The Rinoa-Ultimecia theory. [Archive] - Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums

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Destai

02-06-2005, 07:20 PM

Ok this is the first time IVe heard of it and I have to ask WTF? Why would she be Ultimecia?

Shoden

02-06-2005, 08:26 PM

she wouldnt be and the other thing is that if she is a sorceress she could keep Squall and her friends alive as long as she could and the other thing is that if she was then why didnt she react to squall?

rubah

02-06-2005, 08:37 PM

She isn't.

You may lay your tinfoil hat on the counter there, and remember, you saw NOTHING.

Shoden

02-06-2005, 08:53 PM

which bozos made this crap up anyway

Flamethrower

02-06-2005, 10:25 PM

Check out this webpage (http://www.square-x.com/news/169), it shows the points that support the theory as well as counter-arguments against the theory.

Shoden

02-06-2005, 10:33 PM

well that just strengthens up the truth that Rinoa and Ultimecia are different

ShivaBlizzard8

02-06-2005, 11:30 PM

All you need to know is that it is a theory which cannot be proven nor disproven. It is a matter of personal belief, and it never fails to make a lot of people really, really angry for some reason. One of the reasons why we try not to bring it up much. :p

Flamethrower

02-06-2005, 11:35 PM

Yeah, I never really understood why the Rinoa=Ultimecia debates always get so heated. Some people would slit their mama's throat if she disagreed with their stance on the theory.

I like to believe the theory (even if Square says it's false) simply because it would be quite a twist and makes the game more interesting.

Destai

02-06-2005, 11:42 PM

When I first heard it I was pretty pissed off at it too. It reminded me off people who go against all the facts to say vincent is sephs father when he is officially hojo. Im growing more fond of the theory though. Like you said (i think >.<) It adds a layer of depth to the story.

Shockwave Pulsar

02-07-2005, 12:16 AM

I think the reason this debates are so heated or aggressive, is because many opinionated people usually post in them. Personally, as a believer, when i see someone who says something like "She is not, case closed", it really makes my blood boil. I used to try to defend the theory but now i just shut up, it's pointless to argue with people so close-minded. We should all accept what ShivaBlizzard8 said.
There are the facts, if you want to believe it, then do so, if not, then don't, but be respectful of other people and don't act as if your opinion was the universal truth.

§håd0w

02-07-2005, 12:24 AM

And it should be put to rest since it is clearly stated in the FAQ about the R=U debate. We should all give this a rest before a flamefest starts.

GhandiOwnsYou

02-07-2005, 01:40 AM

§håd0w

02-07-2005, 01:43 AM

Because they are not!!!!

PearlRose

02-07-2005, 06:26 AM

Agreed. Though, if someone feels like looking into it outside of the Forum, FanFiction.net has an absolutely OUTSTANDING Fic on it called Mirrorfeather ( http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2197713/1/ ). Tis a quick, 3 chap read and provides a very plausible and detailed account of how R=U could hace come to be. I myself choose to neither support or deny. there are much more aggravating things to be argued.

Ie: those folks who keep saying Squall and Rinoa are half siblings. YARG!!! STOP IT!!

Heh! That fic was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read the topic title. :sweat:

Anyway, yeah... I'm not sure what to make of the theory. Somedays, I think it makes sense. Others, I don't care for it much.

Ditto on the "Stop it!" comment too. ;)

Sir Bahamut

02-07-2005, 11:35 AM

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

If you want another take on it....

Flamethrower

02-07-2005, 02:48 PM

That was a great read, Sir Bahamut. Well done. Opened my eyes to a lot of new stuff.

Shoden

02-07-2005, 04:22 PM

meh i refuse to believe it because of common sense that Ultimecia has long thin BLACK wings grey hair and the way she almost killed Rinoa itd make no sense but dif ppl have dif oppinions and will argue to death to defend or argue towards it

amratis

02-07-2005, 07:51 PM

Cant for the life of me remember where but I've read extremely long posts theorizing the Rinoa-Ultamecia theory. It's possible, its just one of those crazy time paradox loop thingys that is almost impossible to understand. ;)

Sir Bahamut

02-07-2005, 08:23 PM

Well, there have been such topics on this forum, some time ago now. There have also been huge discussions on Gamefaqs, as well as other places.

But really, it's such a controversial issue that there's bound to have been at least one huge debate on it on any FF forum with a sufficiently large amount of members.

Shoden

02-07-2005, 08:37 PM

if Square says it isnt true then it isnt true and thats that

DJZen

02-07-2005, 09:20 PM

Any time I see a thread like this I keep thinking my corroted artery needs a trim.....

Seriously, this is the calmest one of these threads has ever been. For that I'm thankful. VERY thankful.

Destai

02-07-2005, 09:32 PM

:D I was just curious!

Cuchulainn

02-07-2005, 11:08 PM

She isn't.

You may lay your tinfoil hat on the counter there, and remember, you saw NOTHING.

:D classic...Square said she ISN'T and they WROTE the storyline...Goddamn this R=U shiiz..If You stare at a fire long enough you start to see images dancing...Apple=Apple End It.

Good Day

PhoenixAsh

02-08-2005, 03:30 AM

I like the theory. I think there's a couple of lines in the Japanese version about Griever that make it less plausable, but meh, I prefer it as a twist.
Personally Square official statements and the Japanese script aside, I think the R=U version may make more sense than the none R=U one. It at least fits the story well and improves the plot a lot IMO.

Quina

02-08-2005, 04:25 AM

Get a bunch of FF fans together and they can come up with a lot of things.

DJZen

02-08-2005, 05:39 AM

Like Gogo's real identity for example.

Sir Bahamut

02-08-2005, 10:19 AM

Square has denied the theory? Oh really? Are you referring to the Square-X article, where this "Jesse" says "I called my friend at Square", who subsequently deny it after calling japan? Please.

"Jesse" didn't provide a shred of evidence that he actually KNEW anyone in Square, or give us any reason to believe he was telling the truth at all.

I could say in counter: "Well, I'm a good personal friend of Sakaguchi, and he said the R=U theory IS true" and you'd have just as much reason to believe me as "Jesse".

So please, enough with this nonsense that Square denied the theory. Square haven't made ANY official statements on ANY theory, and they won't either. After all, all our arguing is good for their business, so why on earth would they put and end to it? The R=U debate is one of the things which has kept FF8 alive and kicking even now, many years after it's release, so do you honestly think they'd want to put an end to it?

By the way, not to sound cocky or anything, but the link I posted earlier is a result from 2 years of "extremely long posts theorizing the Rinoa-Ultimecia theory", with many other users, so if you think the R=U theory is ridiculous or impossible, I would advise you read that link first.

Destai

02-08-2005, 04:13 PM

Well "Rinoa is not Ultimecia" certainly doesnt leave much of an impact. Sounds more like a receptionists reply than anyone high up. To be honest, Who decides? Square and the FFVIII staff is a large group arent they? Who even said that statement? It sounds like they didnt give it much thought but it would certainly be a brilliant plot twist and would actually come close to making a character out of Ultimecia. I certainly like the theory.

Shoden

02-08-2005, 04:56 PM

Destai

02-08-2005, 05:09 PM

How dya spell farfetched? Oh right...

Sir Bahamut

02-08-2005, 05:17 PM

Doubtlessly it's a thing of choice, that much should at least be clear in any argument. No proof can ever be made for a theory(by the definition of the word) and no proof against it has been found, though many have tried, that's for sure.

Only it's level of plausibility can be argued. For instance, the fact that...

SPOILERS

...Laguna is Squalls father is also a theory by definition, yet one backed up by so strong arguments that it seems ridiculous to not take it as fact. Similarly here, one should at least make a case for plausibility.

As for Ultimecias looks, they are of no importance. After all, consider Adel. Judging on her looks it's hard to say she's human, but she was just as everyone else a human when she first got her powers. So any change in looks between R and U have little to no significance.

udsuna

02-08-2005, 07:00 PM

Cool.... I've never heard this theory before. It's warped- and unlike a lot of people, I couldn't care one way or the other on it, but I like convoluted logic like this, so I'll treat it as a logic problem.

1. What would be necessary to make this work?
A: Clearly, the immunity to aging- which seems plausible, given Edea and Adel's appearant longevity. With the other stuff their powers seem to cause, it's reasonable. THIS ONE IS KEY- you can't have anything further in the theory without acknowledging this.
B: A reason for Rinoa to go loco. Falling in love, watching the man you love age and die while you stay young, having no way to stop it (power over life and death don't appear as any sorceress ability) and then spending a few centuries alone... yeah, that could break just about anyone. I could see someone coming to the conclusion to hop back in time, kill either herself or said love before it ever came to be, thus blinking the future that created her out of existence. And being so demented as to fail to recognize the accidental birth of the very reality so sought to stop. Watch "Back to the Future", the original "Planet of the Apes" series, even a few choice episodes of "Andromeda" or the one in "Futurama"- it's a common time-loop theme.
C: An explanation to the time-dialation series of future sorceresses that you fight. There are always (at least) two in any point in history- Edea and Adel being the ones that you start in dealing with. Maybe in the past there were more, with a whole Highlander-esque thing, but that's a different subject.
Rinoa inherited Edea's powers when she was defeated. It doesn't seem, however, that she also got Adel's at the end of that conflict. Her power would be absorbed by whomever- another side issue.
Following that, in the dialation there are MULTIPLE generations of FUTURE sorceress, each having inherited from the prior being. Which means someone with Adel's line, the other with Edea's. Until presumably some sorceress acquired BOTH lines (as Adel tried to do), fused them, and became the final in the series- "Ultimicia" would be a fitting name. But the time- issue is one I can't see a way around (any takers?) and that would be needed to complete the R=U theory.

Strangely enough, in the end, Edea (already a sorceress) chose to absorb Ultimicia's power in order to allow her to pass on, which a sorceress appearantly can't completely- they need to be human again. It also seems the half-life magically animated state is a fate worse than death. Which is then passed to Rinoa, and then (eventually) re-acquired by Ultimicia. Only to repeat the cycle, ad infinitum. *PARADOX* BRAIN HURTING *AAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Seeing as sorceress' gain both powers and memories from their predacessors, when sliced on that axis, from Edea on up, all the sorceress' are essentially just new incarnations of the same entity. Direct looped decent, certainly, but a decent that required a hop.

Of course, this leads to another question: who would Rinoa force her powers upon? Considering that Edea was so adamant about taking Ultimecia's instead of having one of her charges imbued with those powers... one could presume that Rinoa would also be loath to do the same. Which actually supports the R=U theory- what better motive to absorb every sorceress line than to eliminate it entirely?
It also gives a *VERY* good reason for Ultimecia's meddling in the past (Has ANYONE ever actually tried to explain that? Considering she was the all-powerful master of her time, what would be the point in poking into the past? I've always hated that part of FF8- all the other FF villains at LEAST made sence).
Since she would have Edea's, Rinoa's, and Adel's memories, reguardless of source, she'd know exactly what would need to occure to insure that she was the last chronological sorceress. Suicide by the only means that would actually work completely. She'd also know that her acts would ultimately lead to her own demise through those very memories. And it's evidenced by how Ultimecia had Ellone's past-projection power (which only works on people she knew) that she had to have SOMETHING for contact- and since she could only affect the sorceresses of the past, presumably only as far back as Edea, Adel, and later Rinoa- it's this bloodline that made it work.
These are fun thoughts- Rinoa as a future potential psycho. And Ultimecia as potentially a poorly understood, self-sacrificing hero. And considering the only one she ever actually kills is the Galbadian president, a complete jackass in his own right (and she has plenty of time and chance and supposed reasons to kill the entire group of heroes) it lends itself to reason.
She did enough 'evil' stuff to convince the team to assault her in her own era- and them heading back gave her a 'doorway' to bring her actual self (and not just a projection) into the past, through Squall's trail, and get assimilated into Edea- and in the future/past whatever, take Edea's power and fuse it into Rinoa. Somehow, I don't think asking nicely would have gotten these end results.
Presto, whether as suicide, preventing whatever it is that makes passing on the line something bad, or making sure no more sorceresses exist to abuse the power, the entire lineage gone completely and forever.

Wow, this one's pretty big. It should be broken off into its own little thingy- maybe someone else'll do it.

Destai

02-08-2005, 07:41 PM

Ultimecia a misunderstood hero? Well Im all for the R-U theory but my explanation would be a mix of Ultimecia being left alone in time ,going insane and trying to destroy time itself seeing as she was immortal unless someone literally murdered her or Maybe she was trying to use the compression to reunite herself with Squall and the past. Sure she tried to killhim to achieve it but by then she was pretty insane. Flawed but its just a theory.

rubah

02-08-2005, 11:43 PM

I thought there was something in the whole time compression thing that said that Ulticmecia would be the ONLY one able to live in such an environment for an extended amount of time?

That doesn't seem to fit with her being a suicidal future rinoa that wants to completely obliterate any chance she has at existing in teh future.

Shoden

02-09-2005, 12:01 AM

ok now im lost and confused me no like this now (goodnight ppl)

ShivaBlizzard8

02-09-2005, 03:31 AM

Oh man, I was gonna keep my mouth shut but rubah's point should be backed up. ;)

Yes, the game clearly states that Ulty is the only one who could exist in a time compressed world. No one else, including Rinoa, Squall, anyone - would survive the completion of Time Compression. Therefore, I've always said that since the compression threatens Rinoa's life just as much as anybody else's she cannont be Ulty.
1)Being Ulty would allow her to survive the spell, meaning both she and Ulty would survive, and what would they do then? Sit around and play pong?
2)The bigger point, why would Ulty try to destroy her past self, over and over again?

As I see it, the only reason Ulty would want to create such a place is that for whatever reason, she can't exist in the "normal" world - only the time compressed one, which is why she keeps going through all this trouble to create it - then fails, dies, and is born and tries again. Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and I read that fanfic - I don't get it. It makes no sense to me.

Big D

02-09-2005, 04:39 AM

In Deling City, while she was possessing Edea, Ultimecia tried to kill Rinoa. No-one in their right mind would try to kill their past self. Now, many people say she was simply suffering from the effects of GF amnesia. Yet these same people say she wanted to compress time to be with Squall forever. They also say that her "Remember your childhood..." speech proves she knows who they are.

So basically, the R=U theory depends on some really selective amnesia from Ultimecia. After all, Edea had full knowledge of Ultimecia's plans and motivations; no hint of R=U was ever given by Ultimecia.

udsuna

02-09-2005, 05:24 AM

Hey, I said she was SUICIDAL, not SANE. I mean, really... what was her motivation for poking around in a past, knowing (and she would have to know) that it would stir up a chain of events that she'd have access to memories of... and would eventually lead to her demise.
Also, she never *really* used the time-compression as it was implied, not fully at least. Otherwise, how would all the beings still alive in her era exist? Monsters and those SeeDs alike? Either compression is a localized phenomena, a lot of beings actually can handle it, or it was never truly completed. And it'd make for some very GOOD motivation to manipulate the heroes into killing her... something that, regardless, she'd have memories of through Rinoa and Edea's mind. One kills her, the other absorbs her powers- dunno about you, but THAT's something that would stick out in my mind. Scale of 1 to 10, those two events get an 11 and 12, perspectively.

Sir Bahamut

02-09-2005, 01:43 PM

udsuna:

What would be necessarry for it to work?
Only two things:

1) The assumption that a sorceress has extended(or infinite) lifespan. A case for this can be made based on ingame facts making it more than a baseless assumption.

2) A certain view on Rinoas psyche. A view that makes Rinoa not giving away her powers and not being able to cope without her Knight plausible.

Because from those two assumptions alone it is trivial to point out that we'd end up with a mentally weak Rinoa, all alone without any of her friends or knight and love(Squall), in a world full of people who generally fear and hate sorceresses. No logical contradictions arise from the theory after all, or at least, not in more than 2 years have any been found(check the FAQ I linked to for "explanations" against the common arguments).

That's the basis of the theory. At least, the only truly plausible basis of the theory. That fanfic linked to earlier is just that, a fanfic, and cannot be backed up by anything ingame at all. If such use of imagination were to be "permitted" in a making of a theory like this, I could make an equally strong case for Ultimecia being Irvine.

The motive attributed to her from there may vary, but personally I think it seems by far the most reasonable assumption to assume that she wanted power, period. After all, when scanning Ultimecia in the last battle it says:

"A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing
time and taking power from all sorceresses."

Personally I doubt Square really meant something completely different when they wrote this. So I would say that if R=U, her motive would nonetheless be the same motive that we perceive Ultimecia as having.

C: An explanation to the time-dialation series of future sorceresses that you fight. There are always (at least) two in any point in history- Edea and Adel being the ones that you start in dealing with. Maybe in the past there were more, with a whole Highlander-esque thing, but that's a different subject.
Rinoa inherited Edea's powers when she was defeated. It doesn't seem, however, that she also got Adel's at the end of that conflict. Her power would be absorbed by whomever- another side issue.
Following that, in the dialation there are MULTIPLE generations of FUTURE sorceress, each having inherited from the prior being. Which means someone with Adel's line, the other with Edea's. Until presumably some sorceress acquired BOTH lines (as Adel tried to do), fused them, and became the final in the series- "Ultimicia" would be a fitting name. But the time- issue is one I can't see a way around (any takers?) and that would be needed to complete the R=U theory.

Firstly, Rinoa got Adels powers, so she has both Adels and Edeas powers. We KNOW she got Adels powers. After all, Odine explains in his plan, that a crucial element is that Rinoa gets Adels powers, and since the plan succeeds, we can only assume Rinos did, in fact, get Adels powers, leaving her the only sorceress of that time.

As for the sorceress you fight. Well, it shouldn't be assumed they are descendants of Rinoas power. Firstly, since we see two in each time, as you say, yet we are told Rinoa is the only living sorceress of her time, there's something strange going on. Even if Rinoa gave up her powers, she couldn't give them to two different people(at least, such an assumption would seem rather rash).
But we are also told in the tutorial that it is not known how many sorceresses exist, because many live in hiding, and never reveal their powers.

So, was Odine simply wrong, or is Rinoa the only living sorceress? If there WERE other sorceresses alive, then the problem with the sorceresses you fight would have an alternate explanation, namely that they originated from those/that unknown sorceress.

But even if Rinoa WERE the only sorceress, it should be noted that you're moving through time compression, where both past, present, and future are drawn together, and all sorts of weird things occur. So the sorceress you fight may not even be sorceress inbetween Rinoa and Ultimecia. They may just be freak products of the warped time, or they may be sorceresses of old or of the far future, thrust into a different time.

Either way, there are explanations for the sorceresses you fight that agree with ingame facts and quotes.

Only to repeat the cycle, ad infinitum. *PARADOX* BRAIN HURTING *AAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Irrelevant as it may be, it is no paradox, merely a looping of time. A paradox is impossible by definition.

Seeing as sorceress' gain both powers and memories from their predacessors, when sliced on that axis, from Edea on up, all the sorceress' are essentially just new incarnations of the same entity. Direct looped decent, certainly, but a decent that required a hop.

They gain memories? I'm sorry, but that is an unfounded assumption and is thus irrelevant. So the power passing through them is the only similarity between the sorceresses, and would hardly suffice to name them the "same entity".

It also gives a *VERY* good reason for Ultimecia's meddling in the past (Has ANYONE ever actually tried to explain that? Considering she was the all-powerful master of her time, what would be the point in poking into the past? I've always hated that part of FF8- all the other FF villains at LEAST made sence).

As has been mentioned, her goal was obviously time compression, and as I said, even if R=U I think it seems clear that was her motive. And we are told that in order to cast TC, Ultimecia needed to be in the far past. IN order to get that far back, she needed Ellone, which is why she started "meddling in the past", and that's about as good an explanation as we'll ever get.

Since she would have Edea's, Rinoa's, and Adel's memories, reguardless of source, she'd know exactly what would need to occure to insure that she was the last chronological sorceress.

Again, this is unfounded, as nothing indicates that memories are passed on with powers.

And it's evidenced by how Ultimecia had Ellone's past-projection power (which only works on people she knew) that she had to have SOMETHING for contact- and since she could only affect the sorceresses of the past, presumably only as far back as Edea, Adel, and later Rinoa- it's this bloodline that made it work.

She could only affect sorceresses of the past? No, we only see her possess sorceresses of the past, and that's because we are told she needs to go into the past, and NOT the future to cast TC. She would have no reason to go to the future. She probably couldn't if she wanted to, by the way, as Ellones machine only works that way as far as we know.

Of course, there had to be some connection, but the fact that they all shared the same power would probably be enough. Or if she were Rinoa, she would have known all those sorceresses well enough anyway.

