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Masamune·1600
06-18-2005, 06:14 AM
Since the matter of Hojo’s experimentation upon Vincent has come up several times recently, I endeavored to consider the matter more closely. Previously, I speculated that the experimentation involved JENOVA cell injections, and that his Limit Break transformations were a side effect of this treatment. However, I now find it more likely that Vincent did not receive JENOVA treatment, or, if he did, suffered adverse reaction to it.

My reasoning for this deals with the concept of Limit Breaks in FFVII. All party members, notably, have Limit capabilities. Enemies, on the other hand, do not. While this would seem to be a mere battle convention, the matter becomes more complicated when one considers that, in the Kalm flashback, neither Sephiroth nor “Cloud” (in effect, Zack) are able to use Limit Breaks. More striking still is that Limit potential seems inherent to all human beings; recall the scene in Beginner’s Hall where Cloud instructs a young boy on Limit Breaks. Here, we see a child, outside of battle physics, unleash a powerful attack after receiving a certain amount of punishment. One might even look to the man in the Battle Arena who wants to use an overpowered kick technique against Meteor. These examples belie such a conventional view of the Limit Break. However, an explanation can be reached.

My thesis, in essence, is that bodily acceptance of JENOVA cells sterilizes one’s Limit potential; he or she loses the ability to unleash Limit Breaks. The acceptance of the JENOVA cells is crucial; Cloud’s adverse reaction to them would leave him fully capable of Limit use.


Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me.


As JENOVA is certainly an alien, malignant, and altogether unnatural entity, it makes a degree of sense that JENOVA cells might neutralize inherent Limit ability. However, one must consider precisely why any being is capable of Limit Break use in the first place. I believe that this is due to the Lifestream. Carrying the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients, and the very life of the planet, it is capable of manifesting itself powerfully. In organic beings, comprised from Spirit Energy and derived from the Lifestream, this power can be realized in Limit techniques. It can be theorized, then, that JENOVA, an otherworldly being (and perhaps this otherworld having its own Lifestream as well, similar to the situation in FF: TSW; Squall of SeeD’s Spirit Energy and Memories (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60438) thread offers a complete overview of this idea) would be contradictory to the intent of the Lifestream, manifested in Spirit Energy. Thus, acceptance of this alien form might negate the ability of the Lifestream to allow Limit use.

Outside of humans whose bodies have accepted JENOVA therapy, then, all people are able to use some form of a Limit Break. However, we must next address the problem of monsters. Among the myriad monsters that populate Gaia, none uses or has a Limit technique. Further, as evidenced by Red XIII, Limit Breaks are not exclusive to humans (furthering the point created by Limit/Lifestream theory). However, drawing on the idea of JENOVA treatment, an explanation can be reached. Recall that the entity JENOVA, on first reaching the planet, infected the Cetra at the Knowlespole with a virus. Ifalna, as recorded at the Icicle Inn tapes, goes on to state that these Cetra turned into monsters. She also notes that JENOVA moved on and infected other Cetra clans.


Ifalna: Yes, the energy that was needed to heal the Planet withered away the
land... then the Planet... The Planet tried to persuade the Cetra to leave the
Knowlespole, but...

Gast: Ifalna... Let's take a break.

Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved... That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.

Gast: Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea.

Ifalna: That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them,
and finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus
and went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the
virus...


Now, the game makes it clear that Mako, in excess quantities, has mutagenic properties. One needs only recall the Kalm flashback, where Hojo had created monsters by this very technique.


Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with
Mako. You're different from the others, but still human. But, what are they?
They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud: ...is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters.


However, the game also suggests that this was to blame for an increase in monster attacks. We can assume, then (as we logically would, anyway), that monsters predate Mako technology. If this is the case, then it is entirely possible that monsters are the descendents of the Cetra originally infected and transformed by Jenova.

In-game enemies can be subdivided into three primary groups: monsters, humans, and robots/machinery. By this thesis, the vast majority of monsters can be presumed to have no Limit capabilities as a result of their original infection. Even if the original Cetra did not “accept” the infection, the JENOVA cells in any progeny would have likely been integrated naturally (similar to Sephiroth having been given JENOVA treatment prior to birth). Thus, JENOVA acceptance explains away the inability of monsters to use Limit Breaks, barring an exception that will be addressed later in this document. We are left, however, with the questions of human opponents and mechanical foes.

Most robots/machines are incapable of using Limits, which can easily be explained since they are inorganic beings. As a result, the Lifestream could not generate Limit potential within them. This calls into question, however, Cait Sith. This issue will be addressed at a later point in the thread.

