Vincent's age in FFVII:AC?

[Nova Briar]

Hey, guys! Here's my question--I hope this is the right thread to put this in. I noticed in one AC character profile thing that Vincent's age was listed as 27...same as it was in the VII booklet. (Of course, this is undoubtedly how old he was when Hojo shot him and then experimented on him, and I can kind of see how one wouldn't count all those years spent doing nothing but sleeping in the basement of the Shinra mansion, but...)

Let me try to rephrase this. If he's still 27, two years later, and he evidently didn't age any while he was in the basement of the mansion--does he age at all? And if he doesn't actually age, does that mean he won't die by natural causes? (And if the answer to both of those questions is yes, than Hojo must've seriously messed his genome up...)

Just curious. Any thoughts, anyone? Or, more specifically, has anyone seen a webpage (preferably an official one) that has Vincent's correct age in FFVII:AC?

(I'm not an obsessed Vincent fangirl. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not... :riiight: I love Cloud and Sephy, too! (*hugs FFVII plushies* :love: )

Anyway. Ta!
Nova Briar

[Destai]

I've heard several suggestions that the J-cells in his body make him imortal assuming no one murders him by force. I dont honestly know. Maybe it just slows the aging process. But you're definitely right in saying all those years in the Shinra mansion didnt add to his age at all which now that I think about it, Yeah that probably proves hes immortal.

(29 in AC, 30 in DOC)

[Mirage]

Immortal or not, his age still increases. Even if this casserole right next to me is going to last forever, it's still one day older tomorrow.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Lucrecia is the one who can't die because of the Jenova cells in her. Vincent was experimented upon, but not with Jenova cells.

Considering his age given for AC is the same as his age given for FFVII, I'd say, yes, he apparently doesn't age.

[Mirage]

Well, I don't deny that he doesn't age biologically (or whatever the professional term for that is), but someones age is the current date minus their birthdate, so his age will increase no matter what. If his age in AC is the same as in the game, then I'll just say S-E messed up :P.

[Destai]

Lucrecia is the one who can't die because of the Jenova cells in her. Vincent was experimented upon, but not with Jenova cells.

Considering his age given for AC is the same as his age given for FFVII, I'd say, yes, he apparently doesn't age.No J-cells? Then what exactly is happening during his limit breaks?

[Cloud72789]

I don't know if Vincent has Jenova's cells in him or not.. I mean, it's possible that Hojo found some other way to make Vincent imortal. Anyways, Vincent will age but his body will not show any affects of time. Got that? Ummmm... I didn't pay much attention on how Hojo made Vincent.. so I can't say all that much about him. Well, if Vincent has Jenova's cells then he'll obviously have GeoStigma in AC. :(

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Well, I don't deny that he doesn't age biologically (or whatever the professional term for that is), but someones age is the current date minus their birthdate, so his age will increase no matter what. If his age in AC is the same as in the game, then I'll just say S-E messed up :P.Vincent's age is given as 27 in FFVII, yet he was placed in stasis 30 years prior to the game's setting. Technically, he should be 57 in FFVII and 59 in AC, but his age is still given as 27.

[Destai]

Are you sure he doesnt have J-cells in him?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Nowhere in the game does it say that Hojo used Jenova cells in his experiments on Vincent.
Vincent wasn't affected at all by the Jenova Reunion.

[Destai]

Vincent was optional wasnt he so maybe to still fuction as an optional character, well it would have been a hard task for Square. If its not Jenova then what is it?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

It could be anything. Hojo's a mad scientist. He wanted to breed a wolf-thing with a woman, for god's sake.

[amratis]

Mmm, Hojo was pretty screwed up. He could have done anything to Vincent really. But it does seem like he doesnt age very fast, possibly not atall.

[Nova Briar]

So...let me see if I have this straight--he's physically still 27 (presumably, or at least bloody close to it if he is slowly aging) but his actual age is 57 during VII. Is that it?

Also, if Vincent's transformations were due to J-cells, then wouldn't Cloud, Sephy and anyone else with J-cells undergo transformations under moments of extreme stress? (Although Sephiroth did have different forms during VII--case in point his imitation of Tifa, as well as his multiple forms during the last battles.) But still--Vincent's transformations seemed pretty involuntary (at least, you had to wait for them)--unlike Seph, who seemed to pretty much transform at will.

I'm guessing that Vincent's "unique talents" were due to something else besides J-cells. (What else? Who knows? Kawaii has a good point about Hojo.) Unless there was maybe some way that Hojo could modify the J-cells in Vincent's case, and the modifications resulted in the transformations...? :confused: I know we don't know much about AC yet, but it would help a lot if we knew if Vincent had Geostigma. He doesn't show signs of it in the trailers, the way Cloud does (ie, the holding-arm-and-wincing thing). Wish I could read Japanese--maybe the character profiles on the official AC site give away some clues?

Nova Briar

[amratis]

Vincent could have Geostigma and just not show it because he's really hard, unlike Cloud...wussy! Nah, only joking, Cloud isn't a wuss...well he doesnt look like one in AC at any rate. Vincent could have Geostigma, easily, remember we havent seen that much of him in the trailers, so he could have, it just hasnt been mentioned yet.

As for Cloud, Seph and Vincent undergoing transformations .etc. Well, arent the J-cells pretty unpredictable as to what they actually do? Its effects could simply differ from individual to individual. Hojo's experimentation on Vincent looks to be pretty slap-dash in the game. I mean isnt he lying on a desk??? Not surprising his limit break transformations were so screwed up looking, - he wasnt carefully planned like Seph, and to a lesser extent Cloud.

[Nova Briar]

Vincent could have Geostigma, easily, remember we havent seen that much of him in the trailers, so he could have, it just hasnt been mentioned yet.
A good point...the only two times you really see Vincent are (I'd better put this in spoiler tags just to be safe): when he's talking to Cloud in the Sleeping Forest and then in Midgar during Bahamut's attack. Now that I think of it, compared to Cloud, we've barely seen him at all. So I concede that you're right--the possibility that Vincent has Geostigma is still there.


As for Cloud, Seph and Vincent undergoing transformations .etc. Well, arent the J-cells pretty unpredictable as to what they actually do? Its effects could simply differ from individual to individual.
Another good point...I don't think that Hojo had even the faintest idea what J-cells could do. (Or even if he did, I don't... :confused: )

Also, Seph could conceivably have had a lot more "experience" with the J-cells, since he was born with them and actually found out about them at the Nibelheim incident, a full five years before Vincent left the Shinra mansion. I know Vincent also had J-cells for thirty years, but I don't think he was exactly exploring their capabilities while he was lying there in that coffin. If Sephiroth was "trying out" his Jenova cells, at least to some degree, during the five years between the Nibelheim incident and the main events of VII, I think it's possible he could've found some way to control his transformations more than Vincent's were. That still doesn't account for Cloud's lack of transformations, though...although he did have them for only a fraction of the time that Vincent and Sephiroth did. Maybe the Jenova DNA hadn't really infiltrated his genome yet?

Another interesting side note: If J-cells are the reason why Vincent didn't age (at least physically) beyond the age he recieved them (27), why didn't they "freeze" Sephy's physical development?

Nova Briar

[Destai]

The J cells were injected into each of them in different ways, werent they? Its often said Sephiroth is the child of Jenova and when you know how he was born its understandable, right? Wasnt whatever Hojo did to Vincent experimentary? Different methods, different effects?

[Shoden]

well Hojo used Mako and genetic materials of beasts on vincent.

what prrof do you have that that is Bahamut in Midgar? it has a ram's head for gods sake and it materialized out of a silver substance and it was evil

[Destai]

well Hojo used Mako and genetic materials of beasts on vincent.Where did you learn that?