These are fun thoughts- Rinoa as a future potential psycho. And Ultimecia as potentially a poorly understood, self-sacrificing hero. And considering the only one she ever actually kills is the Galbadian president, a complete jackass in his own right (and she has plenty of time and chance and supposed reasons to kill the entire group of heroes) it lends itself to reason.

Eh, to make an analogy, Hitler may not have killed many with his own hands, but that doesn't make him less evil. Ultimecia is the cause of the death of countless men. She invaded Deling, went to war with SeeD, destroyed Trabia garden, and in her own time had countless SeeDs killed.

Yes, the game clearly states that Ulty is the only one who could exist in a time compressed world. No one else, including Rinoa, Squall, anyone - would survive the completion of Time Compression. Therefore, I've always said that since the compression threatens Rinoa's life just as much as anybody else's she cannont be Ulty.

That's flawed. True, only Ultimecia could live in TC, but if Rinoa were to one day become Ultimecia, then no one would know of it in Squalls time, meaning it is obvious they'd all assume Rinoa too would be unable to live.

1)Being Ulty would allow her to survive the spell, meaning both she and Ulty would survive, and what would they do then? Sit around and play pong?

I don't see your point. If Rinoa weren't Ultimecia, Ultimecia'd be all alone after time was compressed. What'd she do then? Sit around playing patience? We don't know what Ultimecia would do once she compressed time, and we never will know.

2)The bigger point, why would Ulty try to destroy her past self, over and over again?

The theory is based on Rinoas insanity, and well, insane people do insane things.

In Deling City, while she was possessing Edea, Ultimecia tried to kill Rinoa. No-one in their right mind would try to kill their past self. Now, many people say she was simply suffering from the effects of GF amnesia. Yet these same people say she wanted to compress time to be with Squall forever. They also say that her "Remember your childhood..." speech proves she knows who they are.

I agree, that it would be HIGHLY unlikely that she in any wanted to be with Squall again, considering she tried to kill both him and herself.
That's why I would propose that a Rinoa who were Ultimecia followed the same motive as the Ultimecia who is Ultimecia does; a desire for all the sorceress power, and a compressed time.

In that way, you don't get this "selective amnesia" as you put it.

Finally, it is true that time compression was never completed. After all, if it were, no one would be able to fight Ultimecia, yet they do. Furthermore, Ultimecia says clearly that "the world was on the BRINK of that ever elusive time compression".

PS: I don't want it to seem like I'm merely shamelessly plugging my FAQ, but I wrote it so I wouldn't have to write as long posts as these. Therefore, if anyone wants a fuller view of my take on it, please read that instead of asking me: http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

Shockwave Pulsar

02-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Have you ever had a feeling that you have to do something but don't remember what it is? it happens to me all the time. for example, when i'm surfing the web and i see something interesting i want to look into a little bit more. i get distracted with other things and i forget what i was going to look for. i know i have to go to google, but what am i supposed to do there?! that feeling is terrible. so then i decide, "what the hell i'll just go to google it may comeback there".
Under the assumption that sorceress don't age, this is the best way i've seen the theory explained.
After the death of her knight, rinoa starts to loose her mind. after a process (of insanity), she decides to unify time to be with him forever. due to the use of gf's she forgets the reason but she has a goal set, achieve time compression. at any cost. the reason she may have tried to hurt herself or squall is because she doesn't remember them, they are just two intruders trying to stop her from her goal.

IMO

Destai

02-09-2005, 04:21 PM

I like that theory and as I said before, I "wish" it was true but if any of this was true Square would have gived some form of suggestion in the game. Theres just too little info of it in the game for Square to see it as true.

Shockwave Pulsar

02-09-2005, 05:56 PM

Personally i believe there are hints thrown in the game, which is probably how the theory started anyways.

§håd0w

02-09-2005, 11:49 PM

in the game it says Ultimecia is many generations ahead of them
many is about 6-8 and a generation is 20 years times the numbers and you'll get 140 years if its 7 120 if 6 and 160 if 8. if Rinoa is a full sorceress than she wouldnt have grey hair unless she used peroxide and lots of it or used magic, she could of kept her friends alive using her powers and theres the old "i don't want to hurt anyone with my powers" thingy thats all im saying but theres strong evidence for and against so its a thing of choice we dont know if its true or not.

Ultimecia also sends her presence into the past to obtain what she wants. Henceforth, it is possible that R=U. So don't argue this, it's only gonna end up in a flamefest. It is also possible that they are not the same. We will never know.

Shoden

02-10-2005, 04:58 PM

yeah i guess so lets move on to the hints given and differences

Sir Bahamut

02-10-2005, 07:23 PM

Destai

02-10-2005, 07:25 PM

I love it when people do that.

§håd0w

02-10-2005, 09:10 PM

A full list of all hints(unless I missed any, which I doubt) can be found in the FAQ I linked to repeatedly(yet seems to have been ignored so far):

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

In the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory section....

Dude, no one really cares at this point, since there is no definate proof of anything. Everything about R=U are all conspiracies, and nothing is definite. If you posted it before many times, there is no reason to post it again. Can you please not post that anymore? We've all seen it by now.

Sir Bahamut

02-11-2005, 02:59 PM

Dude, no one really cares at this point, since there is no definate proof of anything. Everything about R=U are all conspiracies, and nothing is definite. If you posted it before many times, there is no reason to post it again. Can you please not post that anymore? We've all seen it by now.

I'm sorry, but I posted the link very early on in this topic, yet despite that, the topic went on with all sorts of questions and comments that would have been completely uneccessary(save a few) if they had read what I linked to. Even after I linked to it again, questions kept popping up which I had answered in that FAQ.
Then someone asks for "the hints", and guess what, they can also be found in the site I linked to.

So you'll have to forgive me if I get somewhat frustrated...

Destai

02-11-2005, 05:32 PM

You havent tried to use the link, have you? Gamefaqs dont allow direct links. XD

Sir Bahamut

02-11-2005, 07:14 PM

The link works fine for me =P

Destai

02-11-2005, 07:53 PM

Its your link : p

§håd0w

02-11-2005, 09:48 PM

I'm sorry, but I posted the link very early on in this topic, yet despite that, the topic went on with all sorts of questions and comments that would have been completely uneccessary(save a few) if they had read what I linked to. Even after I linked to it again, questions kept popping up which I had answered in that FAQ.
Then someone asks for "the hints", and guess what, they can also be found in the site I linked to.

So you'll have to forgive me if I get somewhat frustrated...

IT'S COOL MAN... I GET CARRIED AWWWAY AT TIEMS.

Big D

02-12-2005, 08:33 AM

The 'painting puzzle' in Ultimecia's Castle is a classic. As many of you will know, the correct answer to the puzzle is 'Vividarium et intervigilium et viator', or 'In the Garden sleeps a Messenger'. Now, is there a 'messenger' in any 'garden' in the world? Why, yes - there's Selphie. The 'little messenger girl', as Seifer calls her, because of her role in the Dollet mission. But what's that 'sleeping' line about? Well, there's strong evidence that Selphie is actually a sorceress and doesn't know it. She can use magic without having to draw or junction it - just like the other sorceresses in the game. It's mentioned in the Tutorial that sorceresses possess the inherent ability to use magic. Selphie only uses magic during her Limit Break, though - evidence that it's a repressed ability, something she doesn't openly acknowledge. Thus, one can only prove that she is a secret, 'sleeping' sorceress.

See what I'm getting at? Selphie is clearly Ultimecia. They look completely different, but then we know that sorceresses can change how they look. Selphie finds Squall and Laguna attractive - two different men from two different time periods - and she knows firsthand about Ellone's special ability. Thus, she is shown to have motive and method for wanting to compress time.

So, how about Griever? Think back to that painting puzzle. 'In the Garden sleeps a Messenger'. Diablos, the winged demon GF, utilises a time/space attack called 'Dark Messenger'. Griever and Diablos are very similar, physically - similar size, four limbs, two wings, fanged jaws and a long tail. Griever's unique attack, Shockwave Pulsar, is a bit like a superpowerful version of Diablos' Dark Messenger. Both attacks draw the enemy into the center of a spheroid conflagration of astronomical energy. Tiamat is proof that Ultimecia can alter GFs; thus we can conclude that Griever is an altered form of Diablos. During early scenes in the game, Selphie hints at finding Squall attractive. They spent a lot of time together during the events in the game - and perhaps afterward - so Selphie would easily know enough about him to base her prized GF on the leonine creature on his ring and gunblade.

It's all there, folks - even the costumes are a dead giveaway. Selphie and Ultimecia are the two most under-dressed characters in FFVIII.
There can be no doubt whatsoever that Selphie is Ultimecia.

Sir Bahamut

02-12-2005, 11:32 AM

Haha, a good presentation, and a good point. However, I don't think S=U is comparable in plausibility to R=U, at least not based on those arguments. The Selpie being a sorceress arguments, that are crucial to the theory, are particularly weak, and Diablos and Griever looking similar? And wanting to compress time for Laguna and Squall because she finds them attractive?

And with the last line, about there being no doubt, I hope that wasn't an implication towards the attitude of the R=U theory, because only an idiot would seriouisly claim that there can be no doubt when it comes to such a theory.

Anyway, it's obvious your point was to try and show that R=U is as silly as S=U, but in terms of plausibility based on arguments, I wouldn't compare the two at all. The arguments used for R=U, though they may be weak, are certainly stronger than those you presented for S=U, something I hope you can agree on without me having to actually start arguing.

Destai

02-12-2005, 12:14 PM

Selphie is an evil sorceress... Yeah maybe this topic is pretty stupid.

Shoden

02-12-2005, 12:46 PM

wow that seems err nice
if Rinoa was a sorceress wouldnt she have changed her looks to try the powers out? i mean she never actually tried her powers out in the game

rubah

02-12-2005, 06:43 PM

Hear, Hear, Big D!

Now *THAT* makes sense:D

XoXyunalescaXoX

02-12-2005, 10:08 PM

i heard somewhere something about edea being ultimecia because ultimecia eventually went back in time and gave herself her own powers so that she could be ... reincarnated or something. i dont quite believe that, but what do you guys think?

Talon

02-12-2005, 10:12 PM

I think that's a bunch of crap.Why would she do that?Wait,i'm getting ahead of myself. Have you finished the game yet?Or do you have it?

XoXyunalescaXoX

02-12-2005, 10:24 PM

yeah i have it... the last time i finished it was about a year and a half ago though. im inside lunatic pandora where u fight mobile type 8 right now... and too busy with other games >_<

XoXyunalescaXoX

02-12-2005, 10:25 PM

Selphie is an evil sorceress... Yeah maybe this topic is pretty stupid.
and i totally agree with that

Destai

02-12-2005, 10:43 PM

Mayne Headmaster Cid was Ultimecia all along...

XoXyunalescaXoX

02-12-2005, 10:51 PM

lol oh yeah how could i have missed that one? ALLLLLL the signs say that Cid is Ultimecia

wow... this is what i think:

ok, im in geometry in school right now, and we're learning all these stupid proofs and theorems and whatnot... well anyways, the reflexive property... a=a. meaning U=U. not R=U or S=U or anything else. Why complicate that?

Destai

02-13-2005, 01:04 AM

yeah? Well try this? R=1, U=1, Hence R=U. It was just something that made a villain more interesting for me. Ultimecia was just a stupid idea for the game.

rubah

02-13-2005, 01:55 AM

Rinoa isn't 1 though:D She's a character in ff8, not a number.
But, mathematically,
It could be:

if R thenU; ifU then S; since R, then S. Yay law of syllogism.

or something like:
If Rinoa is going to be interesting in FF8, then she is Ultimecia.
Rinoa is interesting in FF8, thus Rinoa is Ultimecia.

I can't remember what the second one is called though, maybe XoXyunalescaXoX does, because she seems to be learning it now:)

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 09:28 PM

Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. Even assuming Ultimecia once was Rinoa, to misquote Obi-Wan Kenobi:

"When Rinoa became Ultimecia, the good person who was Rinoa was destroyed."

Rinoa and Ultimecia are two completely different people. Different drives, different emotions, different accents... When someone changes that much, they are no longer the same person, IMHO.

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 09:31 PM

Not true... take this example

Michael Jackson (Jackson 5) > Michael Jackson (Present day)

Black > Not Black
Hot > Bony and ugly
Child > Child molester

This defies your reasoning. His appearance has changed completely, his motives have changed as well. Sorry, but this defies your logic.

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 09:59 PM

...Not really... Try rereading my post, and think it over a little...

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:09 PM

Read it quite a bit. Just because someone changes, does not make them a different person. They are always the same person, unless they get the operation.

Rinoa and Ultimecia are two completely different people. Different drives, different emotions, different accents... When someone changes that much, they are no longer the same person, IMHO.

Someone can have a revelation during their life and completely change their ways. But they're still the same person as they were before, just a different lifestyle. A child grows into an adult, their drives change from having fun etc... to doing what is required or not getting fired, etc... Their emotions change as well. A kid would not understand love, though and adult does. The way they speak changes as well, I have not seen one child grow older and talk the same as they did as toddler. Something things such as the R=U theory cannot be proven by such logic.

Sir Bahamut

02-14-2005, 10:09 PM

True. Mentally, they might as well be considered different personalities. Ultimecia may be considered as the split, evil personality of Rinoa in a sense.

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:12 PM

Oh yes, I totally agree with that. A derranged killer can make a complete turn around and become a preacher to repent. He's the same person, but he's not the maniac he once was.

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:14 PM

Read it quite a bit. Just because someone changes, does not make them a different person. They are always the same person, unless they get the operation.

Someone can have a revelation during their life and completely change their ways. But they're still the same person as they were before, just a different lifestyle. A child grows into an adult, their drives change from having fun etc... to doing what is required or not getting fired, etc... Their emotions change as well. A kid would not understand love, though and adult does. The way they speak changes as well, I have not seen one child grow older and talk the same as they did as toddler. Something things such as the R=U theory cannot be proven by such logic.

The R=U theory can't be proven by logic at all... All I'm pointing out is that the two are not the same. The arguement points to the fact that Rinoa/Ultimecia lost her memories due to the GF and she gains an insane obsession with the time compression. Totally different mentalities, without even the same memories... How can that be classified as the same person?

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:18 PM

Point taken. Though Rinoa never equipped a GF until she joined with SeeD members. So while you can blame some of it on the GF, you cannot blame all of it. Since there is obviously some consciousness left in those who have used GFs. They still remember a lot of things, just not chldhood. Which actually isn't uncommon.

Sir Bahamut

02-14-2005, 10:20 PM

Uh, because they're still the same person? Just because Ultimecia is completely different than Rinoa, doesn't mean she wasn't still born as Rinoa.

Yes, they 'might as well' be different characters in that sense, but they aren't in the R=U theory. Same person, different personality.

Oh, and GF usage isn't the main argument used for Rinoas change of personality, simply because it's too speculative whether or not she used GFs after the game. It's her insanity at Squalls death that's the main argument.

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:22 PM

Heh, I was considering adding that to my point, but decided not to. :p

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:23 PM

Well, if she did become Ultimecia, we can assume that she had junctioned GF for a lot longer, which could explain total memory loss... Although why she did is another mystery, since after they learned about the memory loss thing the only reason they kept the GF junctioned was because they needed the GF's power to defeat the Sorceress, so why would they keep them junctioned once they've won..?

Sorry, those last two weren't here when I first replied. Gimme a sec, and I'll edit this to respond to them.

Ok, so when Ultimecia possessed Edea, you are claiming that they were still fighting Edea, not Ultimecia, since it's Edea's body? I'm sorry, but I believe that the mind is the crux of a person's individuality. The minds of Rinoa and Ultimecia are those of two different people, even if they came to exist in the same body.

Shockwave Pulsar

02-14-2005, 10:29 PM

I don't think the end of ultimecia means the complete destruction of all evil in the world. she's just another threat, ruby dragons and malboros will still exist even if she's dead.

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:30 PM

I don't think the end of ultimecia means the complete destruction of all evil in the world. she's just another threat, ruby dragons and malboros will still exist even if she's dead.

Good point, but why would they go out and fight them, when they can stay nice and safe in the cities/Gardens?

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:37 PM

The Garden sends out SeeDs as hired mercenaries. They do whatever they are told.

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:50 PM

The Garden sends out SeeDs as hired mercenaries. They do whatever they are told.

Rinoa's not a SeeD... Anyway, getting back to the matter at hand, I edited my post to include my response to the previous posts (the ones it looked like I ignored, but really didn't reply to because they weren't there when I first started writing my reply).

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:52 PM

I never said she was a SeeD. But I can't find anything else to keep this topic alive. If you can, feel free to post on it.

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:54 PM

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 10:57 PM

Alrighty, lemme give this a shot.

At the time being, they were fighting Edea and not Ultimecia. Since originally, they didn't know of Ultimecia. While the mind does determine a lot of what a person is, if they were the same, you can't deny they are the same in person. Or something like that. Does that make any sense, or should I try again?

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 10:59 PM

I'd appreciate a bit of clarification on that. I'm afraid I couldn't make much sense out of it (probably due to my limited intellect, not a fault in your statement).

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 11:10 PM

Ok, so when Ultimecia possessed Edea, you are claiming that they were still fighting Edea, not Ultimecia, since it's Edea's body? I'm sorry, but I believe that the mind is the crux of a person's individuality. The minds of Rinoa and Ultimecia are those of two different people, even if they came to exist in the same body.
(Need this for reclarification purposes)

Heh, it's all good. How can I say this...

When they were fighting Edea, they thought she was the Sorceress that SeeD was meant to fight; not Ultimecia So in a sense, they were fighting Edea, and not Ultimecia, since they didn't know anything about Ultimecia at the time being. Though really, it was more of them fighting Ultimecia's conscious in Edea's body.

This is a bit hard to support since my opinion constantly changes. Rinoa and Ultimecia do have different minds so it seems; so it is possible to argue with that that they are not the same. But you can also argue that they were the same in birth and her conscious has just changed. It's a tough theory to proove or to disproove. Hopefully this made some sense, I actually had to think it over, heh :p

Skyblade

02-14-2005, 11:16 PM

(Need this for reclarification purposes)

Heh, it's all good. How can I say this...

When they were fighting Edea, they thought she was the Sorceress that SeeD was meant to fight; not Ultimecia So in a sense, they were fighting Edea, and not Ultimecia, since they didn't know anything about Ultimecia at the time being. Though really, it was more of them fighting Ultimecia's conscious in Edea's body.

This is a bit hard to support since my opinion constantly changes. Rinoa and Ultimecia do have different minds so it seems; so it is possible to argue with that that they are not the same. But you can also argue that they were the same in birth and her conscious has just changed. It's a tough theory to proove or to disproove. Hopefully this made some sense, I actually had to think it over, heh :p

(It did make sense, thank you)

*Shrug* It's no harder/easier to prove/disprove than any other view of the R=U dilemma.

I just threw it out here to get some different views on an old arguement.

§håd0w

02-14-2005, 11:19 PM

Oh yeah, it's always interesting to see how view can differ.

Cuchulainn

02-15-2005, 01:36 AM

I have to admit it does seem strange that Ults Summon is called Griever....A Beast Summoned by the sadness of a loved one's death...you need to ask who she's Grieving over. But it's still far fetched to me & with too little evidence to turn me completely, but I have to say my eyes are wider than they were before.

BackRoomKid

02-15-2005, 02:18 AM

I believe in it, cuz I can

FallenAngel411

02-15-2005, 02:42 AM

Well, this thread has been beaten to death.

Um, no, Ultimecia and Rinoa are not the same people. There. The whole point was that Ultimecia was posessing people from the current time in order to take over the world or whatever, i.e. Edea and Rinoa.

Edea is Edea, Rinoa is Rinoa, and Ultimecia is Ultimecia. Period.

(wonders where you were for half the story)

Shockwave Pulsar

02-15-2005, 03:10 AM

Skyblade

02-15-2005, 03:52 AM

Rinoa was possessed by Ultimecia when Edea was defeated at the end of disc 2. This sent her into a coma (not entirely sure why... Was Rinoa fighting Ultimecia to a standstill, while Edea just surrendered?) until Ultimecia took full possession of Rinoa in outer space in order to free Adel.

Being possessed by one's self is a little freaky, isn't it? Even for this story? I think it would probably have driven Rinoa insane. Even if it hadn't, she DEFINATELY would have told Squall when she was being locked up in the Sorceress Memorial, since she wanted to be locked up because she was afraid she would become a monster. If she KNEW she would become Ultimecia, she'd tell Squall to force him to lock her up, or kill her.

FallenAngel411

02-15-2005, 04:05 AM

(wonders where you were for half the thread).

