FF VII was never fiished Aerth was to be (ya know) [Archive]

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Fire_Emblem776

05-29-2005, 07:01 AM

:eek: Another great thing to share
a full analasys that FF VII was never completed and ares was to be reborn
from game faqs
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*************** 7) AERIS'S DEATH AND THE UNFINISHED GAME THEORY ***************
===============================================================================

This section is devoted to an issue I wanted to keep separate from the general
FAQ as it is such a BIG plot point and also has implication outside of the
games plot and into the actual design and development of the game.

The first big question everyone has about FF7 is Aeris, why did she have to
die? And indeed was she meant to stay dead? I always felt the ending of FF7
seemed a little rushed. I had always thought Aeris did have to "die" the way
she did on disc one, but would somehow come back maybe even as the embodiment
of Holy to fight Sephiroth in the final battle. I was emailed by RTSmith005,
who has VERY strong feelings on the matter of Aeris death and whether she was
intended to come back. He has given permission for that email to be reproduced
in full below. While I DISAGREE that the game was spoiled by the ending as it
stands (I always thought they were quite brave NOT to clear up every loosed
end, so don't flame me people), I am still intrigued by all the evidence he
provides that Aeris was intended to be brought back.

THE INCOMPLETE GAME THEORY - contributed by RTSmith005

"As I sit writing this I am listening to Aeris's theme in the background. I
first learned about Aeris's death when I was casually browsing FF7 web pages
and I came across Andrew Vestal's masterful editorial on whether or not FF7 is
complete. Ignoring the spoiler warning I found out that Aeris died during the
course of the game. I was upset that I knew this fact, but I then decided that
it was six months before the release, it didn't really matter. When I finally
got the game I knew that Aeris would die at the end of Disc One. I decided to
use her all the time during the battles, and I gradually got attached to her.

Attached to a video game character? Well, most people get attached to
characters in movies or novels, and that is really what FF7 is, not just a
game, but a movie/novel experience. As one of my friends who played the game
said "Man it felt like I knew her." When I reached the Forgotten Capital I
realized that Aeris was about to die and it seemed that my time with her was
all too short and fleeting. It had been the date at the Gold Saucer that had
really made me love her as a character. I watched in horror as Sephiroth
descended and gutted the peaceful Aeris. As Cloud later said "She smiled, in
the end..." I couldn't believe what I was doing. I was feeling sad at the death
of a fictional video game character! I was on the verge of tears, real tears of
sadness! How ridiculous and idiotic and stupid was that? Except it's not.
Square has made a game where the characters seem real, and it is indeed a
testament to them that we feel this way about them. It's nothing to be ashamed
of, or to be embarrassed about. The rest of the game was good, but not as good
as the first twenty hours.

The first disc of the game was pure genius. The second disc only got
interesting when we learned about Cloud's past and the Sapphire Weapon attacked
Junon. Otherwise, the second disc only gets very, very depressing, with the
storyline making you think Cloud is a Sephiroth clone and Bugenhagen dying
(although that is actually on Disc Three). The fall of Shinra was horribly
done, in fact the last ten hours of the game are altogether horrible. The
storyline is rushed, many plotlines are left unexplained, and the characters
undergo very little development (besides Cid and Cloud). The third disc is a
waste, as the last dungeon is hardly a challenge. The path to Sephiroth is
interesting, and the fight with Jenova is good, but the Bizarro-Sephiroth fight
is horrible and tedious. The final battle is incredible, literally some of the
best music in any game. The ending was also good in the beginning, as Cloud's
final battle one on one with Sephiroth was spectacular. Otherwise, the ending
was absolutely a waste. FFIII's ending was just as bad, with absolutely no
character development occurring. The ending in FF7 was a waste of disc space
and uninventive thinking. The scriptwriters should be shot for destroying such
a good game. Indeed, many people I have talked to have totally changed their
opinions on the game after viewing the ending.

In short the ending is horrible. My first opinion on it was that humanity was
wiped out by Holy, as Bugenhangen hinted at earlier on in the game. However,
upon thinking about it, wouldn't it be the ultimate injustice if humanity had
killed Sephiroth, freeing Holy and thereby saving the Planet, and the Planet
replayed humanity by killing each and every last one of them? But now, thinking
about it, I hope that Holy did indeed wipe out humanity. It would be a fitting
ending to an altogether tragic game. Why am I so bitter about the ending and
the latter half of the game, you ask? Well, the answer is simple. Everyone
probably knows about the Aeris resurrection theory. If you look at the game
there is a vast amount of empirical evidence that Aeris's resurrection was
originally supposed to be part of the game, perhaps if only in the original
script or in early versions of the game. I believe that there is NO WAY to
resurrect her now, however, I believe that FF7 is incomplete, and that we are
all playing a game that is truly the greatest ever made, but that could be so
much better. First I will present the evidence that can be found in the game
and related to the game.

1) The presence of Aeris's ghost in her church is a very small plot point in
the game. In fact, it's barely discussed by any one in the game itself. Why
else would it be in the game. A nostalgic moment? Perhaps.

2) Before the final battle there is an extra ledge that no one is standing on.

3) For the battle against Bizarro-Sephiroth, if you are strong enough to form
three parties, then one party has only two characters. Each party should have
three members...

4) Throughout the game Cloud is in situations in which he must pick Aeris over
Tifa or show that he is an uncaring or a caring guy. However, after Aeris's
death, this entire point is dropped. Considering the number of decisions you
are forced to make (around twenty some) you would think it would have more
bearing than who you get to date...