Humans, however, prove the most troublesome. The theory immediately explains why Sephiroth, Zack, SOLDIER: 3rd’s, SOLDIER: 2nd’s, and SOLDIER: 1st’s have no Limit abilities. However, there do appear to be humans encountered in battle with no Limit Breaks, and no JENOVA exposure. These humans are, specifically, the Turks, Palmer, Rufus, and a variety of grunt soldiers, lackeys, and henchmen.

At this point, I will examine all characters and opponents which would, in one way or another, seem to be at odds with the Limit sterilization theory.

First, I will address Vincent Valentine. As a result of this theory, I now believe that Hojo’s experimentation and anatomical reconstruction did not involve JENOVA cell use. Alternatively, if it did, Vincent’s body rejected the therapy. However, the possibility remains that Vincent was given and accepted JENOVA cells. Despite earlier claims, however, Vincent’s unique case might still allow for Limit use under these circumstances. Recall, first, that Vincent was probably killed after being shot by Hojo. Anatomic reconstruction and experimentation, however, restored Vincent to life. This is suggested by a passage from the Ehrgeiz manual…


An ex-gunman of the Shinra Intelligence Sector (The Turks) who has had a dark past and was put to sleep in the Shinra Mansion. After being killed by someone within the Shinra Mansion, Vincent underwent anatomic reconstruction, and was brought back to life. He now possesses new and improved abilities beyond those of normal men.

…as well as the depiction of a dead-on shot in the waterfall flashback. His death and resuscitation would also explain the fact that Vincent has not aged for roughly thirty years. It is important, however, to remember that Vincent is not undead; note that, at the least, curative magic does not harm him. Vincent, then, exists as a revived being. I feel, then, that he may have a subconscious understanding of or connection to the Lifestream, allowing him to realize Limit potential. However, said death (and possible JENOVA therapy acceptance) result in unnatural Limit manifestation. Hence, we have Vincent’s transformations, atypical and perhaps unnatural expressions of Limit ability.

Next, I will examine storyline humans who can be assumed not to have received JENOVA therapy. This includes the Turks, Palmer, and Rufus. There seems to be no explanation for the inability to use Limits. However, I feel that it is entirely possible that these individuals can, in fact, use Limit Breaks! As a result of the story, though, it can never happen. Note that these characters are never killed after they are vanquished in battle. Every time the Turks are defeated, they retreat. Rufus escapes via helicopter after battling Cloud. Palmer runs away in Rocket Town (although he does get hit by a truck :D) It is my contention, then, that their Limit gauges simply never fill. Recall that, in Battle Square, a weak hit can fill the Limit gauge if one’s max HP has been significantly reduced by the penalties. If we assume these characters to have immense max HP (perhaps by means of excessive HP Plus materia artificial augmentation), then the damage inflicted by the party would not be sufficient to raise the Limit gauge to the point of Break.

There is another possible explanation, which must necessarily be examined in the case of grunt soldiers and other minor human opponents. These figures often do appear to die after falling in battle. One would assume, then, that a near-fatal hit or succession of hits should allow for Limit status. There may be, however, a reason why such is not the case. Note that, for example, Sadness status reduces the rate at which the Limit gauge rises. Emotion clearly plays a role in Limit Breaks, and it may simply be that, while in combat, some people are simply incapable of realizing or calling upon their innate ability in critical situations. Alternatively, battle inexperience, fear, carelessness, or a variety of similar factors might cause the gauge to rise extremely slowly.

This should cover any questions regarding human beings. Machines, as already mentioned, simply should not have Limit Breaks. However, Cait Sith clearly contradicts this idea. There are, however, key differences in his case. Note first that most machines seem to operate by means of some AI system. Cait Sith, however, is controlled by Reeve, a human who presumably has some sort of Limit ability. Also, recall that the start-up manual describes the giant Mog upon which Cait Sith rides as having been brought to life by magical means.


Cait Sith rides around on the back of a huge stuffed Mog he magically brought to life.

I would contend, then, that Cait Sith’s Limit Breaks are actually an extension of Reeve’s own Limit abilities. Magic in FFVII suggests Spirit Energy or materia in some form, which could have conceivably been integrated into Cait Sith. In this way, Reeve’s Limit ability could be channeled through Cait Sith and manifested as Dice or Slots. Reeve, however, would not actually be performing the Limit Break(s). This explains, as I see it, why Cait Sith is the only character not to have four levels of Limits, or to need a manual to “learn” the final Limit. Cait Sith’s Limits are something of a vicarious experience, and so do not wholly correspond toward normal Limit patterns.

Monsters have been, for the most part, explained. However, we must examine one more case. This is, of course, WEAPON. Described by Hojo as…


Hojo: ...Weapon. Monsters created by the Planet.

