A theory as to why Shuyin looks like Tidus

[ThroneofDravaris]

Not sure if this has been brought up before. Spoilers I guess.

Ever since I first saw Shuyin, I have always wondered exactly why he looked exactly like Tidus. I now wonder if it at all possible that Shuyin is the ‘real’ Tidus.

Consider this: The dream Zanarkand is created by Yu Yevon by his summoning of the Dream of the Fayth. Thus, the Dream Zanarkend is a reflection of the Fayth’s memories of the Real Zanarkand. Shuyin once lived in the Real Zanarkand, 1000 years ago, so is it possible that Tidus was created from a Fayth that remembered him? It would certainly be a plausible explanation as to why they look alike.

Once again, if this has already been debated, or his covered in the “perfect” ending of the game (which I have yet to obtain) then I apologize.

[Squall of SeeD]

Here's something I once wrote on the matter:


An often-misconceived notion concerning Final Fantasy X and X-2 is that Shuyin is the basis of Tidus of Dream Zanarkand. Further, this belief has led some to believe that there is a temporal causality loop in place in Dream Zanarkand and that the place resets every so often. Both of these matters are inaccurate, however, and I will here explain why.

Note that the Fayth began dreaming 1000 years in Spira's past, basing Dream Zanarkand on Zanarkand as they had known it. Note also that time passes the same in Dream Zanarkand as it does in Spira. 10 years had passed in both Dream Zanarkand and Spira since Jecht's disappearance from Dream Zanarkand, his arrival in Spira, and his subsequent journey to Zanarkand with Braska and Auron:

(Said by Zanar, the Blitzball announcer from the opening events of the game in Dream Zanarkand.)

"I was in a coffee shop, running away from home when I heard the news."
"Our hero, Jecht, gone, vanished into thin air!"
"My dad must have been his biggest fan. I knew how sad he'd be. Heck, we all were that day."
""Zanar," I says to myself, "What are you thinking?""
"I went running straight back home. We sat up talking 'bout Jecht all night."
"My dad and I never talked so much. Whoa... Didn't mean to reminisce, folks."
"Anyways... Ten years later, the Jecht Memorial Cup tournament is today!"

(After Tidus has gone to Spira and is in the Temple of Besaid.)

::Tidus approaches a statue of a man clad in robes and holding a staff; one of the villagers approaches him::

"Ten years have passed since Lord Braska became high summoner."
"And finally we received a statue for our temple."

(Said by Wakka in Besaid.)

Wakka
"Yuna came to this village ten years ago, when the last Calm started."

(On the S.S. Likki.)

Tidus
"So, is Yuna's father famous or something?"

Wakka
"She's the daughter of High Summoner Braska! You saw his statue at the temple."
"Lord Braska defeated Sin ten years ago."

(On the S.S. Likki.)

Tidus
"My old man, he died. Ten years ago, off the coast of Zanarkand."

Yuna
"I'm sorry."

Tidus
"He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back."
"And no one's seen him since then."

Yuna
"Why, that's the day that Jecht came to Spira."
"It's true! I first met Jecht ten years and three months ago!"
"I remember, that was the day my father left."
"The date fits, doesn't it?"

(On the S.S.Likki.)

Yuna
"But, Sir Jecht was a kind and gentle man!"

Tidus
"Well, not my Jecht."

"Even ten years after he left..."
"just thinking about my old man got me angry. But maybe that was just my way of keeping him... Nah."

(On the S.S. Winno.)


Yuna
"What would you do if you found him?"

Tidus
"Who knows? I thought he died ten years ago."


We also know that times passes the same there because Auron went to Dream Zanarkand to watch over Tidus when he was a child:


Auron
"Jecht, Braska, and I... Together we defeated Sin, ten years ago."
"Then I went to Zanarkand...
"where I watched over you."
"So that one day I could bring you to Spira."


Tidus
"Whenever my old man was around, my mother wouldn't even look at me."
"Maybe that's when I started to resent him, even hate him."
"When he left us..."
(Jecht vanishes, leaving no one beside Tidus' mother)

(Dream Zanarkand is shown, with Tidus as a child looking out at the sea)

Auron
"Is she all right?"

Tidus
"Why should you care?"

Auron
"If she dies, I wouldn't know what to do."

Tidus
"Don't say Mom is gonna die!"

Auron
"I apologize."


