Important news.

[Big D]

I've been moderating this forum since 2003, and in all that time nothing has compelled me to breach the trust of my fellow staffers by discussing staff matters publicly. However, things have been getting out of hand in recent days, and now they've just gone too far for me to tolerate.

Yesterday, Kawaii Ryukishi was banned from EoFF for posting an inappropriate image. He was banned, just as any other member would have been. It was a huge shock and a disappointment to us all, but the rules are the rules, and those rules are here for the overall good of the forum. Kishi, for whatever reason, compromised those rules and compromised the integrity of EoFF as a whole.

Now, however, he has been un-banned and reinstated as a moderator. Not by a staff consensus, and not because his image was deemed acceptable - he was re-modded because of his 'importance' and 'status' as an EoFF stalwart from the past. I want it to be known that the majority of staff disagree strongly with this action, and we want to make this public in the hope of forcing some responsibility from those others who care more about 'personalities' than about the guidlines and standards that made this place great.

Moderators cannot ban moderators; only admins have that power. Those of us who are dedicated to decency are powerless to act.

Pornography has been one of the most serious and controversial issues ever to face EoFF; for that reason, I felt it necessary to bring this to the attention of those who are effected most - the regular members of Eyes on Final Fantasy.

[Raistlin]

I agree with you, D. I wish you could see my LJ arguments. *goes to find your LJ name*

[m4tt]

This is complete bull<img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif><img src=http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif> if you ask me. I agree with you 100%, D. I can't believe this.

[Psychotic]

There seriously needs to be a clarification on the rules regarding posting inappropriate images. And also I think there needs to be a list of those who have "importance" and "status", so we know who can get away with anything.

[m4tt]

This place has gone to hell, what a waste of time.

[Agent Proto]

Not that I really care, but what Kishi has done, he should have stayed banned, and maybe replaced. *hint hint* (xD j/k I'm not really too interested in returning any time soon after almost a year)

Anyway, I think it should be best to leave Kishi banned and say that I agree with Big D 100%.

[Raistlin]

There seriously needs to be a clarification on the rules regarding posting inappropriate images. And also I think there needs to be a list of those who have "importance" and "status", so we know who can get away with anything.
...I love you, Psy. I couldn't have worded that better myself.

[Strider]

This shouldn't be about "status" or "personality" at all. Let's say I were to do the exact same thing, I'd get banned, wouldn't I?

It's a big crock, in my opinion. Just because he's been around longer, or the fact that he's a moderator, or whatever else factored into the decision... that doesn't mean Kishi is above the rules that you placed to keep every other member in check.

[Flamethrower]

http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1014344&postcount=162


I'd ban anyone for posting porn, including CURRENT staff, with the exception of Sean. I'd expect to be banned myself if necessary.

[Rye]

EoFF has been pretty wacky lately.

EDIT: I agree with you guys on this one.

[Raistlin]

This is an absolute disgrace. I thank Big D for being brave enough to post this.

[Psychotic]

This is an absolute disgrace. I thank Big D for being brave enough to post this.Absolutely, Big D has probably forfeited his CK position and I admire his integrity. I also admire Lord Krang's integrity too, even though we have not seen eye to eye in the past.

So, EVERYONE loved Peter, you all saw from the sigs that we had. When is he going to be unbanned?

[Kirobaito]

I've few and far between even really noticed Kishi on the forums that much, perhaps because he posts in the gaming forums so much.

However, he comes on #eoff regularly now, and thus, his banning from here would not affect me that much.

That said, I pretty much agree with everyone else here. As much as I love the guy, he's certainly not above the rules and if Peter was not unbanned for his violation, there is absolutely no reason that Kishi should be unbanned for intentionally posting that could only be thought of as inappropriate.

I really do applaud Big D for speaking out about this. Good luck to those staff members who choose to fight this.

EDIT: Oh, right, I also applaud Matt. Sorry. :/ What he just did took a lot of guts, and hopefully his decision will help to resolve this issue, by showing exactly what's it's like to...okay, I can't come up with a way to say this. Just, I'm very impressed by Matt.

I hate to do this to Kishi, but it's true.

[Big D]

There seriously needs to be a clarification on the rules regarding posting inappropriate images. And also I think there needs to be a list of those who have "importance" and "status", so we know who can get away with anything.Hopefully it won't come to that. I'll wait and see what 'the other half' of this particular dispute has to say, in this thread.

[Raistlin]

What other side? From what I've heard and read, it's one person.

[m4tt]

You'd be suprised.

[Rye]

What other side? From what I've heard and read, it's one person.

Yeah, I have a feeling there will be more than one person.

[strawberryman]

I completly agree. No one should get above the rules.
We should all be treated equally, and punished equally.

[Leeza]

Well, I'm one of the Staffers that totally disagrees with this, but my arguments didn't seem to go very far. I am extremely disappointed in this decision, especially after I had to ban HOOTERS and take all of that flak for banning Peter and not banning Bert. Yes, Kishi is EoFF, but that shouldn't put him above any other member in cases like this. This is the straw that's going to break my back.

I'm leaving Staff because of this (actually, there are a few other reasons as well, but I won't go into those here) and the only reason I'm posting that decision in this thread is so that everyone knows exactly why I'm doing it so no one has to wonder about why I left. No Former Staff title for me please because that would just be a mockery.

[Raistlin]

Leeza: you and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I truly admire you for this.

[Daryl]

This completely pisses me off. I've banned him twice now, and see he is unbanned again. Now, anyone who knows me at all knows I love Kishi as much as the next person. But rules are rules, and porn is porn. I don't care who would have posted it, I'd've banned them, and kept them banned.

Since apparently EoFF is porn-savvy now, I should go dig out my collection.

[Rye]

Yeah, I really am admiring what everyone is doing.

[strawberryman]

Of course, this makes me worry for the reputation and future of the forums. I'd hate for them to go to hell just like that. :(

[MecaKane]

Kishi's better than you.

[Trumpet Thief]

chaos: I agree with pretty much agree with everything that has already been said. i have a lot of respect for Kishi, (And a lot of other banned members as well) but if you break the rules, you're gone. Simple as that, right?

Rubedo: Meh, I'm not going to go on with that whole "disgusted" tarade. It's just a forum, after all.

[MecaKane]

What about Bert? Or Gokufusions? If dumbasses can not get banned for worse things than a picture by a renowned anime artist, what's wrong with Kishi? You have to prove you're not biased? Great, that's even worse.

[Raistlin]

Everyone on staff admitted that Bert was a mistake, and that he should have been banned. I don't know about the other guy.

EDIT: I'd also just like to point out that staff doesn't have to "prove" anything - they <i>are</i>, well at least are supposed to be, unbiased and objective, and apply the rules fairly and equally for all members.

[MecaKane]

He's not banned, though.
Neither is Kishi. Problem solved.

[Agent Proto]

Gokufusion posted a link to an "educational" site about puberty. It was iffy.

And Kane, you know that Kishi deserves to get banned like everyone else who posted porn. Bert only got away because staff failed to ban him.

[Raistlin]

He's not banned, though.
Neither is Kishi. Problem solved.
Hardly. What about all those others banned for inappropriate images?

Proto just explained Goku. I'd also like to point out that Kishi <i>wasn't</i> banned for a similar instance a long time ago when he linked to a seanbaby page which had porn on it. EDIT: According to BoB. Kishi says he doesn't remember this.

Bert "slipped through the cracks"(Leeza's words, I believe), not because of who he was, but just because he did. Kishi should be not acquitted just because of who he is.

The issue should be judged on the facts, the "merits of the case" as the legal system puts it, and not because of who the person is who did it.

[Miriel]

Right.

Question, does Kishi even want to be unbanned after all this commotion?

[Kirobaito]

That's one of the things I fear most about this ordeal, Miriel. Kishi may not want to be unbanned, and I would like to say that, if that was the case, this entire issue would be pointless. However, after the events of today, there is no turning back.

[Mr. Graves]

I wanna post a snow penis.

Also, Kishi unbanned: Yay.

[Yamaneko]

I can see Shlup's reasoning. It's not like we've been 100% correct on all bannings. Even the law allows a fair amount of leeway. And it's not like Kishi did it to "take the easy way out", which seems to be the perception. I can see this as an honest mistake by an individual who has proven himself a brilliant and exemplary member of this community for the past four plus years.

[-N-]

Well, this seems to be a pretty one-sided thread, so I'm going to cut through this largely outrage-based posting. Yeah, I guess I'm being outrageous myself. But seriously, let's all get over ourselves for a second and consider some things.

1. What are you going to do about this? There's been a serious trend concerning ambiguity over posting obscene material here at EoFF, and this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Resigning from being a CK or Admin is a good way to express yourself, but I'm not sure if it really amounts to much more. I've been around over four years and this doesn't feel any different from the usual drama and hocus-pocus surrounding events that happen here. I have some solutions that have come off the top of my head here, and am listing them here for discussion.
a. Porn forum that is locked unless your birthday is valid.
b. Relax the rules to implement a warning system for porn.
c. Continue being in/consistent in implementation of rules.

2. Outrage: The only outrage I really see is from the staff. Which makes a lot of frickin' sense to me, because Kishi was reinstated not only as a member, but as a moderator. Most of the posts from regulars here amount to no more than "Yeah, he broke the no porn rule, but I didn't see it anyways, so whatever," or of course "Where's Peter?" Point is, people are going to see some CKs and Admin's resigning, say "Hey, way to stand up", express some distaste, but aren't going to do anything themselves. Maybe they'll say "I hate this place" and stop posting for a day or two, or maybe that'll be all they post. I'm not a mind reader, but I feel that aside from random "Unban Peter" or "Ban Kishi" statements in sigs, it's not going to amount to much more. There are two options I see here, neither of which seem appetizing:
a. Inflate the outrage until a large majority of the boards vote to ban Kishi.
b. Treat it as similar cases have been treated in the past - it never happened.
Ideally, this issue won't simply be washed over and some announcement will be made in General Chat addressing the issue. Naturally, it's tough to decide on a stance, but not dealing with it, or running away (as I interpret resignation from power), will only ensure the eventuality of another circus happening in the future. If the people in power aren't willing to face the issue, why are they in power? Aren't they the leaders and overall identity of the boards? I feel no qualms in defining the essence of the board to be who is on staff. I would hope the staff confronts this issue, comes clean with what exactly did and did not happen, and resolves this issue or resolves their policies such that there is no further inconsistency.

3. Cut the "I like Kishi" crap. Knowing him, I'm sure he doesn't want to hear how much people adore him and then bitch about what just happened. I'm not condemning expressing feelings about the situation, but I am condemning expression of said feelings interfering with just and clear-minded decision making. Whether that leads the people in power to banning him, removing him from moderation, presenting the situation to the entire board, sweeping the situation under the rug, or whatever else the people in power decide to do, let it be so.

I believe in an oligarchy, but leaders in an oligarchy don't quit.

I appreciate this thread being reopened for discussion.

[Raistlin]

I can see Shlup's reasoning. It's not like we've been 100% correct on all bannings. Even the law allows a fair amount of leeway. And it's not like Kishi did it to "take the easy way out", which seems to be the perception. I can see this as an honest mistake by an individual who has proven himself a brilliant and exemplary member of this community for the past four plus years.
Ah, so once you passed a certain point, you can make a "mistake" such as this? Then we need to do as Psy says: <i>And also I think there needs to be a list of those who have "importance" and "status", so we know who can get away with anything.</i>

It's wrong, Yams. You told me once at FG that you were glad to have Divina back when she was unbanned, because she was your friend and you weren't on staff at the time, so you could have the benefit of being biased. You don't now.

[MecaKane]

The picture Kishi posted wasn't nearly as explicit as that "educational" site gokufusions posted.
It was suggestive, at worst, no nudity that wouldn't make it to a PG movie, it wasn't even two humans.

[Raistlin]

The picture Kishi posted wasn't nearly as explicit as that "educational" site gokufusions posted.
It was suggestive, at worst, no nudity that wouldn't make it to a PG movie, it wasn't even two humans.
That's not the issue, Kane. The issue is that if you, for instance, had posted that image, you'd be banned without any of this staff discussion.

