Question

[Misfit]

Which would be a more useful, and um ... just plain BETTER subjob for Warrior? Samurai or Paladin. Opinions? o.o

[Khaotic]

Depends what you want, do you want tanking, or alot of TP gaining?

imo: sam > pld only because you dont really get the full "pld" in sub, because not only do plds already get low mana, being subbed just makes it alot less

So I'd go with sam :D hope this helps

[Misfit]

I see. :hyper:

[Mikztsu]

To be honest, WAR/PLD would be awful compared to PLD/WAR =D PLD tanks are always in demand. But Samurais are cool...I myself could never imagine usiong WAR as main job after getting one of the advanced jobs. When you get your WAR to level 30, use samurai as your main job and..yeah - whatever you please. :) I myself am enjoying RANGER/NINJA very VERY much and patries loves me. <3

[Citizen Bleys]

Sam is immensely fun to play (actually a large part of the reason why I've been playing exclusively on Alexander lately :P), but why play war/sam when you can play sam/war?

[Lionx]

A /PLD sj is like a mini /WHM sj with less spells....its horrible IMO.

/SAM is good at lvl 60 with meditate, but...still why do you want that? Third Eye isnt that great and SAM isnt a hard hitter to give you good stat boosts.

/MNK is good for tanking, Boost generates a decent ammount of hate between vokes, and you get Dodge, Counter, and Focus to hlep your accuracy, not to mention an HP boost. This is a pretty solid choice when tanking.

/THF is good for damage, Sneak crits WSs and later you can Trick onto a real tank. This is pretty soild for dmg.

/NIN is good for tanking somewhat with Utusemi and also for dmging, especially after you get Dual Wield II Haste upgrade later. Dual Wielding Axes make this a solid choice.

I recommend lvling NIN THF AND MNK for differnet situations..../SAM never was that popular imo.

[chionos]

Samurai as a subjob is weak until 60 like lionx said. Until then there are much more viable solutions. I personally like war/mnk. For the Counter ability alone. I love being on the verge of death, with a cure 10 seconds away, and death 5 seconds closer. Then the mob swings....and gets countered...pwned. But war/mnk will never be as good as pld/war for tanking, and it's most definitely not a good damage dealer. But it'll do in a pinch. And Paladin as a sub-job is completely pointless.
Get your warrior up to 37 and never deal with it again. :)

[Misfit]

Get your warrior up to 37 and never deal with it again. :)
Okay, okay I got it! Sooooo, yeah ... No warrior main job, duh ... samurai > paladin ... *writes on paper* :D

[Mikztsu]

Ever thought of a Dark Knight Shay? After last patch, theyr'e stronger again. It's just that so many people are DRK's, but they're good dmg dealers and can cast some usefull spells like aspir. DRK/War would be good. Even DRK/Thf

Oh, there's so many options =D

[Misfit]

Hum, dark knight ... samurai ... dark knight ... samurai ...

Oh god! I don't know! :hyper:

[Ichy]

Get your warrior up to 37 and never deal with it again.
*is very happy to say that this process is finally done for him*

While I disliked WAR very much up until the mid 30s, I actually wound up enjoying it a fair bit afterwards. Great Axe in hand, Mithkabobs in my stomach, Beserk and, if the PLD has enough hate, Warcry for my teammates and myself. WAR can do some wicked damage if used correctly. However, if you do plan to take WAR as a main, be prepared to be less and less of a good tank, and more and more of a mediocre damage dealer. People will likely not invite you if a PLD is available, since that can do the job of 2 WARs+ at higher lvls. You'll likely only get invites as a last minute filller, and if the server population is low enough to warrant no PLDs, you'll be asked to tank with your lower defense and lack of cures.

