Is this a joke?/Sony PS2 Controllers are Illegal!

[Hawkeye]

http://slashdot.org/

No, I dont visit this site, it was directed to me by nik0tine who does.

jk

But like it says, is this a joke or what? Have you guys heard anything about this?

[Black Mage]

Yes, it's real. There was a thread about this some time back, before the verdict was reached.

Originally, both Microsoft and Sony were being sued, though Microsoft settled, and ended up owning a large portion of the company sueing them, if I recall.

I guess Sony opted to fight it, and there we have the result.

The point was originally mentioned in the other thread concerning Nintendo. You should look that thread up; certainly a good read.

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

So if they can't sell them anymore... what are they going to do?

[Endless]

They appealed the decision, which prevents the suspension while the appeal is being heard.

See this article (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D893OTH80.htm?campaign_id=apn_tech_down).

[Black Mage]

And here:

"Today in Oakland, California, Sony lost a patent infringement court battle with Immersion Corp pertaining to Sony's use of Dual Shock and Dual Shock 2 controllers in its PlayStation and PlayStation 2 consoles. Sony has been ordered to pay Immersion $90.7 million in damages and is also expected to stop selling the patent infringing PlayStation and PlayStation 2 systems, as well as over forty games that infringe on Immersion's patent.

The case revolves around US patents 6,275,213 and 6,424,333 which cover "haptic feedback," which entails the use of computer-controlled vibrating motors to provide tactile feedback to the user of a program.

Following the ruling, Sony was granted a temporary stay of injunction while the case pends appeal that will subsequently allow Sony to sell the offending consoles and games until the appeal is resolved. A full listing of the titles affected, with RPGs bolded, is as follows:

# A Bug's Life
# Amplitude
# Ape Escape
# Atlantis: The Lost Empire
# Bloody Roar 2
# Cool Boarders 3
# Cool Boarders 4
# Cool Boarders 2001
# Crash Bash
# Crash Team Racing
# Drakan: The Ancients' Gate
# Emperor's New Groove
# Extermination
# FantaVision
# Final Fantasy X
# Formula One 2001
# The Getaway
# Gran Turismo
# Gran Turismo 2
# Gran Turismo 3
# Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
# Grand Theft Auto 3
# Grind Session
# ICO
# Jak & Daxter
# Kinetica
# Kingdom Hearts
# Legend of Dragoon
# The Mark of Kri
# Medal of Honor Frontline
# Medievil 2
# Metal Gear Solid 2
# Monster's, Inc.
# Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racoonus
# SOCOM Navy Seals
# Speed Punks
# Spyro: Ripto's Rage
# Spyro: Year of the Dragon
# Stuart Little 2
# Syphon Filter 2
# Syphon Filter 3
# Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
# Twisted Metal: Black
# Twisted Metal 4
# Twisted Metal: Small Brawl
# Treasure Planet
# War of the Monsters.

In early 2002, Immersion filed suit against both Sony and Microsoft for patent infringement, that resulted in Microsoft settling out of court in mid-2003 for the sum of $26 million to license the technology and buying a portion of Immersion in the process. RPGamer will bring you the latest when circumstances surrounding this case evolve."

Source (http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q1-2005/032705a.html)

[Daggers64]

As of now, Sony is not allowed to sell the PS2 Controllers any more, if they contain the rumble feature!!!

You can thank Microsoft and Immersion corp for this.
You see, back when Rumble controllers where being put into the controllers for Xbox and PS2, Immersion found out they're idea/copywrite was stolen, and they weren't getting payed for it... sooo they sued microsoft... and i guess they lost, but then microsoft bought (a percent of) Immersion corp, and then took up the lawsuit against Sony!

Well anyway, Sony just lost the lawsuit... so now they must stop selling the controllers, or take out the rumble feature... and they have to pay $90.7 million in damages to Immersion Corp. for patent infringement!

And since Microsoft owns Immersion, they can tell Sony that they can't have rumble feature anymore... which is going to be a big blow to Sony.