[Shoden]

ok its obvious you see where else could Vincent have gotten the genetic signature to transform into those specific beasts but the mixture between the mako and cells fused the creatures into 4 specific ones, (just guessing) also after Vincent tried to stop Hojo from using Mako experiments on Lucrecia he got shot but he used Mako on Vincent and Jenova cells on Lucrecia, after the expeirmentation finished we dunno how long vincent was asleep for (not the sleep before meeting cloud) he was too late to save Lucrecia so he went to sleep. the mako was different as it was filled with all sorts of things.
also i was told this from a friend who was reaaly interested in FF7 and Vincent was his fav char im not saying everything he said im making some things up that sound logical enough to be true

[Destai]

So its a theory, Yeah thought so.

[Shoden]

its part theory though if you remember correctly Vincent confronted Hojo to stop him usin Lucrecia as an experiment for Mako then he got shot in the head and he was experimented on instead but the theory part is what happened with the experiments and what they were

[Nova Briar]

what prrof do you have that that is Bahamut in Midgar? it has a ram's head for gods sake and it materialized out of a silver substance and it was evil
Whoo...take it easy. :whaaa: First of all, Bahamut could concievably be "evil", because Summons are supposed to serve whoever holds their shiny red materia. The monster just serves the master's ends. But anyway, I called it Bahamut b/c that's what it was termed in the Special Report in Daeya.org. The people who wrote the report were lucky enough to actually see footage of AC, instead of just peering at screenshots like most of us (myself included), so I assumed they knew what they were talking about. There's been no official statement on what monster it was, so I really have no clue what it is. It's quite possible it's not Bahamut. Don't hit me. :erm:

ok its obvious you see where else could Vincent have gotten the genetic signature to transform into those specific beasts but the mixture between the mako and cells fused the creatures into 4 specific ones
The only transformation which I really thought looked like it was a "beast" was Vincent's first transformation, Galian Beast (sp?). The others seemed mainly humanoid to me...okay, with the exception of the wings on his fourth transformation (Chaos, I think). Maybe the green skin on the second one (you know, the one that looked like Frankenstein?) But nothing that was really beast-like, in my opinion, on anything but the first. As for where the genetic material for the transformations came from--who knows? As mentioned before, Hojo was a mad bishy. He likely wouldn't have had a problem getting a DNA sample from some gum he found on the bottom of one of his shoes. ;)

Wasnt whatever Hojo did to Vincent experimentary? Different methods, different effects?
Very true. *bows* I stand corrected! ;)

[Shoden]

watch the trailers the thingy has a ram head and bird wings either its bahamut or some genetic mutated distorted cross between a dragon and a sheep lol.

well Beats/Monsters/Humanoids whatever you know what i meant

[V. Valentine]

when hojo altered vincent he wanted to make him suffer, so he not only gave him the awesome evil power within him, but also stopped his aging process so that he would have to live forever with the fact that his love -lucrecia- belonged to hojo.
so reaguardless of anything, vincent will ALWAYS be 27 untill someone kills him......hah.......as if that could happen :D
p.s This is my first post, so, HI EVERYONE ^_^

[Destai]

*27
Maybe DOC will fix that one way or another.

[Shoden]

Hojo was nothing compared to Ghast according to Sephiroth so there must be someway to fix Vincent's curse.

(off topic sorry)
at the end of disc 2 when you fight Hojo why does he tell cloud maybe he'll be cut out to be scientist?

[Nova Briar]

Good point, V. Valentine. I hadn't ever considered the possibility that Hojo might have wanted Vincent to live forever...I just thought that perhaps it was a side-effect, or something. Poor Vincent... (He can have me anyday :love: ;) )

I do hope DOC addresses Vincent's "unique" abilities, even if it doesn't ultimately end in a cure. To overlook them entirely would be a HUGE oversight on the part of Squeenix.

And as for why Hojo said that to Cloud...who knows why he does anything he does? *shrug* I wasn't able to make sense of him for most of the game.

Nova Briar
Edit:Welcome to the forums, V. Valentine, from one newbie (and Vincent fan) to another. :)

[Shoden]

Hojo is an insane lunatic Cloud and Vincent got they're revenge
Cloud: Hojo claimed him as a failed Sephiroth clone and maybe responsible for the Mako and Jenova cells within him

Vincent: used Lucrecia and shot him in the head, then experimented on him making him cursed and having to live with it forever

[Destai]

I forgot again... Welcome V Valentine! :)

[amratis]

Right, about Vincent's age. I just watched one of the trailers *again*. :D And when Vincent is talking to Cloud, whilst Cloud is sitting on the ground, Vincent says "There is a thing like the Lifestream that flows in our bodies...wicked substance that has infected us"... *Our* and *us* Of course he could just be generalizing, maybe he means all the ppl in Midgar .etc or humanity as a whole, but I think maybe he just means, him and Cloud when he says "our" and "us" If he is doing that, then...well it would seem he does have Geostigma. Cant believe I didnt notice that point before ;) :D
And welcome to the forums V.Valentine.

EDIT- That creature in Midgar sure does look abit Bahamutty...(that word doesnt look right, lol :D ) With the wings and everything, he looks very similar to the Bahamut in FFX

amra

[Shoden]

but the head wasnt Dragonic at all it was a rams head and it looked undead to me freaky
unless its Bahamuts evil clone

[Destai]

Not everything you cant explain is a clone...
Geostigma, Geological,geographical (something to do with the earth)-something? Does anyone agree with that? I think I get the Geo part if Im right but whats the stigma?

[amratis]

but the head wasnt Dragonic at all it was a rams head and it looked undead to me freaky
unless its Bahamuts evil clone

It could be you know, after all, the SHM *are* the bad guys, anything they summon could be inherently evil.

[Destai]

The summons in the FF games have never really been grounded by faq. If that was so theyd probably look the exact same in every version.

[Nova Briar]

And when Vincent is talking to Cloud, whilst Cloud is sitting on the ground, Vincent says "There is a thing like the Lifestream that flows in our bodies...wicked substance that has infected us"... *Our* and *us* Of course he could just be generalizing, maybe he means all the ppl in Midgar .etc or humanity as a whole, but I think maybe he just means, him and Cloud when he says "our" and "us" If he is doing that, then...well it would seem he does have Geostigma. Cant believe I didnt notice that point before
You make a good point...poor Vincent and Cloud! *hugs Vincent and Cloud plushies* Whatever Geo-stigma is, I'm sure it must suck. You know, I had never noticed that in the trailers before? So if Vincent does have Geo-stigma, it's likely he has J-cells, and vice versa. I understand now. Thanks all for helping me clear that up! :D

Destai, I have no idea why Geo-stigma is called "stigma"...check the Geo-stigma thread for a little tidbit, though.

As for the whole Bahamut thing...*sighs* Should we make a thread to debate this, you think?

Nova Briar

[amratis]

If we're going to discuss it in any detail then that'd probably be a good idea. :D

amra

[dragoons]

Correct me if I am wrong. But I thought Vincent was a half demon


If I'm wrong it's because I read too many fanfictions.

Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.

[Destai]

He was human until he tried to stop Hojo from interfering and experimentiong on Sephiroths mother and Sephiroth. Hojo shot him down and did unknown experiments on him making him...well, him

[Legendary Caladbolg]

and when you fight hojo doesn't he transform into something?

[Destai]

Hojo does. Vincent can transform but only if he reaches a limit break like every other battle.

[Heartless Shadow]

Vincent In Final Fantasy VII

Name: Vincent Valentine
Age: 27
Height: 184 cm
Birthdate: October 13

Advent child set 2 years after the events of Final Fantasy VII

Name: Vincent Valentine
Age: 27
Height: 184 cm
Birthdate: October 13

Dirge of cerberus set 3 years after the events of Final Fantasy VII

Name: Vincent Valentine
Age: 27
Height: 184 cm
Birthdate: October 13

look simler?

[Destai]

And is that official from Square or did you just come up with that yourself?

[Heartless Shadow]

its taken from the ff7 manual , www.ff7-2.com and www.ff7dc.net.
why would i make it up?

[Destai]

If you thought you were right and werent bothered to consider other possibilities you'd make it up.
It doesnt give his age in DOC site and neither of these sites are official.

