The final battle

[disapointedchild]

Ok, so at the end of the game, ultimacia starts to say some things and right before you kill her she says "and,"

Is there any way of knowing what she was going to say next. Does anyone know, or have any idea of what it might have been. Did i miss some clues or what. If anyone could clear this up for me that would be nice.

Thanks

[rubah]

I don't think she's ever meant to finish what she's saying?

[disapointedchild]

well if thats the case, then im satisfied.

[ShivaBlizzard8]

Right - according to the game script at rpgamer, "And. . . " is the last thing she says. Perhaps it is meant to reflect the circular nature of the game, but there's no way to know what she meant to say. I guess you'll just have to be satisfied with that. :)

[YukiKiro]

actually, you can't even kill her until she says "and" i can lionheart her 3 times with max damage and it still won't kill her until she says "and".

[DMKA]

Yeah, I think you were supposed to have killed her in the middle of whatever she was saying which "and..." showed.

[Future Esthar]

True Ultimecia is Sorceress Adel in a further past.We are testifying here how Adel borns.But here she is more powerful because she has all of her power´s (unlike in the boss fight which she has to extract from Rinoa).

[Squall of SeeD]

True Ultimecia is Sorceress Adel in a further past.We are testifying here how Adel borns.But here she is more powerful because she has all of her power´s (unlike in the boss fight which she has to extract from Rinoa).

...What? Ultimecia isn't Adel in a further past, or the present or future. Ultimecia is from the future. Adel dies in Squall's present. Ultimecia is alive in the far future. They're not the same Person.

[Future Esthar]

But that´s the question.Ultimecia don´t live on the future but in the far past.Although Edea says the contrary you can´t prove that she is telling the thruth.Looking at it I would say that it was on the past and i will advance to say that it became the Garden Foundation.You have to quest everything on the game.Even if you believe that Edea is not possessed anymore how do you know that Ultimecia telled the thruth to Edea?.It can be a trap to deceive Seed.

[Squall of SeeD]

But that´s the question.Ultimecia don´t live on the future but in the far past.Although Edea says the contrary you can´t prove that she is telling the thruth.Looking at it I would say that it was on the past and i will advance to say that it became the Garden Foundation.You have to quest everything on the game.Even if you believe that Edea is not possessed anymore how do you know that Ultimecia telled the thruth to Edea?.It can be a trap to deceive Seed.

How do we know she was telling the truth?:

1) Because the writer didn't say otherwise. The writer of a story is its God. Unless they put something there or imply its presence, it's not there.

2) It wasn't implied that Ultimecia told Edea she was from the future. The implication was that Edea gleaned it from her mind the same as she gleaned the hate in Ultimecia's heart from her:


Edea
"...I have been possessed all this time."
"I was at the mercy of Sorceress Ultimecia."
"Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations
ahead of our time."
"Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone."
"She is after Ellone's mysterious power."
"I know Ellone very well."
"Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled with anger and
hate."

3) Deceive them how? That information was never used against them in any way despite them believing Ultimecia to be from the future from the moment she was first made note of.

4) Ellone sent Ultimecia's consciousness into the far past to cast Time Compression. The party then moved toward Ultimecia's time, which Ultimecia says was on the brink of Time Compression, meaning it hadn't fully passed over all time yet. The fact that she had to go to the far past to cast Time Compression suggests that the Time Compression wave would forward through time. Granted, we don't know the exact method of function for Time Compression, but there's no indication that Ultimecia isn't in the future.

5) Rinoa also gleaned the information that Ultimecia is from the future from Ultimecia's mind while being possessed:


Rinoa
"...I should tell you this before I go."
"I was possessed out in space. There was a sorceress inside me."
"Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time
compression."


There's never a single indication offered that Ultimecia isn't in the future while she's only ever referred to as being so. Unless you have some in-game support for this notion -- which you simply couldn't due to it never being presented by the game -- it's nothing more than an idea you fancy, and not even a theory in reality, as theories require some form of substantiation. Your canonical statement that Adel is Ultimecia is defeated by the canon of the game.

Besides, if Ultimecia were Adel in the past, that leaves the gaping question of "How was Adel alive in the present to rule Esthar, be confined by Laguna and the Adel Resistance, be sent into space, eventually be brought back down to the Planet, and then be killed by SeeD?"

