Who would win - Cloud vs Zack

[Ultimate99997]

Who do you think would wim out of cloud and zack, it's pretty difficult to decide because we don't really know their true powers!

[nik0tine]

Cliud, because he's the main character and if he dies it's game over. :(

[Dark Matter]

That's tooo easy. <big>DRAW</big>
Either one of them would give up champion title in order to keep thier friendship.... :)

[Homer Simpson]

It depends what level you were at :p

But i think Cloud would edge it, He would have alot of motivation to prove to Zack how strong he had become.

[theundeadhero]

Zack, because Cloud was a puss who could barely survive the mako infusions. It's safe to say Zack would get stronger in time too, so you can't say "but Cloud got so much stronger".

[redxiiii]

CLOUD cos where zack died trying to kill sephiroht cloud did not

[Jojee]

Um Zack died from being shot by a bunch of soldiers :p

Yeah, definitely Zack. Cos' he's better. And hotter <3

[Trumpet Thief]

chaos: Zack could kill Cloud with his hair anyday!

[Shoden]

i could kill them both with my hair lol

cloud because he has the ultimate buster sword and materia combos zack would be annihalated straight away

[theundeadhero]

Zack had a stronger mako reaction. If he was still alive Cloud wouldn't have a chance with materia.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Play Ehrgeiz and find out firsthand.

Or, you know, don't.

[UltimateSpamGrover]

Cloud "is" Zack

Cloud has Zack's memories

So it would be a Draw.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Wrong.

Cloud doesn't have ALL of Zack's memories; he doesn't think he was born in Gongaga or anything like that. The only thing from Zack's past that Cloud believed belonged in his own past was the whole SOLDIER thing.

[UltimateSpamGrover]

What I mean is:

Whatever Zack told Cloud on the truck heading to Midgar is what Cloud believed to be his identity.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Sure, but that has no bearing if you're thinking about Cloud as he is near the end of the game, by which time he's in his right mind again.

[UltimaLimit]

Early on: Zack, because he's a buff SOLDIER and Cloud's a motion-sick weakling.

Later on: Cloud. Even if you ignore the facts that Cloud has his sword and Zack gets killed, Cloud's Omnislash is enough to take out Sephiroth in the final one-on-one. Sephiroth can kill Zack. Cloud can kill Sephiroth. You do the math.

[Sefie1999AD]

I think Cloud would win. Even when Cloud didn't have any special Mako powers, he defeated and killed Sephiroth whereas Zack lost to him. And near the end of the game, Cloud has grown so strong that he'd defeat Zack in a fair duel.

[Polaris]

Cloud... Duh.... :lol:

[Zante]

At the beggining Zack was storger. He made it into Soldier and Cloud didn't. Also it was Zack who had to get Cloud out of Nibelheim. Who would be stronger at the end of the game is questionable, bacause Zack too could train, find weapons, materia etc.

[Dante WolfWood]

ok, let me start:

First of all, Zack WAS Stronger than cloud by FAR!!! The reason cloud defeated seph at the reactor was bc while sephy was getting jenova, and after defeating tifa and Zack, cloud stabbed him in the back, injurying him Greatly. Thats why sephy only grabbed her head, bc he was TOO injured! thats why cloud was able to defeat him on the walkway in the reactor, sephy was injured.

Second, At the beginning, cloud was not as weak as you think, cloud was an EXCEPTIONAL fighter, due to all the fights he got into as a child, the reason he didnt make it to soldier was bc, his body REJECTED the mako "drowning" (dont know any other way to put it :p) thats why he wasnt allowed into soldier.

third: Zack and Cloud revieved the same mako drowning and Jenova injections AFTER the reactor incident, but Cloud was way too weak for the jenova cells, so, basicly, he lost his mind, while for Zack, all that happened to him was that he became alot stronger. Zack escaped bringing cloud with him ,protecting him on the way. after killing, i dont know, 20 enemies at the same time (:p), Zack turned around to check up on cloud and was pireced by a hail of bullets.(which I believe that NIETHER cloud or spehy could have taken that in their normal forms). So Zack died, cloud took his memories (from the reactor and now on) and his outfit and sword, and there you go.