…it would seem that JENOVA played no role in their creation. In fact, according to Ifalna, WEAPON was created to combat JENOVA. In the case of WEAPON, however, I would argue that Limits are indeed manifested! Recall that Emerald, Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond, and Ultimate Weapons all use stylized energy attacks. Emerald has Emerald Shoot and Emerald Beam; Ruby has Ruby Ray (and possibly Ruby Flame as well); Diamond has Diamond Flash; Ultimate has Ultima Beam. While the party never actually fights Sapphire, it clearly attacks Junon with a sort of energy beam, a technique consistent of the other monsters of WEAPON. Of course, these attacks require no gauge, no damage impetus. This can be explained, however, in that WEAPON was created as, well, a weapon. Its original purpose, as described by Ifalna, was to combat JENOVA.


Gast: Ifalna, can you comment on the thing called 'Weapon'?

Ifalna: Yes, Professor. The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was
named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'. The Planet knew it had to
destroy the 'crisis from the sky'... You see, as long as Jenova exists, the
Planet will never be able to fully heal itself."

Gast: Back then, Weapon was a weapon the Planet produced of its own will?

Ifalna: Yes, but... There is no record of Weapon ever being used. A small
number of the surviving Cetra defeated Jenova, and confined it. The Planet
produced Weapon... But it was no longer necessary to use it.


Later, Hojo describes WEAPON as having the ultimate purpose of returning Spirit Energy to the Lifestream by causing death.


Hojo: Weapon... Then it really does exist... I didn't believe in it.

Rufus: What does this mean?

Hojo: ...Weapon. Monsters created by the Planet. It appears when the Planet is
in danger, reducing everything to nothingness. That's what was stated in
Professor Gast's report.


In this case, the aspects of WEAPON may have been granted a unique gift; immediate access to Limit use. Note that in this thread (http://www.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=63396) we see Ultima Beam described as a refined attack utilizing the Lifestream. Presumably, however, if even WEAPON were somehow infected by JENOVA, Limit ability would be lost, or somehow compromised.

Thus, we return to the original point. Comprised of Spirit Energy, organic beings are capable of utilizing that energy, the stuff of the Lifestream, to perform specialized attacks. However, if the body accepts a malignant foreign host, this ability is lost or compromised. This would seem to be the case with Sephiroth, Zack, and all members of SOLDIER. Likewise, JENOVA-created monsters would have had their Limit ability ‘sterilized.’ And most robots, non-organic entities, would never have had Limit access in the first place. In general, however, the Limit Break seems innate to natural beings of Gaia.

As always, your thoughts, opinions, and comments are appreciated.

Squall of SeeD
06-18-2005, 12:30 PM
(Spoilers for Final Fantasy VII and IX ahead)

You've put a lot of thought into this, I see, masamune, though I ponder whether there might an even more simple explanation for the apparent lack of Limit Breaks in anyone other than AVALANCHE and the kid in Beginner's Hall. Perhaps monsters are simply dealt fatal blows before they can access a Limit Break? In Final Fantasy IX, we learn of Trance, which is the same thing as Limit Breaks. According to Kuja, anything that lives can utilize Trance, a response that can be triggered by emotion or -- most commonly -- by the host of Spirit Energy being in imminent danger of perishing.

Despite anything have access to this surge of energy, we only ever see Madeen and Kuja (empowered by souls that were trapped in the Invincible) utilize it. It must be that all other creatures are simply killed before they ever have a chance to access Trance.

That is not to say, however, that monsters in VII certainly should be able to access Trance/Limit Breaks. I believe it quite possible that the monsters across Gaia in VII were descended from the mutated Cetra, as many creatures appear to have no environmental benefit for their respective environments, as creatures in reality tend to do. Further, based on The Spirits Within, we know that two opposing energy waves overlapping will negate one another, so perhaps it's conceivable that JENOVA's Spirit Energy (it must have some to be alive) neutralizes Limit Breaks. But in this event, Cloud should most certainly not be able to access his.

If accepting JENOVA's Cells were a required matter, even them being carried on into the progeny of the mutated Cetra would leave an issue in that it's Spirit Energy from the Planet that is granting life to the monsters, and that there isn't a presence of Spirit Energy from JENOVA within them to overlap with Gaia's own and negate Limit Breaks. Further still, JENOVA Cells couldn't be present in the progeny of at least the monsters during the game's present, or we would be seeing a mass migration of creatures toward the Northern Crater for the Reunion. The monsters don't have JENOVA Cells in them during the present, nor JENOVA's Spirit Energy, so they should be fully capable of accessing Limit Breaks. Interestingly enough, they can access the special "Limit Break" in the game, All Lucky 7s, the same as party members can.

Anyway, I agree with you concerning the matter of Cait Sith's Limit Breaks being less in number due to the roundabout manner that Reeve's Spirit Energy would be channeled through them. The Cat certainly has Spirit Energy being channeled into it due to the fact that it can use Materia, which act as a link between an individual and the Lifestream.

