Aerith didn't love Cloud because of Zack

[battousai9439]

Weimar Pluto Knight VII, you said you wanted the dialog, and here it is...


Inside the Gondola...

Aerith: (looking at the window) Wow, how nice. Oh! Look, Cloud. It's so pretty.

We watch a movie of the fireworks at the Gold Saucer and the Gondola moving.

Aerith: ......it's beautiful, isn't it? ......First off, it bothered me how you
looked exactly like. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same.
The way you walk, gesture... I think I must have seen him again, in you... But
you're different. Things are different...

We watch a movie of the view of the Gold Saucer.

Aerith: Cloud... I'm searching for you.

Cloud: ...............?

Aerith: I want to meet you.

Cloud: But I'm right here.

Aerith: (I know, I know... what I mean is...) I want to meet...... you.











Just to clear up any confusion. "I want to meet you" is a colloquial Japanese expression, indicating that you are intersted in a romantic relationship with the person. Most people get confused over that...

[The Dude Abides]

And how Does that mean that she doesent love Cloud because of Zack

[bakabakabaka]

I never said that

I only posted this because me and someone else were arguing in the thread "who's ur fav ff7 char"

go there to read the rest

[TheAbominatrix]

She certainly gets her initial attaraction to him because he reminded her of Zack. I believe she wants to get to know the real him, and she's certainly intersted in him, but I dont think she was in love with him anyway. She didnt know him long enough.

[battousai9439]

granted, the initial attraction is due to the fact the cloud looks like zack.

but not in love with him?

After all the obvious hints Squenix has given?

[TheAbominatrix]

There's a large difference between being in love with someone and being attracted to/liking them. She cared for Cloud, yes. But that doesnt mean she was in love with him. Given time, she probably would have fallen in love with him. I dont think people can fall in love so quickly, no matter what they may say. Infatuation yes, but not love. And Aerith never knew the real Cloud, either. She never knew him before the incidents in Nibelheim, and she died before he recovered his true self, thanks to Tifa and their time in the Life Stream

[battousai9439]

so what are you trying to say about the lifestream event?

[TheAbominatrix]

I'm saying that's where Cloud became his real self again.

[battousai9439]

1) Are you a CloTi?

2) Pay attention to the game... take a hint



No, that's where he rediscovers his past

Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Pay attention to the game... take a hintDon't be so condescending. This is a warning.

[battousai9439]

are you a mod?

[TheAbominatrix]

I never said he didnt care for her, or she didnt care for him. Im saying she didnt know him long enough or well enough to be truly in love with him. I could care less who he ends up with, and it really doesnt matter, seeing as Aerith is dead. I could care less if you think they're madly head over heels for eachother. I dont think people fall in love that quickly.

Secondly, that's exactly what I'm saying. The Cloud all throughout the game is living a lie and thinking all these false things about himself. The person he thinks he is isnt who he is at all. His real self is discovered in that event, thanks to the trauma of the Life Stream and Tifa's help.

[battousai9439]

Why does it matter if Aerith is dead?


But granted, Cloud was living a lie.

[TheAbominatrix]

The relationship argument. The Cloud loves Tifa folks versus the Cloud loves Aerith folks. It really doesnt matter, especially since Cloud cant be with Aerith at the end of the game. And it really really doesnt matter, since they're video game characters and all. I dont care if Cloud dates a cardboard box. Would I like to see him with Tifa? Sure. But that doesnt make me so biased that I cant logically think about their emotions for eachother and all that nonsense.

[battousai9439]

How am I being illogical?

[TheAbominatrix]

I never said you were being illogical. You asked me if I was a CloTi, and I'm saying it doesnt matter whether I am or not. It doesnt effect this conversation in the least.

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Oh, I finally noticed the thread.

I'm too lazy to mark spoilers, so I'll just put a disclaimer at the beginning so I don't have to worry about it.

Okay, 'meeting you' really does mean what I thought it meant when I first played it right before I entered the 8th grade.

Well, you just admitted that the meeting thing was just Japanese colloquism, and I thought you were gonna call that the strongest part of your case. You just lost your case right there. There's no more evidence left.

Okay, so she meets a guy named Cloud who she begins to have an infatuation with b/c he's like Zack. According to you, she decides to have a date with him one night (assuming you've treated her nicely) and wants to instigate a sexual relationship with Cloud.

The first time I saw the date, I thought it was very beautiful, since I was a dumb kid in 8th grade. I played Nintendo all my life, and was not used to sex in video games, and also what I just did to Danielle and me by changing their names. But, if the point of the date is to make Aeris optional and to allow you to hook up with the other girls and Barret, it's not meant to be anything romantic, but rather humorous. I thought Tifa's was humorous when I first saw it. I haven't seen Yuffie or Barret, but I imagine they're funny. I think it's sort of a minigame that is the most bishojen thing in FF I've encountered thus far.

Tifa and Cloud truly love each other for who they are. Tifa was part of unlocking his true self, while Aeris only made him want to be more like Zack. He had feelings that were sort of developing since he was a little kid, and with Tifa--well, as they say, 'the heart grows fonder when you're away,' or something like that.