[Psychotic]

And it's not like Kishi did it to "take the easy way out", which seems to be the perception. I can see this as an honest mistake by an individual who has proven himself a brilliant and exemplary member of this community for the past four plus years.OK, so where's the difference between Kishi's situation and Peter's? Why does Kishi get away scot free and not Peter?

[Raistlin]

Because apparently staff has discretion on who's deserving and who's not, despite everything they've said for the past 5 years.

[eestlinc]

EoFF has some serious house-cleaning to do.

[Agent Proto]

Peter made an honest mistake himself too. He had no intention to post the picture of a girl licking snow-balls, yet he got banned and stayed banned. Kishi made a similar honest mistake too, yet he gets unbanned after being banned..

Same concept here. Why Kishi was unbanned is beyond any reason besides being "important to EoFF," and that's very wrong. If Kishi stays unbanned, then I suggest that the porn = insta-ban policy be changed.

However, I won't support a change, because rules are to be followed, and no one should be made an exemption if they broke the rules.

[strawberryman]

EoFF has some serious house-cleaning to do.
You can say that again.

[Yamaneko]

I'm not saying, "oh, unban Kishi", but I am saying that we shouldn't crucify Shlup for her decision. Matt and Leeza seem to me to have "taken the easy way out" because discussion in staff is still going on. We're waiting to hear from Shlup. It wasn't very professional of them to just walk out before hearing her out. It's only fair.

[VampireCrono]

No one should ever be unbanned because they are "favored", or are the "most popular." If you break the rules, you violate your agreement, and thus you must be banned from EoFF, or else the agreement and rules are forfeit. Since Kishi is unbanned, I guess I can post porn, but be unbanned by certain admins because of my status on IRC. No one is above the law. Rules were placed originally to keep order, so that life can go on in a normal way. Sure some rules may be unethical, or immoral, but they are there so that things like this don't happen. Too bad. Maybe we need to recycle the admins, bring the ones back that seemed to be most ethical, and put in new ones that everyone trusts?

[Knox]

Ah, so once you passed a certain point, you can make a "mistake" such as this? Then we need to do as Psy says: <i>And also I think there needs to be a list of those who have "importance" and "status", so we know who can get away with anything.</i>

It's wrong, Yams. You told me once at FG that you were glad to have Divina back when she was unbanned, because she was your friend and you weren't on staff at the time, so you could have the benefit of being biased. You don't now.

I - personally - see a difference between someone of no or questionable character joining a forum and posting pornography versus someone renowned for their pornography refraining for 4 or so years and slipping up.

Rules are made to be enforced by anyone with common sense. No, it's not excusable, but Kishi's actions do not call for draconian rebuttal. Not my issue - I'll stay out of it - just two cents worth...

Knox

PS: Raistlin, I thought you might like my usage of the word draconian. :( Even if you don't agree with me. :(

[Raistlin]

I'm not saying, "oh, unban Kishi", but I am saying that we shouldn't crucify Shlup for her decision. Matt and Leeza seem to me to have "taken the easy way out" because discussion in staff is still going on. We're waiting to hear from Shlup. It wasn't very professional of them to just walk out before hearing her out. It's only fair.
I agree that quitting is the easy way out. I agree that, in the vast majority of cases, it's not the right thing. I agree that the mods who did resign could have dealt with this in a better way. However, I also understand how they feel, and I remember at FG how many times I longed to just quit - how can I belittle them that?

EDIT:

Knox - it has been a policy of EoFF since the board was made to have an "instaban porn" policy, which has been valiently attempted to apply fairly and equally for the past 5 or so years. Yes, with some mistakes.

What we're arguing here is that if anyone else posted that image, then they'd be banned without all this fuss. However, because he's Kishi, some members on staff don't want to ban him. We're just saying: that's wrong. Rules that are meant to apply to everyone should apply to everyone.

[MecaKane]

Since Kishi is unbanned, I guess I can post porn, but be unbanned by certain admins because of my status on IRC.
xD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VampireCrono]

:D?

[Kirobaito]

because of my status on IRC.
Not a good card to play.

[Psychotic]

I - personally - see a difference between someone of no or questionable character joining a forum and posting pornography versus someone renowned for their pornography refraining for 4 or so years and slipping up.I can understand basically what you're saying (I don't agree with it, but still), so where exactly do you draw the line? Someone who has been there for 6 months? 12 months? Posted 200 times? How is the average member to know whether or not they can break the rules without retribution?

To any Staff member: Can I post the image that Kishi did without being banned? What other rules am I allowed to break? I'd like to know where I stand, as do many other members, I'm sure.

[MecaKane]

Let me do up a diagram for you.
-Kishi
-
-
-BoB
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-Everyone else
And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Raistlin]

Yes. I, too, would like to know how far I could go without being banned. How graphic an image could I post?

[VampireCrono]

I don't care if it's a good card to play. I was using a bad analogy because I could not think of something better.

[Mr. Graves]

Like Phychotic, I'd also like to view this "horrible" picture, just because.

I legitamitely can't take an real side to the argument on if Kishi's banning was appropriate or not, until I see what the offense exactly was.

[-N-]

Looks like my post was too long to bother reading. :p

[VampireCrono]

Yeah it pretty much was. Sorry.:\

[-N-]

:exdee:

[crono_logical]

Psychotic: No you can't post the image :p While it's possibly borderline (which is one of the main problems - and that's one of the things we're still debating) - if we decide in the end it's banworthy, what happens to you? :p Exchange it privately if you must :p

[Raistlin]

Taken from my LJ:


"I would ban my best friend if he broke the rules." - Daniel

"Carelessness is a choice as much as deliberately doing something wrong. We're all responsible for our own actions." - Unne

"Post porn, get banned. Proto, I think you know well enough that if you posted a picture like that, you would be banned. So would I. So would anyone." - RSL

"So, what if a Cid's Knight, or Administrator posted a similar picture that Peter posted, would the staff demote them and ban them for that?" - Proto, to Leeza

"Yes." - Leeza's reply, to Proto

"The only person exempt from the rules would be Sean." - RSL

"If I was in his position then I would probably say "oh crap, that was dumb of me" and go to one of the other 3 million message boards on the internet to get my net fix." -RSL

"Post porn, get banned. Seems pretty simple to me." - Yams

"In my eyes everyone here has the same chance to get banned. There are no "good members"." - Yams

"Once a decision is made, we stick with it. That's consistency." - Unne

"However, if policy changes and people are allowed a "second chance" for accidental posting of pornography/inappropriate imagery, then we're sending a message that it's quite all right to post it, provided it's only done once. Anyone with a chip on his or her shoulder could "inadvertently" post something objectionable and expect to get away with it. If PeTerL90 is unbanned, then anyone else banned for pronography could simply say, "I never posted that on purpose, you've got to unban me or else that proves you're biased and hypocritical because PeTerL90 got unbanned."
This would simply be unacceptable." - Big D
I guess, to some of the staff, those are just words.

[Knox]

Psy said: <i>I can understand basically what you're saying (I don't agree with it, but still), so where exactly do you draw the line? Someone who has been there for 6 months? 12 months? Posted 200 times? How is the average member to know whether or not they can break the rules without retribution?</i>

To this, I say: That depends. I just think people are getting too rule-heavy with this. There should be no "now that I'm THIS old on the forum, I can do THIS and get away with it"; however, I disagree with the fact that a trip up basically seals his fate. Administrative staff knows him; therefore, based on his character, I think exception can be made depending on their ultimate decision.

It's just how I feel about it, like I said. I don't agree with super heavy rule system. Here - maybe this will help explain it a little better, whether you agree or not.

WesM 118 (8:09:20 PM): The crux of my argument:
WesM 118 (8:09:22 PM): "Rules that are meant to apply to everyone should apply to everyone."
Imnotusnit (8:10:07 PM): I don't agree with rules like that anyway, really.
Imnotusnit (8:10:14 PM): I think it should be called SOP.
WesM 118 (8:10:20 PM): We're not arguing whether that rule is right or not!
WesM 118 (8:10:25 PM): That's not the issue.
Imnotusnit (8:10:25 PM): no no.
Imnotusnit (8:10:29 PM): Not that specific rule.
Imnotusnit (8:10:36 PM): The "Rules that apply to everyone" part.
Imnotusnit (8:10:50 PM): Rather, it should be classified as standard operating procedure.
WesM 118 (8:10:57 PM): So...you don't think someone that posts code to crash browsers should be banned?
WesM 118 (8:11:00 PM): ...huh?
WesM 118 (8:11:05 PM): Oh, hahahaha
Imnotusnit (8:11:07 PM): Have you never dealt with SOP?
Imnotusnit (8:11:17 PM): Or had you just not gotten to that yet :P
WesM 118 (8:11:26 PM): No, I hadn't gotten to that part yet. :P
WesM 118 (8:11:32 PM): Hence the "Oh, hahahaha"
Imnotusnit (8:11:32 PM): SOP makes it so that a rulebook has less power than an admin
Imnotusnit (8:11:47 PM): The rules exist, but the admin is the deciding factor
WesM 118 (8:11:56 PM): I agree. And I agree that things should be judged on an individual basis
Imnotusnit (8:11:59 PM): That gives room for said admin to be biased, however...
Imnotusnit (8:12:07 PM): That's why EOFF is (was?) a five headed dragon
WesM 118 (8:12:08 PM): However, judging this as an individual basis, there's no reason not to ban him\
Imnotusnit (8:13:14 PM): If EOFF were the army, Kishi could probably get an article 15 for that.
WesM 118 (8:13:24 PM): ...and what's that?
Imnotusnit (8:13:28 PM): But seeing as how he's been promoted a lot already, we're not gonna treat him like a private
Imnotusnit (8:13:33 PM): his TIS speaks for itself...
Imnotusnit (8:13:43 PM): Therefore, punitive action not including discharge
Imnotusnit (8:13:53 PM): Article 15 is non judicial punishment, basically.
WesM 118 (8:13:58 PM): ...
Imnotusnit (8:14:03 PM): You lose rank, money, do some extra duty, whatever the commander feels like.
WesM 118 (8:14:07 PM): you've been in the service WAY too long.
Imnotusnit (8:14:12 PM): But you don't get dishonorably discharged.
Imnotusnit (8:14:18 PM): No, I've been in the service for half a year
Imnotusnit (8:14:24 PM): I just have to deal with it EVERY day
WesM 118 (8:14:27 PM): xD

[eestlinc]

I think all this anger and debate and frustration just shows how important EoFF is to everyone here, including the staff. This really shakes the foundation of the forums, so I think we should be fair to Shlup and Yams and clout and whoever else doesn't want to rush to judgment.

Things will be all right, I hope.

[Raistlin]

I think all this anger and debate and frustration just shows how important EoFF is to everyone here, including the staff. This really shakes the foundation of the forums, so I think we should be fair to Shlup and Yams and clout and whoever else doesn't want to rush to judgment.

Things will be all right, I hope.
Rush to judgment? Peter didn't get this kind of discussion! Neither did Baloki, or Hoot, or anyone else.

The fact of the matter is that staff has told us time and time again that if anyone posted porn, they'd get banned - no matter who they were, that the rules apply to everyone equally. Now when it actually comes down to it, they don't?

Unclesimpson35: People say things, but when it comes down to it, You see who really sticks to it. Apparently.

I, for one, would not want anyone on staff who doesn't stick by the rules they preach.

[Yamaneko]

I guess, to some of the staff, those are just words.
They're not just words, Raist, but it's hard to find a parallel between Kishi and some guy who joins just to post goatse. And again, I'm not saying Kishi should not be banned for what he did. But I do think Shlup deserves a chance to explain herself. That's all I'm saying.

EDIT: The people you mentioned got discussion.

[Raistlin]

They're not just words, Raist, but it's hard to find a parallel between Kishi and some guy who joins just to post goatse. And again, I'm not saying Kishi should not be banned for what he did. But I do think Shlup deserves a chance to explain herself. That's all I'm saying.
I've been talking to Shlup since yesterday! She's explained herself as well as she's able to to me, as far as I can tell.