There's a couple more things I wanted to touch on. First, the matter of Mako causing mutations. I believe that those creatures in the pods outside of JENOVA's Room were exposed to the creature's Cells and that it was the cause of their mutations. This would fit with the fact that these pods are all hooked up to stuff right outside of JENOVA's containtment area. While Hojo certainly was exposing the creatures to Mako, we know that he always seemed to infuse creatures with Mako that he injected with JENOVA Cells. That does leave the matter of the monsters in the area, however, so perhaps the Mako mutated them, but in the case of the pod creatures, I think it was probably JENOVA's Cells.

There'd really be no reason for Hojo to be testing Mako effects at that point anyway. He should already know what he can do with it. That he would be trying to test the Reunion Theory, however, makes a bit more sense, especially in light of him immediately having the survivors of the massacre in Nibelheim rounded up to test that experiment, and then injecting them with JENOVA's Cells and infusing them with Mako.

Finally, I wanted to mention Vincent. I don't know if he has JENOVA Cells within him or not to be honest. There's a good bit that could be said either way. But I think that if he does, his behaviour being different from that of the Sephiroth Clones could be explained in how he looks at himself. Just like Lucrecia, someone that we know had JENOVA Cells, wasn't forced to go to the Reunion, despite feeling its call (she says that she had been seeing Sephiroth in her dreams in the recent time preceding her visit from AVALANCHE; similarily, the Junon Accessory Shop owner, a former member of SOLDIER, says that he had "recently" (his own word) been feeling the inclination to dress up in a black cloak, though he didn't know why).

Both Vincent and Lucrecia speak of themselves in the same way: Sinners that failed those they should have protected. I think this pertains to the matter of self-acceptance as giving one a strong will. Neither Cloud, nor Lucrecia, nor Vincent liked themselves, yet they all (eventually) accepted themselves for who they were. When Cloud tried to hide his true self, it made him weak. When he accepted it and admitted it to those closest to him, he became strong, easily purging Sephiroth from his mind during the ending, the only mental ordeal he has concerning Sephiroth after the incident in Mideel.

People that accept themselves (like Zack, for instance, a confident ladies' man according to Aerith) have no problem with JENOVA. In accepting himself for who he was, even if he didn't like himself, Vincent could have been able to resist JENOVA's power.


Anyway, that's all I've got. I can see you put a lot of thought into this, and I hope I've somehow added something of value to your investigation.

boys from the dwarf
06-18-2005, 01:08 PM
you guys have a lot of spare time. do you think you could but that a bit smaller so a lot more of the people online can bes arsed to read it?

Destai
06-18-2005, 02:33 PM
Masamune, Im open to theories but personally I cant imagine the workings of the battle system having a bearing on the storyline. I think thats expecting too much from Square and I dont think the game is nearly that well thought out. With that in mind I cant see that theory as much more than, well...a theory. I mean I dont think average monsters usually have any bearing on the storyline in FF's except for slight points in IX and VIII but I dont think VII gave the monsters any role in the storyline.

Ageless_Bum
06-18-2005, 09:20 PM
Interesting theory.

As for Destai's comment, I believe these forums were set up for just such a "theory" discussion, reguardless of its provability.

I would add only one thing to the subject, though it is my own opinion. There really doesnt seem to be anything the shows that monsters cant use limit breaks. If anything, to me, the enemy skills abilities seem to suggest that they do have it.

Also, For my own part, I have trouble accepting any explination for a question that draws on other FF worlds. I always thought they were meant to be completely independant universes. If this is true, then the physics that control one world would have no bearing on the others

anyway, doubt i have actually added anything of worth , but well there it is ...

Destai
06-18-2005, 09:22 PM
As for Destai's comment, I believe these forums were set up for just such a "theory" discussion, reguardless of its provability.
Yes Im aware of that. I dont see what your point is.

Ageless_Bum
06-18-2005, 09:27 PM
A discussion for another time and a speacific thread

Luthien Rogue
06-18-2005, 09:32 PM
you guys have a lot of spare time. do you think you could but that a bit smaller so a lot more of the people online can bes arsed to read it?

No kidding, eh? :rolleyes2 :D I forget-am I dating Masamune or Squall of SeeD? :erm:

Squall of SeeD
06-18-2005, 10:44 PM
Also, For my own part, I have trouble accepting any explination for a question that draws on other FF worlds. I always thought they were meant to be completely independant universes. If this is true, then the physics that control one world would have no bearing on the others

The creators have never suggested that to be so. In fact, when interviewed, Hironobu Sakaguchi, Yoshinori Kitase, and Kazushige Nojima have often pointed out the similarities in VII, X, and The Spirits Within. This would be due to the heavy emphasis on the power of Spirit Energy and memories that is most obvious in those three titles.




you guys have a lot of spare time. do you think you could but that a bit smaller so a lot more of the people online can bes arsed to read it?

