The Nature of the Force

[Shlup]

It seems like half of the thread asking whether or not Anakin fulfilled the prophecy brings into question the nature of the Force. So lets get this out there.

There are two options that I'm aware of: (a) The Dark Side in itself unbalances the Force due to it being "unnatural," and so balance is achieved when all Sith are dead, or (b) The Jedi didn't truely understand the nature of the Force in that, in reality, balance is achieved when The Light and Dark are equal.

I, personally, believe option (b). The fogey old Jedi thought they were so good, but there is no good without bad. There is no day without night.

Don't foget to vote in the poll.

[Chris]

I think most Jedi were truly blinded by the perception of "the force".
The only one who really, truly, understands the consequenzes of using the force is Master Yoda.

[RSL]

Yes, I thought this way ever since I saw the Phantom Menace. Already knowing that Anakin becomes Darth Vader, when the prophecy was mentioned I thought "how clever". Good stuff.

[Chris]

Yoda sensed it right from the get go. Come to think of it, I think it's pretty weird that Yoda didn't do anything about it - back then. I mean; he already snuffed Anakin out right from the beginning.

[TheAbominatrix]

Yoda didnt know it from the beginning, and even Yoda knows that no visions of the future are set in stone. Not to mention he couldnt have killed the boy, that's against everything the Jedi stand for.

The Force itself isnt bad or good... just how it's used. Whether you use it selfishly for the dark side, or selflessly for the light.

[Chris]

I don't mean that Yoda knew about Anakins turning; just that something was seriously wrong about him. I think the force died with Yoda and the Emperor, the two balanched at the top of the Force. Both knowing what the true consequenzes of the force was. In that sense, they didn't control the force, but they were the two who mastered it the best, hence = the strongest and wisest Jedi and Sith masters.

[TheAbominatrix]

He knew there was the possibility of dark things in Anakin's future. Nothing was dark about Anakin at the time... he was still an innocent child. Even near the end, Anakin's intentions were still good; all he wanted to do was bring peace and save his wife. But he went about it selfishly, putting the welfare of one (Padme) over the welfare of many, a selfish act of the Dark Side.

Even in Episode II, Anakin keeps talking about becoming more powerful and bringing peace... and he even succeeds, though it's a horrible kind of police-state peace, and by that time his soul is damned and he's lost sight of all those good intentions he had when first coming to Coruscant.

[Chris]

Anakin didn't manage to let go, let go of loss and fear. He lost his battle against his own feelings, in my opinion he wasn't strong enough to let go. He was really weak in that department.

[TheAbominatrix]

Very true. This fear, fear of losing Padme, is what damned him in the end. That pivotal moment, where Mace could have destroyed Sidious... Anakin thought selfishly, only for himself and Padme (and ultimately only for herself, I'm quite sure Padme would rather die than have all that happen), as opposed to the safety of everyone else, and acted. But until that point, even after all the bad things that he did and that happened, he still could have stayed on the path of the Light. If he'd chosen differently, things would have been... well, very different.

[Chris]

He did have good intentions; but the fear of losing was simply too overwhelming. I really do understand his feelings, I can't say I wouldn't have done the exact same thing if I had someone that close to me. But like Yoda said: "You have to let go" that is the one thing that Anakin didn't manage to do. With all his powers and all, he ultimately failed everybody around him: Padme, Yoda, Obi-Wan and himself. Truely tragic, I completely understand his feelings, though. What a predicament to be in, you chose, unfortunately the only option that stood clear for him was: must save Padme. Ironically he was the reason of Padme's heartache and death. Ironically. So tragic. :(

[Rye]

I see the force as the Nexus from Charmed. In Charmed, the Nexus is like this big pit of neutral power under the Charmed ones' house. But it can help good or evil. So basically, it's like the force.

[FF Junkie]

