Is it Balamb administrations fault Seifer went to the darkside?

[Turk]

Quistis was an asshole to him and clearly showed that she respected and liked Squall more. Also remember that scene where Xu tells him off saying he'll never be a SeeD and there's that sort of foreboding, and he just doesn't say anything out of humiliation?

[Iceglow]

no seifer wanted to follow his romantic dream much more than being a SeeD he just saw a way to do that in SeeD he would have become a sorceresses knight asap even though as a SeeD he'd have been charged with killing her.

[Sir Bahamut]

Seifer was an ass and THEN he got scolded, not the other way around.
He deserved everything he got.

Remember he was an ass even back in the orphanage.

[Trumpet Thief]

Seifer was an ass and THEN he got scolded, not the other way around.
He deserved everything he got.

Remember he was an ass even back in the orphanage.

Albedo:*laughs maniacally* Actually, Seifer just wanted to be loved, but those bastards treated him like a lap dog. :cry:

Rubedo: Meh, I think it was both, really...

[Lord_Seymour]

Seifer had a big head, quistis what a freken cow to him cause he cut pretty squalls head and left a nasty scar, Xu was just pissed cause he didnt follow orders, Cid didnt really have a go at him that bad, cause he understood that he was anxious to prove himself the better of him and squall. What i think anyway.

[TasteyPies]

Siefer being told he woulnd't become a SeeD wasn't mean. He became too old to pass the seed exam. That was his last chance.

.....I think I read that on the computer in the classroom. Something about not being able to take the test after you are 18 or soemthing.

[Leene]

Quistis was an asshole to him
What?? :frust: :grumble:
I have to agree with Fallen Angel in everything he said..

[TheAbominatrix]

Siefer being told he woulnd't become a SeeD wasn't mean. He became too old to pass the seed exam. That was his last chance.

.....I think I read that on the computer in the classroom. Something about not being able to take the test after you are 18 or soemthing.

Yep. I cant remember if it was 18 or whatever, but once you hit a certain age, if you havent become a SeeD already then you have to leave Garden. Seifer messed up one his last try, and hence didnt get to become a SeeD. It was his own fault.

As for everyone 'picking on Seifer', I have mixed feelings about it. Seifer was a total ass to everyone. He went out of his way to be an ass to everyone. Squall was a total ass to everyone, but he didnt really go out of his way to do it. So, to the rest of Garden, Seifer was a jerk and Squall was really cool and 'misunderstood'. Annoying.

But either way, Seifer had it comin. Squall at least seems to follow orders, which is neccesary in an organization like SeeD, because if everyone starts going off on their own and doing whatever they feel like, bad things can happen.

Once Edea started stroking Seifer's ego (doesnt that sound wrong?) he was enamored of her, and he'd always been obsessed with the Sorceress/Knight deal anyway. It was just the right person, the right place, and the right time. Nobody's fault but Seifer's though, he knew better.

[Giga Guess]

I think it was a vicious circle, personally. It starts with Seifer's evidently rebellious behavior. The Garden obviously tried to crack down on it (Cid may have been lenient about it, but the Garden Staff, and thusly Norg, were shown to abhor such behavior, so I doubt this was the first time Siefer encountered this). As Seifer was restricted, be likely lashed out harded, and more agressively, which caused Norg and his cohorts to crack down harded. Round and round we go, until we reach the events that started FF8. My thoughts, anyways.

[DJZen]

Seifer should file one of those no personal responsibility lawsuits like the people who sued McDonald's because their food makes you fat.

[TheAbominatrix]

Seifer should file one of those no personal responsibility lawsuits like the people who sued McDonald's because their food makes you fat.

xD

[Turk]

Seifer should file one of those no personal responsibility lawsuits like the people who sued McDonald's because their food makes you fat.

What was the outcome of that?

[DJZen]

I forget, I think the plantiffs won though.

[Anaisa]

I think they contributed to Seifer going bad. They should of made him a seed. And if they had have done he would have been less likely to have joined Edea. And if there is a sequel to final fantasyVIII i want to see Seifer back in garden.