I think we all agreed that there is not enough evidence to establish this theory is completely true, or false. Read the rest of the thread, from your post i could see you apparently have very little knowledge of the theory. Please don't speak like if you held the Universal truth, post you opinion, there's absolutely no need for putting the things in such a raw way, i personally felt a bit offended.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody. Just, nothing's really convinced me, except Square itself stating that the theory is false. I'm a person who likes to stay true to the original intentions of the author of a story. I know its frustrating when people start making strange assumptions about things that I write, and when I tell them the truth, they refuse to believe it. Like they can write my story for me, or something. Anyway, that's just a personal thing I have. The whole theory is interesting to think about, but I take Square's final word as the concrete reality.

Cuchulainn

02-15-2005, 04:08 AM

Skyblade

02-15-2005, 04:27 AM

Why would she know she would become Ultimacia? Only Ultimacia knows who she is and why would she tell her Past self who she is? That's something only a Bond villain would do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a believer in U=R but Square do leave a lot open here for either a sequal or to activate and captivate you imagination, if it's for the latter, they sould be commended. It's kinda like an artist being asked what a painting means, they rarely say, it's what it means to you, the viewer, that's important, it can lead you anywhere you chose, as is shown here. I guess the moral is, if you believe that U=R is correct, then it is correct and if you don't, it's not, and no one can take that away from either believer.

Oh and on Big D's post, the messanger sleeping in the Garden i believe to be Ellone.

Well, I happen to think that most Bond villains have a much firmer grasp on reality than Ultimecia...

Ultimecia told Edea who she was and what she was trying to do. I can see Edea hiding it from Squall and Rinoa, in order to protect them, but why wouldn't Ultimecia tell Rinoa when she possessed her? I'm not even sure Ultimecia would be able to hide it. I don't think that Ultimecia possessed Edea and said "Hi, I'm Ultimecia, an insane sorceress from the future who is possessing you in order to achieve time compression, killing everyone else in existence except me. I hope you don't mind." Ultimecia set out to achieve a goal, and, in doing so, revealed who she was and what she was doing to Edea. Squall and company never tried to alter the actions of Laguna, Kiros, and Ward in the past (even though Ellone wanted them to), and the few times they did suggest something, Laguna was aware of it. They didn't press on and keep pursuing the suspicious lines of thought, so Laguna and friends just ignored it mostly. Ultimecia, on the other hand, was using her chance to visit the past to change things directly, and, in doing so, she revealed herself.

Thoughts, opinions, or comments?

(Oh, and about the Rinoa outliving Squall thing, has anyone here read Lord of the Rings? Arwen loved Aragorn and chose not to go to the Undying Lands in order to be with him. Nevertheless, she still would have survived MUCH longer than Aragorn. But what happened? She outlived him by ONE day. I think Rinoa would pass on her powers and die of a broken heart, rather than live on in despair, and wind up being driven insane and becoming precisely what she feared she would become)

fire_of_avalon

02-15-2005, 05:30 AM

Personally, I don't think Greiver was a real GF, I think s/he was a psyche out. Afterall, it does tell you that Greiver is the most powerful GF in Squall's mind. It doesn't give a history of Griever, it's origins, nor does it even tell you whether or not Greiver is even junctioned to Ultimecia. The fact that it doesn't attack like a normal GF, one big attack and then it goes away until the next battle, leads me to believe that it's NOT a GF, just a different manifestation of Ultimecia's power to throw Squall and company off.

So I think all the facts about Greiver as a GF are pretty null, to be honest. It doesn't behave like a GF, so why classify it as a GF? No reason to.

Also, I don't buy the idea that each Sorceress is simply an incarnation in an infinite loop. Like it's been said before, the game itself says no one really knows how many sorceresses there are. Besides, if all the sorceresses ever WERE simply an incarnation of the same being, then those soceresses would have the exact same personalities, which we can see is not true. Adel was an evil being and abused her power. Edea was a good woman who thought she could best Ultimecia's evil, but failed. Rinoa just happened to be there and happened to have the right potential for the transfer of power and possession. Honestly, I believe it was unhappy coincidence that found Rinoa in her position. Yes, she had all the right potential to be a sorceress, but that isn't to say there weren't others in the world who did as well. Rinoa was the only one with such potential close enough to Ultimecia (while she was in possession of Edea), so it only follows that the possessor (Ulty) would immediately take over the closest avaliable host body (Rinoa).

Additionally, it's fallicious to assume that Rinoa inherited any powers from Ultimecia or Edea. Ultimecia never gave up her powers to a decendant, she just used them to control the others. So while Edea had the potential, she was never a "real" sorceress, she just had the benefits of Ultimecia's powers. Rinoa, however, is a bonafide sorceress, in that she inherits her powers from Adel, upon Adel's death. (That's how I saw it anyways). So there are no splits in the chain that would suggest weird things were happening because of time compression or Ulty moving backwards in time to see herself. The line went as follows; unknown sorceress before Adel -> Adel -> Rinoa -> whomever her descendant is.

But going back to a point I was trying to make earlier, Rinoa is GOOD. She was possessed, yes, but in the end she uses her powers for GOOD. She uses them to benefit all of humanity. Rinoa was unselfish throughout the game. Even though she didn't want to, she was prepared to go to the sorceress memorial just to protect the people she cared for. Call me crazy, but I don't think people's primary instincts change just because their loved one dies. Rinoa realized that Squall could be taken from her at any moment, and still thought they should press onward.

Finally, I'd like to point out it's also fallicious to assume that sorceresses have any especial longevity. We know that Edea is in her forties, at least, but we are never told exactly how old Adel is. Regardless of what power they are capable of, sorceresses are NOT immortal, they are still very human. If they were capable of any sort of immortality, there would be no need to pass on their powers, or even feel threatened by other humans, but they ARE, which is why they attempt to enslave them. Point being, as far as we know, sorceresses live for a normal amount of time, just like other human beings, because they are able to DIE, just like other human beings (the proof here, obviously, is both Adel and Ultimecia. Both died.) So, while it is always POSSIBLE that a sorceress has a longer lifespan, I would say it's highly improbable, and a rather weak argument to use in favor of R-U.

Adjacent to that point, I assumed all along Ultimecia's mission to compress time was to become the supreme power of the universe and be God. So how did she know about Ellone; who knows. Maybe Ellone goes on to later expose her talent and goes down in history. Maybe Ultimecia is technologically able to see back in time (as I believe the game suggests she is).

But, like it's been said before, it's only theory. It would be fun to involve some philosopical proofs in the matter, but I am lazy and do not want too. :D

EDIT: I completely agree with Skyblade in his/her last bit, especially with the Arwen/Aragorn parallel. Even if Rinoa WERE capable of outliving Squall, would she? Even if she WERE capable of owning the whole world, WOULD SHE? I think the answer is no, Rinoa is not innately selfish, she puts others before herself and she's not easily swayed by what goes on outside her. She follows her heart, and I don't think she is mentally capable of trying to destroy the world, even if she did go nuts.

Shockwave Pulsar

02-15-2005, 01:07 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody. Just, nothing's really convinced me, except Square itself stating that the theory is false. I'm a person who likes to stay true to the original intentions of the author of a story. I know its frustrating when people start making strange assumptions about things that I write, and when I tell them the truth, they refuse to believe it. Like they can write my story for me, or something. Anyway, that's just a personal thing I have. The whole theory is interesting to think about, but I take Square's final word as the concrete reality.
Really? i love when people have different ideas about the things i write. makes me see how different some people think.
Anyways back to the topic
There no such thing, if you read earlier on this thread you'd see that.
I'll quote sir bahamut:
"Square has denied the theory? Oh really? Are you referring to the Square-X article, where this "Jesse" says "I called my friend at Square", who subsequently deny it after calling japan? Please.

"Jesse" didn't provide a shred of evidence that he actually KNEW anyone in Square, or give us any reason to believe he was telling the truth at all.

I could say in counter: "Well, I'm a good personal friend of Sakaguchi, and he said the R=U theory IS true" and you'd have just as much reason to believe me as "Jesse".

So please, enough with this nonsense that Square denied the theory. Square haven't made ANY official statements on ANY theory, and they won't either. After all, all our arguing is good for their business, so why on earth would they put and end to it? The R=U debate is one of the things which has kept FF8 alive and kicking even now, many years after it's release, so do you honestly think they'd want to put an end to it?"
So there's no such thing as a "last word", which means the theory cannot be discarded.

Skyblade

02-15-2005, 02:13 PM

Rand Al'Tor

02-15-2005, 04:09 PM

Skyblade

02-15-2005, 07:09 PM

Regarding the 'Rinoa would die after Squall by her own will', remember that Rinoa might want that, but it'd mean saddling someone else with the curse of Sorceress power. And she doesn't seem like the type to do that.

As to the powers multiplying. It does seem a bit weird in the R=U theory (damn time travelling) however, for this to work in a NON R=U context, you'd have to assume that Ultimecia, whoever she is did NOT inherit her power from Rinoa, or else you have the same problem.

Personally, I'm willing to just blame that on 'time travel give sme a headache'

Yeah, but if you can just get rid of it and die when you want to, it doesn't seem like much of a curse.

Also, in a non R=U situation, paradoxes can be considered off limits. They are allowed in the R=U situation because the entire R=U situation is a paradox. So if you deny the power multiplication theory, you would also be denying the R=U theory. Generally, paradoxes are considered immpossible. But if you include one (the R=U situation), you would have to include them all (including the power multiplication theory). If you can find some other point to cancel out the PMT (Power Multiplication Theory, I'm going to abbreviate it from now on), that's all well and good. But if you accept the PMT, then victory over Ultimecia is immpossible. And if you don't accept the PMT because of it's paradoxical nature, you also have to deny the R=U theory because of its paradoxical nature.

Sir Bahamut

02-15-2005, 08:41 PM

Ultimecia told Edea who she was and what she was trying to do. I can see Edea hiding it from Squall and Rinoa, in order to protect them, but why wouldn't Ultimecia tell Rinoa when she possessed her?

Rinoas was possessed in a different manner, that much is clear. When we see Edea possessed, she looks perfectly normal, not possessed. When Rinoa is possessed she turns into some freaky, weirdly transparent, glowing mindless creature. So even if Ultimecia couldn't hide her thoughts Rinoa would probably never know.

Furthermore, if Ultimecia WAS as deranged as the theory claims, she wouldn't even remember being Rinoa, let alone "becoming" Ultimecia.

Personally, I don't think Greiver was a real GF, I think s/he was a psyche out. Afterall, it does tell you that Greiver is the most powerful GF in Squall's mind. It doesn't give a history of Griever, it's origins, nor does it even tell you whether or not Greiver is even junctioned to Ultimecia. The fact that it doesn't attack like a normal GF, one big attack and then it goes away until the next battle, leads me to believe that it's NOT a GF, just a different manifestation of Ultimecia's power to throw Squall and company off.

So I think all the facts about Greiver as a GF are pretty null, to be honest. It doesn't behave like a GF, so why classify it as a GF? No reason to.

Girever IS a GF. That's made clear also in the japanese version. This is what it says to be precise:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

After fighting Griever for a while:

Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

---

Of course, from that there, and the scan info from Squall, it seems obvious that Ultimecia created Griever, the GF, right there and then based on Squalls emotions and thoughts. So you're right that in the end, Griever doesn't point towards the theory or against it.

--------------

Ok, several other topics were mentioned, including sorceress lifespan, and the timeloop in conjunction with the cycling of powers. Well, I wrote an FAQ precisely on those things(and some other stuff), so yet again I'd refer you to it:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

It's the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" in the FAQ list(alpahbetically listed).
From there you can gather my view on things, and comment subsequently. I'd very much appreciate it if you could read it, and give feedback and comments.

Skyblade

02-16-2005, 12:30 AM

Yes, I did read it. It was interesting, but much more close minded than I expected. You basically said that because the PMT can't work out logically in the R=U situation, you should ignore it. Great arguement there, buddy. Tell me, in your "unchanging time" situation, what determines the "set in stone" events? If the past can't be changed, then Ultimecia wouldn't have been able to come back and give Edea her powers in the first place. Arguing that time can't be changed by having the time travel events that we know occur be "fated" is stupid. Why would those time travelling events be allowed (and, in fact, necessary), when no others are? Very poor logic, in my humble opinion. We KNOW the past can be changed, because we've seen it happen! Ultimecia giving her powers to Edea was changing the past. For one thing, Edea never mentioned that when you spoke to her about her powers. Rather important detail to leave out, isn't it? But if Ultimecia is from time period "B", then giving her powers to someone in time period "A" is changing the past! I find the idea that her giving her powers away was "pre-destined" ridiculous. You'll be amazed at how many things can be explained by saying "it's fate". It's fate that this rock will fall to the ground when I let go of it... What do you know? I'm right! "Fate" is the most idiotic explanation out there. Yes, when you explain things as happening because of a "pre-determined set of events that we can have no influence on", it's easy as hell to explain anything. A theory arguing that it is that way because that is the way the game was programmed would get more praise from me than your claim that "time is set in stone". Denying logic does not solve an arguement. It just groups you in with those people who say "Rinoa is Ultimecia. Period".

Actually, Edea does mention gaining the powers of a sorcerress on the verge of death 13 years before the game takes place, but I am curious as to why she wouldn't tell Squall it was Ultimecia.

Sir Bahamut

02-16-2005, 03:44 PM

You basically said that because the PMT can't work out logically in the R=U situation, you should ignore it.

I said nothing of the sort. The section on time, including the PMT bit was completely seperate from the R=U theory. All I said on the "PMT" bit was that it couldn't logically tell us if time was unchanging or not. I really don't know where you're pulling the R=U theory in from, because I don't mention that at all in that section.

Tell me, in your "unchanging time" situation, what determines the "set in stone" events?

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me who/what created time in FF8? That seems a bit demanding, don't you think?

If the past can't be changed, then Ultimecia wouldn't have been able to come back and give Edea her powers in the first place.

Flawed. If time was set in stone, Edea would have ALWAYS received her powers from Ultimecia. It's an infinite loop, as I explained. So nothings changing when she gives her her powers. You clearly missed that point in my FAQ.

Arguing that time can't be changed by having the time travel events that we know occur be "fated" is stupid. Why would those time travelling events be allowed (and, in fact, necessary), when no others are?

Stupid? Why would it be stupid when the game directly implies that fate exists in FF8? If you missed where I got that from you'll have to reread it. As for your second question, Iyou're obviously confused. I never said timetravel at other points wasn't allowed. Please don't put words in my mouth.

We KNOW the past can be changed, because we've seen it happen! Ultimecia giving her powers to Edea was changing the past. For one thing, Edea never mentioned that when you spoke to her about her powers. Rather important detail to leave out, isn't it? But if Ultimecia is from time period "B", then giving her powers to someone in time period "A" is changing the past!

We don't "KNOW" the past can be changed. In fact, Square tell us the opposite through Ellone. She literally says "You can't change the past". Quite unambigious don't you think? Or did you miss that bit in my FAQ maybe?

I didn't "leave that out", I was perfectly aware of it. What I did was explain why time would be completely set in stone, and why the games makes perfect sense based on that assumption. Ultimecia can pass on her powers to Edea and not change the past, as long as that was part of the events set in stone, which it obviously would be. So the unchanging time explains the power transfer AND includes what the game tell us about not being able to change the past.

I find the idea that her giving her powers away was "pre-destined" ridiculous.

And I find the idea that you would think Ellone was not telling the truth as ridiculous. What's your point?

"Fate" is the most idiotic explanation out there.

Yet the game implies that fate exists repeatedly. Again, did you decide to systematically ignore those bits of my FAQ?

Denying logic does not solve an arguement. It just groups you in with those people who say "Rinoa is Ultimecia. Period".

Firstly, when did I deny logic? Please do point out any logical fallacies you may find, but don't accuse me of such things without telling me what I've done wrong.

Secondly, you're obviously confused. I never used the unchanging time to back up the R=U theory. In fact, in the section on R=U(which I doubt you even read based on your post) explains my take on the R=U theory, and I even say I don't find it particularly plausible, and I also state repeatedly that it can't be proven and that it's all speculation.'

To sum up, I really think you should have read the FAQ properly before being so sharp and accusing. It's in any case obvious that you either only skimmed through it, or didn't understand a word.

Rini

02-16-2005, 07:22 PM

Agreed. Though, if someone feels like looking into it outside of the Forum, FanFiction.net has an absolutely OUTSTANDING Fic on it called Mirrorfeather ( http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2197713/1/ ). Tis a quick, 3 chap read and provides a very plausible and detailed account of how R=U could hace come to be. I myself choose to neither support or deny. there are much more aggravating things to be argued.

Wheesh. That's really scientific.. But good fiction, nonetheless. Loved it.

I'm not saying anything about the U=R / R=U theory, because I don't really know if I want to believe it or not, even if it is proven not to be true by facts from the game itself :P
But it's always lovely to speculate.

fire_of_avalon

02-17-2005, 02:05 AM

While I really appreciate your arguement (especially the part where you say you agree with me, which isn't something that happens everyday :D ), I think you are incorrect here. Supposedly, the sorceresses inherited their powers from Hyne, so nothing suggests that there is only one. Edea received the powers of a previous sorceress at age 5, and she accepted Ultimecia's powers upon her death at the end of the game. Edea passed on her powers, without her knowledge (probably due to some manipulation by Ultimecia), to Rinoa. Rinoa then gained Adel's powers upon her death, leaving Rinoa the only known sorceress in the world. (Incidentally, would this mean that she has the power of THREE normal sorceresses? Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia?) Make no mistake though, Edea was a full sorceress from the time she was a child.

Of course, this too would contradict the R=U theory. If Rinoa inherited Ultimecia's powers through Edea, and then had the power of Ultimecia, Edea, and Adel as Ultimecia, when she passed her powers back to Edea, she would be passing on the powers of three sorceresses. Then add Edea's and Adel's again. And rinse and repeat. Since R=U allows paradoxes by its very nature, we are talking about an endless cycle of power multiplication. It would repeat over and over until Ultimecia had enough power to win.

I'm saying Rinoa NEVER inherited Ulty's power, she only inherited Adel's. I think. That's what I meant to say.

I forgot about Edea. Oopsie.

I need to play the game again, to sort out all the sorceressy bits, but I think my other arguments are gold. Gold I say! :)

EDIT:

Girever IS a GF. That's made clear also in the japanese version. This is what it says to be precise:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

After fighting Griever for a while:

Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

Just because Ulty SAYS it's a GF doesn't mean anything. She made this monster right before them based on what Squall felt true power was. While I don't think the battle was an illusion, I DO think Greiver was a manifestation brought about by Ulty reading Squall's mind. The fact that Greiver's attack, Shockwave Pulsar, is an attack used by one of YOUR ALLIES (Quistis's Blue Magic) further goes to show that Greiver is NOT a GF. Can Quistis's Blue Magic do any OTHER GF attacks, nopers it can't. Ergo, Greiver isn't a GF, no matter what Ulty tells you.

Skyblade

02-17-2005, 02:44 AM

I said nothing of the sort. The section on time, including the PMT bit was completely seperate from the R=U theory. All I said on the "PMT" bit was that it couldn't logically tell us if time was unchanging or not. I really don't know where you're pulling the R=U theory in from, because I don't mention that at all in that section.

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me who/what created time in FF8? That seems a bit demanding, don't you think?
Not who/what created time. Who/what created the timeline. You have a "set in stone" timeline. What determines those events? A flip of a cosmic coin? I happen to hate the idea of fate, and could go on complaining about it for more than an hour. This was not directed specifically at you, but rather at Square, if "fate" is indeed what caused all this. Let's not bring in another arguement as to why fate does/doesn't exist. My fingers won't last that long.

Flawed. If time was set in stone, Edea would have ALWAYS received her powers from Ultimecia. It's an infinite loop, as I explained. So nothings changing when she gives her her powers. You clearly missed that point in my FAQ.
Flawed. If time is set in stone, then going back in time and doing anything, including handing off powers, should be immpossible. Why should Ultimecia's handing her power off to Edea be part of this set in stone timeline, if no other time travel incidents are allowed? It makes no sense. If time is set in stone, then it is immpossible to change the past. Arguing that Ultimecia was always there to hand off her powers is only possible if you are arguing in favor of fate (and I now realize that I'll have to rail against fate at the end of this post). And even then, it is rather contradictory. If you cannot change the past, then you cannot change the past. And Ultimecia did, because if she (someone from the future) hadn't been there to hand off her powers to Edea (someone from the past), then Edea never would have had her powers. If you can't change the past, then Ultimecia should have been unable to hand her powers off to Edea, unless she was doing it in her own time. Arguing about a fixed timeline that includes time travel is about as self contradictory as you can get, in my humble opinion.

