You're Wrong!

[ThroneofDravaris]

Obviously, everyone has a reason why they dislike a certain FF game. Some of these opinions represent valid flaws within the game, others are stupid opinions by equally stupid people who have no clue what they are talking about (you know who you are…). So I thought it would be fun if I made a thread in which people simply post why they think an FF game was crap (or a specific section of a FF game that was poorly done), and everyone else replies with a reason as to why they are wrong. Be as ruthless as you feel is necessary as you tear apart their arguments. There is only one rule: The first time you reply, you must also share your own opinion on a section of an FF game you felt was sub-par. That way, no one will be safe.

*manic laughter*

When posting, state your reply to a person’s opinion first (only if you feel the need, you don’t have to reply to anyone if you feel they are correct/ everything has been said and done on that subject), followed by your own opinion on a crappy aspect of an FF game ( once again, you only need to state an opinion the first time you post). Be sure to start by labeling the FF game, so that people immediately know which game your talking about.

I’ll start by posting my opinion on the shortcomings of FF6.

FF6: Let me start by saying that I enjoyed this game a lot; each of the characters were unique, with there own individual battle commands. Unlike it predecessor, FF5, FF6 had an interesting plot line and an even better villain. However, when people state that FF6 had the best story line in the series, I am let rather puzzled as to how they were able to come up with this opinion. While good for its age, I feel that there were aspects to the plot that came up short, and were vastly improved upon in later FF games. I feel that too much emphasis was put on the humorous side of the story in this game, and mature themes that could have been elaborated on (Celes’ attempted suicide comes to mind) were left undeveloped, partly due to Nintendo’s ruthless censorship. In addition, while not including a clear protagonist was an interesting idea, I feel this caused the game to loose direction towards the end. This became especially evident halfway through the game, when you could continue the story without the PC’s that, up until this point in the game, were the closest thing the game had to ‘main characters’. Rewarding mini-games were almost non-existent in this game, which would later become an important aspect of an FF game. Almost as importantly, the optional ‘Uber’ bosses that appeared in FFV were no where to be found in this game, why they abandoned the idea for FF6 is beyond me.

Well, that’s my opinion; feel free to tear it apart. Let the fun begin!

[Primus Inter Pares]

Hehe, soooooo true!

*Puts on flame retardant suit and rallies behind ToD*

Final Fantasy 10:
Now before we start getting exited, I loved this game :) it's just that it could have been so much better and it does not rate in my top 5 FF games. The voice acting was terrible and the plot was very lacking, the characters were monotonous and frankly quite boring, with the little development occuring throughout the game. The normal plot line was without any real challenges (that is to say a blind two year old donkey could have completed it). Don't get me started on blitzball, good in theory just didn't work all that successfully in the game. Anything I missed? Of course there is I just don't want to turn this into a "I hate FF X" post so I'll leave it at that.

[Faith]

Final Fantasy 10:
Now before we start getting exited, I loved this game :) it's just that it could have been so much better and it does not rate in my top 5 FF games. The voice acting was terrible and the plot was very lacking, the characters were monotonous and frankly quite boring, with the little development occuring throughout the game. The normal plot line was without any real challenges (that is to say a blind two year old donkey could have completed it). Don't get me started on blitzball, good in theory just didn't work all that successfully in the game. Anything I missed? Of course there is I just don't want to turn this into a "I hate FF X" post so I'll leave it at that.

Well, I am a 3 year old Donkey so I wouldn't know. I do agree with you on the voice overs, they were VERY bad. Not so much the voice actors, but the way the dialogue was supposed to match the mouth movements. I did like the plot very much though :D

FF VIII::screwy:
Oh dear God. I would have rather sat in a sauna with 10 hairy, fat gay men then to have played this game. The characters seemed to be very emotional ALL of the time, and I had a very hard time keeping a general interest in the game. The plot was all over the place and had one of the worst endings to any game I have ever played. It was almost as bad as a high summoner becoming 'pop diva'.

[ThroneofDravaris]

Final Fantasy 10:
Now before we start getting exited, I loved this game it's just that it could have been so much better and it does not rate in my top 5 FF games. The voice acting was terrible and the plot was very lacking, the characters were monotonous and frankly quite boring, with the little development occuring throughout the game. The normal plot line was without any real challenges (that is to say a blind two year old donkey could have completed it). Don't get me started on blitzball, good in theory just didn't work all that successfully in the game. Anything I missed? Of course there is I just don't want to turn this into a "I hate FF X" post so I'll leave it at that.

Hmm, not all of the voice acting was bad in this game, I think it was really just Yuna. Auron was great, so was Seymour and Rikku. Some of the dialogue was pretty bad though, I think that you may be confusing the two. FFX was probably the first FF game where ALL of the characters were developed to some extent. Some characters, like Wakka, changed quite dramatically throughout the game. I would consider that the plot line was every bit as complex as previous FF games (the whole “Dream of the Fayth” thing confused the hell out of me the first time, almost as much as “Time Compression”). FFX was the first FF game that you couldn’t win purely with the attack command, due to the introduction of physical resistant fiends. I can also think of a few very challenging battle in this game, including Evrae and Seymour Flux. Overall, I would consider FFX one of the harder of the newer FF games. I agree with you with Blitzball though, one of the most boring mini-games ever!


FF VIII:
Oh dear God. I would have rather sat in a sauna with 10 hairy, fat gay men then to have played this game. The characters seemed to be very emotional ALL of the time, and I had a very hard time keeping a general interest in the game. The plot was all over the place and had one of the worst endings to any game I have ever played. It was almost as bad as a high summoner becoming 'pop diva'.

EDIT: Damn roman numerals! Sorry, I read it as FF7, but readiong it as FF8 just confuses me more. Squall was VERY emotionally inept for the most part of the game, and he doesn’t get much better towards the end. Once again, I would consider most of the characters outspoken rather than emotional, especially Zell and Selphie. As for the plot, while the focus changed constantly, it still continued in a rather linear fashion. I actually liked the added freedom on the world map. I have no idea what you are talking about with the ending. The ending in FF8, while confusing as all hell, is probably one of the most visually astounding endings in the entire series. Everything was resolved properly, what didn’t you like about it?

[thinking of names is hard]

FF VIII:
Oh dear God. I would have rather sat in a sauna with 10 hairy, fat gay men then to have played this game. The characters seemed to be very emotional ALL of the time, and I had a very hard time keeping a general interest in the game. The plot was all over the place and had one of the worst endings to any game I have ever played. It was almost as bad as a high summoner becoming 'pop diva'.

Actually, Cloud started the game about as emotionally inept as Squall. It wasn’t until the death of Aeris that he started to become more emotional. In general, I would say most of the characters were outspoken rather than emotional. There were quite a few plot twists in this game to keep people interested, not sure what you found so boring about it. As for the ending, I liked the way it sort of kept things up in the air. Obviously, due to the existence of Advent Children, we know everyone survived, but still.

I think Faith was referring to 8 and not 7?

As for the big argument that the voice acting was terrible in 10... what can i say... i found it surprising. I thought they were brilliant. Some of the dialogue was a bit crap but i never notived it while playing the game. You probably noticed it more because of the voice overs-and it wasnt just writing strolloing across the screen.
I thought the storyline was good too. If you was playing games in the genre of shooting (time splitters) would you question the storyline of that? Just because it didnt have a good storyline (or none at all) doesnt mean it was a bad game.
I know its final fantasy, and storylines are a big part of it, but i think that there is nothing to complain about.

So anyway... I like all the games but i thought that the characers in ffix was lacking in some parts. I didnt really gat into the game like other final fantasies. Normally, characters have features that i associate with them. But in ffix, i seriously cannot describe any of their characteristics. They seemed bland to me....All i remmember is that Eiko was a brat and Quina liked food...and...erm...thats it.Gameplay was great-storyline was too, but the characters...


Oh dear God. I would have rather sat in a sauna with 10 hairy, fat gay men
Me too....but i loved the game.

[ThroneofDravaris]

I think Faith was referring to 8 and not 7?

Hehe, fixed it.


So anyway... I like all the games but i thought that the characers in ffix was lacking in some parts. I didnt really gat into the game like other final fantasies. Normally, characters have features that i associate with them. But in ffix, i seriously cannot describe any of their characteristics. They seemed bland to me....All i remmember is that Eiko was a brat and Quina liked food...and...erm...thats it.Gameplay was great-storyline was too, but the characters...


Hehe, I’m kind of surprised that you can find features of characters in ANY FF game that can be related to oneself. I think in FF9, they tried to make the characters as stereotypical as possible, as to be reminiscent of the classical FF games. Steiner is a dedicated knight, Garnet is a selfless Princess with an high-class education, Quina is…well…Quina. While Zidane proved to be very happy-go-lucky, he seriously begins to question who he is later in the game, which adds a certain degree of depth to the characters. Vivi is probably one of the most complex and tragic characters in the series (well, depending on whether you believe he dies in the end). But most importantly, FF9’s antagonist, Kuja, was one of the best developed characters out there. You both hate him and pity him at the same time. While the game had some 2D characters like Amarant and Quina ( but then, did Quina really need development?), I think these characters are outweighed by the more complex ones.

[Alexander]

Quina do not need development to be the best FF character ever. :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

And my complains about FFVIII.

The storyline. Full of plotholes, sometimes even seriously lacking (why does Ultimecia want to compress time, after all? x.x), and sometimes forced. Like... the Trabia Garden event. And th whole Squall/Rinoa thing. From nothing Squall loved Rinoa. This is sick.
The battles. Junction was bizzarre. Easy to catch, but bizzarre. No MP or equipment is very strange, as well.