5) In the Japanese version, why does Aeris speak at certain points after you
use the GameShark to get her back? Why does she only have it in certain spots?

6) Aeris's best weapon has only seven Materia holders and it can gain AP, while
EVERYONE else's best weapon has eight linked slots and gains no AP.

7) Aeris's Umbrella has a higher Attack Power than her best weapon, the
Princess Guard, whereas everyone else's best weapon has a higher Attack Power
than all of their other weapons.

8) When you get Aeris's fourth limit break she has most likely already died.
If you actually do what you need to do to get it before she dies you waste vast
amounts of time (it took me three extra hours of getting her limit breaks up).
The point is that if you get it before she dies, it doesn't seem like you
should have it yet.

9) Right before the pillar steps in the Forgotten City before Aeris dies there
is doorway in the background. If you look at the patterns on the pillar, the
doorway is somewhat similar but markedly different. Programmers usually don't
put extra stuff like that in a game; it's a waste of time and effort. There is
no way to reach the door.

10) If you look at the floor before Cloud is trying to kill Aeris, there is a
spiral staircase leading downward. If you think about the way the City is
shaped it should be the reflection of the stairs above, but if you think on how
the glass around Aeris is shaped, it physically couldn't be so...

11) In the game manual there are FMV drawings of the characters. Every
character's drawing except Aeris (she is looking at the highwind you see it
where disc 1 is in) actually occurs in the game, or could realistically occur.
Aeris's cannot, as she wasn't with Cloud when he first saw the Highwind on the
first trip to Junon. She had already died when Barret and Tifa made their
escape on the Highwind later. In the picture she also dressed in white, and the
entire game she dressed in red...

12) The strongest empirical evidence for this lies in a conversation Cloud has
with Tifa during on the bridge of the Highwind... Tifa:I wonder what Aeris
felt... when she was on that Altar... Cloud: I'm sure she wanted to give her
life for the planet... Tifa: Really? I wonder? I don't think that's it at all.
I think she didn't think she would die at all, but that she planned on coming
back all along. She always used to talk about the "Next Time". She talked about
the future more than any of us'. This is very, very suspect, as anyone can see.

The entire game is ruined, in my opinion, by the loss of Aeris, and the death
of hope and joy. Many argue her death insured the player's hatred of Sephiroth.
Even if she were to be theoretically resurrected, I would still hate Sephiroth.
In my opinion, Square should re-release the game with her resurrection, and a
better ending, one worthy of a Final Fantasy game. Would it make her death
meaningless? Yes, it would, her sacrifice would be null and void and hollow.
But her death makes the game meaningless... Judging by the number of people who
desperately want to resurrect her, I think Square would profit financially from
such a decision. A game, which was already great, could be made truly perfect.
But somehow, I don't think this will ever happen. - XxRTSmithxX.......(thx for
letting me share this falsehead)"

Further discussion of this angle of the game is welcome, if anyone has
conclusive proof either way of whether Aeris was to have stayed dead or was a
victim of rushed development then it would be very welcome.

I was quite surprised and gratified by the response RTSmiths views got. I am
pleased to see many people engaging with his comments and several have provided
some well thought out responses to his arguments. With permission of the
authors I have reproduced their arguments in full.

"Hey, I just wanted to say that my friends and I have thought about the Aeris
resurrection theory and came up with some reasons why it couldn't be
possible.

1.) First in the final showdown with Sephiroth, there is a party of two.
People assume that there is one person missing, but I look at it as there
are two people too many. Considering that Yuffie and Vincent are both
secret characters, this would make the third party nonexistent.

2.) Second, the whole reason Cloud and the others kept fighting was because
they hated Sephiroth even more for killing Aeris. If Aeris was resurrected,
the plot line would have become very slow and harder to develop.

3.) In the previous Aeris resurrection theory, one of the reasons mentioned
is concerning Aeris having a level 4 limit break. First, this could just be
a challenge for more serious gamers. Most people don't beat Ruby weapon,
just like most people don't take the effort to get Aeris' level 4 limit
break. Also, if she didn't have a level 4 limit break, people would be
suspicious when they viewed her limit breaks in the menu.

4.) Concerning the choices you have to make about Tifa and Aeris from
Cloud's point-of-view- though this aspect of the game is quickly forgotten
after Aeris' death, the whole point of the questioning is to give character
development. When you are forced to take the position of a character and
respond to questioning, you feel closer to the characters. Therefore, the
questions are not needed later on in the game, as character development
slows and plot development takes a stronger hold.

5.) For Aeris' ultimate weapon having only seven materia slots, the creators
most likely did not want to give away the fact that Aeris' end was near by
giving the player her ultimate weapon that early."

MecaKane

05-29-2005, 07:21 AM

I want it so bad, so it must be true!

Big D

05-29-2005, 08:52 AM

This issue has been addressed elsewhere (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=62427).

The "incomplete game" theory is just a myth, conceived by desperate fanboys who badly wanted their dreams to come true - as Kane has pointed out with sarcastic abandon.

It's been emphasised time and time again that Aeris' death was just too significant and too emotionally loaded to be reversed with a tired old cliche.

BackRoomKid

05-29-2005, 09:22 AM

i remember Squall of SeeD posting a thread about this...and dam, he's convincing

TheAbominatrix

05-29-2005, 11:09 AM

Squall of Seed has actual proof, which is why he's so convincing.