Also, recall that the device Ultimecia used to possess Sorceresses from the past was called "Junction Machine Ellone." This was because it was created to simulate Ellone's power. Her power was the power to send the consciousness of someone she knows in the present into the mind of someone else she knew in the past:


Ellone
"...You want to save her. You don't want to lose Rinoa."
"Squall, I can't. I don't know Rinoa."
"I told you I can only send people I know in the present into people I knew in the past."

Also, seeing as how Junction Machine Ellone didn't exist in the past (or if it did, it didn't have the power it did during Ultimecia's time; in the game's present Odine states it was only a toy, implying it was something still in need of much refining), how would Adel have had access to it?

[amratis]

Can you imagine your last word being "And"? That would really suck, what a sucky way to go out, - saying "and". I almost feel sorry for her. But not because she's evil and loony

[Future Esthar]

2)I believe she is possessed by Ultimecia yet in the second disc.Better,I believe that she is Ultimecia.
But to answer your question:Ultimecia is using Junction Machine Ellone.So she can use some sort of cassete tape to send its content through junction.Maybe she record a speech in the tape and put it on the machine to send.Maybe the machine receives visual signs from Squall´s era.So it is not implied that she uses it directly on her head.
Concerning your question about Adel.Ultimecia was herself possessed by someone on the future(relative to Squall´s time).So I use the word "Ultimecia" to sustitute the name of this powerful being.The person who uses the cassete tape is not the "Ultimecia" from the game but a more powerful being.And I didn´t said Ultimecia was Adel but True Ultimecia is (Ultimecia Transforms into Adel).

[Squall of SeeD]

2)I believe she is possessed by Ultimecia yet in the second disc.

She was possessed by Ultimecia throughout the second disc. It's at the end of it that she is freed. As for being possessed by her on the third, the things she does would be of no help to Ultimecia. Again, the information regarding Ultimecia being from the future was never used against SeeD in any form, nor was it ever implied that Ultimecia wasn't from the future.

Further still, Edea couldn't have been possessed by Ultimecia at that point, as she was no longer a Sorceress. When Ultimecia was defeated in Galbadia Garden, Edea's powers left her and went to Rinoa. That's why Ultimecia was able to possess Rinoa immediately after the battle and why we're later told that Edea had given up her powers without even knowing it:


Zell
"S'up Squall!!!"
"So glad you're safe!"
"I hate to tell you this now, but we've got major problems down here."
"Well, here it goes!"
"Some big thing called Lunatic Pandora came out of nowhere."
"Matron couldn't achieve what she set out to do because of it. Which is ok."
"Matron's not a sorceress anymore."
"Matron gave away her power to someone without realizing it."

Squall
(To Rinoa......)
(Bolded for emphasis.)

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa in Galbadia Garden because she inherited Edea's powers. Ultimecia could only possess Sorceresses. Were that not the case, Odine wouldn't have said "Sorceress Ultimecia comes from ze future to possess ze sorceress of present day" and she wouldn't have needed to possess other Sorceresses to get to Ellone in the first place and would have just possessed Ellone herself.

Ultimecia could not have possessed Edea at that point.


I believe that she is Ultimecia.

Based on what? If it's any of the things you've presented so far, then take into account how I'm refuting them all with in-game (canon) facts.



But to answer your question:Ultimecia is using Junction Machine Ellone.So she can use some sort of cassete tape to send its content through junction.Maybe she record a speech in the tape and put it on the machine to send.Maybe the machine receives visual signs from Squall´s era.So it is not implied that she uses it directly on her head.

Ultimecia's consciousness is sent into the past. That directly implies her mind being connected to this device in some way. Does it necessarily mean it's on her head? No. But that's irrelevant, as her mind is still connected to it.

For that matter, the term "Junction" is used. We see "Junction" used to refer to the Junctioning of oneself to a GF (something which causes those who Junction theirself to the GF to lose their memories over time with GF-usage, meaning it directly affects their mind), and Ultimecia Junctioning herself to Griever, with their bodies actually becoming an almagmation of Ultimecia and Griever, in which case there's still a strong connection present.



Concerning your question about Adel.Ultimecia was herself possessed by someone on the future(relative to Squall´s time).