[Heartless Shadow]

oh well sorry i was only saying

[Destai]

You didnt do anything to apologise for and I appreaciate people giving there opinions. Im sorry if I came off the wrong way.

[amratis]

(squishy hug) Okay that was just random, sorry.

Vincent I think ages, technically speaking, but there are no physical signs of aging on him.

[Destai]

As far as I see it, He doesnt age physically but I did think years would be added on anyway but if that was true then wouldnt square have added years on during the time he spent asleep making him about 57?

[amratis]

I think they would acknowledge that, but I think maybe they dont see the point in saying he's *actually* 57 when he doesnt look anything like it? Maybe it makes him less cool :D

[Destai]

But if they do that they probably wont acknoledge him as 29 or 30 in AC or DOC.

[amratis]

Probably not no. He makes a better tragic hero if he doesnt age. Well, hes ages mentally, but not physically.

[sayen]

have you lot been to the offical website on square-enix.co.jp? casue it says there that vincent is

age 27
blood type a
birth date october 13

and i rember it says the same thing in the guide.

[amratis]

Yes we have seen all this, somone posted it earlier, or in a different thread on this Forum somewhere. Yes we know how old he is we're just debating WHY doesnt he age really, or does he age mentally or blah blah blah. :D

[cloud20747]

Hey Hojo's a celg vilgan (Al bhed) . But a evil genius, so making Vincent immortal would just add to his agony. Now that's torture.

[Luthien Rogue]

Immortal or not, his age still increases. Even if this casserole right next to me is going to last forever, it's still one day older tomorrow.

But he does not age physically. Vinny would be in his 50's now, but you'd never be able to tell by his appearance.


I've heard several suggestions that the J-cells in his body make him imortal assuming no one murders him by force. I dont honestly know. Maybe it just slows the aging process. But you're definitely right in saying all those years in the Shinra mansion didnt add to his age at all which now that I think about it, Yeah that probably proves hes immortal.

Vincent does not have J-cells inside of him. He was not affected by the Reunion at all.

[Destai]

Hes a hidden character and wasnt a part of the official story. You couldnt expect Square back in 1997 to make all those different scenarios so its not known wether he was effected and besides, assuming you woke him up he was present at the reunion.

[Luthien Rogue]

Hes a hidden character and wasnt a part of the official story. You couldnt expect Square back in 1997 to make all those different scenarios so its not known wether he was effected and besides, assuming you woke him up he was present at the reunion.

But he was never being SUMMONED to the reunion. The entire Party was present at the reunion, does that mean they all have J-Cells in them? No, it means they made the CHOICE to be there. Cloud was affected by J-Cells, so we know what happens to people who are being affected by them. We never saw any of those things (you know, being controled and almost killing someone you love, twice... having little fits... being summoned to the reunion... etc) in Vincent.

And Vincent may have been a hidden character, but he still has a large part in the story.

He was in love with the woman who gave birth to Sephiroth; he was shot and experimented on the the father of Sephiroth; He tells us the truth about Sephiroth's past. etc...

And what's your point anyway? What do you mean by "all those different scenarios"? What different scenarios? :confused:

[Destai]

Cloud chose to go there also, He was following Sephiroth there. If he had not follwed him there he may well have been summoned there. Vincent was at the reunion with the rest of the party, does that mean vincent doesnt have Jenova celss in him? no it means like Cloud they chose to be there but had cloud not followed sephiroth there he may well have been summoned and forced there by the j-cells in him. And like I said. Vincent was a hidden character so you couldnt expect them to put all those details in him because that would effect the story and hes only an optional character. If they did show them parts of the game would have worked differently as in different scenarios. And although his past was connected to large characters in the story Vincent himself never had any real effect on the story. He was just there to fight and do the same as the rest of the party.

[Luthien Rogue]

Cloud chose to go there also, He was following Sephiroth there. If he had not follwed him there he may well have been summoned there.

Ahem... *clears throat* Actually...


Cloud:
"I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth."

(Cloud shakes his head.)

"I was being summoned by Sephiroth."

Cloud was being summoned by him.


Vincent was at the reunion with the rest of the party, does that mean vincent doesnt have Jenova celss in him? no it means like Cloud they chose to be there but had cloud not followed sephiroth there he may well have been summoned and forced there by the j-cells in him.

*points up ^ * So Cloud, the one Party member who does have J-Cells within himself; who is a Sephiroth Clone, was being summoned to the Reunion. The rest of the team was not being summoned; they chose to be there. Those people did not have J-Cells inside of them.


And like I said. Vincent was a hidden character so you couldnt expect them to put all those details in him because that would effect the story and hes only an optional character.

Whether they wanted Vincent to have J-Cells inside of him or not would not affect the story in any way. If he did have J-Cells inside of him -- which he doesn't -- it would not have been crucial to the story of FFVII.


If they did show them parts of the game would have worked differently as in different scenarios.

Ok, so go ahead and give me an example.


And although his past was connected to large characters in the story Vincent himself never had any real effect on the story. He was just there to fight and do the same as the rest of the party.

Yes, but, you must GET Vincent in order to reveal important parts of the story. Without him, many things would go unanswered. He was important to the plot for that reason. And now, knowing that he has his own game coming out, I think it's fair to assume he is in fact a very important character.

:D

[Destai]

Cloud was being summoned by him.Cloud also thought he was created 6 years ago.He was wrong. Being summoned there and following Seph there were the same thing. Theres no difference. Seph called him there as Cloud was following there.
*points up ^ * So Cloud, the one Party member who does have J-Cells within himself; who is a Sephiroth Clone, was being summoned to the Reunion. The rest of the team was not being summoned; they chose to be there. Those people did not have J-Cells inside of them.That didnt make much sense to me. Vincent was at the reunion so why wouldnt he have J-cells? He went there by the same methods of Cloud, following Sephiroth.
Whether they wanted Vincent to have J-Cells inside of him or not would not affect the story in any way. If he did have J-Cells inside of him -- which he doesn't -- it would not have been crucial to the story of FFVII.Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells? Oh by the way. You're not Square and you dont know so save the statements.
Ok, so go ahead and give me an example. Having two extra people in the game made no difference to it at all. All the other characters had some story that had to be done in order for the game to progress. Thats pretty underdeveloped.
Yes, butthank you. The only important plots were connected to how Seph was born really and wasnt that a part of Hojos explanation at the Mako cannon?

[Luthien Rogue]

Cloud also thought he was created 6 years ago.He was wrong.

This was before Cloud "finds himself" in the Lifestream with Tifa. At that point Cloud had realized the truth.


Being summoned there and following Seph there were the same thing. Theres no difference. Seph called him there as Cloud was following there.

No, Cloud makes it clear that he wasn't following Sephy -- "I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth." He was being summoned by him -- "I was being summoned by Sephiroth."

"Wasn't" meaning he was not following Sephy, and "summoned" meaning being commanded by Sephiroth to go to the North Crater.


That didnt make much sense to me.

No comment.


Vincent was at the reunion so why wouldnt he have J-cells? He went there by the same methods of Cloud, following Sephiroth.

Cloud did not follow Sephiroth, he was summoned there by Sephiroth. The game tells us this. Vincent went there by choice, as did the other main characters. Also, if you choose not to get Vinny in your Party, you may have noticed that Vincent does not show up at the Reunion. Hmm...

You have not provided one piece of evidence to support your theory that Vincent has J-Cells within him. Could you please do so?


Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells?

Um, no... O_o


Oh by the way. You're not Square and you dont know so save the statements.

No, I'm not Squaresoft, but I have played the game and happened to pay attention. *bows*


Having two extra people in the game made no difference to it at all. All the other characters had some story that had to be done in order for the game to progress. Thats pretty underdeveloped.