Aerith is meant to die, and to stay dead. End of story. The creators have said as much.

Holy_Aeris

05-29-2005, 11:12 AM

I agree

As much as i wanted aeris to stay in the game, cause she's one of me faves, her death was important in the game, it was essential.
It gave an unexpeted twist!! And i think the game woud be slightly ruined if they brought her back!!

Sepho

05-29-2005, 05:12 PM

If Aeris gets revived throughout the story, her death would be about as meaningful as the death of any character in DBZ.

Drama creates a good story. It's the fact that fans want her to be revived that keeps them interested in the game.

Squall of SeeD

05-29-2005, 06:40 PM

Aside from the fact that the notion has been disproven altogether, I think that those fallacious points of "evidence" should be debunked, as well:

1) The presence of Aeris's ghost in her church is a very small plot point in the game. In fact, it's barely discussed by any one in the game itself. Why else would it be in the game. A nostalgic moment? Perhaps.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I swear I remember testing this once and that one can see this "ghost" even if they go back to Aerith's church after she has been kidnapped by Tseng on Disc 1, when she is still alive. If so, whatever the form of Aerith that appears and vanishes there is intended to convey, it has nothing to do with it being her ghost, what with her still being alive when it can first be observed. More likely, it's simply Cloud's memories. For that matter, I don't think the children in the church say anything which would suggest the presence of Aerith in any form.

Again, maybe I'm wrong on that particular point as it's been several years since I played that particular part of the game, but I think I'm right. If anyone is certain of it one way or the other, please do let me know. I'm going to test it later tonight, I think. It will only take about three hours to get to that point in the game, I guess.

2) Before the final battle there is an extra ledge that no one is standing on.

Technically, there's more than just one spot where Aerith could have conceivably been placed. This, in and of itself, does nothing to suggest that the notion was intended by the developers.

3) For the battle against Bizarro-Sephiroth, if you are strong enough to form three parties, then one party has only two characters. Each party should have three members...

As with the matter of there being an "empty ledge" above the area of the final battles, this alone does nothing to support the notion.

4) Throughout the game Cloud is in situations in which he must pick Aeris over Tifa or show that he is an uncaring or a caring guy. However, after Aeris's death, this entire point is dropped. Considering the number of decisions you are forced to make (around twenty some) you would think it would have more bearing than who you get to date...

It does affect more than that. It affects the dialogue and dynamic between Cloud and Tifa when they spend the night together beneath the Highwind after Hojo's defeat and before the descent into the Northern Crater.

In one version of events (if Cloud's affection level for Tifa is high to moderate), Cloud and Tifa will seem much closer and it is from this version of the scene that many have gotten the impression that Cloud and Tifa may have spent that night together in a far more intimate manner than we observe.

In the other version, Cloud is a bit of a prick, barely saying anything while Tifa prattles on.

5) In the Japanese version, why does Aeris speak at certain points after you use the GameShark to get her back? Why does she only have it in certain spots?

Characters such as Cid and Yuffie have lines as early in the game as the Mithril Mines beyond the Chocobo Ranch, yet they're also generic lines. With this in mind, any generic lines from Aerith beyond the point in the game where she should be dead should not be regarded as significant, nor indicative of a possible -- or intended -- resurrection.

6) Aeris's best weapon has only seven Materia holders and it can gain AP, while EVERYONE else's best weapon has eight linked slots and gains no AP.

If the player were to suddenly acquire a weapon for Aerith that was far superior to the other weapons for her in terms of its flexibility, specifically if it gained no AP, that could possibly convey that this was intended to be her ultimate and final weapon, thereby prematurely conveying her imminent permanent departure from the party.

7) Aeris's Umbrella has a higher Attack Power than her best weapon, the Princess Guard, whereas everyone else's best weapon has a higher Attack Power than all of their other weapons.

Again, if Aerith were to suddenly acquire a weapon far superior to her other weapons in every regard, that could possibly convey that this was intended to be her ultimate -- and, thus, her final -- weapon, prematurely conveying that Aerith's permanent farewell would be soon.

I'm not even sure how either of these points were talem to convey "RESSURECTION CITY!" in the first place.

8) When you get Aeris's fourth limit break she has most likely already died. If you actually do what you need to do to get it before she dies you waste vast amounts of time (it took me three extra hours of getting her limit breaks up). The point is that if you get it before she dies, it doesn't seem like you should have it yet.

But the fact remains that the player can have it before Aerith's death by making use of the Buggy supplied by Dio, riding it into Costa del Sol and returning the to the Midgar continent, then fulfilling the requirements for obtaining a piece of Mithril, and later giving it to the Weapon Seller east of Gongaga in exchange for the Great Gospel. Further, the player can make use of it before Aerith's death provided that they raise her Limit Break levels to the point that the Great Gospel item can be used to teach her this final Limit Break.

The fact that she can get it before her death and use it completely undermines this point in regard to reviving her. Further, consider that if Aerith were meant to be revived, or were meant to remain alive, that -- with her final Limit Break -- the latter Boss battles of the game would be made ridiculously simple.

While true that it takes a great deal of time to actually acquire and make use of it before Aerith's death, it's simply an extra challenge for players to take on during the course of the game.

9) Right before the pillar steps in the Forgotten City before Aeris dies there is doorway in the background. If you look at the patterns on the pillar, the doorway is somewhat similar but markedly different. Programmers usually don't put extra stuff like that in a game; it's a waste of time and effort. There is no way to reach the door.

