The world is flat!

[Craig]

What would happen if the people of dream Zanarkand tried to walk right out of it into Mount Gagazet, or whatever neighbouring community it is?

[The Anarchy Angel]

The only place in the Dream Zanarkand is Zanarkand, that is the only land there is...or at least that's what i think/got from the game

[Craig]

Exactly, so when the inhabitants ever reached the border of Zanarkand what would they see infront of them? A gaping hole where the rest of Spira would usually be?

[boys from the dwarf]

this stuff isnt realy explained ever by anyone and it isnt supposed to i wonder bout somtings like this but i know they arent supposed to be explained.kay?

[rubah]

I reckon Dream Zanarkand would've been completely surrounded by water.

[Bauch]

Was just wondering about it, in another thread people were asking about why Jecht was chosen, and from the ideas in this thread, what if it was surrounded by the Sea, and since Jecht supposedly went out to sea then was never seen again and presumed dead, but rather that that, it actually is possible to get into Spira from Dream Zanarkand, and by acidentally going too far out Jecht ended up there? Maybe not very likely, but reading the different points just made me wonder since none of it seems to be explained that much.

[Tai-Ti]

i just think tis another one of those things that arn't really important, but just interesting to ask about.

[boys from the dwarf]

i just think tis another one of those things that arn't really important, but just interesting to ask about.
exactly!just like i said before okay so this whole thread and threads like this are rather pointless. :mad2: :frust: :evilking: :radred: :hot: :nonono:

[Craig]

On topic please. :smash:

[Craig]

What would happen if the people of dream Zanarkand tried to walk right out of it into Mount Gagazet, or whatever neighbouring community it is?


I think you'll find the above quote is the point to this thread, now either give positive feedback or get the hell out.

EDIT: 1. Don't double post.
2. Please use the warn button instead of doing the job of a moderator.
3. Don't tell other posters to 'get the hell out', that constitutes as flaming. -Murder

[thinking of names is hard]

Im confused what the point is in all honesty?
If the feyth dream the world how they remmember it, and if they havent been somewhere in the world so they can't just dream it up out of nowhere-what happens if the people of dream Zanarkand wander somewhere the Feyth hadn't?
Is that your point because im confused?

[Craig]

That is exactly my point.

Imagine, you're a Fayth and you dream up a dream version of your House and it's inhabitants. So then the inhabitants of this House are perfectly happy thinking they are real and not dreams, then one of them decides to open the front door and take a stroll, what would be outside?

Now replace your House with Zanarkand.

[thinking of names is hard]

On topic please. :smash:
Ok ill try my best :)
Well, i havent played the game in ages but...wasnt there a war between Zanarkand and somewhere else (Bevelle?) If thats the case maybe the residents of Zanarkand couldnt go out of the city because it was considered un safe.
To be fair i dont think the game designers thought about this...

[Dragon Ash]

The Fayth controlled the people of dream Zanarkand. They were not real people and therefore had no free will nor the ability to leave the city unless the Fayth chose to make them do so. Tidus and Jecht were the only ones who had begun to really live (I'm not quite sure how but the Fayth boy does say something about this.) They would have been the only ones who could reach the edge of the dream city and find out the dimensions of their small world. However, they were both big Blitzball stars and seemingly had little desire to leave their own little bubbles of fame and glory. One day Jecht must have wandered too far and encountered Sin and the rest is history.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

[boys from the dwarf]

nice one dragon ash now everone agree with his/her theory and close this thread cause it does not need to be explained we can only make theories although dragon ashes theorie is good.so weve found a good theorie now everyone be quiet.

[thinking of names is hard]

nice one dragon ash now everone agree with his/her theory and close this thread cause it does not need to be explained we can only make theories although dragon ashes theorie is good.so weve found a good theorie now everyone be quiet.
sorry....but i disagree...
Tidus was a dream and he had free will. So that implies that everyone else had free will. I have no idea how Jecht was transported to the "real" world (does it say in the game?) but i dont think its because he wandered too far. It is around Tidus' time that sin came into existance however.
As blitzball players...i guess that would mean that they would travel alot, to away games against other cities.

