Examples of Facts over Dialogues.

[Future Esthar]

This is a continuation from my last reply to the thread "Seifer in the DISCIPLINARY WTF !! "


Dialogue

President Deling is dead.

Facts

The eyes of the president blinks.We see it when Squall passes over his
body.So he isn´t.

Dialogue

Ultimecia comes from the future.

Facts

Then I imagine Ultimecia floating on an improved version of Galbadia Garden instead of a castle.Or do you think the Esthar and Galbadia
soldiers are so strong that it was impossible to take over the world without bombing all the places?

Dialogue

Esthar is the only country with a holographic barrier around
(this is not a dialogue but an apparent fact.But i call it a dialogue because it an idea itself).

Facts

Why then in the second dream when Laguna jumped from the cliff it seems like he hit an invisible wall.Do you ever asked why the birds turn its direction at some point on the FMV at the balcony when the Garden starts flying?We know there weren´t glasses on the balcony so these hezagonal colorful reflections comes from where?

It continues.

[SeeDRankLou]

Facts

The eyes of the president blinks.We see it when Squall passes over his
body.So he isn´t.
Fact

The body can still spasm and seizure for about 30 mintues after death, sometimes longer, due to electrical impulses still being processed in your body, so President Deling could very well have been dead.


Then I imagine Ultimecia floating on an improved version of Galbadia Garden instead of a castle.Or do you think the Esthar and Galbadia
soldiers are so strong that it was impossible to take over the world without bombing all the places?
Maybe she's old fashioned. A castle is a time held symbol of someone with supreme power.


Why then in the second dream when Laguna jumped from the cliff it seems like he hit an invisible wall.Do you ever asked why the birds turn its direction at some point on the FMV at the balcony when the Garden starts flying?We know there weren´t glasses on the balcony so these hezagonal colorful reflections comes from where?
Mmmmm....he didn't jump off the cliff, he slipped, and because he slipped he didn't get enough forward propulsion and hit the side of the cliff. And maybe the birds changed direction because they were going to fly into the the buildings in Balamb if they didn't. Or maybe they weren't flying fast enough and didn't want to get hit by the garden. And maybe the colorful relections are, well, reflections. The garden seemed pretty shiny in some places, and the light reflecting off of that could very easily do that. I'd say bravo to the graphics people for that little detail.

[Wiegrahf42]

Just to supplement what Lou said, Deling may have died afterward.

[Squall of SeeD]

Generally when entitling a document "Facts," one's going to want it to contain facts. That's not the case here, Future.


Dialogue

President Deling is dead.

Facts

The eyes of the president blinks.We see it when Squall passes over his
body.So he isn´t.

Sadly, a screenshot of Vinzer Deling's lifeless body is one thing I don't have. I need to look into getting one. Despite that, we see Ultimecia use Edea's body to skewer him and then burn his body. It was fairly indicative of a fatal assault.

For that matter, Deling is spoken of as being dead on no less than two occasions thereafter:

(Squall to Mayor Dobe.)

Mayor Dobe
"Let's not panic. President Deling and I are acquaintances. I'll go talk to
them and work things out."

Squall
"President Deling is dead."
"Galbadia is now ruled by the sorceress."

(Random NPC in Galbadia.)

Man
"That guy just talked the talk. He never walked the walk. He was such a greedy bastard."
"Yeah it's terrible he got killed like that, but I think he deserved it."

Nothing ever contradicts the indication that Deling was dead. Also, seeing as how Ultimecia was obviously trying to kill him and she then ruled Galbadia, don't you think she would then be able to make sure he was dead if he wasn't by having him shot full of holes or something to that effect?

In the event that his body was blinking for whatever reason, there's the point that SeeDRankLou brought up about spasms brought on by synapses continuing to fire even after someone is killed. Even if he was somehow not killed instantly, he would have likely died from such wounds shortly thereafter.



Dialogue

Ultimecia comes from the future.

Facts

Then I imagine Ultimecia floating on an improved version of Galbadia Garden instead of a castle.

So you imagined it. I fail to see why it's a fact, or why her use of a castle indicates that she's in a past era. As I've brought up in another Thread, Ellone's power worked by sending the consciousness of someone she knew in the present into someone she knew in the past. The Junction Machine Ellone device used by Ultimecia simulated this ability. In other words, it was sending her consciousness into the past. There's never anything to indicate that she was not from the future.

By the way, there are dead SeeDs on the beach below Ultimecia's Castle. SeeDs. There were no SeeDs in the past. Edea is informed of the concepts of SeeD and Garden when Squall is four years old.