How the hell do you junction magic to your, let's say, vitality? How can a "stock" of Blizzagas make you more resistant to physical attacks?And how do you junction a guardian force to yourself? (Okay, ability system is a little strange as well, but it makes a little sense)

And stocking/drawing. Magic is an essence, an energy. Magic is not a material thing. FFVIII made magic seem material. Like...

Son: Daddy, daddy! Did you see that? Now Bite Bug has Firaga! I want some! Please please please!
Daddy: Okay. *junctioning GF... somehow*
Son: YAY! ^_^

And the junction system, and the GF commands made the use of magic in battle very useless. The only ones I use is Regen and Aura. Not even Meltdown, because you can have Doomtrain.

And about the characters. They focused WAY TOO MUCH in Squall, Rinoa, Edea and Laguna. The others are sitting in the dark, watching. Much like Digimon Frontier, in the end. And Digimon Frontier stinks. So this is not a good analogy. >_<

[DJZen]

No, you're ALL wrong. Top THAT!

P.S.


I would have rather sat in a sauna with 10 hairy, fat gay men

Really? Because that can be arranged.

[Captain Maxx Power]

I like FF2. It's the best FF ever. Am I still in the wrong catagory?

[ThroneofDravaris]

No, you're ALL wrong. Top THAT!


I like FF2. It's the best FF ever. Am I still in the wrong catagory?

You…didn’t read my post…did you?


The storyline. Full of plotholes, sometimes even seriously lacking (why does Ultimecia want to compress time, after all? x.x), and sometimes forced. Like... the Trabia Garden event. And th whole Squall/Rinoa thing. From nothing Squall loved Rinoa. This is sick.

I really didn’t find any more plot holes in FF8’s story than in any other FF game. I think the big thing though is that no one (including myself) really understands Time compression. Ultimecia wanted to achieve it because apparently, she would be the only one that existed after it’s completion. I would say this means that she would become “everything” (and succeeded) , but then that’s just my theory. Squall didn’t love Rinoa for nothing, if it was in fact love that he felt for her. There was no less reason for Squall to love Rinoa than for say, Zidane to love Garnet. It’s just one of those things that can’t really be explained. If your question is ‘why would anyone love someone like Rinoa?”, then I guess that’s just a matter of taste really. I liked her personality, and apparently, so did Squall. If it’s the odd transition between Squall’s indifference and love for Rinoa, then it’s really best explained as one of those “Don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone” situations.


The battles. Junction was bizzarre. Easy to catch, but bizzarre. No MP or equipment is very strange, as well. How the hell do you junction magic to your, let's say, vitality? How can a "stock" of Blizzagas make you more resistant to physical attacks?And how do you junction a guardian force to yourself? (Okay, ability system is a little strange as well, but it makes a little sense)

FF8 had an entirely different theory on the nature of magic compared to the other FF games. Since magic doesn’t really exist (well, some may think so, but let’s just work on logic for now), it’s really hard to say that it couldn’t be stocked and exhausted in manner it is in FF8. It makes just as much sense as drawing magic from ones own body (ie, MP). The idea behind the Junctioning system makes perfect sense ( one again, I mean it’s just as logical as anything else magical). Basically, Magic is used to enhance either your mental condition (in the case of magic based stats) and physical attributes ( strength, HP, vitality etc.). Not sure what the problem is wioth this theory really…

GF’s function like a symbiotic organism that uses the person that junctions it as a “host”. This theory is used quite a lot in Sci-fi shows/games, and the idea employed in FF8 is based on the Espers in FF6. Once again, I’m not sure what you don’t get about this.


And stocking/drawing. Magic is an essence, an energy. Magic is not a material thing. FFVIII made magic seem material. Like...

Err… ok. Let’s not try to define something that doesn’t exist in the real world. Magic could just as easily be separated into different types as opposed to being seen as “pure energy that is manipulated by the caster”. You can’t really say one way or another…


And the junction system, and the GF commands made the use of magic in battle very useless. The only ones I use is Regen and Aura. Not even Meltdown, because you can have Doomtrain.

Just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean it’s not useful. The idea was to use magic to enhance your limit break power, not to be used in its pure form. At least magic till plays a part in this game all the way through, unlike games such as FFX, where max strength and auto-abilities made magic truly useless. As you said, you still used a little magic towards the end of the game, this is the same for most FF games; most magic becomes redundant by the introduction of more powerful spells. And it’s a lot easier to simply use a meltdown than it is to summon Doomtrain…


And about the characters. They focused WAY TOO MUCH in Squall, Rinoa, Edea and Laguna. The others are sitting in the dark, watching. Much like Digimon Frontier, in the end. And Digimon Frontier stinks. So this is not a good analogy.

Hmmm, not sure what’s so surprising about this. Pretty much all FF games (save FFX) tend to ditch the development of the supporting characters in favour of the protagonists. Not sure what Edea is doing in that list though, she wasn’t really that important after the second disk…

As far as minor characters go, the characters in FF8 (due to there only being 6 PC’s, one of my only complaints with the game) actually got more screen time on average than other characters in the series. I could give you a whole list of characters no-one knows anything about…

[Alexander]

I really didn’t find any more plot holes in FF8’s story than in any other FF game. I think the big thing though is that no one (including myself) really understands Time compression. Ultimecia wanted to achieve it because apparently, she would be the only one that existed after it’s completion. I would say this means that she would become “everything” (and succeeded) , but then that’s just my theory. Squall didn’t love Rinoa for nothing, if it was in fact love that he felt for her. There was no less reason for Squall to love Rinoa than for say, Zidane to love Garnet. It’s just one of those things that can’t really be explained. If your question is ‘why would anyone love someone like Rinoa?”, then I guess that’s just a matter of taste really. I liked her personality, and apparently, so did Squall. If it’s the odd transition between Squall’s indifference and love for Rinoa, then it’s really best explained as one of those “Don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone” situations.

Why the hell would she want to compress time? She could destroy herself doing that you know. That's the thing. And Ultimecia has No background. We have theories. ONLY THEORIES. She is one big plothole.
And most FFs don't have so many plotholes like FFVIII.
And Squall starts to love Rinoa with no true reason. And this isn't truly explained in the game. Zidane and Garnet love each other since the beginning, and it is pretty clear to understand. Even if you don't Eiko makes a good explanation of that to Vivi.


FF8 had an entirely different theory on the nature of magic compared to the other FF games. Since magic doesn’t really exist (well, some may think so, but let’s just work on logic for now), it’s really hard to say that it couldn’t be stocked and exhausted in manner it is in FF8. It makes just as much sense as drawing magic from ones own body (ie, MP). The idea behind the Junctioning system makes perfect sense ( one again, I mean it’s just as logical as anything else magical). Basically, Magic is used to enhance either your mental condition (in the case of magic based stats) and physical attributes ( strength, HP, vitality etc.). Not sure what the problem is wioth this theory really…

GF’s function like a symbiotic organism that uses the person that junctions it as a “host”. This theory is used quite a lot in Sci-fi shows/games, and the idea employed in FF8 is based on the Espers in FF6. Once again, I’m not sure what you don’t get about this.

The problem, again, is the material thing. Magic is an energy. It may not exist in the real world, but in games, it is raw spirit energy. A power that can make miracles. FFVIII ruined that. If it was by scrolls and books, like it was (implicit) in the old-school FFs. They used their power to use the magic contained in those scrolls. But FFVIII doesn't give any deep explanation about magic.

And Espers are explained in FFVI. Magicite, remeber? They learn Magic and summon Espers using Magicite. The power contained in the Magicite. Espers make sense. Since Guardian Forces don't have a good explanation of what they are, they don't make much of a sense.


Err… ok. Let’s not try to define something that doesn’t exist in the real world. Magic could just as easily be separated into different types as opposed to being seen as “pure energy that is manipulated by the caster”. You can’t really say one way or another…
I at least can't see magic by a material thing you can refine from items. That is just idiot and bizzarre. o_o


Just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean it’s not useful. The idea was to use magic to enhance your limit break power, not to be used in its pure form. At least magic till plays a part in this game all the way through, unlike games such as FFX, where max strength and auto-abilities made magic truly useless. As you said, you still used a little magic towards the end of the game, this is the same for most FF games; most magic becomes redundant by the introduction of more powerful spells. And it’s a lot easier to simply use a meltdown than it is to summon Doomtrain…
Magic, used in battle, is useless. I haven't talked ANYTHING about its another usefulnesses. As you said, magic enhance your stats and limit breaks. This ruined FFVIII to me. Limit Breaks are too overpowered, and they don't make sense as well (Hey! I'm almost dead! But because of some idiot reason I can do 9999 damage 16 times against an enemy now! Hoo-ray!).
And in FFVIII, magic is obsolete in battle since the beginning. There's not much of a point on using Fire on an enemy when you could just equip it to your physical attack and atttack with Fire not using a single magic from the stock.
And Meltdown causes some non-elemental damage and Vit 0. Doomtrain causes good Poison Damage, and an load of status ailments. So, it is much better to use Doomtrain. Plus, you don't need to restock Doomtrain after some uses. And using Doomtrain do not affect your stats, if Meltdown is junctioned.