Sorry boys from the dwarf....i know its pointless but i couldnt resist.

[Destai]

Ask Squall of SeeD.

[Craig]

nice one dragon ash now everone agree with his/her theory and close this thread cause it does not need to be explained we can only make theories although dragon ashes theorie is good.so weve found a good theorie now everyone be quiet.

Actually, Dragon Ash's post had nothing to do with the thread topic, because the topic of this thread is "What do you think is outside Dream Zanarkand?"

Dragon Ash's post basically says that Jecht and Tidus were too busy with Blitzball to care about travelling outside of their Zanarkand, she doesn't mention what she thinks is outside.

[boys from the dwarf]

nice one dragon ash now everone agree with his/her theory and close this thread cause it does not need to be explained we can only make theories although dragon ashes theorie is good.so weve found a good theorie now everyone be quiet.
sorry....but i disagree...
Tidus was a dream and he had free will. So that implies that everyone else had free will. I have no idea how Jecht was transported to the "real" world (does it say in the game?) but i dont think its because he wandered too far. It is around Tidus' time that sin came into existance however.
As blitzball players...i guess that would mean that they would travel alot, to away games against other cities.

Sorry boys from the dwarf....i know its pointless but i couldnt resist.
no need to be so modest just cause you disagree.

anyway.when you fight sin he does some realy powerful attack thing in the fmv and it shows a view from space.there are 2 planets one is spira and the other seems to be spiras moon.that moon could be dream zanrkand or something.

[Squall of SeeD]

The Fayth controlled the people of dream Zanarkand. They were not real people and therefore had no free will nor the ability to leave the city unless the Fayth chose to make them do so. Tidus and Jecht were the only ones who had begun to really live (I'm not quite sure how but the Fayth boy does say something about this.) They would have been the only ones who could reach the edge of the dream city and find out the dimensions of their small world. However, they were both big Blitzball stars and seemingly had little desire to leave their own little bubbles of fame and glory. One day Jecht must have wandered too far and encountered Sin and the rest is history.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

Sorry, Ash, but your theory is wrong. This is all explained in the -- sadly -- Japanese only released book entitled "Final Fantasy X: Ultimania Omega Guide."

Everyone there had free will. They are real people. They're Aeons. However, Yu Yevon placed limitations on what they could think.

I'll be more specific. "Dream Zanarkand" is really a bad, bad name for the place and is terribly misleading, and we all should stop using it. "Aeon Zanarkand" would be more fitting, as that's what the place was: A giant Aeon full of little Aeons. It exists somewhere in Spira the same as any other Aeon that is summoned into the world.

What lies beyond its borders is ocean, for certain, but it's not certain how far it's seperated from the Spiran mainland. That's something that wasn't touched upon in the Ultimania Omega Guide, sadly.

Anyway, if any of the residents discovered reason to believe that more existed outside of their city, or began to ponder if there was anything else in the world, Yu Yevon removed those thoughts from their minds. What made Tidus and Jecht so different from the others that the Bahamut Fayth told them that they had become more than dreams is that when they were touched by Sin, it somehow rewired them to where they had become completely autonomous. Yu Yevon could no longer alter their knowledge of what lay outside their city.

It should also be noted that when the summoning ended, it was the equivalent of dying for Tidus. He didn't just simply cease to exist, nor did the others in Aeon Zanarkand, as they're all real people. They were composed of Pyreflies/Spirit Energy the same as any other Aeon (and all life forms contain that very energy). When the summoning stopped, it was the same as dying for them, as -- even though they were as real as anyone in Bevelle or Besaid -- what bound them to life had just been cut off, like turning off a water spicket.


I hope that clarifies things for everyone.

[Craig]

So "Aeon Zanarkand" is just an island somewhere on Spira right?

I always assumed it was on another plane of existense.

[Squall of SeeD]

So "Aeon Zanarkand" is just an island somewhere on Spira right?