I hope I cleared some things up.

so who do I think would win?

umm, at the beginning: I'm not sure, remember, cloud was an EXCEPTIONAL fighter, his body just couldnt take the mako

after the injections: Zack, no question, he excepted the injections WAYYYY better than cloud

if Zack survived and at the end of the game where cloud was in his right mind: I have no clue, I would like to think cloud, but I'm leaning toward Zack.


Hope it didnt seem like I was rambling. :p

[finalheaven]

er...cloud...

[lord shishio]

Cloud, dude!
All he'd have to do is gore him with his hair, instant kill!
(Wonder how much hair gel he uses)

[UltimaLimit]

Didn't Zack have spiky hair, too?

[lord shishio]

Uhh, yah, nevermind

[sayen]

cloud cant kill zack and zack cant kill could therd both die when one ot the other died

[Perducci]

Spoiler: Omnislash COULD kill Sephiroth, but if you leave it, Sephiroth attacks you, then you counter and kill him in one hit. So Sephiroth would lose straight away if it was a three way match. I'm voting that Zack would win, because he'd probably have the same limit breakers as Cloud, but they'd be better, as Cloud probably stole Zacks limit breaks, as well as memories.

[Syncope]

Zack reminds of Goku SS4 so he would win.

[Masamune·1600]

Here's an analysis of the theoretical conflict.

What we know: Zack was a member of SOLDIER, First Class. This means he was fit for SOLDIER, and suffered no crucial or debilitating reaction to Mako or Jenova injections.

Cloud was never a member of SOLDIER; his recalled experiences were based on those of his friend Zack. However, he was built like a member of SOLDIER. It can be assumed that he didn't make it primarily because of adverse reaction to the Jenova injections.


Cloud: I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me
five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but
never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made
up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if
it were true.

Barret: Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a llusion, I'd say.

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

Cloud's problem was not a function of pure combat. Nor was it a problem that involved Mako showering in any way. As a matter of fact, Cloud likely bares a remarkable resistance to Mako. Note the following:


Barret: So what about him? You know...... Cloud?

Doctor: I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a case this
bad. An immerse amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain all at
once...... No normal human could survived it...... It's a miracle he did!

Now, with all due respect to Zack, the so-called "proto-Cloud" of the Kalm flashback was obviously based on Zack. Literally. Cloud took on all of his characteristics, such as having no issues with motion sickness. However, that also means that Cloud's battle capabilities were really those of Zack: Level 1, insignificant HP, no magic, and no Limit Break.

However, we must also assume that the same conditions apply to the young Cloud: Level 1, insignificant HP, and no magic. Cloud might have developed Braver, but since he would have had a gun at that point, I doubt it.

If the battle were to take place at this early point, it would appear to have the makings of a draw...except for one point which I shall address in a moment. Bare this in mind, however: Cloud was, according to my theory, not in SOLDIER because of the Jenova, not because he wasn't a sufficiently talented fighter (or a potentially talented fighter).

Now, we have at this point an apparent draw. However, we see both Cloud and Zack confront Sephiroth in the Mako Reactor. Zack, as we all know, didn't fare so well. Cloud, on the other hand, came out the victor. After being stabbed by the Masamune, a sword that reputedly only Sephiroth could wield, Cloud took it by the blade and hurled it, along with Sephiroth, into the depths of the reactor.

However, this does not immediately doom Zack's cause. It could be argued that Cloud had greater impetus to defeat Sephiroth; it was his hometown that Sephiroth destroyed, his mother who was killed during the calamity, and Tifa who was injured -badly- by Sephiroth earlier. Nevertheless, this leads to an argument that I feel would put Cloud back in the lead, so to speak. That argument is as follows: in FFVII, Cloud was very clearly interested in what people thought of him. If it was indeed an emotional outburst that allowed him to throw Seph down, then the intense desire to prove himself would, in my mind, prove the deciding factor in a conflict between Zack and the young Cloud.

Zack dies before progressing further as a character. A fair comparison beyond their young selves would, therefore, be difficult to determine. However, consider the following:

Zack has no Limit Break.
Cloud, having a sword, would have developed a Limit Break at this point.
Advantage, Cloud.

The following is a possible reason for the fact, but is not critical to the argument.