Programmers always put /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif in the background that you can't interact with.

10) If you look at the floor before Cloud is trying to kill Aeris, there is a spiral staircase leading downward. If you think about the way the City is shaped it should be the reflection of the stairs above, but if you think on how the glass around Aeris is shaped, it physically couldn't be so...

And the scene of her death is riddled with errors as it is already. Depending on the version you're playing, when approaching the altar, she either has her back to the stairs or is facing them. In any event, when Cloud gets up there and holds his sword above her, she's facing the stairs. As the FMV of her death begins, she is still facing the stairs. When the Sephiroth form descends, it isn't wearing gloves. When it skewers her, not only is the Sephiroth form now wearing gloves, but the stairs are behind both Aerith and the Sephiroth form. When the FMV ends, the Sephiroth form is now facing the stairs. That's a smurfed up scene in every respect.

11) In the game manual there are FMV drawings of the characters. Every character's drawing except Aeris (she is looking at the highwind you see it where disc 1 is in) actually occurs in the game, or could realistically occur. Aeris's cannot, as she wasn't with Cloud when he first saw the Highwind on the first trip to Junon. She had already died when Barret and Tifa made their escape on the Highwind later. In the picture she also dressed in white, and the entire game she dressed in red...

Aerith isn't wearing white in that FMV shot. She's wearing her standard outfit. The manner in which the light shines on her makes it appear as though she is wearing a white skirt, however, the pink hue of her skirt can still be easily observed: Linkage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/AerithandtheHighwind.jpg).

As far as it having never occurred in-game goes, that's hardly to be taken as an indication of the developers' intentions. For that matter, the FMV shot of Barret Wallace involves him holding Marlene while standing in Aerith's church. That hardly could have taken place during the course of the game, as Barret doesn't see Marlene during the game after leaving her in Elmyra's care, nor would the church have looked the same if the scene had taken place after the game due to the damage rendered to Midgar and the church during Meteor's descent (as can be seen by comparing shots of the church during the game to shots of the church in Advent Children):

Barret and Marlene in Aerith's Church (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/BarretandMarleneinAerithsChurch.jpg).
Aerith's Church in Advent Children (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/AerithsChurchinAdventChildren.jpg).

While one may argue that Barret and Marlene had visited the church before the game unfolds, that's rather going out on a limb, as it's never suggested and needs to be kept in mind that Midgar is vast in size and the odds of Barret having taken Marlene for a stroll through the dangerous city to Aerith's church before they even knew Aerith is unlikely. For that matter, just because Aerith wasn't with Cloud when he saw the Highwind doesn't mean she couldn't have gotten as close to it as he did. The other members of AVALANCHE had to find a way up to the upper level of Junon somehow, after all, and we're not told much of what they did or saw on the way, with the only exception being that we're told that Aerith did see the Highwind:

(On the Shin-Ra Cargo Ship)

A soldier
"Umm.... It's me, Aerith."
Aerith
"Hey, Cloud. Did you see the Airship at Junon?"

Cloud
"...I heard it was big, but I didn't expect it to be THAT big."

Aerith
"That was REALLY something."

12) The strongest empirical evidence for this lies in a conversation Cloud has with Tifa during on the bridge of the Highwind...

Tifa:I wonder what Aeris felt... when she was on that Altar...

Cloud: I'm sure she wanted to give her life for the planet...

Tifa: Really? I wonder? I don't think that's it at all. I think she didn't think she would die at all, but that she planned on coming back all along. She always used to talk about the "Next Time". She talked about the future more than any of us'. This is very, very suspect, as anyone can see.

This is one of the weakest points in the whole thing. The point of that scene was to emphasise the unpredictability of death, which Kitase comments on concerning Aerith's death:

The point here was not that Aerith had intended to die and return, or that the developers intended her to do so. She, indeed, had no idea that she was going to die, which is why she spoke of the future and of coming back when things were finished with Sephiroth. Based on the aforementioned interview in the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine, we can determine that the point of this scene was to emphasise the realistic nature of death: It's unexpected and there's no time to prepare for it:

Yoshinori Kitase on the Subject of Aerith's Death:
"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had knowni this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Edge%20--%20May%202003%20Issue%20123/KitasesThoughtsonAerithsDeath.jpg).
Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death (Part 2) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Edge%20--%20May%202003%20Issue%20123/KitasesThoughtsonAerithsDeath2.jpg).
Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death (Part 3) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Edge%20--%20May%202003%20Issue%20123/KitasesThoughtsonAerithsDeath3.jpg).

This stuff was obviously written by a deluded, desperate fanboy/fangirl of Aerith that was unable to accept reality. I've debunked it on numerous occasions, but never had the proof from EDGE magazine that I now have.

The most obvious point that this person is totally a fanboy/fangirl of Aerith is right here:

"4) Throughout the game Cloud is in situations in which he must pick Aeris over Tifa or show that he is an uncaring or a caring guy."

It's interesting that they only mention Cloud being in situations where he "must" pick Aerith over Tifa, considering that one can do things to build Cloud's affection level with Tifa instead of with Aerith.

Obviously an Aerith fan.