I always assumed it was on another plane of existense.

That was an assumption that I think most of us had at first. After reading about what was in the Ultimania Omega Guide, I realized that it made sense for Aeon Zanaraknd to be in Spira. Like all Aeons, it should be brought forth into the world that we see (Spira), and when Tidus' mother died, her spirit went to the Farplane of Spira.

[The Man]

My theory was always that it was like the Truman Show and every time they tried to get out there was something to stop them from being able to do so. But Squall's makes more sense.

Why, though, couldn't the party fly the airship to Dream Zanarkand/Aeon Zanarkand/whatever you want to call it?

[Squall of SeeD]

Why, though, couldn't the party fly the airship to Dream Zanarkand/Aeon Zanarkand/whatever you want to call it?

They could have if they knew where it was. Though I can't imagine what reason they really would have had to go. Defeating Sin was their objective.

[The Man]

well, they could go and laugh at the poor aeon people who were trapped in their summoned state in a summoned city :D

edit: actually, that raises a good question to me. If they had intervened in the summoning by destroying what was being summoned, would Yu Yevon likely have reacted in some manner? Would that have destroyed Sin, even? it might be easier to level a city than to defeat a giant space whale.

[Squall of SeeD]

well, they could go and laugh at the poor aeon people who were trapped in their summoned state in a summoned city :D

edit: actually, that raises a good question to me. If they had intervened in the summoning by destroying what was being summoned, would Yu Yevon likely have reacted in some manner? Would that have destroyed Sin, even? it might be easier to level a city than to defeat a giant space whale.

Well, as you see in the opening FMVs of the game, the city gets leveled by Sin itself, so that doesn't in any way impede Sin's existance. More likely than not, however, Yu Yevon just repaired the damage and removed any memory of what took place from the minds of the survivors.

Sin isn't an Aeon anyway, actually. Sin is just a whole lot of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells.

[The Man]

Well, as you see in the opening FMVs of the game, the city gets leveled by Sin itself, so that doesn't in any way impede Sin's existance. More likely than not, however, Yu Yevon just repaired the damage and removed any memory of what took place from the minds of the survivors.see, that's what I get for not having played the game for a year and a half. You're probably right, of course.


Sin isn't an Aeon anyway, actually. Sin is just a whole lot of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells.how do you reckon? Sin (or at least this version of Sin) began as Braska's Final Aeon; doesn't that make it an aeon, still?

[Big D]

Sin is the 'ultimate summoning', in a way. The most powerful creation of the most powerful summoner - Yu Yevon. He created a beast of malice that he used to wreak his punishment on humanity... or so I see it.

A giant Aeon full of little Aeons. It exists somewhere in Spira the same as any other Aeon that is summoned into the world.I figured it was a non-corporeal 'dream', but with real, autonomous residents. The Fayth always refer to it only as a dream. We know it is a 'summoning' of a kind; that vast column of spirit energy rising out of the Fayth Cluster is where it comes from. From this, you could infer that the dream city is hidden in those dark, swirling clouds above Mount Gagazet; the same clouds that faded away after Yu Yevon's final death.
However, since it takes a colossal amount of energy to make energy into substance, I'd wager that the dream city is exactly that: a dream. It exists in the shared minds of all the Fayth, both in the temples and in the Fayth Cluster. Yu Yevon is the 'powerhouse' behind the dream; without him, the city ends. Bahamut described Yu Yevon as being both awake and asleep, constantly dreaming. This reinforces my belief in what I've postulated. The Fayth always maintain a clear distinction between 'dreams' and 'Aeons'. An Aeon is a manifestation of the summoner's own spirit; the dream city is a kind of 'collective imagining', based on their real city but with notable changes. It's a kind of 'idealised' Zanarkand, never changing, but never stagnant either. No magic, no Aeons, but enough quality of life that the inhabitants never grow bored or curious. It also seems probable that there is a dreamlike 'fog' over the minds of the citizens, such that they never think to expand their horizons.