No kidding, eh? :rolleyes2 :D I forget-am I dating Masamune or Squall of SeeD? :erm:

:mad2: :cry:

sayen
06-18-2005, 11:00 PM
nice essays you 2 shame i cant look at a comp screen long enught to read it and i dont have printer lol.

Luthien Rogue
06-18-2005, 11:14 PM
Masamune, thank you~ I had lost all interest in this game until I found you! What a wonderful theory. :)


nice essays you 2 shame i cant look at a comp screen long enught to read it and i dont have printer lol.

I agree that Masamune's essay was absolutely wonderful, but Squall of SeeD is obviously jus trying to steal some of the attention that Masamune is recieving for his brilliant essay. :D

When Squall saw this post:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/GreenTara/gasp.bmp
"Oh noes! But *I* am the FF Guru! :weep:"

He quickly thought of a response to make himself look as good as Masamune! This is what the "genius" looks like while trying to write his 23515186797619570175 page essays:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/GreenTara/PANIC.jpg

:eek: whark teh fack lollerz :confused:

Love ya, bishie. :love:

Ageless_Bum
06-18-2005, 11:47 PM
Hmm, well i guess you learn something new every day. SoS, if you could, could you give me some links to those interviews (if they are on the net). I always enjoy learning the orginal creators views on things as its obvious that mine arent always correct.

On a side, and only slightly related post script, why do you suppose there were no human enemies that did summons? Surely the matteria was there for anyone to get?

Squall of SeeD
06-19-2005, 06:42 AM
Hmm, well i guess you learn something new every day. SoS, if you could, could you give me some links to those interviews (if they are on the net). I always enjoy learning the orginal creators views on things as its obvious that mine arent always correct.

I'm not sure if they've been placed on the Internet in the first two cases, but I have the books they took place in.

Hironobu Sakaguchi: In the August 2001 issue (issue 47) of the Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine, Sakaguchi said -- concerning The Spirits Within -- "The themes of the movie deal with the concepts of life and death and the human spirit, which you'll also find in Final Fantasy VII and IX."

For a full explanation of that matter, refer to the Spirit Energy and Memories Thread that masamune1600 linked to, or -- better yet -- my Spirit Energy and Memories section of my Final Fantasy IX Plot Analysis at GameFAQs.


Yoshinori Kitase: In the interviews with developers of Final Fantasy X in the back of the BradyGames Strategy Guide, the following question is posed to Kitase with him responding as is seen below:

BradyGames: "Were any specific ideas or concepts from previous FF installments (especially from FFVII, VIII, or IX) used in FFX?"

Kitase: Nothing in particular. Actually, we followed a theme of avoiding popular elements from previous installments. The elimination of the world map and ATB system are examples of this. In terms of story, there might be similarities between the worlds of FFVII and FFX.


Kazushige Nojima: Go here: Linkage (http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/nojima.htm).

Masamune·1600
06-19-2005, 03:45 PM
[...]though I ponder whether there might an even more simple explanation for the apparent lack of Limit Breaks in anyone other than AVALANCHE and the kid in Beginner's Hall. Perhaps monsters are simply dealt fatal blows before they can access a Limit Break? In Final Fantasy IX, we learn of Trance, which is the same thing as Limit Breaks. According to Kuja, anything that lives can utilize Trance, a response that can be triggered by emotion or -- most commonly -- by the host of Spirit Energy being in imminent danger of perishing.

Well, as regards the situation of humans that never received JENOVA cells, I agree with this theory. I would apply it to monsters as well, except that I believed they may have been cut off from Limits because of JENOVA-related Limit sterilization. Your next point leads me to revise this theory, though.


Further still, JENOVA Cells couldn't be present in the progeny of at least the monsters during the game's present, or we would be seeing a mass migration of creatures toward the Northern Crater for the Reunion. The monsters don't have JENOVA Cells in them during the present, nor JENOVA's Spirit Energy, so they should be fully capable of accessing Limit Breaks. Interestingly enough, they can access the special "Limit Break" in the game, All Lucky 7s, the same as party members can.

The matter of the Reunion was certainly problematic when I was developing the theory, although I didn't want to discard it based on a single issue. My previous explanation would have been that JENOVA had not been confined by the Cetra at the time when the original ancestors of the monsters were created, and that somehow those cells weren't subject to the "summoning." That proposal has problems, of course, but it could also simply be that monsters simply do not have the range of emotion necessary to express a Limit Break. Drawing on the All Lucky 7's example, it's certainly worth noting here that while monsters can enter the 'All Lucky's 7's status' and have all techniques elevated to 7777 damage, the actual Limit-like command is never utilized. This might suggest that while the gauge can (and perhaps even does) fill, monsters are unable to express this power in a Limit technique.


you guys have a lot of spare time. do you think you could but that a bit smaller so a lot more of the people online can bes arsed to read it?