[Giga Guess]

Maybe if he was a SeeD he wouldn't have followed Edea. But then, maybe not. Remember his "romantic dream." Also, remember that Seed/Garden is a business, as well as a military operation. You can't afford to have someone as unruly as Seifer running amok. He plays hero, and he'd put everyone else at risk. My two cents.

[Anaisa]

I think Seifer running amok is a good thing. And i think him not always following orders is a good thing(especially when they come from Cid) Initiative is far more useful then obedience.

[Giga Guess]

Oh, don't get me wrong. That's why I never plan on enlisting. But in this case...even here, a free thinker is a good thing, but Seifer was just a rebel without a cause. And to clarify, someone who takes initiative is a good thing, but someone that's blindly running around for the sake of being a hero is another. It's a pity, really, cuz he could've been great, by my impression.

[TheAbominatrix]

Oh, don't get me wrong. That's why I never plan on enlisting. But in this case...even here, a free thinker is a good thing, but Seifer was just a rebel without a cause. And to clarify, someone who takes initiative is a good thing, but someone that's blindly running around for the sake of being a hero is another. It's a pity, really, cuz he could've been great, by my impression.

Agreed. Sometimes it's good to go with your gut and break orders... like when Seifer took the others up to the tower on the first mission. That was a smart thing to do, and helpful. And sometimes it's bad, like when Seifer burst into the tv broadcast. That was pretty dumb (made worse by Zell) and ruined things.

Part of being an effective soldier is knowing when to follow orders and when to think for yourself.

[Anaisa]

I don't think the getting Deling at the tv broadcast was a bad idea it was Zell that messed it up. But Seifer letting Deling go that was stupid.

[TheAbominatrix]

It was a terribly dumb thing to do, especially since the rest of them were handling it. Seifer put them all (and himself) at risk by doing such a thing. Zell did indeed contribute to that mess, but if Seifer hadnt showed up, things would have gone much smoother. The whole plan was ruined because of Seifer.

[Anaisa]

I don't think they were ever at risk as if i remember rightly there was only Deling and a few soldiers in there. Im sure they could have dealt with them easily enough.

[TheAbominatrix]

But Seifer didnt know how many were in there. He just rushed in, blowing everyone's cover and screwing up the plans the others had made. They wanted to do things as discreetly as possible so they could complete the mission (if I remember right, Rinoa wanted to announce something over the tv, I think the freedom of Timber) and have time to make it out before serious reinforcements showed. When Seifer burst in (on live tv), he alerted all the other soldiers out there to head for the tv station, because the president was in danger. Not at all discreet.

[Codak]

Sure seems like he followed his dreams.

Says a lot for all the other characters in the story, eh? :p

[Anaisa]

But Seifers plan was so much better. His plan storm the tv station and kill the president or at least take him hostage. Rinoas plan to make some announcement about the freedom of Timber?!

[TheAbominatrix]

His plan really wasnt that much better, but Im not saying Rinoa's was a brainstorm. Storming enemy strongholds by yourself is dumb, most especially when your allies are climbing the backstairs. He put them all in danger. Stealth is much better in these situations, and as I said already, he alerted every soldier around to their presence. It wouldnt be hard at all for the enemy to regain the station within 10 minutes and kill Seifer. Very dumb plan.

[Anaisa]

But if he knows his allies are on there way he knows he won't be fighting the enemy alone. And Rinoas plan was to appear on live tv and make an announcement. So people would be aware of her presence pretty quickly. And unless Rinoas announcement is very short she and the others would not have time to come and go without a fight.

[TheAbominatrix]

So because he knows a few other people are on the way he should risk their lives by telling hundreds of soldiers just how to find them? Not a bright thing to do.

And because they gain more time by being discreet, they would indeed have time for a quick message and an escape without too many enemies in the way.

