Red XIII is...

[Yuffie514]

i've always questioned what type of animal Red is :confused: . sometimes me thinks hyena, and at other times, a lion :p . maybe he's an Indian lion w/ braided hair :D ? it's that funny looking mane that gets me thinking he's more of a hyena :eek: :p . anyone wanna debate :D ?

[Destai]

I dont htink there were any normal animals in FFVII except dogs and cats. Lion comes to mind alright.

[redxiiii]

soughta, a cross between a lion and a moomba, maybe? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Yuffie514]

me thinks half lion, half hyena :joey: . he looks more lion-ey :mad: , but those who've played FFVII knows he can howl :eek: . lions don't howl :whoa: :D .

[Camanche]

Heh Moomba? Now that I think of it, he looks like another form of a Moomba perhaps. Have Moombas appeared in any games before FFVIII? It's as interesting thought that Red XIII could be a form of a highly intellignet Moomba race. :D

[ShunNakamura]

Hmm.. I have always just seen red as some sort of glorified Canine.

Of course that is cause I am a canine fan.

Red's head and mouth are definately of a canine form. However I do not know of many canines with a physical build that matches his... that defenatle looks like a large feline to me.. So he is the Canis Felinas. :eek:

[Destai]

X-2 suggests VII is X's world 1 or 2,000 years later. Maybe hes the last of what was the Ronso?

[Camanche]

Heh, never thought of it that way. Though I am a little wary of anything based off of X-2 when it comes to FFVII's past. Is X-2's world the exact same world as FFVII's, or did Shinra simply make his way to another planet(and were considered the race of the Cetra), and the 'traitor humans', who stopped travelling to search for the promise land instead developed machines/means to harvest the life energy that exists on any planet that has life? I thought I heard that this was the case, but I can't rememeber where I heard it, nor do I have a quote/interview to back it up. Anyone know? lol I'd be an interesting idea if Red XIII's race was a form of evolved (or de-evolved in some ways) Ronso.

[udsuna]

Actually, I think Red was based off of some old native american entities. Given the whole Cosmo Canyon's theme, he comes off pretty close. It has, however, been a VERY long time since my native mythology was brushed up upon. But there were, in the southeastern US (navajo area), myths of a "race" of intelligent, coyote/wolf type ancestor spirits. Asking what Red is pretty much falls along the lines of asking what a Pheonix or Ifrit is.

[TheSpoonyBard]

Red XIII (Nanaki) is an enigma. It says so in the game manual. Therefore, no one knows what he is. From what I have read here I most agree with ShunNakamura's point about him being a mixture of canine and feline. Honestly I don't care what he is, he's a great character and that's all that matters.

[Destai]

Actually, I think Red was based off of some old native american entities. Given the whole Cosmo Canyon's theme, he comes off pretty close. It has, however, been a VERY long time since my native mythology was brushed up upon. But there were, in the southeastern US (navajo area), myths of a "race" of intelligent, coyote/wolf type ancestor spirits. Asking what Red is pretty much falls along the lines of asking what a Pheonix or Ifrit is.He may well ahve been but who says the ronso thing was planned back then? Maybe they just worked that suggestion into later games.

[UltimaLimit]

Definately cat/dog cross. Cats don't howl, but dogs don't have that build. And I could've sworn I saw Red XIII cleaning himself like a cat at one point, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks.

[Yuffie514]

well, he's certainly a good mountain climber too ;) .

[strawberryman]

I think Reds a werecat.
or something...

[Destai]

He becomes human during full moons?

[Angel of light]

I think he is something like a crossing of a lion and a wolf.

[Captain Maxx Power]

Red is a metaphor of the old ways of the planet, the nature side, slowly being killed off. Dur.

[redxiiii]

[QUOTE=Maxx Power]Red is a metaphor of the old ways of the planet, the nature side, slowly being killed off. Dur.[/Q


That simple huh :rolleyes2

[Destai]

More Cosmo Canyon than Red if you think theres much of a difference.

