MGS plot *Warning: Spoilers Abound*

[Excelsior]

i thought id discuss the MGS storyline, and see if i really know what the hell is going on. first off, i personally loved every second of all the Solid games, even though thats a very unpopular opinion. but, onto the story. well, actually, i dont really have much to say right now, but if anybody wants to ask something, i pretty much *think* i know everything about it, and if anyone has any questions/plotholes, post them here, and ill do my best to answer them. and, if i remember somethings i didnt quite understand, ill post them again. basically, just put anything u want to discuss about it in here.

[Maxico]

Ok, if big boss what cloned in his late 50's and at the end of MGS3 it says he was cloned in 1972 and the game takes place in 1964 wouldnt that make him around 50 years old during the game?

[Old Manus]

What is Ocelot doing in the Patriots?
What is with the whole La Li Lu Le Lo thing?

For the record, I have yet to finish MGS3.

[hybrid theory]

What is Ocelot doing in the Patriots?
What is with the whole La Li Lu Le Lo thing?

For the record, I have yet to finish MGS3.


You should do the following things:
a) Watch the ending.
b) La Li Lu Le Lo is a codename for someone you meet it up in Operation: Snake Eater.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Big Boss is in his mid-thirties in 1964, which should put him in his mid-forties when he was cloned in 1972. Liquid simply had the wrong information when he claimed Big Boss was cloned in his late fifties.

Like Tatyana, Ocelot has been groomed for being a Patriot spy prettymuch his entire life.

The La Li Lu Le Lo is just a codename for the Patriots.

[Lindy]

Actually, Big Boss WAS fifty when he was cloned, but Kojima himself said he changed the timeline a little in order to make Snake Eater work better.

Ocelot and EVA (I refuse to call her Tatyana on the grounds that, she was lying when she said it) were raised by The Philosophers, note how EVA calls herself a "Child of the Philosophers", The Patriots were an offshoot from The Philosophers.

Anyway, this pretty much covers the plot :
http://img.penny-arcade.com/2001/20011130l.gif

[Dreddz]

Never really got the storyline but I enjoyed the game

[Cless]

1. In MGS3, did Eva have feelings for Snake at all? So, it would then mean that she put her mission above her feelings? Or did she just completely and utterly pull the wool over his eyes?
2. In MGS2, who are the patriots if it is revealed at the end that they have been dead for 100 (I think) years? Did they even exist, were they all just AI?

[Maxico]

Ok I got one. At the end of MGS2 Otacon says that the patriots died 100 years ago but in MGS3 Boss says that the last of the American philosophers (aka the patriots) died in the 1930's. Now seeing as MGS2 takes place in the 2010's (can you even say that?) Isnt he around 20 years off?

[Dreddz]

Now seeing as MGS2 takes place in the 2010's (can you even say that?) Isnt he around 20 years off?

It was set in 2010 I never knew that or have I misread the post ?

[Maxico]

2010'S By that I mean somewhere inbetween 2010 and 2019. Im pretty sure you cant use that below the 20's but I couldnt think of an alternative. I couldnt remember the exact dates it was set in.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Actually, Big Boss WAS fifty when he was cloned, but Kojima himself said he changed the timeline a little in order to make Snake Eater work better.Yes, therefore, in the present condition of the story, Liquid had the wrong information when he said Big Boss was cloned while in his late fifties (not fifty).
EVA (I refuse to call her Tatyana on the grounds that, she was lying when she said it)I go with Tatyana because, even though it's not her real name, it makes for less of a headache when you want to have discussions about the real EVA she was posing as.
1. In MGS3, did Eva have feelings for Snake at all? So, it would then mean that she put her mission above her feelings? Or did she just completely and utterly pull the wool over his eyes?Nobody knows but her, really.
2. In MGS2, who are the patriots if it is revealed at the end that they have been dead for 100 (I think) years? Did they even exist, were they all just AI?The Patriots are not AI; they are a real group of shadowy government guys who rule the United States. All that "we are not human" talk near the end of MGS2 was just them stroking their egos because they're so above it all.