Sin, the ultimate blend of thought and magic, is able to go effortlessly between the dream city and the real world. If Sin really was flying into the clouds above Gagazet, the Ronso would've noticed because they'd be right on the flight path. Also, they'd have felt or witnessed the effects of the Sin's violent flight through Zanarkand.

Thus do I believe that the dream city is a dream, but no ordinary dream - it is real, just not corporeal; similar to the Aeons, yet notably different.

[Squall of SeeD]

how do you reckon? Sin (or at least this version of Sin) began as Braska's Final Aeon; doesn't that make it an aeon, still?

Not exactly. The Aeons simply serve as a means by which Sin will have a vessel through which to channel Gravity Spells and reform Sin, with his new body (the Aeon) as the focal point of the gathering of Pyreflies. The first time he created Sin, his own body was the focal point. He simply can't generate the Gravity Spells needed to reform Sin without a body, and so he takes the Aeons bodies. Combining his own Spirit Energy with theirs, his will dominates their own.



Sin is the 'ultimate summoning', in a way. The most powerful creation of the most powerful summoner - Yu Yevon. He created a beast of malice that he used to wreak his punishment on humanity... or so I see it.

The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega Guide actually says that Sin is composed of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells. We see evidence of this in-game in two ways:

1) Sin's appearance can be altered at will easily, as it does during Operation: Mi'hen. Go to BlueLaguna.net and download the video entitled "Judgement," or turn on your copy of FFX and go to Luca and watch the same FMV there:

http://bluelaguna.net/movies/ffx/fmvs.php


2) Mika states that Yu Yevon crafts the souls of the dead into Sin:


Rikku
"Wait, gramps! Who's Yu Yevon?"

Mika
"He who crafts the souls of the dead into unholy armor."
"An armor called Sin."

As we know, Pyreflies are Spirit Energy, the souls of the dead.

Also, during the game's ending, Yuna sends the Pyreflies of which Sin and the Aeons were composed to the Farplane. In the Aeons' cases, they just disippitate calmly as their Pyreflies disperse, whereas Sin goes up in a huge explosion of Spirit Energy that carries from Bevelle all the way across the Calm Lands. It was composed of millions of Pyreflies.



I figured it was a non-corporeal 'dream', but with real, autonomous residents. The Fayth always refer to it only as a dream.

We're not given reason to believe that it is different from any other summoning. Just as with Valefor, we have a Fayth (the Fayth Cluster on Gagazet), we have a Summoner (Yu Yevon), and we have that which is summoned (the city). Also, again, it's made clear in the Ultimania Omega Guide for X that it exists somewhere in Spira.



We know it is a 'summoning' of a kind; that vast column of spirit energy rising out of the Fayth Cluster is where it comes from. From this, you could infer that the dream city is hidden in those dark, swirling clouds above Mount Gagazet; the same clouds that faded away after Yu Yevon's final death.

I wouldn't infer that, myself. Remember, there is ocean around Aeon Zanarkand. It lies out at sea somewhere. Also, as you said, it stands to reason that someone would have noticed Sin flying into the clouds above the mountain. For that matter, they would have noticed him pulverizing the hell out of the sky when he attacks the city in the game's beginning.



However, since it takes a colossal amount of energy to make energy into substance, I'd wager that the dream city is exactly that: a dream.

And we have that colossal amount of energy, as well as the skill to use it and the side-effects of processing that much energy. Yuna is amazed that someone is tapping into all those Fayth on Gagazet at once:


Yuna
"Those are fayth."
[She looks at them and gasps]
"A summoning!"
"Someone is using these fayth!"
"Someone is drawing energy from all of them!"

Rikku
"This many?"

Lulu
"Who wields power on this scale, and what could they be calling?"

We're told that Yu Yevon was a Summoner without peer, but he became trapped in his own summoning and become nothing more than a force that existed to summon. He was processing more power than he could handle while holding his own mind intact.

Those Fayth were being used to summon Tidus' Zanarkand:


Fayth
"The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war..."
"They all became fayth--fayth for the summoning."

Tidus
"The summoning... You mean Sin?"