Hmmm, not sure what’s so surprising about this. Pretty much all FF games (save FFX) tend to ditch the development of the supporting characters in favour of the protagonists. Not sure what Edea is doing in that list though, she wasn’t really that important after the second disk…

As far as minor characters go, the characters in FF8 (due to there only being 6 PC’s, one of my only complaints with the game) actually got more screen time on average than other characters in the series. I could give you a whole list of characters no-one knows anything about…

Save FFX? Wtf are you talking about? They sometimes even ditch Tidus, in favor of Yuna!
And Edea was very important in the two first discs. They ditched Seifer (not like someone would miss him *shot*) in favor of her, when he is just as bad good as Edea.

And Quistis, Zell, Irvine and Selphie only had more "screen time" than other characters in other FFs because there are only 6 PCs, as you said. But FFIX has 8 PCs and Eiko, Vivi, Steiner and maybe Quina have much, much more screen time than anyone from FFVIII. And that's because some people say that FFIX is shorter!
And this "whole list" would have too many people from FFVI, if you're talking about PCs.

[Lilian]

I don't really see how the battle system of FF8 makes any more or less sense than that of the other FFs. True, it doesn't make any sense to be near-dead and suddenly able to unleash a super-powerful attack, but it doesn't make any sense to be hit 2347293472983 times by the enemy and suddenly unable to unleash a super-powerful attack, either. And I can understand how the typical MP magic system works--MP is your source of magical energy, or something along those lines, and it drains as you perform more spells--but then how is it that you're totally drained and all you have to do is toss an Ether in the air and you're replenished? Not to mention that in battle, characters get hit a million times and don't fall--and when they do, you can just use a Phoenix Down and revive them. But in the story line, all it takes is one good hit from a sword and they're dead for good. None of the battle systems make any sense, when you think about it.

Anyway...I'm supposed to post about some aspect of FF I think is crappy, aren't I? Okay, let's see...

FFX: IMO, it just didn't live up to the legacy of the other games at all. There's plenty of reasons it's my least favorite in the series, some of which have already been mentioned (although I don't think the voice acting was all that bad, aside from Tidus and Yuna). The story's not bad; I could have gotten into it, except for my constant desire to strangle the two main characters (Tidus and Yuna). But the thing that really irritates me is the gameplay. Who came UP with these minigames, anyway? Not just blitzball, but dodging lightning strikes, the butterfly game, and the hideously frustrating chocobo racing...and if you want to get the ultimate weapons, you HAVE to play them. I don't care if it'll make Tidus cause more than 9999 damage, it's just not worth it to sit there and play a minigame that makes me want to throw my controller against the wall in frustration.

I could go on, but I'll stop for now. Hopefully all that made sense. I'm sleep deprived. o_o

So, there's my complaint. Have at it, guys. :D

[ThroneofDravaris]

Why the hell would she want to compress time? She could destroy herself doing that you know. That's the thing. And Ultimecia has No background. We have theories. ONLY THEORIES. She is one big plothole.
And most FFs don't have so many plotholes like FFVIII.
And Squall starts to love Rinoa with no true reason. And this isn't truly explained in the game. Zidane and Garnet love each other since the beginning, and it is pretty clear to understand. Even if you don't Eiko makes a good explanation of that to Vivi.

Hehe, I think we should assume that Ultimecia knew that she wasn’t going to be consumed as well during Time Compression. As I said, my theory is that Time Compression would make Ultimecia everything, everywhere, at every time. Basically, she would have become the Universe…if that makes sense…meh, it makes sense to me (must have made sense to Primus Inter Pares as well, since it’s a derivative of one of his theories…). Ultimecia is not the only FF antagonist we know nothing about. Chaos, Zeomus, X-Death, Necron; nothing much is known about any of these guys. The thing is, all of these games had supplementary antagonists that were developed to a greater extent. For FF8, it was Seifer, more on that later. Really, if you don’t count Time Compression, there aren’t many plot holes in this game, and those that exist are rather easy to fill in (ie, Squall’s father being Laguna). As for love in this game, I think you will have a hard time proving that there was any more reason for Zidane to love garnet than for Squall to love Rinoa. It was hinted at THE ENTIRE way through the game, it was fairly obvious that this was the direction the story was going to take. The only complication was Quistis who loved Squall as well, yet decided tha tit wasn’t truly love later in the game (yes, a bit weak, but what do you want?).


The problem, again, is the material thing. Magic is an energy. It may not exist in the real world, but in games, it is raw spirit energy. A power that can make miracles. FFVIII ruined that. If it was by scrolls and books, like it was (implicit) in the old-school FFs. They used their power to use the magic contained in those scrolls. But FFVIII doesn't give any deep explanation about magic.

Once again, Magic is still an energy in FF8, it’s just been put into different categories. I really don’t see who magic was explained any less clearly in FF8, where in past FF games it was something you could simply BUY FROM SHOPS! And FFIX didn’t exactly have a clear explanation of magic either, it was something you learned from…a stick. Hmmm…So far the best explanation of magic has been in FF6, and that was merely “we get it from magical creatures.”


And Espers are explained in FFVI. Magicite, remeber? They learn Magic and summon Espers using Magicite. The power contained in the Magicite. Espers make sense. Since Guardian Forces don't have a good explanation of what they are, they don't make much of a sense.
In FF6, Espers were magical beings from another dimension. In FF8, GF’s are basically just monsters that can be Junctioned to a human. Unclear? Well yes, but it wouldn’t be the first time that summons weren’t explained (ie all except FF6 and FF10).Really, it’s basically the same deal, it’s just that there is no Magicite that links the human to the summon.


I at least can't see magic by a material thing you can refine from items. That is just idiot and bizzarre. o_o

Err, you mean like Magicite/Materia/Staffs in FFIX? It’s not really a new concept….


Magic, used in battle, is useless. I haven't talked ANYTHING about its another usefulnesses. As you said, magic enhance your stats and limit breaks. This ruined FFVIII to me. Limit Breaks are too overpowered, and they don't make sense as well (Hey! I'm almost dead! But because of some idiot reason I can do 9999 damage 16 times against an enemy now! Hoo-ray!).
The limit break system was based on the same system seen in FF6, ie near death attacks. Really, it’s the same as the system used in FF7 and FFX, you still get the limits from taking damage. The only difference is that you use it straight away, you can’t store it. Meh, sure you could technically pull of a limit break as every attack you every make in this game, but then the bosses were made harder later in the game to compensate ( I’d like to see anyone beat Omega with the attack command!)


Save FFX? Wtf are you talking about? They sometimes even ditch Tidus, in favor of Yuna!
And Edea was very important in the two first discs. They ditched Seifer (not like someone would miss him *shot*) in favor of her, when he is just as bad good as Edea.

In general, I would say that FFX had the most developed supporting characters, they all had their own, rather complex story (I mean come on, it turns out Auron was DEAD). I wouldn’t say that they ditched Seifer in favour of Edea. He maintained his relevance to the plot right up until the end of disk 3 (which, in all actuality, was just before the final dungeon) Regarding Seifer, his purpose is similar to Kuja in FFIX (God, I’ll get flamed for that one). He basically gives you someone to hate for the most part of the game, while the main antagonist stays in hiding until the final battle.


And Quistis, Zell, Irvine and Selphie only had more "screen time" than other characters in other FFs because there are only 6 PCs, as you said. But FFIX has 8 PCs and Eiko, Vivi, Steiner and maybe Quina have much, much more screen time than anyone from FFVIII. And that's because some people say that FFIX is shorter!
And this "whole list" would have too many people from FFVI, if you're talking about PCs.

I don’t really remember any of the characters in FF9 getting any more development than those in FF8. I think this is probably a question of personal perception. Eiko and Amarant don’t really enter the story until halfway through the second disk (and you don’t need to get Quina until the beginning of the second as well), while you get of the characters in FF8 by about three quarters of the way through the first. Plus, you had a shot at controlling Seifer in the beginning as well. As for the list, I would say most of them come from I-V rather than 6…

Hehe, it’s nice to see that people have actually replied to this thread ( I was a bit worried when it passed the 24 hour mark with only one reply…). It would be nice to see some people bash the earlier FF games though, that’s always fun, and not easy to defend either….

[Alexander]

Hehe, I think we should assume that Ultimecia knew that she wasn’t going to be consumed as well during Time Compression. As I said, my theory is that Time Compression would make Ultimecia everything, everywhere, at every time. Basically, she would have become the Universe…if that makes sense…meh, it makes sense to me (must have made sense to Primus Inter Pares as well, since it’s a derivative of one of his theories…). Ultimecia is not the only FF antagonist we know nothing about. Chaos, Zeomus, X-Death, Necron; nothing much is known about any of these guys. The thing is, all of these games had supplementary antagonists that were developed to a greater extent. For FF8, it was Seifer, more on that later. Really, if you don’t count Time Compression, there aren’t many plot holes in this game, and those that exist are rather easy to fill in (ie, Squall’s father being Laguna). As for love in this game, I think you will have a hard time proving that there was any more reason for Zidane to love garnet than for Squall to love Rinoa. It was hinted at THE ENTIRE way through the game, it was fairly obvious that this was the direction the story was going to take. The only complication was Quistis who loved Squall as well, yet decided tha tit wasn’t truly love later in the game (yes, a bit weak, but what do you want?).

