Delita (Most likely spoilers)

[feioncastor]

After answering that question I just answered about the rest of the game, I was curious about how some of you view a few things.

Deltia did some pretty dirty stuff to get to the top. He betrayed everyone who trusted him from the Nanten and Goltana all the way up through the Church. He killed whoever he needed to because his motive was to clean the country of Ivalice up. He was tired of the corruption brought on by having nobility like the Beoulve's and such. So he, a peasant, fought and lied his way to the top to fix the problem, right?

Well, I'm wondering if any of you guys feel that Delita was doing the right thing. He accomplished his goal, but he gave no credit to Ramza, or to any of the others who aided him. He killed a lot innocent people, including people who were just following orders and probably didn't know any better.

I'll post what I think about it when a few people have posted what they think, so I can gain a bit of perspective on the subject.

Feion

[DocFrance]

Delita was a narcissist. He was doing what he thought was the right thing in his mind. He had been used all his life as a commoner, and now felt the need to use others as a way of making things "right."

Delita was definitely not doing the right thing, which resulted in his own demise.

[BG-57]

In many ways Ramza and Delita are reflections of each other. Both taking parallel paths to their destinies. It's interesting to consider that Ramza and Delita could have traded places had Teta lived and Alma died.

While Ramza tries to change things from the outside, Delita clearly operates from within. While Ramza slays Zodiac Braves and rescues people, Delita curries favor and forgies alliances. While it netted Delita fame and fortune, I wonder how much happiness he found. I sure hope it wasn't much.

[DocFrance]

Well, supoosedly he died a stabbity death, so he couldn't have been too happy with the end result.

[feioncastor]

I've never looked at Delita as a bad guy. He wanted to fix the world, and he used people to do it. It may have been unethical, but I feel that the end justifies the means.

Feion

[DocFrance]

It may have been unethical, but I feel that the end justifies the means.
Hey, so did Hitler!

[feioncastor]

Even so, it's hard to look at a guy like Delita and call him a bad guy.

I mean, Vormav, he was a bad guy. St. Ajora turned out to be a bad guy, as did all the zodiac braves. Dycedarg, he was clearly a bad guy. As was Cardinal Dracleau. But I just don't get that impression of Delita.

So let me get this straight. The legends you hear about the Zodiac braves saving the earth is all a bunch of BS? The Zodiac Braves are really bad guys, and everyone thinks they're not, and then Ramza kills them all as he goes along because they're bad guys, and St. Ajora isn't really a good guy either? He's just another bad guy that becomes Altima?

Feion

[BG-57]

He's not evil, but certainly amoral. Perhaps he feels the death of his sister frees him from taking other people into consideration when making his plans.

I'm sure all the people whose backs he climbed over to reach the top can console themselves in that their sacrifices helped usher in a golden age. :rolleyes2



So let me get this straight. The legends you hear about the Zodiac braves saving the earth is all a bunch of BS? The Zodiac Braves are really bad guys, and everyone thinks they're not, and then Ramza kills them all as he goes along because they're bad guys, and St. Ajora isn't really a good guy either? He's just another bad guy that becomes Altima?
Feion

The plot of FFT is essentially a revisionist history of Ivalice. So if the events that happen to Ramza are true, and the Zodiac monsters and Ajora are indeed the Zodiac Braves of legend, their legend within the game must be false.

The Brave story mentions a Yudora Empire and Holy Church of Father Fara which killed Ajora at Golgorand. According the the Glabados Church (followers of Ajora), the city with the headquarters was destroyed in a natural disaster, which they claimed was the wrath of god.

So the revisionist view of these events would be:

Ajora, and the Zodiac Braves fooled people into thinking they were saviors (probably possesed humans through stones the way they do in the game) and Father Fara and followers opposed and destroyed them. The Glabados followers, not knowing of their demonic nature, wrote stories about the matyrdom of Ajora. As the Fara chruch fell into decline, only the Glabados teachings were left, so the myths become the official story.

So what makes the Gerominak scriptures so damaging is that is has an eyewitness account of Ajora that contradicts the official history of the saint. Even Funeral himself seems to have no idea about the true nature of the holy stones and the Zodiac Braves.

