrong combinations for Exp parties. Eventually you will as mobs change and change again through lvls. Its not we are being anal(some ppl might be tho ><; ), its becuase we care for the party's well-being and their exp growth. We want max exp within the shortest ammount of time. Subbing the wrong sub WILL hinder people. So Garland i disagree in the fullest on whatever sub will work. If anything, subbing something that doesnt help out the party maximize its potential, isnt showing effort.

[Garland]

I never said any sub would work. I said I care more that the sub is properly levelled and your character properly equipped than whether your sub is the one people demand. I'm cookie cutter myself - a taru whm/blm. I just think that subjobs are meant to add diversity to characters. Reducing every job's subjob list to one or two seems to me to be defeating the purpose. Also on my list of things where players defeated the purpose are not letting Red Mages be the melee/mage hybrid they were meant to be, and reducing their entire list of tricks to refresh/convert/dispel/enfeeble. They have more varied abilities than almost any other class, and are reduced to a handful. Summoners that aren't allowed to be real summoners till level 70+ (who picked a Summoner class to be their whm subjob anyway). I think the high numbers you talk about are great, but not at the cost of keeping every last scrap of original thought "looking for group" in lower jeuno. Originality should be appreciated, so long as it's not completely worthless.

[Ouch!]

There's a big difference between originality and a galka whm/war. There are some real stupid choices. Though originality is a good thing, most things that are "original" aren't the best selections. Like Lionx said, the cookie-cutter set-ups are so common because they work. I don't believe you can tell me you'd rather take a blm/war than a blm/whm, even if the blm/war was 15/7 and the blm/whm was 15/6.

[Lionx]

If you want to be original do it so it wont waste my exp time. Thats all i got to say ><; Dont just think originality, its a party, not just you.

Its a Support job anyway, the subjob i never knew how it got there. But the purpose of it is not to diversify. RDMs were diversfied before. They did NOT have Refresh, Convert, Dispel and things like that. Before they were 1/4 of everything you want in a party member. Hence RDM=Worthless. Now with these abilities they fit a ROLE and into the support category and therefore invited.

A B in Sword is pretty damn good, just not at ITs. You can melee yes, but that will hinder every other person. MP=exp=time. You dont waste your MP healing yourself if you dont have to. They were meant to be Support, and they filled that role nicely. i DONT want a melee/mage hybrid that is subpar in everything. Plus have you seen a RDM? That handful, is too much of a handful to do as it is. You want to add more? The concept of a RDM in pure FF sense, does not work in an MMORPG and before those abilities were introduced it was shown that.

SMNers i agree the first 20ish lvls sucks, but you are building your power, then they are support and then they are power dmgers. SMN is not a perfect job, but it has a place now. And that is what matters, else no one invites.

That cost is nothing really when y ou look at your tnl and its like 37K tnl...you do not go out there to a hard to get exp place and waste time. You either lvl as good as you can or dont. The higher lvl you go, the less exp you gain per hour, it just digs at your time, and your montly fee and your fun too. Sorry but its true. You do your best for the party, i expect everyone else to do the same.

[Garland]

I got the term subjob, as well as many of my pet peaves about FFXI from the Gamefaqs FFXI message board. Anyhow, I wouldn't be a waste of someone's time. I'm the much worshipped Tarutaru Whm/Blm. My subjob is levelled beyond capped. I have every spell possible, and the spells of the levels I intend to hit in a party. My equipment, aside from a lack of Astral Rings, is pretty much top notch for my level. I eat pies and drink juice. I keep my abilities capped. The only time when our difference of oppinion on cookie-cutter importantness would come to factor, is if we were both invited to the same party. A party that you might decline because the party was full of less than optimal combinations, I would still give a try. I don't make my own parties because I don't need to, so noone would have to worry about my inviting them into a group of less than optimal players.

[Lionx]

Sorry if i sounded a bit rude...but really the point i am trying to make accross is that please try to pick a right sub and read up about it at least and try to make the party's life easier thats all i can ask. Decent Equips(Astral Rings are actually luxery items, i dont expect everyone to have em), good sub or at least a decent sub, and just do as well as you can is enough for me.

I actually do join up bad and no optimal parties(ones with no RDM or BRD, as long as its fun i guess). As said on the Wierd party threads thats one of em i went to. And also there are Parties that really piss me off and i am sure Omecle who i play with knows sometimes what we go through...WAR with full scale armour with nothing else and scythe? yup... It doesnt have to be optimal in terms of everything, but i like everyone to try to be as optimal as they can in what they do...and picking a good sub is important to help them do what they do. WAR/WHM? Did that once in beta...waste of my time -_-;;

As for subjob i think it came from importers before the game was here...you know translation errors. There isnt english translations so i thin they use subjob. But I am pretty darn sure when you change jobs it says Support Job..and its there to support and help you do your main job.