[TheAbominatrix]

"Absense makes the heart grow fonder"

I think the dates allow a little more insight into characters, but because they're optional (as far as who you go with) it really doesnt mean anything to the rest of the game.

[battousai9439]

1) "i want to meet you" is for sexual AND/OR romantic relationships.

2) WHEN did cloud show any NON-OPTIONAL affection for Tifa?

[TheAbominatrix]

When did he show any non-optional affection for Aerith?

[battousai9439]

I'll answer in a minute, i'm waiting for Weimar



Guys, it's 1:30 at my place... i need to go to bed (been suffering from severe exhaustion)


I'll be back tomorrow at about 9:00 pacific time





this is not over, i still have evidence...

Edit by Kishi: I said, "Don't double-post."

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Yeah, if you knew that Japanese were into games called bishojo s, you'd realise that that's sort of what it is.

If they didn't make it so easy to get Aeris, Americans would get it. "Oh, this is a date thing, which is supposed to be fun. I like [mini]games about dating girls."

I think actually what it does to the rest of the game is make you read into certain things, especially if it's shortly after the date. Or, not read into things.

Hmm, let me think of evidence in favor of Cloud/Aeris since battousai can't do it himself. Cait Sith says, no matter if you go with Tifa or Aeris on the date (and there is bonus animation if you take the game's suggestion to take Tifa to TA), at the Temple of Ancients, that Cloud and Aeris are perfect for one another. Why does this not matter, either?

A lot of the conversations between Aeris and Cloud when it isn't in context with the rest of the game is either about her sexual selection or about oppurtunities for you to be nice to her so you can go on a date with her. I hope for all who have read my posts are no longer supporters of Cloud and Aeris loving each other.

EDIT: Oh, no wonder you love the Aeris date. You are only 13. Sorry when I made that "dumb 8th grader" comment; I didn't check your profile until after I said that. Well, when sexual fascination and your hormones subside in about 5 or 6 years, you'll begin understand that the serious love in the game is Cloud and Tifa. Cloud and Tifa forever! May they be in love in AC. Oh yes. A kiss between them would definitely torture you. "Noooo, Squenix!"

[battousai9439]

HOLD IT!!!


I'm sorry, but i do not have any sexual fascination, believe it or not.

That stage of my life is already over...

I'm the old type, a "romance boy" if you will...

[TheAbominatrix]

He'd be pissed if Barret died. He'd be pissed if Tifa died. He'd be pissed if Red XIII died. People are typically pissed when their friends die.

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

You can behave like that if you just started a sexual relationship with someone. It's unclear. He might react that way over any innocent life taken, I mean Aeris was a beautiful person whether you love her or not, combined with the fact of how much Cloud hates Sephiroth.

EDIT: You're not 13? Why are you lying in your prof?

[battousai9439]

And weimar... if i had any sexual thoughts, i'd be drooling over tifa and her "airbag-chest"

pfft...





EDIT: I AM 13... i've also been told that i have the mind of a 20+ year-old, at least my psychological profile says so...

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Yes, I drooled over her when I was 13. Today, I wish she didn't wear that. Cloud's love began before she started wearing a sexy wardrobe.

[battousai9439]

For some reason, sex does not appeal to me any longer. I stopped being so fascinated about a year ago.





I'm sorry, but I have to get off the PC now... see ya tommorrow

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Stay on topic. I already have enough reasons to want to close this thread.

[HanaKirei]

Eh...dunno whether or not my input's really welcome/necessary in this thread seeing as it's only been three people mainly lashing back and forth and I'll probably just end up repeating what's already been said, but may as well since I do feel pretty strongly on the matter. Spoilers ahead, beware.

Now, I'll state this flat out. I've stated it before, and I'll state it again: I don't like Tifa. I'm not afraid to admit that I'm extremely biased towards Aeris. Her character just appeals to me, whereas I didn't find Tifa to be all that interesting at all. And I do adore the interaction Aeris and Cloud have within the game.

However, I'll be the first one to admit that they weren't actually in love. If Aeris hadn't died, there was a strong possibility that they could have. But under the circumstances, no. Aeris expressed a desire to 'meet' the true Cloud, but she died before she ever had the chance. You can't love someone you don't know. Cloud himself was extremely emotionally and mentally unstable at that point. I don't doubt for a second that they felt strongly for one another, or at least developed a powerful bond, but there is no way true love could have developed between them so quickly under those circumstances. By the time Cloud knew who he was again, it was too late.

I think a part of Cloud's heart will always remain with Aeris, and I think Tifa of all people will understand that. Tifa does honestly care about Cloud, and they have their whole lives ahead of them to develop their friendship into more. Something which, unfortunately, Aeris and Cloud will never have the chance to do. As much potential as there might have been, it all went down just as heavy as Sephiroth's sword. Which is probably the single worst analogy ever, but it's nearly 5am. XD; Cut me some slack.

Erm, yes. That's all. I'm going to go over here and shut up now. *scampers off*

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

I don't seem to believe you aren't into sex right now. I mean, you're location is alluding to going on a date. That date was extremely sexual, and you are very fascinated with it. Meanwhile, the love between Tifa and Cloud, which is beautifully developed in the lifestream, is extremely spiritual. It's not like Cloud's sacred locked up memory was, "Hey Cloud. My friends are gone. Would you like to touch THEM?" I bet that would be your sacred memory.