Or do you think the Esthar and Galbadia
soldiers are so strong that it was impossible to take over the world without bombing all the places?

...What? What use has she for their technology if she prefers a castle and can use Magic to have a bloody castle that floats? For that matter, you don't know that she's not using the levitation technology implemented in the Gardens to make it float.



Dialogue

Esthar is the only country with a holographic barrier around
(this is not a dialogue but an apparent fact.But i call it a dialogue because it an idea itself).

Facts

Why then in the second dream when Laguna jumped from the cliff it seems like he hit an invisible wall.Do you ever asked why the birds turn its direction at some point on the FMV at the balcony when the Garden starts flying?We know there weren´t glasses on the balcony so these hezagonal colorful reflections comes from where?

It continues.

As SeeDRankLou said, Laguna slips. The sudden break in Laguna's dialogue followed by exclamation points and a scream should have conveyed this:


Laguna
"You guys...sure have guts. You know how high this cliff is...!?"

Laguna
"Oh...sh...!"
"...No way..."
"AHHHH!!!"


As for the Garden and the gulls, the gulls don't change direction. When we're first shown the gulls, it's from the perspective of being on the balcony, meaning the gulls are flying to the left of the screen: Balcony perspective: Gulls are flying to the left of the screen (http://img132.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img132&image=gullsflyingtotheleft9ln.jpg).

The perspective then changes to one looking at the Garden, meaning the Garden's left is now our right, this being why the gulls appear to be flying to the right now. From the balcony's perspective, they would still be flying to the left:
Open air perspective: Gulls are flying to the right of the screen (http://img132.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img132&image=gullsflyingtotheright9uw.jpg).
Open air perspective 2: Closer shot of the balcony with the gulls still flying to the right of the screen, though the balcony's left (http://img99.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img99&image=gullsflyingtotheright25fx.jpg).

By the way, I don't know what reflection you're talking about, and I just watched the FMV a couple of times to try to ascertain what you mean. If you see one, it's more than likely due to the shiny surface of the Garden.

Esthar is the only place surrounded by a cloaking field.

[Doomgaze]

Oh, give it up. Future Esthar's never let on what is "genius" secret theory that explains all of FF8 is. He only makes snide little hints at it and chuckles to himself that you don't understand.

[Future Esthar]

Conclusion:I don´t really proved my assertions but you don´t prove the opposite.

[Camanche]

Um, as for President Deling being dead, did anyone ever think it's possible that when the creators used the model of President Deling's body, that when they left him laying on the ground, they just didn't "turn off" the "blinking animation" that ALL characters have? I find it quite unreasonable to think he is not dead. He was a plot device basically, and was killed off because he was supposed to be.

Alot of these other things don't seem plausible either. Why would Square add dialogue to characters if it was just false? Doesn't make sense. They're not going to have NPC's have intentionally false dialogue, when you might not even talk to them anyway. The NPC's are usually there to provide extra info about the game if you take the effort to talk to them. Again, why would Square have ANY character state something that is false in the game, unless it is intentionally supposed to be false, and a lie?

[Future Esthar]

Alot of these other things don't seem plausible either. Why would Square add dialogue to characters if it was jsut false? Doesn't make sense. They're not going to have NPC's have intentionally false dialogue, when you migt not even talk to them anyway. The NPC's are usually there to provide extra info aboutthe game if you take the effort to talk to them. Again, why would Square have ANY character state something that is false in the game, unless it is intentionally supposed to be false, and a lie?

Oh yeah?

Galbadia announce that Seifer was dead.
We later discover Seifer was dead.

So they did it.
Not all person lies.Only the bad ones,the possessed ones and sometimes people tell what they heard from untruth sources and inacurate experiments.

Mmmmm....he didn't jump off the cliff, he slipped, and because he slipped he didn't get enough forward propulsion and hit the side of the cliff.

I know.But then he hits on something(his entire body is seen on mid air when it happens).It was quick and maybe Square intend it to (he wanna us to play the game many times to solve it.It adds fun to the game).


Generally when entitling a document "Facts," one's going to want it to contain facts. That's not the case here, Future.

"Facts" stands for imagery and subtle events.



Despite that, we see Ultimecia use Edea's body to skewer him and then burn his body. It was fairly indicative of a fatal assault.

No,Edea used one of the progressive healing magics the characters use (don´t remember the name).She first hurts Deling and then used that magic.That way she
and Deling deceived the Galbadians.


For that matter, Deling is spoken of as being dead on no less than two occasions thereafter:

I know. That´s why I call it a dialogue.The purpose of the thread is to contradict the veracity of the dialogues.