My theory was basically that bodily acceptance of JENOVA cells induced a sort of 'Limit sterilization.' This would explain why neither Sephiroth nor Zack appeared to have a Limit Break technique in the Kalm flashback. I also suggested that Limit Breaks were a manifestation of the power of the Lifestream/Spirit Energy in organic beings. I then went about defending the theory against situations that might seem problematic.

Squall, after analyzing the essay, noted a simpler explanation for monsters never using Limits and made several other points that referenced different Final Fantasies. He also, citing examples from the game, suggested that JENOVA may have been critical in creating monsters, but that monsters have no JENOVA cells during the present.


Masamune, Im open to theories but personally I cant imagine the workings of the battle system having a bearing on the storyline. I think thats expecting too much from Square and I dont think the game is nearly that well thought out. With that in mind I cant see that theory as much more than, well...a theory. I mean I dont think average monsters usually have any bearing on the storyline in FF's except for slight points in IX and VIII but I dont think VII gave the monsters any role in the storyline.

Why not? Monsters have been explained by the story in FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX/X-2. In those cases, the information was explicitly stated. While I won't claim that any of my specualation is infallible, it seems likely that the monsters of FFVII may have descended from the transformed Cetra. A connection between battle physics and game world physics has also been growing stronger in recent titles. Again, I don't claim that the theory is perfect. However, it succeeds, I believe, in linking battle and world, and in explaining a few questions left unanswered by the game.

Mercen-X
08-30-2005, 09:06 AM
If the battle system has no bearing on the story then why does the story bother to explain Materia?

ScottNUMBERS
08-30-2005, 11:06 AM
Masamune, Im open to theories but personally I cant imagine the workings of the battle system having a bearing on the storyline. I think thats expecting too much from Square and I dont think the game is nearly that well thought out. With that in mind I cant see that theory as much more than, well...a theory.

I agree.

Heres my theory on limit breaks..

Square Cronie#1: Lets make the battle system more interesting. :greenie:

Square Cronie#2: Yes, lets. :rolleyes2

Thus limit breaks were born.

Christmas
08-30-2005, 03:46 PM
Trance in FF IX play a rather important role in the plot considering the existence of Trance Kuja.

Even though this apply to FF IX but you never know..........

Ultima Shadow
08-30-2005, 03:58 PM
I've just got 1 thing to say... I FREAKING LOVE YOU GUYS!!! < Masamune∙1600 and Squal of SeeD, that is. The rest of you suck. ;)

Shoden
08-30-2005, 04:37 PM
Excellent.

SoS I got some questions for you: Where do you get this stuff from? You must love wasting spare time on essays in Eoff. Jesus this better not happen to me.

*Turns Ultima Shadow into a fish* we do not suck ;-;.

about them monsters in the pods in Nibelheim reactor, If they were linked to Jenova and bathed in mako energy does that mean that both mutated them?

I have a few more things but I'm in too much of a state to remember. Going to bed 3AM and waking up at 12PM doesn't do you good.


*Gives Squall of SeeD a cookie and Masamune one too* well done, All this stuff is making me research deeper into FF7 but I will never know as much as you guys.

bipper
08-30-2005, 11:52 PM
This game is 8 years old.. Have you guys musta started typing these essays about the time of its relese :eek:

Very well done and- very - if not too... informative :) You two should colaberate and set up a web page. Let me know when you finish your drafts on final fantasy VIII :D

Bipper

Fonzie
08-31-2005, 12:21 AM
The thing thats make's limit breaks is when the character is pissed off so much because they keep getting hit(after the 20th time of getting hit you'd get pissed off too :). I mean when you get mad you want something to unlease it on, after you do you feel better. Same thing with the characters here in the game. So Vincent was brought back to life by something. We don't know what that "something" is though. It could of been the JENOVA cells or "something" else. Hell, it could have been Mako for we all know, but the thing is we don't know what that "something" is. (Just added this to make myself feel better and seem smarter XP.) If you go to all of the Old Staff of SquareSoft about this statment they would probaley be baffled. I bet that even the Old Staff didn't know what that "something" is that resurected Vincent is. So this may or may not be true. It would be better if Square Enix got all the Old Staff of Final Fantasy together to make a re-make of the game and try to fill some of these holes so we would know a little bit more about how Vincent was resurected. Until then, we'll have to keep making these theorys. I feel better(and smarter). :D

G SpOtZ
08-31-2005, 12:50 AM
is it possible they'll tell us about Vincent in Dirge of Cerberus? cuz that'd be interesting and worth getting.

Shoden
08-31-2005, 12:57 AM
most likely more about Vincent will be revealed in DOC.