From a certain scene in Beginner's Hall, we see even a bully's victim execute a Limit Break. They should be available, with proper weapon, early on. "But Sephiroth had no Limit Break!" you cry. Very true. As a matter of fact, the members of SOLDIER you fight in battle, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Class, also have no Limit Breaks. This is clearly theoretical, but it may be that acceptance of Jenova sterilizes Limit potential, so to speak. "But Vincent..." Yes, Vincent was treated with Jenova. However, his case can be argued in one of two ways. Either he didn't accept the Jenova, partially explaining his strange Limit physiology, or he did accept the Jenova. That would explain why none of his Limits involve a gun. Rather, his Limits are the manifestation of the experimentation.

The point is that Cloud, imbued with Limit potential, would have an advantage in terms of a later-stages battle, even if Zack were to grow in combat ability at Cloud's rapid pace.

What I think really seals the deal in this argument, however, is Sephiroth. Ignoring everything that happened in Nibelheim, let's look to the "final battle" of the game. Cloud vs. Sephiroth. Cloud cannot, no matter how hard you try, lose this battle. I simply cannot see, in a real world-style duel, Zack defeating Sephiroth. By extension, then, Cloud would triumph in this later stage of the theoretical contest.

[Dolentrean]

ok this whole post is one huge spoiler that is slightly ludicrous, a far fetched bizarre theory and possibly very misguided, it is only a result of my obsession with this game and playing far to many times.

first thing first, the idea behind this is Zack is not dead, he was shot by a inhuman amount of bullets, and should have died yes, (like I said a crazy idea) but Cloud was dubbed a failed experiment while Zack was not. Zack would have been given a tattoo, and since he was the first attempted at a copy of Sephy he would have been given the tattoo number 1.
Vincent was treated with Jenova before Zack but Sepheroth would still be young at this time and also he was merely experimented on since he was to be dealt with by Hojo for screwing around with the Jenova project and trying to stop them from using Lutricia. ok so Zack was considered a success, correct?
Now it is well known that the effects of the tubes they were in at the bottom of the Shinra mansion had healing properties. so Zack could have still been suffering from the effects of the Mako-JENOVA fusion. Look at Cloud, he had scratched his message into his cell just as Zack had on his, Cloud was still conscious in the tube yet may have gone into his condition after being cast out of the cell and not being fully recovered sending his body into shock.
Ok early in the game, soon after you meet Arith and before you go to her house, there is a large metal tube in the slums, enter the tube and there is a man sitting there with black hair , he is rocking back and forth and if you approach him Arith will get in your way and say something like "No, he is in a very poor condition, we haven’t been able to get him a doctor, he also has a tattoo of the number 1 on his arm!" after she gets out of the way talk to him and he mutters incoherently, he is also gone after meteor is summoned and you get the key to sector 7 and return to that area!

Please tell me what you think of this theory is it bizarre and impossible or is there a slim possibility.

to stay on topic: Cloud drops sword and forfeits rather than attack his friend in his incoherent state!

[Masamune·1600]

The man in the pipe had the number 2 as a tattoo, not the number 1. This kind of makes it difficult for it to be Zack, considering Zack didn't have a tattoo.

He's gone because he left to attempt to reach the Reunion. The man next to the pipe implies this.

It was Cloud who suffered an adverse reaction to the Jenova cells, not Zack. If Cloud had recovered from the delirium, there's no way Zack would still be suffering from it, considering it never affected him in the first place.

There is no plausible theory that links the man in the pipe to Zack. Zack is dead.

[matt89]

Could would win, Zack got killed by bullets. Cloud gets shot all the time and survives ^_^

Clound also kicked Sephiroth's ass.

[Halenite]

Cloud, because Zack is dead.

[Perducci]

Hmm... I wonder...

If the average 'Beginner' SOLDIER member is level 1...
What level are normal ShinRa soldiers? Like, -10 or something?

[Mercen-X]

Zack: SOLDIER 1st Class
Cloud: Grunt

Zack: Mako Immunity from overexposure to Mako Liquid
Cloud: Mako Madness and amnesia due to overexposure to Mako Liquid

Zack: Original owner of Buster Sword
Cloud: Originally equipped with the Touph Ring

Zack: Couldn't get near injured Sephiroth
Cloud: Survived being skewered by Sephiroth

Zack and Cloud were awake in the Mako tanks, but Cloud had been SKEWERED!!! Of course he lost his mind!

Zack: Failed Aerith
Cloud: Kept promise to Tifa

Zack beat back an entire militia before being shot in the back while checking on Cloud.

The results are wholly inconclusive. Zack and Cloud, like Squall and Seifer or Sora and Riku would have remained equal rivals for the rest of their lives. Do any of you watch Dragonball GT? Vegeta has been trying all his life to defeat Goku-Kakkarot but they always come out equal. Face it. There are just sometimes when a victor cannot exist, despite your personal preferences.

[Masamune·1600]

Most of your information is either wrong, or only partially true.

Cloud's "amnesia" has nothing to do with Mako. Among artificial processes, it was the Jenova cell injections that affected him.


Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

Significant text was bolded for emphasis.

We have no evidence that Zack has any kind of special resistance to Mako. Cloud really did suffer severe overexposure; he floated through the Lifestream! As a matter of fact, Cloud arguably demonstrates notable Mako resistance.


Barret: So what about him? You know...... Cloud?

Doctor: I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a case this
bad. An immerse amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain all at
once...... No normal human could survived it...... It's a miracle he did!

Significant text bolded for emphasis.

While Zack was not as affected by Hojo's experimentation, this is due to Cloud's reaction to Jenova, not to Mako. For that matter, Cloud's having been stabbed played no role in his incapacitation. Zack had also been wounded by Sephiroth.

Cloud was not the original owner of the Touph Ring. If you'll look to the Kalm flashback, you will see that particular item is equipped on Sephiroth.

There's no evidence that Zack successfully beat back an entire militia, only to be shot while tending to Cloud and not paying attention. The flashback does nothing to indicate he fought vast numbers.

Zack couldn't have failed Aeris, because he had no actual obligation to her. If he does, the game neither states it outright nor even provides contextual clues that such is the case. All we know is that they were once involved in a relationship.

Cloud not only surivived being "skewered" by the Masamune, but took the weapon (which reputedly only Sephiroth could wield) by its blade and hurled it and Seph into the depths of the reactor.


Not that it in any way relates to Final Fantasy VII or speculated duels therein, but Squall clearly eclipses Seifer during the course of Final Fantasy VIII.

[Mercen-X]

I like you masamune1600, you've got a lot to say.
You're right, Sephiroth was the wimp who needed to be enhanced by a Touph Ring. I never used accessories like that throughout the game.

I like to think Zack had an obligation to Aeris and fought off a horde of militia because he is actually the character I relate to. I should relate to Cloud on an emotional basis, but I can't help thinking of it as physical. Zack and I look alike, I admit I don't have his whacky hair and a lot of kids probably look like him. Cloud looks like my deceased younger brother. I guess I just think that game compensates for what I wished had happened in reality. That I had died protecting my brother.


Not that it in any way relates to Final Fantasy VII or speculated duels therein, but Squall clearly eclipses Seifer during the course of Final Fantasy VIII.

You're right again . . . and in hindsight, if it were a battle of wills, Sora would trounce Riku.

[2020VINCEVAL]

:shoot: :chop: :trout: :megaman: :chef: :nibbles: :hot: :greenking: which means zack! duh!

then again........... cloud has the ultima weapon.................but..........................zack has the hair.........................tough one................

Do not double post. Use the edit delete button. Also avoid posting with so many smilies. ~ Leeza

[nirojan]

Cloud "is" Zack

Cloud has Zack's memories



are you sure about that???

[~GoDD~]

CLOUD hands down!!!
he took sephiroth's sword right through his chest, then lifted sephiroth up and through him over the edge, now thats strength!!!!!!!!!

[DaremihC]

Teh Lavos: You did the counter thing too? I HATED THAT!!

[Ross]

Since most of the things Cloud though he did during the story were mainly Zack, and Cloud had some kind of weird memory... I'm guessing Zack would win. But if you mean after the whole storyline is over and Cloud is a veteran, it would probably be a pretty even fight.

[Mercen-X]

Cloud IS Zack . . . gone Super Saiyan! lol