Fayth
"No. I mean this place."
"A Zanarkand that never sleeps."

Tidus
"What?"

Fayth
"The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city."
"They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there."

It's clearly pointed out here that the city and all its people (including Tidus) are being summoned, and through a Fayth by a Summoner. Thus, the city and its people are Aeons.

It's not the people and city themselves are dreams. It's that their memories were processed through their dreams, and Yu Yevon tapped into those to summon Aeon Zanarkand.



Sin, the ultimate blend of thought and magic, is able to go effortlessly between the dream city and the real world.

I mainly want to emphasise here that the city is in Spira, the same as all Aeons that are manifested from Fayth. Again, that's a point made clear in the Ultimania Omega Guide.

[bartuccio3]

My theory on this subject is that the Zanarkand Tidus and Jecht are from is an aeon as many before me have pointed out, everyone inside being an aeon. What I think though, is that this Zanarkand aeon is located right next to its fayths, the reason is that nobody from Spira ever noticed this and that there is a mysterious tornado of water near the cluster of fayth used for Zanarkand and its inhabitants. The tornado could be concealing a microworld, that sin and Yu Yevon could shrink down and enter, but nobody else from spira could, and that people from the Zanarkand aeon could go far enough out to sea that they'd cross into spira but losing energy from the transition between the worlds could knock you out long enough to get lost in the seas of Spira.

[Squall of SeeD]

My theory on this subject is that the Zanarkand Tidus and Jecht are from is an aeon as many before me have pointed out, everyone inside being an aeon. What I think though, is that this Zanarkand aeon is located right next to its fayths, the reason is that nobody from Spira ever noticed this and that there is a mysterious tornado of water near the cluster of fayth used for Zanarkand and its inhabitants. The tornado could be concealing a microworld, that sin and Yu Yevon could shrink down and enter, but nobody else from spira could, and that people from the Zanarkand aeon could go far enough out to sea that they'd cross into spira but losing energy from the transition between the worlds could knock you out long enough to get lost in the seas of Spira.

There's really nothing to suggest that, though It's far more simple just to conclude that it's an Aeon manifested the same as all other Aeons and that it lies out at sea somewhere.

As for the torrent of energy on Mt. Gagazet, that's just the flow of memory from the Fayth that is used to manifest the city.

[Destai]

Told ya he'd know.

[abrojtm]

Assuming that Dream Zanarkand (it is called a dream of the fayth after all. All aeons are dreams of the fayth) is in the middle of the Spiran Ocean doesn't make any sense at all. For one thing, when you are on board the Airship, you can pick any coordinate on the map to explore. Therefore, if Dream Zanarkand was actually in Spira, you could go to it. Also, the Al Bhed have assumingly been exploring the ocean for years. They have machina boats, and gear to be well-equipped for diving and riding throughout the ocean.


Yuna: (narrating) Sacred Mt. Gagazet. Silent guardian of Zanarkand, city of the
dead. When the fayth disappeared, the clouds enshrouding the mountain began to
thin and disperse... ...revealing long-forgotten ruins among its peaks.
-From FFX-2

To me, it was always safe to assume that the Dream Zanarkand existed above these ruins, with a certain amount of water around it.
Perhaps the Dream Zanarkand truly is "flat", and Jecht came into Spira by falling off of the water, after all, it is a fact that Jecht went out on a boating trip and never returned.

[Squall of SeeD]

Assuming that Dream Zanarkand (it is called a dream of the fayth after all. All aeons are dreams of the fayth) is in the middle of the Spiran Ocean doesn't make any sense at all. For one thing, when you are on board the Airship, you can pick any coordinate on the map to explore.

Any coordinate that the developers intended for you to go to, yes.



Therefore, if Dream Zanarkand was actually in Spira, you could go to it.

Unless the developers didn't want you to.



Also, the Al Bhed have assumingly been exploring the ocean for years. They have machina boats, and gear to be well-equipped for diving and riding throughout the ocean.