Yeah, this theory makes sense. But as I said, this is a theory. >_<
About the other villains...
Chaos is garland, IIRC.
Zeromus is Zemus, all of that Lunarian thing, KluYa had two sons, he died, one was controlled for Zemus, yadda yadda yadda... o.o' He is one big mystery, but at least he has a somewhat clear mission.
And about Ex-Death and Necron. Yup, I agree with you. I was -oh so disappointed- when Necron appeared. >_< And Ex-Death is... the villain. Simple like that. No true reason to be the villain. XD



Once again, Magic is still an energy in FF8, it’s just been put into different categories. I really don’t see who magic was explained any less clearly in FF8, where in past FF games it was something you could simply BUY FROM SHOPS! And FFIX didn’t exactly have a clear explanation of magic either, it was something you learned from…a stick. Hmmm…So far the best explanation of magic has been in FF6, and that was merely “we get it from magical creatures.”

I said before that FFI/II/III/V, where you buy magic, that was somewhat implicit they buy scrolls/books/WHATEVER from the shops and chant the spell contained in it. Like Fire Emblem. o_o And I said above that ability system don't make much of a sense as well, but Vivi could learn new magics cointaned in staves. It isn't that bad to me. o.o'
And yeah, magic isn't explained in much games... I forgot XD You got a point.


In FF6, Espers were magical beings from another dimension. In FF8, GF’s are basically just monsters that can be Junctioned to a human. Unclear? Well yes, but it wouldn’t be the first time that summons weren’t explained (ie all except FF6 and FF10).Really, it’s basically the same deal, it’s just that there is no Magicite that links the human to the summon.

Okay, wait.
FFIII don't have ANY explanation about Summons. Oh hell you can buy them! >_< As for FFV.
FFIV, with the Land of Summoned Monsters, does a very very very bried explanation about them. o.o
FFVII doesn't have explanations to them either, they were Materia as anything else... XP
And FFIX? Did you forget FFIX? FFIX has a lot of its history based on the Eidolons! Eidolon Wall in Disc 4 explain A LOT about them! It is SO UNFAIR to exclude them! T_T
And... o_O I can't understand what GFs are. If they are scientifically made, creatures from the past, etc. It is too unclear... They tried to explain (by saying they erase your memories -___-) and they complicated it all. Well, it's just me, I think;


Err, you mean like Magicite/Materia/Staffs in FFIX? It’s not really a new concept….

No, no. I mean...
Magicite is material. Magic itself is not.
Materia is material (duh!). Magic itself is not.
Staves are material, as well (duh). Magic itself is not.
Magic itself IS material in FF8 (or it seems to be). @_@


The limit break system was based on the same system seen in FF6, ie near death attacks. Really, it’s the same as the system used in FF7 and FFX, you still get the limits from taking damage. The only difference is that you use it straight away, you can’t store it. Meh, sure you could technically pull of a limit break as every attack you every make in this game, but then the bosses were made harder later in the game to compensate ( I’d like to see anyone beat Omega with the attack command!)
I know. But you couldn't truly abuse Limit Breaks, Overdrive, etc.
You cant abuse FFVI's Desperation Attacks, either. They randomly happen when you have 1/32 of your HP or less. I can't abuse it. o_O
With Aura and such, you can abuse Limit Breaks in FFVIII. I don't like it thatmuch, since the only Limit Breaks that you can abuse without being ovrpowered are Quistis' (Blue Magic) and Irvine (sure, Pulse Ammo, but it is SLOOOOW and rare).
And no boss is THAT harder to make you use offensive Magic/ offensive GFs/etc. Later in the game you can beat pretty much anything, with the right Junctions and Aura... o.o


In general, I would say that FFX had the most developed supporting characters, they all had their own, rather complex story (I mean come on, it turns out Auron was DEAD). I wouldn’t say that they ditched Seifer in favour of Edea. He maintained his relevance to the plot right up until the end of disk 3 (which, in all actuality, was just before the final dungeon) Regarding Seifer, his purpose is similar to Kuja in FFIX (God, I’ll get flamed for that one). He basically gives you someone to hate for the most part of the game, while the main antagonist stays in hiding until the final battle.

I won't flame you, but his purpose is NOT NEARLY THE SAME as Kuja... xD And he only got a good importance in Disc 3... ><



I don’t really remember any of the characters in FF9 getting any more development than those in FF8. I think this is probably a question of personal perception. Eiko and Amarant don’t really enter the story until halfway through the second disk (and you don’t need to get Quina until the beginning of the second as well), while you get of the characters in FF8 by about three quarters of the way through the first. Plus, you had a shot at controlling Seifer in the beginning as well. As for the list, I would say most of them come from I-V rather than 6…

Um... ehr... Vivi. o.o You control Beatrix, as well... o.o and Steiner changes a lot throughtout the game. In FFVIII, they are the same thing, since the beginning until the very end.
And, hey! It isn't fair to put PCs from FFI in that list! I mean, they don't even talk! XD


Hehe, it’s nice to see that people have actually replied to this thread ( I was a bit worried when it passed the 24 hour mark with only one reply…). It would be nice to see some people bash the earlier FF games though, that’s always fun, and not easy to defend either….

Yeah, I liked this too... someone defending the game without fanboyism \o/ And someone criticizing the game without "senseless bashing" \o\ I hope that other people do this, as well o.o
And... I want to watch this too XD FFVII fanboys saying "zOMG FFI SUX IT DUZN'T HAVE OMNISLASH" XDDDDD

[DJZen]

You're STILL all wrong.

[MushroomZOMBIE]

Alexander-FFVII fanboys saying "zOMG FFI SUX IT DUZN'T HAVE OMNISLASH"
Fanboyism......another side-effect of stupidity!Please go & try some other FF games!!!! :thumb:

[KuRt]

Imo FF8 sukcs. It has overpowered limits, the equip system is bad, junction system is bad and you cant have any armor, the plote was messy and Squall is such a biatch with his "...whatever..." attidute.

[Alexander]

Alexander-FFVII fanboys saying "zOMG FFI SUX IT DUZN'T HAVE OMNISLASH"
Fanboyism......another side-effect of stupidity!Please go & try some other FF games!!!! :thumb:

Some of them are so stupid that when they bother to play another game, they bash it because it's not like his dear game. Plus, they distort the reality. Like the guy called "Spuma" in my signature. :D

[RedCydranth]

And my complains about FFVIII.

The storyline. Full of plotholes, sometimes even seriously lacking (why does Ultimecia want to compress time, after all? x.x), and sometimes forced. Like... the Trabia Garden event. And th whole Squall/Rinoa thing. From nothing Squall loved Rinoa. This is sick.

Agreed. She wants to compress time because she CAN. The same reason a dog licks himself. If you can do it, do it!


The battles. Junction was bizzarre. Easy to catch, but bizzarre. No MP or equipment is very strange, as well.

How the hell do you junction magic to your, let's say, vitality? How can a "stock" of Blizzagas make you more resistant to physical attacks?And how do you junction a guardian force to yourself? (Okay, ability system is a little strange as well, but it makes a little sense)

And stocking/drawing. Magic is an essence, an energy. Magic is not a material thing. FFVIII made magic seem material. Like...

Son: Daddy, daddy! Did you see that? Now Bite Bug has Firaga! I want some! Please please please!
Daddy: Okay. *junctioning GF... somehow*
Son: YAY! ^_^
I understand what you are saying buy its the same as in FFVII. How does placing a green rock in your sword allow you to cast magic? It makes it seem physical too because without the materia, you cant cast crap. I tend to throw the whole magic and how it works into the realm of.. FANTASY.


And about the characters. They focused WAY TOO MUCH in Squall, Rinoa, Edea and Laguna. The others are sitting in the dark, watching. Much like Digimon Frontier, in the end. And Digimon Frontier stinks. So this is not a good analogy. >_<

So, you are telling me you want a game where you learn nothing about the heros, antagonist and love interest? Go play FFI then. Jeez. Don't complain because they emphasize the MAIN CHARACTERS. Zell, Selphie, Irvine and Quistis are in the story, but they aren't the focus of the story. Its like reading Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and it focusing on Grumpy, not Snow White, Prince Charming and Melificent (the horned witch). The story wouldn't be the same without the dwarves, but its not the main focus. You get me?

Oh, and about the fanboys. OMG FFVII is TEH Roxorz!!!11111!!11!11!!one!1

I am an FF fanboy, but I hardly believe ANY of us speak like that. And for ANY of you to say you aren't fan boy/girls is ludicrous. Look at the title of this website and tell me you aren't a fanboy. Yeah... We all are, and we don't speak that way.

My turn to get flamed!

[ShunNakamura]

I wanted to post this just to say.
FFVIII
You can store energy yes? So why would it have to be physical? You store so much energy and release it bit by bit in the form of the spells it takes.

As for applying it and changing stats. In the realm of fantasy I would imagine this would easily be possible.. after all you have buff spells.. so why can't you buff by absorbing the energy into you?(not most sensical but meh)


Also the sign of the good story teller is to leave some blanks. You have to leave something for every one to imagine... I wouldn't read a book where everything was spelled out and my imagination couldn't get a kick start. Off course it is a delicate balance. But I feel 8 maintained it well enough, perhaps not as good as the world's best authors.. but it was fine. Plus they may have thought the magic thing was a logic leap that we would all be able to perform. Assumptions can reak havoc when writing.

FF6
As for this.. well I loved the lack of a main character. It was added realism to me. Someone always would take charge with plans.. but it felt more real.. It was on a world scale. Think about if the planet completely changed like it does would you end up in the spots with the rest of your party? It was chosen to help build up characters stories that they felt needed some building. I would have made it more mandatory to pick everyone else up, for story purposes.