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000343027206/
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=4&id=332037
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/14/news_6116423.html

I feel sorry for Sony... then again, I feel they deserved it, if they stole Immersion's ideas... lol @_@ although, if microsoft also stole it, i donno how to feel. XD

[Tidus Andronicus]

Wow, Thats interesting... I never would have expected this. o.o

I like the PS2... but wow. LOL

Smart job on Microsoft's part. Now they have a huge advantage over Sony, unless of course Sony just designs a new way to rumble.lol

eh... Good thing I already have the controller!

Hmmm does this effect Nintendo at all? Besides give them more of an advantage. XD

[Old Manus]

Curse you, Microsoft! CURSE YOU!

[Erdrick Holmes]

HAH! Take THAT!

[edczxcvbnm]

Yeah. Sony is full of morons. Microsoft could do that but it really would not matter. Sony just needs to come up with a new way to make the controller vibrate. I forget how Nintendo does it but I think they do it differently and own a copyright on that method thus are exempt from this law suit.

[Tidus Andronicus]

Everything Microsoft touches becomes their's... by ways of the legal system. XD

[Necronopticous]

You've got to be kidding me...

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Threads merged.

[Daggers64]

Maybe this will force Sony to be more creative. XD

I'm sure it will completely push back the PS3, cause they need to redesign a few things now. lol And I think they'd have to update the Developement Kits, which they've given to game companies... now they have to give them a new version once they design the new rumble... if they redesign it anyway.

[XxSephirothxX]

I have no real love for Sony or Microsoft as companies...

So, go Nintendo!

[Tidus Andronicus]

If anything, this will give Nintendo a little more Market. XD
Maybe Sony can buy the right to use the Rumble Nintendo uses. XD I hope if that happens Nintendo puts a big price tag on it. lol

Where on Slashdot does it have an artical about this??
Can someone post a direct link? o.O

[Super Christ]

Awesome.

You know what would be hilarious? If PS and PS2 sales were actually halted through this whole fiasco.

[Erdrick Holmes]

Well, what are current PS2 Shock controllers gonna do? Can they keep them?

[TasteyPies]

I am an owner of (1)Dualshock2 and (2)Dualshock controlers. When can I expect the Microsoft SWAT team to kick my door down? I need time to prepare the traps and laser guided robots. Preparing my evil laugh wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[Ultima Shadow]

I am an owner of (1)Dualshock2 and (2)Dualshock controlers. When can I expect the Microsoft SWAT team to kick my door down? I need time to prepare the traps and laser guided robots. Preparing my evil laugh wouldn't be a bad idea either.
XD! :D

Why not just surrond your house with landmines?

[strawberryman]

XD! :D

Why not just surrond your house with landmines?
Oh, i've tried that before, and it was'nt very pretty.
Damn mailman.

[Masamune·1600]

Preparing my evil laugh wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I personally think it would be pretty hard to out-evil Microsoft.

[Maxico]

Wait so not only do they have to recall all of their controllers but pretty much all of there major games as well. Ouch.

I guess they'll probably come up with something else. To be honest the rumble feature of the pads isnt that great. Sure it makes it more emmersive but there must be a better way of giving output from a pad.

[Xalioniaf]

"Hello, Sony. Thank you for comming to my house to confisc-I mean refund my controllers, but unfortunatly, all of my Dualshock 2 controllers are broken. Too bad, huh? I'll send you off with GCN-PS2 controller cord converters. Good day."

That's my speech if they come to my door. Anyway, do converters work with rumble? Maybe Sony can create a new company that sells GCN controllers and make some profit :P.

[MecaKane]

Yah, because everyone wants to play on those gastly GameCube controlers, and buy systems that don't come with controlers.
They'll figure something out and it'll be kickass.
How exactly do only those games break copyright? Do they go into explicit detail about the rumbling?

[Navydav]

I own alot of those games and own two of those controllers. So what I am I supposed to do? I am worried now.

[Nii]

Who uses the rumble feature anyway? All it does is anoyingly vibrate your hands.

[Tidus Andronicus]

Actually, I talked to someone today. Apearantly, Nintendo also had to licence the Rumble feature from Immersion. Of course, Nintendo already did, so they are safe from the lawsuit.