EDIT: two people lashing back and forth you say? I think this is funny.

[HanaKirei]

EDIT: two people lashing back and forth you say? I think this is funny.

I didn't mean it in a violent way! ^.^; Well, maybe a little violent, but erm...very heated discussion is what I meant. XD;

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Spoilers and such.

I am in agreement with most of the posters here. While there was the POSSIBILITY of love between Cloud and Aeris, such a thing did not come to pass, Sephiroth ended that possibility with his No-Dachi in one clean blow. What ends up happening between Cloud and Tifa, however, is the development of a lasting relationship that can be defined as love. That's not to say that it wouldn't have happened had she survived (I actually believe there would have been some degree of competition between Aeris and Tifa, and I couldn't really say who would win) but the fact remains that she didn't.

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Yeah, heated discussion is what I thought you meant, HK.

battousai started this thread, and I was enjoying "puttin' his mind right," as they say in the movie Cool Hand Luke. If I offended some mods, then I apologise.

[HanaKirei]

Ne, this is just out of my own curiousity, feel free to bop me for asking since it's sort of off-topic...if Battousai wanted to say this to Weimar specifically, couldn't this have just as easily been done through PMs instead of a new thread? ^^;

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Oh, why was Kishi bothering him about doubleposting? Were some of his posts deleted? I hope he wasn't confusing me with battousai b/c our avatars resemble each other.

[TheAbominatrix]

Most of battousai's posts were double posts. Kishi fixed them.

[battousai9439]

Weimar, are you saying that cloud Rediscovers his love for Tifa or something like that?



EDIT: Yeah, I was doubleposting...

[Weimar Pluto Knight VII]

Well, the Lifestream event and the whole Cloud and Tifa story is very complicated, and you'll have to play the game a bunch of times to understand it.

Okay, about 10 years ago, we have two childhood friends... . Cloud developed a crush on Tifa initially, and goes into her room once. Then they fall on Mt. Nibel. When she got out of a coma, there was a time when they could develop a young friendship. Cloud's crush makes him behave violently b/c he wants Tifa to notice him, which probably means she wasn't hanging out with him enough, or the other kids weren't treating him nicely b/c he's weak. But there was definitely a friendship developing, however unique, b/c she goes to see him by the well. During the 7 years Cloud is absent from her life, "Absence made her heart grow fonder." That's probably what happened to Cloud, too, b/c he wasn't around Tifa, and he is also maturing. Unfortunately, the Jenovan cells and being experimented on caused him to become schizophreniac, so what you are doing in the Lifestream is getting his old self back. One thing that he has is a sacred memory that's locked up in his heart, and this memory involves Tifa. Cloud loved Tifa so much that he treasured that memory even after he became a schizophreniac.

Cloud and Tifa's love is beautiful in that it began developing when they were children, and matured as they got older and were apart from each other for years. 13-year-olds don't understand this kind of love or how beautiful it is, but you will soon.

The difference between Cloud/Aeris and Cloud/Tifa is one is just something bishojen, and the other is a serious love.

Maybe you are anti-Cloti because you are jealous of Cloud and Tifa. Don't you wish you knew a girl from your childhood like that, then grew to love her like that?

[Naughty Tifa]

LOL, good job, guys. I must say, I'm a Cloti fan all the way, and battousai, I see you go to Destiny_Fulfilled forums. And are a friend of Anastar, correct? I see. *sighs* I know them, and they know me. However, I will not tell you who I am for the sake of staying sane. I'm not a well liked Cloti over there, in fact I am known as one of the most "rabid" ones with no life. No comment on that of course, as it is just biased.

Just my two cents here: What Anastar writes about Japanese culture is not FACT at all. Because you see, she doesn't know what she's talking about. A friend of mine, who asked a friend of her's what the "I want to meet you scene" means, who is actually Japanese by the way, (she didn't live there until she was 12. ^^; *cough*Naru*cough*) had not a clue what my friend was talking about. And that just goes to show you, you know, how your little internet posses could be lying. It is not FACT. This info comes from somebody that has not spoken Japanese in their 9 lives, and probably sits on their ass all day trying to learn Japanese, ne ne! Why put all this crap into a videogame, no less? Have you ever heard of, let's see, leaving a game open to the player's interpretation? Could you UNDERSTAND THAT? Or do you not grasp that concept at all, because all of you are too busy shoving your opinions down other people's throats, following Anastar around mindlessly, clueless. Get this: No,these Clotis Aren't going to listen to you, no we aren't going to worship japanese culture to the point of obsession, and we certainly [b]aren't[b] going to go around talking badly about a group of people from another fandom just because of a stupid, videogame coupling. Get the hell over it. PLEASE. Tell FF_Goddess that she isn't one to talk about other people like that, when she's 27 and enjoys worhsipping pixels. And anime. She needs a job. <3 But hey, what do I know. I'm just defending myself. I don't wish for people I don't in real life to die a most painful death...But you know, as you can tell now I'm just a BIT ticked off, XD.

