Lack of real "bad guy" presence

[Loony BoB]

I thought FFVIII was a pretty good game overall and completed it a few times over, but I was just looking at some threads about "favourite bad guys" and so on, and I thought about FFVIII's evil doers... and realised that this game really did lack bad guy presence. It was all about the heroes and saving the world but the whole "bad guy" ordeal was really lacking, I find. Hell, you didn't see the main "bad guy" (or girl as the case may be) until the final battle. To me, that's not really a good thing. I prefer the chaps like Kefka, Sephiroth and the whole Shinra crew - even Sin from FFX (despite coming across more like a natural disaster sort of thing than an evil presence bent on taking over the world) was more prominent than the various witches we faced in this game. In retrospect, FFVIII made me feel like I was a "soldier being given documented missions to take on" rather than a "hero saving the world from his great evil enemy" kind of thing. They could have thrown anyone in at the end - Barney the dinosaur for all I care - and it would have meant just as much to me as Ulti did.

Do you feel that this game was lacking a true evil presence?

[Luthien]

I would say yes. I mean, Seifer is a very mediocre "bad guy" if you ask me. And Ultimecia... well, compared to Sephiroth or Kefka, she´s a sweet angel of love and peace.

Further more, Square really blew up the critical part of the game: the final confrontation between Squall and Seifer (final part of disc 3), by giving the mic to a "semiGF", that really is completely useless. If Squall and Seifer had been able to end their rivality there (you know, one vs one), it would have gained Seifer a couple of points.

Sorry if my English is not right, I´m from Mexico.

[Squall of SeeD]

It was all about the heroes and saving the world but the whole "bad guy" ordeal was really lacking, I find. Hell, you didn't see the main "bad guy" (or girl as the case may be) until the final battle.

She's shown on Disc 3 when Squall goes into Rinoa's past.

In any event, she's the one that the characters have been dealing with since Disc 1. She was partly responsible for Galbadia's aggression and she was in possession of Edea's body. SeeD had been fighting her the entire game.



I would say yes. I mean, Seifer is a very mediocre "bad guy" if you ask me. And Ultimecia... well, compared to Sephiroth or Kefka, she´s a sweet angel of love and peace.

She was doing something worse than either of them had attempted: She was absorbing the entire universe into herself rather than killing a single world.

[Loony BoB]

That's very well and all, but I'm talking about presence rather than intent or a 'hidden upper management' position (if that makes any sense, I couldn't think of a better way to word it).

[Kamiko]

She's not very upfront about it though is she? She's kind of like Sauron in LOTR. You don't see him very much, but he's still evil and hindering you.
Maybe the reason the evil presence lacked was because you didn't really know about her until, like, the third disc?

[Skyblade]

True.

Still, I think FFX continues to hold the title of most pathetic villains. Sin was just an insane killing machine, who turned out to be a pretty nice guy once you got to know him. Yu Yevon was downright laughable. And Seymour... *Shudder*

[boys from the dwarf]

(there will be spoilers ahead.)i see your point but now ive noticed something.ultimecia isnt only at the end but all the way through the game shes possesing edea so when you fight edea you in turn fight ultimecia. also when rinoa is possesed by ultimecia and releases soceress adel that was her plan so she can control an even more powerful soceress than edea.also at the end it shows edea receiving the soceresses power so what sqaresoft has done is quite clever.(this is in chronological order.)ultimecia goes back in time to pass on her powers to end her pain.edea recieves the powers but doesnt use them. but meanwhile in the future ultimecias projecting her conceiouseness back through time to control the person who has her power so she can rule the present and past but sqall travels through time compression todestroy ultimecia only to start the time loop but the question remains is it an infinite timeloop that cant be broken so time repeats itsself or is it a time loop that will always exist but time will go on.(im confusing myself so can someone explain stufff ive missed.

[Destai]

Yes, Personally I think they should have developed Edea further into the game as a bad guy. Ultimecia felt very lacking and about as random as Necron.

[Kamiko]

It was interesting though. And Sin looked like a huge turd.
But I digress...

[Abraxas]

Answering the main question, I don't think there was a lack of evil presence on FFVIII-
I think the best villains are always hidden in mistery, and that they show themselves only when is necessary.
The best villains, like Sauron (as Kamiko well says), Emperor Palpatine, that freaky A.I. entity of Matrix III, Mephisto, Luthor, Darksaid... are always like that.
When I finally faced Ultimecia, I was impressed and just tought "Finally I meet you!". It wouldn't be the same if we saw her various times laughing evily behind a crystall ball or looking in a "mirror of time" or something, just waiting...

[boys from the dwarf]

necron is not just a obsacle to get in your way of game completion as it has been mentioned in various other threads he does have his purpose.

[Kamiko]

That's not the point here.... :fpsweat:

[Abraxas]

Answering the main question, I don't think there was a lack of evil presence on FFVIII-
I think the best villains are always hidden in mistery, and that they show themselves only when is necessary.
The best villains, like Sauron (as Kamiko well says), Emperor Palpatine, that freaky A.I. entity of Matrix III, Mephisto, Luthor, Darksaid... are always like that.
When I finally faced Ultimecia, I was impressed and just tought "Finally I meet you!". It wouldn't be the same if we saw her various times laughing evily behind a crystall ball or looking in a "mirror of time" or something, just waiting...

and don't forget that if the Ultimecia=Rinoa theory is correct, the villain's background gets stronger and more tragical...

[Kamiko]

But there's no proof of that, and it's never mention besides in FFVIII theories. A regular person, just playing the game, would feel less menace from the bad guy than say, FFVII.

[Loony BoB]

I guess one other key word that I missed out of my first post that is equally important to 'presence' would be 'depth' - I found the only bad guy in this game with any depth was Seifer, and they ruined that one by having him live and be happy and dandy at the end of it. Which was okay, but it meant that the only enemy with any depth was actually a good guy in the end anyway - where's the fun in that? Need more character depth! What was her background story? Her reason for taking over the world? Such a one dimensional bad guy it's insane. Sin at least had a twist to his story. But Ulti? She, uh, wanted to take over time. Reason? Pshaw! Who needs reason!

This is why I loved Sephiroth. Now that was depth and presence more than anything else. But yeah, Ulti really needed a lot of reworking, in my opinion.

[Squall of SeeD]

I guess one other key word that I missed out of my first post that is equally important to 'presence' would be 'depth' - I found the only bad guy in this game with any depth was Seifer, and they ruined that one by having him live and be happy and dandy at the end of it. Which was okay, but it meant that the only enemy with any depth was actually a good guy in the end anyway - where's the fun in that? Need more character depth! What was her background story? Her reason for taking over the world? Such a one dimensional bad guy it's insane. Sin at least had a twist to his story. But Ulti? She, uh, wanted to take over time. Reason? Pshaw! Who needs reason!

This is why I loved Sephiroth. Now that was depth and presence more than anything else. But yeah, Ulti really needed a lot of reworking, in my opinion.

When examining her in light of every other story, she might seem a little lacking in depth, but when examining her in the context of her own story (it taking concepts from the Fairy Tale formula of the beautiful perfect princess (Rinoa) and the evil Witch who is evil pretty much for the sake of it (Ultimecia)) I think it works wonderfully.

[crazybayman]

Its true, they don't portray much depth into Ultimecia's character.

Yes you know she's there, as later in the game you find out that Edea was being controlled by her. However, they don't develop the character Ultimecia, as they do Sephiroth, for instance. From the beginning, you get to know Sephiroth, and he eventually takes a turn for the worst, becoming evil to the point of desiring total domination and control, and even destruction of the world.

They don't really do this with Ultimecia. You don't know who she is, except that she's a sorceress from the future, who wants total control of time, and the world. Yes its totally evil, but I didn't find myself personally really anxious about kicking her a$$, as I did even with Seymour (who was a completely pathetic villain by the way, a puss who just wouldn't go away), Sephiroth, and Seifer.

I think they should have given more depth to the character of Ultimecia, by developing her in more detail, maybe giving her some sort of past, in which she becomes evil, and eventually desires domination of the world and time. This would have better portrayed her as the incredibally evil villain that she is, which would have added more depth to her character, making her more hateable, making it even more satisfying to defeat her.

Not to take anything away from FFVIII, as its one of my favorite games ever, probably tied with FFX. My point is that Looney Bob has a very valid point, in that little flaw in character development.

[rubah]

I find Edea to be an adequate villainess for teh first two discs.

[crazybayman]

I find Edea to be an adequate villainess for teh first two discs.
Yes she is.........

However, when Ultimecia leaves her, she just becomes the Matron again, leaving us without a villain that has much depth, as far as the gamer can tell. All we know before going into the future is that there is some evil sorceress that we gotta defeat, or else she'll rule time, and the world. Sure that's evil, but we still aren't familiar with the character Ultimecia enough to really despise her.

[Armisael]

Seifer and Ultimecia worked fine for me!^_^

[Optium]

That's why they have Rinoa getting posessed by Ultimecia so you
can get pissed off at that old hag messing with your girl :p

.opt

[ThroneofDravaris]

Hehe, has anyone else noticed that Square can’t create a decent female villain? Maybe Altima…

I think the main problem with Ultimecia, one which can be seen in other less successful villain such as X-Death, is that you don’t feel sorry for her. All of the more successful villains; being Sephiroth, Kuja and IMO Seymore, have a tragic side to their stories. I think the only exception to this is Kefka, who seems to be popular simply because he was entertaining. Unless you run with the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, then it’s hard to find any compassion for her. To put it simply, she’s a bitch.

[rubah]

However,

Like I said, teh *first two* discs.

[JulioA]

I would say yes. I mean, Seifer is a very mediocre "bad guy" if you ask me. And Ultimecia... well, compared to Sephiroth or Kefka, she´s a sweet angel of love and peace.

Further more, Square really blew up the critical part of the game: the final confrontation between Squall and Seifer (final part of disc 3), by giving the mic to a "semiGF", that really is completely useless. If Squall and Seifer had been able to end their rivality there (you know, one vs one), it would have gained Seifer a couple of points.

Sorry if my English is not right, I´m from Mexico.

Where in Mexico, Im from Tijuana.

[Del Murder]

Edea was pretty bad for her time, but I agree that Ulti didn't fill my villain fix like Sephiroth, Kefka, Kuja and the rest.

[Khimbar]

I think that the reason FFVIII was a little lacking in some areas is because for VII, Square went all out, using an orchestra for the soundtrack, the first FF for PS, etc. and I guess they were a little worn out when working on VIII, and I've also read that when they finished VIII, Square wanted to jump to X, so they just made IX a filler (Less work).

But thats just my two cents... :D

[Optium]

Where'd you hear that about 9? I disagree and think that statement is
false. Tihi.

.opt

[Squall of SeeD]

Considering that IX required at least as much work as any previous FF (if not more; its graphics are more advanced than VIII's and its FMV sequences are usually as long or longer), it certainly wasn't "filler." It was a homage to the last eight titles in the series, yes, but it wasn't a rehash in any sense. It was its own well thought out story that happened to pay homage to eight others in various ways.

[Delta]

I say yes, sefier was just a little prick running around being semi-evi so he wasn't as good as sephorith or Kuja.

[Yamaguchi Oyabun]

Yeah I must agree with topic creator. I really like FFVIII (not a fave but I like) but it lacked a good explaination for the villain like other games. Ultimecia is great and evil and all and was alot better final encounter than Sephiroth's 2 forms u fight at the end of FFVII (Seph first form was pitiful, while Safer Seph was a rip-off of Kefka's final form), but we as players never got to know much about her reason for time compression all what led her to that reason. A little more mention of her background and fill in a little more plotholes would have just made this game have that much more impact to the player, hence making it stand tall amongs the other FF.

[Ravenmorghane]

The only things that really scared me in this game were a few of the demons (marlboro, forbidden etc) and the secret GFs Bahamut, Odin and bloody Cactuar king and they join your side if you defeat them anyway! I found seifer too sexy to be scared by and he was too shallow to admire as a 'baddie'. Edea and Seifer just irritated me like hell, compared to FF7 where Sephiroth had motivation and a huge tragic story behind him where everything was connected and made sense. With FF8 it just seemed like they had made it up as they went along.

No offence to anyone, its still a good game to play. Its just a little opinion.

[Luthien]

I found the only bad guy in this game with any depth was Seifer, and they ruined that one by having him live and be happy and dandy at the end of it. Which was okay, but it meant that the only enemy with any depth was actually a good guy in the end anyway - where's the fun in that?....

This is why I loved Sephiroth. Now that was depth and presence more than anything else. But yeah, Ulti really needed a lot of reworking, in my opinion.

See? THAT´S my point here. Well said, LoonyBob :D :D :D