By the way, there are dead SeeDs on the beach below Ultimecia's Castle. SeeDs. There were no SeeDs in the past. Edea is informed of the concepts of SeeD and Garden when Squall is four years old.

But if one assume Edea is lying about Ultimecia coming from the future she will also tell lies to complement it.X is very clever.


For that matter, you don't know that she's not using the levitation technology implemented in the Gardens to make it float.

Of course she is.Her castle became the Garden foundation.Isn´t it obvious? That´s why Headmaster Cid don´t know the mecanism.
This issue can show(even if it is not a proof) that Ultimecia lives on the past.
You will discover something interesting about the Garden if you discover the real meaning of the clock tower.


Also, seeing as how Ultimecia was obviously trying to kill him and she then ruled Galbadia, don't you think she would then be able to make sure he was dead if he wasn't by having him shot full of holes or something to that effect?

That´s exactly the matter.She don´t wanna to kill DElINg.She can´t even rule Galbadia with him dead.

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry Future Esthar, but your 'theory' is a bunch of crap and you know it.
There's not a single user here that thinks even a single of your arguments is at all good. So just give it up. If thinking that we simply don't get it makes you feel good about yourself, by all means.

But you're just driving everyone else insane with this nonsense.

[Zante]

So what you are triing to say is that there is another cloaked country in the game?

One other thing, Ultimeca's castle isn't in the real future, but in the future created due to the time compersion.

[Future Esthar]

There are about 8 cloaked lands in the game.
Esthar,Galbadia,Winhill,Centra,Trabia+Balamb,Grandidi+Mordred,a triangular area around FH and an area around the Deep Sea Research Center.
There is even a general mapping of the wall system.You can found it inside the Esthar wall when you select the option "Color check".
It´s an hezagonal picture divided in 6 colourful polygons and a black triangle on the middle.
You just don´t see the walls because they were holographical.
It´s impossible to find them on foot because they are on the deep sea.
In Winhill it cross the river near the sea and then when the river turns around it glues to the mountain.
There is one on the Trabia hole separating the Trabia+Balamb and Mordred+Grandidi areas.The Garden can´t overpass this one.
Much more examples can be given.
There is no such a thing as Time Compression.There is WOTC.
What we see is the holographic walls of the Pandora showing random images.You know,if you pay close attention to the places on the Pandora you will see that there is a big hole under Adel´s tomb.You can see it from one of the outer tubes below Adel´s floor (before the fight with Seifer).The nearest tube to Seifer´s room is right below Adel´s tomb.There must be some trap hole inside Adel´s room.It was all created by the Galbadians.
I believe that even Ulti´s castle was enclosed in the Pandora on the past.I will provide good evidence for it soon.

Hey Bahamut,there are people who don´t mind with my theories.If don´t like,don´t bother.
Simple.

[Camanche]

Oh yeah?
Galbadia announce that Seifer was dead.
We later discover Seifer was dead.

So they did it.
Not all person lies.Only the bad ones,the possessed ones and sometimes people tell what they heard from untruth sources and inacurate experiments.


Um, sorry, but... What?

I've been actually trying to make an effort to understand what you mean, or see the validity behind some of your theories, but your response here barely makes sense to me.

If this was already asked in this thread, I'm sorry for repeating it, but, is English your native language?

Now as for what you are saying. They reported that Seifer was executed but he WASN'T executed, nor was he dead. Ever. We see him fishing in Balamb at the end of the game. And we fight him, at least twice I believe (I know once for sure), after his supposed 'execution'.

And, unless I have mistakened what you meant, I believe the fact that you are trying to contradict my point is fruitless. The lie of Seifer's execution was an INTENTIONAL lie, and part of the plot. It wasn't just a doof on the creator's part, who thought: "Hey, lets execute Seifer near the beginning of the game!", who then made the numerous scenes refering to it, but "accidentally" left them in, even though they ended up deciding that Seifer does not truly get executed.

If Square was in the habit of stating false information in the game that only leaves plot holes, and makes no sense, then maybe some of what you were saying would be possible. Especially considering that if Square puts completely false, plot-hole ridden information in their games, then anything is possible if you say "Well maybe...".

Unfortunately, most arguments against you are backed up by clear facts, and statements from the game. Statements that are 'true' in the world of FFVIII. I don't generally think it is a good idea to assume that half the things the characters are spouting are intentionally false information. Theories need to be backed up with solid, solid facts. Not speculation that makes it seem like one is grasping at straws.

Sorry if I seem offensive, I really don't mean to be, but I think that it might be a good idea look at the solid facts more closely, and not assume that it's all false in order to back up these theories.