[Red XIII]

I agree with Angel of light. I think he's a wolf/lion cross. However, I also agree with Forest Owl, in the fact that Red XIII is a great character, and it don't matter what he is!He's so coooool!
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Red XIII rocks! Nanaki rocks! He's the coolest!

[YukiKiro]

wolf/lion with a hint of tiger. i don't know many animals who are orange. but don't you think this thread is kind of odd? the wilderness is filled with creatures few of us could have thought of, and tiny fat bears with wings walk around(you know what animal i speak of).

[Yuffie514]

the wilderness is filled with creatures few of us could have thought of, and tiny fat bears with wings walk around(you know what animal i speak of).

haha, i may not have guessed it right :D , but i was thinking of Sakura Avalon's little guardian friend :p . n-e-ways, maybe it's better that Red's race is left an enigma ;) , but someone's gotta ask don't ya think ;) !

[Dark Matter]

I've no idea, but I always think that Red XIII's a lone wolf, just because I love wolf...... I don't think it's hyane/lion/moomba/ronso.

1. Hyane hunts in group, but RedXIII's always alone.
2. Ronso has a BIG, SUPER BIG HORN!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Lion has a mane....
4. Moomba has big claws......

Did you notice his golden shining tail?? SO C@@L!!!

[TheSpoonyBard]

Did you notice his golden shining tail?? SO C@@L!!!
His tail is on fire. Don't ask why, it just is. I think the only people who know the real answer to Red XIII's origins are Red himself, Bugenhagen, Seto (if he could talk), and all the people at SQUARE. Perhaps someone should email them and get some clarification.

[DJZen]

I'm working under the theory that a Ronso got freaky with a Liger.

[Skyblade]

His tail is on fire. Don't ask why, it just is. I think the only people who know the real answer to Red XIII's origins are Red himself, Bugenhagen, Seto (if he could talk), and all the people at SQUARE. Perhaps someone should email them and get some clarification.

Oh, right. Like they'd really answer.

[Masamune·1600]

Red XIII is of a fantasy species, unique to FFVII. It's possible that FFVIII's Moombas were loosely based on Nanaki, but to suggest that Red is a Moomba is anachronistic, in real world terms. What other people have suggested, that he is partially based on Native American mythology, is likely. Also, the suggestion that Red is a metaphor is also correct, but I don't think that directly influenced his species. Besides, wouldn't the Cetra be the better metaphor for "the old ways of the planet, the nature side, slowly being killed off"?

There is no direct link between FFX-2 and FFVII; based on the Shinra logic, one could find links between FFIX and other FF's, based on the intentional references to previous games. If there actually were a link between VII and X-2, it would be on the order of millions of years. The culture of X/X-2 would have had to disappeared completely, and you would have to account for continental drift and the like. Bone Village shows no evidence of Spira, and there were no fossilized Guados when Gast discovered Jenova. If that were the case, then Shinra's descendents and their technology would have vanished. Since he is the alleged link between the games, I restate that there is no literal connection.

The Al Bhed as the Cetra? Well, assuming the Ancients' Journey was inter- and not intraplanetary, I would question why exactly they have any sort of spiritual connection with the planet. Further, Shinra (the VII company, not the X-2 character) only recently devleoped its Mako technology. So the link still fails.

Well, that's what I see, anyway.

[Squall of SeeD]

There is no direct link between FFX-2 and FFVII; based on the Shinra logic, one could find links between FFIX and other FF's, based on the intentional references to previous games.

The writer would argue differently:

(From an interview with Kazushige Nojima (writer), Motoru Toriyama (director), and Daisuke Watanabe (scenario planner) in the Final Fantasy X-2 Ultimania Guide.)

-- Is there a connection between Shinra and FFVII?

Nojima: Yes, actually. After Shinra quit the Gullwings he got enormous financial backing from Rin and went to the Farplane to start extracting the Mako energy used by the Vegnagun. But the system for utilizing this energy could not be completed in his generation, so far in the future when space travel was possible, the Shinra Company was founded on another planet... or something like that. That would be a thousand years or so from this game's story.