The loss of focus is annoying at times.. but I don't think it truely hurt the story line(possibly cause I have read books far worse in that focus category. Plus most books I like have many many points of veiw.. and you will sometimes be in one persons point of veiw for a while.. and not see them again till the end.... 400+ pages later. So this may just be personal taste.

FFIV
About the biggest gripe I got with any FF game I have played is the number of random battles in FFIV... I mean really.... I only like fighing so much.

[Alexander]

Agreed. She wants to compress time because she CAN. The same reason a dog licks himself. If you can do it, do it!

I want to stab someone with a knife because I can. You know, only because I can. If I can do it, let me do it! *stabs you* See what I mean? XD


I understand what you are saying buy its the same as in FFVII. How does placing a green rock in your sword allow you to cast magic? It makes it seem physical too because without the materia, you cant cast crap. I tend to throw the whole magic and how it works into the realm of.. FANTASY.

Well, Materias are orbs with magical power contained in it, yadda yadda yadda etc etc o.o the Materia isn't the magic itself, plus Materia isn't Magic only.


So, you are telling me you want a game where you learn nothing about the heros, antagonist and love interest? Go play FFI then. Jeez. Don't complain because they emphasize the MAIN CHARACTERS. Zell, Selphie, Irvine and Quistis are in the story, but they aren't the focus of the story. Its like reading Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and it focusing on Grumpy, not Snow White, Prince Charming and Melificent (the horned witch). The story wouldn't be the same without the dwarves, but its not the main focus. You get me?

Sure, they should focus in the main heroes. I never complained about that. But FFVIII focus WAY TOO MUCH on them. The other FFs (or at least most of them) focus on the main characters, sure, but they give some development to the others. FFVIII don't. They are the same dummies, since the beginning until the very end. You get me? I wasn't complaining about the main characters ditch the secondary ones in the end. I was complaining about FFVIII doing that SINCE THE VERT BEGINIING. o_o


Oh, and about the fanboys. OMG FFVII is TEH Roxorz!!!11111!!11!11!!one!1

I am an FF fanboy, but I hardly believe ANY of us speak like that. And for ANY of you to say you aren't fan boy/girls is ludicrous. Look at the title of this website and tell me you aren't a fanboy. Yeah... We all are, and we don't speak that way.

My turn to get flamed!

Again, we are FF fanboys. But (insert specific FF here) fanboys are totally different. And they'd speak like that, surely XD

[ThroneofDravaris]

You're STILL all wrong.

It wasn’t really that funny the first time…



No, no. I mean...
Magicite is material. Magic itself is not.
Materia is material (duh!). Magic itself is not.
Staves are material, as well (duh). Magic itself is not.
Magic itself IS material in FF8 (or it seems to be). @_@

I was talking about the idea of refining Magic from items via magic refineries. It’s not really that different from any of these.


I know. But you couldn't truly abuse Limit Breaks, Overdrive, etc.
You cant abuse FFVI's Desperation Attacks, either. They randomly happen when you have 1/32 of your HP or less. I can't abuse it. o_O
With Aura and such, you can abuse Limit Breaks in FFVIII. I don't like it thatmuch, since the only Limit Breaks that you can abuse without being ovrpowered are Quistis' (Blue Magic) and Irvine (sure, Pulse Ammo, but it is SLOOOOW and rare).
And no boss is THAT harder to make you use offensive Magic/ offensive GFs/etc. Later in the game you can beat pretty much anything, with the right Junctions and Aura... o.o

True, but quite a few FF games had other combo’s that you could exploit.

FFV: 2 Swords, Sshot and thunder sword magic =dead Omega.

FFVI: Genji Glove, Offering, 2 Atma Weapons (possible at the end) and Max HP= Kekfa dead in one hit.

FFVII: Knights of the Round, HP absorb, mime. IMO the cheapest of them all.

At least with the Limits in FF8, the final Bosses/challenge bosses were still challenging (especially with the random factor of Renzokuken). These combos made even the hardest bosses in the series fall in a flash. And you could always use them, you didn’t need to be on critical HP.

While we’re on the subject, the Trances in FFIX weren’t exactly balanced either. True, you had to wait for them to charge, but once they did, you could unleash quite a few 9999 damage attacks before it ran out. It made some of the otherwise challenging story bosses in this game (ie, Ark) quite straight forward. Don’t get me wrong, I love Trance, it was the only Limit system in the series that made sense, but it was far from perfect it terms of balance.


I won't flame you, but his purpose is NOT NEARLY THE SAME as Kuja... xD And he only got a good importance in Disc 3... ><
I would have to say if anything, Seifer became LESS important to the story as it progressed, not more.
I didn’t really mean in terms of the story, I meant he was the antagonist that had a face during the game, the one that was there until close to the end. I don’t think anyone would be indsane enough to argue that Kuja was anything LIKE Seifer in terms of the plot, nor would they try and say that he was anywhere near as developed as Kuja.

[thinking of names is hard]

Alot of quotes flying round this forum...so ill only make two...


I think Faith was referring to 8 and not 7?

Hehe, fixed it.
Good good...


So anyway... I like all the games but i thought that the characers in ffix was lacking in some parts. I didnt really gat into the game like other final fantasies. Normally, characters have features that i associate with them. But in ffix, i seriously cannot describe any of their characteristics. They seemed bland to me....All i remmember is that Eiko was a brat and Quina liked food...and...erm...thats it.Gameplay was great-storyline was too, but the characters...


Hehe, I’m kind of surprised that you can find features of characters in ANY FF game that can be related to oneself. I think in FF9, they tried to make the characters as stereotypical as possible, as to be reminiscent of the classical FF games. Steiner is a dedicated knight, Garnet is a selfless Princess with an high-class education, Quina is…well…Quina. While Zidane proved to be very happy-go-lucky, he seriously begins to question who he is later in the game, which adds a certain degree of depth to the characters. Vivi is probably one of the most complex and tragic characters in the series (well, depending on whether you believe he dies in the end). But most importantly, FF9’s antagonist, Kuja, was one of the best developed characters out there. You both hate him and pity him at the same time. While the game had some 2D characters like Amarant and Quina ( but then, did Quina really need development?), I think these characters are outweighed by the more complex ones.
I meant the actual characters...we get what role they play in the story and what position they fill-but their personality. Vivi was the best explained but the rest of the cast...Who can give me a character description of Steiner? (rhetorical question so please dont all answer it and prove me wrong)

Everyone in viii was explained. They all had character trates. ALL of them. The only characters i felt content with in ff9 was vivi and Beatrix.
With viii, the past was explained for each one. It was the most believable within the fantasy plot ive ever seen in a game. (minus the orphanage thing-becaue i know somone was going to say it so ill beat you to it...just like to say that i actually understood the storyline)
If anyone wants to point out one character that wasnt developed in ff8 (i mean the main ones) i think its my duty to disagree with them.

[Alexander]

I was talking about the idea of refining Magic from items via magic refineries. It’s not really that different from any of these.

Oh. XD You've got a great point then o.o


True, but quite a few FF games had other combo’s that you could exploit.

FFV: 2 Swords, Sshot and thunder sword magic =dead Omega.

FFVI: Genji Glove, Offering, 2 Atma Weapons (possible at the end) and Max HP= Kekfa dead in one hit.

FFVII: Knights of the Round, HP absorb, mime. IMO the cheapest of them all.

At least with the Limits in FF8, the final Bosses/challenge bosses were still challenging (especially with the random factor of Renzokuken). These combos made even the hardest bosses in the series fall in a flash. And you could always use them, you didn’t need to be on critical HP.

While we’re on the subject, the Trances in FFIX weren’t exactly balanced either. True, you had to wait for them to charge, but once they did, you could unleash quite a few 9999 damage attacks before it ran out. It made some of the otherwise challenging story bosses in this game (ie, Ark) quite straight forward. Don’t get me wrong, I love Trance, it was the only Limit system in the series that made sense, but it was far from perfect it terms of balance.

Well, but those tricks you only get in the veeeery end. You get Limit Breaks since the beginning, so... =P
But still, you got a point. Trance can be VERY unbalanced. Grand Lethal XD and Double Doomsday can give nightmares to anyone o_o


I would have to say if anything, Seifer became LESS important to the story as it progressed, not more.
I didn’t really mean in terms of the story, I meant he was the antagonist that had a face during the game, the one that was there until close to the end. I don’t think anyone would be indsane enough to argue that Kuja was anything LIKE Seifer in terms of the plot, nor would they try and say that he was anywhere near as developed as Kuja.

...Oh again. XD

(This discussion is rocking! It's hard to see someone defending an FF like you. \o/ Most of the time, people bash me and stuff. XD Not in EoFF of course o_O)

[RedCydranth]

Agreed. She wants to compress time because she CAN. The same reason a dog licks himself. If you can do it, do it!

I want to stab someone with a knife because I can. You know, only because I can. If I can do it, let me do it! *stabs you* See what I mean? XD

Well, if you knew you could get away with stabbing someone, you would. even if you were 90% sure could get away with it and you really 100% wanted to, you would do it. She believed she could get away with it and tried to. My point stands. Because she CAN.



I understand what you are saying buy its the same as in FFVII. How does placing a green rock in your sword allow you to cast magic? It makes it seem physical too because without the materia, you cant cast crap. I tend to throw the whole magic and how it works into the realm of.. FANTASY.

Well, Materias are orbs with magical power contained in it, yadda yadda yadda etc etc o.o the Materia isn't the magic itself, plus Materia isn't Magic only.