While I was playing WAR, I found SAM to be the best choice of sub for me. Maybe it's because I use it as my main and I love it so much. I found it far from gimpy, even without meditate. SAM gets very high STR and HP in comparison with other jobs, beaten only really by PLD, MNK, or DRK (if you're looking at pure STR and not HP at all). PLD and DRK are pretty much useless subs, that much has been established repeatedly. I did try MNK and THF subs for WAR. Counter almost never happened, and in all honesty I was doing as much melee damage as a SAM sub, but never more. THF sub was much more effective as Treasure Hunter helped the whole team, but given that most of the time I was tanking, Sneak Attack was usually out of the question. Since you only get Sneak Attack at 30 with a THF sub, by then all the other hardcore WARs have gone off to get PLD.

With my SAM sub I got more TP, and not just a sliver. It was more than noticeable, having the option of laying down WS not as often as a full SAM, but definately quite a bit more than anyone without it... This can be good and bad. All good to have TP, but does anyone else have enough to chain with you once you're ready? Makes you more reliable in setting up a chain, for sure, but you still have to wait for everyone else to be ready, regardless. Third Eye was *very* handy. If you keep your finger on the macro for it, instead of running it arbitrarily to avoid whatever next hit is coming for you, you can set it off right when a Mob's WS is about to hit you. Ever have a Bat's Jet Stream coming at you and have full confidance you're not getting hit? I have :) (ok, Bat's are a poor example, noone want's to lvl off mobs that hit far too hard and give bad exp by comparison, but still, you get the point).

All and all, the other 2 recomended subs here, MNK and THF, all have their advantages and can be quite effective, and clearly you'll need to use one of them at lest until 30 so you can actually get an advanced job, however think instead about what is more fun for you to play. I thought THF was more of a pain than it was worth, imo, and I'm thankful some people out there enjoy it so much to stick with it, because they can be so devastating and integral to keeping Hate on a tank. MNK... is an automated job, moreso than any other, I found. There's seriously not that much to playing one, I lost interest in it very quickly. SAM, on the other hand, I love completely, so that's the definitive and final reason I used it as my WAR's sub on his pilgrimage to 37. If I ever get into playing WAR seriously again, it's still going to be SAM sub for this reason, too.

Wow, that's a mouthful... and that's about all I had to say on it. MNK and THF still very good subs, but don't discount a SAM sub once it's available. Even without a SAM's Meditate at WAR60 it still provides plenty of advantages and is quite powerful. On a last side note, I actually got more invites with my SAM sub, too, than I did using others. That could be counted as subjective as server population and number of available teams fluctuate, but after using THF sub up until 30, and then raising SAM and eventually using that as a WAR sub, it definately felt more effective, and more popular in teams.

[Lionx]

While I disliked WAR very much up until the mid 30s, I actually wound up enjoying it a fair bit afterwards. Great Axe in hand, Mithkabobs in my stomach, Beserk and, if the PLD has enough hate, Warcry for my teammates and myself. WAR can do some wicked damage if used correctly. However, if you do plan to take WAR as a main, be prepared to be less and less of a good tank, and more and more of a mediocre damage dealer. People will likely not invite you if a PLD is available, since that can do the job of 2 WARs+ at higher lvls. You'll likely only get invites as a last minute filller, and if the server population is low enough to warrant no PLDs, you'll be asked to tank with your lower defense and lack of cures.

I disagree, WAR is one of the best classes to be. They can do good hate too, with Warcry, and can do great damage too. They do excellent damage, Tried Sturmwind? What about Minstrel Axe and Raging Rush? They are very strong and can do excellent damage. The reason why maybe your not doing good damage, is cuz you dont have a set of attacking gear. Most good WARs carry tanking and attacking gear to fit their needs. And unlike SAMs they dotn need to spend as much on Acc gear with Agressor. How can PLD do the job of 2+WARs at high lvls? Can they attack, tank and do all those at the same time? No they do not. WAR is a class of their own and can do just about any of the melee job right.