[feioncastor]

How many times did you have to go through the game to figure it out like that? I've played through a few times, and that's what I thought was going on, but I wasn't 100% sure until you just explained it and it all clicked.

Feion

[Roogle]

Someone here said that Delita met an untimely and stabbity death, but it says that Delita had a long and peaceful rule at the beginning of the game. He couldn't have died at the hands of Ovelia, if that's the case.

[BG-57]

I'm on my third play through of FFT. The plot is very conplex and confusing.

As for Delita's 'death', the game never says when that event took place. It could have been twenty years later.

I apply the same rule of thumb for video games as for movies: if you do not see a character die on screen they are usually not dead. Delita is wounded, but far from dead when the scene ends. If there were any justice it would be a mortal wound though.

[feioncastor]

BG, you seem to really despise Delita. Why is that? His goal was pretty much the same as Ramza's, he just used a dirtier way to get there. He was tired of people like Dycedarg and Zalbag being allowed to order the death of people like him or his sister, Teta. So he did something about it. I mean, I would've done it that way too. Ramza had to work much harder and kill of these terrible monstrosities, whereas Delita had to kill off old geezers like Goltana and such. Delita got things done. He fixed the problems that were plaguing Ivalice and made it a happier place. Ramza had a lot to do with that too, but without Delita, Ramza would not have succeeded either. Some of the people that Delita doublecrossed and killed probably would've finished up Ramza, so in that sense, Delita played a huge role. Huge enough, in fact, that only his name appeared in the history books. That's why Alazlam's agenda involves exposing the truth regarding Ramza's role in everything.

But even so, Delita was a key player in the whole thing and thanks to his efforts, Ivalice became a happier place.

And hey, I wanted to ask, does that mean that the teaching of Glabdos Church is nothing but a pack of lies? People thought that St. Ajora was the savior when really he was a bad guy, right? Ironically, after Ramza stops St. Ajora, when he becomes Altima, right after that, it shows the funeral scene being conducted by a priest of Glabdos... Or do I have that wrong? Even after Ramza destroyed the Zodiac Braves and saved the world, people continued to believe that the Braves were good guys.... Crazy. I guess it's because Ramza never bothered telling anyone about his findings in the scriptures and regarding the stones and St. Ajora.

Do I have that right? I'm really concerned that perhaps I don't understand the storyline entirely...

Feion

[BG-57]

BG, you seem to really despise Delita. Why is that? His goal was pretty much the same as Ramza's, he just used a dirtier way to get there. He was tired of people like Dycedarg and Zalbag being allowed to order the death of people like him or his sister, Teta. So he did something about it. I mean, I would've done it that way too. Ramza had to work much harder and kill of these terrible monstrosities, whereas Delita had to kill off old geezers like Goltana and such. Delita got things done. He fixed the problems that were plaguing Ivalice and made it a happier place. Ramza had a lot to do with that too, but without Delita, Ramza would not have succeeded either. Some of the people that Delita doublecrossed and killed probably would've finished up Ramza, so in that sense, Delita played a huge role. Huge enough, in fact, that only his name appeared in the history books. That's why Alazlam's agenda involves exposing the truth regarding Ramza's role in everything.

But even so, Delita was a key player in the whole thing and thanks to his efforts, Ivalice became a happier place.


I disagree with you about Delita's methods being justified. I would never conscience kidnapping, betrayl, murder, and lying even to create a better place. Anyway, wouldn't that be kind of hypocritical of him to create a just society based on a foundation of such sordid doings?

I had sympathy for him over Teta but he frittered that away over his various unwholesome activities. He's no worse than say Zalbag or Roefel, but they get a comeuppance by the end. I find Delita's motives understandable, but I think he still got off lightly.



And hey, I wanted to ask, does that mean that the teaching of Glabdos Church is nothing but a pack of lies? People thought that St. Ajora was the savior when really he was a bad guy, right? Ironically, after Ramza stops St. Ajora, when he becomes Altima, right after that, it shows the funeral scene being conducted by a priest of Glabdos... Or do I have that wrong? Even after Ramza destroyed the Zodiac Braves and saved the world, people continued to believe that the Braves were good guys.... Crazy. I guess it's because Ramza never bothered telling anyone about his findings in the scriptures and regarding the stones and St. Ajora.