Ravenmorghane

05-29-2005, 08:20 PM

yeh I think this has been completely cleared up in previous threads. Would the Aeris fans really feel as strong about the woman if she didnt die or if she was resurrected? No. I study psychology and it is a known fact that people often want what is impossible or what they cant have. Give a person what they wanted and it becomes meaningless to them at least after the novelty has worn off. Sorry to say it guys, but Squall of seed is right. And I was once one of the children that would attempt to get 16 mastered revives to resurrect her (it was on a website somewhere.. I think I got 2 mastered then gave up) and kept trying to find secrets in the city of the ancients, her house and her church. How naive was that?

DJZen

05-29-2005, 08:25 PM

Not to mention that he can be a total jerk to both of them and go out on a date with Yuffie or even Barret...

It really boggles my mind how people cling to the notion that Aeris was meant to live, when there are so many other tragic deaths in the series. Even as early in the game as FFII where Josef is suddenly and unexpectedly killed by a boulder, and Richard dies rather abruptly at the hands of the Emperor, or in FFIV where Palom and Porom sacrifice themselves when the walls unexpectedly start caving in, or when Tellah kicks the bucket after casting Meteo.

The fact of the matter is that FFVII is actually complete. Want proof? The US never actually saw the original version of the game. The version released in the US was an IMPROVED version that included some touched up graphics, corrected FMVs, and entirely new bosses. If Square bothered to take the time to go back, fix things up, and even add some all new events, surely they would have enabled a way to ressurect Aeris if this had been their original intent.

In short, Aeris was meant to die and to stay dead. There is no way to bring her back without using a gameshark (which, I'd like to point out, is not a valid indicator that she was meant to be revived since it only inserts a character which was already present in the game's code). She was not meant to come back.

BackRoomKid

05-29-2005, 09:24 PM

If Square bothered to take the time to go back, fix things up, and even add some all new events, surely they would have enabled a way to ressurect Aeris if this had been their original intent.

:smash: good point

silentenigma

05-29-2005, 09:56 PM

I do agree with all of what has already been explained in this thread, but I still saw something odd that I haven't seen discussed----
There is a weapon in Mideel. It is a rod called something like "crystal rod". You can buy it. Umm.....?

I do believe that something drastically changed in the middle of making the game concerning Aeris and her death. I think that she was always supposed to die, but the event was to come later in the story. The innerworkings of the game have tons of evidence.

Big D

05-29-2005, 11:00 PM

Squall of SeeD

05-30-2005, 03:41 AM

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I swear I remember testing this once and that one can see this "ghost" even if they go back to Aerith's church after she has been kidnapped by Tseng on Disc 1, when she is still alive. I'm pretty sure she's not there until after disc one. If you go back just after she's kidnapped, those two kids are there and ask if they can look after the flowers - but Aeris' spirit isn't there until later.

Alright, thanks Big D. I wasn't sure on this. I'm going to try it again just so we'll be sure. It's been about 4 years since I did it.

I do believe that something drastically changed in the middle of making the game concerning Aeris and her death. I think that she was always supposed to die, but the event was to come later in the story. The innerworkings of the game have tons of evidence.

Well, she actually wasn't supposed to die in the original draft of the script, and when the idea for her to die was implemented, I'm not sure where in the game it was supposed to occur to be entirely honest with you.

As for the matter of that rod you mentioned, can't you go to Mideel using the Tiny Bronco before Aerith is ever killed? I never bothered with doing so, but I imagine that there's probably a beach on that island.

Carl the Llama

05-30-2005, 04:34 AM

Barret doesn't see Marlene during the game after leaving her in Elmyra's care, nor would the church have looked the same if the scene had taken place after the game due to the damage rendered to Midgar and the church during Meteor's descent (as can be seen by comparing shots of the church during the game to shots of the church in Advent Children):

Barret and Marlene in Aerith's Church (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/BarretandMarleneinAerithsChurch.jpg).
Aerith's Church in Advent Children (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/AerithsChurchinAdventChildren.jpg).

actully he goes and see's her just before the final battle, when cloud and tifa have there time alone

Fire_Emblem776

05-30-2005, 04:47 AM

:eek:
I'm pretty sure she's not there until after disc one. If you go back just after she's kidnapped, those two kids are there and ask if they can look after the flowers - but Aeris' spirit isn't there until later.
THeir is a ghost their??!!! :eek:

Kawaii Ryûkishi

05-30-2005, 06:05 AM

It's not a ghost so much as it is Cloud's memory of her, and it's a minor thing. If Aeris were a ghost, I think she'd have better things to do than tend to the flowers in the old church.

Raven Nox

05-30-2005, 06:06 AM

I remember reading these very words a long time ago! wow... still stuipd, but wow...

Kawaii Ryûkishi

05-30-2005, 06:10 AM

Also, there's no such thing as the Crystal Rod.

Big D

05-30-2005, 06:35 AM

You also can't get into Mideel during disc one. The geography just doesn't allow it...

Squall of SeeD

05-30-2005, 04:17 PM

Camanche

05-30-2005, 04:22 PM

*groans*

I can't take it anymore!

*shoots self*

Let it be people. Please, let it be. She's supposed to be dead.

Squall of SeeD

05-30-2005, 09:21 PM

Alright folks, I started a new game of FFVII a few hours ago and I've gotten to the point where Aerith is kidnapped by Tseng. I can now confirm that, yes, the image of Aerith will briefly appear in the church while she is still alive. If any of you have saves near that point in the game, go back to the church and look at the middle of the screen when you enter. You'll briefly see her standing there in the aisle (or tending to the flowers according to some accounts, though it's believed by some that Cloud's affection level with her determines where she will be; I always intentionally have his affection level be higher for Tifa, so I'm not sure if it makes a difference).