If you read my post and weren't so hel bent on being right, i DID write Green rock, meaning green materia. Name one green materia that doesn't give the user any magic. Right I am again.



So, you are telling me you want a game where you learn nothing about the heros, antagonist and love interest? Go play FFI then. Jeez. Don't complain because they emphasize the MAIN CHARACTERS. Zell, Selphie, Irvine and Quistis are in the story, but they aren't the focus of the story. Its like reading Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and it focusing on Grumpy, not Snow White, Prince Charming and Melificent (the horned witch). The story wouldn't be the same without the dwarves, but its not the main focus. You get me?

Sure, they should focus in the main heroes. I never complained about that. But FFVIII focus WAY TOO MUCH on them. The other FFs (or at least most of them) focus on the main characters, sure, but they give some development to the others. FFVIII don't. They are the same dummies, since the beginning until the very end. You get me? I wasn't complaining about the main characters ditch the secondary ones in the end. I was complaining about FFVIII doing that SINCE THE VERT BEGINIING. o_o

Vert = green, but I think you ment very, as the green beginning is illogical. Yep, Man i hate games that are focused on the main characters. I want a game that gives me the hero of the story at the beginning and then I never see him until the end and know nothing of why or how he got there. Meanwhile I watch the story of 4 people who like to dream of cherry trees and dandelions for 30+ hours of gameplay. Then beat the final enemy and never play the game again.

Sure sounds great huh? If you want a game that focuses none onn the main character, go play Guardian's Crusade. You'll love it.



Oh, and about the fanboys. OMG FFVII is TEH Roxorz!!!11111!!11!11!!one!1

I am an FF fanboy, but I hardly believe ANY of us speak like that. And for ANY of you to say you aren't fan boy/girls is ludicrous. Look at the title of this website and tell me you aren't a fanboy. Yeah... We all are, and we don't speak that way.

My turn to get flamed!

Again, we are FF fanboys. But (insert specific FF here) fanboys are totally different. And they'd speak like that, surely XD

I was recently proved wrong in a PM... A fellow named killzonerules PM'ed me and he typed an entire paragraph without a single period, comma or apostrophe. he was enthusiastic that I too liked Paine from FFX-2. He's a nice person, but needs to learn how to use grammar.

So, I guess there ARE fanboys that talk poorly. I stand corrected on this issue.

[Alexander]

Well, if you knew you could get away with stabbing someone, you would. even if you were 90% sure could get away with it and you really 100% wanted to, you would do it. She believed she could get away with it and tried to. My point stands. Because she CAN.

You got a point, but it's hard to think how the hell you will get away with a time compression, you know, because you will be affected as well. o_O
But there's that theory about "She could become everywhere and everything", yadda yadda, but... it is a thoery o.o


If you read my post and weren't so hel bent on being right, i DID write Green rock, meaning green materia. Name one green materia that doesn't give the user any magic. Right I am again.

1- What's wrong on trying to be right? I'm defending my opinion, you know. You are just about as bent as me. And I dnd't read "green", sorry.


Vert = green, but I think you ment very, as the green beginning is illogical. Yep, Man i hate games that are focused on the main characters. I want a game that gives me the hero of the story at the beginning and then I never see him until the end and know nothing of why or how he got there. Meanwhile I watch the story of 4 people who like to dream of cherry trees and dandelions for 30+ hours of gameplay. Then beat the final enemy and never play the game again.

Sure sounds great huh? If you want a game that focuses none onn the main character, go play Guardian's Crusade. You'll love it.

It's not funny to make fun of me because I typoed. It is very clear that I meant "very", because the beginning obviously isn't green.
And you are distorting what I said. Let me make it clear to you. FFVIII doesn't try to develop Zell/Quistis/Irvine/Selphie. Not even once. Okay, they try to develop Quistis, but it didn't work very well. While most of the other FFs develop most characters.
And FFX ditches the main character already in favor of Yuna, thanks.


I was recently proved wrong in a PM... A fellow named killzonerules PM'ed me and he typed an entire paragraph without a single period, comma or apostrophe. he was enthusiastic that I too liked Paine from FFX-2. He's a nice person, but needs to learn how to use grammar.

So, I guess there ARE fanboys that talk poorly. I stand corrected on this issue.

See? o.o For example, I was severely bashed in a forum of Fire Emblem just because I think that Lilina from FE6 is the best character in the game... one of the moderators typoed a paragraph full of bashing without punctuation, and no he wasn't kidding.

Anyway. *white flag* Yeah, white flag. I'm tired of defending my opinion. No, nothing wrong on correcting me, but making fun of me twice destroyed any will I had to continue this discussion.

[DJZen]

You're STILL all wrong.

It wasn’t really that funny the first time…

Maybe not in your eyes. To me the only way to make this thread not stupid is to lighten the mood. Forgive me for thinking that.

P.S. Wrong

[RedCydranth]

Alexander, the point of this entire thread is to prove everyone else wrong, no matter how correct they are. Or at least thats the way I intrepreted it. So, giving up on this conversation is WRONG! LOL.

And about the compression of time thing, She's commiting suicide and taking the rest of everything with her. Because she CAN.

[DJZen]

Alexander, the point of this entire thread is to prove everyone else wrong, no matter how correct they are. Or at least thats the way I intrepreted it. So, giving up on this conversation is WRONG! LOL.

OMGWTFBBQ you are SO wrong about that! He should TOTALLY give up because he IS wrong! Just like you! And everyone else!

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

Ok, I think ff8 had a wonderful plot with as many plot holes as any of the other games, and i think the characters where the most realistic (not like most characters in ff9 Quina Eiko Steiner..., and they did to try to develop Irvine. End of disc 1 his big pressure shot.

[ThroneofDravaris]

Maybe not in your eyes. To me the only way to make this thread not stupid is to lighten the mood. Forgive me for thinking that.


You shouldn't feel the need to help make this thread less "stupid". Your not really contributing anything to this thread if you don’t post your opinion on an FF game (which I clearly stated in my first post)



Alexander, the point of this entire thread is to prove everyone else wrong, no matter how correct they are. Or at least thats the way I intrepreted it. So, giving up on this conversation is WRONG! LOL.



Err, that wasn't really my intent...the idea of this thread is for someone to post their opinion on what they think was poorly done in an FF game, and see whether they are wrong on some or all of their points. The idea is for people to get a better idea of the difference between what was actually flawed in the game, and what they personally didn’t like about the game. There’s not really any point in arguing something that is clearly true…

[Alexander]

Ok, I think ff8 had a wonderful plot with as many plot holes as any of the other games, and i think the characters where the most realistic (not like most characters in ff9 Quina Eiko Steiner..., and they did to try to develop Irvine. End of disc 1 his big pressure shot.

Uh? As many plot holes as any other games? The other games don't have a evil sorceress pooping out of nowhere, with no background, and trying to compress the world for no real reason.
Realistic characters? Duh? I'd prefer totally non-realistic characters if they had some development. Like FFIX. And they DID NOT try to develop Irvine. He just didn't want to shot Edea because the GFs didn't erase his memory. Oh. GF erasing memories... SO forced... and everyone in your team bar Rinoa were from the same orphanage and didn't remeber that because of them... OOOH SO FORCED T______T'''

(Yes, I answered. Just to prove this guy wrong. But that another conversation is dead. *buries it* u.u)

[thinking of names is hard]

You shouldn't feel the need to help make this thread less "stupid". Your not really contributing anything to this thread if you don’t post your opinion on an FF game (which I clearly stated in my first post)


Your wrong!!!
Ahem...sorry-couldnt resist it.

Thought of another really annoying thing. Playing as a character only to find they wont join your team. It really annoyed me when in viii Edea joined your team for ten minutes and then buggered off. I thought i'd get to keeep her. Or with General Leo in vi...why the hell did he have to die? IN the same game, you start as Celes...alone...my weakest character who i never used. Took me ages to gt my team back together.

Ive only just realsied this when playing vii and not realising Aeria was going to die. She was one of my strongest characters dammit. In viii when you lose Rinoa for a whole disk-again one of my strongest characters. Its annoying. I dont care about the storyline give me Aeris back!

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

what's the background behind Jenova? Ultemecia came from the future and i admit she doesn't have much of a background but neither do lots of other characters from ff's. The characters are developed probably the most developed from any ff. ff9, who developed... vivi, and zidane?

[Alexander]

what's the background behind Jenova? Ultemecia came from the future and i admit she doesn't have much of a background but neither do lots of other characters from ff's. The characters are developed probably the most developed from any ff. ff9, who developed... vivi, and zidane?

Vivi, Zidane, Dagger, Steiner, Eiko, Beatrix, and Kuja.

Who is developed in FFVIII? Squall, Rinoa, Seifer (sort of) and Laguna. At least in FFIX, the villain is developed.

Zell, Quistis, Irvine and Selphie ARE NOT developed.

And, yeah, Jenova doesn't have much of a background, but she is not the main villain, Sephiroth is.

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

How is vivi and etc. developed?

[Alexander]

How is vivi and etc. developed?

Ehr.

Vivi = He has a huge development. At first he doesn't know what he is, and why he looks like the mass produced Black Mages. Then, when he goes to Black Mage Village, he discovers he is made like the other Black Mages, and that he will eventually stop moving. If you say Vivi is not developed, you are officially one of those FFVIIItards of my quote, in my signature. u.u

Zidane = He starts normally, self-trusting, hits all girls, yeah. But he starts to notice he is truly in love with Dagger. In Disc 3, when she becomes a queen, he himself says he can't live without her anymore. But his true development comes when Garland tells him he is a Genome, he was made to be Gaia's angel of death, and he is Kuja's "brother". Everyone makes him see that he is not alone, he never was, and he was protected while he protected everyone. He is well developed, don't negate that.