Stupid? Why would it be stupid when the game directly implies that fate exists in FF8? If you missed where I got that from you'll have to reread it. As for your second question, you're obviously confused. I never said timetravel at other points wasn't allowed. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Forgive me. I was making an assumption based off of your statements. I did not mean to say that time travel at other points is impossible, but that changing the past/future at other points is impossible. Why should Ultimecia be the only one able to effect any change on the past? I know, it's "fate", right? (Anyone notice a theme here?)

We don't "KNOW" the past can be changed. In fact, Square tell us the opposite through Ellone. She literally says "You can't change the past". Quite unambigious don't you think? Or did you miss that bit in my FAQ maybe?
First off, I think you are making a BIG mistake by believing everything the characters say (and if you don't believe everything they say, why do you believe that?). I think it's quite possible that Ellone may have been unable to change the past with her attempts, while Ultimecia would have succeeded for several reasons.

1. Ellone didn't go back in time. She sent Squall and friends back instead, and since they didn't know how Ellone wanted the past changed, they couldn't do anything about it. Ultimecia went to the past herself. She knew what she wanted and how to get it.

2. The time travel of Ultimecia to Edea's time to hand off her powers is actual time travel. Ultimecia went to the past. Ellone's method of time travel involves sending you back in someone else. So while her method failed to change the past, other methods may succeed.

I didn't "leave that out", I was perfectly aware of it. What I did was explain why time would be completely set in stone, and why the games makes perfect sense based on that assumption. Ultimecia can pass on her powers to Edea and not change the past, as long as that was part of the events set in stone, which it obviously would be. So the unchanging time explains the power transfer AND includes what the game tell us about not being able to change the past.
Please see my comment about fate at the end of this post.

Yet the game implies that fate exists repeatedly. Again, did you decide to systematically ignore those bits of my FAQ?
Ditto.

Firstly, when did I deny logic? Please do point out any logical fallacies you may find, but don't accuse me of such things without telling me what I've done wrong.

Secondly, you're obviously confused. I never used the unchanging time to back up the R=U theory. In fact, in the section on R=U(which I doubt you even read based on your post) explains my take on the R=U theory, and I even say I don't find it particularly plausible, and I also state repeatedly that it can't be proven and that it's all speculation.'

To sum up, I really think you should have read the FAQ properly before being so sharp and accusing. It's in any case obvious that you either only skimmed through it, or didn't understand a word.

You are correct here. I did fail to realize that there were two seperate sections, and I just ran them together in my mind. My most humble apologies. That was my error, not anyone else's.

Now then, concerning "fate". Fate is not a valid explanation for anything. If these events were all supposed to be pre-dertimined by fate, then I am going to have to shoot a few game designers (and ones who I really liked before I started to seriously consider that they may have put fate in the game). Fate is an excuse, and a bad one at that. You can explain anything, from the R=U theory to the PMT, by simply claiming that it happened that way because of fate. If fate does exist, it is the largest coincidence in the history of the universe. I hold up a rock, and let go. It drops to the ground every single time. If what happens to the rock is determined by fate, why is it never fated to just float there? What's more, as a firm believer in free will, fate goes against all of my relegious and personal beliefs. Anyone who tries to convince me that I was "fated" to type this post is going to become the target of every critique, complaint, flame, etc that I can think of. You have been warned. Now then, on to how fate relates to FFVIII. As I said before, fate can explain anything (extremely easily, in fact, and with no loose ends). My belief in free will contradicts fate, as does my firm belief in causality. Take FFVIII's story line. If it was fate that Ultimecia went back and gave Edea her powers, why was it fate? What determines the series of events. It's no longer a case of an action causes a reaction, and a choice leads to a consequence. Everything is predetermined instead, so what determines it? The closest thing FFVIII has to a god is Hyne, and Hyne did not create fate, or I doubt he would have fated himself to a slice and dice end. So what determines what is fated to happen? I would ask why the people would fight if the result is predetermined, except that the fighting is predetermined too. Fate does not explain anything, it's just a way to get out of explaining anything. Fate is a fall back excuse to use when you can't think up a good reason for something to happen.

Well, I think I'll quit here for now. Understand, I am not arguing these points to prove/disprove the R=U theory. If Square made it all happen because of fate, then that's that. I'm just arguing why fate is not a valid explanation in my mind. You can argue that R=U because it's fate, but you'll need to get a lot more evidence than that. Right now, I'm still denying the existance of fate in FFVIII, because it would ruin the whole game for me. Granted, the plot will unfold (almost) exactly the same each time I play, but that is not fate (it is technical restrictions combined with the fact that the game is telling a story), and there is such a thing as to taking an idea too far. If I am ever convinced that fate exists in the game, I doubt I will ever play it again. Why should Squall fight if the result is the same no matter what? He wouldn't, so I wouldn't have his character do that.

Um, I guess I need to learn to estimate how much longer I'm going to go on before I say "I think I'll quit here for now". Feel free to think these things over, but please don't try to convince me that fate exists in this game. You may be correct, and that may be what the designers intended, but, like I said, it would ruin the game for me. Ta ta for now!

Sir Bahamut

02-17-2005, 02:24 PM

Not who/what created time. Who/what created the timeline. You have a "set in stone" timeline. What determines those events? A flip of a cosmic coin? I happen to hate the idea of fate, and could go on complaining about it for more than an hour. This was not directed specifically at you, but rather at Square, if "fate" is indeed what caused all this. Let's not bring in another arguement as to why fate does/doesn't exist. My fingers won't last that long.

In any case, it's not a question relevant to the topic, as we don't have any possible ways of even beginning to answer the question.

Flawed. If time is set in stone, then going back in time and doing anything, including handing off powers, should be immpossible. Why should Ultimecia's handing her power off to Edea be part of this set in stone timeline, if no other time travel incidents are allowed? It makes no sense. If time is set in stone, then it is immpossible to change the past. Arguing that Ultimecia was always there to hand off her powers is only possible if you are arguing in favor of fate (and I now realize that I'll have to rail against fate at the end of this post). And even then, it is rather contradictory. If you cannot change the past, then you cannot change the past. And Ultimecia did, because if she (someone from the future) hadn't been there to hand off her powers to Edea (someone from the past), then Edea never would have had her powers. If you can't change the past, then Ultimecia should have been unable to hand her powers off to Edea, unless she was doing it in her own time. Arguing about a fixed timeline that includes time travel is about as self contradictory as you can get, in my humble opinion.

You missed the point. All timetravelling would also be set in stone, and simply be a natural part of the line of time. Because of that, Ultimecia doesn't change anything.

And again, who has said timetravel at other points isn't allowed? There could be many other events on the line of time which involved timetravelling, we just don't know about them. They would of course all be set in stone too, and thus would also not change anything.

Forgive me. I was making an assumption based off of your statements. I did not mean to say that time travel at other points is impossible, but that changing the past/future at other points is impossible. Why should Ultimecia be the only one able to effect any change on the past? I know, it's "fate", right? (Anyone notice a theme here?)

Flawed, as explained above.

1. Ellone didn't go back in time. She sent Squall and friends back instead, and since they didn't know how Ellone wanted the past changed, they couldn't do anything about it. Ultimecia went to the past herself. She knew what she wanted and how to get it.

But they had an affect on them, by giving them lots of powers. If they hadn't been in their minds, Laguna and co might not have survived the escape from that excavation site for instance.

In any case, I think Ellone realised that you can't in fact, change the past, and I'd take her word as truth. I mean, the characters speak for Square, so I'd take her saying "you can't change the past" as being serious, simply because the whole thing about wanting to change the past is such an important bit of the plot.

I have other reasons for believing fate exists, as I already mentioned, but since you specifically asked me not to, I wont argue further.

2. The time travel of Ultimecia to Edea's time to hand off her powers is actual time travel. Ultimecia went to the past. Ellone's method of time travel involves sending you back in someone else. So while her method failed to change the past, other methods may succeed.

I don't think we should seperate them. I mean, Ultimecia went back in time into Edea, and she was able to affect the world to a GREAT extent, as the game shows us. So although they are different ways of travelling to the past, they're both travelling to the past.

Of course, I have other reasons for believing the two ways are the same, as mentioned above, although I certainly aknowledge the possibility of the two being different.

As for the rest of your post concerning "fate", I won't argue against it. You're entitled to your own view on things. But personally I think it's obvious that FF8 uses the principle of fate, so I'll argue accordingly.
One thing though, I'm not saying "R=U because of fate" although that would be true, like any other event in the line of time. I DO present arguments for WHY she would become Ultimecia, just soyou don't think I'm saying "it's fate" to any question.

Cuchulainn

02-17-2005, 05:36 PM

Forgive me for sounding redundant or ignorant but isn't Ultimacia going back and giving Edea her powers changing the past?

Sir Bahamut

02-17-2005, 06:28 PM

I explained it in my post, but I'll repeat it anyway:

It would only be changing the past if the event in which Edea gets powers from Ultimecia was NOT set in stone. HOWEVER, I would propose that that event(and any other event involving timetravelling) was ALSO set in stone, just like any other event.

Skyblade

02-17-2005, 06:59 PM

If a timeline is set in stone, then time traveling should be impossible. Period.

<-------A-------B------->

This is our timeline. If it is set in stone, then it should be immpossible for Ultimecia to go from point B to point A and give her powers to Edea. Anything else would be self contradictory. You can't travel back in time if the timeline is set in stone. Either all time traveling to go back and change the past is allowed, or none is. You're arguing that only certain events would be allowed is flawed. Of course, this again goes back to the fact that fate can prove anything. "Ultimecia was able to travel back in time and hand off her powers to Edea because she was fated to do so". Yeah, there's no way to prove/disprove that, technically. Logically, however, you offer no explanation as to why Ultimecia is able to change the past when Ellone isn't. You just say that Ultimecia is "fated" to change the past, and Ellone isn't. Some arguement. If you can't support it with any logic whatsoever, I'm not going to bother arguing with you about it.

Sir Bahamut

02-17-2005, 07:28 PM

Please, I'm not the one denying all logic and coming with silly arguments. You haven't yet understood my arguments so please don't critisize them.

Firstly, you have to realise that there are several "lines of time" that we could make. We could make a personal line for Ultimecia, or for Squall, or any individual. Or we could make a general line of time encompassing all events.

Let's make a personal line for Ultimecia:

Ultimecia is born->Ultimecia rises to power->Ultimecia is defeated by Squall->Ultimecia travels to the past->Ultimecia dies.

Notice that in Ultimecia personal line, her travelling to the past is a natural part of her life. She's always moving forward in time.
Now let's make a personal line for Edea:

Edea is born->Edea becomes a sorceress at 5->Edea meets Squall and a dying Ultimecia, and takes Ultimecias powers->Edea gives powers to Rinoa-->etc.

In Edeas personal line, getting powers from Ultimecia form the future is a perfectly natural part of her life. Now let's make a general timeline:

Edea is born-->Edea becomes a sorceress at 5-->Ultimecia arrives from the future, gives Edea her powers-->Events in game ensue-->Rinoa becomes sorceress-->Party travel to future-->Party arrive from future-->future events(unknown)-->Party arrive from past-->Party kill Ultimecia-->Ultimecia travels to past-->Events after Ultimecias reign(unknown).

You have to think of ALL those events as being set in stone. To put it this way, the line of time wouldn't be perfectly smooth, but would also include all branchings from one point in time to another, like so:

................|------------|
................|.................|
Past<------|------------|---------->Future

You get the idea.

If all the events involving timetravel were thus also set in stone, Ultimecia would be just as fated to give Edea her powers, as Edea is to give her powers to Rinoa. Perhaps you're having problems grasping it due to the infinite nature of the loop. It means, as I explained in the FAQ that circularity is made perfectly possible and natural within the loop(for instance, the question on where the term SeeD originated from has no real meaning due to the circularity).

Edea would ALWAYS receive her powers from Ultimecia. All points of time exist at once, so to speak, which is why people from the future can come to the past and meddle in it, when the people they visit haven't yet seen that future come to be.

You may not like this idea, but I firmly believe it is implied in the game from Ellones statement and the other arguments you requested I not mention. You have so far made no attempts at showing why it doesn't make sense for FF8 to have fate in it except by saying you think it's stupid. So until you do, I don't intend to think otherwise just because you are having trouble grasping the arguments I'm using.

But if you still don't get it, then I'll be glad if you don't bother arguing with me anymore, as it would be futile(and it seems you're more fond of making snide remarks instead of arguing).

Skyblade

02-17-2005, 07:41 PM

I'm afraid I do understand your point, it just seems to be rather illogical to me. That's quite all right though. I am not going to argue this point any more. Sorry for wasting your time. Farewell.

I had always believed that those things happened that way because that's the way the story the designers were writing went. But, since there's no way to prove that over "fate", it's pointless to argue about it.

XoXyunalescaXoX

02-20-2005, 07:27 PM

this is getting sooo confusing...

im totally stupid so im getting really lost here...

can rinoa possess her past self? is that plausible? even in this game with the whole plot being as confusing as it is, it just doesnt seem right that she could go into her past self at the lunar space station and stuff, and why did she go into a coma then?

im not quite sure what i believe about this yet... and i would really like to have a more substantial evidence pointing in either direction... i hate being in the neutral side of any debate...

oh yeah, one more question... the GF's only erased the childhood memories of squall and company because they started using them so much earlier. could it just be that rinoa lost memories of that time period with squall because she didnt start using the GF's until alot later than they did? and could it also possibly just be selective amnesia?

rubah

02-20-2005, 08:07 PM

Or it could be that people are trying to read too much into the game:D

seiyuimore

02-20-2005, 10:17 PM

Guys, I have to disagree with you. The facts I used is:

1. At the end of disc 2 (Thanks to Shiva Blizzard, I finally finished disc 2 by renting the game from Blockbuster), Edea clearly said that she inherite her power NOT from Adel but from a sorcerer before Adel which I believe not as lunatic as Adel.

2. Rinoa is NOT inherite Adel's power or Ultimecia power when she went to space and released Adel. She inherited the power of sorcerer Hyena which was said by Esthar guy assistant of doctor Odine (After Ragnarok landed on the K-Desert.

So in my opinion, at the end of disc 2, Edea accidentally transfer her sorcerer power to Rinoa which has a potential to be a sorcerer, then Ultimecia used her to revive Seifer.

In my opinion as well, there are several reasons why Ultimecia couldn't control Rinoa like she controled Edea in the end of disc two till the space things:
1. Because the transfer is not complete (Rinoa's body is adjusting with the new sorcerer power), I think Ultimecia can't completely control someone who was just become a sorcerer and no nothing about it. In Edea case, Cid has said that Edea has been a sorcerer since her childhood, means she knows well about sorcerer things and I believe has done things about it. The sorcerer power that she inherited has grown deep in her.

2. She is not interested in possessing Rinoa cause she thought she only need a tool to release Adel then she will pursue Ellone again. She might think that her goal is nearly over so why bother using other people to reach the glory? Why not she takes the glory herself.

3. Edea said in the end of disc 2 that she is willingly giving herself up to Ultimecia in order to save Ellone. This means that she completely surrender to Ultimecia while in Rinoa case, she didn't know what the heck going on and she was forced to do it.

So this is my two cents. I don't know why some people still think that Edea inherited Adel's power. It is impossible to think that someone like Adel will give her power to someone's else. As impossible as Ultimacia giving her power to someone else to do her nuts job. And it is clearly stated in the game. Square soft has put it right in the game that Edea inherited her power NOT from Adel.
:mad2:

Oh, forgot about R=U things. . .
About R = U, I have no comment about it because Square didn't say anything about it. Even though they put Squall imagining R then suddenly her face turned to U, I think it is just merely nightmare or something .. . or hallucination because he knew Rinoa is a sorcerer and in his time, sorcerer equals to bad as well as from experience of Adel and Ultimecia and Possessed Edea and he also knew that Rinoa is the only sorcerer lives in his era so he would think that either Rinoa is Ultimecia in the future but then again it is only presumption.

About Rinoa outlive Squall, there is a theory about it.
Edea - Cid. In the ending sequence, Edea seemed younger than Cid. Cid is probably around 50 while Edea seemed still 30 or late 20 (around Laguna's age when he was galbadian soldier in dream sequence). This could make 2 theories:
a. Edea as sorcerer would age slower than Cid
b. Cid is a sugardaddy who married a lady 20 years old younger
than him. But since in disc 2 he said he grew up together with
Edea in childhood, this theory is crap.

in conclusion of my opinion, Sorcerer indeed could outlive normal human.

Rinoa outlive Squall might be happened but in my opinion. But what happened in the future, Square didn't state it so I presume, she would pass her power to other potential girl to be the next sorcerer as it should be in generations or she didn't know how to pass her power then after Squall and the others died old, she was all alone in the world with many strangers come and go then she grew nuts and become Ultimecia, who knows? she has to adjust with the future cultures, and in her mind she started to think that if past present and future could merged into one then she won't worry to lose Squall cause of the time compression things but this is only presumption. Anyway, since Square didn't state it clearly, this R = U theory is only a "Presumption" or what modern world said "Fan Fiction"

Skyblade

02-20-2005, 10:21 PM

rubah

02-20-2005, 10:50 PM

Hyena. That's pretty good:d

This makes me wonder if none of the sorceress' ever tried to *Steal* someone else's powers. Probably couldn't be done. . . . Or COULD it?

seiyuimore

02-20-2005, 10:54 PM

[QUOTE=Skyblade]1. We know this.

Some people in this discussion still said Edea inherited Adel's power, which is why I put this quote to make all clear.

Sorry about the second one then

Sir Bahamut

02-20-2005, 11:18 PM

can rinoa possess her past self? is that plausible?

Well, I would say it is possible. I reckon the younger Rinoa would be treated as a seperate 'body', making her just as prone to possession as anyone else. Could be wrong though, but we'll never know on this subject, since it's never spoken of in the game.

If you don't find it plausible, that's fine. It's all opinions here anyway.
As for why she went into a coma, It could have been several reasons. Perhaps Ultimecia needed some time to take control over here. Perhaps Rinoas body needed time to adjust to her new sorceress powers. Perhaps booth of those. Or perhaps it was the fact that Rinoa was being possessed by herself that messed her up. Who knows?

EDIT: Hm, sorry for restating what was just said. I started typing the post a few hours ago, but left the computer. Didn't check if there had been new posts before finishing it =P

Laugh at face of Danger

02-22-2005, 10:46 PM

i'm not sayin she is or she isn't just to put the record straight, and i'm no huge Rinoa fan but i have to say...wouldn't they then have to kill Rinoa instead of Ultimecia? I mean, i still cant get to grips with how the story changed so much from simply kill this, get that...
Killing Rinoa in their time would stop all the sorceress malarkey in their time, right? and then they could all relax and wait for some other generation to kill Ultimecia. Sounds a bit off to me, so I'm sayin Rinoa is Rinoa, and oh evil one with massive powers is herself too

seiyuimore

02-22-2005, 10:57 PM

Now, that IF Rinoa = Utimecia, but if not?

And if they kill Rinoa now, she has to pass her sorcerer power to other girl. Then that other girl will be the next Ultimecia. And if they kill that other girl as well, the power will move to other girl then other girl then other girl and in conclusion, they have to kill all the girls in their world.

Problem is, can the power goes to a man?

Sir Bahamut

02-23-2005, 12:10 AM

Can the power got to a man? Good question. Hyne(the original sorceress) is referred to as He, but this may be as irrelevant as God in the Bible being called "He". Of course, Hyne is also called the first sorcerESS, so that seems a bit contradicting.

Anyway, it seems likely that only a woman can take the powers. That seems to be what's normal in any case.

Craig

02-23-2005, 12:24 AM

But surely, if they killed Rinoa, Ultimecia would never come back. Resulting in a peaceful existence. Resulting in none of it ever happening.

Or not, it's confusing me.

Sir Bahamut

02-23-2005, 11:54 AM

Well, if they COULD kill Rinoa, that would be the case. But as I've been arguing lately, you can't change time in FF8. That means that nothing they do in their own time will change the fact that Ultimecia will rise to power in the future. In fact, what they do will be the very casue of her rise.

But as I said, they'd never have any idea, but theoretically speaking, you're right.

Squall of SeeD

02-28-2005, 08:26 PM

Rinoas was possessed in a different manner, that much is clear. When we see Edea possessed, she looks perfectly normal, not possessed. When Rinoa is possessed she turns into some freaky, weirdly transparent, glowing mindless creature. So even if Ultimecia couldn't hide her thoughts Rinoa would probably never know.

I think you've forgotten, Sir, that Rinoa gleaned information from Ultimecia's mind while being possessed the same as Edea did:

Rinoa
"...I should tell you this before I go."
"I was possessed out in space. There was a sorceress inside me."
"Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time
compression."
"She's the only one who would be able to exist in such a world. She, and no
other."
"As long as I'm free, she'll continue to use me to accomplish her goal."