Do I have that right? I'm really concerned that perhaps I don't understand the storyline entirely...

Feion

There is also mention of a King of Murond who summoned demons and the Zodiac Braves fought them. I think the summoning part is true, but I suspect that the Zodiac Braves ended up serving the demons instead of destroying them. They may have well began by fighting Altima and the others, but could have been corrupted. Naturally since the church is based in Murond, and there are no competing accounts of what happened, I'm sure the church did its best to omit the events that made the followers of Ajora look bad. I'm sure the heroics of Father Fara were ruthlessly surpressed.

An interesting (and possibly unanswerable) question is was Altima always acting through Ajora or did he posses and corrupt him at a later date (like Weisgraf)?

[Roogle]

Delita was very ungrateful for all that the Beoulves did for him. I think Zalbag was wrong in killing Teta, of course, but I know that if she survived, she wouldn't have approved at all of what Delita was doing.

Delita crossed the line for me when he attacked Balmafula.

[feioncastor]

Yeah, but Balmafula was just one of many. I'm sure there were many others like her that were too minor to even include in the actual storyline, considering the number of people Delita supplanted.

And I don't think Delita didn't appreciate what the Beoulves did for him. I think he may have been blinded with fury when Zalbag ordered Algus to kill his sister, but I think Delita always appreciated the nobility of Balbanes and even of Ramza, despite telling Ramza that he'd kill him if he had to.

As if he actually could. Ramza would work Delita raw.

Feion

[BudSoda02]

Remember the scene where Ramza gets ambushed while praying & talking to Delita at the church? If it weren't for Delita kickin' everybody's butt, Ramza would have a uber tough battle & might've been killed. Sure, Delita did do some things that were wrong, but he made Ivalice a lot better place. By the way, Hitler was an Ethnic cleanser, while Delita was SO not. So just drop it!! More later.
Thanks- BudSoda02 BudSoda02@yahoo.com

[BG-57]

Although his motivations are complex, Delita never does anything that is not in his own best interest. So even when he does good and noble things (such as aiding Ramza), his motives are suspect.

Ramza frequently does things that would have benefitted him more if he had kept his mouth shut. He does the right thing, even when it gets him serious trouble.

Delita would make a great character for a Greek play: a man with a potential for greatness, but undermined by tragic flaws.

Of all the historical figures in history the one he most reminds me of is Napoleon Bonaparte. A low ranking commoner who oppurtunistically works his way to the top, aided by a real genius for military strategy. And even in exile, Napoleon knew the greatest victory would be how posterity regarded him.

[DocFrance]

If you've ever played Suikoden II, the contrast between Ramza and Delita is startlingly similar to that between the Hero and Jowy.

[feioncastor]

I've never played any of the Suikoden games...

What systems are they on?

[BG-57]

Suikoden I and II are on the Playstation.

Suikoden III and IV (eventually) are on the Playstation 2.

I don't have a PS2, but the first two games in the series are neat. You recruit 108 characters in each, so character development is minimal, but for me the most fun is how the castle/home base gets upgraded the more recruits you get.

You get to use up to six characters in the active party, each with unique skills and abilities. You do the usual random monster/dungeon thing, but it adds in massed battles and other interesting subquests and minigames.

I'd say of the two, Jowry is more admirable.

[Trusty Rusty]

I never liked Delita and especially never liked Algus.
Reasons:
1) Never got to level them up like the rest of the characters
2) Always stole my kills or
3) Was always getting killed
4) [SPOILER] At the end of chapter one he gets peeved off at Ramza when Ramza did nothing. This ticked me off

I laughed soooo hard and long when Delita was stabbed at the end...and so did my friend.

It would be interesting however, to play the game through Delita's story.

[Wiegrahf42]

What Delita did was immoral but, for me understandable. His sister the one he truly cared about was ordered killed by the people he served. Delita then got his vengence on the system that had used him and killed his sister by manipulating and murdering his way to the top, purging those he thought corrupt. The one thing that threw the wrench in his plan's gears was the fact that he actually began to fall in love with Ovelia.