In any case, you can exit and enter the church as many times as you want, and the image of Aerith will always be there when you enter at this point, and it will appear in the same fashion as it does on Disc 3 and disappear just as quickly. It's there while she is still alive. In other words, this means one of two things:

1) It's not her ghost at all and is just a glitch in the game's code.

2) It is intended to be her ghost, but for some reason, there's a glitch and it appears even while she's alive. This, however, is a bit of a stretch and seems unlikely to begin with. In any event, there's no reason for Aerith's ghost to be hanging around there in the first place and the image does appear even while she's alive.

I've also found that Final Fantasy VII Citadel reports this same phenomenon: Linkage (http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/sa_church.shtml).

With this in mind, at best, its Cloud's memories. Most likely, however, it's just a glitch.

silentenigma

05-30-2005, 09:26 PM

Squall of SeeD

05-30-2005, 09:55 PM

As for the matter of that rod you mentioned, can't you go to Mideel using the Tiny Bronco before Aerith is ever killed? I never bothered with doing so, but I imagine that there's probably a beach on that island.

You can't make it to Mideel with the tiny bronco. the beach there is cut off from everywhere else.

Yeah, you and Big D were right about that. While there are shallows that connect to beaches there, you can't access two of those beaches with the Bronco, and the third doesn't have a landing point from where one could access Mideel.

However, that's irrelevant, as Kawaii is right about there being no Crystal Rod in the first place. It just doesn't exist. Aerith has no weapons that are impossible for her to access before her death. There's no weapon for her in Mideel.

Kawaii Ryûkishi

05-30-2005, 10:06 PM

Tseng had captured Aeris, so it still makes sense that an image of Cloud's memory of her would show up in the church.

silentenigma

05-30-2005, 10:08 PM

However, that's irrelevant, as Kawaii is right about there being no Crystal Rod in the first place.

Oops, didn't read kawaii's post. sorry.
That's weird because during my first runthrough the "rod" I thought I saw was the whole reason I thought that she would be revived by the end of the game. I only recalled seeing it before the earthquake.
Must've been actually been a spear or something. >_<*

Squall of SeeD

05-30-2005, 10:19 PM

Tseng had captured Aeris, so it still makes sense that an image of Cloud's memory of her would show up in the church.

Possibly, but I'm inclined to think it a glitch. It's only present while the screen is loading, and when it's fully loaded, the image disappears.

Oops, didn't read kawaii's post. sorry.
That's weird because during my first runthrough the "rod" I thought I saw was the whole reason I thought that she would be revived by the end of the game. I only recalled seeing it before the earthquake.
Must've been actually been a spear or something. >_<*

Don't worry about it. Mistakes like this happen.

Dolentrean

05-30-2005, 11:46 PM

Regarding ariths ghost or memory before she is dead, I simply think it is a glitch considering how quickly she disappears, I think the "ghost" was only meant to be seen after her death. She was never meant to be revived, case closed, the end, game over! the only argument one could make is that she was meant to die later in the game, and that is still far fetched.

TurkSlayer

05-31-2005, 04:41 PM

Fire_Emblem776

05-31-2005, 05:33 PM

You can't make it to Mideel with the tiny bronco. the beach there is cut off from everywhere else.

so can you take ares to Wutia in disk 1?
i mean in the weopn shop they sell a rod for her but she is death by the time i got ther.
i never found a way to get ther...

Carl the Llama

05-31-2005, 06:11 PM

Squall of SeeD

05-31-2005, 07:11 PM

I believe Aeris was intended to die at a later time (after the change from the original script, of course), mainly from the fact of her dialog after her death and evidence I've found on several websites. One is the fact that in the Debug Room, you can acess a secret cave that plays Aeris's theme in the back ground.

Those later lines are generic things like Aerith's "I'm sick of this" line when the party crashes at the Great Glacier after riding on the snowboard. For that matter, Cid and Yuffie can have lines as early as the Mithril Mines, yet neither can be acquired that early in normal game play.

As for that cave, it was only a third rendering of the Materia Tree area: Linkage (http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/sa_seen3.shtml).

You can't make it to Mideel with the tiny bronco. the beach there is cut off from everywhere else.

so can you take ares to Wutia in disk 1?
i mean in the weopn shop they sell a rod for her but she is death by the time i got ther.
i never found a way to get ther...

Yes, one can get to Wutai on Disc 1.

Barret doesn't see Marlene during the game after leaving her in Elmyra's care, nor would the church have looked the same if the scene had taken place after the game due to the damage rendered to Midgar and the church during Meteor's descent (as can be seen by comparing shots of the church during the game to shots of the church in Advent Children):

Barret and Marlene in Aerith's Church (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/BarretandMarleneinAerithsChurch.jpg).
Aerith's Church in Advent Children (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/AerithsChurchinAdventChildren.jpg).

actully he goes and see's her just before the final battle, when cloud and tifa have there time alone

Then he would have gone to Kalm and not Midgar. Marlene was in Kalm.
that is not so as at the end you see marlene in her room in midgar, as i distinctly remember barret saying somthing along the lines of "sh'it what about marleen" or somehting like that, ill keep you updated as im about to play the game again

She was in Kalm. She opens the window and looks out across the plains to Midgar in the distance. Note the architecture of the house she was in and that of the surrounding homes. For that matter, the camera zooms in on Kalm from a good distance away before she is shown in that room.