Support this with in-game information. It's never implied by the game, though, so that will be impossible.



So I use the word "Ultimecia" to sustitute the name of this powerful being.The person who uses the cassete tape is not the "Ultimecia" from the game but a more powerful being.

Again, where's your in-game support for this?



And I didn´t said Ultimecia was Adel but True Ultimecia is (Ultimecia Transforms into Adel).

Except she doesn't. She transforms because she had gained the Sorceress Power of all the Sorceresses throughout history, something which the game tells us was her goal in using Time Compression:

(The Tutorial's description of Time Compression.)


Time Compression

A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have on regular human beings.
(Bolded for emphasis.)

(The description given when using Scan on Ultimecia when fighting her first form.)

A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power from all sorceresses.

(What Ultimecia says before the battle with her begins.)

"Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs."
"The price for your meddling is death beyond death."
"I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining."
"There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."
(Bolded for emphasis.)

(The information given when using Scan on Ultimecia's final form.)

Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing
all existence as we speak.

The game couldn't have made it much more obvious that Ultimecia's goal was to essentially become God by acquiring the power of all the Sorceresses in history, then using it to change time and the world itself to suit her. She transformed into that more powerful form because she had gained the power she sought and was then absorbing all existance to become God. It had absolutely nothing to do with Adel.

By the way, you completely ignored my points concerning Ellone's power only working in such a way as for her to send the consciousness of someone she knew in the present to someone she had known in the past, as well as my point that if Adel were killed in the past, she wouldn't have been around in the game's present.


At this point, I'm not so sure that I'll bother responding again if you can't offer some actual in-game support for your argument, as it's insulting to myself and anyone that you would try to carry a debate with to argue something with no support from the source material in question.

[Future Esthar]

But I know that Ultimecia wanna to take power from all the sorceresses on the past.4 sorceresses (including herself) and 4 Knights.But that gives origin to Adel.
Junction refers to telepatic waves.But it can exist without the mind.Probably the wavelenght stays outside of the limited spectrum we detect on our world but it is a regular photonic wave.It´s not something mystical.If X (codename of the person who possess Ultimecia) record her/his thoughts on a tape and sends it, X will only record simulated thoughts (thoughts that we create intentionaly).The natural thoughts will not be received by Edea.And you are wrong,Ultimecia uses Edea to convince Squall to go to Space,to tell Odine Edea was possessed (one day you will understand why by yourself.It´s a little obvious) and to prevent Zell from entering (deeply) the Pandora .By the way,she can this way deceive Seed on many forms.
I have already debated the issue of Edea being Ultimecia on another thread.
And some people don´t get insulted by my theories so there is no reason to post them (don´t read if you don´t wanna).

[SeeDRankLou]

And you are wrong,Ultimecia uses Edea to convince Squall to go to Space,to tell Odine Edea was possessed (one day you will understand why by yourself.It´s a little obvious) and to prevent Zell from entering (deeply) the Pandora .By the way,she can this way deceive Seed on many forms.
1) Squall going into space in no way helped Ultimecia. Ultimecia was using Rinoa to free Adel, Squall very easily could have stopped her if he tried (he didn't because it was Rinoa, but Squall has defeated a sorceress before). And Squall being in space only served to rescue Rinoa so that she could live to fight Ultimecia. Had Rinoa died, it wouldn't have mattered to Ultimecia after she performed time compression, she would have received her power anyways.

2) Edea went to Odine of her own free will to try and repress the powers she still had. She was willing to do whatever it took to be free from possible possession by Ultimecia again, even if that meant being locked in the Sorceress Memorial. None of this would have in any way aided Ultimecia.

3) I was under the impression that the Mobile Type 8 stopped Zell's pursuit into the Lunatic Pandora, which I imagine was put there by Seifer, knowing that his Balamb Garden friends would probably come and try to stop him.

Edea was weak after her fight with the SeeDs, and nothing that Edea did during disc 3 in any way would have aided Ultimecia, so I can't see how she was possibly still possessed. Not to mention, if she was still possessed I don't think she would have given the scoop about her master plan to Squall and company.

[Sir Bahamut]

Future Esthar, the problem with your speculation is that it's just that: unfounded speculation.