To Sir Bahamut on the nature of time being set in stone: to say that time is set in stone really is fallacious. While Ultimecia going into the past is a natural part of the time that exists and it would not exist without her doing so, in order for the current timeline to be in place (the one in which there is a loop that involves Ultimecia going to the past), there must have been a time in which this didn't occur. In other words, an original timeline in which no one ever went back. One can't have someone going to the past from the future until the future has already come to be at least once.

To Skyblade on the nature of fate in the game: Fate is most certainly present in Final Fantasy VIII. It's constantly emphasized from the very beginning. The name of the song that is played in the game's openeing is "Liberi Fatali." That is Latin for "Fated Children."

Further, when Ultimecia battles SeeD in Galbadia Garden, she says "So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"

Also, take note that Ultimecia's Castle is located above the very Orphanage where Ultimecia will die in her own future, but the world's past, this Orphanage also being where the children who will defeat her were raised.

The name of the opening song alone should be enough to point out that fate was involved: Squall and the others were destined to defeat Ultimecia. They were raised for it, trained for it, and one might argue born for it. That was inarguably fate.

For instance, Squall and Rinoa being saved from death in outer space when the Ragnarok happened to float by would be considered Deus ex Machina by most, but they just weren't meant to die. When it's fate, it's not Deus ex Machina. Of all the thousands of square miles around the Planet that the Ragnarok could have floated past, its trajectory from the time it was sent into space had it set to where it would float by Squall and Rinoa at just that moment.

I'm sorry to ruin the game for you, but the entire game works off of the concept of fate.

But surely, if they killed Rinoa, Ultimecia would never come back. Resulting in a peaceful existence. Resulting in none of it ever happening.

Or not, it's confusing me.

If Rinoa were Ultimecia and they learned this and then killed Rinoa, Rinoa would never become Ultimecia and never give the others reason to kill her, thus, they wouldn't have killed her, and, thus, Ultimecia would rise to power the same as she had before, instituting a perpetual loop of "Ultimecia rises to power, Rinoa is killed, Ultimecia doesn't rise to power, Rinoa isn't killed, Ultimecia rises to power, etc."

As has been pointed out in this topic several times, it's impossible to prove or disprove something like this (unlike the matter of Hojo being Sephiroth's father), but varying degrees of plausibility or the lack thereof can be established.

From my own observations and conversations with many folks, including a conversation in the past with Sir Bahamut, I have compiled a document that I feel shows that while there is still a possibility toward Rinoa being Ultimecia, the matter lacks plausibility. In other words, canon of what has been established is that she isn't, while the possibility remained outside of canon due to too little support within the framework of the game itself:

(Warning: It's a bit long.)
Document Sections:
1) Statement of Purpose
2) The Theory
3) The Response
4) Things That Might Be Used To Argue Against The Theory, But Which Really Don't Contradict It
5) Conclusion
6) Acknowledgements

-Statement of Purpose-

There are several aspects of the game FFVIII that have led many to believe that Rinoa may, perhaps, one day become the Sorceress who rules the future: Ultimecia. I will attempt to take some of the more popular aspects of this theory and explain why these aspects of the game do not necessarily indicate that to be the case from my own interpretations (faulty, though they may be) and based on conversations I have had on the matter of the course of several years, particularly with one known as Sir Bahamut. I have also taken some quotes from his thesis (seen here:
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt) to help me convey the argument of this thesis. Ultimately, I wish to show that while the theory is possible -- as anything never definitively stated or contradicted is -- it isn't plausible.

-The Theory-

Sorceresses and Immortality:

The theory at its core simply states that the Ultimecia you fight is in fact Rinoa in the future. Most gamers tend to draw the conclusion that Ultimecia only has part of Rinoas powers, and don’t think more of it. While this appears to be the most logical assumption, it is certainly not the only possible assumption! Let us however, dig beneath the core for a while.

Try to imagine the party in the final FMV. Rinoa and Squall are kissing and it seems the game will end blissfully. Focus on Rinoa now. Rinoa is a sorceress. Squall is her Knight. Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the
sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even an organisation made solely for killing them!). Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I don’t think I have to remind you what kind of a sorceress Adel was!

As I was saying, Rinoa is a sorceress. Now, what if I were to say that a sorceress had either unlimited lifespan or prolonged life? You might frown, even laugh, and say I had no grounds for making that statement.

As demonstrated by Edea, Sorceresses do not age so long as they have the Sorceress Power. They reach full physical maturity but do not experience the effects of aging. Note how she looks much younger than her husband Cid. Due to this, Rinoa will outlive all of her friends and her love, Squall, and will then be left without them in a world that may fear and hate her due to her being a Sorceress. Without them, she will be without the affection that she thrives upon and will be forced to face oppression alone, without her Knight, resulting in her becoming insane.

While her own father is likely in line to become the President of Galbadia in the present and Squall's father is already the President of Esthar, they will not live forever and those who would not be so sympathetic toward Rinoa may succeed them. Further, they -- and possibly SeeD as well -- would be inclined to keep a close eye on her after she was rendered grief-stricken with losing her friends and her love -- who was also her Knight, her focal point of stability.

Suspicion is inevitable. It's human nature. Like Ultimecia says in her speech, sorceresses are condemned and hated. I kind of doubt Rinoa would be spared.
,,,

Let’s change our attention to a line uttered by Edea in the ending. A line so easily forgotten and overlooked, yet so crucial to this theory:

"In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers".

What is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying in peace, obviously but what does that entail? If dying in peace is normally, what is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying normally? What does that mean? Surely, it is possible that ‘not dying in peace’ could mean that the sorceress was still alive, just not ‘properly’.

You could think of a sorceress being inflicted with a mortal wound, yet unable to die. We even have a source who has played the Japanese game who says that in the Japanese version, Edea actually says "A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers". For those of you who doubt this, here is a copy of his post after I asked him what Edea said in the ending:

NOTE: I never made a note of his username, and the topic he posted in dissapeared ages ago, so I cannot credit a name here. If anyone knows who it was, please contact me.

[Note: One point to contest the matter of Sorceress immortality while they still possessed their powers is that Adel and several other Sorceresses killed in the game appear to die instantly after receiving fatal wounds. While Adel and the 11 Sorceresses encountered in Time Compression die instantly, that may be explained as well and will be addressed here.]

-----

...

Edea: Excuse me, did a little boy come this way?

Squall: You don't need to worry, it'll be okay. In the end, that kid can't go anywhere.

Edea: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for him, but there's nothing that can be done.

(Ultimecia appears)

Squall: ....She's still alive?!

Edea: ...A sorceress, is it?

Squall: Yes, Mama Sensei [so much more amusing than "Matron"]. Though I was sure we had already defeated her.... step back please.

Edea: It's all right. There is no further need to fight. That sorceress is only seeking someone who will succeed her sorceress' power. A sorceress cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power. I, too.... am a sorceress, so I understand. I shall take on this sorceress' power. I don't want a child to become a sorceress.

Sorceress Ultimecia: I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away.

Squall: Mama Sensei!

Edea: Is it... over now I wonder?

Squall: Perhaps.

Edea: You called me "Mama Sensei." Who are you?

Squall: SeeD. A SeeD of Balamb Garden.

Edea: SeeD? Garden?

Squall: Mama Sensei thought up both SeeD and Garden. Garden raises SeeDs. SeeDs defeat the sorceress.
Edea: What are you talking about? You are... that child's future, aren't you?

Squall: .... Mama Sensei.

Edea: So, please go home. This isn't your place.

Childhood Squall: ..... Sis is gone. Am I all alone? Who's heeeeee?

Edea: It doesn't concern you. It's better if you don't know anything. You're the only Squall for whom it is all right to stay here. Do you know how to get back? Are you okay on your own?

It seems that a little bit of clarification on Ultimecia's final line is in order, for the general edification of the world. Heh heh. The verb that is used in the Japanese is "kieru," which can mean to fade, to disappear, to vanish, to dissolve, to cease being or to be extinguished, and can be used as a euphemism for "to die." I really should have provided a note on that, in order to elucidate what would otherwise simply have passed by unknown.

Now, to insert my own thoughts in this little matter; I shall say from the top that I am of the mind that Sorceresses have a limited lifespan, and are, therefore, subject to death, as any other human would be. Edea's line of "A sorceress cannot die while still a sorceress is immortal as long as she has her power, or that she cannot "rest in peace," as it were, until her powers are given to another candidate. Ultimecia doesn't WANT to die; that much is evident in her words. She's telling herself that she can't die like this, and the way she phrases it, in Japanese, is in the form of a sort of "proprietary imperative" (I am not a linguist, so the proper jargon is something with which I am not entirely familiar. If anyone who is familiar with Japanese linguistics and the classifying terminology should read this, feel free to instruct): taken at COMPLETE literal value (i.e. if one were to translate it word-for-word into English), one would get "Still... disappearing manner.... to it one must not go." Ugly as it is when ascribed according English semantic terms,
it's a fairly common sentential construction in Japanese which expresses the fitness (or lack thereof) of a given action.

...

Anyway, the implication seems to be that Ultimecia is not willingly abandoning her powers, but rather, her body is goading her to proffer them up unto someone else, so that it can do the natural thing and expire. I would imagine, and this is pure supposition, that a sorceress who has been ostensibly "killed" yet is unable to give up her power would suffer tremendous pain; her body wants to die, and *is* dying, but cannot seek the grave until it is free of that which Hyne bequeathed.”

END QUOTE.

-----

Does this source strike you as bad? Feel free to try and find an equally convincing source, but I am quite convinced by this. As long as a sorceress has her powers she cannot die. It seems that when a sorceress is 'killed', she gives away her powers simply because of how painful it would be to be frozen in the dying moment forever.

It would be akin to being eternally stuck in the moment of death, continuously experiencing the pain of the moment. It's only to be expected that a Sorceress would likely give up their powers so that they could die when in such a situation, as Adel and the 11 Sorceresses encountered as SeeD traveled to the future might have done.

...until a more convincing source comes along, we can prove sorceress immortality, and show how it makes perfect sense in the storyline, but we cannot prove infinite/prolonged lifespan. Here Hyne enters the picture.

Remember in the story about him, he creates a few men and women for slaves, takes a nap, and then wakes up and finds them to have grown beyond his control. That means his nap lasted for anything from a few hundred years to several thousand years, plenty of evidence that he in any case had prolonged life, and any sorceress after him could have inherited some, if not all of that gift.

NOTE: The story of Hyne can be viewn here:

http://www.geocities.com/aarinfantasy4/guideint3a.jpg

This entire argument shows that Rinoa could live on for "many generations", and that it is actually made very plausible based on
ingame facts.

A couple of other points to contest this aspect of the theory are that Adel seeking a successor suggests that Sorceresses did not have eternal life, and that Ultimecia's hair being grey indicates that she was experiencing the effects of aging, something that wouldn't take place were she immortal.

Adel was at war with the rest of the world, and many in her country hated
her, so chances of assassination were pretty damn high. Obviously, if she were 'broken in body' she’d want to give up her powers to someone capable of continuing where she left off.

As for the differences in Ultimecia and Rinoa's hair, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the Sorceresses encountered as Squall, Rinoa, and the others passed through Time Compression all bear physical distinctions that are much greater changes from "normal" bodies than simply having a different hair color from what they might have once had.

Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle:
During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words illustrate that Rinoa believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably, as Squall and her friends did:
"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on."
"It escapes you..."

Time Compression:
Rinoa wanted to use Time Compression to control time and allow her to meet Squall again and be with him. Evidence to support this comes from Rinoa's statement while onboard the Ragnarok with Squall, before she was taken into custody by Esthar:

I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you...

While it could be argued that Ultimecia's goal had nothing to do with meeting with Squall or making the moment on the Ragnarok stand still (all time up to at least the point of Adel's death was apparently caught in the Time Compression wave, which would include the moment on the Ragnarok, only its state of present in the Time Compressed Worl was when it was it the Kashkabald Desert, after Squall and Rinoa's moment together), this should be considered:

Rinoa's statement indicates a desire to keep time static, and doesn't have to be taken at face value.... The indication is that Rinoa wants time to stand still, wants time to suit her own wishes, something time compression certainly does.

It puts all of time into one frozen point, giving her full control over it.

...

Mad people do mad things, like wanting to become God and rewrite time...

Also, because Rinoa would have gone mad, or possibly due to GF-use, she may no longer remember her previous desire to use Time Compression to meet Squall.

The Location of Ultimecia's Castle:
This ties in with the previous aspect, Ultimecia's desire -- subconscious or otherwise -- to meet Squall also being illustrated by her having her Castle anchored near the Orphanage, which had the flower field behind it where she and Squall had promised to meet.

Rinoa And Possible Amnesia:
In regard to Rinoa's insanity and the possibility of her suffering amnesia, consider this:

Also take note of Rinoas GF usage. GF’s slowly erase bits and pieces of your memory over time, so this could quite possibly amplify the insanity, so to speak. After all, Squall forgot large parts of his childhood after only a few years of GF usage, so if Rinoa kept on using GFs for some time, this could greatly affect her memory. She may even have used GFs just to forget Squall!

Also, we can be certain that Ultimecia at least had some contact with a GF before Griever, as Tiamat was a GF she had taken control of:

(From when using Scan on Tiamat.)

Tiamat
Used to be a GF. Became a monster under Ultimecia's power. Its
Dark Flare destroys all enemies.

The Possible Origin Of Ultimecia's Name:

"In ancient Greece there was a king named Mausolus and a queen named Artemisia. When Mausolus died, Artemisia was so grief stricken and devoted that she made it the rest of her life's work to build him the greatest tomb ever built, which she did. The tomb was so amazing that it's one of the Seven Wonders of the World, and it's why extravegant tombs are known as "mausoleums" to this day.

Well, in the Japanese version of FFVIII, Ultimecia is spelled "arutimishia". It's entirely possible that her name was intended to be
Artemisia, but the translators mistakenly thought it was supposed to be Ultimecia, since the spell Ultima is spelled "arutima" in Japanese."

End quote.

Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into a drink and drink it.

Consider then that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations (German for instance). In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do. Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close connection, almost sibling-like? Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she, despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies. Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.

Rinoa cannot handle life without her Knight and husband, to whom she is completely devoted and dependant of, and she ‘becomes’ Artemisia, the grieving wife. In the real life story, Artemisia goes rather insane, what with spending her entire life building his tomb. We all know what Artemisia did in the game.

Ultimecia's And Rinoa's Faces:
During the game's ending FMV, Ultimecia's face flashes over Rinoa's and she also bears quite a resemblance to Rinoa. While Edea, Zell, and Seifer's faces also flash over Rinoa's during that scene (Edea's doing so first and a total of five times even, whereas Ultimecia's does so only three times), there's a somewhat greater emphasis on those moments when Ultimecia's face does so.

Edea's face just flashes quite insignificantly past, while Ultimecias face first comes once, like Edeas. Then it comes closer to the screen, Ultimecia is now staring at you, in the midst of Rinoas face staring at you, and then finally after another brief clip of Rinoa, a close up of Ultimecias eyes are then seen staring intensely at you, before everything changes, the other faces flash in that weird "hole" and you end up seeing Rinoas helmet bursting (which could be taken as a symbol of Rinoa "dying" and Ultimecia taking over if you would).

What were then Squares intentions at putting the only FMV pictures of Ultimecia over Rinoas face before Rinoas helmet bursting?

One could take it as being nothing special, and that it shouldn't be sinlge out among all the other weird images we see. But one could also take it as a hint of some connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia.

As for differences in Rinoa and Ultimecia's bodies (their shoulder-width and breast-sizes, for example), again, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the other Sorceresses encountered in the Time Compression wave all bear physical aspects that are much greater distinctions from what one would expect with "normal" bodies.

The Sorceresses' Wings:
In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white feathers, the same color as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown emerging from a group of black feathers, the same color as the feathers of Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Sorceress aside from Rinoa to be shown to have wings. This is an indication of who Rinoa will become.

...we [only] see two sorceresses in the game with wings. One with white wings, the other with black. Obviously, it can be interpreted as nothing special, but it can also be seen as a hint towards a connection... [though it could be argued, based on the theme of the game being love and Rinoa being representative of it and that which is good that] the connection may merely be representing that Rinoa is good and that Ultimecia, with Rinoas powers, is bad.

...

[Going back to the matter of the name "Artemisia" for a moment], the theme [of the game] has been said to be love, but I find it strange (well not really) that everyone only thinks of the happy side of love.

It's as if love has only one side to it. No, love has a dark side. People can be driven mad by grief after loosing a love one. Love can twist people into doing evil things. Love isn't all happy, so the theory can easily be said to fit in with the theme of love.

Griever:
Squall carries a ring with a lion engraved upon it, the ring's name being "Griever." This is also the name of the GF that Ultimecia Summons during the final battle of the game and which she Junctions herself to during the course of the battle. During Final Fantasy VIII, Squall gives this ring to Rinoa. Perhaps Griever was contained within the ring the same as Doomtrain was contained within the Solomon Ring. Or perhaps it was even a creature that Rinoa herself created in honor of Squall.

-The Response-

There's no strong indication that Sorceresses do not age. While Edea says in the ending that they cannot die in peace until they have given up their powers, we do not know that this means that they cannot die at all so long as they have their powers.

It should also be noted that it's not known how old Edea was when taking care of Squall and the others when they were 4 to 5 years old. If she was merely a teenager herself at the time, she may well be no older than 30 years old in the game's present, in which case there would be no reason that she should be showing obvious effects of aging. Further, it may be that she simply is younger than Cid.

The point about the Sorceress' bodies goading them to release their powers still requires the pre-conceived assumption that Sorceresses do not age, something which has yet to be soundly substantiated. It also requires assuming that none of the 13 Sorceresses that SeeD fights and kills during the course of Final Fantasy VIII would have had the will power to fight against their pain long enough to heal if they could have stayed alive as long as they wished.

As for Ultimecia's final words, it should be noted that Ultimecia seems to speak in terms of urgency when seeking to pass her powers on to Edea:

I...can't...disappear yet.

According to the one who translated the Japanese dialogue quoted above, she spoke in the imperative in that version of the game, as well, with it being obvious even without that being stated: "I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away." I find it odd that the one doing the translating drew the conclusion that it was impossible for a Sorceress to die while still in possession of their powers immediately after Ultimecia has just stated that she can't allow herself to die yet in the imperative, implying it's something she wishes to avoid. Seeing as how she wishes to avoid dying while in possession of her powers, that's a good indicator that it's possible for her to do so.

Something to note about Japanese is that it doesn't always translate literally into English and that context must be established. In terms of context, "A sorceress cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power" could very well mean "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." In fact, taking into account that Ultimecia was speaking in the imperative and that the English crews translating Final Fantasy VIII would have had the benefit of being able to work with the Japanese developers to establish context (something often done when dubbing Anime), it would be illogical to assume that Ultimecia was simply stating this to convey that Sorceresses can live forever so long as they have the Sorceress Power.

With Ultimecia speaking in the imperative, her line would more likely mean something to the effect of "I must not die before I give up my powers" rather than "I can't die because my powers prevent me from doing so."

In other words, the scene seems to be indicating that Ultimecia fears dying before she can give up her powers, making the concept possibly similar to the Star Wars concept of dying in the Dark Side of the Force, as the Dark Jedi feared the fate that would await them should they die under such circumstances; according to Star Wars: Empire's End, to die while in the Dark Side of the Force is to be doomed to "...perpetual madness... as if to live forever like an open wound, experiencing terror without respite." It goes on to say that "That is a fate [Emperor] Palpatine wants to postpone, at all costs." Considering that the Final Fantasy developers are fans of Star Wars and have often taken inspiration from it, it seems likely to me that they might have had a similar concept in mind in regard to the Sorceress Power. In any event, Ultimecia's statement reflects an imperative, even desperate defiance of dying while still in possession of her powers, suggesting that she could die while she still had them.

Of course, that might leave the possibility that under normal cirumstances (i.e. not getting the hell kicked out of her), Ultimecia could have lived forever, having eternal life unless dealt a mortal wound, such as is the case with Elves in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or Vampires in an abundant number of tales.

As for the matter of Hyne's longevity possibly being indicative of Sorceresses being ageless, it's an interesting point and there's little that can be said to disprove the possibility in this regard, yet there is also nothing that necessarily supports it either, however. Hyne having immortality is not a guarantee that the Sorceresses did, as well.

It would still seem that the game might give an indication that Sorceresses are mortal in that Adel was seeking an heir:

Laguna
"What the heck has he done with his life? Don't you wonder?"
"When Ellone was about 2, there was a massive hunt for girls in Esthar."
"Esthar soldiers came to Winhill and Elle's parents resisted. They were
killed on the spot."
"The massive hunt was to find the successor for Esthar's ruler, Sorceress
Adel."
"Ellone was raised by Raine who lived next door. And I came to know her."
"Then there was another massive hunt for a successor in Esthar again."
"Elle was taken away, even though I was there..."
"It's the most painful episode of my life."
"So I rescued her and sent her off to Winhill. Shortly after that, Raine
died."
"And Ellone was sent straight to an orphanage."