Sorry for that, I just needed to get it off my chest. That wasn't particularly directed at you, just so you know. And yes, I'm the ever so famous, Cloud_Is_My_Lover. Be sure to infrom them of this, I just want them to know.

Okay, so NOW LMAO I finally get to the part of my rant where I talk about Cloud and Tifa. Why Cloud and Tifa? Simple, they have loved eachother since childhood. Tifa loved Cloud for what he was, not because he looked like someone she one knew. I just don't SEE CloudxAeris, I really can't. There was no type for a relashionship to develop, and there sure as hell wasn't a bond. Only in your fantasies, XD.

I think it couldn't get any more clearer for me than in the lifestream sequence. Ah, so beautiful. And oh, if anybody is going to start with that, "Tifa bullied Cloud thing." Just shove it, okay. Tifa was surrounded by a group of boys, and she was popular. Cloud was not. I can obviously see how hard for them it must be to see eachother. Exept for that night at the well. Which was sad. T_T *sniff* Now, ya wanna take that crush of wanting to get into SOLDIER for the girl you like, compare it with knowing a girl for a few weeks and..to me, it wouldn't make sense. And what makes it even more sad is that Aeris is dead. Gone. She's a rotting corpse. Nomura stated HIMSELF. HIMSELF. HIMSELF. HIMSELF. That she's not going to return. NO CLOUD IS NOT AN ANCIENT. NO CLOUD CANNOT GO TO THE PROMISED LAND. QUIT IT WITH ALL THIS BULLhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif. <3 Phew. I'm suprised the LT debate even EXISTED, IMO, for when I first met my first bunch of rabid CloAeris fans, I knew that all hell would break loose. >_>

Ok, now I'm done. Sorry if I sounded rude, once again. I just wanted to let my opinions be heard. Oh, and I have not propelry introduced myself. I'm Naughty_Tifa...obviously. Hehe, hey. :p

[battousai9439]

Nomura also stated HIMSELF, HIMSELF, HIMSELF, HIMSELF that the couple WAS cloud/aerith

[One winged angel of death]

uh..... Aerith liked Cloud because he looked like Zack or so she thought. Which means she was loveing Cloud because he looked like Zack not because he WAS Cloud. Got it?

[Naughty Tifa]

Nomura also stated HIMSELF, HIMSELF, HIMSELF, HIMSELF that the couple WAS cloud/aerith

Sorry, but do provide me with the quote.^^;

[TheAbominatrix]

Um... she looks at him and he looks away. That could mean anything.

And your own quote is kind of working against you. " but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories."

edit: looks like he deleted his post... well, mine is supposed to go down there.

Anyway, what happened at the end? It's the only interaction between Cloud and Aerith. He enters the room, she approaches him and looks at him (sort of bending forward as she does, like she does in FFVII all the time), and he looks away. That's the extent.

[battousai9439]

Okay maybe I phrased that the wrong way.

This is an excerpt from the interview with Tetsuya Nomura concerning Kingdom Hearts (Yes, it is relevant to our discussion)

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players.






Would you care to tell us what happened near the end?





EDIT: Abominatrix... "But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered"






EDIT: I accidentally posted twice, and accidentally deleted both

[TheAbominatrix]

Yes I see that. But that contradicts the rest. And again, that scene doesnt give any concrete answers. For all we know, Nomura could be saying they were just friends. All they do is look at eachother.

[battousai9439]

They have loved eachother since childhood.




How can they have loved one another since childhood when they didn't know one another very well? Tifa even admitted to that during the Lifestream Event:

"...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well."

Since they didn't know one another well during childhood, that means they couldn't have been in love with one another as children. It also means that they were just getting to know one another at the beginning of the game.

[Snake Eyes]

LOL, good job, guys. I must say, I'm a Cloti fan all the way, and battousai, I see you go to Destiny_Fulfilled forums. And are a friend of Anastar, correct? I see. *sighs* I know them, and they know me. However, I will not tell you who I am for the sake of staying sane.

:eep: You might want to delete this then. On that very same post...


And yes, I'm the ever so famous, Cloud_Is_My_Lover. Be sure to infrom them of this, I just want them to know.

:eep: Just trying to help....


Cloud and Tifa's love is beautiful in that it began developing when they were children, and matured as they got older and were apart from each other for years.

The problem within this claim of yours though, is that I believe you made a huge jump from a simple childhood crush to a beautiful love.

From my vantage point of view, Crush=/= Love...

The lifestream sequence confirms that he had a crush on Tifa, but assuming that he is now in love with her in the present is purely subjective.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

"...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well."She says that she didn't know him that well prior to the day Cloud followed her to Mt. Nibel. After she came out of that coma, they were dear friends right up until they were teenagers and Cloud left town to try to join SOLDIER. It's pretty absurd to say that they were just getting to know one another in the game's present setting.

[Snake Eyes]

After she came out of that coma, they were dear friends right up until they were teenagers and Cloud left town to try to join SOLDIER.

That depends on other people's view. It's not actually a fact...