As for when Barret asks about Marlene, that was back when Diamond WEAPON was approaching Midgar. Cait Sith told him then that she was somewhere safe with Elmyra. In the ending, Barret doesn't ask about Marlene. He only says "Wait a damn minute. What's going to happen to Midgar?"

Big D

06-01-2005, 12:42 AM

That "secret cave" is really just the bottom of the materia cliff where Sephiroth and WEAPON are entombed. There's no apparent reason for why Aeris' theme is played there.

Carl the Llama

06-01-2005, 01:00 AM

As for when Barret asks about Marlene, that was back when Diamond WEAPON was approaching Midgar. Cait Sith told him then that she was somewhere safe with Elmyra. In the ending, Barret doesn't ask about Marlene. He only says "Wait a damn minute. What's going to happen to Midgar?"
i bow to you oh great final fantasy master :D

a few quick question's tho, in the begining when cloud goes to tifa's bar and they are inside the lower room, and cloud is talking to barret about his money, afterwhich tifa asks you to talk to everyone i cant seem to be able to talk to biggs, is there a way to talk to him as on one side there's boxes in the way and on the other barrets fat ass is in the way.?

and secondly, at the end you see Nanaki running along with cubs x amount of years in the futre, and i was lead to believe that he was the last of his species how can this be so?

i might tink of more questions as i play the game i know who to ask them to

Big D

06-01-2005, 01:33 AM

...at the end you see Nanaki running along with cubs x amount of years in the futre, and i was lead to believe that he was the last of his species how can this be so?Hojo is the one who said he's the last of his species, and it pays to remember that Hojo is a sad, delusional, self-important man and a second-rate scientist.

Nanaki is the last known member of his species, but that simply means that no humans know where his kin are. Bugenhagen even tells Nanaki to continue his journey partly because he "may find [his] life's mate" somewhere along the road. It looks like he was right once again.

JulioA

06-01-2005, 02:19 AM

I have been trying this http://www.angelfire.com/games/TheEquinox/ but so far have had no luck, I cant use the 4 tissues, but I have a feeling its becasue I havent gotten ressurect yet. I would love to have someone else test it out also, please keep us updated if you do.

TheAbominatrix

06-01-2005, 03:08 AM

That's a gigantic useless rumor. Aerith CAN NOT BE REVIVED. PERIOD. The tissues are useless.

SomethingBig

06-01-2005, 03:16 AM

Aeris is dead. I know, I hurt, too, when I saw her die. But I'm living on. So should all of you.

Fire_Emblem776

06-01-2005, 09:54 PM

Yes, one can get to Wutai on Disc 1.
how the hell is that possible? I cant find a path, but oh by disk 2 i find a path, what is wrong?

Masamune·1600

06-01-2005, 11:03 PM

and secondly, at the end you see Nanaki running along with cubs x amount of years in the futre, and i was lead to believe that he was the last of his species how can this be so?

That information is deceptive. While one can be led to believe that Red is the last of his species, Bugenhagen later seems to contradict this idea.

Bugenhagen: It's a wide world and you must go out and see it... You may even find your life's mate. You never know.

This would suggest, then, that he was not actually the last of his species, and that the ending is fully plausible. However, the central fact of the ending, as I see it, remains that it takes place 500 years later. Recall that no sequels were being planned at this point, and we see that the ending is the only way to ultimately affirm the success of Cloud and company. They succeeded against not only Sephiroth, but also the supposed inevitability of the Planet's death. Remember, when you first visit Cosmo Canyon, Bugenhagen views the demise of Gaia as unavoidable.

Cloud: ......When the planet dies?

Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. It may be tomorrow, or 100 years from now... But it's
not long off.

Cloud: How do you know this?

Bugenhagen: I hear the cries of the Planet.

Cloud: What's that?

Bugenhagen: The sound of the stars in the heavens. While this goes on, planets
are born, and die.

Cloud: What was that?

Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. That was a scream from this planet. Didn't you hear it?
As if to say... I hurt, I suffer......

Red XIII: They have come here on a journey to save the planet. Why don't you
show them your apparatus?

Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. To save the planet? Ho Ho Hoooo! But, then again, I
guess it wouldn't hurt to show him.

and

Bugenhagen: Listen, Nanaki. Cloud says they are trying to save the planet.
Honestly, I don't think it can be done. For even if they stop every reactor on
the planet, it's only going to postpone the inevitable. Even if they stop
Sephiroth, everything will perish. But, Nanaki. I've been thinking lately. I've
been thinking if there was anything WE could do, as a part of the planet,
something to help a planet already in misery... No matter what happens, isn't it
important to try? Am I just wishing against fate?

One important aspect of the ending, then, is that the Planet, and by extension its Lifestream, survive.

I have been trying this http://www.angelfire.com/games/TheEquinox/ but so far have had no luck, I cant use the 4 tissues, but I have a feeling its becasue I havent gotten ressurect yet. I would love to have someone else test it out also, please keep us updated if you do.

Aeris cannot be resurrected; in fact, a recent thread by Squall of SeeD utilizes statements form the creators of the story to show that her death was fully intended, and that a resurrection was never planned. Anything to the contrary is simply a rumor.

More to the point, however, The Equinox rumor is blatantly false. How so? The creator of the site had altered it to show that it was a rumor of his creation, and even outlines the steps he took to create the false screenshots. The explanatory version of The Equinox, which completely deconstructs this rumor, has unfortunately been removed at the present time. Suffice it to say that this rumor, like all rumors that pertain to an ostensible Aeris resurrection, is false.