Bearing all this in mind, being that 1000 years have passed in Spira since Sin's arrival, it would also be 1000 years since the Fayth created Dream Zanarkand based on Zanarkand as they had known it. Dream Shuyin should have long since died, as there's no reason for the Fayth to have waited 1000 years to make someone based on him, nor is there any reason for the Fayth to be making people at this point any longer in the first place, as the people of Dream Zanarkand are living, breathing, reproducing people. The population of Dream Zanarkand would take care of the matter of providing future generations on their own. This is not to say, however, that Tidus couldn't possibly be a descendant of Dream Shuyin. It's not at all uncommon or unheard of for characters in Fantasy tales or RPGs to bear a striking resemblance to their ancestor (such as Marle in Chrono Trigger looking exactly like Queen Leene, her ancestor of five generations before).

Being aware of the matter of time passing the same in Dream Zanarkand as it does in Spira, some have come to believe that Dream Zanarkand must reset occasionally, as they see no other explanation for Tidus' resemblance to Shuyin other than Shuyin having been the basis for him. However, it's not at all accurate that Dream Zanarkand exists as a temporal causality loop that resets every few years. Most notably, this isn't suggested by the game, nor do we see evidence for it within the story. For that matter, there's not even any reason implied for such a thing to take place, or what purpose it could possibly serve.

That Zanarkand's technology had not advanced in 1000 years is often cited as evidence in this regard. However, civilzations reach peaks and do not advance until new resources become available or some catastrophe occurs. Dream Zanarkand was essentially its own world. Until Sin struck, there was no catastrophe, and there were no new resources to be discovered, obviously. For that matter, Yu Yevon's intention in regard to Dream Zanarkand was for it to keep the Zanarkand he had known alive forever, so it may well be that the possibility of technological advancement wasn't even present in Dream Zanarkand.

In any event, outside of the appearances of Tidus and Shuyin, no conceivable support for Dream Zanarkand resetting is present, and that's certainly not valid evidence on its own. On the part of the creators, Shuyin's appearance was intended for the purpose of causing Yuna to believe that Tidus may yet be alive and that she could find him. This caused her to join the Gullwings, and it provided a plot twist for the game when Shuyin was revealed to be someone who most obviously wasn't Tidus. Striking resemblances are no stranger to Fantasy tales, nor to Japanese tales in games or Anime (think of Taurus/Turlis and Gokou in Dragon Ball Z's third film, The Tree of Might), nor to even Final Fantasy games (Maria and Celes in Final Fantasy VI, for instance), and quite often there is no relation or previous connection of any kind between the characters bearing resemblances to one another.

Most likely, I would conclude that the resemblances are just for the purposes of plot device: Giving Yuna a reason to join the Gullwings and providing a twist further into the game. At best, Tidus may be a descendant of Dream Shuyin if there, indeed, was one.

[ThroneofDravaris]

Hehe, I was owned by that post. Your right though, I didn't think of the passage of time that must have taken place.

[Squall of SeeD]

Hehe, I was owned by that post. Your right though, I didn't think of the passage of time that must have taken place.

I didn't at first either until I played X again after playing X-2. At first, I thought the same thing you did, but in the first 10 minutes of X, when the Blitzball announcer speaks of it having been 10 years since Jecht disappeared, I went "Wait a minute..." and examined the matter in more detail.

[sayen]

well it dose say that tidus is a dream so he has to have some basis in reality so the fayth took shuyins featues on tidus and changes the personality which means tidus is a dream of shuyin just all nicey nice and therfore there must have been some one like ject as well and the passage of time thing just means that the dream and the real world work on the same basis of time.

[Destai]

Personally I dont think theres a connection between the two as I thinkX-2 would have pointed it out and supported it but can I ask, Wasnt the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle beginning around Shuyin and Lennes time? If it was only beginning then and the purpose of the dream Zanarkand was for the fayths to create a peaceful Zanarkand wouldnt they have based the Dream on a Zanarkand before the war. Sorry if something like this has already been explained or if I havent explained enough but its 1.05 am and Im not at my best right now.:/

[ThroneofDravaris]

Just thought of something else. Shuyins attacks are exactly the same a Tidus’ (save the name of course). How do you explain that? (other than Square is lazy).

[Destai]

Just thought of something else. Shuyins attacks are exactly the same a Tidus’ (save the name of course). How do you explain that? (other than Square is lazy).Wizard.