From the game's script:Lifestream Sequence

"Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me..." ---Cloud

You actually think they were dear friends when Cloud felt that Tifa blamed him for the accident?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

That kind of underlying apprehension isn't enough to disrupt a friendship.

[battousai9439]

Snake Eyes has a good point

[TheAbominatrix]

Why not? Cloud felt guilty. It doesnt mean he disliked her for it. Tifa didnt blame him at all. I've felt guilty over things that have occured with friends, and it doesnt mean I'm not close to them.

[Snake Eyes]

That kind of underlying apprehension isn't enough to disrupt a friendship.

No, the issue is not whether their friendship existed or not, but more around the fact that Tifa didn't really know him. You claimed that they've been close with each other right after Tifa came out of the coma.... My claim is that there's really no sufficient proof for that...

[battousai9439]

what proof do you have that they even became friends?

[TheAbominatrix]

My very best friend doesnt know everything that goes on in my head. Saying that, because Tifa didnt know Cloud felt he blamed himself, that they werent close is ridiculous. There are certain things people keep guarded from those they love the most. My boyfriend doesnt even know the things I hide, things I'm ashamed of.

[battousai9439]

You didn't answer my question...

[Snake Eyes]

Not the point, the underlying theme of that post is to tell you exactly what happened when Tifa was in a coma. What you said is base on personal experience. I can easily say the exact same opposite of it. What I'm telling you guys though, is that there's no indication that they were "that" close as you guys like to put it. If there was then, I'll hapilly comply. However, I haven't seen anything yet that would change my perspective...

[TheAbominatrix]

I wasnt addressing your question. You've avoided some of mine as well.

What proof? The game states that they were childhood friends. As do Tifa and Cloud.

edit: I never said they were that close. I said something like that wouldnt destroy a friendship or negate one. If that isnt your point, why use that quote?

[battousai9439]

give us a quote that proves that Cloud and Tifa were friends, then...



I think we've got him cornered...

Edit by Kishi: Stop double-posting, jerk.

[TheAbominatrix]

First of all, I'm a her. Second of all, I dont just sit and troll this thread to the exclusion of all else. Get a grip on yourself.

Want a quote? I have four.

Tifa "So! You're really leaving!?" "You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"

Sector 7 NPC "Tifa's childhood friend. That's a good one!"

Johnny "You're Tifa's childhood friend, and you brought a girlfriend to a place like this!?" "What kind of guy are you!!"

Barret "Oh, and uh, Tifa... I don't like askin' this but......" "Is he really your childhood friend? And not Sephiroth's shadow?"
(She looks at Cloud)
Tifa "Huh!? Well... that is......" (She shakes her head)
Tifa "No, I'm sure of it!"

[Snake Eyes]

I never said they were that close. I said something like that wouldnt destroy a friendship or negate one. If that isnt your point, why use that quote?

Not the right context of the term "that close" Abominatrix.

The context of what I'm using corresponds to what you've recently said:

Saying that, because Tifa didnt know Cloud felt he blamed himself, that they werent close is ridiculous.---Abominatrix

You claim that those ideas are ridiculous, while not providing sufficient proof of what you said other than your personal experience...


The usage of that quote is that it implies multiple possibilities such as Cloud and Tifa not trying to get to know each other because of what Cloud felt right after the incident.

[TheAbominatrix]

I never said they were close or not close. I said, using that as the reason is ridiculous. Such a thing has little to do with how close people are.

[battousai9439]

Saying that, because Tifa didnt know Cloud felt he blamed himself, that they werent close is ridiculous


You just contradicted that with...


I never said they were close or not close

[TheAbominatrix]

And I just explained what I meant by that.

I am NOT saying they were that close. I am NOT saying that werent that close. I DID say that using guilt as a way to say they werent that close is ridiculous. Is that so hard to understand?

[battousai9439]

So what's your point, let's get right down to it

[TheAbominatrix]

I've already told you my stance on the issue. You're the one trying to prove your point in this thread. I already proved all mine.

[battousai9439]

No, you haven't proven anything

[TheAbominatrix]

Seeing as I provided plenty of quotes to prove that point, yes I do believe they were friends. The game states that they were friends. I'm not saying they were very very close, because I have no evidence of that. I'm sure kishi knows, since he's practically the FF expert, but he'll have to prove it, not me.

Please feel free to list any things I've stated but not backed up.

[battousai9439]

And i'll give some counter-evidence...


1. Cloud was excluded from Tifa's group of friends.
2. Cloud was in Tifa's house only once -on the day Tifa's mother died.
3. Tifa said that she didn't know Cloud very well even though they lived next door to one another.
4. Cloud didn't tell Tifa about what happened at the bridge.

[Snake Eyes]

Okie we're going off on a tangent here let's straignten it up:


I am NOT saying they were that close. I am NOT saying that werent that close. I DID say that using guilt as a way to say they werent that close is ridiculous.