Dagger = She changed. A LOT. Her personality was VERY developed throughout the game. Unlike certain characters from FFVIII that are the same crap the whole game. She tried to do something on her own, she wanted to prove she is not only a princess. She tried to be independent. She was different. Even if she weren't well-developed, her personality alone would manage.

The other aren't as developed, but Steiner, Beatrix and Eiko have a nice development. They change the ways of thinking, and such.

If you still are not satisfied... well, I could send a detailed PM. But I will not do that until YOU answer ME how the characters from FFVIII are developed.

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

well that's 3 just like ff8 and i think Zidane is very forced as a character and not believable.
(i just like arguing and making controversy!)

[Alexander]

Prove me wrong and show me how developed the characters from FFVIII bar Squall, Rinoa and Laguna are. XD

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

Zell has to come to terms that he's in orphan granted that's a very small change, Quistis has to let go of Squall.Edea changes alot through the game and has to live with her actions when she was possessed and even fujin and raijin change alittle and become more mature by the end of the game.

[Alexander]

And Selphie and Irvine?

Plus, Edea wasn't developed. She just changed because Ultimecia wasn't in her anymore. And Fujin and Raijin don't change. Raijin said they are with Seifer. Always. So, if they seem more mature, that's because Seifer changed.

And Zell's change was so minimal that doesn't even count. IIRC he didn't even get sad.

[ThroneofDravaris]

And Selphie and Irvine?

Plus, Edea wasn't developed. She just changed because Ultimecia wasn't in her anymore. And Fujin and Raijin don't change. Raijin said they are with Seifer. Always. So, if they seem more mature, that's because Seifer changed.

And Zell's change was so minimal that doesn't even count. IIRC he didn't even get sad.

I think what people fail to understand about the supporting playable characters in FF8 is that all of them, save Quistis, are mainly designed to add comic relief to the game. Zell is the outspoken, over energetic, testosterone pumped moron; Selphie is the sweet, happy-go-lucky yet psychopathic teenage girl and Irvine is the visually appeasing sexual deviant. None of these characters were supposed to provide any serious depth to the game, so should really be considered in the same manner that Quina is in FF9. Quistis, being a more serious character, is developed to a certain extent. Unfortunately, due to the early appearance of Rinoa in the game, all of her development had to be dealt literally in the first few hours of gameplay. There is brief evidence later that she has changed, but since it is no longer of relevance to the game it is only mentioned in passing. Fujin and Raijin do change towards the end of the game, they realize that no matter how important it was to maintain there “posse”, it wasn’t worth becoming what Seifer had turned into. As for Edea, even though she didn’t really change her personality, I think the tragedy of what had fallen upon her made her far more interesting than anything she ‘learned’ from the experience. The whole “Sacrificing herself in order to keep Ultimecia away from her orphans” thing made her at least a very virtuous character. Headmaster Cid may not have been the most interesting character (unless you count his uncanny resemblance to Robin Williams), yet he too was developed quite significantly during the game. He starts as the usually “authority” figure, but then you begin to realize that he has no real power over the Garden. I found his reasons for creating Garden most interesting, as was his dealings with Gardenmaster Norg. Character development doesn’t necessarily involve the characters changing (e.g. all of the characters in The Glass Menagerie, Shinji Ikari in Evangelion etc.), it sometime just means an examination of a character’s background.

[thinking of names is hard]

How is vivi and etc. developed?

Ehr.

Vivi = He has a huge development. At first he doesn't know what he is, and why he looks like the mass produced Black Mages. Then, when he goes to Black Mage Village, he discovers he is made like the other Black Mages, and that he will eventually stop moving. If you say Vivi is not developed, you are officially one of those FFVIIItards of my quote, in my signature. u.u

Zidane = He starts normally, self-trusting, hits all girls, yeah. But he starts to notice he is truly in love with Dagger. In Disc 3, when she becomes a queen, he himself says he can't live without her anymore. But his true development comes when Garland tells him he is a Genome, he was made to be Gaia's angel of death, and he is Kuja's "brother". Everyone makes him see that he is not alone, he never was, and he was protected while he protected everyone. He is well developed, don't negate that.

Dagger = She changed. A LOT. Her personality was VERY developed throughout the game. Unlike certain characters from FFVIII that are the same crap the whole game. She tried to do something on her own, she wanted to prove she is not only a princess. She tried to be independent. She was different. Even if she weren't well-developed, her personality alone would manage.

The other aren't as developed, but Steiner, Beatrix and Eiko have a nice development. They change the ways of thinking, and such.

If you still are not satisfied... well, I could send a detailed PM. But I will not do that until YOU answer ME how the characters from FFVIII are developed.

Zidane: Developed? Complete crap! Yeah you heard me. The love between him and Dagger wasnt emphasised enough. When he was told he was a genome (way into the game might i add) we had no information into what he was feeling. Square had great potential into giving us information into what he could have been like, but there was nothing. Basically, they didnt build on any feeling he had. One scene where he is told he was a genome, one scene when we see him fall in love with Garret and then thats it. Nothing else after it. He falls in love...yeah, but does that give us any insight to his character? (arguings fun)

Vivi: Yup...i agree (dammit...). He was the most developed in the game, but only to the standard i came to expect to final fantasy. To me it seemed that vivi would have made a better main character rather than Zidane because we understand his feelings and his character.

Garret: Erm...yes and no. Something tells me you really hate viii...Garret was independent....yes it showed that throughout the story, but she was so plastic. I felt no emotion at all to her. She had no personality. We see her relationship with her mother, her travelling with Zidane unwillingly and then falling in love with him, her belief that she could do something to change the world. And after all that no emotion. No personality and no feelings.

[Alexander]

Abotu Zidane. Hey, what was that part of the game, when "You're Not Alone" plays? Just three fights with no reason? No. Zidane's feelings about being a Genome WERE shown, in that part.

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

yea, that's not what i said. His characters dialogue always seemed cheesy to me, beginning of 3 disc whenever he's in the bar proclaiming his love for Garnet....that always makes me laugh.

[Alexander]

And Selphie and Irvine?

Plus, Edea wasn't developed. She just changed because Ultimecia wasn't in her anymore. And Fujin and Raijin don't change. Raijin said they are with Seifer. Always. So, if they seem more mature, that's because Seifer changed.

And Zell's change was so minimal that doesn't even count. IIRC he didn't even get sad.

I think what people fail to understand about the supporting playable characters in FF8 is that all of them, save Quistis, are mainly designed to add comic relief to the game. Zell is the outspoken, over energetic, testosterone pumped moron; Selphie is the sweet, happy-go-lucky yet psychopathic teenage girl and Irvine is the visually appeasing sexual deviant. None of these characters were supposed to provide any serious depth to the game, so should really be considered in the same manner that Quina is in FF9. Quistis, being a more serious character, is developed to a certain extent. Unfortunately, due to the early appearance of Rinoa in the game, all of her development had to be dealt literally in the first few hours of gameplay. There is brief evidence later that she has changed, but since it is no longer of relevance to the game it is only mentioned in passing. Fujin and Raijin do change towards the end of the game, they realize that no matter how important it was to maintain there “posse”, it wasn’t worth becoming what Seifer had turned into. As for Edea, even though she didn’t really change her personality, I think the tragedy of what had fallen upon her made her far more interesting than anything she ‘learned’ from the experience. The whole “Sacrificing herself in order to keep Ultimecia away from her orphans” thing made her at least a very virtuous character. Headmaster Cid may not have been the most interesting character (unless you count his uncanny resemblance to Robin Williams), yet he too was developed quite significantly during the game. He starts as the usually “authority” figure, but then you begin to realize that he has no real power over the Garden. I found his reasons for creating Garden most interesting, as was his dealings with Gardenmaster Norg. Character development doesn’t necessarily involve the characters changing (e.g. all of the characters in The Glass Menagerie, Shinji Ikari in Evangelion etc.), it sometime just means an examination of a character’s background.

I've always known that, and I've never liked that. I want characters with development in FF, if you're going to see them a lot in the plot.

And I've never complaint about Edea, huh u.u

And Shinji Ikari is a piece of crap. 'Nuff said.

And I won't post here anymore. No one posted why they dislike some FF, everyone here is proving me "wrong" because I said what I think. u__u

[RedCydranth]

Wow... I can't believe this in in comparison... FFIX has WAY more character development than VIII. Zidane's inner struggle to love Garnet (someone above typoed Garret twice, leading me to believe they are either a fool, or are consistant with typoes), His hatred for Kuja, but the realization that he's his brother factors in. Also the interaction he has with Vivi, Steiner, Amarant and Freya are more than Squall has with the rest of his team. Steiner has his loyalty to Brahne wash away when she dies, causing him to lose focus on whats important in life. He was forced to realize that he has been a tool for the queen and not a person with his own emotions for so long and that once he comes to grips with these newly found emotions he starts to feel a care and devotion to Beatrix. Vivi has a real identity crisis because he looks at everyone else and notices no one looks like him, he cant remember any semblance of childhood and wants to know where he came from. When he finds out that he's destined to just stop he becomes depressed that he isn't what everyone else is. But with the help of Garnet, he soon relaizes that he may be different, but he can still live a useful life, while he still has it. He realizes that his friendships he has made make him more special than any others of his kind and that fuels his emotions throughout the rest of the game. Garnet has been pampered and protected all her life and everyone sees her as a feeble princess, but what she desires is to be her own person, so she escapes the castle with tantalus and realizes just how sheltered her life was. She sees the views that people have towards her family and realizes that her mother isn't as beloved as everyone had told her. She also has to come to grips that her mother wasn't her mother and that she was a summoner much like Eiko. Her interactions with Eiko bring her to face the reality of who she truly is and that her priorities lay with helping the people of her country. Freya is in search of her long lost love and she will do anything to find him. Once she does, and she finds out that his amnesia forces him to not remember her at all, she becomes lost. Her entire quest and life goal complete, but ruined at the same time, where does she go from here? What does one do when their goals in life are complete? Ultimately Freya decides to help Zidane with his life.