Now, then, in MGS2, in 2009, Otacon states that the Wisemen's Committee, the twelve guys who head the Patriots, have been dead for "100 years." However, in MGS3 it's revealed that that referred to the original Wisemen's Committee; they were all dead by 1930, and there have been new members succeeded their positions every since. That's actually only a 79-year difference, but it's perfectly acceptable considering other approximated declarations. (Solidus declares that George Washington became president "200 years ago," but that actually happened in 1789, 220 years before 2009. Also, in MGS, Liquid says that he and Snake are meeting after "30 long years," when it turned they were both 33 at the time.)

[Wiegrahf42]

I was wondering if Colonel Cambell in MGS2 was just the Arsenal Gear AI what happened to the real Colonel? Also Rose specifically tailored her appearenced and personality to get Jack to fall for her, she is real, but what about the very messed up CODEC conversations at the end of the game, was that her or Arsenal Gear? Are Solidus and Jack blood relatives like Big Boss and Snake or is Solidus Just Jack's mentor? It seems as if the entire big shell project was set up just to build Arsenal Gear and to form the S3 system. But what exactly is the S3. Ocelot mentioned something about it being a training program to shape any solider into Solid Snake. Last (this is more opinion then anything else) Since Jack underwent the S3 program, and managed to defeat Solidus Snake who was supposed to be the Superior of the three brothers, does this mean Jack is the strongest of protagonists? big boss>Solid Snake> Solidus Snake> Jack (I know everyone hates Jack but...)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

I was wondering if Colonel Cambell in MGS2 was just the Arsenal Gear AI what happened to the real Colonel?Campbell was pulled out of retirement for the first MGS. After that, we went back into retirement. He deserves it.
Also Rose specifically tailored her appearenced and personality to get Jack to fall for her, she is real, but what about the very messed up CODEC conversations at the end of the game, was that her or Arsenal Gear?Rose is a real person. After she tells Raiden that she's pregnant, though, she's cut off from him, and the Rose you talk to after that is just the Arsenal Gear AI; of course, during the conversation on top of Federal Hall, it's the Patriots speaking through the AI. The real Rose shows up again in the ending.
Are Solidus and Jack blood relatives like Big Boss and Snake or is Solidus Just Jack's mentor?Solidus is just Raiden's adoptive father. He even tells him that he killed his real parents. He is responsible for giving him the name "Jack," though.
It seems as if the entire big shell project was set up just to build Arsenal Gear and to form the S3 system. But what exactly is the S3. Ocelot mentioned something about it being a training program to shape any solider into Solid Snake.S3 doesn't stand for Solid Snake Simulation, nor was its purpose to mold someone into acting like Solid Snake. Ocelot had the wrong information.

S3 really stands for Selection for Societal Sanity. The purpose of Arsenal Gear was to be a fortress to protect the AI named GW that would control the flow of all digital information. However, the Patriots needed proof that, even under the most extreme circumstances, even a paranoid and uncertain person--like, say, Raiden--would completely trust what GW was telling him. Now, the most extreme circumstances in recent memory were those of Solid Snake's mission to Shadow Moses Island, so the Patriots pulled some strings in a very elaborate way to create a real-life reprise of the events of Shadow Moses. If GW--in this case posing as Colonel Campbell, and later, Rose, as well--could get Raiden to believe it and follow it to the completion of the mission, the Plan would have been a success. Unfortunately for the Patriots, Emma Emmerich's computer virus succeeded in screwed up the GW AI, allowing Raiden to realize what was going on, although everything still more or less went according to their plan.

Even thought GW was basically ruined, the Patriots were able to communicate with Raiden while he was standing on Federal Hall through a backup AI named JFK, which was housed in a backup Arsenal Gear.
Last (this is more opinion then anything else) Since Jack underwent the S3 program, and managed to defeat Solidus Snake who was supposed to be the Superior of the three brothers, does this mean Jack is the strongest of protagonists? big boss>Solid Snake> Solidus Snake> Jack (I know everyone hates Jack but...)Yeah, that's more of a matter of opinion. You could debate all day about who's the most able out of the Snakes+Raiden.

[Excelsior]

i have kind of a question. now that we know about all the patriots and weird crap, what do you think the next metal gear is going to be about
(assuming we still play as solid snake after MGS2)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

All we know about MGS4 so far:
It's in development for the next generation of consoles--probably PS3.
Kenichiro Imaizumi is producing it; Hideo Kojima is the executive producer this time.
It will feature Solid Snake.
There will be "no place to hide." Considering this is a series with gameplay that focuses chiefly upon stealth, you really have to wonder what that means.