And you're right - there is no parallel. But the fact of the matter is, no matter how some people try to avoid it, is that if I, for example, posted that image, than I'd be gone, and Kishi's not? That's not right.

Also: staff has been telling us for YEARS that no one, except Cid, is above the rules, and that if ANYONE, <i>including current staff members</i> did it, then they'd be banned. Remember that controversy when Bleys was on staff about how he was getting away with things? Now it's time to prove that staff isn't just all talk on the matter of no favoritism.

[eestlinc]

well, there's obviously a lot of emotion involved.

[Killy]

I find this whole thing disturbing, as I cant sort out how I feel on this issue. I mean I like Kishi's comments, and I like things to be fair.

[\My two cents.]

[-N-]

Good for you, guy. Unfortunately, you're not the only one who wants to hear from her.

edit: To Raist. Posts pop up like bunny rabbits mating here.

[crono_logical]

I pledge to do whatever I can <b>in the best interest of EoFF</b>, no matter my personal feelings on the matter.And <i>if</i> it's in the best interest of EoFF to keep Kishi, then what? Are you still gonna yell at us for letting him get away with something someone else wouldn't have? :p Well, perhaps it does show that our rules aren't perfect as they stand :p

[Raistlin]

And if it's in the best interest of EoFF is to keep Kishi, then what? Are you still gonna yell at us for letting him get away with something someone else wouldn't have? Well, perhaps it does show that our rules aren't perfect as they stand
I consider following the rules and policy that have been followed and enforced faithfully for the past 5 years(made by Cid himself, I might add) to be "in the best interest of EoFF." EoFF won't fall apart without Kishi.

[Raistlin]

I love you, Doomsday. :love:

Oh, and this was no "slip-up" in the sense of, say, Peter. It was a very big lapse of judgment. And for that, the same consequences must apply.

[strawberryman]

Oh, and this was no "slip-up" in the sense of, say, Peter. It was a very big lapse of judgment. And for that, the same consequences must apply.
How could it be a slip-up in the first place?
How hard is it to remember a few file names or URL's?
that's what Copy & Paste is for anyways.

[Raistlin]

It wasn't a "slip-up"? Then I must have misunderstood something. Actually, all this means is that this doesn't deserve a thread. He should have been banned without question, which is, like I've said before, very unfortunate. All Kishi did was improve these forums in every possible way. However, he posted porn, and that is that. I can just imagine what will happen when Kishi wake's up and finds this thread.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING SINCE YESTERDAY!!!

Alas, to no avail. It seems that Staff cracks from its standards when the time actually comes for a hard decision.

EDIT:

How could it be a slip-up in the first place?
How hard is it to remember a few file names or URL's?
that's what Copy & Paste is for anyways.
It wasn't a slip-up in the sense that he meant to post the image in question.

[eestlinc]

Raist, why do you hate the staff so much? They're just human.

[Yamaneko]

The image was suggestive, but not pornographic.

[Raistlin]

Raist, why do you hate the staff so much? They're just human.
Hate staff? I <i>love</i> the staff here, and that it's the best around. And I love EoFF, which is why I'm doing this.

You're a Democrat. When Democrats speak out against Bush and certain members of his administration, do they hate America?

EDIT:

The image was suggestive, but not pornographic.
As ruled by who? All the staff members I talked to and heard from(including the two that resigned) with the exception of ONE(and I've talked to a lot) and all the members that have the image, agree that it was banworthy.

[Yuzuki130]

This whole situation makes me kinda sad. :(

[Sephex]

I've seen mods break rules before and no one really complained. I mean, yeah, this is different, but we are all human. We all make mistakes.

[Raistlin]

I've also seen regular members break rules and no one really complained. Yes, this is different.

[Sephex]

Oh yeah, you don't like me.

Anyway, my point is that people are kind of going overboard with this. Life goes on.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

Best April Fool's joke ever!

[Sephex]

Best April Fool's joke ever!

That would be funny, actually.

[Jojee]

That would be funny, actually. Nah, it'd be dumb :p

Edit: Actually, the only way it would be funny would be if Wezly wasn't in on it ;) I'd giggle, then ^^

[VampireCrono]

omg april foolz?!?!? LOZL!LK@#OK@#ROREL! !!??@#!Hr#&edbvef

[MecaKane]

Goddamnit VC what did I tell you?

[strawberryman]

Best April Fool's joke ever!
If it is I will destroy you all.

[The Captain]

This feels very much like waiting for a verdict to be delivered when you're not a member of the jury. From all the posts, PM's and the like that I've read, this situation seems to be one that could, if not dealt with properly, lead to serious problems down the line. I think, for now, we all need to take a minute and really look at everything we have before us, all the facts, everything that is at our disposal, and then see where that leads us.

Now, possibly more than ever, take care all.

[nik0tine]

I too am extremely disapointed in EoFF. I think Kishi needs to be banned, period. I would be banned if I did something like this. Everyone would. There will probably be more from me later.

[DMKA]

And oh, how all good things must come to an end.

In the 2 years I've been here (exactly 2 years as of the day that just ended), I've always held a great deal of respect for the staff, Admins and Cids Knights alike. I had the notion that they were fair, and they didn't play sh!t like this. I'm extremely dissapointed, let down, and quite shocked. Of course, I hold the utmost respect for Big D, as I always have, as well as Leeza and Lord Krang for volentarily making the move they have.

It's pretty smurfed up, to be blunt about it, and I've lost something for this place I doubt I'll be getting back. First a bunch of us getting banned by Unne because someone else changed our avatars without our knowledge, and now this. Even if you all turn around and ban him now, it won't matter, because the deeds been done, and doing so would just be an atempt to shut everyone up.

[Shlup]

Christ on a cracker, you people need to get out of the house once in awhile.

[Raistlin]

Why, Shlup? Because they think "fair is fair?"

The members have weighed in thunderously. So has the rest of staff. What's there to discuss?

[Kirobaito]

To say the absolute truth, I, along with everyone else, for the most part, would like to see the supposed picture before we make any further speculation. However, that's not exactly possible. This is a trying ordeal.

[DMKA]

Christ on a cracker, you people need to get out of the house once in awhile.
Oh, because we don't agree with favoring and giving special treatment by a staff that claims otherwise? Nice.

You wouldn't of unbanned me if I posted naughty pictures. Hell, you'd be the one to ban me, most likely.

[Shlup]

My statement stands.

[Strider]

Ahem. I just got back from work, Mandee. And I'm not so sure the snide remarks helps right now.

[Shlup]

I don't see that my help is needed here. You guys seem to be doing just fine on your own. Carry on.

[DMKA]

You're helping add fuel to the fire, apparently intentionally, but that's about it really.

[Shlup]

There's nothing to say. Everyone seems to think that a decision has been made when it hasn't, and there's nothing any of you can do about it until there is. If Matt, D, and Leeza don't want to be apart of the decision making then that's up to them. The rest of you don't seem to understand that you don't get to be apart of the decision making.

[nik0tine]

I agree with KB. I think think that the picture that Kishi posted should be put on display for everyone to see. Then we will see if anybody thinks it was ban worthy or not. I feel doing that would improve this situation tenfold.

[Strider]

And we can't let our voices be heard, regardless?

[Kirobaito]

Well, I don't quite agree with that, nik0tine. If the picture is graphic, then it would only make things worse to display it.

That's what makes this such a quandary. Can anyone really create a valid opinion until they see what the picture was?

[nik0tine]

The rest of you don't seem to understand that you don't get to be apart of the decision making.

If the members don't have a say in anything, then why is there a feedback forum in the first place? Obviously it was created because regular members have valuable opinions, just like the staff does. I think the staff should consider what the majority of EoFF'ers have to say about this.

[Shlup]

We hear you. LOUD. AND. CLEAR. The same way the jury hears Michael Jackson's fans screaming outside. But they don't let them invade the courtroom.

[DMKA]

There's nothing to say. Everyone seems to think that a decision has been made when it hasn't, and there's nothing any of you can do about it until there is. If Matt, D, and Leeza don't want to be apart of the decision making then that's up to them. The rest of you don't seem to understand that you don't get to be apart of the decision making.
Who doesn't understand that? I haven't seen anyone make any indication that they think they're part of making staff decisions. You just seem to be making up your own conclusions of what everyone who isn't in charge is thinking now apparently.

And it's not about a final decision, it's about the fact that he was banned, then unbanned, for the same thing I'd of been banned for without a second thought, or any of the rest of us who "dont understand".

[The Captain]

"I think think that the picture that Kishi posted should be put on display for everyone to see. Then we will see if anybody thinks it was ban worthy or not. I feel doing that would improve this situation tenfold."

An interesting idea, but that also poses a slippery slope type of problem. What if it IS deemed offensive, and is seen by someone who takes offense or is drastically under age and leads to a whole other can of worms.

For now, I think it would be wise to sit and wait while those in charge deal with the problem. Sure, this thread can be good because it allows many people to vent what they are feeling, which IS important, at least to me, but in the end, the people in charge do wield more power because they take on more responsiblity, and we should respect that until deemed otherwise.

That, or give the Supreme Court a call and ask them if they have jurisdiction!

Take care all.

[nik0tine]

Well, I don't quite agree with that, nik0tine. If the picture is graphic, then it would only make things worse to display it.

That is a problem, but they could pm all of us with the link, as opposed to posting it on the site. That seems like it would work. If people didn't want to view it, it would be made crystal clear that the picture would be questionable, and or pornographic.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

You guys are seriously making way to big of a deal out of this. Go about your lives people. This is the <i>internet</i>.

[The Captain]

Ah, but for many people, this place is part of their lives.

Take care all.

[DMKA]

You guys are seriously making way to big of a deal out of this. Go about your lives people. This is the <i>internet</i>.
I'm going about my life. I visit this place regularly. It's a part of my daily routine, like brushing my teeth when I wake up.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

I mean normal lives for fart's sake.

[nik0tine]

You guys are seriously making way to big of a deal out of this. Go about your lives people. This is the internet.

This is not a big deal at any time, except for when we are at EoFF. Im not going to lose sleep over this, but when I am at EoFF it is a big deal. Why? Because it is a part of what is happening at EoFF right now. In regards to EoFF this is a big deal. In the greater scheme of things, however, it is not. That, however, does not mean we that should refrain from voicing our opinions. Doing that would make very little sense.

[Shlup]

Thank you, Captain. I'm fine with this thread existing for the reasons you stated. I am not, however, fine with everyone condemning me based on few facts and many assumptions.

Who doesn't understand that? I haven't seen anyone make any indication that they think they're part of making staff decisions. You just seem to be making up your own conclusions of what everyone who isn't in charge is thinking now apparently.I'm just sayin' what I see.

And it's not about a final decision, it's about the fact that he was banned, then unbanned, for the same thing I'd of been banned for without a second thought, or any of the rest of us who "dont understand".You don't know that.
That is a problem, but they could pm all of us with the link, as opposed to posting it on the site. That seems like it would work. If people didn't want to view it, it would be made crystal clear that the picture would be questionable, and or pornographic.Or you could just let the staff do their job.

*refreshes 'cause she knows there's more*

Ah, but for many people, this place is part of their lives.I think they have professionals to help with that.

[nik0tine]

Thank you, Captain. I'm fine with this thread existing for the reasons you stated. I am not, however, fine with everyone condemning me based on few facts and many assumptions.

I don't recall anyone condemning you. I for one, am not.


I think they have professionals to help with that. :p

[Strider]

I'm not so sure you're taking this, or any of us for that matter, seriously. And that deeply concerns me.

[DMKA]

I think they have professionals to help with that.
It's quite possibly more amusing seeing you say that then it would be from anyone else on the board...I'll let you use your imagination as to why.

I just don't get why there's even a decision making process going on. It's always been posting porn = instaban. Permanent instaban. Permanent instaban with a pretty pink title under your name. But it seems like that just doesn't apply for Kishi. I'm done here though. So go on about your telling everyone else what you wish to think you "see".

[Raistlin]

Or you could just let the staff do their job.
I am. I'm not arguing with any other member of Staff, because they seem to be adequately doing their job, based on objectivie decisions.