This is a video game, it is NOT full of conspiracy theories that are DEEPLY and impossibly hidden in the game, and are only revealed when we ignore all facts and logic that is presented within the game. The colour check system before you enter Esthar is simply to do just that, CHECK THE COLOURS that the holographic projection is able to produce, and is producing. It doesn't really mean anything. Just like how going through the Balamb Garden Desk panel doesn't mean a whole lot (other then to get your first GF's). It's just interactive electronics added to help a player understand some of the nuances in the FFVIII world. (ie Some of the history behind Garden, how it functions, its rules, or how that holographic system works. That's all these interactions are for.)

As for telling someone to "not bother" if they don't like your theories, I think that is a bit much. He has ever right to question and debate the legitimacy of your theories as you have to post them. There's a difference between "not liking something", and simply providing a rebuttal to seemingly false evidence. Though in this case, I think they may be one and the same. :p

I may like the idea if someone told me that a single cure for all diseases has been made, but if this claim is made on nothing but the idea of conspiracy theories and the like, then I am more then likely to counter the person's argument with information that is fact. (That no one and single cure can fix all diseases simply because of their varied nature, classification and types of treatments, etc.)

So, I think you have a right to develop your theories until the moon is blue, but the truly classy thing to do would be to not continue clamouring on about a particular theory if it has, beyond all reasonable doubt, been proven false by another forum member. If you can't accept someone showing you otherwise, then it's the same thing as posting in a thread all by yourself.

[Future Esthar]

Actualy I can PROVE that the "color check" thing relates to the world map.You just need to activate the world map in the field and note the similarities between the diferent lands and the polygons in the logo model(it´s dificult due to the irregularity of the shape of the continents but with time you will get it.).One need to rotate(mentally) the model in order to match it with the map.If one performs probabilistic calculations on this event one would find the probability to be very little.And that´s as far as I can go to show.If you can´t believe in "little probability" events then tell me.We can assume with little error that the map match the logo.

[Camanche]

I don't see how that proves anything.

Square did not waste their time making up these kinds of things and putting them into the game so that by ignoring all logic and by imagining and stretching out a map in our minds, we could magically see and understand the Big, Deep, Secret FFVIII World Conspiracy Theory.

Rarely do you have firm logic, and factual evidence to back up your points, theorys, etc. I think you can imagine and make up and piece out all the ideas you want, but again, I say:


The truly classy thing to do would be to not continue clamouring on about a particular theory if it has, beyond all reasonable doubt, been proven false by another forum member. If you can't accept someone showing you otherwise, then it's the same thing as posting in a thread all by yourself.

Pardon me if this sounds rude, but it sounds like you are completely ignoring everything anyone says to you, and you just keep on posting your illogic. Talking to yourself man, talking to yourself.

Also, is English your native language?

EDIT: Actually, I just kind of thought. You're not actually serious about all of this are you? This is just a big joke. At least I certainly hope it is. :p

[Future Esthar]

Oh,man,you did everything but to discuss the proof itself.I bet you didn´t test what I told you to test,BUT I ALREADY DID.AND I USED A MATHEMATICAL ARGUMENT,PROBABILITIES to help state the accuracy of the theory.I am not ignoring anything because i am providing proof that no other member denied yet.So I am not violating your little quotation.
English is not my native language and this is no joke :mad2: .
Get to a Playstation/Computer and play the game to verify the proof instead of making fun of other theoryes.Maybe you will see the accuracy of the match.You need to mentally rotate the color check picture until the middle triangle match the triangular water area around FH.
Don´t you know that you can fit a set of points with a mathemathical function you choose using the Qui-Square approximation method?In this method there is a parameter that represents the average error of all the points to the function.The lesser the value of this parameter the better the approximation.Thinking I am joking yet?

[Squall of SeeD]

Camanche, I thought we had already established that ignoring Future when he goes on these spiels was the best course of action. Feeding him only makes him more hungry. Trust me. Run.

[Camanche]

Yes I am sorry. I guess I should take my own advice. *scratches back of neck*

I will say one last thing though. In my personal opinion, I don't think Square would put that level of mathematics into the game for something that could easily be skipped. And I will not back this up because it is merely my own personal opinion.

And also, I sincerely apologize for thinking you were joking, as I see you mean all of this quite seriously. Take care and have a nice day, well.... night, depending on where you are. :)

[BackRoomKid]

it took me like 20 minutes to read a few of these comments....wow, interesting stuff...but yea, some of these things may just be errors in animation...so yeah...lol, i'm so lost

[Camanche]

Join the club, BackRoomKid.:p