On the same basis, I could argue that Irvine is in fact Ultimecia. It's simple enough really. He was in fact a woman trapped in a mans body(his obsession with women isn't 'cause he's attracted to them), something which slowly drove him insane. He then kills Rinoa and takes her powers, which he then uses to transform himself into Ultimecia. He then goes completely bonkers and decides to compress time so that he can be a female sexgoddess for all eternity.

The theory I just presented has as much factual basis as your own theory.
So really, unless you actually back your theory up and refute the arguments Squall of SeeD used, your theory has as much validity as Irvine=Ultimecia.

By the way, Squall of SeeD disproved your theory with the fact that Ultimecia CAN'T be possessing Edea after disc 2, because Ultimecia can only possess sorceresses, and Edea lost all her powers at the end of disc 2. You conveniently ignored that bit though...

[Future Esthar]

To SeedRankLow
1)Ok,that´s right,I didn´t explain me well.Ultimecia used Edea to convince Squall to accept Odine´s condition´s (study Rinoa to let him see Ellone).
So Odine sent her to Space to let Piet take care of her (and Ulti take the chance to possess her).It was a way to force Squall to let Rinoa to Space.
Ultimecia´s true objective is to rule Esthar through Adel.(It doesn´t matter Galbadia or Centra,or the rest of the world.They were just used to fulfill her plans).
2)As I said,you will understand someday.(Think by yourself).
3)And I was under the impression that the magic used here was similar to the one she uses on Rinoa in the first disc in the Sorceress Room.


Edea was weak after her fight with the SeeDs, and nothing that Edea did during disc 3 in any way would have aided Ultimecia, so I can't see how she was possibly still possessed. Not to mention, if she was still possessed I don't think she would have given the scoop about her master plan to Squall and company.


Of course she would give the plan because that plan is a lie.It was given by X to protect his/her own plans.That is why X wanna to use Edea.It will not benefit Ultimecia but will protect the thruth.


By the way, Squall of SeeD disproved your theory with the fact that Ultimecia CAN'T be possessing Edea after disc 2, because Ultimecia can only possess sorceresses, and Edea lost all her powers at the end of disc 2. You conveniently ignored that bit though...

Another lie to protect the thruth.It was Edea who said that(and even as a researcher Odine can be deceived by Ultimecia as well).But if we assume Edea (still possessed by Ultimecia) lies then the assumption enables (didn´t guarantee,just enable) itself because maybe a sorceress don´t need sorceress powers to become a sorceress.
And I don´t really believe that a sorceress can pass her powers to others.In fact is the receiver who DRAWS it from the sender.
In that matter I don´t see why Quistis and Selphie couldn´t be considered sorceresses as well.

And Bahamut, if a theory concerning a story is not contradicted by the latter and has internal consistency then it is equaly valid (everything is thruth until it is refuted-Popper´s law).
It doesn´t matter if you don´t have proofs.This is a story,not a real event so proof´s can´t be found (with little exceptions).

[Sir Bahamut]

Another lie to protect the thruth.It was Edea who said that(and even as a researcher Odine can be deceived by Ultimecia as well).

Well, there's as much reason to believe this as there is to believe that Cid likes to dress up in womens clothes in his spare time. But I see it's been futile of me(and Squall) to try and get this across. Oh well.


But if we assume Edea (still possessed by Ultimecia) lies then the assumption enables (didn´t guarantee,just enable) itself because maybe a sorceress don´t need sorceress powers to become a sorceress.

Uh? A sorceress doesn't need sorceress powers to be a sorceress? Sorry, but that's a ridiculous statement. If you don't need powers to be a sorceress, we might as well EVERYONE in the game sorceresses. That's just silly. Of course you need sorceress powers to be a sorceress.


And I don´t really believe that a sorceress can pass her powers to others.In fact is the receiver who DRAWS it from the sender.

And I believe Rinoa is a man. Same justification, same plausibility.


In that matter I don´t see why Quistis and Selphie couldn´t be considered sorceresses as well.

Are you serious? Well, assuming you are in fact serious, this brings up a gaping plothole. If everyone without powers were also sorceresses, then Ultimecia should be able to posess anyone she wants to. YEt that is clearly not the case.

But really, I'm starting to see this is pointless.


And Bahamut, if a theory concerning a story is not contradicted by the latter and has internal consistency then it is equaly valid (everything is thruth until it is refuted-Popper´s law).
It doesn´t matter if you don´t have proofs.This is a story,not a real event so proof´s can´t be found (with little exceptions).

You're right, no 'proof's can be found, but a level of plausibility can still be established. And your theory has the same amount of plausibility as the Irvine=Ultimecia theory I presented. So I guess you think that the Irvine=Ultimecia theory is just as plausible as the Squall=Lagunas son thing?

If you can honestly say you consider those to be equally 'valid', then I'll stop all arguments. Oh, one more thing:


2)As I said,you will understand someday.(Think by yourself).

Sorry, but we won't understand someday'. Everyone but yourself can see how flawed and unplausible your theory is, so I think you'll be the one who understands someday. And really, what kind of a way is that to dodge arguing for your theory.

"No, I don't want to give any arguments based on ingame facts. Just trust me, and you'll get it one day though". Please.

[Future Esthar]

First:X don´t need to possess a sorceress he can possess any person with little memory(and so,little resistance to the possession).
Second:
Real definition of sorceress-Female Propagators that comes from the moon and ruled there over monsters.
They come to the Earth and brings the other inhabitants of the moon (monsters) with them.The male Propagators,knights,come with them.
There are many propagators,the white seeds,which come but the ones ruling over the moon were the real Seed´s.
Due to various circumstances they need to go to the Earth and takes a human form.
Reaching here they forms a monarchy and made their castle somewhere.People showed respect for them and they became kings of Centra.
The first propagators were Seifer(knight) and Edea(Sorceres).
The legend goes that the dinasty of Propagators will be formed by eight persons (4 generations) and this ones can become one entity with some magic.
It was then that many natural catastrophes happened caused by the lunar cry and the city of Centra was wiped out.Edea became the evil Sorceress Ultimecia and looks for the ch

[Shrub]

what does ultimecia look like and what does she look like fused with grieveer

[BackRoomKid]

this is what i have to say about this....

"...and"

[Masamune·1600]

Future Esthar, allow me to quote Titinius from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Alas, thou hast misconstrued everything."

You're obviously not being serious. Regardless of any in-game conspiracy theories you might hold, I stumbled across this while perusing the thread.


Real definition of sorceress-Female Propagators that comes from the moon and ruled there over monsters.
They come to the Earth and brings the other inhabitants of the moon (monsters) with them.The male Propagators,knights,come with them.
There are many propagators,the white seeds,which come but the ones ruling over the moon were the real Seed´s.
Due to various circumstances they need to go to the Earth and takes a human form.
Reaching here they forms a monarchy and made their castle somewhere.People showed respect for them and they became kings of Centra.
The first propagators were Seifer(knight) and Edea(Sorceres).

It's perfectly fine to debate creative theories, so long as you have something, anything, to back up your claims. However, the above conjectures are not based on any dialogue, appearance, or theme in the game. They also completely defy logic.

If the tone of this post sounds faintly belligerent, I apologize. However, I would point out that there are people who read these threads who are uncertain as to the actual dynamics of the plot. Usually, when someone initiates a rumor, it's clear that he or she doesn't take it seriously. There is nothing to suggest that in your posts, so I would request, if you do this in the "future", simply that you note that these are your own ideas, and are by no means associated with Final Fantasy VIII canon.

[rubah]

Real definition of sorceress-Female Propagators that comes from the moon and ruled there over monsters.

Wow. That's funny^_^

And here I was thinking that propogators were just malicious space beings that invaded a derelict rocketship.

If they were sorceresses, how come none of them were in league with ultimecia at her castle?

[Squall of SeeD]

I beg you not to provoke him, rubah. Rhetorical question or not, you know it's going to get a response.

[rubah]

But it can be so much fun:D

[Del Murder]

'...and stop linking me to that filrt Rinoa'

[Delta]

"And" is signal for an instant death timer or so my friend tell's me.

He said that he was fighting her and then she said "And" and after a couple of minutes (where he still hadn't killed her weak fool) she used "Apocylpse" which killed him instanly.

She used apoclypse on me before and I didn't need to wait for "And" and it didn't kill me either.

So anyway I think it's just a signal that she's about to die.