Is Final Fantasy Taking Steps Forward or back

[Dreddz]

Its quite clear on the changes that have been present, most noticable with the change from FFIX to FFX
Changes such as the loss of the world map and the new recent change of there being no random battles, but we havent actually played the game so we have to wait for the outcome
Are Square-enix really doing justice for the Final Fantasy Franchise ?

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Yes, they are.

[Gwelenguchenkus]

FFXII looks very good, to me.

[RedCydranth]

No world map in one game doesn't mean its gone for good. (XI doesn't count, and i dunno whats the deal on XII. I dont read into games not out yet so that when I play them I get the full surprise value) Square can only be getting better with improved graphical ability and they've never had a horrible story, even VIII's lack of story was better than other companies games. Stop trying to criticize what you haven't even seen yet, stop saying they're going downhill and all that. If you think they're going down, then bail on them and laeve us to burn with them... geez.

[Dreddz]

hey, its just my opinion
Some like the new FF games..

[Alice]

i myself love how different they r.. i think its obvious that the gameplay has taken advancements by trying to include the player more, instead of using text to choose.. u know?

its open to opinion but i think gameplay and the like have nothing to do with ff, but really the aspect of the fantasy worlds.

[Ste]

So far the ps2 ff games havent lived up to expectation. that said, im really looking forward to playing ffxii, as it actually looks good, first time that ive thought that since ffix, which was my favourite final fantasy.

Not a huge fan of X and the less said about X-2 the better. dont think XI really counts.

the series for me at least peaked with the Playstation games and has gone downhill since then, but rpgs in general have i think. hopefully FFXII will reverse the trend and be a superb game.

[Pure Strife]

Ever since I first played FF each sequel has taken away some things I liked and added some new things I liked. And vice versa, changing something I didn't like and adding in new stuff I didn't like. But through all this, I've yet to play a bad FF. Example: I wasn't too fond od the plot in X-2, but I liked the new gameplay changes and the dress sphere system.

With every FF game they've put out Square have managed to entertain me immensely, and just because they're making changes you don't like doesn't mean that everyone shares your view. So quit whining :p

[DJZen]

FFX was released a LONG time ago. Isn't it a little late to be bringing this up? Why not mention the changes from FFX to FFXI? Matter of fact, to be fair, the ENTIRE series has been constant flux. Shall we revisit it?

I-II: Abandoned the job system for a stat development system where free reign over the development of the characters was given. Emphasis was also placed on the storyline and characters, as the characters were given actual personalities. The concept of rows (front row, back row) was introduced. Chocobos were first introduced here.

II-III: The job system was brought back, only now with the ability to switch jobs at any time, and many new jobs (such as geomancer, summoner, bard and scholar) and abilities were introduced (thieves could now steal, dragon knights could jump, etc.). The emphasis on the battle system was also brought back. Moogles were first introduced here. This was also the first game to include more than one world map. This game also remedied the "ineffective strike" with auto-target.

III-IV: The party was expanded to 5 members, and magic was obtained by levelling up instead of purchasing it. Once again the story took precedence, and the characters were once again actual characters instead of random nameless warriors of light. The ATB system was first used here.

IV-V: The job system made another triumphant return, and the ever popular Blue Mage and Time Mage classes were introduced. Also, the concept of combining jobs was used for the first time.

V-VI: A much more cinematic direction was taken with the series, and the magicite and relic systems were implemented. Also, for the first time could could play as a non-humanoid character. The concept of desperation attacks was introduced, and secret characters were available for the first time.

VI-VII: The style took a drastic change from swords and sorcery to cyberpunk, and the character designer changed from Yo/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gifaka Amano to Tetsuya Nomura. Any semblance of a job system was completely gotten rid of as the materia system came into play. The desperation attack was refined into the limit break. This was the first game to use 3D graphics and FMVs. It was also the first to include actual vocal samples. The party size was changed from 4 to 3.

VII-VIII: The focus was shifted to a "romantic" story. Also, the battle system took a radical change and used the para-magic system and the junction system. The concept of timed strikes was first used in the FF series (it had origins in Mario RPG, but hadn't been used in FF before). This was the first game to include moombas.

VIII-IX: Again, the game changed radically from its predecessor. Inherent jobs were brought back, but abilities were learned through equipment. The party size was changed back to 4, and the swords and sorcery setting was used once again. The limit break system was modified into the trance system.