It's probably a fairly big ocean. In support of this, I'll put a slight spin on what you just said: "The Al Bhed have presumably been exploring the ocean for years. They have Machina boat and gear to be well-equipped for diving and riding throughout the ocean, yet it's only at the beginning of the game that they've discovered the Airship."

For that matter, there was another Airship that hadn't yet been discovered, it being the Celsius and frozen in an ice sheet to the north that we can't visit and don't ever see on Spira's map:

(From Final Fantasy X-2)

Yuna: It's like you're talking to a person!

Buddy: Of course! After all, this ship is one of the Gullwings too,
y'know.

Yuna: She's been around longer than me, huh?

Buddy: Me and her met for the first time right after you brought us
this Calm of yours. I'd caught word that an old airship was at the
bottom of the sea way up in the north. Me and Brother made our way
through a sea of ice. A fog moved in, so thick we couldn't tell west
from east. On top of that we were freezing our blitzballs off. Yep, I
thought we were done for. Then it appeared above us: a single gull,
flying along out of nowhere. As if it had come to save us, right? We
didn't have a lot of options, so me and Brother chased after that gull
with everything we had left. And by some stroke of luck, we found this
ship nestled within the ice.

Buddy: Along with our winged rescuer.

Yuna: Oh! So that's why we're the Gullwings!

It's obviously fallacious to argue that we could visit any place in Spira when we don't see this sea of ice that Buddy speaks of and which obviously existed.

As far as it goes, the Planet is not small in the first place. Sin is huge, but is a tiny speck in comparsion to the Planet as a whole. Check out the video entitled "Gravity Sucks" at BlueLaguna.net to see what I mean:

http://bluelaguna.net/movies/ffx/fmvs.php


If you can't download it, then check out these screenshots, though without the video, it's not as easy to convey the scale:

http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija9fo.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija29bb.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija38ls.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija44yz.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija53ij.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija65qd.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija78ng.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gravija82ls.jpg


If you've got the game, you can always fire it up and go to Luca and watch the Gravity Sucks FMV, as well. Looking at how large that section of the Planet seen in the FMV is, and then taking into account that the Planet has to be a symmetrical sphere, hopefully you can see that the Planet is really damn big.

Also, taking into account Sin's size relative to Bevelle, and then considering how small Sin is compared to that one section of the Planet we get to see, that should convey to you a sense of how small the Spiran mainland is and how much more space there is that we never get to see.



To me, it was always safe to assume that the Dream Zanarkand existed above these ruins, with a certain amount of water around it.

And in all that time, no one would have noticed Sin flying up into the sky directly above Mt. Gagazet? That seems less than likely. For that matter, it's not as though an Aeon has to be manifested near its Fayth. Valefor's Fayth is back in Besaid, but she can be manifested in Zanarkand just fine.



Perhaps the Dream Zanarkand truly is "flat", and Jecht came into Spira by falling off of the water, after all, it is a fact that Jecht went out on a boating trip and never returned.

He ended up in Spira because he came into contact with Sin, the same as Tidus did, only he did so while he was out at sea training instead of doing so in the sky above Aeon Zanarkand.

[Christmas]

Anyway, if any of the residents discovered reason to believe that more existed outside of their city, or began to ponder if there was anything else in the world, Yu Yevon removed those thoughts from their minds. What made Tidus and Jecht so different from the others that the Bahamut Fayth told them that they had become more than dreams is that when they were touched by Sin, it somehow rewired them to where they had become completely autonomous. Yu Yevon could no longer alter their knowledge of what lay outside their city.

You know, when I first played FFVII and seeing I am alway at a city called Midgar, I thought that my world is Midgar and Midgar alone and never thought of what or is there something out of Midgar or can you get out of Midgar.


Sin isn't an Aeon anyway, actually. Sin is just a whole lot of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells.

Considering seeing all his lethal attack are gravity based, it make sense.

[Levian]

Let's just settle things by agreeing that Spira is donut-shaped. That way everybody's a winner. :grinpink: or a loser, depending on how you see it. :greenie: