"Private servers are illegal, don't advertise them here"

[Doomgaze]

Does EoFF even have a policy on what is and is not tolerated in regards to piracy? Do try to phrase your answer in such a way that explains said policy while justifying the fact that EoFF hosts several pirated NES, SNES, and GB roms, as well as 38 pirated music albums.

[Baloki]

EoFF doesn't host pirated content on the front site, it complies with the law saying that you should not keep the material for more then 24 hours after downloading it unless you own an orginal copy of the item, and reguarding the piracy matters I assume they don't want people saying, well heres where you can download illigal stuff and then sell it on at your local black market.

Black market goods are illigal, and so is advertising them :p Probably >.> <.<

[Doomgaze]

"EoFF doesn't host pirated content on the front site,"

FFdownloads.com is part of EoFF, as it clearly points out on the top of the page, and is seamlessly worked into the navbar on the main site. Regardless, even if it wasn't, it would be EoFF advertising a site that contains pirated material :)

"complies with the law saying that you should not keep the material for more then 24 hours after downloading it unless you own an orginal copy of the item,"

That is a myth.

[Yamaneko]

Yup.

I think a good policy would be, "the EoFF site staff may put up and host copyrighted material, but any other parties, be them forum or other, may not". If Cid wants to have ROMs and soundtracks on the mainsite then that's his decision. And if legal troubles ever do come this way, I'm sure he would deal with them. Everyone else should be subject to a no advertising illegal content rule since Cid cannot directly control what others post.

[Psychotic]

I like pirates. Yay EoFF!

[RSL]

"complies with the law saying that you should not keep the material for more then 24 hours after downloading it unless you own an orginal copy of the item

I'm pretty sure that there is no such law, and that putting that on your website will do nothing for you if someone decides to take legal action.

Yams summed everything else up.

[Del Murder]

I consider the main page separate from the forums. If Sean affiliated with a porn site or if the main page had nudie Tifa pics or something, I would still erase porn from these forums and treat it like nothing different. For roms, I usually just close it, unless they are asking for the always elusive FFIII or some old ass game. I would treat a link to a pirating site just the same.

[Erdrick Holmes]

NUDIE TIFA PICS. WHERE!?!

Damn you Del, you got me all excited.

[Baloki]

I'm pretty sure that there is no such law

Sorry EU Directive, but here in Europe they are the same thing.

[TheAbominatrix]

So much for a productive thread in feedback.

[Raistlin]

So EoFF supports the use of emulators and ROMs...but then again it <i>doesn't</i>?

M'kay.

[Yamaneko]

Yes. This isn't a democracy.

[Carnage]

delete this before the governement sees :shifty:

[Samuraid]

Heh, this is less conspicuous than ffdownloads.com itself. :p

[Shlup]

Dear Doom and Raist: Your high horse needs water and rest; maybe you should give it a break.

Like Del said, the forums and site are seperate. Most of us have nothing to do with the frontsite. We allow threads that discuss pirated material, but not threads asking for pirated material because that's illegal. Obviously having them on EoFF is illegal also, so feel free to PM Cid asking them to take them off of his site if that'll make you feel like a big man.

*gets cranky when she hasn't had din din*

[Dr Unne]

From what I know, gaming companies are quite aware that EoFF (and other such sites) exist and offer ROMS etc. If EoFF had a FfXi WaReZ CrAcKz section I might see there being an issue here, but as it stands now, I don't really. If Sean decided to spam the MB up with porn tomorrow, he could do it. If anyone else does it, they're banned. That's how it works.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

Oh, Shlup. You're always cranky.

[Cid]

When Square tells me to take it down, I will. In the meantime, it pays for all your poor saps to sit here and waste your days on this message board.

[Yamaneko]

I've been kind of between jobs... for the past eighteen years. :cry:

[Agent Proto]

When Square tells me to take it down, I will. In the meantime, it pays for all your poor saps to sit here and waste your days on this message board.

I love you too, Cid. :weep:

[Cid]

Considering the fact that we've been the home to several Square-sponsored events, I don't think we're too high on their <img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif> list.

[Raistlin]

I've been kind of between jobs... for the past eighteen years. :cry:
xDDD


Considering the fact that we've been the home to several Square-sponsored events, I don't think we're too high on their <img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif>list
They're just lulling you into a false sense of security, Sean.

[Psychotic]

Sorry EU Directive, but here in Europe they are the same thing.EU Directives are not directly applicable into a nation's law (But the effect of them is), although a citizen can rely on an unimplemented directive against an arm of the state (Which EoFF is not) using the Francovich principle and seeing as neither Square nor Eyes on FF is European this post was entirely pointless.

Of course I'm probably totally wrong with that stuff but eh, it was LAST year Law. You can't expect me to remember stuff from a year ago clearly. :cool:

[MecaKane]

Wait till Sony Music Japan or whatever label they put their soundtracks on find out. :eek:

[Cid]

Wait till Sony Music Japan or whatever label they put their soundtracks on find out. :eek:

Funny thing: from what I understand, their label went out of business or something.

[Raistlin]

Funny thing: from what I understand, their label went out of business or something.
x-freakin-D

[Endless]

Yeah, they bellyflopped, massive copies from Asia ruined the thing (I'm not talking about people like you and me getting mp3s, I'm talking about companies selling them to import stores to be sold as legit to customers, except a little cheaper than the genuine Digicube discs). That said, it doesn't mean it's in the public domain, someone (the composer for example) still owns the rights. Even when DigiCube was alive, they were tolerant of sites putting the music for download, as long as you didn't do it commercially.

[Samuraid]

Technically it is illegal, but many record labels would probably not even bother trying to shut down sites because it likely involves a losing battle. And as a result, people dislike the record label even more.

[Endless]

Actually, no, it's very easy for the records company (in the USA) to make you remove offending content. Cease & Desist leters usually do the trick, because if you ignore them when you're really offering copyrighted stuff that the company owns, you're gonna be smacked (especially with the DMCA now).

[Samuraid]

Actually, no, it's very easy for the records company (in the USA) to make you remove offending content.

I did not say it would be hard to do. I've seen it happen to a number of sites and projects. When I said "losing battle" I was refering the overall issue of sharing copywritten material. It remains next to impossible for such labels to stop all illegal file sharing. (i.e. the overall process is a losing battle) If you don't believe that, take a look at past issues.

[Mr. Graves]

Oh, Shlup. You're always *cranky.

*cliche.

[Citizen Bleys]

EoFF Forums has always had a rule that no illegal material could be posted on-site. I myself have closed numerous threads offering links to ROMs--even from members I have sent ROMs to or received ROMs from directly. If it's happening in the forums, it's non-grata, but there's never been any argument with peddling technically illegal "abandonware" type content through other means, such as private messaging or AIM.

It would seem to me that the sole exception to EoFF's stance on such matters is the fact that EoFF carries hundreds of advertisements for companies like IGE and mysupersales that sell FFXI gil. Although IGE will protest that what they're doing is not illegal--by Hong Kong law (haha, law in Hong Kong, that's funny)--it is, in principle, illegal as any ingame currency is the intellectual property of Square-Enix. So really, such gil-selling companies are selling something that belongs to someone else, plus such real-currency transactions are against Square-Enix's terms of service.

Basically, the entire premise under which such gil sellers operate is nothing more than one of Confucius's straw dogs, backed up by the complete and utter lack of law enforcement with relation to internet matters in such nations as Russia and Hong Kong.

So, Shlup, high horses have absolutely nothing to do with this. This is a matter of the old EoFF's principles being touted in the new EoFF, which is in active support of a bunch of smug bandits hiding out from the law by headquartering themselves where there is none. I'd like to see a return of the old, principled EoFF, but supporting gilsellers while laying the smackdown on people running private servers is pretty two-faced and hypocritical.

Unne has it more right--Sean can do whatever the devil he wants, whether it's right or not. If anybody's on a high horse, it's those of you who are trying to make the staff out to be 100% right 100% of the time when double-standards are being liberally applied on a regular basis.

The staff is the law here, and you can allow or disallow whatever you want--but can you lay off just a bit on trying to spoon-feed us made-up bullsnikky that doesn't make a whit of sense?

EDIT: I should add that I do support the decision to remove the private server link, although I just may dodge around the restriction myself in a way that is beyond the staff's control. I think, in this instance, it was an oldbie staff member applying the ethics of the old, principled EoFF, which is commendable. What is irking me so much in this case is the attempt to throw in made-up after-the-fact justification. This started out to be a supporting-the-staff post, but I went off on a wild tangent over the gilseller ads. Even though I went off topic, though, there is nothing in that rant that I would unsay.

[Baloki]

I never mentioned ad's :p

[Citizen Bleys]

Never pluralize with an apostrophe!

[Psychotic]

Always end sentences with a full-stop or a period, depending on what you refer to them as.

[Baloki]

Always degrammerise :D

[Raistlin]

Bleys...all I have to say is...I love you, man. :love: :love: :love:

[Citizen Bleys]

Get your hand out of there!

You're turning into BoB

[Rainecloud]

I love this part of the forum. :)

[Raistlin]

Get your hand out of there!

You're turning into BoB
No, I'm much worse. Don't you remember that convo I posted in my LJ between me and Lynx?

*humps Bleys's leg*

[eestlinc]

I'm going to donate all my ff11 gil to tsunami relief.

[Raistlin]

I actually did that with my UO gold. As did Doomy. Representatives from EA, while not able to "official condone it," said they were very impressed with the whole group of us.

But I digress. xD

[Citizen Bleys]

Why donate ingame currency when you can just send real money? There are hundreds of different organizations accepting donations for tsunami relief even here in Moncton, and that's a hole in the ground.

I'd rather do that then use ingame currency, as that is ethically reprehensible if not technically illegal. Cash money belongs to me in reality, whereas gil belongs to Square-Enix. I'd not feel the least bit accomplished donating somebody else's property to any cause.

[RSL]

How does donating in game currency even help? I guess I'm a little lost on this one.

[Citizen Bleys]

Companies like IGE will buy ingame currency for real money, although the price they buy at is much lower than the selling price, hence my preference for donating real money directly through UN-sponsored organizations.

The amount of money that companies like IGE pay is significant to people in many Asian countries due to the exchange rate. This is why many of the gilsellers in FFXI are Chinese--in China, the IGE equivalent of 1 million gil is enough to support a person comfortably for something like a month. But if you give a gilseller 1 mil, they get something like $25, whereas IGE will charge me $40-$50 for the same 1 million gil, meaning that IGE is getting fat and the people in China are just getting enough to get by. If you want to donate, it is much better to send the $50 directly, that way IGE gets nothing for being bandits who sell other people's property, and the people in the tsunami-devastated countries get the full benefit of what the game player is giving up.

[eestlinc]

which is why i was making fun of the whole thing

[MecaKane]

Also people who buy game money are really dumb, and lazy.

[Raistlin]

Why donate ingame currency when you can just send real money? There are hundreds of different organizations accepting donations for tsunami relief even here in Moncton, and that's a hole in the ground.
Because I had 5 million UO gold on a shard that I don't even play on anymore. I was giving away something of no value to me.


I'd rather do that then use ingame currency, as that is ethically reprehensible if not technically illegal.
Do you even know the praise we got from EA? They loved it. If you don't believe me, read my LJ entry entitled "Wanna know why UO rocks?" or something.


Companies like IGE will buy ingame currency for real money, although the price they buy at is much lower than the selling price, hence my preference for donating real money directly through UN-sponsored organizations.
Crazy Joe auctioned off all the gold on Ebay. A good portion of it went for above the market price - some twice the normal value.


If you want to donate, it is much better to send the $50 directly, that way IGE gets nothing for being bandits who sell other people's property, and the people in the tsunami-devastated countries get the full benefit of what the game player is giving up.
I would never sell anything to those big-named money-grubbers. :p

[Psychotic]

From pirated games and music to Raistlin's made-up sexual fantasies.

Only in Feedback.

[Raistlin]

:love: :love: :love:

[Doomgaze]

Yeah, the gold sold at or above market rate on eBay, and the proceeds were donated to the Red Cross. It had nothing to do with the big gold brokers.

This "ethically reprehensible if not technically illegal" charity has raised over $4,400 so far.

[Raistlin]

Sample auctions(including final sale price): shard - amount - auction title - final sale price

Note: UO gold is worth approximately $7-8 per million on most shards(exception listed here is Siege, where gold is $15/mil).

Siege $4,000,000 4 Mill Siege $60.00
Siege $4,000,000 4 Mill Siege $120.00

Great Lakes $5,000,000 5 Mill Great lakes $35.00
Great Lakes $2,000,000 2 Mill Great lakes $30.00

Europa $5,000,000 5 Mill Europa $34.00
Europa $5,000,000 5 Mill Europa $71.02

Baja $5,000,000 5 Mill baja $36.00
Baja $5,000,000 5 Mill Baja $63.00

Atlantic $5,000,000 5 Mill Atlantic $34.00
Atlantic $4,000,000 4 Mill Atlantic $91.00


Info found at http://www.gamerscharity.com/ultimaonlineredcross.htm

[-N-]

In the meantime, it pays for all your poor saps to sit here and waste your days on this message board.
These are quite possibly the greatest words spoken on these message boards.

[Jojee]

Wezly shaves his private areas.

PS I like pirates too ^_^

[Citizen Bleys]

Yeah, the gold sold at or above market rate on eBay, and the proceeds were donated to the Red Cross. It had nothing to do with the big gold brokers.

This "ethically reprehensible if not technically illegal" charity has raised over $4,400 so far.

If people were paying over market value it's because they knew that the proceeds were going to tsunami relief and should have donated directly to the Red Cross, cut out the middleman, and not buy and sell someone else's property.

It's easy to say that the ends justify the means, but once you start thinking like that, where does it stop?

[Raistlin]

If people were paying over market value it's because they knew that the proceeds were going to tsunami relief and should have donated directly to the Red Cross, cut out the middleman, and not buy and sell someone else's property.
Let's see...what do you think they thought was better...giving $40 to Red Cross and not getting anything in return, or giving $40 and getting cool stuff in a game that these people play 24/7?


It's easy to say that the ends justify the means, but once you start thinking like that, where does it stop?
When the corporation owning the game praises us, I don't think we did anything wrong.

[Doomgaze]

This isn't FFXI, EA doesn't pretend that the virtual economy is independent of the real economy, nor does it expect the players to.

[TheAbominatrix]

Not to mention that hundreds of places are auctioning things to raise money. A few local radio stations are auctioning signed instruments, concert tickets, and cds, with full proceeds going to relief funds.

[Citizen Bleys]

See, the radio stations are auctioning off things that were either owned by them or donated to them for that specific cause. That is entirely commendable.

This is not the same thing as selling something that a) does not exist except in a purely abstract way, and b) even in said abstraction, is the property of another person or organization.

And WesLY, S-E is not *pretending* anything. Gil is legitimately their intellectual property, no ifs ands or buts. Just because it has been assigned a market value due to the management of it being worth something to somebody does not eliminate S-E's intellectual property rights. That's like saying that it's OK to sell drugs because they have a value to someone. You don't sell drugs, do you WesLY? Would you support a crack cocaine dealer who was selling drugs in schoolyards to raise money for tsumani relief?

[TheAbominatrix]

I was refering to your complaints about the 'middle man'. I really dont care about your complaints otherwise.

[Citizen Bleys]

Those radio stations aren't middlemen. They're not keeping a cut for themselves. If they were middlemen, the Red Cross themselves would qualify. My definition of a middleman is someone who's taking a cut for themselves--otherwise the only acceptable method of helping out would be to swim on over there and hand over a wad of cash to a tsunami victim in person.

[TheAbominatrix]

Then who, in Raist's situation, is the middle man? Who is taking a cut for themselves?

[Citizen Bleys]

The middleman isn't an issue in Raist's situation, as he's pointed out. It's being directly sold by a player and 100% of the funds is sent to the Red Cross. It remains, however, unethical as people are buying and selling something that is someone else's property.

[TheAbominatrix]

I'm aware of that. I am, however, addressing your comment about 'cutting out the middleman'. If there's no middleman in the situation, what's to cut out? I'm certainly not the one who brought up the issue of a middleman.

[Raistlin]

The middleman isn't an issue in Raist's situation, as he's pointed out. It's being directly sold by a player and 100% of the funds is sent to the Red Cross. It remains, however, unethical as people are buying and selling something that is someone else's property.
Yes, EA's. And EA praised us highly. So what's the problem again?

[TasteyPies]

No servation without justification!

[Citizen Bleys]

EA praised you unofficially and after the fact. The choice was made to sell other people's property without the knowledge or consent of the party owning said property.

If EA had consented and sponsored the event, it would be entirely commendable as well.

[Raistlin]

EA praised Crazy Joe and everyone who helped out, at the <i>very beginning of the bloody event</i>. Dammit, now you're going to make me look up threads.

HOLY CRAP UO.HALL HAS A LOT OF POSTS *searches*

*whew* found it

First off, Crazy Joe is an <i>administrator</i> at the official UO boards.

Secondly, Wilki is the official EA representative on the forums. He tells us the progress of bug fixes, can talk directly to the dev team, hints on news, responds to any feedback/criticism, etc. There are a couple members of the dev team itself who post on the forums, but they mainly stick to their forum.

Dammit, Wilki, I know you posted in here somewhere. >=o

Oh yeah, and I dunno if the one caused the other, but Wilki made it sound like Crazy Joe's event helped spark EA donating $250,000 to tsunami relief, along with doubling whatever donations any employee gave independently.

Just where the hell did he post? >=o

Bah, can't find it. Too many new threads. O_o Doomy, where's that thread where it talks about ebay first taking off the auctions? I tried to search for it, but it kept timing out.


Anyway, this event sparked a game-wide notice of Tsunami relief. This has brought it, as of today, over <i>$4,600</i>. It was praised by EA staff during the event(still on-going), has generated tons of money, and has put the tsunami relief effort in the faces of thousands of people who probably wouldn't have donated under normal circumstances. How the <i>hell</i> is this a bad thing? Would it have been better if it not happened at all? Give me a break.

[Doomgaze]

Are timeshares illegal, or immoral?


The reason this arguement is going on is because you come from a gaming background where the gil-sellers are breaking the rules, and IGE's gil farmers interfere with your play by camping the major spawns. That's not really a problem in UO. The only major item I can think of that really has a problem with eBayers are power scrolls, and those are only found on the PvP facet. See, if you don't like the people selling the scrolls on eBay, you kill them and take the scrolls for yourself. It's that simple. I realize that S-E has policies against this, but EA and whatever's left of Origin DON'T.