Yes, one can get to Wutai on Disc 1.
how the hell is that possible? I cant find a path, but oh by disk 2 i find a path, what is wrong?

Immediately after acquiring the Tiny Bronco, you should find yourself in the shallows relatively near the Wutai continent. Proceed to the continent. If Yuffie has joined your party, there will obviously be the Wilderness event where she steals your materia and the party is attacked by Shinra troops. If you don't have her, this event will not take place (it can happen later, though). Either way, there should be a relatively striaghtforward path to follow, during which you will cross several bridges. There is one bridge which leads to something of a dead end, but that leaves only one direction to follow. Really, the path is the same on both Discs 1 and 2. I would recommend simply trying again.

Destai

06-01-2005, 11:59 PM

That's a gigantic useless rumor. Aerith CAN NOT BE REVIVED. PERIOD. The tissues are useless.You're a god damn liar :cry:

TheAbominatrix

06-02-2005, 12:04 AM

That's a gigantic useless rumor. Aerith CAN NOT BE REVIVED. PERIOD. The tissues are useless.You're a god damn liar :cry:

...

...

I've been found out. She can be revived... I JUST WANTED HER ALL TO MYSELF!!!! ;__________;

Fire_Emblem776

06-02-2005, 01:01 AM

Fire_Emblem776

06-02-2005, 01:15 AM

Squall of SeeD

06-02-2005, 05:07 AM

furthermore she was to die at the ice cave not the forgotin capital. on

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_errors.shtml
their is much "proof"
i never noticed the error in the game. But they are not really errors of the game was never complted?
why does seperoth have no cloves at the top. ANd gloves at the bottom of the screen when he kills ares. And the background has no capital in it. so she was to die later in the game not in disk 1!!

That's hardly proof of any such thing. The article you're speaking of (this is the link for it, rather than the link you provided: http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/sa_seen4.shtml ) has several errors, or things that were not considered:

1) The light that is seen behind the Sephiroth form is shining on Cloud's face before the Sephiroth form ever appears.

2) This same light was completely surrounding Aerith.

3) The camera smoothly transitions upward from Aerith's positon on the altar in the City of the Ancients to the area above from which the Sephiroth form descends.

4) Aerith can, indeed, be seen while the Sephiroth form is still without gloves.

5) The scene is full of errors:

Depending on the version one is playing, when approaching the altar, she either has her back to the stairs or is facing them. In any event, when Cloud gets up there and holds his sword above her, she's facing the stairs. As the FMV of her death begins, she is still facing the stairs. When the Sephiroth form descends, it isn't wearing gloves, nor is there glass dome around the altar any longer. When Aerith is skewered, not only is the Sephiroth form now wearing gloves, but the stairs are behind both Aerith and the Sephiroth form. When the FMV ends, the Sephiroth form is now facing the stairs and there is a glass dome around the altar once again.

As far as everything around the altar being dark, that was obviously to put the Sephiroth form and Aerith as the focus of the scene.

The only "evidence" for such a theory is Aerith's "I'm sick of this" line at the Great Glacier, which hardly makes sense as a piece of evidence in the first place since Yuffie and Cid can have lines earlier in the game than one is supposed to have acquired them.

Big D

06-02-2005, 07:31 AM

The FFVII Citadel is chock-full of unsubstantiated rumours. Just looking at their 'errors' page, many of the 'mistakes' - such as Tseng's age - can be explained away quite easily.

If you believed everything you read at the FFVII Citadel, you could revive Aeris using tissues, then get her to ride a silver chocobo into space and defeat Meteor in battle, before returning to the Planet to confront Mako Weapon, Cheese Weapon and Octagon Weapon. It's ridiculous.

Fire_Emblem776

06-02-2005, 02:58 PM

Squall of SeeD

06-02-2005, 03:23 PM

That "secret cave" is really just the bottom of the materia cliff where Sephiroth and WEAPON are entombed. There's no apparent reason for why Aeris' theme is played there.

but i want it to be true!! I miss her i leveld her up so much! And she dies after one boss. I useed her limit once on a boss....

ahh conspiracy, the death scene the ghost
the debug room *sigh*
we will never know

We already know, emblem. Read this Thread: Linkage (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62427).

And for an expanded debunking that touches upon things like that ridiculus "ghost," read the first page of this very Thread we're in now, or refer to my FFVII Analysis site: Linkage (http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/revive.html).

Ageless_Bum

06-09-2005, 07:51 AM

An interesting point to be considered is how some will stand in the face of overhwelming evidence and excellent logic to uphold their view. Im mean this in no way to praise one person over the other. But, from a strictly unbiased perspective, SoS (through this post and his original on the subject) has made the stronger case. Not however to say he is right or wrong (remember im trying to stand unbiased in this) He has just provided much more solid evidence. This however has not detered the die hard beleivers, as inevitably we will be treated to more threads on this very subject. The point this makes me ask is "what about this situation sparks such amazing drive in people?" Understand that i do not wish to detract from this thread or change its subject, but merely to post a musing of mine. For my part i would say this points to an overly enthralling character creation on the part of the game makers, but this cannot be the only part. There have been many other deaths in games with characters that we should conceivably be close to as well, but a discussion with the staying power of this magnitude has not arisen over those. What other factor creates this desire to prove Aerith's resurection was intended