IX-X: From swords and sorcery to post-apocalyptic fantasy. This game removed the world map, included voiced characters, changed the party size back to three, and went back to the limit break system (renamed overdrive). The job system was changed out for the sphere grid system, which basically allowed characters to learn any ability, although they all started with specific ability sets which mimiced the job system. Weapons and armor also became customizable. The battle system was changed to the CTB system.

X-X2: The battle system was changed to a new version of the ATB system, and the job system returned. Other than that I don't really know anything about the game.

X2-XI: The game was the first FF game to be a MMORPG. The setting changed back to swords and sorcery, and the job system was given a new twist with sub-jobs. Skillchains and magic bursts showed up for the first time. The battle system changed to RTB, and party size was expanded to 6 characters, and alliances were introduced to the series, as well as linkshells. Item crafting and "farming" were introduced. Enemy encounters were changed from random to aggression based.

As you can see, the series has been changing drastically ever since FFII came out. The series doesn't know the meaning of the word "constant". Changes are happening. Changes will always happen. They'll happen whether you like them or not. It is the changes that keep the series vital. Remember the days of Street Fighter II?

[RedCydranth]

Since the "era of PS1" ended, there have only been 2 fullfledged FFgames released. I don't care what antone says about XI, its not a full fledged FF game. Crystal Chronicles is kinda a different series within the FF world, like Mystic Quest was technically FF, just not in the numeric sequeces, thus is excluded often when talking of earlier FFs. X and X-2 are the only 2 games made since this "era" ended. FFX was really a good game, but it was short, and lacked a few things that people often enjoyed in FF games, or added things people for one reason or another didn't like. However, this is the case for ALL post SNES FF games. When FFVII was released all my friends thought Materia was too complicated and that since the characters don't learn spells, just utilize materia, that the game's system was stupid. But they introduced a new "3-D World Map" that people loved. Many people, like myself, claim FFVIII was too GF reliant and hated the draw system and for that its criticized heavily. They introduced more technology to the world and was met with mixed reviews. Because many of the people both here (U.S and Europe) and in Japan claimed that the series was headed in a too futuristic direction, they chose to make IX more like a mix of FFIV and VII, Set up characters to not be "all powerful" like you could with VII and VIII, instead make them powerful in thier own individual way. For all intents and purposes, Garnet was basically a Rydia clone who could use white magic (Rydia was more powerful though IMO). But they kept the 3-D graphics of the playstation. They tried to make the game more medieval like the older ones as well. They introduced the crystal abilities as a new way to learn skills. Instead of learning through leveling up, you learned through equippable items. But, people still complained saying that they took a step back too far. Fans of VII and VIII were used to the power characters and disliked the limitations placed in IX. Fans of the technologies introduced in VII and VIII disliked the medieval feeling to IX. No matter what they did, they recieved scrutiny for their work. When X came out, people complained about not liking the voice acting and that the removal of the world map "ruined" the game. the fans of VII and VIII were thrilled to see that once again power characters were allowed. But still many say the sphere grid was a bad idea. People LOVED FFX when i first came out. I didn't hear a bad word spoken until a few months after its release. This is when those who loved it wanted more of it because the game was too short, i agree the game was shorter than I had liked, but it was still great. So, Square listened to the publics cry for more FFX, but seeing as how the story ended with Tidus and Auron non existant, what was left to continue with? The only character that had any potential as a hero was Yuna. Wakka and Lulu, you could tell from their dialogues througout X that they were gonna hook up. Kimahri had potential, but he was too silent and too much of a background character to set the sequel to. Rikku had potential and they figured she's make a great sidekick to Yuna, seeing as they are cousins. So with what was left, an already explored world, a recycled cast of characters, they set off to make their fist sequel. They failed, but they tried. And ever since, people like you have been saying "Final Fantasy is on the way down" because of ONE overall failure?? Final Fantasy X wasn't a failure, it was just different. X-2 was a failure, unfortunately.

DEIT: I actually typed this like 6 hours ago, but my internet connection died somewhere from the time I started typing and ended. Thus couldn't post it, and I then went to my friends house and returned to have my connection restored (for some reason my wireless router is messing up) and thus I posted it. DJZen said basically what I was trying to convey and he did it much better, GJ DJZ.

[DJZen]

I don't care what antone says about XI, its not a full fledged FF game.

Why? Did square change things too much for your liking? ;P

I'd say it's probably more of a FF game than FFVII or FFVIII.