Quick copy/paste from my LJ:


You're supposed to make a decision based on the facts of the case. Just like in a legal court - the defendent's character is not on trial; his actions are. You need to make a decision based on what Kishi did, not who Kishi is. The punishment should fit the offence, not Kishi's "status."

[Shlup]

I don't recall anyone condemning you. I for one, am not.I didn't say you were, specifically. If you don't recall anyone else doing it, though, then all that pot you must be smoking has given you the mind of a goldfish.
I'm not so sure you're taking this, or any of us for that matter, seriously. And that deeply concerns me.I think you underestimated my sincerity when I stated both that you need to go outside, and you may want to seek professional help.
It's quite possibly more amusing seeing you say that then it would be from anyone else on the board...I'll let you use your imagination as to why.Because EoFF is such a big part of my life? Because it is my home? Because I would do anything to keep it from deteriorating into nothing more than a memory?

I would be more concerned if I heard they were cancelling Desperate Housewives. Now there's something to get worked up about.
I am. I'm not arguing with any other member of Staff, because they seem to be adequately doing their job, based on objectivie decisions.Whether or not I'm adequately doing my job is also currently a staff decision, not yours. You are free to say your piece on it, but you're also more than free to shut up.

[nik0tine]

I didn't say you were, specifically. If you don't recall anyone else doing it, though, then all that pot you must be smoking has given you the mind of a goldfish.

I don't do much pot smoking, actually.

I personally do not feel that anyone is condemning you at all. I think people are just a little worked up over this (Maybe a little too worked up) and the things they are saying reflect the heat of the moment, not what they really think and feel.

[Shlup]

I don't do much pot smoking, actually.
The implication that you're a heavy pot smoker was a joke.
I personally do not feel that anyone is condemning you at all. I think people are just a little worked up over this (Maybe a little too worked up) and the things they are saying reflect the heat of the moment, not what they really think and feel.
What's said is said.

[Strider]

Oh. You are so right.

[Necronopticous]

I think this thread is overdue for the obligatory picture of a DPWL (Dancing Pancake Wearing Lingerie)

<center><img src="http://demented3d.com/ffiv/images/dpwl.jpg"></CENTER>

[Raistlin]

That is obviously Red Sexy Lingerie.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

Very nicley put. I approve.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

No matter what the verdict, I do think it would be a good idea if the staff would be willing to share their reasoning completely with the rest of us. There's much tension right now and it could spell disaster for the forum later on down the line, which is something none of us want. Instead of condemnation and emotional responses from everyone, could we please have a clear, detached explanation as to what exactly went on and why the decision that was made was made. I think that if we are given the full story, we can accept the judgement of the staff and move on from there. Whether you choose to believe it or not this is becoming a big issue to the forums, and I do think it needs to be addressed.

So, I am going to humbly request that Ms. ShlupQuack honor us with the details regarding this situation, that we might at least know why the decision was made. Understanding is the first step towards acceptance.

[The Captain]

Perhaps a great many things in life can be solved that way, though probably not problems in one's sex life.

Take care all.

[nik0tine]

Someone ban Necronopticous! That picture is suggestive!

[Raistlin]

A decision hasn't been made - that's the problem. Or, at least, Shlup and the rest of Staff haven't reached an agreement.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Then at the very least a consistent update, much as you are doing in the thread about Terri Schiavo.

[Shlup]

What Raistlin said. Just that last post though.

[Raistlin]

Then at the very least a consistent update, much as you are doing in the thread about Terri Schiavo.
xD

kk, here it goes:

Kishi made a thread with an image in it. Big D editted out the image. Kishi deleted the thread. Kishi made another thread with the same image. Big D editted out the image again. Big D posted in Staff. Daryl stepped up and did what Staff does when someone posts porn - bans the offender. Everyone on staff currently online goes "boo hoo, I can't believe he'd do that. I'll miss Kishi." Shlup gets online, unbans Kishi and re-Knights him(it gets hazy here, but I believe Daryl banned him again and Shlup unbanned him again). Big D's pissed, makes this thread. Leeza and Matt are so pissed they quit Staff. Daryl's pissed. Other mods that I've talked to aren't happy.

Yeah, that pretty much covers everything.

[Shlup]

I'm really tempted to just edit that out, Raist, because it is not accurate. I ask that, please, everyone disregard Raist's version of the story and wait patiently while the staff discusses the matter, at which time we'll be sure to take the time to let everyone know what's going on.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

That part I understand, I'm merely asking that Shlup or someone else be willing to keep the rest of us filled in with the staff discussion as it happens, so we can at least know what's going on and better understand it as we watch the process unfold.

[Raistlin]

I'm really tempted to just edit that out, Raist, because it is not accurate. I ask that, please, everyone disregard Raist's version of the story and wait patiently while the staff discusses the matter, at which time we'll be sure to take the time to let everyone know what's going on.
So Daryl saying in this thread that she banned Kishi twice is innaccurate?

And I <i>know</i> the first half is accurate because I <i>was there</i> for it, talking with Daniel and RSL. The only things I don't know for certain(which is why I said "it gets a bit hazy here) is what happened after you unbanned Kishi.

[nik0tine]

I agree with BtV. It would be nice if they did that, and it might help release tensions a little. However, it isn't necessary.

[Shlup]

So Daryl saying in this thread that she banned Kishi twice is innaccurate?
That part is accurate.

And I <i>know</i> the first half is accurate because I <i>was there</i> for it, talking with Daniel and RSL.
Well then you must be dumber than I thought 'cause you totally messed that part up.

[Raistlin]

Kishi made thread. D editted pic out. Kishi deleted thread. Kishi posted same thread again. D editted image again. This part I saw with my own eyes.

D made thread in Staff. Or someone did. RSL only told me "he's making a thread in Staff," but maybe that changed. Either way, it was discussed in Staff. Daryl banned Kishi. I asked RSL, afterwards, if it was still being discussed. He said, "unless you count 'I can't believe he did this' as discussion, then no" or something like that. This I was around for.

[eestlinc]

SHlup, I know you love BJ and all, but you and Wesley would make a <i>great</i> couple.

[Shlup]

Well you totally neglected to notice that I was also around for that part, and he wasn't banned for some time, in spite of the fact that several admins, Daryl not included were around.

EDIT: EEST! I don't even know how to respond to that without having to ban myself after.

[The Captain]

Or a great sitcom! With Desperate Housewives now "cancelled", something has to fill the void.

Take care all.

[Loony BoB]

Man, you guys are crazy. And I thought the thread in Staff got fast posts. Craaaaaaaaaaaazy.

I'm not getting too heavily involved because it seems that everyone that does is losing their faith in humanity or something, and getting quoted in and out of context, and this and that and blah. I for one support Shlup in this matter and I think that you guys should really give the girl a break. Well, okay, she's making some stupid responses (sorry, Shlup, it's true :p Maybe YOU need to get off the 'net and relax and let them calm down xD), but she's still made a decision and sometimes it's not the one that everyone favours, but is the one that is best for EoFF in the long run.

You all know I love EoFF to bits. I live this place. In the over-four-years that I've been here, Kishi has been one of the shining figures, and despite me not seeing eye to eye with him at all points, I figure that, hey, he made one mistake. Just one, in over four years. One lapse of judgement - and only minor, because the image was controversial. You just have to keep in mind what's best for EoFF in the long run. If there is anything bad that comes of this, it's the fault of the people who throw a fit over something they shouldn't have thrown a fit about. You guys have to trust us to make that good a decision. Have we ever let you down in the past in any big way? I can't think of a time.

I love Leeza and I love Matty to death. However it's their choice to step down and I saw it coming for a long time anyway. Leeza has been constantly talked about behind her back for a long time and despite what anyone says, even herself, I think that's the #1 reason for her stepping down. This just happened to be a good time, or something. As for Matty, well, he's stepped down before, but time is a healer, I hope, as with almost every other Staffer that has stepped down in disgust, I trust he'll come right in the end. It's notable that this isn't the first time the staff have broken up on a decision, it's just the first time that you guys have been around in a media-like way to see it happen and hear about why.

So, you have choice number one - accept it, let it go, work your way back towards good feelings and cuddles and love everyone. Choice number two, make a big fuss over one member that doesn't really have anything to do with YOUR EoFF experience in any way whatsoever, and only make things worse for yourself and everyone else. I know it's not always what you want to hear, but sometimes you have to accept things and move along. I've had to do this on many, many occasions. Anyone who has been on EoFF's staff for quite some time will know that this

This really does feel like a media thing. Raistlin/Feedback is being the media. We've had World War I & II at EoFF but you guys didn't even know about it. Now we're having a media-watched war and suddenly everyone is making a big deal. This stuff does happen at EoFF. The only mistake that anyone has made is letting the public know about it. Usually we're a lot better than that. And I'm sorry for that much. There have been 'wars' at EoFF with more 'casualties' (including quite possibly my best friend on Staff who has only made 2-5 posts since that date many years ago). It's very, very, very hard for people, and it can bring me to huge stress and can put staffers into a temporary state of depression at times - or maybe I'm alone in that area, I don't know. But yeah. It is hard. Now you're actually seeing what happens, and you don't like it. Well, do you think we're enjoying all of this? We aren't. We'd rather everyone would just settle down. Feedback has become a media center and I hate it. I liked it better when the only things that people knew about when it comes to what goes on in Staff is what we told them. And when people who stepped down never said a thing about why. They don't have to like the rules but they respected them. That includes the rule that we can do whatever we want.

Please, guys, don't take this too far. I wonder if World War I was to re-occur in a time with modern media if they would have considered the whole thing to be brutal and for Winston Churchil to be slated for his approach to the war. Media sucks. Sorry, I'm getting more into a personal gripe about this now.

Also, I'm not going to respond to all the IMs and PMs about this. I'm having a beautiful time away from EoFF in certain aspects of my life and I refuse to let this ruin it. EoFF, as I have said earlier in this post, does have it's troubles and luckily we're usually very good at hiding them - if Big D hadn't posted, if nobody oustide Staff ever knew about this, nobody would have made a big deal (no Big D-eal pun intended :p). Would that have been so bad? Have you lost faith in EoFF in the past when the staff has broken down? No, because you never knew. Sometimes we bend the rules or change them for certain people, yes. Sometimes they end up getting banned anyway - such is life.

For what it's worth, I've always - always - been a very anti-ban kind of guy. If I get my way once in all of it, then I'm happy. Let it be this once

EDIT, AFTER THE RECENT POSTS THAT SUDDENLY SURGED IN SINCE I CLICKED 'REPLY': What I do find that raises my spirits in all of this is that people are still finding the time to make jokes that make me laugh. That is the true spirit of Eyes on Final Fantasy and I love you for it. Even in these times, I know we can pull through.

[The Captain]

Who IS your speech writer, good sir?

In all seriousness, I understand where you're coming from as best I can.

Take care all.

[Shlup]

*pokes Cappy with a rod*

...

*does the same to BoB*

My stupid responses are my favorite ones.

[nik0tine]

So what Bob is basically saying is that the EoFF staff is like a secret society. Hmm... *Strokes chin* hmm...

[fire_of_avalon]

I really don't know how to feel about any of this. I don't know what was posted, but I can only respect the fact that it was at least somewhat offensive, because I don't believe Big D would remove and image for nothing, and though I don't know Daryl well at all, I don't believe anyone would boot a staff member that quick unless it was something pretty icky.

However, I am notoriously against the instaban policy, for anyone, not just for "important people". In my eyes, instabanning is unduly severe punishment for an accident/lapse in judgement/drunk post.

But Kishi, more than most other members, should be aware of the rules, and set an example by following them.

I really don't know what to think.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

While I still would like to know more of the details, I can understand and accept BoB's explanation, I do realize where he is coming from and can understand many of the feelings out there.

And thus, with that said, let us proceed to spam this thread until it closes, like we do with all of the other Feedback threads!

[The Captain]

Amen!

Take care all.

[strawberryman]

That was worth a reply.

Y'ARRR!

[The Captain]

And on that note, I shall head off to bed.

Good night and take care all.

[nik0tine]

Wait, wait, wait, just a second! So now everybody is happy? Jeez... Thanks alot Bob! I was having alot of fun debating!