That is why I said this Abominatrix:

Not the point, the underlying theme of that post is to tell you exactly what happened when Tifa was in a coma. ----Snake Eyes

The context of the term "that close" corresponds what you said when you compare the situation to your Boyfriend and Bestfriend:

What you said is base on personal experience. I can easily say the exact same opposite of it. What I'm telling you guys though, is that there's no indication that they were "that" close as you guys like to put it. If there was then, I'll hapilly comply. However, I haven't seen anything yet that would change my perspective...----Snake Eyes

I made generalization in that statement, but I didn't mean you exactly. I'm just telling you the main point when I made those statements..

[TheAbominatrix]

1. Yes he was. I'm excluded from one of my best friend's groups of friends. Because they dont like me. Doesnt make her any less my friend.
2. And? I've never been in the house of a guy I've known for years. His parents are strict. He's still my friend. Tifa's dad seemed pretty angry at Cloud for what happened at the mountain, so he could have forbade Cloud to come in there. Or maybe Cloud was just too scared to.
3. Yep. That doesnt mean they didnt get to know eachother late. And again, I'm not saying they're super-best friends. They were friends, as the game states.
4. This could be for a number of reasons. Maybe he didnt want her to talk hm out of it.
5. And? He didnt tell her everything that happened at any point. He was ashamed about a lot of things. Cloud isnt a very open person.

And again, the game states that they were friends. It's a rather important detail to the game.

edit: I used my boyfriend and my best friend as examples. I could have used one for both of the examples, I just switched it up. As for the rest of that, I still dont get what you mean by it, but whatever.

[Snake Eyes]

I used my boyfriend and my best friend as examples. I could have used one for both of the examples,I just switched it up. As for the rest of that, I still dont get what you mean by it, but whatever.

Long story short, I was pointing out the fact that what you said has nothing to with what I claim. I'm addressing how deep their friendship are, not questioning its existance...

[TheAbominatrix]

Oooh okay. Im sorry, I got rather confused. Thanks for clearing that up, I can be rather airheaded sometimes.

[Plasma]

Let me say first, I don't really think "I want to meet you," was meant to be sexual in any way. I do support Cloud and Aeris, but I think in context, "I'm searching for you, I want to meet you," means she wanted to get to know him better. If they had wanted Aeris to say "I want to be your girlfriend," or whatever, I think it would have been easy to simply put that.
Secondly, I am 14, but let's not jump to any conclusions about my maturity level. All teenagers are not sexually obsessed perverts.

I don't think of Cloud and Tifa's "love" (the theory) as being more spiritual that the "love" of Cloud and Aeris. The beauty for their love is that it crosses the boundaries of death, that Cloud can continue to love her even after she has died. Regardless of what you may think or have heard, revenge over Aeris's death was one of the main driving forces in Cloud's fight against Sephiroth. I'm interested in the conflict between Cloud and Sephiroth in Advent Children, because (in my opinion) Cloud had fought and finally avenged Aeris, and to see Sephiroth alive once more would profoundly affect Cloud.


She says that she didn't know him that well prior to the day Cloud followed her to Mt. Nibel. After she came out of that coma, they were dear friends right up until they were teenagers and Cloud left town to try to join SOLDIER. It's pretty absurd to say that they were just getting to know one another in the game's present setting.

How is it that if Cloud and Tifa were such dear friends, that Cloud was only ever in her room once? When he asked her to the well, why was he so suprised that she actually showed up? Why would her watch her from her window rather than actually being present with her? She herself says that they weren't close, yet they were "dear friends?"


Tifa "So! You're really leaving!?" "You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"

When Tifa says this, it is before the lifestream, and before she finds out the truth. Cloud isn't the only one who uncovers his past. Tifa says that she always thought that they were close, but that she never even remembered him being up to her room. The one time Cloud did come, Tifa was so preoccupied with her mother's recent death that she was oblivious to it.

Of course Barret would have thought they were childhood friends. Tifa, after having found Cloud at the train station, would have explained her imagined relation with Cloud to Barret when Cloud joined AVALANCHE. Barret had no way of knowing whether they were really childhood friends, he had only Tifa's word to go by, which turned out to be false. That same fact holds true for the Sector Seven NPC.

Johnny knew both Cloud and Tifa in Nibleheim, so it would seem he was perhaps a reliable source, if you excluded the fact that he and his friends made fun of Cloud and were only close to Tifa. If you're going by the childhood friends compatability, Johnny would be a better match for Tifa, considering he still has feelings for her as an adult, and they were good friends when they were young, unlike Cloud. He also calls Aeris Cloud's girlfriend, but lets just gloss over that, considering it goes against your point, riiight?

Lastly (for now), let me say this: gaining a few false memories is completely different from becoming someone else. Zack and Cloud don't act the same. Zack was a Zidane, a Tidus. Cloud, throughout the whole game, before and after the lifestream, has always been a Squall. He didn't act any differently, he simply understood his past, and his relation to ShinRa and Sephiroth.

What is so wrong with Aeris starting to like Cloud for his looks? That's how relationships start, unless you're going by the internet. You see someone you're interested in, and you go from there.

I could very well say that Tifa wanted a hero, and wanted Cloud to be that for her. She was so dependent on wanting him do be her knight in shining armor, that when she thought Cloud hadn't come to Nibleheim she was in considerable distress.

Considering Cloud and Tifa weren't close as children and didn't know each other well, I think it's ludicrous to saw they had a "childhood love."