First, we're not talking about Yuffie, we're talking about Vincent. And having Vincent in the Party tells us who Sephiroth's mother is. And if you go and talk to Lucretia, you will see that Vincent actually has a very developed history. You can read it here: http://members.fortunecity.com/sephkatana/ff7stuff/ff7disc2.txt


thank you.

You're not welcome.


The only important plots were connected to how Seph was born really and wasnt that a part of Hojos explanation at the Mako cannon?

Hojo tells us that he is the father of Sephiroth. But you have to talk to Lucretia, which requires getting Vinny, in order to learn who his mother is.

Again, please provide some evidence to support your theory. If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?

[Destai]

I already explained why he it doesnt matter if hes being summoned there. You just repeated yourself ,something I really dont feel like doing because your ignoring my points. I also already explained Vincent went there the same way Cloud did. Vincent didnt show up at the reunion because he was an optional character. You also asked why the scenario would change. Theres your example staring you in the face. Thanks for answering your own question. What you said made it possible that he could have J-cells. Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts.
You have not provided one piece of evidence to support your theory that Vincent has J-Cells within him. Could you please do so?I could say the same about you, couldnt I?:rolleyes2 Ive certainly explained why he could have cells.
No, I'm not Squaresoft, but I have played the game and happened to pay attention. *bows*You couldve fooled me. Most of what you said is truth with your own theories added in.
First, we're not talking about Yuffie, we're talking about Vincent.Like I said, Reading between the lines. Optional characters people.
And having Vincent in the Party tells us who Sephiroth's mother is. And if you go and talk to Lucretia, you will see that Vincent actually has a very developed history.Wrong story. It hadnt any effect on FFVII storyline and didnt answer any questions that wouldnt already be answered regarding the main story. Just a piece of extra infromation. Ive already seen Lucrecias scene.
You're not welcome. :cry:
Hojo tells us that he is the father of Sephiroth. But you have to talk to Lucretia, which requires getting Vinny, in order to learn who his mother is.I explained that in the last post Lucrecia had no effect on the story.
If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? I already tole you. Because hes optional and besides. he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.
Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.
Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?He was there if you used him and he was not a part of the story if you didnt. Again thats your different scenario.Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?
Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?Vincents not a Sephiroth clone. Sephiroth was a phoetus when Vincent was experimented with. They didnt have any reason to put tattos on people back then. Are you sure you payed attention during the game because unless you're pulling questions out of your ass... :confused:

[Luthien Rogue]

I already explained why he it doesnt matter if hes being summoned there. You just repeated yourself ,something I really dont feel like doing because your ignoring my points.

I repeated myself because my point still stands.


I also already explained Vincent went there the same way Cloud did.
Vincent didnt show up at the reunion because he was an optional character.

Well, that would mean Square really fudged up the story, wouldn't it? Square put a lot of thought, money, and effort into FF7, and everything was carefully planned. I really doubt that they were just too lazy to add that in...


You also asked why the scenario would change. Theres your example staring you in the face. Thanks for answering your own question.

Could you be a little more straightforward? This is getting annoying... "Something you said in your last five responses is the answer to your question." Why don't you answer the question yourself? Or at least tell me what you're talking about...


What you said made it possible that he could have J-cells.Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts.

What the heck are you talking about? Instead of saying "Try reading between the lines because I really dont want to wade through longer and longer posts" why didn't you use that space to explain what you were talking about? :rolleyes2


I could say the same about you, couldnt I?

Not really... try reading an entire post before responding:

"If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?"


Ive certainly explained why he could have cells.

"He's an optional character so Square just didn't bother mentioning a crucial aspect of his story"? O_o I'm sorry, but that is not "proof".


You couldve fooled me. Most of what you said is truth with your own theories added in.

Theories? Where? All I see are facts. However, you have used no facts at all, and have only provided your theories.


Like I said, Reading between the lines. Optional characters people.

So WHAT if he's an optional character? Let's say he does have J-Cells in him. However, someone doesn't bother getting Vinny when they play the game... will that screw up the story? No. So why would Square just "not bother" mentioning that Vinny has J-Cells inside of him if he did? They show the experiments happening... but never mention J-Cells...


Wrong story. It hadnt any effect on FFVII storyline and didnt answer any questions that wouldnt already be answered regarding the main story. Just a piece of extra infromation. Ive already seen Lucrecias scene.

Ask some people who never got Vinny who Sephy's mother is, and I assure you that someone will say "Jenova". Getting Vincent and talking to Lucretia is a very important part of the story.


I already tole you. Because hes optional and besides.

And again, why does that matter? He's an optional character so they leave out the part about him being injected with J-Cells, but they decide to tell us that Vinny like Lucrecia? That's interesting... telling us something that really doesn't matter, while leaving out an important piece of info...


he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.

1. No other Sephy Clones turn into monsters. Cloud, the Clones etc...
2. Jenova is a shape-shifter, meaning she has CONTROL over her appearance. Vincent does not.


You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.

Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him. Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention... :D


He was there if you used him and he was not a part of the story if you didnt. Again thats your different scenario.Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion?

...Because he doesn't have J-Cells inside of him... O__o That would be my point... o____O I guess you can't explain this, then?


Vincents not a Sephiroth clone. Sephiroth was a phoetus when Vincent was experimented with. They didnt have any reason to put tattos on people back then. Are you sure you payed attention during the game because unless you're pulling questions out of your ass...

Do you not remember Vincent found out Hojo was experimenting on the baby, and he was shot because he was trying to stop it? THEN he was experimented on. And "Sephiroth Clone" are injected with J-Cells. Therefore, if you're right, Vinny would be a Sephy Clone... but you're wrong, so. :D

[Destai]

LR: If he did have J-Cells inside of him -- which he doesn't --* it would not have been crucial to the story of FFVII.*
D: Doesnt that add to the possibility of him having J-cells?
LR:Um, no... O oIts possible that he could have J-cells and wouldnt change anything. So its possible he could have them? No. (doesnt make sense...)
I repeated myself because my point still stands. Look at it this way. Being summoned and following there were both right. I never said you're point didnt stand so theres no need to repeat yourself. Jesus..

Well, that would mean Square really fudged up the story, wouldn't it? Square put a lot of thought, money, and effort into FF7, and everything was carefully planned. I really doubt that they were just too lazy to add that in... You already said he could have cells and it wouldnt effect the story. If they did put it in it would effect the story. He was optional so for the sake of it they left him out. Quit bitching they're making up for it with a new game :rolleyes2
If they had left that in it would have changed the scenario.

"If Vincent had J-Cells within him, why did we not see any signs of this? Why was he never being controlled by Sephy? Why did he not have psychotic little fits like Cloud? Why was he not being summoned to the Reunion? Why did he not recieve a tattoo like all the other clones?"J-cells have several different effects on people. Theres not one effect for it. Turning into a monster could easily be one of those signs, different effects and the jenovas you fought throuout the game were all monsters. Sephiroth also mutated himself. He wasnt being controlled by Seph because hes not the main character, duh :rolleyes2 Pulling questions out of your ass comes to mind. If you used him he was at the reunion and if you didnt he was asleep. Theres a reunion in AC which Kadaj and co. host. They werent at the original reunion. I explained why he had no fits. He wasnt made as a clone. Answer this. Why would hojo give him a tatoo? It doesnt make sense.
So WHAT if he's an optional character? Let's say he does have J-Cells in him. However, someone doesn't bother getting Vinny when they play the game... will that screw up the story?You already said if he ahd J-cells it wouldnt effect the story.
Ask some people who never got Vinny who Sephy's mother is, and I assure you that someone will say "Jenova". Getting Vincent and talking to Lucretia is a very important part of the story.That didnt effect the story. Hojo explained he injected cells into the womb at the Mako cannon.
And again, why does that matter? He's an optional character so they leave out the part about him being injected with J-Cells, but they decide to tell us that Vinny like Lucrecia? That's interesting... telling us something that really doesn't matter, while leaving out an important piece of info...I always thought it obvious. Maybe it raised too much questionabout why he wasnt at the reunion and theyd have been forced to change the story...nah.
Jenova is a shape-shifter, meaning she has CONTROL over her appearance. Vincent does not.Yeah Cloud made great use of that feature. hes really a weady little man called Norbert.
Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.No he didnt. The only fit really was when he was at the crater. He came up with theories like being created five or so years ago because he didnt know his past and lost it when he couldnt remember. duh....
Because he doesn't have J-Cells inside of him... O o That would be my point... o O I guess you can't explain this, thenThat wasnt meant to be part of my post. It was your question while i was making the post. I answered ALOT. Ive also answered in this post.
Do you not remember Vincent found out Hojo was experimenting on the baby, and he was shot because he was trying to stop it? THEN he was experimented on. And "Sephiroth Clone" are injected with J-Cells. Therefore, if you're right, Vinny would be a Sephy Clone... The tatoos were for people who were made to be intentionally like seph so Vin wasnt regarded as a clone. They didnt start making clones till they saw seph was succesful. Thats pretty obvious. But you are after all, an idiot.