[Squall of SeeD]

::Placed in another Thread::

[Masamune·1600]

I do not approve of Delita. At all. First off, the "end justifies the means" logic is inescapably unethical. This is compounded by the fact that Delita's actions were, in many cases, completely reprehensible, even if that logic thread had justification. Furthermore, I question Delita's motives. There is not much in the game to suggest this, I admit, but I've always felt Delita was less about "cleaning up corruption" and more about "getting to the top." BG-57 makes an excellent point regarding this.

By the way, if he truly loved his sister, then he never would have followed such a bloody, manipulative path. Really, I see many similarities between Delita and Wiegraf, not the least of which is that, in "getting things done", each betrays the memory and ideals of a sister. Actually, in some respects, both characters exhibited traits of madness. Admittedly, one would be hard-pressed to describe Delita as even remotely insane, but his single-minded drive is so antithetical to what he really "hoped to accomplish" that it at least merits mentioning.

There is also no indication that Delita's ascent changed the status quo. Other than the members of the aristocracy and nobility that died in order to hasten or facilitate Delita's rise to power, there seems to have been little done to the higher-ups of Ivalice's society. While killing them would be immoral, if Delita were so focused on "eliminating corruption", he likely would have done so. More to this point is that the Glabados Church continued. If Olan Durai intended to present the truth to the heir to the throne, but was burned at the stake by the Church, Delita did little or nothing to reform an institution whose intrigues he was clearly aware of. Hence, I would argue that even the end Delita sought was ultimately little more than a power grab.

This reasoning concerning Delita can certainly be debated; it's not meant to be a definitive statement. It's a personal interpretation. However, that still doesn't change something that is clear: Delita's actions were irredeemably unethical and immoral, and nothing changes that.

Without going into too much detail here, "St." Ajora Glabados was the host for his Lucavi alterego Altima. The ultimate intent of the Lucavi was to resurrect Ajora, to give Altima (and by extension the rest of them) a vehicle to Ivalice.

Germonik was originally dispatched by the Yudora Empire to verify their belief that Ajora was a spy. Germonik never proved the allegations, but did find that Ajora had gathered several Zodiac Stones. When Zodiac Stones and Ajora are mentioned in the same sentence, there's probably going to be trouble.

[Roogle]

Balmafula was one of many, yes, but she had fallen in love with Delita, or had at least become infatuated with him. It says that she was unable to draw her sword when he attacks her. For him to do that to her and either attack her, or cut her tongue out, needlessly, it clearly shows that he had gone too far.

And I would assume that Delita and Ovelia's scene wasn't years upon years later, otherwise the sprites would have changed, or more information would be given. They don't have any problem changing sprites or using sprites for one story scene, such as the modified Alma for Ajora, or even his portrait. Instead, he's just wearing a cape, right? King Delita and Queen Ovelia are their names used in the ending, so I assume it was just a year later or a bit after the marriage. Any farther on that would extend into the reach of "long and peaceful rule" would have had sprite changes to reflect that.

[TurkSlayer]

I understand what Masamune1600 is saying, however, I do not consider Delita a villian. In the end, he was still Ramza's friend. Even when he was being stabbed in the gut by his wife, he remembered his friend. :D Though it does upset me about striking Balmafula. She loved him, yet he would strike her even if she could not do the same to him. At least he didn't kill her. And in the end, he did bring peace, even if he had to do a lot of cruel and dirty things. Besides, I always felt sorry for Delita, not only because of his sister, but because he was constantly pushed around and treated like dirt by everyone besides the Beoulves, and in the end even they betrayed him. In his shoes, I know I would have done almost the exact same things he did. The person I truely hated and in a way truely blame for what Delita did was Algus. if not for him, Delita probably would have never even considered doing the things he did.

[Masamune·1600]

I understand what Masamune1600 is saying, however, I do not consider Delita a villian. In the end, he was still Ramza's friend. Even when he was being stabbed in the gut by his wife, he remembered his friend. :D

I think you misinterpreted this scene in the epilogue. When Ovelia stabs Delita, she accuses him of murdering Ramza and planning to kill her. After killing Ovelia, Delita stumbles back and says, "Ramza... What did you get? I...." This has nothing to do with remembering his friend, whom he would have murdered had he gotten in his way. This was a natural reaction to Ovelia's accusation.