[battousai9439]

Awesome job, plasma...



Goodnight, all... I'll be back tomorrow

[The Stampede]

You know i never knew hypocrisy was an art until i started reading Naughty Tifa/Cloud is My Lover/Holy Maiden's posts. I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult *shrugs shoulders*

LOL, good job, guys. I must say, I'm a Cloti fan all the way, and battousai, I see you go to Destiny_Fulfilled forums. And are a friend of Anastar, correct? I see. *sighs* I know them, and they know me. However, I will not tell you who I am for the sake of staying sane. I'm not a well liked Cloti over there, in fact I am known as one of the most "rabid" ones with no life. No comment on that of course, as it is just biased.



Yeh but we don't want to know you. You're like Simple Plan. Life was happy, pleasant and forgiving and all of a sudden the sky clouded over and depression, aggravation and rage beset us. Except your weapon is hypocrisy instead of thunder and lightning.

Please don't talk yourself up. You imply that rabid means good. No rabid means annoying and ridiculous. Which is true about you. But you do seem to have no life. How many people can register on several forums and regularly post and check them. Hmmm anyone going to put their hand up. And if you have no life leave that hand down. That means you Naughty Tifa.

Just my two cents here: What Anastar writes about Japanese culture is not FACT at all. Because you see, she doesn't know what she's talking about. A friend of mine, who asked a friend of her's what the "I want to meet you scene" means, who is actually Japanese by the way, (she didn't live there until she was 12. ^^; *cough*Naru*cough*)

Oh i see the old *cough* a friend of mine trick. Hehe OFCOURSE. Well you know two can play at that game. Yes you see a friend of a friend of mine is actually Nomura himself! And well he confirmed everything Naru told us. Yep I SWEAR IT"S TRUE! It came from a friend of a friend.

Now secondly being Japanese isn't what counts. It's living in their culture that makes the difference. You see living in that culture means you learn and conceptualise how the Japanese live and think and then in this case gives you an accurate interpretation of the Japanese perspective of FF7. Perhaps you'd realise this if you got a life and read something other than Forums. Just a suggestion.

had not a clue what my friend was talking about. And that just goes to show you, you know, how your little internet posses could be lying.

By your logic that virtually implies that you're posse is lying. You're destroying your own arguments here Holy Maiden.

It is not FACT.

Correct me if i'm wrong but did we ever say it was. No i believe we didn't. We said that it was a generally considered Japanese interpretation. Interpretation NOT fact. That carries more weight than a western interpretation because it is built from the culture the game was made in. Colloquial language and many other things play important roles.

This info comes from somebody that has not spoken Japanese in their 9 lives, and probably sits on their ass all day trying to learn Japanese, ne ne! Why put all this crap into a videogame, no less? Have you ever heard of, let's see, leaving a game open to the player's interpretation? Could you UNDERSTAND THAT?

Ok now i'm just highlighting this for later when i show you your very own hypocrisy. Again we used the word INTERPRETATION. Grab a dictionary please.

Or do you not grasp that concept at all, because all of you are too busy shoving your opinions down other people's throats, following Anastar around mindlessly, clueless. Get this: No,these Clotis Aren't going to listen to you, no we aren't going to worship japanese culture to the point of obsession

Can you define obsession please? Discussion is hardly obsession. Rabid Fangirlism NOW THAT"S OBSESSION!

and we certainly [b]aren't[b] going to go around talking badly about a group of people from another fandom just because of a stupid, videogame coupling.

No ofcourse not you'll just invade a private forum and hurl abuse. If hypocrisy was a liquid no number of towels in the world would dry you off.

Get the hell over it. PLEASE. Tell FF_Goddess that she isn't one to talk about other people like that, when she's 27 and enjoys worhsipping pixels. And anime. She needs a job.{/I}

There is nothing wrong with a bit of anime. Hell it's made for enjoyment and you know i doubt she could get that anime WITHOUT a job. You just need to think before you speak CIML, think before you speak.

[I] <3 But hey, what do I know. I'm just defending myself. I don't wish for people I don't in real life to die a most painful death...But you know, as you can tell now I'm just a BIT ticked off, XD.

Funny that's what you're implying. But then again maybe that's just my INTERPRETATION.

Sorry for that, I just needed to get it off my chest. That wasn't particularly directed at you, just so you know. And yes, I'm the ever so famous, Cloud_Is_My_Lover. Be sure to infrom them of this, I just want them to know.

You're not famous. You're infamous. And not in a good way like Ronnie Biggs. In a bad way like Nader.

Okay, so NOW LMAO I finally get to the part of my rant where I talk about Cloud and Tifa. Why Cloud and Tifa? Simple, they have loved eachother since childhood.

ALRIGHTY excellent some on topic stuff i like it. Ok now where are we. Ah yes childhood love. *sigh* Now it is generally considered that children that age wouldn't know what love is anyway but i'll leave that for now. What we have here is a crush.