I concur with nearly everything you say in here Abominatrix, so I don't have to get too long winded here :) lol... But I just wanted to point out what's both the biggest tragedy and irony of Anakin's turning, and thus perhaps of the entire Star Wars story, as Anakin's turning to the Dark Side is pivotal to the Sith not only establishing dominance, but in fact even surviving (thanks to the man, Mace Windu). That grand ole' irony is the fact that it was Anakin's own power and lack of being fully able to understand it that lead to Padme's death... His force powers allowed him to see a glimpse of the future... a glimpse of Padme's death in childbirth. But sadly enough, recall to the end of the movie, when the doctors are evaluating Padme while she's in the medical center... they state that physically she is perfectly healthy, so she SHOULD be fine, and in fact WAS totally capable of going through a normal child birth. It was when Anakin betrayed all that she stood for, and indeed all the things she'd seen in him that made her love him, that she lost her will to live. She didn't die due to Anakin's using the force choke on her at all; it was of a broken heart, and that's made quite clear in the movie. So the irony is that Padme would never have died in child birth at all had Anakin still been a good guy at the time. He tragically only saw the end result of her death, but failed to see his turning evil prior to that. And once the grand manipulator (my nickname for Palpatine, just as Obi-Wan is known as the Great Negotiator) gained knowledge of Anakin's fear of losing Padme, he had the ammo he needed in order to turn Anakin bad.
By the way, I went with option A, but have already explained my argument for it in a few other SW threads, so i won't bore you with all with another repeat :)
Take care everyone

[SeeDRankLou]

The force is simply power. It's existence is neither good nor evil, it's use is good or evil. However, I think it's good or evil use is widely different. To use the force for good is a constant state of mind that a Jedi would keep him/her-self in. A constant state of balance, peace, ect. ect. To use the for for evil is like a domino effect. Once one starts to use the force for evil, a chain reaction starts and one's mind begins to be twisted, and the evil kind of takes on a mind of it's own and replaces that person with itself. They both use the same power, but it is a different state of mind and a different choice.

[Lindy]

The Force is the energy that flows through all living things.

NOW CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER DAMN THEME FOR TOPICS PLEASE >=(

[Shlup]

NOW CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER DAMN THEME FOR TOPICS PLEASE >=(
No.

[XxSephirothxX]

There's a great concept for the Force that's been developed in the New Jedi Order series. I can't really remember it exactly, so anyone who's read the books feel free to correct me. There really is no "light" or "dark" side of the Force. Everyone has light and dark inside themselves, and the key is finding a balance between these two things--nothing is absolute. It's explained much better in the novels...maybe I should do some research or go back and read tbe books again.

[Del Murder]

Good does not exist without evil.

[-N-]

My viewpoint, stated as simply as possible. Call me unconventional in my thought.

1. The Jedi-Sith rift is not "good" versus "evil".
2. The Jedi-Sith rift is one of "balanced minds" versus "unbalanced minds".
3. Therefore, the Force is balanced only when those who are unbalanced die.
4. Thus, Anakin fulfills the prophecy in E.VI by killing the Emperor, then dying.

Long version for those who care to read it:

1. Accept this so I can state 2.

2. Remember what the Emperor says? The Jedi and Sith have the same eventual goal - to preserve peace. The Sith do it through gathering all the power for themselves selfishly, and rely on their pride and strength and arrogance to do so. The Jedi are like Zen warriors - in combat, they simply fight without fear of dying. Of course, the Sith do have fears. In the Bhagavad Gita, this is the divining principle of the warriors Lord Krishna supports - the principle of karma*. Not Western bullcrap karma, Hindu karma. Verse 4.22 states:
He who is satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord,
who is free from duality and whose mind is fixed in Self-knowledge,
who is free from envy and is equanimous in both success and failure,
is not bound by Karma.

3. Follows logically from 1 and 2.

4. Follows from evidence in E.III,VI, and logically from 3.

This will most probably be my only Star Wars related post**, though I am somewhat drawn to the discussion, and will most probably be reading reactions to this post, and nothing more. The rest of the threads are too homogenized with the same Western lines of thought anyways.

*By now, you should be wondering what the hell "karma" really is. Simply stated: Karma is the path to God through "doing one's duty and fulfilling one's role and destiny". In the quote, one who fits all those criteria is no longer bound by this path, so to speak; one has already reached God. So the idea is not just to fulfill Karma (by fitting various spiritual criteria outlined in the Gita), but to break free from it.

**Except for spam, of course.

edit: Oh shoot, I guess I could have chosen (a) instead (chose (c)). :p

[Lindy]

You're all wrong, Kyle Katarn brought balance to the force and you know it.

Mind Trick AND Lightning? MADNESS

[JAS4Yeshua]

I went with option 3. The Force is just a power, neither good nor evil in nature. The struggle of the Jedi vs. Sith wasn't a necessarily struggle of good vs. evil, but of selflessness vs. selfishness. Yes, to many it would appear that it was good and evil, and I think that is what Lucas was trying to convey.

Often we put "selfish" and "evil" together as we would put "selfless" and "good". But when you think about it, it isn't always that easy to separate. I believe that the true power behind the Force comes from understanding how to keep the balance between the two opposing forces of selfishness and selflessness.