[Luthien Rogue]

Its possible that he could have J-cells and wouldnt change anything. So its possible he could have them? No. (doesnt make sense...)

No, no, no. I mean it wouldn't affect the story in any way, however, it would affect Vincent.. O_o He would be showing signs of having been injected with J-Cells.


Look at it this way. Being summoned and following there were both right. I never said you're point didnt stand so theres no need to repeat yourself. Jesus..

But Cloud says he wasn't following him...


You already said he could have cells and it wouldnt effect the story. If they did put it in it would effect the story. He was optional so for the sake of it they left him out. Quit bitching they're making up for it with a new game
If they had left that in it would have changed the scenario.

It wouldn't affect the main plot. It would however affect Vincent, since people with J-Cells in them show signs of having been injected. I also never said they're "making up for it with a new game." I said if he wasn't an important character, why is he getting an entire game dedicated to his past?


J-cells have several different effects on people. Theres not one effect for it. Turning into a monster could easily be one of those signs, different effects and the jenovas you fought throuout the game were all monsters.

We know there are certain effects:

1. Nothing at all.
2. Having psychotic little fits like Cloud.
3. Muttering "Sephiroth" and "Reunion."

Schtuff like that. And again, Jenova had control over the form she takes, Vinny doesn't.


Sephiroth also mutated himself.

Note Jenova above his head. Jenova was part of him. Many believe, as I do, that Jenova and Sephy became one while in the Lifestream. (another debate...) It wasn't Sephy, it was Jenova.


He wasnt being controlled by Seph because hes not the main character, duh

Yet a ton of NPCs were being controlled/summoned by Sephiroth... every Clone... O_o Interesting...


Pulling questions out of your ass comes to mind.

Pulling answers out of yours comes to mind. O_o


If you used him he was at the reunion and if you didnt he was asleep.

As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?


Theres a reunion in AC which Kadaj and co. host. They werent at the original reunion.

We have to know more about the origins of the SHM before we can talk about that... for all we know, they were just recently created.


I explained why he had no fits. He wasnt made as a clone.

So?


Answer this. Why would hojo give him a tatoo? It doesnt make sense.

I'm searching for a quote right now, I'll respond when I find it.


That didnt effect the story. Hojo explained he injected cells into the womb at the Mako cannon.

Into the womb ooooof.... who? He doesn't say. Most people still believe Jenova is the mother.


Yeah Cloud made great use of that feature. hes really a weady little man called Norbert.

...The hell?


No he didnt. The only fit really was when he was at the crater. He came up with theories like being created five or so years ago because he didnt know his past and lost it when he couldnt remember. duh....

He was having fits since the beginning of the game... Since he went to the first Reactor. And you ignored my example:

"Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention... "

:rolleyes2 :love:

[Destai]

But Cloud says he wasn't following him... Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

It wouldn't affect the main plot. It would however affect Vincent, since people with J-Cells in them show signs of having been injected. Like turning into monsters similar tp the monsters in Nibelheim. Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

We know there are certain effects:
1. Nothing at all.
2. Having psychotic little fits like Cloud.
3. Muttering "Sephiroth" and "Reunion."
Schtuff like that. And again, Jenova had control over the form she takes, Vinny doesn't. 1. what?, 2.Again I explained the fits, 3. That was only the Sephiroth clones which vincent isnt necessarily even if he does have Jenova cells in him. What experiment was odne to Vincent was more than likely different than normal cloning procedure and was Hojo fucking around, plus if he was muttering Sephiroth and reunion and in the same physical state as the other clones then he wouldnt have been suitable to join the party or remotely conscious which Cloud was for most of the game until Seph and Jenova attacked his mind. Since Vincent was asleep perhaps there wasnt any need for his mind to be broken like other clones?
Note Jenova above his head. Jenova was part of him. Many believe, as I do, that Jenova and Sephy became one while in the Lifestream. (another debate...) It wasn't Sephy, it was Jenova.Several people from the reactor in Nibelheim also mutated.
Yet a ton of NPCs were being controlled/summoned by Sephiroth... every Clone... O o Interesting...Yeah so? Doesnt need to be all of them. If Vincent was one of those flunkies then he wouldn have been a suitbable party member.

Pulling answers out of yours comes to mind. O oBet it took you ages to come up with that.
As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?He didnt show up as a non player character because Square werent bothered and didnt think it necessary. Maybe he died on the way? Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.
We have to know more about the origins of the SHM before we can talk about that... for all we know, they were just recently created.They definitely have Jenova cells and host the second reunion. Saying that all J-cells will be reubited is very literal and could easily have been words used to summarize the event. To be fair if every piece of dialogue is taken literally you have a pretty different game.
So?You asked, I answered.
Into the womb ooooof.... who? He doesn't say. Most people still believe Jenova is the mother.That doesnt matter since it doesnt effect the storyline. Its just an extra non essential piece of information.

...The hell?The way you said it would suggest every person with J-cells could change form. Cloud didnt change form.
Example: When Sephy was trying to get Cloud to kill Aeris at the Forgotten Capital, Cloud has a little "fit". Makes me wonder if you really payed attention... That wasnt much of a fit. Seph/Jenova manipulated his mind but he broke free and said "what are you making me do?" That was mind control from a powerful influence. That wasnt a fit. The reactor struck me as more of a flashback from his forgitten past. Cloud couldnt remember his past and had fits when he began to believe everything Hojo suggested. He couldnt remember and when he began to believe he was a clone he had a breakdown. The breakdown at the temlple of the ancients was out of more mind control from the J-cells in him and shock from giving the B-materia.

[Luthien Rogue]

Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

The scene you're talking about is where Hojo fires the Cannon. The scene where Cloud realizes his true past is when he is in the Lifestream with Tifa. Let's take a look at the order those scenes appear:

Lifestream with Tifa:


Scene 113: Enter Cloud's Mind - Nibelheim, Long Ago
Scene 114: That Childhood Promise...
Scene 115: Jealousy - In My Room
Scene 116: On the Other Side of the Mountain
Scene 117: The Truth - You Were Watching Me - A Battle of Will
Scene 118: Return to the Others
Scene 119: Awakening

Cannon:


Scene 129: Green - Junon Cannon Relocated
Scene 130: Sister Ray
Scene 131: Weapon Surfaces - Value of a Life - Epic Battle
Scene 132: Fire - Weapon Falls - Paths Opened - President's
Redemption
Scene 133: Imminent Explosion - Hojo Schemes - Midgar Bound


If you play that scene again, or read a script, you will see that Cloud knows the truth about his past at that point. And either way... Cloud had his memories mixed up, as a result of the experiments and him wanting to be good enough for his friends and family. He wasn't stupid, though. He would know whether or not he was being summoned by Sephiroth. Why wouldn't he?


Like turning into monsters similar tp the monsters in Nibelheim.

Those monsters didn't turn back into humans, though, unlike Vincent.


Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

No he doesn't. 1. It's a Limit Break, he can't transform whenever he feels like it. 2. He can't change back whenever he feels like it.