-- And VII's story takes place after that?

Nojima: Well, you could say that's how I personally feel about it.

By the way, according to this site (http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/findex.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMidgar%2Bto%2BSpira%2BFinal%2BFantasy%2Bconnection%2BNojima%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) , the following information also should apply based on the context of the interview:


The second statement where Nojima says that is how he "personally feels about it" is an inaccurate translation, as far as the context of the interview goes.

The rough translation reads "Even well, in me such feeling you will say." In Japanese context, it really means something along the lines of"It's all in my head," or, "It's just inside me." Nojima says this because of the fact that everything he described (Spira travelling in space, 1,000 year gap) isn't in the game with the other evidence (because that would only deviate from the main story, thus, more subtle hints are found instead,) but rather, it is just in his head at the moment.

This is not implying that there really isn't a connection, but Nojima personally feels like there is (otherwise, why would this have been published in the first place? He IS the writer, after all.) Rather, it should mean there is a connection, but it just hasn't been expanded on yet. Nojima planned a connection, put what evidence there is in the game, but as far as the details of how they are connected, it is just in his head at the moment.

Again, the key words are IS and HOW. There IS a connection, Nojima says, but as far as HOW there is a connection, that hasn't been worked out yet in much detail.
Also of note, Olivier Hague of the GameFAQs forums, who knows Japanese and read the entire interview, was able to bring us some more juicy details. "Nojima talks about how he already had that connection in mind when he created the characters (he then talks about Shinra, so I assume he means "the characters of Final Fantasy X-2"). He thought it was funny to think that a nice kid like Shinra would eventually have evil descendants like President Shinra.

Watanabe (Scenerio Planner) then notes that one of the staff members, having seen Shnira's episode (i.e. the connection), arranged the camera work during that event when you first see Under Bevelle, so that it would bring memories back to the players. Toriyama (Director) chimes in, and says that it's indeed similar to the opening sequence of "Final Fantasy VII", when we see Midgar for the first time."



If there actually were a link between VII and X-2, it would be on the order of millions of years. The culture of X/X-2 would have had to disappeared completely, and you would have to account for continental drift and the like.

Gaia and Spira being different Planets accounts for this.



Further, Shinra (the VII company, not the X-2 character) only recently devleoped its Mako technology. So the link still fails.

Are we actually told when the concept itself was developed? We know that it had only been some thirty years before the main events of the game that they began manufacturing Mako Reactors, but perhaps there had been technological limitations for some time.

[Masamune·1600]

I should have known someone would look to that interview (would that it had never taken place). Alright, the writer notes that this is his personal interpretation. Why does this matter? He is the writer, after all. Well, essentially it matters because times change. Hironobu Sakaguchi is no longer with the company, but, as you'll recall, he had quite a bit to do with FFVII. Nojima and Yoshinori Katase (who also directed FFVII) wrote the story for the actual game, which was based on the story by Sakaguchi and Tetsuya Nomura. Therefore, Nojima's opinion is just that: an opinion. The other three have the same right to speculate on the matter. As a matter of fact, Sakaguchi, Nomura, and Kitase are the three names I most commonly associate with FFVII's story. Nojima has some catching up to do.

Nojima says that this is how he sees it. Yes, fine, but since the story of FFVII is not solely his own idea, it remains (at least to me) only speculation. Watanabe and Toriyama were not among the main credits for FFVII, so their thoughts on the matter seem little more than fan fiction to me.

It's pretty clear he hasn't worked out "how" this happens in great detail. If FFVII is only 1000 years in the future, then the Al Bhed clearly arrive after everything happened with the Cetra and Jenova at Knowlespole. They simply couldn't have vanished to the extent that they receive no mention. "Well, of course they're not mentioned; FFVII was written long before X-2." Precisely. There was no original intent to make this connection, and doing so afterwards just somehow doesn't seem as legitimate. From the scant information given in the interview, Nojima's ideas can't come to life without altering FFVII's story at least a bit. That doesn't seem legitimate at all.