[Giga Guess]

Agreed that Rinoa's plan was poorly planned. My guess is that after her humiliation after discovering her deception, she was desperate. But Seifer had NO idea where the rest of the gang was. For all he knew, they were brainstorming, captured, or dead. He blew in there like gangbusters, hoping to play the hero. Simple as that.

[Anaisa]

But Seifers plan was quick kill the president and leave. So theres no way that in the time it takes him to kill the president hundreds of soldiers are gonna show up. But Rinoa was going to be making an announcement so like i said before unless its short there would be time for more soldiers to arrive.And Seifer didn't put anyone else at risk because they weren't even in the tv station when he got the president. It was them who saw him on the tv and went in there after him.

[TheAbominatrix]

You're contradicting yourself. How do you know he just wanted to kill him? His actions clearly state otherwise, he was holding the president hostage when the others arrived.

I never said their plan was better, but if they'd made the announcement quickly and left, it could have worked. Easily.

Are you not reading anything I'm saying? The rest of them were on their way to the tv station. They didnt go there because they saw Seifer there, though they did hurry then. Seifer put them at risk, because that blew their cover and all the sneaking around they did. They were all quite lucky they didnt get trapped in the tv station and slaughtered, to be honest.

[Anaisa]

In what way have i contradicted myself? And no they didn't go to the tv station because Seifer was there but they knew he was there before they got in there. And since Seifer had his gunblade to his throat i take it he was gonna kill him. And if he didn't intend on killing him what else was he there for? And a few measly soldiers slaughter them i think not!

[TheAbominatrix]

You said he was going to take him hostage before. If Seifer was going to kill him, why didnt he do it right there?

If he didnt intend on killing him, he was obviously going to take him hostage.

And for the tenth time (at least), other soldiers would be alerted to their presense and dispatched to save the President. I feel like a broken record. Jeez.

[Giga Guess]

This is true.And one can assume that there's similar techology, such as walkie-talkies. Therefore, just one soldier can send out an alert.

[TheAbominatrix]

Yeah, there was definitly radio technology in their world. So all they'd have to do is send out a radio signal and alert more, not to mention that everyone in town was watching that broadcast. Any interuption by the enemy would be dealt with quickly, and in even more of a hurry since it involved the President.

[Anaisa]

I said take him hostage or kill him. And if Seifer was there to kill him i don't think in the time it took him to do that hundreds of soldiers would be able to get there. Because if there was that many soldiers in the area (radios or not) Seifer wouldn't have been able to get into the tv station in the first place. If there was that many soldiers around there the security at the tv station would have been alot tighter.

[Giga Guess]

Point Granted. But on the other hand, he could've lucked out...or just pulled off sneaking past the guards. But the fact remains, it was a very foolhardy move. He DID mean well, and perhaps he was aiming to kill the president, and just used him as a hostage to gain safe exit. And if that's the case, what about the others...?

[TheAbominatrix]

I didnt say all the soldiers were on active guard for the tv station. There's clearly a lot of soldiers around Timber. Visible soldiers.

If Seifer were there to kill Deling and leave, he would have already done it. He was holding the sword to his throat for quite some time.

Seifer had to have known the others were in town. If he didnt, that just shows further irresponsibility on his own part - not knowing where his allies were. He was acting like an idiot, risking any number of things that could have been going on in Timber without his knowledge. That's why orders from above are so important; there's usually someone coordinating all those things, making sure everything will work out on it's own and in relation to everyone else.

[Giga Guess]

I didnt say all the soldiers were on active guard for the tv station. There's clearly a lot of soldiers around Timber. Visible soldiers.

If Seifer were there to kill Deling and leave, he would have already done it. He was holding the sword to his throat for quite some time.

Seifer had to have known the others were in town. If he didnt, that just shows further irresponsibility on his own part - not knowing where his allies were. He was acting like an idiot, risking any number of things that could have been going on in Timber without his knowledge. That's why orders from above are so important; there's usually someone coordinating all those things, making sure everything will work out on it's own and in relation to everyone else.