[RedCydranth]

Because throughout the entire series of FF, the one constant they've maintained (until XI) was that the game could be beaten. I don't feel that online RPGs are in the same genre as Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior/Quest, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger etc. I like knowing that when I sit down and play an RPG at home that with enough determination and perseverance I can get through the game and beat it. With XI all the determination, Patience and perseverance won't give me that, just a character thats really good. Whoopee, I'm left unsatisfied.

Now, i realize PSO made a lot of money and EverQuest had been the top MMORPG for a long time (i dunno what is top now). So i do not blame FF for making a game to please the MMORPG players, but they put it in the numeric series. If it was named Final Fantasy Online, or something along those lines and left XI to be a console game that could be beaten, It would have made more sense.

I know theres nothing I can do to change it, and I guess saying its not an FF is wrong of me. Okay, its an FF, but i don't consider it as part of the FF series. I toss it in the bin with Crystal Chronicles, Mystic Quest and Tactics. They're still FF, but they aren't in the FF series, just in their realm.

[squareSOFT]

I don't care what antone says about XI, its not a full fledged FF game.

Why? Did square change things too much for your liking? ;P

I'd say it's probably more of a FF game than FFVII or FFVIII.

How do you figure THAT?! IMO XI is not a true ff game because it is missing some of the emotion all the other ff's have. It doesn't have an incredible story, it doesn't have memorable characters, it doesn't have any kick-ass cg's and it doesn't have any of the dramatic moments. Because most MMORPG's can't have that I believe SE should stick to what made them good in the first place, making traditional RPG's with all of the aformentioned qualities.

[RedCydranth]

I'm relieved that I'm not alone in my dislike for FFXI. Those are more valid points, thank you.

[DJZen]

How do you figure THAT?! IMO XI is not a true ff game because it is missing some of the emotion all the other ff's have. It doesn't have an incredible story, it doesn't have memorable characters, it doesn't have any kick-ass cg's and it doesn't have any of the dramatic moments. Because most MMORPG's can't have that I believe SE should stick to what made them good in the first place, making traditional RPG's with all of the aformentioned qualities.

Oh it's quite simple.

The story's actually pretty interesting. The way things play out between the 3 nations suprised me a lot. The fact that it had a storyline that progresses as you play the game suprised me at first, but it's also one good enough to get wrapped up in.

Memorable characters? You mean like FFVIII's entire cast of undeveloped characters? How about The characters from FFVI who got about 2 seconds worth of storyline? How about FFI where your characters don't even SPEAK? How is not having memorable characters un-FF? The characters are all other players anyway, which to me makes them more memorable.

No kick ass CGs? What? Not even considering the fact that you've just discounted the entire first half of the series by saying that, you're completely wrong.

http://images.derstandard.at/20040809/ffa.jpg

http://www.lazion.com/image/dykvg/ff11.jpg

The CG is VERY kick ass.

No dramatic moments? Try fighting three ITs and suddenly having your tank disconnect. If that's not dramatic enough, try the walk to Jeuno through tiger filled lands at level 20. How about realizing your puller just aggroed every last goblin in the area? Trust me, drama abounds in this game.

It's a VERY traditional RPG. Perhaps a little too traditional for most. It's more like playing a game than watching a movie. You need to coordinate and strategize with your party. There's plenty of dungeon crawling and loot farming to be had as well. You play the game exactly as you want to play it. It's far closer to a tabletop RPG than the series has ever come.

It's VERY much a Final Fantasy game because it has the elements that have traditionally made a final fantasy game. You want the FF jobs? You got 'em! How about the magic system? Done! Summons? Oh yeah, we got summons. Crazy boss fights? How do bosses that require alliances between parties sound? Bizarre metaphysical nonsense? Oh yeah, still tons of that. Chocobos? We got more chocobos than you can shake a stick at! Airships? Definitely. Moogles? KUPO!

It's Final Fantasy to the core. It just happens to have a chat room built into it now.

[RedCydranth]

Okay, It is Final Fantasy, But I still feel that it shouldn't be in the numeric series. The CG thing is neither here nor there, it doesn't make FF an FF game. Xenosaga had more CG that all FFs combined, so theres proof CG does not = FF.