Vyk
08-31-2005, 02:29 AM
Hahaha, Squall of SeeD and Masamune are <3 You guys both rock on FF material. Love reading posts you both make pretty much regarding any FF

Fonzie
08-31-2005, 03:14 AM
Maybe their the same person O_o, or their differnet personalitys in the same body.

Mercen-X
08-31-2005, 09:35 PM
:confused: So, a Gaian's spirit energy allows them (under special circumstances) to use limit breaks? How does spirit energy allow Cid to pull a stick of dynamite out of his pocket or use a remote to call the Highwind? How does spirit energy allow Barret to signal a satellite blast from space?

G SpOtZ
08-31-2005, 09:54 PM
:confused: So, a Gaian's spirit energy allows them (under special circumstances) to use limit breaks? How does spirit energy allow Cid to pull a stick of dynamite out of his pocket or use a remote to call the Highwind? How does spirit energy allow Barret to signal a satellite blast from space?
thas a good point. same with cids highwind limit.

Masamune·1600
08-31-2005, 10:32 PM
While I haven't considered it very carefully yet, I believe I may have developed a storyline explanation for something that previously seemed to be entirely an aspect of gameplay.

WEAPON, as previously stated, may at least partially serve the purpose of returning Spirit Energy to the Planet. This would, naturally, strengthen the Lifestream.

In the game, characters obtain new Limit Break levels after defeating a varying number of enemies. Assuming my Limit/Spirit Energy thesis to be at least somewhat accurate, it's possible that the Spirit Energy returned to the Planet is what allows the characters to heighten their Limit abilities.


:confused: So, a Gaian's spirit energy allows them (under special circumstances) to use limit breaks? How does spirit energy allow Cid to pull a stick of dynamite out of his pocket or use a remote to call the Highwind? How does spirit energy allow Barret to signal a satellite blast from space?

This is a difficult question, I must admit. One would also have to question, however, why Barret (for example) would have access to an unfathomably advanced piece of technology, given that man only first reaches space during the events of the game.

The only explanation I can offer at the moment would be that the energy utilized during those attacks is actually derivative of the Lifestream. Satellite Beam, for example, might be the manifestation of Barret's Spirit Energy in an attack form (similar to the Sister Ray, only without the negative aspect of Mako consumption). Similarly, the missles from the Highwind could somehow be infused with Limit power (this would certainly be the more taxing part of the Limit; one would think Cid wouldn't need to use a Limit manual to remotely access the Highwind). Even Dynamite could be argued to be a manifestation of Spirit Energy (at least in a sense).

Another possiblity concerns the characters in question. Most of the time, Limits seem to revolve around the nature of the weapon a character uses. Barett, whose weapons are clearly "technological" in nature, may have thusly tied his Spirit Energy to technology. Similarly, Cid wholeheartedly advocates the potential of science.


Cid: Yeah, I understand. I understand that Materia is precious, and also
understand what you're thinking. But listen. I don't give a rat's ass whether
it's science or magical power. No, I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather put my
money on the power of science. Humans who used to only roam around on the ground
are able to fly now! And finally, we're about to go into outer space. Science is
a "Power" created and developed by humans. And science just might be what saves
this planet. I was able to earn my living thanks to science. So to me, there's
nothing greater! Now quit your worrying 'bout what Shinra's gonna do! I don't
want to regret not having done something later.

As such, his Limits might at times manifest in "scientific" ways.

These answers are obviously not perfect, and I'm not sure they can be perfected. Regardless, I believe the overall premise can survive intact, as a Limit like Satellite Beam is somewhat illogical no matter how one approaches it.

G SpOtZ
09-01-2005, 04:37 AM
i have a question... ermm.... questionS....

Would any of this determine how MANY possible limits an individual can have? Everybody has 2 different limits per each limit level (except for the 4th). What determines that each person HAS to have this number of limit breaks?
Also, each character needs a level 4 limit break MANUAL to learn it. What exactly is this "manual" and does it involve spirit energy? Is it an item that you learn the limit from? How would any of this stuff you talked about relate to a manual?

Sorry for all the questions ^_^ just curious as to how you'll answer this because i'm very interested in you're explainations.

Ageless_Bum
09-01-2005, 05:22 AM
The idea of finding an "item" for the final limit level doesnt realy bother me ( Even in this theoretical discusion) because one can assume a decent explination on almost all of them due to where they are found in correspondence to that characters individual story. Save my one exception, which is Cloud. The aquisition of his level four does bother me (both in the context of this discussion and otherwise). It is seemingly attainable by anyone. Anyone who gains enough battle points can get this limit break (note I dont mean learn it). But, if as the fact that it is attainable by everyone suggests anything to me, it is that some limit breaks other than the 7777 are universal. Of course the other question then is why cant the others get omnislash as well. Its still in the list of prizes even after bought, though it does say one per customer. I realise I have presented this in a quasi-simplistic manner (IE the implication arent all stated and my statements are "dumbed down"), but all the same I think it has bearing on the discussion.