This is true. But it's also not like Seifer hasn't shown a penchant for the dramatic, too...

[TheAbominatrix]

Also a good point. But that negates the 'escape time' point regardless. Even if he were going to kill him at some point, his actions delayed any time that may have bought him.

[Anaisa]

Well he knew the president was going to be making that broadcast so he must have known a bit about what was going on. And he must have been keeping an eye on the tv station so im sure he will have known that the others weren't in there when he went in. And since he did break into the tv station he will have known how many soldiers were in close proximity and how long he would have to kill him or take him hostage. And if he was going to use the president as a hostage to escape when the others arrived im sure they'd have made there escape with him. And taking Deling hostage will give him a considerable amount of escape time.And like Giga guess said maybe he was gonna kill him he was just causing some more drama by not doing it straight away.

[TheAbominatrix]

He knew about the broadcast, that doesnt mean he knew about what the others were doing. And if he did know what the others were going, again, it shows his lack of care and discipline. If he knew what they were doing, he knew he was putting it jeopardy. If he knew they were doing anything in town, he had to know he was putting them and their mission in danger.

Seifer's character does not show that he's a planing sort, I highly doubt he was keeping an eye on the station or scoping it out in the least.

[Anaisa]

It doesn't mean he knows what they are doing or where they are. But he will have known they weren't in the tv station. And thats all that matters because if he went in there alone and got the president what effects would it have on the others? And Seifer had his sorceress knight dream and his list so maybe he is the planning sort.

[TheAbominatrix]

It effects them cause that's where their missions were taking them. It threw all of Timber in an uproar, not just the tv station. Even if they werent headed for the station, they'd be caught for being in Timber at all after that stunt. Notice how they had to sneak out, even though Seifer was the troublemaker.

Yes, he's a dreamer, but he really doesnt seem like much of a planner.

[Anaisa]

They had to sneak out because they were there with Seifer, and Zell revealed where they were from and that they knew each other. If they hadn't have gone in after Seifer, or if Zell hadn't have said that, then no, they would have not had to sneak out of Timber. And to acheive your dreams takes planning.

[TheAbominatrix]

Yet Seifer's dream was attained without planning. Yes, attaining your dreams takes planning. But not everyone does that. I have a lot of dreams, but I dont plan to attain them.

Are you kidding me? Do you think a town full of soldiers would see a group of strangers walking around and say "Oh hey, our President was nearly assassinated, there's some strangers, shouldnt we question them?" "What? Nah."

The first thing that happens in that sort of emergency situation is the town is sealed off to catch the criminals. Anyone suspicious, whether they have been positively i.d.ed as the criminal or not, is stopped for questioning. Questioning at the very least.

[Anaisa]

If someone tries to assasinate a president not everyone in the whole town or where ever is questioned! And if everyone in Timber was going to be questioned they'd have been questioned whether Seifer did that or not.And im sure Seifer had every intention of acheiving his dreams he seemed pretty driven to me.And you don't intend on attaining your dreams! Unless your dreams are impossible to make a reality you should always try and make your dreams come true. I have to make my dreams that can come true into a reality because i won't be satisfied until they are.

[TheAbominatrix]

You're telling me that after an attempted assassination of a President, no one would attempt to find the killer and his cohorts? That's utterly ridiculous. They'd want to find the guy and punish him. Immeadiatly. They knew Seifer wasnt alone, and they'd want to find everyone involved. If there was no danger, then why did everyone sneak out of town instead of just marching out? They hid, because they knew they were in danger. Even the Forest Owls hid because they knew they were in danger, remember?

And I have no doubt that Seifer would do anything to realize his dream, but that doesnt mean he was making detailed plans. Maybe he was, maybe he wasnt. I dont think he was. As for my dreams, I dont expect every one of them to come true. I'm happy either way. It's good that you're willing to make plans for yours, though.