[Miriel]

Or a great sitcom! With Desperate Housewives now "cancelled", something has to fill the void.

Take care all.

Oh my God, Captain what are you talking about?! Desperate Housewives and the word "cancelled" should never be in the same sentence together. ;_;

Kinda like how Kishi and "banned" really don't go together.

Honestly, this is coming from a regular member who never posts in feedback, I really wouldn't mind it if Kishi were given an exemption. I don't understand this demand for complete objectivity and emotionless fact sorting. Nothing on Eyeson is completely objective. Hell, nothing in life is completely objective. >_>

All the "oh it's a pity, but he needs to stay banned" folks have had their say, here's mine: I want Kishi to stay.

[Loony BoB]

I love you guys, and BTV, you made me laugh so hard. xD It's so true! And it's really why we should probably close Feedback. So many reasons!

[eestlinc]

Pretty soon you'll forget about all this anyway, and we always get newbies and they won't even know anything about it. It happens every time. You might as well start accepting reality.

[Shlup]

So what Bob is basically saying is that the EoFF staff is like a secret society. Hmm... *Strokes chin* hmm...
No one told you the Staff Forum is invisible to non-staff members? 'Cause it is.

Good night and take care all.

[eestlinc]

No one told you the Staff Forum is invisible to non-staff members? 'Cause it is.

Except that one time when someone screwed up!

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

This stuff does happen at EoFF. The only mistake that anyone has made is letting the public know about it. Usually we're a lot better than that. And I'm sorry for that much. There have been 'wars' at EoFF with more 'casualties' (including quite possibly my best friend on Staff who has only made 2-5 posts since that date many years ago). It's very, very, very hard for people, and it can bring me to huge stress and can put staffers into a temporary state of depression at times - or maybe I'm alone in that area, I don't know. But yeah. It is hard. Now you're actually seeing what happens, and you don't like it. Well, do you think we're enjoying all of this? We aren't. We'd rather everyone would just settle down. Feedback has become a media center and I hate it. I liked it better when the only things that people knew about when it comes to what goes on in Staff is what we told them.

http://www.moviefans.de/mib/img/kay.jpg

There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Korilian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out life on this miserable planet. The only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they. Do. Not. Know about it.

[fire_of_avalon]

Peter was Peter, but he was still banned.

I think, that at the very least, this proves that the policy of insta-banning needs to come under a certain amount of scrutiny.

[nik0tine]

Except that one time when someone screwed up!

Was it Big D!?

[eestlinc]

no, see you didn't know about that either.

[Yamaneko]

Well, there's always someone looking in when they shouldn't. :shifty:

[Loony BoB]

Then they tell us that we can't ban them because they know stuff.

And then we ban them.

[nik0tine]

Then they tell us that we can't ban them because they know stuff.

And then we ban them.

Give us back our freedom, you tyrants! :mad2:

[Big D]

In the over-four-years that I've been here, Kishi has been one of the shining figures, and despite me not seeing eye to eye with him at all points, I figure that, hey, he made one mistake. Just one, in over four years. One lapse of judgement - and only minor, because the image was controversial. You just have to keep in mind what's best for EoFF in the long run.HOOTERS, formerly Hootenanny, was another 'shining pinnacle of EoFF awesomeness'. He made me laugh like a drain on so many occasions. He made one 'slip up' and was banned outright.

Kishi, a veteran staffer who knows the rules better than anyone else, deliberately posted that picture, and the staff reacted accordingly. Equal treatment for everyone, and all that. Last time I checked, we didn't second-guess and undo each others' decisions, behind each others' backs. How is it 'best for EoFF' if blatantly biased and unfair decisions get made this way?
I love Leeza and I love Matty to death.That's nice, but does that mean you'll re-mod them without consulting the rest of staff? Maybe you'll let them get the same leeway that Kishi has been allowed.
Choice number two, make a big fuss over one member that doesn't really have anything to do with YOUR EoFF experience in any way whatsoever, and only make things worse for yourself and everyone else. I know it's not always what you want to hear, but sometimes you have to accept things and move along.We should 'accept' that staff truly are above the rules, and completely untouchable, provided they've earned enough 'coolness points'? What if I think HOOTERS was the coolest, most important person ever in EoFF history? Perhaps 'oldbie staff' opinions are worth more than n00b material such as myself.
if Big D hadn't posted, if nobody oustide Staff ever knew about this, nobody would have made a big deal It already was a big deal. Way to make it seem like my fault, too. Who was it that posted the tentacle hentai again?
They don't have to like the rules but they respected them. That includes the rule that we can do whatever we want.
That really is a scary thought, Daniel. If the staff can just 'do whatever they want', even when regulars are banned for less, what reason do members have to trust and respect their staff?
everyone disregard Raist's version of the story and wait patiently while the staff discusses the matter, at which time we'll be sure to take the time to let everyone know what's going on."What's going on" is quite simple - a few people have taken it upon themselves to abandon the just principles they're supposed to be upholding. Even though they say "it's still being discussed", they've gone ahead and acted against the direct wishes of their peers, also undermining one of the oldest and most important principles in this "family-friendly forum".

Will there be a new rule on who's allowed to post unsuitable images? Will there be a heirarcy drawn up, showing which staffers' opinions take precedence? That is the issue here. It's not about Kishi - I think the guy is great - but it's about what he did and what's been done in response. The rule is clear - post porn, get banned. It's always been that way. We enforce the rules, we debate them in Feedback, we argue vehemently to convince our members that these rules are justifiable and equitable... then this happens. Where's the line drawn? Is there a line? Does ShlupQuack's mood determine policy from one day to the next?

I'm very fond of Amanda; her forthright and emphatic decision-making have been a great help to EoFF's staff... but this just isn't right. I can't tolerate being part of a group that makes a decision, the only option available, but then is simply told to 'get over it' when our actions are relegated to meaninglessness. I couldn't do so much as close another thread now, without questioning whether it'll get re-opened because a different staffer has a different opinion of the person who posted.

For that reason, I don't feel like I have any option but to leave EoFF staff forthwith. I've spent the last two years developing new self-esteem and confidence; I'm not going to allow an internet message board of all things to undermine that.

[Necronopticous]

By the time I get back from San Francisco Cid is going to be knightless ;(

[Del Snizz]

By whatever standard you want to use, I was not a very good moderator. I hardly ever took any kind of disciplinary action, and to the limited extent that I contributed to the discussions on the public boards during most of my tenure, my posts tended to steer conversations off on ridiculous tangents. What I regret most about my ‘service’ is not, however, the disappointing farce that was my public persona as a Knight, but, rather, that I utterly failed to use my office to motivate changes in the institutional policy of the boards. The root of the problem, as I understand it now, was not wholly invisible to me then, and yet I offered neither my general impression of the need for change nor any practical solutions for carrying out such a transformation. I’m still lacking when it comes to the details of policy proposals, but I feel an obligation to share my thoughts on the cause of this latest crisis.

The problem with EoFF as an institution is that it is an institution. It is not this fact alone, of course: a corporation, for example, is an institution, but it can generally function without the kind of difficulty we see before us now. This is because the purpose of a corporation, to make money for its investors, is not at odds with its impersonal institutional nature. On the other hand, the purpose of EoFF has always been, in my view (and I like to think in most everyone else’s), to create a community of friends. This goal of community, the goal of friendship, is not well served by a hierarchical structure and a fixed code of law, but the nature of the medium and the expanding number of participants necessitate some degree of institutional order. Because of the fundamental friction resulting from the combination of the institutional impulse and the communal impulse in a single entity (and their ambiguous relationship to each other), we occasionally find ourselves left as participants in a true Hegelian tragedy, a conflict between two goods.

The virtue of an institution is order; it is a set of rules and the equality of all its members under those rules. The institution values efficiency in working toward a single purpose. It is profoundly impersonal, and all members who violate the rules are treated exactly the same by those given the power to execute the fixed penalties. The virtue of a community is goodwill among all its members; it is a shared sense of understanding and respect. The community of friends does not have a fixed structure or set of rules, but the standards of acceptable conduct are generally understood. Everyone is an equal participant, and those friends who act inappropriately are not automatically separated from the community.

Many in this thread argue that our friend ‘Kishi should be banned forever for the sake of justice, for equality under the law. The dedication to this kind of institutional justice appears to most here an admirable quality, but I ask you to consider whether it is truly just to instantly and permanently reject a friend, to cast him out of your community for as long as it should last. What do you really gain from forsaking one of your own? Ultimately, this raises the question of whether the institutional standard of justice is appropriate for our community.

You can say (and you have said) that it would only be fair, that if one member is banned for breaking a rule, then all members who break it should be banned. You can say (and you have said) that many members have met the same punishment for breaking the rule. You are not wrong to say these things. To the extent that EoFF is an institution, this is the ideal it should be striving for. However, if you, like I do, agree that the ideal of friendship should be the true spirit of EoFF and should always have supremacy over the institutional principle here, then you will vehemently oppose the action to ban ‘Kishi. Furthermore, you will challenge <i>every</i> instantaneous and permanent ban that is imposed on <i>any</i> one of our friends.

I am not passing judgment on the actions of our friend ‘Kishi that allegedly warranted so severe a punishment, for I lack sufficient unbiased information. I am, however, passing judgment on the policy that permits and demands this punishment. For a member who has been with us so long and who has given us so much, an action would have to be many orders of magnitude more destructive to our sense of community than the worst of the accusations leveled against him in this case in order for the thought of permanent banishment to enter our consciousness. I say this not out of support for some kind of aristocratic privilege, whereby only certain veterans or staff members are exempt from sanctions for their actions, but I believe rather that any member who demonstrates in good faith his or her interest in being a part of our community and maintaining our friendship deserves to be treated as a friend and not as an enemy of the institution. Those who would wish to hack the site or otherwise severely disrupt our community in their first days here should not simply be forgiven, of course, but we should always exercise the utmost caution when it comes to executing any extreme measures.

We now find ourselves with an opportunity to fairly evaluate our goal and the path we are on. From where I stand, the boards have been drifting away from the ideal of community for a long time; it is only natural that so many here would cry out for the strict, impersonal severity that the institutional structure offers. It is comforting, in a way, to know that the most well-liked and influential members can suffer the same cruel fate as anyone else. I warn you, though, that the glee this sentiment provides is fleeting, that it pales in comparison with the joys of forgiving your friends their errors of judgment and retaining the benefits of their company. I can only hope that the present crisis opens your eyes to the true extent of the problems that have been accumulating for years, and that you will come to embrace the path of friendship.

Though I have for some time been largely absent from the day-to-day events of the boards, I have not abandoned you, and I have not forgotten what it means to be a member of this community. I solemnly pledge that I will do everything in my power to improve our condition and help us live up to our best ideals. If we act wisely on the matter before us, this can be the first day of a new era. It will be simultaneously a renaissance and a revolution; a return to our beginnings and a new course to a better future.

[nik0tine]

Big D is gone from the staff too? This truly is a sad day. People which every last one of us respects are resigning from the staff. It's unfortunate that this whole thing had to happen. So much negativity came from it, and we ended up losing at least three respectable members from the staff.

[strawberryman]

Del snizz's post makes me feel guilty. :(
My head hurts, too.

[nik0tine]

Well said, Snizz.

After reading that, I thought maybe there could be an alternative to the 'instaban' policy. Instead of banning those who post porn, why don't we forever restrict thier ability to post links? I don't know if this is actually possible. The way I see it, you could just have anything that contains "http://" , "www." ".com" ".org" ".net" etc. be filtered out automatically just like swear words are. Although, like I said, I am not sure if this is possible to pull off.

Anyways, just a suggestion. Take it or leave it, but please consider it.

[Agent Proto]

Or instead.... draw a better line on what's "acceptable" and what's not acceptable.

If the picture Kishi posted is "borderline", and someone else posts the same picture Kishi posted that had him banned then unbanned twice, does that mean the picture is "safe" to post?

A line has to be drawn in the "no-porn" policy. What's porn and what's not?
So, if Kishi got unbanned for suggestive "tentacle hentai", then PeTeR should get the same treatmeant for posting a girl licking a "large snow penis" by accident. But not that he should get unbanned.