Mercen-X
09-01-2005, 05:26 AM
1. At what point in the game does it refer to the Limit items as "manuals"? I think they're more a significant item to boost their Limit level, and they already know their final attack. The item just allows the capacity to use it.

2. I think I've constructed a little bitty.

Cid's Highwind attack is definitely an overextended and cumulative version of Matra Magic, which is an E. Skill. Obviously, (despite my earlier denial) it does make sense if only because Matra Magic is present in the game.

Cid's Dynamite attack is also strange, but I think I understand it now. The question of where the weapon comes from is how the spirit energy ties in. I believe in this case it's like Fullmetal Alchemist. His spirit energy makes him a Dragoon/Alchemist and he merely transmutes available items into Dynamite.

Barret's Satellite Beam, imo, really is connected to a satellite, but by no normal means could Barret contact the satellite to fire on his enemies. I believe the spirit energy is what allows him to communicate with, at least, the satellite.

All simple enough explanations when using the current theory.

Ultima Shadow
09-01-2005, 04:49 PM
Maybe their the same person O_o, or their differnet personalitys in the same body.That's old. :)

I just come up with a new, intressting theory. The SoS= M1600 theory!!!

masamune1600 will, in fact, become Squall of SeeD in the future. However... Squall of SeeD don't want to be in the future. He wants to be right here NOW, not in the future... so therefore he used time-havoc. When time-havoc is used, anything time-releated can happen. Yes, that's right... ANYTHING! The first thing that happened was that Squall of SeeD's nose got 7 years younger, which was pretty cool... but a bit annoying at the same time. Anyways... he just tried again, and the second time, he was lucky! He did indeed get teleported from the future to the past! YAY! So now masamune1600's real form and future form can exist at the same time, making awesome kick-ass posts that makes too much sense to be true. :cool:

Shoden
09-01-2005, 05:16 PM
*head explodes*

this is all so complicated.

bipper
09-01-2005, 05:55 PM
1. At what point in the game does it refer to the Limit items as "manuals"? I think they're more a significant item to boost their Limit level, and they already know their final attack. The item just allows the capacity to use it.

2. I think I've constructed a little bitty.

Cid's Highwind attack is definitely an overextended and cumulative version of Matra Magic, which is an E. Skill. Obviously, (despite my earlier denial) it does make sense if only because Matra Magic is present in the game.

Cid's Dynamite attack is also strange, but I think I understand it now. The question of where the weapon comes from is how the spirit energy ties in. I believe in this case it's like Fullmetal Alchemist. His spirit energy makes him a Dragoon/Alchemist and he merely transmutes available items into Dynamite.

Barret's Satellite Beam, imo, really is connected to a satellite, but by no normal means could Barret contact the satellite to fire on his enemies. I believe the spirit energy is what allows him to communicate with, at least, the satellite.
Let me try this one boys. *cracks kunckles*

1: When tifa gets her level 4. Isn't in the form of instructions?
2: Never made sence to me anyways :D
I always figured that throwing a stick of dynamite would be kinda a last resort psyco thing to do when your fighting head on with enemies anyways. I don't put much stock in the fact that the 'spirit energy' allows for any of this to happen. They are just attacks. Barrets I can sorta see if it is that energy accumulating. But i think Satelite beam proves that they are just attacks :)

Mercen-X
09-02-2005, 08:07 AM
1: When tifa gets her level 4. Isn't in the form of instructions?
2: Never made sence to me anyways :D
I always figured that throwing a stick of dynamite would be kinda a last resort psyco thing to do when your fighting head on with enemies anyways. I don't put much stock in the fact that the 'spirit energy' allows for any of this to happen. They are just attacks.
1. It's possible and makes enough sense, but it never said that.
2. The fact that he's using dynamite isn't what's connected to his spirit. It's the question of how he always has a stick of dynamite in his pocket. He can use this attack infinitely so long as the enemy never dies. HOW? Despite popular opinion, most games (the good games anyway) do have a preceding explanation for how an attack is formed. Either they give a world explanation of how everything is possible or they give individual explanations for each separate attack (i.e. Aya's mitochondrial attacks from Parasite Eve).
Despite popular opinion, battle mechanics do play at least a slight role in the overall story of the game. Just because it does not directly affect the flow of the plot does not mean it is not a part of the story. Never confuse a plot with a story.

bipper
09-02-2005, 06:06 PM
Why can he summon highwind when you battle indoors? It just doesn't make sence, and I really dont think they cared :) The most sence I can make out of it is (if i remember correctly ) The screen goes blackish, and it works like a summon. Prehaps this explains more then. But til that I dunno.

Bipper