[DMKA]

We have to keep in mind that Tidus was a dream.

[Squall of SeeD]

well it dose say that tidus is a dream so he has to have some basis in reality so the fayth took shuyins featues on tidus and changes the personality which means tidus is a dream of shuyin just all nicey nice and therfore there must have been some one like ject as well and the passage of time thing just means that the dream and the real world work on the same basis of time.

Again, though, 1000 years have passed. The people of Dream Zanarkand are populating the place on their own. They're living, breathing, reproducing people, and their copulation with one another brings forth new people. The Fayth have no reason to be randomly creating someone and tossing them in, and we know they weren't, as Jecht and Tidus' mother are his parents. He was born like anyone else.



Just thought of something else. Shuyins attacks are exactly the same a Tidus’ (save the name of course). How do you explain that? (other than Square is lazy).

Well, we have to keep in mind that Square is lazy. About 80% of the stuff in X-2 was reused from X, ranging from environment maps to NPCs. Generic character designs were suddenly being used for some of the central NPCs, such as Ndhala, Beclem, and Yaibal.

Something like this really isn't all that worthy of consideration with the other points to consider.

[Inuyasha0012]

Thats the same theory i was thinking of because you have to have a basis on what you are dreaming up

[Krag Koopa]

I dont think anyone would care that square used the same NPCs.....its in the same world......so anyone that didnt die in the first one is in the second one.........how do we know that tidus and shuyin are related in any way....and how come....shuyin didnt get turned into a fiend.....and since he was sent to the farplane...why isn't he happy?

[Shadow_Wolf 6354]

krag koopa:a question about your sig there werent 1000 words spoken were there? wasnt it only three?






you wont remember this encounter
:shoot:

[eden knight]

and since he was sent to the farplane...why isn't he happy?
I believe he couln't find rest cause all of the situation with Lenne.He says this somewhere in the game.

[Big D]

Thats the same theory i was thinking of because you have to have a basis on what you are dreaming upYeah, that's my basic theory. The Summoners all knew each other, or so I'm guessing. They were a pretty elite bunch, and they fought together, so I'd guess they were close. This means that some of them undoubtedly knew Shuyin, because they knew Lenne. Their memory of Shuyin would've become infused into the 'dream world' they created, which could inevitably lead to some of the dream people sharing Shuyin's charactersistics, be they emotional, physical or intellectual.I believe he couln't find rest cause all of the situation with Lenne.He says this somewhere in the game.Shuyin and Lenne died a horrible death, and Shuyin wasn't too happy about it. His rage at the unjust death and the separation from Lenne prevented his spirit from reaching the Farplane on its own, and there sure wasn't anyone to perform the sending. His resentment and hostility festered for a millennium in the Den of Woe, while Lenne's spirit eventually formed a Sphere (much like Materia in FFVII) which contained her memories, emotions and skills. This is the Songstress dressphere that Yuna later acquires.

[Tai-Ti]

I honestly can't see an obvious resemblance between Shuyin n Tidus, same wit Lenne and Yuna, i can point out lots of differences in appearance. But i wouls say, that the 1st explanation that was made, would b the one i would go by :)

[~*~Celes~*~]

This is what I have adopted as my answer to why Shuyin and Tidus look so much alike and why Lenne and Yuna look similar. I think that maybe somehow, Lenne and Shuyin were reincarnated into Yuna and Tidus. I know it's totally wrong but that's just what I used to think and still sort of do.

~*~Celes~*~

[Tai-Ti]

but one question i have:
Dose it really matter? Tis a good thing to ask about, but i dont really think it has any importance. But another eason is, i could all be coincidence that Shuyin looks like Tidus in the game, but square made it that way, so that Yuna would think Shuyin was Tidus up untill she meets him.

[Squall of SeeD]

This is what I have adopted as my answer to why Shuyin and Tidus look so much alike and why Lenne and Yuna look similar. I think that maybe somehow, Lenne and Shuyin were reincarnated into Yuna and Tidus. I know it's totally wrong but that's just what I used to think and still sort of do.

~*~Celes~*~

Since I've already shown why the "Shuyin=Tidus" argument is -- in all likelihood -- wrong, I won't touch on it again, but the matter of Lenne being reincarnated as Yuna is absolutely impossible. Her Spirit Energy crystalized into the Songstress Dressphere. And her spirit comes out of it without Yuna's body falling over dead, meaning they have seperate spirits.