And in the end, he did bring peace, even if he had to do a lot of cruel and dirty things.

The Lion War continued after the Church had offered mediation. True, the Church was corrupt, but if peace were Delita's true aim, he would have supported the effort to some degree, even if he clashed with the Church and Dycedarg on the specifics.


Besides, I always felt sorry for Delita, not only because of his sister, but because he was constantly pushed around and treated like dirt by everyone besides the Beoulves, and in the end even they betrayed him.

Did you also feel bad for Wiegraf? Or Balk, for that matter?


The person I truely hated and in a way truely blame for what Delita did was Algus.

Yes, I dislike Algus as well.


I still feel that, in the end, one of Delita's main objectives was his own ascendancy. If his real aim had to do with justice, he would have been in Ramza's party. It's that simple. Justice is not synonymous with vengeance. Even if Delita wasn't about procuring power, he has no understanding of this fact. Delita, having started out as a commoner, should have been in a better position than anyone to push for social equality. There's no indication of this; all we know is that he "brought peace to a chaotic kingdom." Ironically, his manipulative actions throughout the game were often counterproductive to the concept of peace. But that's beside the point. For all of his desire to supposedly bring an end to manipulation, the Church still burned Olan at the stake for attempting to reveal the truth. Even if Delita never learned the truth of Ajora Glabados, he obviously knew the Church was corrupt. Justice demands that Olan not be burned.

However, even if Delita's true concern was justice and the elimination of corruption, his methods are antithetical to his designs. One cannot compromise justice in order to bring it about. Not as I see it, anyway. Delita, whether you agree with my assessment of his goals or not (and it can easily be argued either way; I strongly encourage anyone reading this to form their own opinion and not rely on what I or anyone else have said), abandoned ethics and morality for the purpose of his designs. Ultimately, what this comes down to, is that I feel the end does not justify the (questionable) means. Thus, from a purely ethical standpoint, Delita did not do the right thing.

[TurkSlayer]

I'm not saying what he did was right. He killed and hurt people, and I know that for the most part it was for his own gain. What I'm saying is that ultimately, it did bring peace. And it is true that he did nothing about the church, which really I can't argue with at all. He knew it was corupt, and he probably knew Olan was telling the truth, yet he did nothing. No, I can't argue with those facts. But, as I said before, if I had been him, i would have done the same, with perhaps a few differences. I know he was wrong, everything was he did was wrong, and your right, the end does not justify the means. However, I still do not consider him a true villian, even though he was any a few way evil, but not purely.

[Masamune·1600]

A good point. I'd hesitate to call him a villain, at least in the conventional sense.

[Dark Knight]

i think Delita ended up as a villian because he used people to get to the top (their deaths), something that he despised because he was a commoner. However, I think he was a hero from a commoner point of view, because he showed everybody that he could rise to whatever he wanted to be if he worked hard enough.

[eestlinc]

However, I think he was a hero from a commoner point of view, because he showed everybody that he could rise to whatever he wanted to be if he worked hard enough.

Yes, it goes to show that the best way to triumph over the oppressors is to be even more oppressive. At what price power?

[Hartigan]

He treated people how he was treated to better his life. He was always my favorite character, and I always got told off for it. I still love him.

[BG-57]

I'd find the 'eye for an eye' line of reasoning more convincing had he limited his revenge to the people responsible for Teta's death. That would be Algus, Zalbag, and ultimately Dycedarg. But some of Delita's victims were guilty of only being in the way. Which ironically, is why Teta was killed.

The way he was treated was awful of course, but he seemed little concerned about the welfare of fellow commoners. He simply replaced one despot with another: himself.

[DocFrance]

I've heard it said several times before - Delita is a classic case of narcissistic schizophrenia.

[Vod]

Ok I haven't read all of this yet but I keep hearing stuff about delita getting killed and meeting some kind of demise, am I the only one who watched after the credits? Delita is alive and well and he beats up Ovelia, i'm not sure if he killed her or not...so...yeah, I just had to bring that up

[BG-57]

Ovelia stabs Delita first, after she had discovered how he had used her. He stabs her back and she slumps down, apparently dead. He's wounded but alive as he shares his final thoughts with us.