The belief that it was in the event of an assassination attempt requires assuming a few things:

1) That Adel wouldn't be wounded so badly by the assassination that her body forced her to give up her powers before she could get close to Ellone (if you believe in that concept) or that she wouldn't have simply died instantly while not close to Ellone (if you don't believe in the concept of the Sorceresses living as long as they wish or until their bodies force them to give up their powers),
2) That the Sorceress Powers would go to Ellone in the first place,
&
3) That Ellone would accept the powers in the event that it was required she do so.

Granted, these things also apply in the event that she intended to prepare Ellone to take her powers as she sensed her own mortality being nearly realized through natural causes, but it's far more likely for her to have been in the position to pass on her powers without being so greatly hindered if she intended to do so when she sensed her natural death coming near than if she intended to in the event that she received a mortal wound that would incite her body to begin goading her to accept death immediately. With this in mind, it's not reasonable to assume that Adel intended to have Ellone succeed her in the event of an assassination.

The point concerning Ultimecia's hair not being indicative of aging is a good one, however.

To conclude the matter of Sorceress immortality, Edea is not a valid source of an indication that Sorceresses may be ageless due to her possibly being younger than her husband and still quite a young woman herself. It also cannot be reasonably supported that Sorceresses have life so long as they have their powers. However, the idea alone that Sorceresses are ageless cannot be disproven, and Ultimecia's hair being grey is not necessarily indicative of aging, as all Sorceresses aside from Rinoa display altered anatomy -- at least from what would be "normal" -- of some sort.

This aspect of the theory is really not well-supported or conclusively-opposed, but with Adel seeking an heir and there being no reasonable indication that she would have intended this to be in the event of an assassination, it seems more probable that the Sorceresses are subject to aging and natural death, but, admittedly, still not strongly probable. This aspect is best regarded as neutral, but if it were to lean in favor of being for or against the possibility, the burden of reasonable assumption would lay more heavily on those seeking to promote the concept.

As for the matter of Utlimecia's final lines during the battle with her, the first five lines are likely simply making reference to the game's concept of the "Fated Children" (also the name of the game's opening song, as "Liberi Fatali" is Latin for "Fated Children"), those destined to face Ultimecia in battle:

(In Galbadia Garden.)

Sorceress Edea
"So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"

Squall
(What is she talking about?)

Also note that the children were raised and trained to become SeeDs and combat Sorceresses. This battle was what their entire lives had been leading them to. The game's entire story involves pre-destination (fate).

While it could, perhaps, be inferred that the last five lines were making reference to the inevitability of losing that which is precious, seeing as how Ultimecia was absorbing all existance into herself during the battle with her, it's just as likely -- if not moreso -- that she was making a statement concerning the inevitability of SeeD's defeat and her victory, rather than some philosophical statement concerning the passage of time and loss. This aspect of the argument does nothing in favor of the theory on its own and would requite standing alongside a good deal of other support to be cosidered a valid piece of support itself.

In regard to Ultimecia's goal, it having anything to do with Squall has no reasonable connection to the goal the game tells us Ultimecia had:

(The Tutorial's description of Time Compression.)

Time Compression

A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become

compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to

give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have

on regular human beings.

Note what she says before the final battle:

"Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs."

"The price for your meddling is death beyond death."

"I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining."

"There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."
(Bolded for emphasis.)

Further, note what is said when using Scan on Ultimecia's first form during the final battle:

Ultimecia
A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and
taking power from all sorceresses.

Finally, take not of what is said when using Scan on her final form in the void of nothingness:

Ultimecia
Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing
all existence as we speak.

Based on what we're shown and told, it would only seem to indicate that Ultimecia desired to rule everything, and possibly rewrite creation with herself as God. To conclude that her goal had something to do with Squall would only apply if one had already accepted Rinoa as being Ultimecia and was using backwards reasoning to determine a purpose for using Time Compression. In other words, it would be using the conclusion as support for the evidence, something that doesn't work when trying to support the conclusion itself.

While it's true that Ultimecia would have full control over time and Rinoa's words may have indicated a desire for time to suit her wishes, again, Ultimecia expresses only a desire to have power and rule. There's no indication given that she cares about Squall in any capacity, nor does she ever so much as express recognition toward him. Were Rinoa to have gone insane because of losing Squall and previously have been trying to control time to get back to him, even if she had forgotten this, it's reasonable to expect that she would at least show recognition toward him -- if not affection -- in some way, rather than simply trying to kill him, and possibly have hinted in some way -- even if she didn't understand it herself -- that she had been seeking someone else in the past aside from just Ellone. For that matter, her declaration to the SeeDs that they would be her slaves was addressed to them as a group, which would include Squall. Further, if he falls during the battle with her, he can be absorbed into time the same as the rest of the party.

To conclude this matter, Ultimecia's goal is never indicated to have possibly had anything to do with Squall nor does she ever express any recognition toward him, despite the loss of him supposedly being what sent her down the road to insanity. For this aspect to be of any indication toward Rinoa being Ultimecia, one would have already had to have accepted the concept and, thus, be working backwards in their reasoning.

As for the matter of the location of Ultimecia's castle, consider that Ultimecia hated SeeDs -- whom she knew were destined to face her in battle one day ("You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?") -- and that she had slaughtered them shortly before casting the Time Compression Spell, made evident by their bodies being scattered across the beach behind Edea's House:

Linkage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/DeadSeeDs.jpg).

They don't appear to have been dead for long, so it's not as though Ultimecia built the Castle, killed the SeeDs and then parked it there many years before with the intention of it remaining there forever. Also, the bloody thing floats. Why build a floating castle to begin with if you're going to park it in one spot?

The dead bodies of those SeeDs are a testament to Ultimecia's reason for anchoring the castle there. It makes much more sense -- especially in light of Ultimecia's hatred of the SeeDs and the obvious short amount of time that those SeeDs had been dead -- to conclude that Ultimecia parked the Castle there and slaughtered the remaining SeeDs to settle a grudge before casting Time Compression.

The Castle being located above where the SeeDs had been brought together and raised for a time also allows for another point of emphasis on the Fated Children concept, as did the Orphanage being Squall and the others' point of focus when passing through the Time Compression wave in an attempt to arrive in Ultimecia's era.

As was the case with the overall concept of Ultimecia seeking to use Time Compression to meet Squall, this on its own doesn't serve as any evidence toward supporting the concept that Rinoa is Ultimecia, and would only apply if one had already accepted the concept and was using backwards reasoning.

We're not given reason to believe that Rinoa had a need -- or desire -- to continue using GFs after the defeat of Ultimecia. To assume she did is unsupported assumption. Granted, we know that Ultimecia had some possible GF usage due to Tiamat being a monster under her control within her castle, but that's not indicative of Rinoa's GF usage, nor do we know if there had been any other GFs that Ultimecia even might have used. Unless she actually Junctioned herself to Tiamat -- something we can't even be sure of -- and possibly more GFs than just him, we don't know that she would have suffered any memory loss, really.

Again, Ultimecia having control of Tiamat only tells us that Ultimecia had been having contact with at least one GF before she fought SeeD in her era. That conveys nothing of Rinoa's GF usage unless one has already accepted that Rinoa is Ultimecia and is, again, using backwards reasoning.

Once more, I must reiterate that if losing Squall was the main reason for Rinoa going insane, it stands to reason that we would have seen some measure of recognition toward him on Ultimecia's part. Instead, she displays no recognition or affection toward him, merely tries to kill him, and tends to address SeeD as a whole.

Moving on to the matter of Ultimecia's name and it possibly being a derivation of "Artemisia" and with Ultimecia's actions possibly reflecting a Rinoa who "became" Artemisia, while it's certainly an interesting bit of information, I don't think that's a very strong bit of support when debating in terms of the game itself and it's better to stick with just the matters within the game itself when doing so, I've learned. For instance, no matter how tempting it might be when arguing that JENOVA was controlling Sephiroth in FFVII, pointing out that JENOVA means "New God" and that the Sephiroth is the Kabbalistic term for the interrelated divine emanations of God which will lead back to him -- thus, it being a tool of God -- is not a practical point to make simply because the names themselves might have been as deep as the inspiration went, with there being no higher allegory intended.

By the way, the castle that Ultimecia has erected in no way resembles the Mausoleum of Mausolus:
Linkage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/TheMausoleumofMausolus.jpg).

In fact, it seems to be in a condition quite the opposite of how Artemisia treated the tomb of her husband. Whereas she was trying to achieve perfection with it and would have abhorred the idea of it bearing any flaws, Ultimecia's Castle is in great disarray and has obviously long before fallen into decay.

However, it's still interesting enough to not be totally disregarded and is a fair enough point for consideration if there is other evidence to support the notion.

Also -- and not that this is terribly, if at all, relevant -- we don't know that the SeeDs attacked Ultimecia first. The Orphanage was likely their base of operations or one of them, at least.

Anyway, this matter is some interesting information that's not necessarily relevant on its own, but could possibly serve to accentuate other evidence if it is present.

In regard to Ultimecia's appearance in the ending FMV, there's really not a lot to indicate that the appearance of Ultimecia's face was not meant to bear any greater significance than when Edea's face appeared, but it's not very compelling on its own, or even with the Artemisia information. As for a resemblance between Ultimecia and Rinoa, it should be noted that one can compare against or impose the faces of Selphie, Ellone, and Edea over Rinoa's, and all bear strong resemblances to her, as well. In a game in which all characters are designed by the same Person, and especially with it being a character designer known for making his Female characters look similar to one another -- and also when the same actor did the facial modeling for more than one of these characters -- there are going to be resemblances in their facial features, something which must be kept in mind as their similarities are not necessarily indicative of there being an indication of some connection between the characters, either as them being related to one another, or as being the same Person:

Linkage to a picture of Rinoa (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Rinoa2.jpg).
Linkage to a picture of Edea (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/SorceressEdea2.jpg).
Linkage to a picture of Selphie (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Selphie.jpg).
Linkage to a picture of Ellone (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Ellone.jpg).

A good point is made, however, in regard to the differences in Ultimecia and Rinoa's bodies alone not being enough to disregard the possibility of there being a connection between the two.

As for the matter of the ending FMV, it seems to again require already assuming that Rinoa is Ultimecia in order to conclude that the scene was intended to infer something of that nature, but there's nothing to dismiss it as a possible indication if there is otherwise strong support for the notion.

On the matter of the Sorceress' wings, on both occasions in which the feathers appear around Rinoa in the opening, the feathers appear in the wake of Squall's Gunblade passing, so it's not necessarily intended for the feathers to be making a statement about Rinoa alone. They could simply be intended to be foreshadowing of the mood of the game itself or of the dire situations that were yet to come.

Anyway, if the Sorceress Power caused one Sorceress to develop wings, it doesn't seem very far-fetched for it to allow any other to do so, though it's true that Rinoa and Ultimecia are the only ones ever specifically seen with them. Though, by that same token, if it's being argued that Rinoa's physiology can change into Ultimecia's because the physiology of other Sorceresses have undergone far more dramatic transformartions, it's equally logical that any other Sorceress could have grown wings.

This matter isn't a huge point in favor of the theory, but it does have a fair bit of grounding. On its own, it may not do much, like with the possible origin of Ultimecia's name or the ending FMV of the game, but if coupled with those and other stronger evidence, it would certainly be relevant and extremely worthy of note. Further, it can't be adequately contradicted as a point in favor of the theory. However, by the same token, without further evidence to support the theory, it remains merely a point of possible foreshadowing toward dire situations ahead, specifically in the area of extraordinary circumstances falling between Squall and Rinoa to nearly keep them apart on several occasions.

As for the final matter brought up within “The Theory,” when using Scan on Griever, the following information is given:

Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power,
continues fighting without vanishing.

Note the aspect about it being "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF." This means one of two things:

1) Either Griever was an idea in Squall's head that Ultimecia pulled out and gave form to during the battle,

or

2) Griever was a creature that already existed and which Squall had known about.

In regard to the first possibility, Ultimecia does frequently cause party members to lose an entire stock of a specific Spell during the battle against her. This suggests that she is, indeed, capable of reaching into the mind of another and extracting something. Further, a translation of Ultimecia's Summoning of Griever from the Japanese Version of the game would suggest Griever was created from the feelings -- and, thereby, the thoughts -- of those facing her:

(Translated by the same fellow that translated the information concerning Ultimecia's death in Sir Bahamut's document.)

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

In regard to the second possibility, Squall owns several items that feature Griever, including his ring, his necklace, the small emblem dangling from a chain connected to the handle of his Gunblade, and a large symbol on the lid of the case in which his Revolver Gunblade came:

Linkage to a screenshot of Squall's necklace (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/SquallOpening.jpg).
Linkage to a screenshot of Squall's Revolver Gunblade and its case (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/GunbladeOpening.jpg).

It should further be noted that Squall already knew of the legendary GF Bahamut:

(From the beginning of the battle with Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center.)

Bahamut: "I am... Bahamut."
Squall: "The legendary GF...."

If he knew of one legendary GF, it stands to reason that he might have known of another, one that is said to have been regarded as the strongest in his mind, this possibly intended to mean "in his opinion."

In either case, Griever was most certainly either an idea in Squall's head or a being that he already was aware of. Further, there were more items bearing Griever's symbol than just Squall's ring. There's nothing about Griever that actually supports the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

In response to the concept of “Rinoa is Ultimecia” itself, something else worthy of note is that Ultimecia attempted to kill Rinoa several times. The first time was when she sent the Iguions to kill her. She later tries again in Galbadia Garden if Rinoa is in the party. Even if she is not, Ultimecia possesses Rinoa for a brief moment and uses her to pass a message to Seifer, and then sends Rinoa into a coma.

Later, she uses Rinoa to disable the locks on Adel's tomb, so as to free the elder Sorceress. Immediately after, she ditches Rinoa in space, leaving her to die.

If Rinoa were her past self, we can reasonably assume she would be aware of it to some extent, even if insane, as she would be witnessing her own past and the events that led up to her dive into insanity. Granted, if one is making the argument that Rinoa would have forgotten her past completely due to the use of GFs across several centuries, that would present reasonable grounds, perhaps, for her not being aware of the past, though that, in itself, is part backwards reasoning (as it would require already believing Ultimecia to be Rinoa) and part assumption of something not supported and which could only be assumed if one had previously used backwards reasoning (that Rinoa was Ultimecia and had forgotten the past due to GF usage).

-Things That Might Be Used To Argue Against the Theory, But Which Really Don’t Contradict It-
Rinoa Dying In The Final Battle:
Possible Contradiction: Since Rinoa can die and be absorbed into time in the final battle with Ultimecia, if she were Ultimecia’s past self, that should erase Rinoa’s future. In other words, it should erase Ultimecia’s own state of being in the present.

Why It Isn’t A Contradiction: While Rinoa can die in the final battle with Ultimecia and be absorbed into time and Ultimecia not vanish, with the normal flow of time already skewed by Time Compression, Ultimecia was possibly outside the normal flow of time, and, thus, protected. For that matter, she was likely already in possession of the Sorceress Power of all those Sorceresses killed by Squall and the others when they entered the Time Compressed World, and perhaps by virtue of this and being the one who cast Time Compression, she was somehow protected in that regard.

For that matter, to question would require questioning why Squall, Irvine, Zell, Selphie, Quistis, and Rinoa hadn’t already faded out of existence due to their own pasts being swallowed up by Time Compression already.

Rinoa Leaving Her Proper Place In The Time Stream:
Possible Contradiction: Rinoa left the time stream at the moment that Adel died. She and SeeD traveled into the future. Ultimecia would have no longer had a past beyond the point of Adel's death if she were Rinoa. When SeeD got to the future, they would not have found Ultimecia there, for Rinoa would not have been able to become her, being that she left the time stream before she ever became her. Even with Rinoa returning to the exact second that she left the timeline, until she returned to the past again, there shouldn't be an Ultimecia for her to encounter in the future.

Why It Isn’t A Contradiction: Again, there was no longer a normal flow of time due to Time Compression. To argue that Ultimecia should have vanished because her past self no longer remained along a timeline that itself no longer existed even while the past self continued to exist would be completely illogical, especially in light of Squall and the others not vanishing, despite their own pasts having been absorbed into time.

-Conclusion-

Many points used to argue in favor of the theory either already require having accepted it as fact – in which case the conclusion would be used as support for the evidence that’s supposed to support the conclusion, a logical fallacy known as “circular reasoning” that absolutely is never valid in a debate – or require making some leaps in assumption that aren’t definitively supported, and, in at least one case (immortality), are defeated by the concept of Occam’s Razor (“All things being equal, the most simple explanation is the best”).

By the same token, however, most of these things are never definitively contradicted by the source material, in which case their potential as being possible remains. Of course, stating that because they’re not contradicted, they’re as valid for consideration as if they were supported wouldn’t be logical either, as that’s a logical fallacy in which the lack of any contradicting evidence is used to the effort of arguing validity for that which has no support (or, at the least, no concrete support), something else that has no place in debate.

In conclusion, while it can be argued that the possibility is there, that it should be up for consideration as fact – or “canon” as it is called in fandom – cannot be, as there’s simply too much to be assumed that isn’t supported or hinted toward, and too much that essentially requires the audience to write it theirself, taking it out of the hands of the actual writer and assuming intent for them.

The Final Word: While possible, the theory is in no way plausible.

Acknowledgements: I wish to acknowledge and offer my gratitude to Sir Bahamut, the author of the best document that argued in favor of the possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia. Here is the URL to his own thesis on this matter once more:
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

I learned a good deal from you, sir.

I also wish to thank my sweetheart, Carys. I love you, sweetheart. Thank you for being you and just being in my life. You give me all the support I'll ever need to achieve anything.

I wish to thank Square-Enix and the developers at Square for their production
of this game. It's been very important to me.

Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VIII are registered trademarks of
Square-Enix. They own all rights to these two titles, their featured
characters, and the likenesses of said characters.

Star Wars is a registered trademark of Lucasfilm.Ltd, with Lucasfilm.Ltd
holding all rights to said title, including its characters and their
likenesses, and Dark Horse Comics Incorporated holds publishing rights to
Star Wars: Empire's End.

Sir Bahamut

02-28-2005, 08:51 PM

Hm, the quotes worked on this site in any case. Sorry I never gave any proper feedback to that before, but the quotes didn't work which made it dreadfully annoying to read, and then, well, as time passed by I forgot about it.

But reading it now was worth it. Very well written, and I agree with (almost) all of your points, and with your general conclusion on the matter.

Destai

02-28-2005, 09:42 PM

That convinced me.

§håd0w

02-28-2005, 10:24 PM

That has got to be the longest friggin post I have ever seen on these boards...

rubah

02-28-2005, 10:58 PM

to say that time is set in stone really is fallacious

How about set in concrete? Concrete can be molded once but after that it's the same shape until it breaks:)

and I read about a fourth of that, but I still don't know what side you argued forX.x;

Squall of SeeD

03-01-2005, 04:51 AM

How about set in concrete? Concrete can be molded once but after that it's the same shape until it breaks:)

I daresay I like your metaphor more.

and I read about a fourth of that, but I still don't know what side you argued forX.x;

In terms of black and white, I was arguing for the side that says that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. In terms of shades of gray, I was arguing the side that said while the possibility is there, based on what is there and the necessary components that aren't there, it's not plausible for Rinoa to be considered to be Ultimecia in terms of canon.

Sir Bahamut

03-01-2005, 03:48 PM

Have to comment on one of those things I strongly disagree with:

To Sir Bahamut on the nature of time being set in stone: to say that time is set in stone really is fallacious. While Ultimecia going into the past is a natural part of the time that exists and it would not exist without her doing so, in order for the current timeline to be in place (the one in which there is a loop that involves Ultimecia going to the past), there must have been a time in which this didn't occur. In other words, an original timeline in which no one ever went back. One can't have someone going to the past from the future until the future has already come to be at least once.

No, it's not fallacious, at least not from my point of view. Your error here is obvious though, so it's easy to argue back fortunately:

Your error is that you're thinking of the line of time as literally moving from the beginning to end. You musn't think that the line starts at one point and then expands onwards until it stops. You have to think of the line of time as coming to be all at once, past, future, everything.
In other words, every single point of time exist at once, and have always existed at once since time was created(or whatever).

In such a case, there would be no need for the 'original time' I argue against, because the entire line of time with all it's bumps and bends would be there at once. So there isn't anything fallcaious about thinking of time as set in stone. My arguments against the 'original time' are in my FAQ, although you probably read them before.