[Cless]

My goodness, you certainly know your stuff Kawaii Ryûkishi! That tied up a lot of loose ends for me.

[Old Manus]

Yes, it takes a while to get the hang of, but after 2-3 playthroughs, I got the hang of it.

One thing though, If the computer in Arsenal Gear was called GW, and the one talking to Raiden at Federal Hall was called JFK, that would mean that the patriots have a number of computers who are all named after Presidents.

I managed to learn most of what has been said here by reading a very heavy going - but spectacular essay on GameFaqs.

[Excelsior]

actually, im wouldnt really care if the next metal gear wasnt stealth focused. i mean, i usually just run in and blow everything to smithereens, which i find to be more fun the sneaking around all the time. thats why i hate splinter cell so much.

[Old Manus]

I actually would prefer it going back to stealth and all that. One of the best things about MGS1 was that you would actually have to sneak past every guard. In MGS2 the arrival of the tranq. gun and the first person aim meant that you could kill every guard and pretty much go through the game like any other FPS.

In MGS3, the disappearance of the radar meant that it was much more intense and realistic, but there was still the fact that you could shoot anyone from miles off, then continue through unscathed. Though this may be the most practical way of going about your thing, it loses some of the stealth element.

[Lindy]

It was stated in MGS4 there will be "no place to hide", which worries me slightly.

Or a lot.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

I expect it just means they're going to add some more unique elements to the gameplay, like they've been doing with every game. Maybe this time there'll be so few hiding places that Snake will have to rely more on disguises, so the disguises will get more complex and customizable, or something like that.

[Maxico]

If I remember correctly in an interview he said that it will be set in a place where at first you will think "where am I going to hide there?", or something along those lines. I think thats its probably going to be a desert.

[Lindy]

Snake isn't a disguise kinda guy, Snake is more "Look at me, I'm in a sneaking suit, doesn't it show off my manly body?" and then flattens himself against walls to knock against them.

WHICH REMINDS ME.

In MGS3 I never used the wall knock, or if I did, it was once or twice, because for one there were hardly any places to do it, and mostly the guards had such mad hearing they could hear my footsteps anyway.

[Palindrome]

I know the time line has been changed and such but if Big Boss was cloned in 1972 in his 50s then he would have been in his late 70' mid 80's in Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2. Even on the new time line he is still pretty damn old in those games. How could a 70 year old man beat up a young fit 18 year old Solid Snake?

[Lindy]

Because he's the greatest soldier to have ever lived.

That and he does it the same way a man controls bees to attack, or The End can run faster than Snake when he's 100 years old, or another can recognise and dodge your every move and read your thoughts.

It's a game~

[Palindrome]

I think they take the "its a game" thing way to far. The patriots are the game developers. the game itself is the simulation not the events in the game. Big Boss is named Big Boss because that is what you call the boss at the end of the game and why in the games after liquid and solidus said they were the next big boss. Every game someone tells snake he can't leave the battle field until he dies because he will be the protagonist until they kill off his character (or his voice actor dies). I bet they think they are very cryptic and no one gets it.
Something was missing from MGS3. in every MG game (except the first one) a character that "died" in the previous game came back. In MG2 it was big boss. MGS grey fox. MGS2 liquid. since MGS3 takes place in the past, no one can come back.

[Maxico]

Big boss came back technicaly. He was dead in the previous game and he is alive in this one.

[Lindy]

The Sorrow came back, he was dead after all.

And besides, you said it yourself, it's set in the past so nobody can come back since there is nobody people will recognise and go "Oh, but they were dead!", so why are you complaining about it?

[Old Manus]

Something I noticed yesterday, in the Groznij Grad East Wing - Where you have to steal the Raiden look-a-like's uniform, the Major calls you and says the way to the Main wing is on the second floor.

Now, the Major is presumably English, due to his accent. In England we say the 'bottom/first floor' as the 'ground floor' and the 'second floor' as the 'first floor'. Now I know the answer why is obvious, but I just noticed it and was puzzled thinking, "There's no second floor here is there?".

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Major Zero was speaking to an American soldier, so I'd expect he wouldn't use terminology that would confuse him.

[Old Manus]

Yeah, but it confused me. :rolleyes2