And seeing all these mods leave make me sad. :(

[nik0tine]

And seeing all these mods leave make me sad. :(

Me too... :(

[-N-]

This is what I was trying to say about 100 posts ago, but Del Snizz said it better, and everyone listens to him more. So I won't bitch anymore, but please, listen to the man. At least read what he has to say.

Michami Dukadam - it's Hindi.

[Citizen Bleys]

The way I see it, a pillar of the freakin' community posted a borderline image, and was banned for it instantly, as though one would ban your typical RPGWars raider who pops in just to post a code exploit that crashes IE.

Unbanning 'Kishi is nothing more than an application of the UYFB rule. Some rule in a dusty old tome in the back of the staff room should never overrule human judgment. Losing 'Kishi would have been a nigh-critical blow to the forums. Losing D as a staffer affects my personal morale, since as of late he's been my EoFF hero, but the forums can survive that. Leeza leaving is probably better for her anyways (no more problems with WesLY). Matt's leaving is neutral--he'll continue to be the same off-staff as he was on. But all 3 of them together becoming regular members like me won't have as much of a huge, earth-shattering impact as losing 'Kishi permanently. 'Kishi's been the one staffer who always keeps his head above the water in the staffroom drama (BoB's World Wars...and believe me, he doesn't underestimate that. World War I was my fault.), whose contributions are always useful, and who always seems to know the right way to react to any situation. Banning 'Kishi would have been a bigger blow to EoFF than the Cid/Quigoni schism, bigger than the Feb '02's "World War I" (which started the ball rolling on my resignation in '03), and bigger than the huge kafuffel over Linus's little April Fool's suicide note.

I'm glad to see the Use Your F*** Brain rule applied here in precedence over a rule that was written before the birth of Christ and which clearly did not anticipate this specific situation.

[Rye]

Man, do you know how hard it was to read through all of those posts? I kind of skimmed. 3 pages of stuff at 7:30 AM is hard to read.

Anyways, it's a real dissapointment that so many staff members left. Big D leaving has really upset me. I always thought he was one of the best CKs.

I don't think it's fair to say they took the easy way out. They left because they were disgusted, as many regulars are by this, and to make it seem like a selfish motive is not right.

And about the "Get a life" comments. Those are laughable. Just because people care about what is fair - message board or not, because afterall, we're still people here - doesn't mean they have no life.

Also, did anyone even consult Kishi about adding he back? Maybe he did it because he too, started becoming disgusted by EoFF. And if you even unbanned him for what he did, I don't think instantly putting him back to CK is the most intelligent thing.

That's really all I have to say. It's pretty obvious what should be done, but as I'm not a staff member, and get no leeway if I did anything wrong, why would my opinion be heard?

[Loony BoB]

I've talked to Kishi. He did most certainly not want to get banned. =P

[Little Miss Awesome]

I know I haven't really been here long enough to comment, so sorry if you any of you think I'm being a big headed know it all.
But I think over the last week stuff has been going a bit haywire here, and I don't want to be banned or anything but I do think it's kinda unfair that some people should be allowed to be unblocked while others shouldn't just because of how highly ranked they are here. I think it doesn't matter who you are, if you break the rules, then you should be treat equally with everybody else who are just regular members

[Daryl]

This thread has gone on long enough. It's degenerated from actual opinions just to spammy bickering. Staff is still discussing this, you'll all outdoubtedly learn what "we" decide upon. *kills*

[Yamaneko]

Yeah, but not just staff should be talking about this. The members have just as much a right to talk about this as we do. Feedback is here for that. I don't think we should deny the members that opportunity. But, whatever, I'm tired of all this. For me it's a simple ban him or don't, and get on with it.

[Daryl]

I'm not denying that the members should be able to discuss the... "issue"... in a mature manner. This thread wasn't exactly doing that.

Then again, I still feel there is no issue to be discussed. Reopen this if you wish. *shrugs*

[Del Murder]

Well a couple days have gone by, so I'm going to open this up again because I think this is an issue that the members should have an input on. Or at least be entitled to an explanaion.

I didn't think kishi should have been banned in the first place. I saw the image and thought it was borderline, but not something to throw away a four+ year career over. If Joe Newbie posted that image he would have been banned. If any of you posted that image you would have been banned. But if dedication and seniority can't buy you out of one mistake, then what are they worth? Kishi has been a very important figure at this board for some time. Would I have been banned if I did the same thing? I don't know, I'm not really sure I have that kind of status yet, but I might be able to talk my way out of it.

The main problem I have was with the way it was handled. Only three staff members were initially involved (some of which have taken the true 'easy way out' and stepped down), and this resulted in a ban without even a general discussion or hearing from the perpetrator himself. Thankfully this error was corrected by Shlup (who I think has been getting unfairly treated in this thread and is my main reason for reopening it), and we were able to 'discuss' the matter about as well as the Jews and Palestinians discuss pizza toppings, but at least we came to a decision. Kishi stays. Maybe he shouldn't have gotten his mod position back, but I think achieving such tenure as his would allow for at least one strike. When any of you reach that plateau we'll let you know.

My only regret is that I had the flu for the last few days and was unable to defend my fellow staffers ShlupQuack and Loony BoB in a public view. They have been getting a lot of guff over this issue, and I think this is unfounded. Look at yourselves before you cast stones. Would you turn away a good friend, a family member, a child just because they made one mistake? It was a cartoon image for crying out loud. They have been my heroes in this whole ordeal, for standing their ground and sticking up for what is right.

Big D, you were once my favorite, and my disappointment is great, but most of what I have to say to you was said in the staff thread and ensuing pm I sent to you (I didn't mean to get personal there, I was still a little under the weather and this stuff was really getting to me). I wish you luck, because that is all a coward has.

[edczxcvbnm]

For the record. I have not seen the image. Not that it would matter because look who you are talking to. You probably couldn't offend me if you tried.

Everyone's issue here is that time and time again it has been stated by all staff members that it doesn't matter who you are even an administrator would get banned. If you are not sure if the image is okay to post then play it safe and don't post it. Also once you are banned then you are banned. You can't get unbanned. Also since when the the person getting banned have a say in the ruling?

Since I have not seen the picture could someone post it in this thread for me to see. Seeing as how Kawaii didn't get banned over it then it must be acceptable to post...or else he would still be banned.

[The Captain]

While you're entitled to your opinion, calling someone a coward seems a bit out of line to me.

How is someone standing up for what they believe and following through on it "the easy way out"? I think that's actually the hard way out, something I highly doubt a lot of people would bring themselves to do.

Take care all.

[eestlinc]

thank you for bringing us commoners into your world, if only for a moment. I think I'm going to start manipulating everyone until I am the head admin now. Don't get in my way or I'll kill you too.

[RSL]

Just when you think this might blow over. Thanks a bunch, Del.

[Psychotic]

My only regret is that I had the flu for the last few days and was unable to defend my fellow staffers ShlupQuack and Loony BoB in a public view. They have been getting a lot of guff over this issue, and I think this is unfounded. Look at yourselves before you cast stones. Would you turn away a good friend, a family member, a child just because they made one mistake? It was a cartoon image for crying out loud. They have been my heroes in this whole ordeal, for standing their ground and sticking up for what is right. When Shlup says things like "Christ on a cracker, you people need to get out of the house once in awhile." instead of at least trying to justify what she did, then what do you expect her to get other than guff, Del? As for BoB, he is nothing more than a hypocrite according to one of the quotes Raistlin has kindly collected: "I would ban my best friend if he did something wrong." If they really had stood their ground like you were suggesting, then they wouldn't have made an exception for one of their own. Big D, Leeza and Lord Krang are the ones who stood their ground, in my mind.

Anyway, to be honest, I'm not all that bothered that Kishi isn't banned and I never have been - he's a great member and an asset to EoFF. It's just frustrating when the staff let their own friends get away with things (when they specifically stated they would not do this) when our own friends (Peter, for example) are banned for it. To quote Fire_of_avalon: "Peter is to me what Kishi is to them."

But as I requested in my first post: Please can we have a clarfication regarding innaproppriate images, and who has the "importance" and "status" to avoid this. Otherwise it leads to uncertainty as to what is allowed and what isn't, and in my mind there needs to be some sort of clarity regarding things like this.

[nik0tine]

I wish you luck, because that is all a coward has.

Oh please... I have alot of respect for you Del, but that was completely uncalled for.

I don't know what the image was. I didn't see it. However, if I, or another member had posted it , you said we would get banned? That most definetly does not seem right to me. I can understand the Kishi was unbanned. He has been here for years. However, the fact that after being banned he STILL kept his knighthood is unacceptable to me. He may be a respectable member of the community, but he has proven himself unfit to be a CK. A Cid's Knight is someone that we should trust. A Cids Knight is not someone that would post 'borderline' images.

I don't have a problem if he stays, but I think his status as a CK should be revoked.

[Flamethrower]

I don't think he should be banned, nor do I think he should be demodded. What I want to see is for the staff to own up to their big mistake in the past when they said they would ban anybody including current staff for posting porn. Making mistakes is forgivable; making mistakes and acting like you didn't is not.

[Raistlin]

My biggest concern is that staff has said for <i>years</i> that it doesn't matter if you're a member, Knight, or administrator - if you're anyone but Cid, you're equally responsible for your own actions, and you are treated equally by the rules. Do I need to take out my page of quotes again? If you admit any regular member would be banned for posting that image, then it's obviously not border-line.

I, too, am somewhat disappointed with Matt, D, and Leeza(although I understand Leeza had been talking/thinking about stepping down for some time now and Matt always talked about it). Yes, stepping down and let others making your arguments <i>is</i> the easy way out. But so is going back on five-year-old staff principles so you don't have to make a hard decision.

[Del Murder]

I will officially apologize for the coward remark. I'm still a little hazy and my emotions got the best of me as the post wore on. If you saw some of the things D was saying in the staff thread you would see where I'm coming from.

[Strider]

One thing.

This isn't a business or a university or anything like that. There shouldn't be any such thing as "tenure", as Del put it, lest it be construed as... well, for lack of a better term, elitism.

[Raistlin]

Elitism, bias, however you want to put it. It goes against everything EoFF has stood for, and everything the staff has told us, for the past five years. It means that, once you reach a certain point where Staff doesn't have the stomach to ban you, you're not responsible for your actions.

What bothers me the most is that, not only was Kishi not banned as per the rules, but he wasn't even <i>punished</i>. He wasn't temporarily banned, wasn't kicked off Staff, nothing. Is this a muligan? What is this, golf?

[eestlinc]

If you are really annoyed by stuff here it's usually best to just take a few days or a month off and don't come here at all. Then when you come back you'll realize what you like about this place. Then again, maybe you'll realize how much you enjoy life without EoFF, and if that happens then you are better off for it.

[Yamaneko]

Yup.

[Raistlin]

If you are really annoyed by stuff here it's usually best to just take a few days or a month off and don't come here at all. Then when you come back you'll realize what you like about this place. Then again, maybe you'll realize how much you enjoy life without EoFF, and if that happens then you are better off for it.
Have you not paid attention? I just took a few days off.

But I say this: if you are not annoyed, frustrated, or whatever when something you feel is wrong is done, then you don't really care. If I wasn't annoyed, or frustrated, or depressed when something I felt is wrong happened at EoFF, I wouldn't really care about EoFF. If I wasn't willing to argue for what I feel is right at EoFF, then I don't really care about EoFF. And I do care, as those who have been arguing in Feedback care, as those who have been arguing in Staff care. For both sides.

[Del Murder]

kishi will be watched like a hawk, I assure you. I have chained myself to him for the time being (he wanted it to be Shlup but we denied that request, just to show you that we don't give him <i>everything</i> he wants).

[Raistlin]

I would've sworn he'd ask for Unne...

[eestlinc]

Have you not paid attention? I just took a few days off.


Obviously it wasn't enough time. I think too many people are way too worked up about stupid internet drama. I care a lot about this place but I'm not going to lose sleep over some stupid made up rules inconsistency crap. People are inconsistent. If you have trouble dealing with that you'll have a long, hard life. This place runs a lot better when everyone "cares" less. Go post in the FF forums maybe. Remind yourself why you came here in the first place.