As for the metaphor of concrete, ie. that you can change time ONCE, but never again, that seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth would the line of time behave like concrete? It seems far more logical that if you in fact CAN change it, you can change it any time you want. You could change it more than once too if you wanted. It wouldn't make sense if it could only be changed once and never again.

Squall of SeeD

03-01-2005, 05:43 PM

No, it's not fallacious, at least not from my point of view. Your error here is obvious though, so it's easy to argue back fortunately:

Your error is that you're thinking of the line of time as literally moving from the beginning to end. You musn't think that the line starts at one point and then expands onwards until it stops. You have to think of the line of time as coming to be all at once, past, future, everything.
In other words, every single point of time exist at once, and have always existed at once since time was created(or whatever).

But it's implied in the game that time doesn't exist like that. That's what Time Compression would have made of time. Previously, it was spoken of as something of the straight line thing:

Doctor Odine: "Vat would be left is ze time compressed world."
"Past, present, and future will all get mixed together."
"You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future."
"Once you're out of ze time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world."

Odine speaks of time as being something one can move forward along. How can that be if it's all an existance-at-once, which is, again, what Ultimecia was trying to achieve by combining "various states of present" as the Tutorial calls it?

In such a case, there would be no need for the 'original time' I argue against, because the entire line of time with all it's bumps and bends would be there at once.

When examining it in the present, yes, it would look like things always were that way, with a being from the future somehow being present in the past long before they should have been alive (or when they should have still been a toddler depending on your point of view in regard to another matter). However, with no interference in time, Ultimecia couldn't have been there before she was born for the simple reason that she wouldn't have existed yet. The present she entered was the far past for her present. Her own parents may not have even been alive at the time.

In order for her to exist and be present in the past many generations before her own time, interference in time had to occur and there had to be a time leading up to her own birth and trip into the past, involving her being born, inheriting the Sorceress Power, and then rising to power as a ruler -- or at the very least, the latter of these taking place, depending, again, on your personal interpretation of another matter -- and then tampering with the past. This particular flow of time would be overwritten in some respects due to the tampering with the timestream, eventually resulting in the loop that "always was."

There would have needed to be at least three "rough drafts" before the timeloop seen in the game was achieved:

(Note: Certain events (such as Edea's learning of SeeD) wouldn't necessarily have had to have occurred in this manner.)

1) The original flow of time in which no interference in time occurred until a certain point, either perpetrated by Ultimecia, Ellone, or by someone else.

2) A new timeline in which Ultimecia will eventually tamper with the past and be defeated, with SeeD either being formed by someone in the past or by folks in Ultimecia's present, with Edea learning of it somehow (possibly through gleaning it from Ultimecia's mind while having been possessed by her in the past).

3) Edea forms SeeD and Garden to battle the Sorceress that will someday threaten time and Squall and the other children in Edea's care eventually confront and defeat Ultimecia. As a result of this battle, Squall and Ultimecia are flung into the past where Squall will mention to Edea that she formed Garden and SeeD (concepts she wasn't even aware of at the time) and with Ultimecia passing on her powers to Edea before dying. Further, it will become part of history that SeeD defeated the evil Sorceress Ultimecia, thus why Ultimecia said they were destined to face her: "So you're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"

4) With the minimum three "rough drafts" now completed, the final timeline commences, this one becoming permanent. Edea forms Garden and SeeD and events play out as we see them do so during the game. Squall will be sent into the past where he will inform Edea of her (maybe) ideas of Garden and SeeD, and Ultimecia will pass on her powers to Edea before dying. The events of the game will occur again and again into infinity, with them appearing to be the only timeline that ever was due to the "rough drafts" being overwritten.

So, yes, an original timeline wouldn't exist, but because it was overwritten. It would be gone and the timeline involving the perpetual loop would more than likely remain forever, as it's likely that someone else interfering in the past could potentially negate their desire to have ever gone to the past, thus causing them to never have done so, thus, there being no self-reinforcement for the past they had created, unlike the timeloop seen in the game.

So, again, when looking at the timeline now, while Ultimecia "always was" in the past at that moment, she simply was not part of that time period and shouldn't have been there anymore than Squall should have been, and she wouldn't have been had time not been tampered with. Edea even tells Squall he doesn't belong there.

While Ellone said that one can't change the past, the People she used to try to change Laguna's past never attempted to subvert Laguna, Kiros, or Ward's will to their own, unlike what Ultimecia did in regard to Edea and Rinoa, the future Sorceress having an objective and intending to take over those who she possessed.

While it's true that Ultimecia doing this resulted in the present and future (for Squall and the others)/past (for herself) that has to take place, to say that it would be impossible (based on Ellone's abilities) for them to have changed anything is false due to the fact that Ultimecia could subvert another's will while in their mind, using the device developed by Odine that simulated Ellone's own power, but which apparently isn't as powerful as hers due to it not allowing Ultimecia to reach as far back in time as she needed to in order to cast Time Compression. If Ultimecia could do this, why could no one else?

The answer is "They could, but they wouldn't." The only time we see any of the People close to Ellone that she sends into the past doing anything within the minds of those they were sent into is when Squall was speaking to Rinoa in space, trying to prevent her from giving up and letting herself die. What Ellone said about not being able to change the past is true, but because she was sending back People who didn't know what the hell was going on and wouldn't have tried to take over Laguna, Kiros, or Ward even if they had. The same People are going to make the same choices everytime. It's this concept of the same People making the same choices everytime because they're the same People that allows the timeloop itself to remain intact.

Ellone can't change the past as the very things she would seek to change would negate her having ever attempted to change them in the first place, as there would be no self-reinforcement for the act of her changing the past. However, someone as far removed from the events being changed as Ultimecia should have a significantly better chance at altering things and not being affected by it to the degree that Ellone would. The farther removed down the timeline one is from a change in the past -- and the less directly related their choice to change the past is to what's being changed -- the less likely their choice to interfere is to be negated.

In other words, because Ultimecia was so far removed from the events she was tampering with, she could tamper to a certain extent and not be as likely to prevent herself from ever existing or choosing to tamper with time as someone a generation removed would be when tampering with the very events that caused them to make their choice. Keep in mind that this only applies to the vital self-reinforcement component of changing the past and keeping it changed. Without establishing a loop with no breaks, it's theoretically impossible to permanently change the past.

To put it another way, Ellone already had this much going against her attempt: She was trying to undo something in the past that was the reason she decided to ever change time. However, it became even more unlikely that she could successfully change anything for even one cycle due to her sending back People that didn't know what was going on and wouldn't have tried to take over the bodies of those they were sent into.

Going back a couple of paragraphs to the establishment of a loop with no breaks (a self-reinforcing loop), that is what makes the events that play out in the game extremely unique in terms of time tampering: It was a successful change to the past because the altered events will result in the altered events, which will result in the altered events again and again. It maintains itself, something which Ellone's attempts at changing the past wouldn't have done for reasons already explained.

To summarize all of this, it is possible to change the past when looking at time as a straight line, but just not very easily and only very rarely could it be changed permanently. Ellone's attemps to change the past couldn't work because she would be preventing herself from ever changing the past to begin with, and unless some extremely convenient series of events played out in the timeline to ensure that she would still have a need to try to change the same thing in the past again, the newly formed past would be undone.

As for the metaphor of concrete, ie. that you can change time ONCE, but never again, that seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth would the line of time behave like concrete? It seems far more logical that if you in fact CAN change it, you can change it any time you want. You could change it more than once too if you wanted. It wouldn't make sense if it could only be changed once and never again.

I don't think that's quite how rubah meant it. At least that's not how I took it. Even if you break concrete, you still have the same concrete, just in another form -- or several others -- the same as you've got the same stone even after you chisel away some of it. To make those changes lasting, of course, you'd need to make sure that some aspect of the concrete was always going to go back and break itself, but that's taking the metaphor too far.

Anyway, I said I liked that metaphor more because concrete's easier for me to associate with something that's broken than stone.

Sir Bahamut

03-01-2005, 08:15 PM

Odine speaks of time as being something one can move forward along. How can that be if it's all an existance-at-once, which is, again, what Ultimecia was trying to achieve by combining "various states of present" as the Tutorial calls it?

You missed my point. Perhaps I didn't portray it clearly enough. What I mean, is that the future isn't 'waiting to happen' as it were, it's already there. So even though Squall and Co haven't witnessed the future occur, people from the future can still come from the future into their own time.

Time compression would make all time exist at once in the same point. I am saying time exists all at once but in the natural line form. To make an analogy, take the line of time to be a road, and people on it as cars driving along the road. What I am suggesting is that this road didn't start off empty, for the cars to then start driving down it. I am suggesting that the road came with the cars already on them.

So if we were to look at the road from a birds view there'd be cars travelling in a continuous infinite stream everywhere on the line of time. Everything's happening 'at once' but not at the same point in time, as it were. Hope I made that somewhat understandable.

When examining it in the present, yes, it would look like things always were that way, with a being from the future somehow being present in the past long before they should have been alive (or when they should have still been a toddler depending on your point of view in regard to another matter).

This is what I mean. I just believe this would be the case since time first begun. Time would be literally set in stone from the very beginning, so we could zoom in on any point and watch a row of events before switching back to a past far in the past and observing that instead.

While Ellone said that one can't change the past, the People she used to try to change Laguna's past never attempted to subvert Laguna, Kiros, or Ward's will to their own, unlike what Ultimecia did in regard to Edea and Rinoa, the future Sorceress having an objective and intending to take over those who she possessed.

Well, this is simply a disagreement on what degree of importance Ellones statement should have. It's true, that technically speaking, Ellone doesn't necessarily know the truth based on what she does in the game. However, I firmly believe this was Squares way of letting us in on their interpretation of time in the game. It ties up that entire plot point, sets the scene for Squalls subsequent attempt to save Rinoa and fits in perfectly with the implied notion of fate. Fate(in conjunction with Ellones statement) would for me imply a nonchanging line of time, and that rules out any original time as far as I'm concerned. The alternate explanation I have presented is the one I have then taken as being the most logical.

Of course, I understand that you may disagree, but I am certain it is not because of a fallacy in my argument, but rather in core differences of opinion.

While it's true that Ultimecia doing this resulted in the present and future (for Squall and the others)/past (for Ultimecia) that has to take place, to say that it would be impossible (based on Ellone's abilities) for them to have changed anything is false due to the fact that Ultimecia could subvert another's will while in their mind, using the device developed by Odine that simulated Ellone's own power, but which apparently isn't as powerful as hers due to it not allowing Ultimecia to reach as far back in time as she needed to in order to cast Time Compression. If Ultimecia could do this, why could no one else?

If time was set in stone, nothing Ultimecia did while possessing anyone would be changing the past, it'd simply be another event set in stone.
So it's only false if you believe the past can be changed, which brings us back to cardinal differences which aren't answerable in the game(on a factual basis anyway).

It's this concept of the same People making the same choices everytime because they're the same People that allows the timeloop itself to remain intact.

Or much simpler(in my eyes anyway): the timeloop remains intact because you can't change the past.

Without establishing a loop with no breaks, it's theoretically impossible to permanently change the past.

I don't see why this conclusion is drawn. There certainly isn't any basis for stating something as 'theoretically impossible' in such a discussion. Perhaps 'theoretically impossible' within the framework of your interpretation of time.

To summarise: Whether or not the line of time is changing or not isn't a question that can be logically concluded from ingame information. My own view works out perfectly logically, and I see it as the most logical. Your own view is that an original time is necessary for it to all start.
I haven't been in any way convinced by your arguments I'm afraid(doubtlessly goes both ways), so unless you can point out any logical errors I won't change my opinion here.

rubah

03-01-2005, 11:21 PM

X.x more long posts.

In terms of black and white, I was arguing for the side that says that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

Excellent:D You should like, put that at the first, so people know what to read for ^_^

Squall of SeeD

03-01-2005, 11:24 PM

I see your point regarding time existing all at once now.

This is what I mean. I just believe this would be the case since time first begun. Time would be literally set in stone from the very beginning, so we could zoom in on any point and watch a row of events before switching back to a past far in the past and observing that instead.

But we would still be left with those events in the future being a result of those in the past, such as Ellone's capture by Seifer being a result of her falling to the Planet from space shortly before. She fell from space, then was captured, not the other way around.

Well, this is simply a disagreement on what degree of importance Ellones statement should have. It's true, that technically speaking, Ellone doesn't necessarily know the truth based on what she does in the game. However, I firmly believe this was Squares way of letting us in on their interpretation of time in the game. It ties up that entire plot point, sets the scene for Squalls subsequent attempt to save Rinoa and fits in perfectly with the implied notion of fate.

The past was changed to some degree, however, when Ellone was connecting Squall to the closest moment in the past to the present while they were in space. Squall's thoughts were being sent to Rinoa, and though they may have only been transmitted seconds into the past, they were still altering the previous few seconds for Rinoa.

Fate(in conjunction with Ellones statement) would for me imply a nonchanging line of time, and that rules out any original time as far as I'm concerned. The alternate explanation I have presented is the one I have then taken as being the most logical.

Fate is usually shown to be a product of the choices made by those involved, though. Such as in the Greek Tragedy Oedipus Rex, in which every decision made in an attempt to circumvent fate only served to bring it to fruition. In the game, Ultimecia knew that she was supposed to be defeated by SeeD, and though she doubtless wished to avoid this fate, her actions only served to ensure her demise.

Another example of choices establishing fate is Squall's choice to dive into space after Rinoa, if only to be with her as they both died. This choice served to allow SeeD to secure the Ragnarok, which subsequently allowed them to enter Lunatic Pandora, defeat Adel, rescue Ellone, and set in motion Odine's plan to put a stop to Ultimecia.

One could even take this back further to Ultimecia's choices again. In this case, her choice to have Rinoa open the lock on Adel's Tomb. There doesn't seem to have been any reason for her to have had to do this, as the Lunatic Pandora would have pulled Adel's Tomb down to the Planet anyway with the Lunar Cry, and the lock on the Tomb could have as easily been disengaged there by Seifer. But Ultimecia chose to have Rinoa go out into space to deactivate the lock, likely for no other reason than that she could. As a result, we have Squall's choice, which led to Ultimecia's defeat. Ultimecia's own choices caused her undoing like a Domino Effect.

One could take this back further still to Rinoa's choice to be present when Edea was confronted in Galbadia Garden, and her subsequent possession by Ultimecia and inheritance of the Sorceress Power. Fate is inescapable, yes, but choices are what determines fate. Who People are determines the choices they'll make. Fate is inescapable because it's a product of who People are.

Of course, I understand that you may disagree, but I am certain it is not because of a fallacy in my argument, but rather in core differences of opinion.

More than likely.

Or much simpler(in my eyes anyway): the timeloop remains intact because you can't change the past.

Yes, but the reason the past couldn't be changed is because the same folks in exactly the same situations will make exactly the same choices everytime. It's not so much a rule of the time continuum as it is a result of who People are and how they'll make choices. In other words, it's fate.

I don't see why this conclusion is drawn. There certainly isn't any basis for stating something as 'theoretically impossible' in such a discussion. Perhaps 'theoretically impossible' within the framework of your interpretation of time.

In this particular case, the game itself shows us these particular past events set in place by a being operating from the future are self-sustaining. The timeloop maintains itself. The same choices will be made every time and the same events will follow, leading back to the revival of the timeloop.

A loop without any breaks has been established, setting in place a series of events that will always come to be. Based on us being shown that these events are self-sustaining, it follows logically that any changes rendered in the past that aren't self-sustaining would break, Ellone's desire to alter the past being removed if she had succeeded being an example of this.

Your own view is that an original time is necessary for it to all start.
I haven't been in any way convinced by your arguments I'm afraid(doubtlessly goes both ways), so unless you can point out any logical errors I won't change my opinion here.

I would say it's logical that -- while time would be existing everywhere along its course at any one time -- certain things must have occurred in order for certain other things to be in place. In this case, I would say that we can't have someone in 2,223 A.D. if their great, great, great, great, great grandfather died in 2,0005 A.D. before he could produce any children and without any of his sperm being saved for artificial insemination. The future is dependent on the past, and not self-sustaining on its own. The self-reinforcing nature of the timeloop itself shows us this.

Another thing that requires note and that goes along with the earlier point concerning Odine stating that SeeD would move toward the future after the Time Compression wave passed over the present era is that Ultimecia needed to reach the far past in order to cast Time Compression to affect all of time itself. If being in any one place throughout time was as "active" so to speak and non-dependent on other aspects of time as you're suggesting, why would this have been necessary?

Anyway, I imagine we've pretty much discussed this matter as far as we can and I expect your next Post will be the last or next to it in this discussion, so thanks for the discussion, Sir Bahamut. It certainly wasn't a disappointment, as was the case last time.

Excellent:D You should like, put that at the first, so people know what to read for ^_^

Well, I do, just not in those words. ^^;

Ultimately, I wish to show that while the theory is possible -- as anything never definitively stated or contradicted is -- it isn't plausible.

rubah

03-02-2005, 01:23 AM

Hmm. Maybe I've been trained to ignore everything that isn't in the actual body of a paper ^_^

You definitely deserve a cookie though.

I'll leave the actual reading to other people though-_-

Sir Bahamut

03-02-2005, 08:01 PM

But we would still be left with those events in the future being a result of those in the past, such as Ellone's capture by Seifer being a result of her falling to the Planet from space shortly before. She fell from space, then was captured, not the other way around.

Naturally, but since all of time existed at once the loop would already be in place from the beginning, without an original time.

The past was changed to some degree, however, when Ellone was connecting Squall to the closest moment in the past to the present while they were in space. Squall's thoughts were being sent to Rinoa, and though they may have only been transmitted seconds into the past, they were still altering the previous few seconds for Rinoa.

Well, I don't think even a single second was changed in either case, and that those events were also set in stone. That's the whole crucial element with the line of time being set in stone: loops would also be set in stone. The line of time would in other words be bumpy.

As for the next long thing on fate, it's important to note that I basing my conclusion ALSO on Ellones line. It is combined that I find the implication to be a time set in stone. A philosphical discussion on fate is not something I wish to engage in, as it doesn't really matter, and will only draw this out.

Yes, but the reason the past couldn't be changed is because the same folks in exactly the same situations will make exactly the same choices everytime. It's not so much a rule of the time continuum as it is a result of who People are and how they'll make choices. In other words, it's fate.

Certainly that could be used as a general explanation within a small framework like the loop, but it would not suffice as a full statement in my theory on time in FF8. In the broader sense, you'd need a broader statement, like "the line of time cannot be altered" simply because that's the way time 'works'. Kind of like comparing Newtons formulas for gravity with Einsteins formulas for gravity. In a small framework, Newtons laws are perfectly good to use. But in a larger framework Einsteins formulas become critical.

In this particular case, the game itself shows us these particular past events set in place by a being operating from the future are self-sustaining. The timeloop maintains itself. The same choices will be made every time and the same events will follow, leading back to the revival of the timeloop.

A loop without any breaks has been established, setting in place a series of events that will always come to be. Based on us being shown that these events are self-sustaining, it follows logically that any changes rendered in the past that aren't self-sustaining would break, Ellone's desire to alter the past being removed if she had succeeded being an example of this.

Yeah, you're quite right about that. Didn't see your point at once yesterday.

The future is dependent on the past, and not self-sustaining on its own. The self-reinforcing nature of the timeloop itself shows us this.

Doubtlessly, cause and effect is always going to be in place, so for any given event in time we need a previous event(ignoring the unpleasant questions about any beginning of the line). But the loop also showed us that the past co-exists with the future. I simply believe this applies outside the loop and logically to the entire line of time.

Any given event would have a previous event, but any given event would ALSO have a NEXT event. Any event would have a parent and a child, so to speak. That's at least what I think, although I find your own view to be perfectly logical as well.

Another thing that requires note and that goes along with the earlier point concerning Odine stating that SeeD would move toward the future after the Time Compression wave passed over the present era is that Ultimecia needed to reach the far past in order to cast Time Compression to affect all of time itself. If being in any one place throughout time was as "active" so to speak and non-dependent on other aspects of time as you're suggesting, why would this have been necessary?

What reasons/limitations required Ultimecia to be in the 'far past' to cast TC is unknown to me, as it is not revealed in the game. As such, there could be a number of explanations fitting in with either theory on time.

Anyway, I imagine we've pretty much discussed this matter as far as we can and I expect your next Post will be the last or next to it in this discussion, so thanks for the discussion, Sir Bahamut. It certainly wasn't a disappointment, as was the case last time.

I enoyed it too. It got me rethinking some of the ideas I had, and helped me get a more sound picture and description of my own theory, as well as understanding the 'original time' side far better. Always healthy getting your opinions challenged, I guess.