Immersion owns the intelectual property present in all force feadback peripherals.
That means that if Sony wants the rumble feature, they have to pay Immersion (partly owned by Microsoft) to use it. And since Microsoft is a major share-holder, Sony is at their mercy.

[Palindrome]

Allow me to demonstrate my feeble grasp of US law. If I were Sony I would try to get the patent invalidated by proving it is a common sense idea. A computer controlled centrifuge with an off set weight to create a vibration is not a new idea. Any highschool chem. lab has one for shaking chemicals. The same thing is used to counter vibrations as well. The concept is very commonplace and should not legally be patented.

[Tidus Andronicus]

From what I've heard, its not just rumble that Immersion owns the patent too.
Its ALL forms of force feedback peripherals.

I'm not sure how they can own all rights to it, but I'm guessing they created the idea of force feedback, or something.

Even If Sony wanted to create force feedback, in the form of resistance on a button or joystick (say like if your character is pushing something, so its harder to push the button/move the joystick) Then thats a form of force feedback, and they still have to pay Immersion to use it.

But I'm not too sure about all this. Its just based on what I heard.

[BatChao]

I actually think Immersion just owns the patent to one kind of force feedback motor. I believe it's the kind with two motors side by side and probably other various features. These are the motors used by Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo has their own rumble feature (probably developed when they created the Rumble Pak for N64), so they are exempt from this lawsuit.

Also, if I remember correctly, MS and Sony were sued at the same time, but MS opted to settle out of court. They paid the company like $20 million or something and bought some of their stock or something like that. Sony opted to go to court and this is the result.

[MecaKane]

"Oh, oh. I own controlers and those games what'm I gonna dooooooo?"

Nothing! God. What do you think Sony is paying for? They're compensating Immersion for you buying their /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif, no one's going to take anything from you. They can't fault any customers for buying something that Sony shouldn't have been selling.

[Navydav]

But if they quit making the Dual Shock controller, does that mean the games that suppport it won't work anymore? And does this have anything to do with using the joystick to move characters, etc around because I love the Analog Function.

[Endless]

- It's the rumble feature that's at stake
- Nintendo licensed from them before the suits, I think for the GC, since the N64 used a speperate device you'd plug into the controller
- MS, settled out of court and in the mean time bought a little part of that company
- Depite all the headlines, Sony cann still sell PS2s, PSs, controllers and the games listed. During the appeal, the order is suspended.
- There is still a long way before it will end. Sony said they were ready to go to the Supreme Court if necessary
- The first patents filed by Immersion were around 1995 if my memory serves me right.

[crazybayman]

yep......no worries here.

When the "$hit really hits the fan" down the road, Sony will have a solution. Whether its a new controller thats compatible to the previous dual shock games, or a settlement with Immersion, or whatever, we'll all still be able to play our games. :)

[Daggers64]

Apearantly, Sony was ordered to stop selling the PS2, the controller, and the games that use the rumble feature.
The reason being, Immersion owns the rights to all forms of rumble feedback... as well as other forms of feedback.
Sony can't even have the technology in their PS2 that allows for the Rumble feature. @_@
So, there isn't even a chance that Sony can make their own rumble, because it's still belongs to Immersion. =/
Even Nintendo had to pay Immersion to add rumble to their controller.

This means that if Sony wants to keep the rumble feature, they HAVE to pay Immersion for it.

At least for now, there is the appeal... Donno how far it will go, cause I dont know the details of the case. =/

[Old Manus]

This may greatly increase the prices of Sony goods.

[YukiKiro]

for the love of- they're suing on an offset weight that spins around thus creating a rumble effect. you can put a patent on science? since when? sometimes the world never ceases to amaze me.

[BatChao]

If I was a small company and had a genuine case and could potentially make millions, I'd sue too...

[MecaKane]

you can put a patent on science? since when?
Since patents were invented, I'm sure. Drugs, cars, electronics, etc etc etc.

Sony would sue the /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif out of you if you sold something that used their technology that they developed themselves to play their games. And I think they tried to, with Bleem, only it was found that Bleem's bios was one they developed it themselves or something.