[Raistlin]

Obviously it wasn't enough time. I think too many people are way too worked up about stupid internet drama. I care a lot about this place but I'm not going to lose sleep over some stupid made up rules inconsistency crap. People are inconsistent. If you have trouble dealing with that you'll have a long, hard life. This place runs a lot better when everyone "cares" less. Go post in the FF forums maybe. Remind yourself why you came here in the first place.
Obviously, you don't care as much as you think if you couldn't care less how things work out.

If you don't care about the discussion, just don't view the threads or talk about it. Easy enough. People have different priorities than you and care differently than you. If you have trouble dealing with that, you'll have a long, hard life.

[eestlinc]

You don't have to get spiteful. :D You can ignore my advice if you want, but I dont think anyone can really argue that I don't care about this place.

[The Captain]

Though I see where you're coming from Eest, part of what I think feeds some of the major problems in the world is that they aren't addressed even on the smallest levels. If a child isn't taught that rules should be followed, when they grow up, how will they respect said rules, to use an example. When something is deemed unfair or inconsistent, and isn't dealt with, it grows and can lead to other problems, perhaps not on a board but in a person's life off of the board. I treat this and everything I take part in as an extension of myself, of what I strive for in my life so I can't just go quietly into the night because doing that would be going against everything I try to stand for, not just as a member, but as a person existing in this world.

To me this issue carries great weight because it is something I care about.

Strangely enough, I rather enjoy when I'm told something is never going to change, because that motivates me to push harder and keep going, even if it is fruitless. If we cannot be judged in how we try, how can we be judged at all?

Take care all.

[Raistlin]

Everybody who posts here cares about it, I think. It's all a matter of degree. I think if you care enough about a place, you're willing to put forth some modicum of effort for such a place. Isn't that what staff does?

EDIT: I love you, Cap'n. :love:

[eestlinc]

I don't see how consistency is a virtue. Predictable is a synonym for boring in my book.

[Mr. Graves]

I, personally, am of the opinion that internet drama can make one care less about what happens in a forum, and of the internet in general, mainly as a defensive thing. I don't care near as much about this place as I once did, say...2 years back? And believe me...I cared. When I saw people making remarks about other people (mainly towards Joel), I would make an LJ entry about it and stuff like that. And if course I'd jump into stuff that wasn't even my business, mostly via LJ. And I think that is what made me tire of EoFF in the first place, as well as seeing old people who were regulars when I joined stop posting around here. I don't even know over half of the folks that post here today. That I do know are current or now former staffers.

Therefore don't get involved, so I don't take a part in much drama that breaks out. And I'm occupied with college stuff, and that comes first before most things anymore.

EDIT:


Predictable is a synonym for boring in my book.

That's another thing that made me tire of forums in general too. Seeing the same people act the same way. I'm glad you brought that up. :)

[The Captain]

"I don't see how consistency is a virtue. Predictable is a synonym for boring in my book"

I guess we just don't read from the same book. I've always found consistency to be among the highest virtue because it's so tough to have and attain, in sports, in entertainment, in law and in life. Positive consistency, that is.

Different strokes for different folks.

Take care all.

[Raistlin]

I don't see how consistency is a virtue. Predictable is a synonym for boring in my book.
There's a difference between a consistency of actions and a consistency of values. I would hope that the morals, principles, and values which spawned this place and kept it going for the past 5 1/2 years would not differ too dramatically.

[nik0tine]

I said this earlier, but I will say it again, because I think other people feel this way as well.

I do not care about this incident at any other time, except for when I am visiting EoFF. I don't lose sleep over this, and I don't give it much thought when I am busy living my real life. However, when I am at EoFF I treat it as something that deserves recognition. It is important TO EoFF, and therefore when we visit EoFF, it becomes important for the period of time that we are logged on. That's how I see it, at least.

Edit:
There's a difference between a consistency of actions and a consistency of values

Oh my god! John Kerry is a flip flopper!

[eestlinc]

So you make a policy. Then when faced with a dilemma involving this policy you stop and rethink the policy, and then change it. How is that abandoning your morals? It's easy to say "I'd ban my grandmother for posting porn" when you don't have to do it. When you are put in that situation then you are able to evaluate it from a different perspective.

[The Captain]

So it would seem that the saying, "Do as I say, not as I do" still rings true.

Take care all.

[eestlinc]

Well, people say things all the time that they believe to be true at the time, but when faced with the actuality of the statement realize that they spoke in error. I suppose it's not the perfect ideal, but nothing is. Somehow I doubt this decision has been easy for anyone on staff.

[Raistlin]

So you make a policy. Then when faced with a dilemma involving this policy you stop and rethink the policy, and then change it. How is that abandoning your morals? It's easy to say "I'd ban my grandmother for posting porn" when you don't have to do it. When you are put in that situation then you are able to evaluate it from a different perspective.
If that were all it was, then that would be that. However, it appeared very much like Staff kept to those values, and spouted them often to us members, until those values were actually challenged. How many times did Staff members tell us "post porn, get banned" and "the only person exempt from the rules is Cid" and "even if a staff member posted porn, they'd get banned" and "if I posted porn, I'd expect to get banned?" I could look up a good 20 quotes from a variety of staff members, all saying to that effect - and those would only be from the past six months or so. But then when Staff was put into a position where they actually had to do as they say, then they backed off? That just doesn't sound right.

Neither does the "borderline" image excuse. They admit that if anyone else had posted the image, they'd be banned, so it's obviously not borderline. But Kishi posted it, so now it's "borderline?" It's borderline only for Kishi, apparently, which sounds like they're using that as an excuse, because "we don't want to ban Kishi" won't fly.

And was it even discussed in Staff that Kishi be punished? Or was it "all or nothing?" Just doesn't seem right.

[eestlinc]

I think the whole "Anyone except Cid would be banned" was bluster. It's an exaggeration made because they figured noone on staff would ever be dumb enough to actually do it. I still don't understand how Kishi thought it would be a smart thing to do, but whatever.

[Raistlin]

I think the whole "Anyone except Cid would be banned" was bluster. It's an exaggeration made because they figured noone on staff would ever be dumb enough to actually do it. I still don't understand how Kishi thought it would be a smart thing to do, but whatever.
So they were intentionally lying to make a point? That doesn't sound any better to me than going back on their principles. Plus, I have a hard time believing Unne or RSL would exaggerate a point. And obviously D, Matt, and Leeza weren't. And I wouldn't have thought Daniel was exaggerating his point to Bleys and I, though I guess I was wrong on that point. Maybe you make a valid point: maybe some of the staff members never really considered the ramifications of their apparent values. Doesn't make it any less wrong, though.

[Nic]

I know I don't post here very often. I doubt most of the people here even know who I am anymore, aside from the #eoffers. But because of LJ and of course #eoff, I ended up here, reading this whole damn thread. ;)

I'd just like to know one thing. Maybe it's been said somewhere, but what the HELL was Kishi thinking? Everyone seems to agree that he meant to post the pic in question (which I've seen, and honestly I don't see how anyone could mistake it for "borderline"), and didn't do so with the intention of getting banned. So what was the purpose of posting it? Seeing as he's a CK, I think it's safe to say he should've known it wasn't suitable for the forums. So whahubbawha?

[Citizen Bleys]

I dunno, I saw the image, too--I don't think it was borderline, I think it was well over on the "OK" side of the line. There were no genitalia depicted, unless you call a random swirl of paint that looks more like a freshly-stirred cup of coffee than anything else "genitalia." Back when I was on staff, I wouldn't have banned freakin' Jacques for that, leave alone one of the longest-serving staff members in EoFF history.

And that "coward" comment made me lose a lot of respect for you, Del. But I guess you wouldn't care what a coward who resigned has to say anyways.

Oh by the way, I left specific instructions in my LJ not to burn down the freakin' internet while I was off in Halifax. The whole bloody internet except EoFF seems to be OK with that.

[Rainecloud]

EoFF = England in the 1800's. Eg - one giant farce.

Those in power look out for others who are their friends, and that's about it. The regular members who contribute and work hard to make this place great are either ignored or criticized. This has always been the EoFF way, as far as I can tell, and it's only gotten worse in recent years.

Hope you all sort your problems out, loves. :)

[Ashister]

New here obviously, though I have the pleasure of knowing Raist, Bleys, BoB, eest and others outside these fora. The stench of this conflict has been pretty apparent to me recently, despite the fact that I'm not an EoFFer, and I've finally sat down tonight and checked out what all the fuss is about.

Now I'm here to voice my support (for what it's worth) for ShlupQuack, BoB, Bleys, Yams, eest and the others who have supported Kishi in this thread and elsewhere. As someone who has moderated and administrated discussion fora in the past I feel that what was done to Kishi was unjust.

Rules and authority are necessary in real life to prevent real problems and protect real lives, that much is true. But the same cannot be said in a discussion forum, and to be a good authority figure in a forum, you can't take yourself, or the idea of a forum, too seriously. I think in in this case, Kishi was hurt because some were taking themselves and this forum business a bit too seriously. Like ShlupQuack said, get outside and find out what's actually important. This stuff certainly isn't. Not important enough to condone what happened.

The administrator/moderator status is there for good reason. Banning Kishi as an alternative to admitting that Peter and others probably shouldn't have been banned is NOT good reason. Its true that its unfair for Kishi to be extended this mercy when Peter and others weren't, but this silliness has to stop somewhere. Otherwise you'll lose more invaluable members - the lifeblood of this forum - in the future. You still claim to have the forum's interests in mind when you did this?

The insta-ban rule probably looked good when the rules were written up, but there comes a time where you have to realize: life's not black and white enough for no-exceptions uniformity to work all the time. Pornography = ban is a good idea, a good guideline, but snow penises and Masamune Shirow artwork? Give me a fricking break.

I think Kishi should get an apology for this silliness before you guys kill EoFF even more.

[Ultima Shadow]

I never bothered to read trough all the posts since this tread seems to grow at the speed of light... but like EEST said in an earlier post, this tread shows how important EoFF is to many members here. I'm not an exception. It may be hard to understand to some, but EoFF is a big and very important part of my life. I agree with both sides. I understand how BoB and Shlup feels about this and why they think Kishi shouldn't be banned. I, myself, really hates to see great members being banned just like that. But still... Raistlin, Big D and everyone else are not wrong either. It really IS unfair that Kishi should be able to do something like this without staying banned when any regular member would have stayed banned. No matter status, that's not fair.

The mods should be able to judge by themselves to some degree and not have to do exactly like the rules tells them to do all the time whenever they feel it's right or wrong. Still... they can't be completely free to do whatever they feel like and they can't just break the rules. In my opinion... Kishi should not be banned BUT the rules should also not be as strict as they are at the moment. There IS a difference betweene completely unacceptable, disscusting pornography and snow penis. When it comes to the later, I really think a warning should be enough... or maybe a 2 months ban. I'm sure not many people on EoFF really would find the picture peter got banned for posting is discussting at all. Ofcourse, it's not a very nice thing to do... but permanent banning? Seriously... chill out! If Kishi remains unbanned, then peter really should be unbanned as well. I'm saying this because I know how important EoFF is to some people. Some of you may just say: "There's alot of other forums out there, get over it!" But it's really not that easy for those who love this place and have alot of important friends here. I'm against Kishi being banned, not because of who he is, but because he don't deserve to be banned for what he did. But neither did peter and some other banned members.

Argh... I just can't make up my mind and I probably just sound confusing... but I'm not a ban-suporter in any case as long as it's not a member who starts spamming and acting offensive 1min after joining.

My only solid opinion is: unbann everyone who was unfairly banned and didn't deserve permanent banning!!! :greenie:

I really hope I make sense... which I probably don't... but whatever. :cool:

[edczxcvbnm]

I think Kishi should get an apology for this silliness before you guys kill EoFF even more.

Or we could kill it. Lets try something new. Who knows...maybe some good will come of it!

[FightClubFan#47]

Im Honestly surprised they didn't make Kishi Admin. Hell, I'm surprised they didnt kill Cid and give Kishi is place.