By the way, I'll probably expand a bit on the Time section in the FAQ to include some more on the 'original time' vs unchanging time bit(with due credit of course).

Destai

03-06-2005, 10:46 PM

Just throwing this in.

"Squalls sword will pierce my heart"
"I guess its ok if its you Squall, No one else"

seiyuimore

03-07-2005, 02:55 AM

I still think that U is not R. . . For someone who was born and raised in English language, how come in the future she has broken English?
Like the "Kurse SeeD" not "Curse SeeD"
I think square soft wants to indicate that Ultimecia has difficulty in saying "C" while Rinoa never have difficulty in saying "C" in English.

Ever considered that Ultimecia is Rinoa's and Squall's daughter or grand daughter in the future?

Sir Bahamut

03-07-2005, 03:45 PM

Dialect changes pretty quickly you know. If you had spoken to someone who lived in England several hundred years ago you would have noticed a difference. Since Ultimecia lives so far into the future, it's only natural that she wouldn't have had the exact same dialect(people tend to copy eachother in that respect).

Although I still agree that from Squares perspective, they probably weren't thinking that deep.

Destai

03-07-2005, 04:23 PM

um..maybe it was a typo.

Ichimonji

03-07-2005, 04:28 PM

Ultimecia: ...SeeD... SeeD......SeeD...... SeeD, SeeD, SeeD! Kurse all SeeDs. Swarming like lokust akross generations. You disgust me. The world was on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time compression'. Insolent fools! Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs. The price for your meddling is death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining. There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whom shall I exterminate first!? I'll start with you three.

Definitely not a typo.

seiyuimore

03-07-2005, 10:14 PM

The question is, which town that has that dialect? Estharian, Galbadian, Balamb, Winhill, Timberian and Shumi don't have that dialect. Or you are saying that Ultimecia made it herself? Why would she do that?

Ichimonji

03-07-2005, 10:22 PM

Of course no town has that dialect now, she's from the future.

seiyuimore

03-07-2005, 10:25 PM

But Sir Bahamut said that dialect could change very quickly when you stay in one place for a long time. Where did Ultimecia stay then? Someone must have created that dialect somehow or someone from outer space or something visited the FF VIII World and create new town there and stay there. But as we know, there is no new town in Ultimecia world.

rubah

03-07-2005, 11:20 PM

You've obviously never read that one internet joke where it sujests tat we al spek lik tis.

Or something like that.

Probably the people of the future (more than likely the people from esthar) decided that C was a useless letter, and replaced the soft c with s and hard c with k. CH can be faked with a tsk sound anyways^_^

All about improving for the future. Or laziness.

Squall of SeeD

03-08-2005, 06:45 AM

The real mystery in regard to Ultimecia's accent is why everytime she uses a sharp "c" sound she substitutes it with a "k" except when speaking of Time Compression:

"...SeeD..."

"SeeD......SeeD......"

"SeeD, SeeD, SeeD!"

"Kurse all SeeDs."

"Swarming like lokusts akross generations. You disgust me."

"The world was on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time-compression'."

Big D

03-08-2005, 08:18 AM

The real mystery in regard to Ultimecia's accent is why everytime she uses a sharp "c" sound she substitutes it with a "k" except when speaking of Time Compression:Maybe you played a different edition of the game from me, but in my version she definitely says "kompression" during the dialogue you quoted.
Her final form, however, speaks in a normal accent.

seiyuimore

03-08-2005, 10:59 PM

Hmm, then why she used the "k" things? Don't think Rinoa could ever invented new language. . .

Destai

03-08-2005, 11:10 PM

Maybe it was just where she took up residence for a number of years before Squall and co. confronted Ultimecia.

Sir Bahamut

03-09-2005, 01:49 PM

Don't think Rinoa could ever invented new language. . .

Pronouncing the letter "C" more like a "K" is hardly inventing a new language :rolleyes2

seiyuimore

03-09-2005, 10:23 PM

But still it creates different dialect.

Moreover, why she wants to be one with adel? wouldn't she think she possessed her past life? it would be easier

Sir Bahamut

03-10-2005, 03:10 PM

Well, Ultimecia(Rinoa) wouldn't know who Rinoa was at the time she puts her plans into work. Now, 'fusing' Adel and Rinoa would leave Ultimecia with a very powerful sorceress that would be very powerful. An ideal creature to accomplish her plans with in other words.

And as for the dialect, as I said, dialects change all the time, we just don't notice it until we look back some time after, because we're all absorbing it without noticing it. Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future. IT the dialect HADN'T changed a bit, that'd be pretty weird.

Destai

03-10-2005, 04:08 PM

Maybe Square originally planned for Rinoa to be Ultimecia but scraped making it a part of the storyline because of parts that didnt make sense. :greenie:

Gnostic Yevon

05-14-2005, 04:22 PM

Timeless R=U Theory

This is based on a theory in Physics stating that Time is an illusion.

The theory runs something like this:
1.) All the experiences we have or remember having are in the tructure of the universe in the configuration that you experience.
2.) For some configurations, there is a greater probability of them being experienced than others, due to physical laws etc.
3.) Other possible configurations exist but are not experienced due to the probability factor.

Now for the Rinoa = Ultamecia theory:

In such a world is Time Travel possible?

I think so, but only to configurations that already included you time-traveling to them. In other words, if history doesn't record that you time traveled to that reality, you cannot go there. You would never alter these realities because you were *supposed* to be there.

Now barrowing from a different game series (FFX/X-2)

Suppose Yuna of X-2 decides to somehow travel backward in time to tell herself about what would happen to her and others around her. So she arrives "in the past". But is it just any version of the past? No, it's a past in which Future Yuna (Yuna 2) visits the Past Yuna (Yuna 1). So from Yuna 1's perspective, a weirdo claiming to be her from the future comes to visit and tells her about some future events. From Yuna 2's perspective, she sees herself in those days, including knowing what will happen. Including the visit that she is making now. But if doing so would alter the future to the point that the reason she time travels doesn't happen, then she wouldn't time travel.

Would harming yourself in a universe you visited necessarily destroy you?

Probably not. I don't think that such a thing could happen because if a person murdered their past self, they would thus not be able to kill their past self, so while they could probably make the attempt, any such attempt must fail. So therefore there must be a fate to such a universe. A time traveler could only do those things which he was "fated" to do, because if he does anything else, he would destroy the possibility of a time-travel trip to that time. But to our Time-Traveler, the choice was his and no one elses. He decides and therefore builds a time machine or devises some other method to go there/then. He actually has a bit of freedom while he is there. He can do many things, but he can't do anything that will change the fact that he comes back there.

What is Time Compression then?

I would imagine this Time Compression to be the same thing as viewing all of these possible universes at all possible instants in history at the same time. So there would be infinate versions of everything, and all possible outcomes would occur at the same time. So again going back to the Spira universe, the reality in which yuna 2 does time travel, and all the results thereof, occur at the same time. But the other realities occur at the same time in the same way. So there is a Yuna that got told the future and one that didn't.

I think murding of a past self might be possible at this point. Because all possible outcomes are there, there is a version of you that you are *supposed* to kill. This version of you is not the you of the reality you came from. That version of you has a different future, not connected to your own. killing that you has nothing to do with your future. for all intents and purposes, this is a different person. One that you were meant to kill.

Now, back to Rinoa.

Let's assume for a second that Ultamecia is Rinoa. So Future Rinoa (Rinoa-2) goes back in time. She can meet her past self(Rinoa-1), talk to her and anyone else at that time period. Provided that she posseses the ability to do so, she could posses Rinoa-1, without a contradiction. However, no matter how hard she tries, she will never be able to off herself. Itwould simply be forbidden by physics. And another thing, for Rinoa-2 to be able to return to the Rinoa-1 timeframe she cannot die between the Rinoa-1 timeframe and the Rinoa-2 timeframe. This means that Sorceresses ought to be extremely long lived, because otherwise, Rinoa would probably die of old age or murder long before becoming Rinoa-2. Other than the aging and assaination possibilites, there is simply no physical reason why she could not do everything that Ultamecia did.

Now as to madness and forgetfulness, I suppose it's a possibility. An insane person may attempt to kill a past self, especially if she forgets who she was, and why she would have wanted to time-travel in the first place. Although how such a person would be able to cast such a complex spell with no memories is beyond me. I guess it would depend on whether any such memory loss would affect skills such as magical spell casting. Maybe skills aren't lost, if that is the case, then her forgetting that she was Rinoa isn't even a probleem.

So there's no reason why Rinoa cannot be Ultamecia.

rubah

05-14-2005, 05:39 PM

Except there's not much reason why she SHOULD be.

disapointedchild

05-14-2005, 11:25 PM

Holy crap, who brought this up again?

I sense some flaming.

§håd0w

05-15-2005, 02:05 AM

As do I. That's why I try not to take part in these logical debates anymore. Because people then start to take it seriously; like the people who play D&D for a "living."

Mercen-X

05-15-2005, 02:37 AM

In viewing a world where time is real and not an allusion to our mortality, one commonly creates the visual paradox that typically makes time travel impossible. This paradox being that if any change should occur in the past the traveler is visiting, there arises a chance that it may affect his past self’s decision to time travel to begin with. Thus, it is possible that traveling backward through time could cancel out traveling backward through time.
Looking at the theory that time travel creates a parallel reality for said traveler to view, we can assume that killing “his past self” will not cause him to cease to exist. However, upon his attempt to return to his own time in his own reality, he would find himself in his own time yet still in the reality of “his past self,” as he would never be able to return to his own reality in which he would be dead, for if he did, his travels would be erased and his actions would be undone and he would simply exist in a reality in which he believed he was unsuccessful in traveling through time to begin with.
The “ad infinitum” time loop has been referred to again and again. There’s a flaw in this seemingly hopeless play of events: if one does not realize they are in a time loop, then they cannot be in a time loop. Look at it this way. No one knows who Ultimecia is and the powerful sorceress dies and passes on her powers to Edea (which is how she comes to possess her). Because Ultimecia dies before she is born, she does not have continuity in this proposed “time loop.” The only way for a time loop to exist is that a person (just need one) has to be aware of the repeated events. Think about Groundhog’s Day (Bill Murray) and you’ll understand what I mean. Despite everything you do to change the future, the events continue to play out as they had before. That is a time loop and it is the only way in which it could exist.
So Ultimecia appears to Edea and dies, passing on her power to Edea in the process. Edea prepares the SeeDs because she is aware that Ultimecia will come to control her. After Edea’s defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto Rinoa (apparently). As being a sorceress in no way implies that one should have their own powers even before inheritance, it is sufficed to say that Rinoa inherits her powers from Ultimecia bar “Ultimecia and Edea.” This solves for the PMT.
Rinoa now has the powers of Ultimecia and for some reason falls comatose. When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.
It is theorized that despite this transfer of power, Adel is not controlled by Ultimecia’s drive because she herself was evil and has her own drive. Upon her defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto “who knows where” whereas Adel’s powers (she had inherited already, hence her being sealed) are passed onto Rinoa.
Following shortly thereafter, Squall and his team move through the time compressed world until they reach Ultimecia, where they must kill her. Traveling through Time Compression is the only way to encounter Ultimecia in her physical form. To survive in that world, they need to think about a place they all can believe in, a place of love and friendship, they should all arrive in that place together.

It has been said that Rinoa acquired Ultimecia’s powers as well as Adel’s, but that is flawed as a sorceress does not retain the powers she inherited after passing them unto another sorceress. Thence, the question would be (since Ultimecia’s powers jumped from Rinoa to Adel) at what time did Rinoa reacquire these powers. It could not have been during the final battle as Ultimecia’s powers are then passed to Edea. The only assumption left is that Rinoa reacquired the powers upon Adel’s defeat. Thus she would have the powers of both Adel and Ultimecia, however, this is also flawed as it is that the immense powers of both of these sorceresses would no doubt consume her immediately as it had when Ultimecia alone controlled her earlier on.
Since I’ve stated that I believe Rinoa gets her Angel Wings powers from Adel, the only remaining question is: what became of Ultimecia’s powers before the final battle?

Here’s another thought:
What if Adel did not retain her own powers whilst obtaining those of Ultimecia? What if Adel’s own powers were passed onto Rinoa during her inheritance of those of Ultimecia? This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant. Thus, only the compressing of time can Ultimecia’s powers and body reunite.

Even if this theory is true, the question still remains as to who Ultimecia is. However, I would deny that it were Rinoa.

Sir Bahamut

05-15-2005, 02:03 PM

There’s a flaw in this seemingly hopeless play of events: if one does not realize they are in a time loop, then they cannot be in a time loop.

This makes no sense. Of course a time loop can exist without the people in it knowing that they're in one. No one is aware of it, because the loop looks identical for each round. In fact, the loop is completely unchanging, so in reality, you only need to think of it as having happened once. Thinking of it has having happened any more times is completely unnecessary, as all those other times would be identical to the first.

Think of it as a video. The events in the video only happen once. Of course, you can watch the video over and over if you want to, but that doesn't mean anything.

Edea prepares the SeeDs because she is aware that Ultimecia will come to control her.

Arguable. She may have reasoned her way to this, but it seems more likely that she simply did it to carry out what she realised was her destiny.

As being a sorceress in no way implies that one should have their own powers even before inheritance, it is sufficed to say that Rinoa inherits her powers from Ultimecia bar “Ultimecia and Edea.” This solves for the PMT.

What is PMT? Anyway, Rinoa took ALL the powers inherent in Edea, not just part of them. This can easily be proven.

When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.

Where did you get this from? Adel didn't receive powers from anyone when she was freed in space. She simply still had her old powers, which she never gave away. There is absolutely no indication that she got any other powers. In fact, it wouldn't make sense if she did.

Upon her defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto “who knows where” whereas Adel’s powers (she had inherited already, hence her being sealed) are passed onto Rinoa.

Again, Adel didn't have Ultimecias powers. Adels powers came from a completely different source. So all that happens is that Rinoa receives Adels powers. There are no extra powers left unaccounted for.

Thence, the question would be (since Ultimecia’s powers jumped from Rinoa to Adel) at what time did Rinoa reacquire these powers.

This question can be dropped because it's based on the assumption that Rinoa gave away her powers to Adel in space, something which obviously didn't happen. So all your speculation is uneccesary. Here is exactly what happened:

Edea becomes a sorceress at the age of 5 --- Edea receives powers from Ultimecia --- Edea gives all her powers to Rinoa --- Adel gives her powers to Rinoa --- Rinoas powers eventuall reach Ultimecia(or Rinoa IS Ultimecia).

That's all there is to it.

This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant.

A sorceress CAN have the powers of two different sorceresses. This should be evident simply by playing the game and noticing that both Edea and Rinoa have powers stemming from two different places.

Kamiko

05-15-2005, 02:12 PM

So basically, what happened was Rinoa caught Seifer and Squall in bed together and her hair turned white from the horror. She then decided to get plastic surgery to look completely different and somehow, the theory of not being able to be 2 yous in one place at the same time, is irrelevant, but since it's just a theory anyways, I suppose it doesn't matter. I don't know, I see no proof behind this theory but am inclined to believe it because it's interesting.

Sir Bahamut

05-15-2005, 07:34 PM

Not exactly. If you want an updated view of the R=U theory, go to:

www.gamefaqs.com

Find Final Fantasy 8 --> FAQs and Guides --> Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ.
Oh, and here can be two "yous" in a place at once in FF8. This is proven b the fact that a young chuld Squall stands next to the Squall we play in the scene at the Orphanage in the ending.

Mercen-X

05-15-2005, 08:53 PM

This makes no sense. Of course a time loop can exist without the people in it knowing that they're in one. No one is aware of it, because the loop looks identical for each round. In fact, the loop is completely unchanging, so in reality, you only need to think of it as having happened once. Thinking of it has having happened any more times is completely unnecessary, as all those other times would be identical to the first.
The thing is that people keep saying that these characters are "caught" in a time loop. But since none of these characters carries a continuity through the events, then no one can be "caught" in this time loop. I'm not the one who referred to the time loop as "ground hog's day with no Bill Murray" in so many words. I know that the time loop only occurs once. It bugs me that people can focus on that so much without trying to imagine what happens further in the future. What happens after Ultimecia goes back in time? The world doesn't cease to exist because she vanished from it. Time would continue to pass even after she disappeared.

Arguable. She may have reasoned her way to this, but it seems more likely that she simply did it to carry out what she realised was her destiny.

Maybe.

What is PMT? Anyway, Rinoa took ALL the powers inherent in Edea, not just part of them. This can easily be proven.

PMT was (I think Skyblade's) theory of Power Multiplication. That with each loop in time, Ultimecia would acquire more power as she continued to pass on her own powers and the powers of the sorceress which she possessed onto her new possessee. What I'm saying is that Edea had no powers before she took on the powers of Ultimecia. Therefore, Rinoa didn't receive her powers from Edea but from Ultimecia, who ultimately did not receive her powers from whoever the hell she did receive her powers from. The ultimate source behind all sorceress inheritance is Hyne.

When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.

Where did you get this from? Adel didn't receive powers from anyone when she was freed in space. She simply still had her old powers, which she never gave away. There is absolutely no indication that she got any other powers. In fact, it wouldn't make sense if she did.
When Edea's powers passed onto to Rinoa, she regained her self-awareness. Since Rinoa's self-awareness was absent and she regained it shortly after releasing Adel, I assumed the same play of events was responsible.

Here is exactly what happened:

Edea becomes a sorceress at the age of 5 --- Edea receives powers from Ultimecia --- Edea gives all her powers to Rinoa --- Adel gives her powers to Rinoa --- Rinoas powers eventually reach Ultimecia(or Rinoa IS Ultimecia).

This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant.

A sorceress CAN have the powers of two different sorceresses. This should be evident simply by playing the game and noticing that both Edea and Rinoa have powers stemming from two different places.
What two places does Edea's powers come from?

Sir Bahamut

05-15-2005, 09:32 PM

The thing is that people keep saying that these characters are "caught" in a time loop. But since none of these characters carries a continuity through the events, then no one can be "caught" in this time loop.

Agreed.

PMT was (I think Skyblade's) theory of Power Multiplication. That with each loop in time, Ultimecia would acquire more power as she continued to pass on her own powers and the powers of the sorceress which she possessed onto her new possessee.

Ah, yes, remember it now. But if the powers kept adding up, Ultimecia would eventually become so strong that she'd beat Squall. If she did that, she'd be able to compress time, which effectively means we can't play the game, simply because she compresses ALL of time.

Can be negated depending on your view of Time compression, but still...

What I'm saying is that Edea had no powers before she took on the powers of Ultimecia. Therefore, Rinoa didn't receive her powers from Edea but from Ultimecia, who ultimately did not receive her powers from whoever the hell she did receive her powers from. The ultimate source behind all sorceress inheritance is Hyne.

Edea did have powers before she got Ultimecias. You must not have seend the ending in a while. If you'll recall, during the ending, Edea takes Ultimecias powers because "[Edeas] already a sorceress" and she doesn't want any of the children to become one.

So although Edea did get powers from Ultimecia, she also got powers from someone else on beforehand. But yes, the powers do originate at Hyne.

When Edea's powers passed onto to Rinoa, she regained her self-awareness. Since Rinoa's self-awareness was absent and she regained it shortly after releasing Adel, I assumed the same play of events was responsible.

Edea regained her self-awareness after giving up her powers because Ultimecia stopped possessing her at that point. Ultimecia can only possess Sorceresses, and after the fight in the Auditorium, she obviously figured Edea had lost her use. She thus forced her to give her powers to Rinoa. Edea was then no longer possessed.

However, Ultimecia can simply chose to stop possessing a person without making them give uo their powers. She only made Edea give them up as a part of her plan to free Adel, so she could possess her instead.

Since Rinoa was only a tool to free Adel, as soon as Rinoa had carried out her mission, she was left in space to die. Ultimecia stopped possessing her and concentrated on bringing Adel back.

What two places does Edea's powers come from?

Edea says and I quote that "I first became a sorceress at the age of 5".
We don't know who gave her those powers, we just know she got them. Then she recieved more powers from Ultimecia later on.

Mercen-X

05-15-2005, 10:48 PM

Wait. In the game, Rinoa admits to being a sorceress. It's not a revelation to her but to her friends. When you said two places, for Rinoa I assumed you meant Adel and Ultimecia. Where else did she acquire her powers to become a sorceress (and be aware of it) as Edea had?

Sir Bahamut

05-16-2005, 12:12 AM

I meant Adel and Edea. Although Edeas powers are an inherent part of Ultimecias(because of the loop) Adels come from an outside source meaning she has powers from two origins.

It's not a revelation to her when she tells Squall because she must have realised it ever since she "woke up" in space.

Luthien

05-23-2005, 01:58 PM

Ok... whoever brought this up again is going to pay...