Counter almost never happened, and in all honesty I was doing as much melee damage as a SAM sub, but never more. THF sub was much more effective as Treasure Hunter helped the whole team, but given that most of the time I was tanking, Sneak Attack was usually out of the question. Since you only get Sneak Attack at 30 with a THF sub, by then all the other hardcore WARs have gone off to get PLD.


Ever thought that THF is not for tanking? If yoru taking a THF sub out to the field to tank, then you are screwing up. MNK and NIN are there for tanking, and a properly equipped NIN sub on a WAR can also tank. /THF is there for damage dealing when you got another tank. There is NO reason why you would EVER sub THF to tank. There is a reason why people lvl at least MNK THF and NIN to sub to WAR to maximize their use.


With my SAM sub I got more TP, and not just a sliver. It was more than noticeable, having the option of laying down WS not as often as a full SAM, but definately quite a bit more than anyone without it... This can be good and bad. All good to have TP, but does anyone else have enough to chain with you once you're ready? Makes you more reliable in setting up a chain, for sure, but you still have to wait for everyone else to be ready, regardless. Third Eye was *very* handy. If you keep your finger on the macro for it, instead of running it arbitrarily to avoid whatever next hit is coming for you, you can set it off right when a Mob's WS is about to hit you. Ever have a Bat's Jet Stream coming at you and have full confidance you're not getting hit? I have (ok, Bat's are a poor example, noone want's to lvl off mobs that hit far too hard and give bad exp by comparison, but still, you get the point).


Its a sliver man, Store TP raises TP gain by a certain percentage, how does Store TP by itself give you a whole mass of TP that you can outdo the other people? Third Eye is lvl 30, and thats weak, if thats the reason for subbing SAM then that is weak as hell. What are you doing with SAM sub? WS of course, but the only reason where you want to spam WS is HNM with Spirits Within. In a party you would want to Sneak Attack and WS and do more dmg per WS and hopefully close the SC so the SC itself will do more dmg over all and be more effective. Tanking? Use MNK for HP counter and etc. NIN works fine too, as Utsusemi puts Third Eye back corner. Plus those TP attacks are best stunned, or flashed. And no a WHM should flash as much as they can without drawing Aggro, a properly used Flash can easily help the tank. Trouble holding hate? Thats why THFs are there to hlep too. But no tank should need another to help keep hate.


That could be counted as subjective as server population and number of available teams fluctuate, but after using THF sub up until 30, and then raising SAM and eventually using that as a WAR sub, it definately felt more effective, and more popular in teams.

Ever thought maybe pre-30 THF offers almost nothing to the group? :P
Pre 30 THF is pretty horrible without Sneak attack, and this is where MNK and NIN are better. SAM at tha tpoint is also horrible. I do not see where you find all these things, as it is certainetly not so true.

DRK=Big dmg number, spend gear on acc as you are horrible at it.
SAM=Low dmg number, but you are to juggle Skillchains.

[Ichy]

I never said WARs sucked, just that they were a straight average at what they do, when other more specialised jobs are better at certain individual things in a WAR's repetoire. My comment on a PLD doing the job of 2 WARs was directed entirely in the context of tanking, not doing damage. I should have made that clearer.

The reason I used THF sub for WAR up until 30 was because I happened to have it at 15 and everything else was far too boring for me to be bothered to lvl. I wanted to get it over with and get my advanced job. The extra stats from /THF just happened to help a bunch for hitting and evading and I tanked just fine, no problems at all. Rarely died and even more rarely lost a teamate. Agreed, there are better subs for tanking, but I was doing well already and my PTs were always happy about it. Good enough for me.