[Big D]

I think it's a true testament to Microsoft's pathicness (pathetability? pathetitude?) that the only way they can gain an advantage over their competition is by way of lawsuit. Not by being a better company with a better product, but through another typically trivial civil action. Damn US legal system with no 'floodgates' principle...

Since vibrating controllers have existed since N64 days (admittedly, the Rumble Pack was a slightly different system) there should be some means to counter this lawsuit. I mean, imagine if the makers of Pong decided to copyright the joystick. Practically every console ever (except for the Sega MS/MD and the NES/SNES) would be affected.

This is like that time Wizards of the Coast (makers of Magic: The Gathering) said they were going to copyright card games. They didn't succeed, did they?

[TasteyPies]

Practically every console ever (except for the Sega MS/MD and the NES/SNES) would be affected.

The NES had a joystick-like controller available :D

[BatChao]

Plus Pong used a wheel... not a joystick, but I get your point. I dont know why some of you guys are attacking MS for this... it's not like they told Sony to use the patented technology... don't forget that MS was sued too. They just settled out of court, which Sony probably could have done as well. Why they chose not to is beyond me.

[Destai]

So immersion owns anything that rumbles?

[Big D]

What irks me is that several companies develop the same technology, then years later someone else uses it and decides to patent it. After its already in widespread circulation, and even when they didn't invent it themselves.

I haven't studied intellectual property law (yet), but allowing someone to patent someone else's invention and then using that patent to attack competitors who used the product before it was patented just seems wrong.

[Daggers64]

Only reason we blaim MS on this, is that they bought stock in Immersion after they settled, so that they could controll and gain money off Immersion. Therefor, MS will most likely make Sony pay a ridiculiously large amount of money to use the Rumble feature.

[Endless]

Microsoft has no way to influence the decision of immersion (they don't have a majority of the shares, by far). Sony, even if it bought 51% of the shares, wouldn't have that power either, because there are laws protecting the small shareholders preventing that. The difference is here that MS played it safe (settle + get shares to get a little out of it), while Sony is trying to strongarm its way out.

Also, the first patents filed were in 1995, before the N64 was out.

[Big D]

Microsoft has no way to influence the decision of immersion (they don't have a majority of the shares, by far). Sony, even if it bought 51% of the shares, wouldn't have that power either, because there are laws protecting the small shareholders preventing that. The difference is here that MS played it safe (settle + get shares to get a little out of it), while Sony is trying to strongarm its way out.

Also, the first patents filed were in 1995, before the N64 was out.Well I'll be jiggered. It certainly pays to know all the facts.
Stupid media never report on legal matters properly :mad:

[Old Manus]

I now officially despise Microsoft. I was patient before, but this time you've gone too far.

[YukiKiro]

but wait a second, 1995? patents only last about 7 years. that would mean the patents would have expired by now.

[Endless]

Patents last for 20 years, starting from the date of filing. That said, you can morally condemn Immersion for pulling a "submarine" (*), but legally, they're in their right.

(*) A patent submarine is this: you file a patent, wait a few years to see if it becomes commercially viable; if yes, sue whoever is using the invention commercially. Most of the times, I think it ends in settlements, unless you feel confident the patent shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

Regarding the rumble fedback, Sony will have to demonstate that, and there are forms of prior arts (arcade machines, for example), but so far, it hasn't convinced judges that these patents were invalid.

And I still don't see what you have against MS. They didn't start it, and they don't have the power to stop it.

[Rase]

(*) A patent submarine is this: you file a patent, wait a few years to see if it becomes commercially viable; if yes, sue whoever is using the invention commercially. Most of the times, I think it ends in settlements, unless you feel confident the patent shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

Wow, handy to know. Learn something new everyday.

So basically, yeah, if Sony had payed to license the technology, they would have saved like $70 million? That's is why the path of least resistance usually appeals to me.

Also, I too would like to know why this is suddenly Microsofts fault? So since they made a smart buisness move and Sony didn't, they're evil?

[YukiKiro]

ah i see. but pulling a patent submarine is an underhanded tecnique(sp), and in the future if people know this it can hurt the company more than help it. So why do something that you know may help in the short run but ultimatly ruin you in the long run?