[Anaisa]

No thats not what im telling you. I never said that no one would attempt to find them after an assasination attempt on the president.And yes they were in danger which is why they had to sneak out of Timber but they were not put in that situation because of Seifer they went in after him.So if they didn't follow Seifer into the tv station then no they wouldn't have been in danger.

[TheAbominatrix]

You said not everyone is questioned. It's standard procedure to do otherwise. In fact, if I remember right, soldiers even came to the house that the SeeDs were hiding in.

The fact that they were strangers would have put them in danger. As I said, even the Forest Owls were hiding because they were known troublemakers. Even if they'd never gone into the tv station (they didnt go 'after Seifer', because they were heading there anyway. After the saw him there, they hurried to help him, because that's what you do when your ally is in danger), they'd still be in trouble if they were caught. They had no reason to be in Timber (which was in a police state at the time) and no proof that they were there for any other reason. They'd also been seen with the Forest Owls and were traveling with one of their members.

[Anaisa]

I didn't mean that they went in after him and they went into the tv station because he was there i meant that he was in the building before them and they knew he was in there but they still went in. So It wasn't Seifers fault they had to sneak around it was there choice to go in there after they'd seen what he was doing. And even if Seifer hadn't have done that they'd still have had to sneak out of Timber.

[TheAbominatrix]

You're blatantly ignoring half the things I said. Seifer's actions would mean anyone in town who didnt want to be detained would need to sneak around.

Anyway, you've been ignoring pretty much everything I've said, just making the same argument over and over, and I only bother debating with someone who'll extend the courtesy of acknowledgement. So I'm done arguing with you.

[Anaisa]

Me ignoring what you said? i think not! more like the other way round. And with or without Seifers actions they'd still have had to have snuck around if they went ahead with there plan of making an announcement on live tv.

[Lord_Seymour]

Im sure that would have been a fantastic ending. Everyone being outnumbered and slaughtered.... i would have laughed anyway.

[Rand Al'Tor]

To take over from Abominatrix...

Yes, had they made their announcement, they'd have to be careful as well. But there's a SEVERE difference between 'some guys snuck into the studio and made a statement about Timber independance' and 'some guys snuck in and put a gunblade against our president's neck' The former will probably go on the big pile of 'Resistance movements do stuff'', they'd put some people on it, but wouldn't reqlly expect that much. And quite frqnkly, it wouldn't mqtter thqt much anyway, as it's obvious the Timber people are pretty anti-Galbadian to start with.

the latter... well... I'm almost surprised the Galbadians were so mellow about it. Try to imagine what would happen in a French city during WW2 if an assassination attempt was done on Hitler (and from what I've seen, Hitler/Deling comparisions are perfectly valid) . Total bloody lockdown, everyone showing ID-cards, everyone resisting a bullet through the head... If it was the Shinra, they'd have roasted the town and got it over with... including Squall and company.

So yeah, Seifer was too full of himself and his dream to realize he might put people in danger. When you wanna make your dreams into reality, you have to LIVE in reality.

Same with the SeeD exam. He gets the idea to go hunt Galbadians and ABANDONS his position. WHAT THE HELL? I'm no military expert, but even I can see that you CANNOT get a military operation going with people moving around on a whim. For all Seifer knew, a bunch of Galbadians could waltz across the place they left and kill all the other students, who would be unprepared because they ASSUMED that side was covered by Seifer and his squad. Heck, it's pretty weird SQUALL goes along with it. But perhaps he really just wanted training, and as long as Seifer took responsibility, he didn't care much about the others. (Speculation of mine) Or perhaps Squall was just being stupid. Or didn't want to look like he was wussing out in front of Seifer.

But no, Seifer is NOT SeeD material. Without a major attitude change, the guy would be a danger to anyone with him as much as the enemy. So I can't blame Garden for cracking down on him. Heck, only thing I can blame them for is making him boss of the disciplinary commitee. I mean? HUH? And perhaps Cid for covering for Seifer too much, so Seifer didn't understand that there were consequences for his actions.