Now i know some of you might say Love at first sight etc etc. But you see that old adage is misleading. Love at first sight really means love at first contact first discussion etc which is undoubtedly possible. However love at first well no i'm sorry. I'm sure many men believed they were in love with Paris Hilton at first sight. Hell we know Rick Solomon did. This is however certainly not true. There is no evidence to suggest that Cloud said anything with Tifa before the Well scene. So please tell me you who argue Cloud didn't love Aeris because there was just no time *hits head on wall in frustration* please tell me how this love is then possible? Hmmm oh that's right it's not. It's called a crush.

Tifa liked the idea of the Hero of the man to save her who goes to war and features in the papers for conducting great feats of bravery. That is all the well scene is.

Tifa loved Cloud for what he was, not because he looked like someone she one knew. I just don't SEE CloudxAeris, I really can't. There was no type for a relashionship to develop, and there sure as hell wasn't a bond. Only in your fantasies, XD.

Who Zack? See again it's all about sight. That startled her. But is was him that she fell in love with. It seems she noticed this BECAUSE SHE DAMN WELL SAID she knew she wasn't seeing the real Cloud.

AHA the first hypocrisy and the second. So you just can't see their love huh? Why didn't you say in your own post that the game is open to interpretation YES AHA THAT WAS YOU! Look up. You really do need to learn how to structure and argument Naughty Tifa.

Now secondly no time. Again CLOUD AND TIFA knew each other for a night. That must have been a night on Jupiter for love to florish by your logic.

I think it couldn't get any more clearer for me than in the lifestream sequence. Ah, so beautiful. And oh, if anybody is going to start with that, "Tifa bullied Cloud thing." Just shove it, okay.

Shove what and more importantly where? The Lifestream scene. God damn the lifestream scene was CLoud finding himself and Tifa realising she really did love Cloud. Now for a relationship to form the conset of two SEPARATE parties is needed. On my count i see only one. I am however willing to recount unlike Bush on Ohio.

Tifa was surrounded by a group of boys, and she was popular. Cloud was not. I can obviously see how hard for them it must be to see eachother.

SEE EACH OTHER!? They didn't know each other you crazy Mojimbo. You make no sense dammit no sense. They never talked SHE SAID THAT. She says now i think about it i really didn't know him that well. Are you calling Tifa a liar Holy Maiden. It really wouldn't surprise me.

Exept for that night at the well. Which was sad. T_T *sniff* Now, ya wanna take that crush of wanting to get into SOLDIER for the girl you like, compare it with knowing a girl for a few weeks and..to me, it wouldn't make sense.

He wanted to get into SOLDIER for the girl he thought Tifa was. Ask anyone men will do some strange things for lust and love. In this case...lust. Knowing a girl for a few weeks. *sigh* It all comes down to the conversations. The discussions the actions and the scenes. That's what matters not time. And again if a few weeks is not enough for Cloud and Aeris then tell me how CLoud loved Tifa as a child when he talked to her ONCE!

And what makes it even more sad is that Aeris is dead. Gone. She's a rotting corpse. Nomura stated HIMSELF. HIMSELF. HIMSELF. HIMSELF. That she's not going to return.

Firstly show me that quote. Hell it may very well exist i don't have time to spend my hours searching for quotes on this stuff because i have...oh i better not mention it you might get jealous. Now secondly a little lesson on identity and perception. You see Cloud loves Aeris but importantly we have to remember he loves his own perception of Aeris. So in other words he loves the Aeris in his mind which is as credible as the Aeris in Tifa's mind or as Aeris herself. This means that when Aeris is not actually in front of Cloud he still loves her because he has that perception locked in his mind. If this weren't the case then eerytime Cloud was not in sight of Aeris he would no longer be in love with her. Very simple.

This therefore means that with the death of Aeris Cloud still loves her. That does not end.

NO CLOUD IS NOT AN ANCIENT. NO CLOUD CANNOT GO TO THE PROMISED LAND. QUIT IT WITH ALL THIS BULL. <3 Phew. I'm suprised the LT debate even EXISTED, IMO, for when I first met my first bunch of rabid CloAeris fans, I knew that all hell would break loose. >_>

Ok now this is an important point. You see it is not what is actually possible that is important. It is what Cloud thinks that matters. He believes that he can meet Aeris again. That means he won't stop searching. That means he will never STOP and suddenly start loving Tifa. Get it CIML?

DEBATE. You think what you do is debate. You think you're actually any good at debating??? *sigh*

Ok, now I'm done. Sorry if I sounded rude, once again. I just wanted to let my opinions be heard. Oh, and I have not propelry introduced myself. I'm Naughty_Tifa...obviously. Hehe, hey.

Oh it's ok you don't sound rude...just riducurous. (tell me there are some Seinfeld fans here)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Jesus.
battousai9439. Continuous off-topic banter (spam), continuous double-posting despite numerous reprimands, condescension to other members.
Weimar Pluto Knight VII. Personal taunts toward other members--that is, ridiculing battousai9439 on account of his age.
The Stampede. Great flaming personal attacks all around.
Private Messages will not be sent; your warnings are right here. If you cause any more nonsense akin to that seen in this thread, you will be banned forever and ever. Harasho.

Sorry to everyone else, but please allow at least a good few days before raising a debate on this subject again.