Eiko, Amarant and Quina's stories arent that developed but they are still better than FFVIII's. All of them except Squall, Rinoa and Laguna are bland and are virtually the same. "I'm an orphan, what ever shall I do?"

Even if you pull together decent stories for all the FFVIII characters, FFIX's characters stories are still more believable. Also, the interactions between the characters and the friendships that were created throughout IX were genuine and emotional. Squall wasn't friends with Zell, Selphie, Quistis or Irvine for quite a long time, they were just on assignment with him. Rinoa, he had a crush on, Seifer was his rival but also friend in some aspects. FFIX were a team of friends on a mission to discover themselves and life, similar to what we all as humans are. We all go through similar struggles as the characters of FFIX. Zidane tries to figure out the point of his life, don't we all? Garnet worries that she will not be who she always was and that once she becomes queen she will change. Sure we all arent gonna be kings and queens but we worry if we will change when we get a new job, or grow up (for when we were younger). Freya is scared that she will not be remembered after she dies, and we all want to make some impact on humanity before we pass. Vivi wonders the point of existance, as we do when we look up at the stars and think of the grand scheme. If the world is going to end at some point isn't everything we do pointless? If death is imminent, why do anything worthwhile in life? Steiner has a conundrum of figuring out his path, is it okay to do the same thing all the time? Often as people we get trapped in our own little anthill and we work so hard not realizing that there is so much more to life than what we do on a daily basis. Eiko just searches for acceptance. We all want to fit in somewhere, we eek our way through life looking for people and places where we feel accepted and welcome. And yes, Quina even has issues. Is it so bad to do what you want? Do you always have to do what others tell you to do? In life we can decide to make our own paths or follow ones set for us, neither choice is the easy one. FFIX is about life itself, each of the characters go through a series of questions that we all do at one point in our life. This is what sets FFIX so far above the other FF games in terms of realism. This is why I hold FFIX so dear to my heart.

[ThroneofDravaris]

And I won't post here anymore. No one posted why they dislike some FF, everyone here is proving me "wrong" because I said what I think. u__u

Actually, I’ve refuted a few people on there opinions o FF games here so far. The only difference is, you have continued to post, so you’ve provided me with more points to refute. And everyone here has posted an opinion on an FF game (Save DJZen *grumble*) its just that either I’ve already refuted the points they were making, or I agree with them. Please don’t think that people are merely against you, we’re just arguing the idea’s that are put forward that we disagree with. It’s just that most of them have come from you…

You’re right though, this thread has become WAY too much about FF8, or comparing FF8 with FF9. Maybe some more points on FFX, FF7 or any of the earlier games would be good. I know that lots of people had issues with X/X-2, and I have reasons why I think these issues are exaggerated…

[Alexander]

Well, since RedCydranth totally ended the comparision between FFIX and FFVIII (and he told the turth about FFIX *___*), I think someone will say something about another FF soon. If not, I myself say xD~

[theoryonlyworksintheory]

ff9 characters are more believable, a rat girl, a monkey clone, and some made up he/she are more believable? and Zidane has no inner struggle whatsoever to love Garnet
Squall has been haunted all his life by abandoment issues from his childhood and not knowing his parents he loathes himself and completely isolates himself. He's forced into a leadership role he doesn't want. Then he sees the person the abandoned him while he was child and then she disappears just as quickly, obviously he has problems in the beginning of the game. He goes through a major change through the game. He meets Rinoa and finally starts to warm up afterwhile. Then what happens she's possessed and he feels its them against the world. HIS inner struggle to love Rinoa is won and for a very short amount of time he has to deal with the fact that he might have to fight against the very people that he has become friends with to save the one he loves. He and Rinoa clearly have alot of turmoil in Disc 3 over the possession, it's them against almost everyone else, and i know there's alot more i'm forgetting
Rinoa has problems with the family, being devastated about her mother's death and her father's attitude of ignorance about her. She barely has anyone until Squall comes along. She goes through alot of agony because of Squall's whatever attitude and then is possessed. She has to deal with all the problems that encompasses including her thought that she might be killed by the person she desperately loves.
Edea obviously has to deal with her actions when she was possessed and the people she killed. Deep inner turmoil that one.
Cid has to watch his wife like this.
Zell has to deal with being adopted when he thought his parents in Balamb were his biological ones.
Laguna probably changes the most. Having to deal with a war and losing his closest friends for years. Then falling in love with Raine who is adamant to not feel the same way. Having to deal with Elle being Kidnapped and the thought that he might have prevented it. Raine dying. Being captured in Esthar. Then having to deal with the pressures of being a president, and Squall has way more of an interaction and connection.
Seifer has to deal with his inadequacies as a student and Seed and takes it out in rebellion he feels lost and is manipulated by Edea and then Ultemecia. i think that connects because haven't we all been lost and the love story obviously connects to people, this game is all about finding yourself I think and thats what most of us try to do our whole lives.
They were all together as children, orphans. They obviously binded. The opinion that monkey boy and co. are more believable is yours but i'd rather stick to mine. ff9 is mediocre. mediocre interactions, definetly mediocre story and script. That's what makes 8 so special the interactions and emotions and twisted storyline spanning 20 years of the game and many characters. Many other characters go through small changes that i haven't listed and many other emotions are expressed, i'm just not feeling that poetic and eloquent to day so i tried to right down the basics. Clearly you didn't you threw in your own speculation on life that has nothing to do with the game not that bothers me. More people should use their brains and express theirselves. Oh and what issues does quina have what to eat for dinner?

[RedCydranth]

Well, since RedCydranth totally ended the comparision between FFIX and FFVIII (and he told the turth about FFIX *___*), I think someone will say something about another FF soon. If not, I myself say xD~

I gain yet another faithful follower! LOL. I speak the truth always, my friend, its whether you want to be enlightened or not. Follow my words and the truth ye shall find.

Okay enough self lovin' for now. I think we should switch gears and compare earlier FFs.

QUESTION: Which was better? FFI or FFII. Why?

[Alexander]

Tie.

FFII has a fun level-up system, and magic in FFII is very fun as well.
Normal FFI system is fun, too, and White Mage x4 is a hell of a challenge \o\

FFII's storyline looks like Star Wars way too much, but FFI has a -oh so damn cheesy- plot. I mean, your PCs don't talk, not even once. XD

FFII has actual characters. XD~
FFI has a original plot. Even if it is a cheesy one. I -loved- the Chaoses.

I can't really decide which one is better. I prefer the original, and Origins' FFI over original and Origins' FFII, but DoS FFII just pwns DoS FFI in every way. XD

[Hroth]

I didn't bother finishing either FF1 or FF2 cause the story was way too hard to like, follow. I didn't know where to go and when so I just let it go for now. I think that FFVII really sucks. FFVII and FFX were both RPGs for the market and for more people to buy than for actual RPG fans. They were for wide audiences so the story didn't get too deep and the characters were sort of lacking. I did fall in love with Aerith but that is the only character I liked in that game. Square did make Aerith lovable so people would feel bad and hate Sephiroth for it but if you think of it, Square was trying too hard to make people hate Sephiroth: Burning down Nibelheim, Killing Aerith, Slashing Tifa etc etc. They wre trying to make it a game it actually wasn't. Now, I think many many many people think FFVI is the best because it is one of the only actual RPGs in the FF series, FFVII was for marketing, FFX and X-2 was as well and FFI was their first try so they couldn't really make it deeper as it was one of the first RPGs. FFVI and FFIX are somewhat underrated for their actual "RPGness", the FFIX character devellopement system is great, teaching them all these abilities and what not, making them stronger, equipping whatever you want in order to have that kind of power in a certain section of battle and what not. Also, the game is simply magical, I mean come on. It's like watching a Disney children's movie, it may sound dumb but when you were 4, it wasn't. Basically, FFIX is a Disney movie for older people who still have a heart. It is wonderful and the characters are really loveable, fine Quina sucks but whatever, all the others are. There is no reason to dislike FFIX, if you do you hate RPGs or you know nothing about them or the only other valuable reason not to like FFIX is not liking medieval scenes, which is weird but it's a matter of taste. FFVI has a beautiful mix of deep storyline with many branches and layers and a cast of loveable characters that kept you wanting to play, oh and Madonna was in it so come on. The character developement system in FFVI was great as well, you could have so many different combinations that would suit you however you'd want them and with so many characters, there was really no way to be bored. So basically, I think FFVII is over-rated but was a good marketing option for Square. FFX and X-2 was a very good marketing option and a good first look at next-generation FFs. And I think that FFVI and FFIX are real RPGs that, for that reason, dissuaded some people from playing them because it got too deep and too RPG for them. So these are my two cents.