[edczxcvbnm]

We don't know that. For all we know the forces that be could very well be plotting.

[Psychotic]

I dunno, I saw the image, too--I don't think it was borderline, I think it was well over on the "OK" side of the line. There were no genitalia depicted, unless you call a random swirl of paint that looks more like a freshly-stirred cup of coffee than anything else "genitalia." Back when I was on staff, I wouldn't have banned freakin' Jacques for that, leave alone one of the longest-serving staff members in EoFF history.I've seen it, and I would definitely say it's worse than a snow penis. But c'est la vie.

[Raistlin]

The administrator/moderator status is there for good reason. Banning Kishi as an alternative to admitting that Peter and others probably shouldn't have been banned is NOT good reason.
Of course it's not. But banning him because it's the right thing to do according to EoFF's values and principles for the past 5 1/2 years is. I couldn't give a damn about Peter.


As someone who has moderated and administrated discussion fora in the past I feel that what was done to Kishi was unjust.
Unjust? He broke the rules, he's responsible for his own actions, and, according to what Staff has said on numerous occasions, staff members are subject to the rules just as much as other members. You may have staffed on other forums, but other forums have different rules and policies.
It was <i>unjust</i> not to even consider punishing Kishi for breaking the rules - not even a suspension or anything. But a freebie because the Staff didn't want to punish him.


But the same cannot be said in a discussion forum, and to be a good authority figure in a forum, you can't take yourself, or the idea of a forum, too seriously. I think in in this case, Kishi was hurt because some were taking themselves and this forum business a bit too seriously. Like ShlupQuack said, get outside and find out what's actually important. This stuff certainly isn't. Not important enough to condone what happened.
NOT banning Kishi because it's only a forum and thus it doesn't matter if the rules are bent is <i>not</i> a good reason. If it's "only a forum" then his contributions to it hardly matter, and it wouldn't really matter if he was banned. Your side says "get a life" because we take EoFF too seriously, well, if you're willing to throw basic rules and principles aside for Kishi, then I think you're taking things too seriously as well.


The administrator/moderator status is there for good reason.
Status? You talk as if being a moderator is a privilege. It's a responsibility.


The insta-ban rule probably looked good when the rules were written up, but there comes a time where you have to realize: life's not black and white enough for no-exceptions uniformity to work all the time. Pornography = ban is a good idea, a good guideline, but snow penises and Masamune Shirow artwork? Give me a fricking break.
Wait...now you're defending Peter?

Oh, and I agree by the way. However, an exception should not be made for one person where one wasn't made for another. Period.



I think Kishi should get an apology for this silliness before you guys kill EoFF even more.
According to many others, including ex-staff, we're not the ones killing EoFF.


I dunno, I saw the image, too--I don't think it was borderline, I think it was well over on the "OK" side of the line.
You're the <i>only</i> person who's said that. The Staff admitted that anyone else would be banned for it...but not Kishi? I would agree whole-heartedly if the image would be okay for <i>everyone</i> to post.

Staff made it clear time and again that <i>no one</i> was an exception to the rules outside of Cid - both administrators and moderators alike. But then all of a sudden that doesn't apply?
Staff said the image was "border-line," however, also admitted that anyone else who posted that same image would be banned. So obviously, the image is not "border-line", it's only that way for Kishi. Which isn't right.
Staff members accept the responsibility of upholding the rules. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, especially staff members. Saying that people who've been around long enough are not responsible for their own actions is absurd.

This'll be the last post I make on the subject. Why bother? According to Staff, the members' opinions don't matter. Well, at least, that's what Shlup's said over and over again.

[edczxcvbnm]

This'll be the last post I make on the subject. Why bother? According to Staff, the members' opinions don't matter. Well, at least, that's what Shlup's said over and over again.

But as they have proven it doesn't matter what they say over and over again because they will just change their minds on the matter when they want to.

[Flamethrower]

I saw the picture. I honestly don't think it was that bad, and like Bleys said, I wouldn't permanently ban <i>anybody</i> for posting it. Then again, I also wouldn't permanently ban anyone for posting a snow penis, but hey...

I like the idea of temporary bans. I think something like a three month ban would be a fair punishment for people who post "borderline" porn. I hardly see it fair to kick any member, whether it be a long term staffer like Kishi or a newbie like Peter, permanently out of our community for making a mistake.

[Ultima Shadow]

I like the idea of temporary bans. I think something like a three month ban would be a fair punishment for people who post "borderline" porn. I hardly see it fair to kick any member, whether it be a long term staffer like Kishi or a newbie like Peter, permanently out of our community for making a mistake.
*agrees*

[edczxcvbnm]

Good luck with temp bans. I have been pushing for that for years. They say "We give them warnings and for everything else such as porn it is an insta-ban. No exceptions."

Then again since their word now means nothing maybe we can get those temp bans I have been wanting.

[RSL]

The image isn't borderline. It's not very bad at all. I wouldn't want anyone banned for it. The snow penis might have been borderline except for the fact that it was very realistic.

Maybe I'm playing favorites but I don't think I am.

[Rye]

I saw the picture too. I'd say a snow penis isn't as bad as realistic tentacle rape. But that's just my opinion.

[Kirobaito]

Concerning the whole Peter-Kishi thing:

First off, I don't think Kishi should be banned, as I don't think the image was that bad. But neither was Peter's. I've changed such an opinion as more information has been made available to the public. My biggest issue is that Peter, as I have grown to know him and enjoy his company, was not a newbie. He was a member worthy of becoming an oldbie, eventually. He was not an idiot. He didn't think his image was inappropriate, so I think an exception should have been made. I think Kishi's image was far worse than Peter's.

Staff members never got to know him, and thus never game him a chance here. That's my biggest beef.

[Citizen Bleys]

How the bloody fuck did this turn into a thread about Peter? Give it up people, that issue was over so long ago that even WesLY doesn't remember it.

[edczxcvbnm]

I don't know. But I sure as hell don't give a damn about Peter or Kawaii. This is beyond that to me.

[Psychotic]

How the bloody smurf did this turn into a thread about Peter? Give it up people, that issue was over so long ago that even WesLY doesn't remember it.Because the two are practically identical situations with very two different outcomes. And no, I will not give it up. I don't give up on friends.

[crono_logical]

NOTE: This is my last post in this thread unless I REALLY have something to say. Others have said what I tried to say and I feel that continuing to bitch is getting nowhere. *I am not speaking only of the people who want Kishi to stay, but everyone; including myself*. Make your decision and PM me when we have this thing resolved or something important happens, otherwise I won't even be looking at this thread.No one's obliged to do that :p And since you're not gonna be looking at this...

*mocks behind your back* :monster:

[Odaisé Gaelach]

I'm all for the side that just doesn't care one way or another.

It's been said, it's been done, we've all bought the T-shirt. Now, let's get on with our lives people...

[-N-]

<s>Since no one reads these...

*spam*

Welcome back.</s>

Knock it off. ~Shlup
>:O

[Ashister]

According to many others, including ex-staff, we're not the ones killing EoFF.

Expanding on my "life is not black and white" comment before, I'd wager to say it's a combination of everyone.


This'll be the last post I make on the subject. Why bother? According to Staff, the members' opinions don't matter. Well, at least, that's what Shlup's said over and over again.

It's true. We can argue until we're blue in the face, and we can argue well, but we won't find each others' arguments at all convincing because we've already made up our minds on the subject. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

[Flamethrower]

It's been said, it's been done, we've all bought the T-shirt.

Ironically, I was just thinking how someone should create a line of "I was there during the Kishi scandal!" T-Shirts. They'd make millions.

[MecaKane]

Kishi's friends: "a realistic sexual drawing with no visable sexual parts isn't as bad as a realistic sexual sculpture with explicit parts!"
<s>Peter's</s>Controversy's friends, and Raist: "A snow penis isn't as bad as a realistic hentai drawing!"
Now it seems the staff of this forum believe one thing, and not the other. Murder was the only one(I think :confused: ) who said anyone else would've gotten banned for Kishi's picture, and I recall him saying he was conservative on the matter of sexuality, (I remembered because he's from California and California is a den of sexual depravity) so that's probably where he was comming from with that. And the other staff members that don't agree have all quit because it's all such a goddamn injustice.
So the staff have agreed, or agreed to go along with the rest, that the picture was ok to post, so we're all going to have to deal with it.

I think that half of the active members should be banned, but the staff doesn't. I get along, and so can YOU!

[edczxcvbnm]

If the picture is okay to post then I would like to see it posted because I have not seen it.

[MecaKane]

Well not ok to post in the sense that they'll make it the new banner, but ok to post in the sense that they won't ban you, but they'll remove the image. Like what happened with a certain horrible flash movie that was posted in Eoeo one time.
I guess. Y'know, it makes sense.

The same way you can get around the swear filter and only have your posts edited and not get banned. :love:

[Roogle]

Everyone can discuss all the issues as much as you want, but I don't think anyone has actually pointed out to any of you that it works a lot differently than you think. The rules are a guideline and can be written over at any time by a number of different people, prominent members or not.

It's not commonly seen and it's not commonly done, so I don't think anyone besides the current staff and a few others know what I'm talking about. You're seeing it right now, and I'm surprised at the backlash. Do you all really think that no one listens to the actual suggestions and that you have no influence on anything? If that's what you think, then I think you've probably contributed nothing of any importance.

Everything and anything can or will be changed if it has to change, and, as far as I know, it isn't done solely to cause controversy.

[Raistlin]

I'm making this post here because it doesn't involve the Kishi controversy. :p


It's not commonly seen and it's not commonly done, so I don't think anyone besides the current staff and a few others know what I'm talking about. You're seeing it right now, and I'm surprised at the backlash. Do you all really think that no one listens to the actual suggestions and that you have no influence on anything? If that's what you think, then I think you've probably contributed nothing of any importance.
When Shlup says, "It doesn't matter what you think," over and over again, then yeah, I kinda get that feeling.

[Roogle]

Oh, well, I can't speak for her! We're different, but pretty much the same.

[The Captain]

So, the rules were changed? Perhaps the problem was that most people weren't informed until after the decision had been made.

Take care all.

[eestlinc]

Rule changes make life interesting.

[Citizen Bleys]

Because the two are practically identical situations with very two different outcomes. And no, I will not give it up. I don't give up on friends.

They're not identical at all. Kishi's image wasn't even borderline even to the kind of ultra-consevative that would make a "Nazi" like me shake their head, and Peter's was a realistic-looking phallus. Additionally, there's the difference between a two-day n00b and one of the longest-serving members of EoFF staff who has probably made a more significant impact on EoFF than any other member, and I include both myself and Unne in that statement.

Goddammit, Kishi's earned a reprieve, even if the issue really was "borderline" instead of well over on the OK side of the line. Peter earned precisely bugger.

[The Captain]

"Kishi's earned a reprieve"

I suppose the real question now is, who else has earned a reprieve?

Take care all.

[eestlinc]

Forgiveness is the greatest gift that we can give.

[Raistlin]

eest: exactly, so why not forgive everybody?


They're not identical at all. Kishi's image wasn't even borderline even to the kind of ultra-consevative that would make a "Nazi" like me shake their head, and Peter's was a realistic-looking phallus. Additionally, there's the difference between a two-day n00b and one of the longest-serving members of EoFF staff who has probably made a more significant impact on EoFF than any other member, and I include both myself and Unne in that statement.

Goddammit, Kishi's earned a reprieve, even if the issue really was "borderline" instead of well over on the OK side of the line. Peter earned precisely bugger.
According to what Staff has said for the past 5 years, there is <i>not</i> a difference between a two-day n00b and a Knight - well, at least, according to what images they can post before getting banned. And there shouldn't be.

And how does one "earn" a reprieve? Have I earned a reprieve?

And you should realize that you're the only person who views the image as "ok' for everyone. Everyone else has stated that it's either banworthy or oonly "borderline" in the case of Kishi.

[eestlinc]

I thought it was ok, but that's not my decision. I'd also be happy to forgive everyone, but that is also not my decision.

[RSL]

Not true Raistlin. I didn't think the image was banworthy no matter who posted it.

[Del Murder]

I'll forgive anyone...for a price.