We know there are certain effects:
1. Nothing at all.
1. what?,

Some people, like Zack, had no reaction at all to J-Cells.


Since Vincent was asleep perhaps there wasnt any need for his mind to be broken like other clones?

O_o


Several people from the reactor in Nibelheim also mutated.

Not by their own will, though, as you're suggesting. O_o That's a permanent state they are now in as a result of the experiments.


Yeah so? Doesnt need to be all of them.

Doesn't need to be all of them? What? :\


If Vincent was one of those flunkies then he wouldn have been a suitbable party member.

But you said... o.o You said "He wasn't being controlled because he wasn't a main character, duh." Well wtf does that have to do with anything? :|


He didnt show up as a non player character because Square werent bothered and didnt think it necessary.

If your theory is true, that he has J-Cells in him, then that screws up the entire Reunion theory... Square wouldn't do that. :|


Maybe he died on the way?

Then how is it that he has his own game coming out, and is in AC?


Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.

Then once again he would be going there by his own free will.


They definitely have Jenova cells and host the second reunion. Saying that all J-cells will be reubited is very literal and could easily have been words used to summarize the event. To be fair if every piece of dialogue is taken literally you have a pretty different game.

UGH... you were making a point... that the SHM weren't at the Reunion years ago so why would Vincent HAVE to be? I'm saying for all we know the SHM were created after the original Reunion, we don't know for sure. Until we do, you can't use that as your arguement.


The way you said it would suggest every person with J-cells could change form. Cloud didnt change form.

Um... no. You suggested that his ability was the same as Jenova's:


he turns into a monster like the other jenovas.

I'm saying it's not the same. Jenova has control over it, Vincent does not.


That wasnt much of a fit. Seph/Jenova manipulated his mind but he broke free and said "what are you making me do?" That was mind control from a powerful influence. That wasnt a fit.

Perhaps you missed the part where he started shaking like crazy?


The breakdown at the temlple of the ancients was out of more mind control from the J-cells in him and shock from giving the B-materia.

You really don't listen, do you? You're the one who said this:


You see this maked me wonder wether you really payed attention. Cloud had those fits because he thought he was a clone. (*cough*between the lines*cough*)Vincent already knew his past.

I said it was because of this:

Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.

Now you're changing your story? Well, at least that proves I'm right about that. :rolleyes2

[Destai]

You're reading my posts wrong and my story hasnt chnaged. Quit being childish. When he said that I was reffering ot the northern crater.
No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily. When I said control I meant being able to change back.
It doesnt need to be all of the clones.
I said he wasnt "the" main character as in Cloud so Seph or Jenova never controlled him.
The whole reunion theory is only screwed if you take the term all of jenovas cells reuniting literally which I already explained I dont.
Use common sense. He was obviously a member of the party in FFVII if he was in AC and DOC. I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.
Then once again he would be going there by his own free will.what?
what do you mean by created? They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion. How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?
Perhaps you missed the part where he started shaking like crazy?He pulls out his sword, prepares to hit her and stops. She then dies. Then he shakes like crazy.
Im aware of what I said and the main fits Im referring to are in thenorthern crater during the reunion. That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him. He couldnt understand why he just gave the materia to him. Theres a difference.
You read my posts wrong as I read your posts wrong. My story hasnt changed.

[Luthien Rogue]

Quit being childish.

Hey! No, you quit being childish! http://img72.exs.cx/img72/7321/gayfight4gr.gif


No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily.

Oh, do they? I had no idea. Do you work for Squaresoft?


It doesnt need to be all of the clones.

What? :|


I said he wasnt "the" main character as in Cloud so Seph or Jenova never controlled him.

Yet they controlled Non-playable Characters... If you're saying Vinny isn't as important, therefore Sephy/Jenova never controlled him, then how do you explain them controlling NPCs?


The whole reunion theory is only screwed if you take the term all of jenovas cells reuniting literally which I already explained I dont.

So how do you take it? How do you decide what parts of the game you take literally and which parts you don't?


Use common sense.

O_o Your sense is not common. o_O


I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.

He wasn't able to wake up? O_o


what?

...If you were to get Vinny after the Crater, he'd still be going to the Reunion by his own free will.


what do you mean by created?

Created the same way the Sephiroth Clones were created. :|


They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion.

Prove that? O_o


How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?

By taking teh Jenova Cells and injecting them into teh people? :rolleyes2


That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him.

You just said it was from them controlling him...


Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/5803/potatowned7fh.gif

[Destai]

Oh, do they? I had no idea. Do you work for Squaresoft?Took you long enough
It doesnt need to be all of the clones.I was responding to your post.
So how do you take it? How do you decide what parts of the game you take literally and which parts you don't?The word "All" is used often and isnt always literal. Thats pretty common.
He wasn't able to wake up? O oHe wasnt *woken up.
Created the same way the Sephiroth Clones were created. How do you define that?
Prove that? O oTheyre older than two.
By taking teh Jenova Cells and injecting them into teh people? Hojo was dead :rolleyes2
You just said it was from them controlling him... you misread.
and whats potatowned?

[Luthien Rogue]

Took you long enough

Yeh... >.> *roffles her @$$ off*



He wasn't able to wake up? O_o
He wasnt *woken up.

Okay, people, this is what it looks like when someone "corrects" your already correct spelling. You think I should've said, "He wasn't able to woken up?" :confused: That's... strange. O_o


How do you define that?

I thought you've played the game.....?


Theyre older than two.

Who's "they" and what two things are they older than? O_o


Hojo was dead

Hojo's the only one capable of injecting J-Cells into someone and showering them with Mako? I doubt that...



You just said it was from them controlling him...
you misread.

Before:

"That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him."

After:

"Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him."

First you said the fit was from when Sephy/Jenova tried to control Cloud's mind, then you say it's not from that, but from shock.

[Destai]

Okay, people, this is what it looks like when someone "corrects" your already correct spelling. You think I should've said, "He wasn't able to woken up?" That's... strange. O oI have to hand it to you for managing to come up with that :confused: Cloud hadnt woken him up.
I thought you've played the game.....?Several people misunderstood what a clone was. Well?
Who's "they" and what two things are they older than? O oYou really are slow and seriously over using smilies. The WHM are older than two years old. See how that works?

Hojo's the only one capable of injecting J-Cells into someone and showering them with Mako? I doubt that...Hes the only mad scientist I can think of who experimented with J-cells.
Before:

"That fit was from shock . Not from Seph or Jenova who controlled him."

After:

"Cloud had fits whenever Sephy/Jenova entered his mind, trying to control him."

First you said the fit was from when Sephy/Jenova tried to control Cloud's mind, then you say it's not from that, but from shock.At the ancients temple Cloud was shocked because he didnt understand what had just happened. The other fits I can think of were different.

[Luthien Rogue]

I have to hand it to you for managing to come up with that Cloud hadnt woken him up.

Ok... I said "He wasn't able to wake up?" What's wrong with that sentence? I'm asking you if Vinny wasn't able to wake up for some reason to go to the Reunion... :rolleyes2 I never said anything about Cloud. :S


Several people misunderstood what a clone was. Well?

Wow.. not paying attention, I see. As Cloud says, a Clone has been injected with Jenova Cells and showered with Mako.


You really are slow and seriously over using smilies. The WHM are older than two years old. See how that works?

Nope, I'm not slow, I just didn't understand what you were trying to say because guess what? It didn't make sense. I know the clones are older than two. Cloud was experimented on, becoming a Sephiroth Clone, when he was roughly Kadaj's age. See how that works?


Hes the only mad scientist I can think of who experimented with J-cells.

*holds back laughter* Does the name "Gast" ring a bell?

[Squall of SeeD]

But Cloud says he wasn't following him...

Cloud also thought he was created a few years ago when he said that. hich isnt true. He was having a breakdown when he said that.

Hojo had already hinted toward Cloud being summoned to the Reunion well before that point:

(At Costa Del Sol.)