FFXI sounds fun, but it can not be beaten. It doesn't have built in drama, you have to basically create it. As for under developed characters, I agree with squareSOFT on this. There aren't any highly developed characters in FFXI. I can't say to you, "When Garamonde killed the cerberus, it totally took me by surprise!" because you don't know who Garamonde is, unless you play in the server i do, and know who that player is. So, sure you can remember a lot of other human players, but that doesn't mean the game has memorable characters for everyone. Also, FFI was a last ditch effort to save the company and at the time RPGs were virtually non-existant. You can't seriously balme them for having under develpped characyers on the NES. For god's sake, even the most famous of NES characters had no development, Mario, Samus, Simon Belmont.... At that time, character development didn't mean as much as gameplay. Now in this era we need dramatic storylines and character development. As for VIII, Sutre they didn't have in depth storyline, but when i say Irvine, you all know who I mean. When i say Garamonde, you haven't the slightest idea who the hell that is. (acctually its Cyan's last name, but you get what I mean.)

[squareSOFT]

The story's actually pretty interesting. The way things play out between the 3 nations suprised me a lot. The fact that it had a storyline that progresses as you play the game suprised me at first, but it's also one good enough to get wrapped up in.

Oh come on. Yes, it has some mumbo-jumbo about the three nations and the beastmen and such but really, you can go play the game for hours and hours without encountering a sniff of story. And even if you would encounter some story it's hardly deep and compelling like any of 6-10's.



Memorable characters? You mean like FFVIII's entire cast of undeveloped characters? How about The characters from FFVI who got about 2 seconds worth of storyline? How about FFI where your characters don't even SPEAK? How is not having memorable characters un-FF? The characters are all other players anyway, which to me makes them more memorable.

If you believe ffviii characters are underdeveloped then fine. But even if they were, it's still better than having a character who has no personality or thoughts of his own. And I would say that ff vi's chars got a bit more than 2 secs. worth of lines. I think there are many who would agree that vi's chars were well developed and life like. And picking on FFI?! Come on thats a whole nother era. And unless you have any others up your sleeve I counted 3 ff's you jsut critized. Considering how many there are I would say that memorable characters would be ff-ish even if all you said was correct.


No kick ass CGs? What? Not even considering the fact that you've just discounted the entire first half of the series by saying that, you're completely wrong.

http://images.derstandard.at/20040809/ffa.jpg

http://www.lazion.com/image/dykvg/ff11.jpg

The CG is VERY kick ass.

Yes, I missed that one. But that is only in the beginning of the game and unless I'm missing some there aren't any scattered throughout the game, like all ff's 7 and up.


No dramatic moments? Try fighting three ITs and suddenly having your tank disconnect. If that's not dramatic enough, try the walk to Jeuno through tiger filled lands at level 20. How about realizing your puller just aggroed every last goblin in the area? Trust me, drama abounds in this game.

There is a difference between drama and thrills. Drama is more the beautiful emotional moments, with the sad music and brilliantly written lines. What you are referring to can be exciting, but the problem is that's all XI has. It doesn't seem to do what most other ff's are capable of. That is taking you out of your present situation and put you into a world of magic and mystery. A world where the pain of your main character is also tranfered to you. You cry when he cries, you rejoice when he is happy and you are sad when he is. XI just didn't do that for me. Because, while it was exciting at times it lacked that kind of emotion that sets ff apart from your basic games. The stroy, chars and music just werent good enough to do it and THAT is my biggest problem.


It's a VERY traditional RPG. Perhaps a little too traditional for most. It's more like playing a game than watching a movie. You need to coordinate and strategize with your party. There's plenty of dungeon crawling and loot farming to be had as well. You play the game exactly as you want to play it. It's far closer to a tabletop RPG than the series has ever come.

You play the game as you want to play it because SE has done very little to define it. You can define the game yourself and I see that as a problem and not a good thing. It's an expanded version of "choose your own adventure" really. Sure, it has good gameplay but that doesn't make up for the ridicoulous non-linearism this game has. Not that can be solved with an MMORPG which is why SE should look elsewhere.


It's VERY much a Final Fantasy game because it has the elements that have traditionally made a final fantasy game. You want the FF jobs? You got 'em! How about the magic system? Done! Summons? Oh yeah, we got summons. Crazy boss fights? How do bosses that require alliances between parties sound? Bizarre metaphysical nonsense? Oh yeah, still tons of that. Chocobos? We got more chocobos than you can shake a stick at! Airships? Definitely. Moogles? KUPO!

It's Final Fantasy to the core. It just happens to have a chat room built into it now.