The reason for subbing SAM was more than just for 3rd Eye, or Store TP (which is at least 2% more per hit, I've sat there and watched it right in front of me). It was to make me ready for action at the drop of a hat. Need hard hitting damage? I have lots of extra STR, all my attacking gear from playing SAM, compatible with both that and WAR, and you can rely on me to put out a WS whenever you need me to because I get better TP. Need a tank? I have high armor and all the necessary tools, a relatively moderate HP boost, as well as a skill that will guarantee me a dodge on particularly nasty WSs by being quick on the keys. It was completely no-fuss, it got invites often, and I never had to ask what my role was or go to my mog house to switch subs for different purposes. I was ready for anything and did everything well. Bear in mind that this was at 30 I started doing this. I did try MNK and THF subs again at 30+ and always found myself lacking what only the other would provide. Maybe if I had been more resigned to specialise I could have gotten past that, but versatility without the downtime required to stop and make job switches is what ultimately offered me more opportunity for groups.


DRK=Big dmg number, spend gear on acc as you are horrible at it.
SAM=Low dmg number, but you are to juggle Skillchains.

As for that... I've sat there and counted blow for blow in PTs with both me as SAM and with a DRK in the PT and, believe it or not, I often match the DRK in damage and sometimes I do more. Unlike some players there I take the time to make sure my gear is at the top, +31 Attack and +10 Accuracy without food so far, and only getting better. If half the DRKs I've PTed with took care to do the same, then yes, they would certainly do more damage than me, but either way a well equipped SAM is definately not a low damage dealer.

[Lionx]

Ah, well from what i seen i thought you meant they sucked. Mediocore...eh sorta had that effect on me. I just didnt want the view that WARs cant do anything at all. Misunderstood.

I agree with the context on the tanking up a degree, PLDs do not care about damage, so they put all their DEF up and Cure and use spells mainly to keep hate, soaking damage. WAR can do the same, except with the obvious lack of spells they use damage to keep it up. The difference i feel is that WARs can use differnet subs to make different methods of tanking. A WAR/MNK is definetly similar to a PLD in the sense it eats the damage, but a WAR/NIN goes onto the blink side of thinks. In my view theres, Soak up tank, and Blink tank, and WAR depending on subs fall in the medium...never excelling at either, but can do both...at least reasonably well.

As for damage on SAM...i am not too sure. Becuase while they do pretty decent damage early on, they do fall behind just about every other melee there is later on. Maybe i dont find SAM that useful for that purpose. But...i can sorta see how things can be at lvl 30, where SAM seems to fall between THF and MNK. I personally want to specialize with lvling both subs so i can as like the example above, step on either side of the scale and excel.

Mmm i wasnt clear on teh damage thing, the thing i was getting at that, WARs, MNKs, THFs,DRKs etc, all later on regularly outdamage the SAM on a regular basis. SAMs themselves dont have crappy damage, but they cannot compare up to the other melee that are out there. Sorry i wasnt clear on this. You know..DRK 800 something SC while a SAM can do about 400(which is not horrible, but its nothing when its like compared to what the DRK does)....Although i would say that combined dmg renkeing with a SAM, prolly culmilitively is greater as a whole.

[Misfit]

You guys type alot. :eyebrow:

I think I decided on SAM/WAR. :hyper:

But um, do Samurai's deal lots of damage? (what? I kinda skimmed through those large paragraphs, I have a short attention span! LOOK A BIRDY!) *chases it*


EDIT: I just thought ... how about NIN/WAR? Eh? EH?!

[Mikztsu]

nin/war makes a good tank, yeppers. :]

[Lionx]

Yea..NINs are tankers, they are very different from SAMs. While SAMs do dmg/skillchain, NINs tank using the Blink Ninjutsu Utsusemi.

At first, its hard with only one blink spell, after a while they get another one, and its easier to hold hate. They use Enfeebles to keep hate, and must keep hate up with voke and keep blink up. Utsusemi juggling is very important later as Ichi spells dont override the Ni ones. Its kinda challenging to play and expenisve cuz each cast, is 1 ninja tool. Even with two stacks of 99 tools for Utsusemi, it can burn up fast. And you need other powders for enfeebles...o.oa

[Misfit]

Oh man! I think I'll just stick with SAM/WAR! ^______^

THANKS GUYS FOR THE ADVICE! :joker:

[Citizen Bleys]

SAM kicks a mountain of ass the size of the Death Star.