Hojo
"Hmm! I believe we're both after the same goal."

Cloud
"You mean Sephiroth?"

Hojo
"Did you see him?"
"I see..... Ha! Ha!"

(He stands up)

Cloud
"What is it?"

Hojo
"Nothing. I just remembered a certain hypothesis......."
"Haven't you ever had the feeling something is calling you?"
"Or that you had to visit some place?......"

Cloud
"I'll go anywhere Sephiroth is at!"
"To beat him and put an end to all this!"

Hojo
"I see...... This could be interesting."
"Were you in SOLDIER? ....Heh heh heh! Would you like to be my
guinea pig?"

In other words, Luthien's argument involves acknowledging confirmation of a plot point already offered previous foreshadowing, whereas yours requires ignoring it simply because it contradicts your argument. To put it another way, Luthien's argument involves something stated to us by the game which is never contradicted, whereas yours doesn't.



Vincenthas control over his mutations apparently.

Where do you get that Vincent has control of his mutations out of him transforming and becoming uncontrollable to the player? Vincent is in a constant Berserk-like state when he's in one of his Limit Break forms. How is Vincent being in a state in which he's no longer controllable by the player indicative of him being in control of his mutations?

Also, if he's in control of his mutations, as Luthien has pointed out, why are they Limit Breaks and not basic commands like Terra's Morph in Final Fantasy VI?



...if he was muttering Sephiroth and reunion and in the same physical state as the other clones then he wouldnt have been suitable to join the party or remotely conscious which Cloud was for most of the game until Seph and Jenova attacked his mind.

Cloud was a mess well before he was being mentally assaulted. Even before that, he was randomly having semi-blackouts and flashbacks, even in the first two Mako Reactors.




As Hojo says, the Reunion menas all of the J-Cells being reunited. Therefore, Vincent would have woken up and appeared at the Reunion as well. But he didn't. Why didn't just just show up as an NPC?

Maybe he died on the way? Or maybe they wanted you to be able to get him after the northern crater if that possible.

Obviously he didn't die on the way. The canon of the story is that he didn't, so there's no arguing this point with "In the event that the player didn't get him beforehand." As for the player being intended to get him later, that's almost equally ridiculus, as it's obvious that one would be intended to get him as soon as he was available. Likewise with Yuffie, or this particular line of dialogue at the end of Disc 2 from her wouldn't make sense:


Yuffie
"I didn't go through all that just to have you guys have the
best parts all to yourselves!"


One would have to wonder what all Yuffie had gone through if she had only been acquired shortly before making this statement.

For that matter, when first meeting Vincent, he asks if he will meet Hojo at some point if he goes with Cloud and the others, to which Cloud responds "Dunno. But we're after him and Sephiroth, so I guess sooner or later...."

It was during Disc 1 that AVALANCHE was chasing "Sephiroth" across the continents.



No those monster didnt turn back but hes an opptional so theyd bend the rules easily. When I said control I meant being able to change back.

Thank you for that entirely unsupported and unreasonable point. We don't know that Vincent just changes back at will. The indication certainly isn't that he transforms at will, so why think he transforms back at will?



I was saying he could die on the way if he wasnt a part of the party and like I said before I dont think hed attend the reunion while he was sleeping.

I've already addressed the matter of canon in regard to Vincent being dead, so I won't bother with that again, but as for the second part of your sentence... why didn't he just wake up, then? It's not as though he couldn't have left anytime he wanted to. Cloud didn't wake him from some inescapable slumber, after all. He just walked into the room and Vincent clearly was simply awoken from normal sleep, even throwing the lid off his coffin himself.



what?
what do you mean by created? They were definitlely alive at the time of the reunion. How would they have been injected with J-cells after the game?

Your question that's sort of proposed here about them not being at the Reunion could be addressed the same way you've gone about "handling" the matter of Vincent not showing up: "Maybe they were asleep." In any event, I'm not going to go that ridiculous route and just point out again that they could have been injected with JENOVA's Cells after the first Reunion. It's certainly not something beyond anyone's capabilities but Hojo to perform. Place JENOVA Cells into a syringe and inject them. I'm not seeing the "Only Hojo could do it!" aspect of this... especially since Hojo had only been Gast's assistant during the injection of JENOVA Cells into Lucrecia.

Anyway, seeing as how we don't yet know the origins of the Silver-Haired Men, I don't think it's really something to speculate on, as whatever Kazushige Nojima has worked out should sufficiently explain the matter.


As for the matter of "It doesn't need to be all of the clones" at the Reunion, it's safe to assume that -- at the least -- we would have seen a psychological representation of Vincent having JENOVA's Cells as we do from everyone else -- or every other group of People -- with them:

1) Cloud and the Sephiroth Clones (folks infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA's Cells after Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim) are obvious.
2) We have the Junon Accessory Shop owner (a former member of SOLDIER, Shin-Ra's elite soldiers, who, like the Sephiroth Clones, were infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA Cells) show us that members of SOLDIER felt the call of the Reunion, despite not being forced to go, as he donned a black cape without knowing why, saying he's felt like wearing it recently.
3) Lucrecia (the mother of Sephiroth who had JENOVA Cells injected into her while Sephiroth was still in the womb) mentions having had dreams of Sephiroth in the recent times before AVALANCHE meeting her in her cave.
4) Sephiroth is also obvious.
5) Hojo (who had injected JENOVA Cells into himself some time before the firing of the Sister Ray at the Northern Crater, though likely not too long before as his mind was much more stable when he was last seen before that point and no move to kill him to reclaim JENOVA Cells from him is made at the Reunion) is also obvious.
5) The creatures in the reactor (other folks altered by JENOVA's Cells and possibly Mako infusion) displayed permanent transformations and what was likely insanity (interestingly enough, the same thing said by Ifalna to have happened to the Cetra 2,000 years before the main events of the game when JENOVA released some virus among them; granted, we don't know what that virus was and it may not have had anything to do with JENOVA's Cells, but it's certainly something to rouse suspicion when we know those with JENOVA's Cells within them can transform, and in -- at the very least -- Hojo's case, show signs of insanity) with the way it was howling before it fell out of that pod.

In other words, we have five confirmed types of People with JENOVA Cells within them, all of whom display psychological instability or are shown to have JENOVA Cells within them. Neither of these things happen with Vincent. While it could possibly be argued that Vincent losing control while transformed is such a sign -- or that his immortality is a sign, seeing as how Lucrecia states that the JENOVA Cells within her wouldn't let her die -- there's still the matter of him having been killed before whatever experiments were conducted on him, then being brought back to life as a result of them, there being any number of effects this might have had with using any non-JENOVA materials Hojo used during the experiment, and there's also the matter of him reverting to normal after his transformations, unlike the Pod Experiments, and that his transformations look nothing at all like the grotesque forms that Hojo, the Pod Experiments, or even Sephiroth took on:

Vincent's Limit Breaks:
Galian Beast (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/GalianBeast2.jpg).
Hellmasker (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Hellmasker.jpg).
Death Gigas (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/DeathGigas.jpg).
Chaos (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Chaos.jpg).

JENOVA Transformations:
Nibelheim Pod Reactor Experiment (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/PodExperiment.jpg).
Hellectic Hojo (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/HellecticHojo.jpg).
Lifeform Hojo (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/LifeformHojo.jpg).
Bizarro Sephiroth (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Bizarro.jpg).


There's really nothing to confirm Vincent being injected with JENOVA's Cells at this time. We simply have to wait for Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus to show us whether or not it is so.

[meowwl]

YAY!! finally a post that is sensible! "There's really nothing to confirm Vincent being injected with JENOVA's Cells at this time. We simply have to wait for Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus to show us whether or not it is so"...enough with the quote wars already! :tongue:

[CloudStrife48]

Wow I never even though of that, I applaud you!! :D He must be immortal then

[amratis]

YAY!! finally a post that is sensible! "There's really nothing to confirm Vincent being injected with JENOVA's Cells at this time. We simply have to wait for Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus to show us whether or not it is so"...enough with the quote wars already! :tongue:

Ah but they're so fun :D

My two-cents - I dont think Vincent has J-cells in him, I think he just got experimented on with some screwed up stuff, but NOT the j-cells. thats all.