Yes, and I really do love those elements. But the biggest most underrated part of an ff is missing and that is the earlier mentioned emotion. It's not like the excitement you get from a well planned kill. Any number of games allow that these days. But what is missing is the rarity of beautiful character interaction and a well planned game in general. Mabe XI does have a decent story, characters, gameplay and the like. But always in the past square have created games that were brilliant standouts. But as for XI I would just as soon play Everquest, Guild Wars, WOW or any other MMORPG. Because ff no longer stands out and I think it's a real shame. Please respond when you receive this.

[rubah]

Great strides forwards, I'd think ^_^

[DJZen]

Bah. Phillistines. All of you.

EDIT: And no, I wasn't attacking FFVIII, VI or I. I was pointing out that in the lifespan of the series, the role of personality has had different importance. I could also have brought up FFIII's nameless main characters or FFII's lack of depth. I could have brought up how one dimensional Squall, Tifa, Barret, Cait Sith, Vincent, Palom, Porom, Rosa, Rydia, Edward, and countless others are, but I don't think it's necessary.

FFVIII strayed heavily from the formula. It changed the gameplay, it changed the setting, it changed the focus of the story. The only things it really had in common with the series is some spell and item names. Yet for some reason, FFVII and VIII are somehow considered the height of the series, when it was LEAST like itself. Before anyone jumps up and says "that's 'cause it's the best when it's like that" I'll strike ya down with some good ole' "no, it just tells me that games sell better when they're heavily marketted to mainstream crowds who like girly emo heroes and eye candy". OH YES I DID! :O

[ughhis]

Yes, they are.

[ChaosCalibur]

The recent games have a traditional(old) feel to them, you may feel that it's taking a step backwards or forward but i like it either way...

[ThroneofDravaris]

And no, I wasn't attacking FFVIII


You mean like FFVIII's entire cast of undeveloped characters?



"no, it just tells me that games sell better when they're heavily marketted to mainstream crowds who like girly emo heroes and eye candy". OH YES I DID! :O

Hmm…

Anyway, I actually agree with DjZen in that FFXI is no LESS a FF game than any of the others. Rather than having a complex, epic story line, the focus has been put on gameplay, which is to be expected with an online game. However, I don’t agree when you say that it was more of an FF game than FF7 or FF8 (I think you were joking, but I’ll construct this post as if you weren’t). FFVII and FFVIII were general progressions of an idea that was originally put forward in FFVI. From what I know of the game (I’m don’t trust the internet/credit card combination, so I haven’t played it), FFXI was very different from FFX, you can’t really find much in the way of obvious common ground between the two, yet it was very close to the ideas proposed in earlier FF games. To contrast, FF8 only seems different when you compare it to the earlier FF games, not the ones directly before it. I don’t really see how you can say FF8 is any more or less an FF game than FFXI.

[SeeDRankLou]

X-2 was a failure, unfortunately.
Selling almost two million copies in one day does not a failure make. If the game was a failure then it would have gotten horrible hype from the Japanese community and not sold 1.5 million in the US, and however much it has sold in Europe. Have all the opinions you want, but the numbers don't lie.

[KoShiatar]

It's evolution, baby! (as Eddie Vedder once said)

[squareSOFT]

Selling almost two million copies in one day does not a failure make. If the game was a failure then it would have gotten horrible hype from the Japanese community and not sold 1.5 million in the US, and however much it has sold in Europe. Have all the opinions you want, but the numbers don't lie.

Mabe it wasn't a complete failure, but compared to any other ff it has very little hope in stacking up. And numbers can lie to a certain extent. I'm sure quite a few people bought it because they assumed it would be good cause of the final fantasy on it.

[SeeDRankLou]

I'm sure quite a few people bought it because they assumed it would be good cause of the final fantasy on it.
Well that can be said for every Final Fantasy.

[Mo-Nercy]

If you'd all think back to the old days, you'll recall that people were skeptical about Final Fantasy VII being a complete failure. The concept of 3D environments was uncharacteristic of the conventional RPG. Surely, this game would ruin the series...You all know how that turned out.

Final Fantasy X's announced voice overs once again made a splash in the FF community. As far as I can tell, this hasn't hurt Final Fantasy as a whole either.

Final Fantasy XI is online. It generates more money than any other Square project. Definitely not a step back.

No Final Fantasy has taken a step back, so to speak, but the series has definitely been changing to appeal to the new generation of gamers. Period.