[Giga Guess]

Yeah...Cid said he preferred someone who thinks for himself, but Seifer's nature was just dangerous. In a military operation, ALL parts have to work as a unit. I mean how was Seifer to know that the tower wasn't rigged to blow should intruders trespass? Or had hostages, or somethings (Prisoners of war, I guess I should say...)? Or that there was...I dunno...some weapon of mass destruction hidden in the square...? Sometimes orders are unglamorous for a reason, other than humility...

[lgrowse]

Hey i like him he is like me follow instincs and think later ps ( he cant be in a sequel because he died remember luntic pandora when gilgamesh killed him)

[Trumpet Thief]

chaos: I'm pretty sure I have posted in this thread before, so I'll just join the debate. My apologies as I didn't get to read all of the posts, because of a lack of time and patience :p

Rubedo: Anyways, from what I have read, this discussion is revolving around whether Seifer was going to kill the president, and if he should've, so I'll just start from there.

Trowa: I believe that Seifer was going to take the President hostage as even he didn't play that recklessly with lives and whatnot. Although, I hardly doubt it was the Balamb Administrations fault because of that. Even before, on the Dollet mission, he went off rather than following instructions.

Rubedo: As for if he should've done it, it might've been better for him to plan it out more, and perhaps, go along with what the Timber Owls were doing.

[Braindead_Paul]

Hey i like him he is like me follow instincs and think later ps ( he cant be in a sequel because he died remember luntic pandora when gilgamesh killed him)
You didn't finish the game, did you?!

[Giga Guess]

Hey i like him he is like me follow instincs and think later ps ( he cant be in a sequel because he died remember luntic pandora when gilgamesh killed him)


He didn't die. He just got blasted into the middle of next week. Rewatch the ending. He's there.

[lgrowse]

well i have finished the game and he does not appear to be in it all it says is that he is in an other dimention for enternety

[Braindead_Paul]

Then you should watch it again. I wonder how you could miss that scene...

[TheAbominatrix]

well i have finished the game and he does not appear to be in it all it says is that he is in an other dimention for enternety

Um... there's an entire scene with Seifer, Fujin, and Raijin fishing. I dont know how you could have possibly missed that.

It says he's in another dimension? No, it doesnt. Are you sure you didnt this dream that and/or figure it out during a bad LSD trip?

[Squall Leonheart 83]

Seifer he had alot of problms lol how many times did he fale the seed exam again lol i dont think he had a choice it was stay in balamb forever or go to the dark side >.< :eek:

[TheAbominatrix]

Seifer he had alot of problms lol how many times did he fale the seed exam again lol i dont think he had a choice it was stay in balamb forever or go to the dark side >.< :eek:

No one is allowed to stay in Balamb forever, unless they're SeeDs. And there's hundreds of choices aside from those two.

[Kathryn]

No one is allowed to stay in Balamb forever, unless they're SeeDs. And there's hundreds of choices aside from those two.

I know I'm only in Public school but I also know that once you reach 20 years you are to leave Balamb (i Know this because it only took me 2 hours to finish the intire game!) :tongue: :D :tongue: :D :tongue: :D

[TheAbominatrix]

I know I'm only in Public school but I also know that once you reach 20 years you are to leave Balamb (i Know this because it only took me 2 hours to finish the intire game!) :tongue: :D :tongue: :D :tongue: :D

Sure, Gameshark works wonders.

[Doomgaze]

Yeah, SeeDs can stay. That's why there are SeeDs around :p

[MJN SEIFER]

Even if he wasn't in the ending (Which he was) How could he be dead if he get's up after the battle? I'm sure he's not a ghost or anything stupid...

[Itsunari 2000]

The administration can only receive partial blame for the activities of Seifer - his activities in Timber ( ie.taking the president hostage) no doubt resulted in a serious decline of relations between B-Garden and the Galbadian government , but then again it's all they deserve for not ensuring Seifer was kept under close surveillance during his time in detention : Garden clearly has a responsibility for its students, just as its students have a responsibility towards it !