Never forget this.

[Mikztsu]

Samurais are awesome. Yesterday I was in party with my ranger, and me and samurai were part of some awesome skillchains, seeing as we both build up TP many times faster than others. :D We often managed to do two skillchains together in one battle, eventhough we killed pretty fast. fun fun!

Samurais are the masters of skillchains, and skillchains are what makes battles much more fun and samurais useful tools and good damage dealers. Some says samurais are not good damage dealers, but they forget how usefull skillchains are...which samurais are mastering.

[Citizen Bleys]

As a bard, I love playing with a SAM, because the only reason they're not a better DD than BLM is because of how often they miss.

With Madrigal and March, that's not a problem. I can make a SAM kick way more ass than a blm, unless it's like (fire threnody) (fire) (wind threnody) (aero) etc etc etc.

That never happens. BLMs, except the best of the best, don't pay attention to what Threnody I've just played, they just cast whatever the hell they want, and never in any predictable order so that I can keep the appropriate threnody.

With a SAM, it's just (Madrigal), (March), and sit back and watch the damage roll in.

[Ichy]

If you keep your EQ up to date with + DEX and +Acc stuff (Fedration Tekko comes to mind as a lifesaver) then you won't feel the traditional SAM missing streaks until the early 30s, at which point you're pretty close to getting your hands on a Jujitsu Gi (assuming you took the care to camp it or farm for the cash). It only gets better, I have a Life Belt (lvl48) now and ditched my Gi for a Shinobi (need the DEF so I can be a trick buddy) and I tell you, BRD or not, I still hit 9 outta 10. SAM missing streaks are only as bad as your equipment. Take the time to farm and camp and get what you need to be effective and you'll be doing fine.

Now... this is in no way to disregard a BRD's usefulness. Sure enough, as mobs get tougher ACC songs seriously make a differance. Just saying that up till the mid 30s it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be if you just stay vigilant... unless you're playing a Galkan or an Elvaan... then your DEX as a SAM just sucks. Regardless of the damage per hit you put out, you will miss a fair bit more. (bear in mind all I've played is Hume, but from what I've PTed with and read elsewhere, my previous statement holds water fairly well).

One could say that SAM does excelent damage in regards to it's true purpose, and this is definately true. One of the hardest hitters, for sure, but not the best. Although your best bet at getting invites with people you don't know is definately your damage output, SAM's true strength lies in simply being capable of doing at least 1 pt of damage per hit, every hit. This is the minimum to acquire TP, your life's blood, your drug. Seriously, if you don't have a skillchain chart, don't have the patience to save up for over-priced gear, even don't want to be a back-up tank on the rare occasion, or trick attack buddy often times, then you may want to rethink this job.

If, however, you love skillchains, melee, and face it ->Style<-, if you're a TP addict, this is definately the job for you.

[Lionx]

Ichy, you say your accuracy is not bad now. I just want you to maybe give me reports of it after 50? Mobs really leap over there in difficulty, and ppl always complain of accuracy troubles (at least some of the SAMs), i am just very curious of how high the mobs are in difficultiy after 50. Becuase my PLD friend doesnt want to get a LifeBelt if he doesnt need to, and i just want to see how bad those monsters are in regards to melee. So if you can maybe report back on how evasive those monsters have become? o.o Thanks in advance.

[Ichy]

Playing it @ 49 right now, and like I said, I don't find it as bad as people make it out to be. Post 50, though, I haven't seen yet, so it is always possible I'll be looking towrds sniper rings at that point, or wishing I was Mithran... Just gotta get that lvl cap out of the way first :Oo:

[Lionx]

I just wanted to say WARs rock XD

http://www.pplsdbz.net/~zquestionmark/ffxi/ragingrush.JPG

[Misfit]

Man, obviously! 8-)