[Kamrusepas]

I think the reason Vince wasn't summoned to the Reunion was that he wasn't a clone like the black caped guys....

[Ouch!]

I generally agree that there's no solid information that would lead us to believe that Vincent had JENOVA cells in him. On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of reasons why he shouldn't. I'm not going to continue the quote wars by repeating those reason because quote wars are absolutely ridiculous.

I will just say that if Vincent had JENOVA cells, that would have been something that would have been clearly stated as that'd be a very important part of Vincent's character. Optional character or not, they'd have made it clear that he did.

[Nanakiroth]

Maybe somebody's already said this in this thread, but I can't be bothered reading through more than the first page...

But..... I've read alot of stuff about Vincent Being Undead or a Vampire or something, which IMO is bullcrap, but anyway, If he doesn't age, then maybe that is why?

I don't know, I don't care, just adding more points.

[Shoden]

Vincent was experimented on before lucrecia so most likely he was not given Jenova cells but only square knows

anyway he cant die of any natural causes he can only be killed by murder or decapitation i think

Vincent = not a vampire

im sick of retards who say that honestly he goes into daylight he doesnt suck on cloud and co's blood but he does do other cool stuff vampires do i never watched vampire movies though

[Squall of SeeD]

Vincent was experimented on before lucrecia so most likely he was not given Jenova cells but only square knows

He wasn't experimented on before Lucrecia was. It was after Lucrecia seemingly died from complications during Sephiroth's birth that Vincent confronts Hojo in anger and Hojo shoots him.

[Nova Briar]

It was after Lucrecia seemingly died from complications during Sephiroth's birth that Vincent confronts Hojo in anger and Hojo shoots him.
Kay, I'm not contesting your point because you're waaay smarter than I am ( :D ) and I think you're right, besides. I just wanted to know where exactly in the game we were told that Lucrecia "died" during Sephy's birth. (When you go to Lucrecia's cave?) It's been a long time since I played through VII, and my short term memory's shot besides--but I'd love to see that again, since apparently I missed it....

[Squall of SeeD]

Kay, I'm not contesting your point because you're waaay smarter than I am ( :D ) and I think you're right, besides. I just wanted to know where exactly in the game we were told that Lucrecia "died" during Sephy's birth. (When you go to Lucrecia's cave?) It's been a long time since I played through VII, and my short term memory's shot besides--but I'd love to see that again, since apparently I missed it....

The implication offered seemed to be that Vincent believed her to have died. She's shown in a flashback collapsing after Vincent says "After that, a child was born to Lucrecia... That child's name is... Sephiroth..." and the manner in which he speaks in the Shin-Ra Mansion's basement would suggest this:


Vincent
"You were also with Shinra...? Then do you know Lucrecia?"

Cloud
"Who?"

Vincent
"......Lucrecia."

(Cloud shakes his head.)

Vincent
"The woman who gave birth to Sephiroth."

Cloud
"...gave birth...?"
"Wasn't Jenova Sephiroth's mother?"

Vincent
"That isn't completely wrong, but just a theory."
"He was born from a beautiful lady."
"That lady was Lucrecia."
"She was an assistant to Professor Gast of the Jenova Project.
Beautiful... Lucrecia."

Cloud
"...A human experiment?"

Vincent
"There was no way to cancel the experiment."
"I couldn't stop her."
"That was my sin."
"I let the one I loved, the one I respected most, face the worst."

Tifa
"So the punishment was sleep? That's weird."

Perhaps others interpreted it differently?

Thanks for the compliment, by the way.

[Nova Briar]

Oh, I see...I thought there was actually a scene/line/whatever in the game that specifically told you that Lucrecia was thought to be dead. But yeah, I can see how one would assume she was dead after that. I never really gave her fate much thought, because I was busy doing other very important things. (*coughdroolingoverVincentcough*) :love: ;) Thanks for clearing that up, though. Oh...and you're welcome for the compliment, which you deserve anyway. ^_^

[Shoden]

well Squall I maybe smart but when it comes to Final Fantasy you are the better of all of us and i like the way you dont actually gloat like past arguements on other forums i had and the name calling well thats why i'm here


anyway get away from the sapiness ok okk

what experimentations did vincent actually have?

[Squall of SeeD]

Thanks again for the compliments, folks. ^^;

Anyway, in response to your question Shoden... that's a good question. We're never really told what Hojo did to Vincent. The best we've got is that the Ehrgeiz instruction manual calls it "anatomic reconstruction," which is far less-than-specific, as it could relate to anything pertaining to Vincent's anatomy, and there's a whole lot of anatomy to tinker with in the human body. Perhaps it had something to do with JENOVA's Cells, perhaps it was to do with random monster cells, perhaps both, or perhaps neither.

The game offers us too little information to make a determination, sadly.

[Shoden]

well why dont we raid square enix and force the answers from them they are the only ones who know.

which limit break did you prefer out of the 4?
me Hellmasker

[Squall of SeeD]

well why dont we raid square enix and force the answers from them they are the only ones who know.

which limit break did you prefer out of the 4?
me Hellmasker

You work out the details, though the chances of snagging Kazushige Nojima, Yoshinori Kitase, and Tetsuya Nomura at the same time are probably a bit smaller than one would hope.

And I guess I preferred Chaos. I didn't really use Vincent much.

[Shoden]

really after i somehow got over the glitch in disk 2 he was in my main party always my main party was usually Cloud Vincent and usually Red XIII coz he kept high stats and had lots of materia slots so the reduction was minor

Hellmasker's combo exceeds 10,000 in damage

[amratis]

I really liked Vincent as a character, so I had him in my party alot, even though I personally thought his limit breaks sucked just alittle bit.

[Shoden]

kidding hellmaskers combo was awesome raise vincent right and its 10,000 damage + a turn baby
chaos was a let down and death gigas was annoying same with galian beast

[Nova Briar]

I really liked Vincent as a character, so I had him in my party alot, even though I personally thought his limit breaks sucked just alittle bit.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who had Vincent in their party just cause he was so spiffy. ;) I didn't think his limit breaks were so bad, though they definitely weren't the best in the game. The most annoying thing was how you lost control of his actions...but in return you got a big boost in his stats, so I guess it evened out.

[meowwl]

I usually had Vincent in my party just for the stuff he'd say at points in the game...For a "hidden" character, he adds a lot to the game IMO. Stuff that you wouldn't know without him, like the whole Lucretia at the waterfall cave thing. I remember the scenes that showed Lucretia running from him, into the arms of a guy in a white labcoat, Hojo I assume. Then she appears pregnant, and walks a few steps, and collapses. I like Vincents personality..He seems to be more mature and contemplative than the other characters. The whole 'angsty but not whining about it' thing is sexier than hell!

[Greiver205]

Wow :whoa:...there are more Vincent fans than i expected...well i only had him in my party when i first got him, then he got boring so i switched out and only put him back like 2 more times...i never really liked him.

[Chibi Angel]

I love vincent :love: I tried to get him as soon as I possibly could and kept him in my party. I kinda like his overdrives even if they aren't the best, I think it would be awesome to turn into a demon. :p

[GibsonGoth131]

I LOVE Vincent!!! His background story was awesome, and actually meant a lot to the actual story itself (which makes me question why he was a optional character...)
He's really good in battle too, althoug his limit breaks are annoying because you can't control him! Oh well, Im happy square is making him the main character in DOC though!

[Aeri1028]

Vincent is Fifty-nine in Advent Children,if it dosn't take place before his birthday that year.

He had been sleeping in his coffin for thirty years.So in the game he was fifty-seven.

[Croyles]

Go vincent!

[AlmightySephiroth]

Vincent is 27!!! He is not immortal just ageless.