[DarkMagus]

[color=darkred]The only reason I find it hard to justify Delita as a villan is that he doesn't have dark intentions, that Vormav had. Although Delita's actions may be just as bad as Vormav's (I firmly believe that Delita and Vormav are the roots of every NPC, as Vormav uses not only the Church, but also men like Dycedarg, where as Delita uses everyone to get to the top, only to kill them), I don't believe Delita is a villan. Delita had good intentions, which, by no means justifies that he used and killed many people.

Now, we'll take the scene with Balmafula as an example. Delita knew she was an assassin, and probably knew from the time he met her. However, since Delita's way of doing "business" was to use people, he used her, untill he felt she was going to end his life. Since she had then become a threat to him, he killed her. This may be dirty, and unethical, but it is effective. And, Delita was what I could consider a "Perfect Soldier." He achieved his "goal" of cleansing the nobility, and creating a world of justice and peace. This still doesn't condone his actions.

Honestly, I think all of the holes in Delita's storylines would make a very nice "sequal" to the game. Or, more like, a new game, or even movie/story, at Delita's POV, using FFT's Chapter 1 as a prologue, and starting right after the batte where Teta was killed.

[TurkSlayer]

[color=darkred]

Now, we'll take the scene with Balmafula as an example. Delita knew she was an assassin, and probably knew from the time he met her. However, since Delita's way of doing "business" was to use people, he used her, untill he felt she was going to end his life. Since she had then become a threat to him, he killed her. This may be dirty, and unethical, but it is effective. And, Delita was what I could consider a "Perfect Soldier." He achieved his "goal" of cleansing the nobility, and creating a world of justice and peace. This still doesn't condone his actions.


Your mistaken. He didn't kill Balmafula. He stabbed her, put she lived. If you watch the ending, you see her alive with Olan.

[feioncastor]

Sorry to bump a dead thread, but I think when Delita attacked Balmafula, he pulled out her larynx or something.

Her scream when he advanced on her is like a scream that is suddenly silenced. And she never "speaks" after that.

[Beoluve]

[color=darkred]The only reason I find it hard to justify Delita as a villan is that he doesn't have dark intentions, that Vormav had. Although Delita's actions may be just as bad as Vormav's (I firmly believe that Delita and Vormav are the roots of every NPC, as Vormav uses not only the Church, but also men like Dycedarg, where as Delita uses everyone to get to the top, only to kill them), I don't believe Delita is a villan. Delita had good intentions, which, by no means justifies that he used and killed many people.

Now, we'll take the scene with Balmafula as an example. Delita knew she was an assassin, and probably knew from the time he met her. However, since Delita's way of doing "business" was to use people, he used her, untill he felt she was going to end his life. Since she had then become a threat to him, he killed her. This may be dirty, and unethical, but it is effective. And, Delita was what I could consider a "Perfect Soldier." He achieved his "goal" of cleansing the nobility, and creating a world of justice and peace. This still doesn't condone his actions.

Honestly, I think all of the holes in Delita's storylines would make a very nice "sequal" to the game. Or, more like, a new game, or even movie/story, at Delita's POV, using FFT's Chapter 1 as a prologue, and starting right after the batte where Teta was killed.

Yah that would be a great game. I would get it for sure!!

[Beoluve]

Sorry to bump a dead thread, but I think when Delita attacked Balmafula, he pulled out her larynx or something.

Her scream when he advanced on her is like a scream that is suddenly silenced. And she never "speaks" after that.

The only problem with this is

1.He did not have a weapon in hand so there is no way he could have ripped it out.

2. Even if she loved him she would have wounded him in self defence.

But I never would have thought about that. Good thinking!;)

[feioncastor]

The only problem with this is

1.He did not have a weapon in hand so there is no way he could have ripped it out.

2. Even if she loved him she would have wounded him in self defence.

But I never would have thought about that. Good thinking!;)
You may be right, but we (my friends and I) have always understood that this is what Delita did to her. Like, he did it to make sure that she didn't tell anyone about his intentions. Back in that time, literacy was a lot less common, so in order to narc him off, she'd need to speak, since she probably couldn't write.

You don't need a weapon to rip things. Your hand works quite well.

[Beoluve]

Yah your probably right now that I think about it.