As to the point on when the concept of Mako condensation was developed, remember this: Shinra only recently developed space travel (see Highwind, Cid). So, in their time on the planet, they lost advanced (intersystem) space travel, but learned the secret of of Mako condensation? Even if given that, why did Shinra start out as a weapons developer, only returning to the 'dream' when it was discovered to be more profitable? Again I note: the events of FFVII were not written with X-2 in mind. It's that simple.

As to the original reason this point even came up, Red XIII is OBVIOUSLY not descended from the Ronso. 1000 years, especially given the long life spans of Red's species, is not nearly long enough for such evolution that drastic to take place.


Why am I so vehemently opposed to this idea? Well, because I feel the FF's are and should remain separate. I love to see references in the game, and, had that interview never taken place, I would still thoroughly enjoy the reference. I don't anymore, given what it has spawned.

[Squall of SeeD]

Hironobu Sakaguchi is no longer with the company, but, as you'll recall, he had quite a bit to do with FFVII. Nojima and Yoshinori Katase (who also directed FFVII) wrote the story for the actual game, which was based on the story by Sakaguchi and Tetsuya Nomura. Therefore, Nojima's opinion is just that: an opinion. The other three have the same right to speculate on the matter.

I agree that the other three have as much right to speculate on the matter, and if one of them were to argue "No, that's not the way it's supposed to be" in an equally official capacity, then the concept would be rendered null and void. That's not to say, however, that either of the other three certainly like the concept, though one would think Nomura would have offered something to that effect if hewasn't permissive of the concept, seeing as how he also worked on X-2. It's not as though the concept was being presented behind his back.

By the way, it seems like you're downplaying the importance of Nojima's role a good deal. Nomura and Sakaguchi came up with the concepts, sure (the focus on life, death, and spirituality, Aerith's death, etc.; thus, the "Based on the story by..." credits for them), but Kitase and Nojima would have been those who gave them specifications and such. By the way, seeing as how Nojima is the sole writer for Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core, I'm thinking it just might be that Square-Enix at the least regards him as something of an authority as well by this point.



As a matter of fact, Sakaguchi, Nomura, and Kitase are the three names I most commonly associate with FFVII's story. Nojima has some catching up to do.

How is that anymore than personal opinion than what you claimed Nojima's concept to be? That's selectively acknowledging who you consider important to the production and who you don't, despite the obvious importance placed on them.



Nojima says that this is how he sees it. Yes, fine, but since the story of FFVII is not solely his own idea, it remains (at least to me) only speculation. Watanabe and Toriyama were not among the main credits for FFVII, so their thoughts on the matter seem little more than fan fiction to me.

That's a fair enough point, and one I wouldn't seek to argue with.



It's pretty clear he hasn't worked out "how" this happens in great detail. If FFVII is only 1000 years in the future, then the Al Bhed clearly arrive after everything happened with the Cetra and Jenova at Knowlespole. They simply couldn't have vanished to the extent that they receive no mention.

If they decide to expand on the concept, perhaps an answer to how they could have been so easily forgotten will be offered. By the way, I wouldn't say that the folks from Spira would have certainly had to arrive after JENOVA's assault on the Cetra. Sephiroth's words in the Shinra Mansion's library suggest that some Cetra turned from the Cetra ways before JENOVA's arrival, these Cetra becoming Common Homo Sapiens, and the ancestors of Gaia's dominant species in the game's present. The reason I would deem this potentially relevant is that something like offworlders arriving and presenting different ways of life could very well be something that would lead to certain Cetra abandoning their current one. The possibility is as likely as the one you've mentioned.



From the scant information given in the interview, Nojima's ideas can't come to life without altering FFVII's story at least a bit. That doesn't seem legitimate at all.

How so? Considering how little they actually explain Gaia's past, there's more than enough room there for a great deal to be added without changing anything. Unless "fleshing it out" is essentially the same thing as "Totally altering what was already established," which I personally wouldn't think to be the case.



As to the point on when the concept of Mako condensation was developed, remember this: Shinra only recently developed space travel (see Highwind, Cid). So, in their time on the planet, they lost advanced (intersystem) space travel, but learned the secret of of Mako condensation? Even if given that, why did Shinra start out as a weapons developer, only returning to the 'dream' when it was discovered to be more profitable? Again I note: the events of FFVII were not written with X-2 in mind. It's that simple.

That's obvious enough. I can't imagine anyone arguing that VII was written with X, X-2, Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, or Crisis Core in mind. That would be a highly fallacious argument. However, I seem to recall J. R. R. Tolkien not having written The Hobbit with The Lord of the Rings in mind or with the intention of linking The Hobbit to The Silmarillion, yet it came to be, and was certainly not lacking legitimacy.

For that matter, how many authors who create sequels or link one of their works to one or more other works were likely to have intended that to be the case at the beginning?



As to the original reason this point even came up, Red XIII is OBVIOUSLY not descended from the Ronso. 1000 years, especially given the long life spans of Red's species, is not nearly long enough for such evolution that drastic to take place.

Agreed. Very much agreed.



Why am I so vehemently opposed to this idea? Well, because I feel the FF's are and should remain separate. I love to see references in the game, and, had that interview never taken place, I would still thoroughly enjoy the reference. I don't anymore, given what it has spawned.

I take it, then, you're not much a fan of the concept of Final Fantasy III and VIII's world being the same? >>

[Crop]

I'm working under the theory that a Ronso got freaky with a Liger.

LMAO! funny
I dont really care what he is hes a good character though.

[Masamune·1600]

By the way, it seems like you're downplaying the importance of Nojima's role a good deal. Nomura and Sakaguchi came up with the concepts, sure (the focus on life, death, and spirituality, Aerith's death, etc.; thus, the "Based on the story by..." credits for them), but Kitase and Nojima would have been those who gave them specifications and such. By the way, seeing as how Nojima is the sole writer for Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core, I'm thinking it just might be that Square-Enix at the least regards him as something of an authority as well by this point.




How is that anymore than personal opinion than what you claimed Nojima's concept to be? That's selectively acknowledging who you consider important to the production and who you don't, despite the obvious importance placed on them.

Yes, that's very subjective. Just relaying my own opinions. For whatever reason, when I think of FFVII, I think Sakaguchi, Kitase, and Nomura. And Uematsu, of course.






If they decide to expand on the concept, perhaps an answer to how they could have been so easily forgotten will be offered. By the way, I wouldn't say that the folks from Spira would have certainly had to arrive after JENOVA's assault on the Cetra. Sephiroth's words in the Shinra Mansion's library suggest that some Cetra turned from the Cetra ways before JENOVA's arrival, these Cetra becoming Common Homo Sapiens, and the ancestors of Gaia's dominant species in the game's present. The reason I would deem this potentially relevant is that something like offworlders arriving and presenting different ways of life could very well be something that would lead to certain Cetra abandoning their current one. The possibility is as likely as the one you've mentioned.

It's chronologically impossible, given what Nojima has said. JENOVA was found in a "2000 year old geological stratum", while Nojima's remarks have FFVII only 1000 years after X/X-2. Admittedly, it would be very easy to adjust 1000 years to 2000-2500, and....I now see how exactly they could pull it off, and I don't like it. The mysterious jet in Bone Village becomes a remnant of Al Bhed technology. The Al Bhed, after imparting their philosophy, could have been wiped out by the JENOVA impact. No! NO! It still doesn't explain why there is no oral tradition regarding the Al Bhed, as well as other notable gaps, but it shows that a...semi-plausible explanation could be reached. And, as I've said before, the idea sickens me. Yes, I'm clearly biased, in that I'm doing all I can to suggest the idea is implausible. I don't want to see FFVII linked to X and X-2.

For that matter, you're absolutely right as to III and VIII; I dislike that proposition as well. For the record, the only connection I'll endorse is that the characters in TA were playing XII in order to form the template for Ivalice, and only because the link doesn't directly connect the worlds.

Except in the case of direct sequels (X and X-2, the entire Compilation of FFVII), I feel that the worlds and stories of Final Fantasy are and should remain separate entities. I personally have no objection to sequels, as long as there are legitimate questions left to be answered. Thus, for almost every game, I wouldn't be terribly upset with a sequel. However, connecting the games bothers me in a way no sequel could. I don't even mind the speculation, as long as it doesn't become official. If I see evidence of a connection (not just a fun reference) to X/X-2 in AC, BC, CC, or DC, I'll be very disappointed. Clearly, I'm totally in the realm of opinion right now. But that's my honest opinion. I don't want to see a connection between VII and X, or III and VIII, or any other game (especially VII and X-2).

Squall, what are your feelings on the matter? Do you want to see the games connected? Do you oppose it? Are you indifferent?

[Squall of SeeD]

For that matter, you're absolutely right as to III and VIII; I dislike that proposition as well. For the record, the only connection I'll endorse is that the characters in TA were playing XII in order to form the template for Ivalice...

That's the same determination I had made. Meaning those bastards in Tactics Advance got XII first! ::shakes fist::



If I see evidence of a connection (not just a fun reference) to X/X-2 in AC, BC, CC, or DC, I'll be very disappointed.

What do you think of that Dirge of Cerberus character's resemblance to the Guado?: Linkage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Guado-lookingguyinDirgeofCerberus.jpg). ::wonders if this will send you into convulsions:: >>



Squall, what are your feelings on the matter? Do you want to see the games connected? Do you oppose it? Are you indifferent?

Well, I wouldn't mind seeing it done. I would find it interesting, for sure. It would make Nojima's interview actually relevant, and -- in all honesty -- I do have an interest in seeing where his mind could take such a concept. I'm more supportive of the concept than indifferent, I suppose.

[Rinen]

I created a gif to show the morph between those the worlds of VII and VIII. I haven't uploaded the gif on anything, but in a thousand years, it would probably fit together good enough. Giving the circumstances after what happened in the end. It can show for the loss of land through melting of glacier, perhaps it can trigger drastic movements of the tectonic plates. Somewhere on my computer I wrote up a whole thing of similarities and possibilities between the worlds of VII and VIII, which to me seemed pretty valid once you learn all the information and concepts beforehand. I'll have to find it one day.

[Squall of SeeD]

I created a gif to show the morph between those the worlds of VII and VIII. I haven't uploaded the gif on anything, but in a thousand years, it would probably fit together good enough. Giving the circumstances after what happened in the end. It can show for the loss of land through melting of glacier, perhaps it can trigger drastic movements of the tectonic plates. Somewhere on my computer I wrote up a whole thing of similarities and possibilities between the worlds of VII and VIII, which to me seemed pretty valid once you learn all the information and concepts beforehand. I'll have to find it one day.

This reminds me that I have the theory behind III and VIII's world being the same posted on this Forum. If yourself or anyone else is interested in the concept of the world of III and VIII being the same (note that I'm referring to the actual Final Fantasy III, and not the one released on the SNES as Final Fantasy III in North America, it actually being Final Fantasy VI), by the way, refer to my Post in this Thread (http://www.forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=1010581#post1010581).

[Masamune·1600]

What do you think of that Dirge of Cerberus character's resemblance to the Guado?: Linkage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Guado-lookingguyinDirgeofCerberus.jpg). ::wonders if this will send you into convulsions:: >>

I saw the picture several months ago, but hadn't really considered the possiblity of the games being connected at that point. I think I'll convulse a little right now, just in case that character actually is linked.

[Swordicanus]

maybe just a wolf ..no