Not a direct question from the game.

[Future Esthar]

I made some thinking yesterday at night.And I reached to an interesting conclusion.I never thought of it this way before.It´s fantastic.This is not obvious.I ask you to make some thinking.(It don´t take much time).Squaresoft is a genious. :D
The question is too big to put on the poll title.
Here is the question:

Let´s suppose a sorceress decides to perform the time compression magic on the year 1000.The time compression range is from 500 to 2000.She then decides to stop time compression at the year 1500(i.e. 500 years has passed in a referencial common to all eras so 1500 is the time in the referencial of the present in 1000).
So,the world is at the brink of time compression in the range?

[boys from the dwarf]

i voted for 500 to 2000 tell emif im right in spoiler tags so people who look (not including me)before voting ...
EAT HADDOCK MWAHAHA :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout:

[Future Esthar]

That was my first hint when I first thought of it yesterday.But no.You and me seem to forgot that there were 500 years passing since the cast of Time Compression.The range referred is relative to the year 1000,not to all times?The range of time compression will change with time.

[boys from the dwarf]

no offense and not that i have have anything against it but why do you always start these quiz polls?but i like your questions this is the hardest yet though.

[Future Esthar]

Just for "boys from the dwarf" Don´t you remember me?I am Future Esthar.I used to be ignored for posting crazy theories without foundation.One day a mod said I should give proofs to my theories.From that day on I decided to create polls to get people thinking a lot

[Future Esthar]

Please,vote.You don´t understand the treasure knowledge from FF8 you can get if you answer.This has implications you hadn´t thought before.

[MAS82587]

wow thats a thinker

[Future Esthar]

Please try to explain the reasons behind your options.It would be fun.
500 to 1500?.I expect you hadn´t forget about the future.(give the answer tomorrow).
I believe people didn´t understand my question.If this is the case send a reply advicing and I will try to explain it better.

[Sir Bahamut]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what timespan TC would have encompassed given the circumstances in your example?
Because if that is correct, the line of time would be compressed from the year 500 to the year 1500. This is based on the following assumptions:

1) Time compression works by 'pulling the plug' at the point of time where it is cast.
2) Time is compressed equally fast in both past and future directions.
3) Time compression works independent of the line of time(ie. it treats the line of time as something tangible that it can mold).

I'm not sure what you're exact thoughts are though, so I'd be interested in hearing...

[Mercen-X]

The range referred is relative to the year 1000, not to all times. The range of time compression will change with time.500 to 2500. I really can't answer why though.

[Kamiko]

THat is an interesting idea... I like it! Although I'm not sure I fully understand it.... But I think 500-2500...

[Future Esthar]

EDITED BECAUSE THE PREVIOUS AFIRMATION WAS FALSE.
Let me explain the definitions.
Range of time compression:
It´s the set of eras that were compressed,not the time during wich time compression is activated or during which people feels it´s efect.
The sorceress decides to activate it in 1000 and to stop it when 500 years has passed on all eras.In the end of time compression people which were in the year 1000 are on the year 1500 obviously.(People who were in 1345 will be in 1845,etc...).
The question is that the time interval during which she decide to compress time(1000 to 1500) is not the same as the one during which the world is at the brink of time compression.(i.e,the cause is different from the efect).

[Sir Bahamut]

The sorceress decides to activate it in 1000 and to stop it when 500 years has passed on all eras.In the end of time compression people which were in the year 1000 are on the year 1500 obviously.(People who were in 1345 will be in 1845,etc...).

You lost me. Where are you getting it from that TC merely pushes people forward/backwards in time? In fact, compression by definition means the exact opposite. People should be drawn TOWARDS the point where TC was cast, in this case year 1000.

But in fact, there's no way of answering your question because we don't know exactly how fast TC compresses time. We could make an approximation by assuming when Ultimecia activates TC in the game, inside the young Adel, she has been sent back 50 years, making it a total of ca. 70 years away from where Squall and Co are after defeating Adel inside the Lunatic Pandora. Taking into mind that we see effects after like a second, we could approximate the speed as 70 years per second.

Since you're saying that she stops after 500 years has passed in all eras(which would obviously then include her own era from the point where she casts TC), TC must have been working for 500 years at this approximate speed. Let's do some maths, then:

60 seconds in an hour * 60 minutes in an hour = 3600 seconds per. hour.

3600 seconds * 24 hours in a day = 86400 seconds per day.

86400 seconds per day * 356 days a year = 30758400 seconds in a year.

30758400 seconds a year * 500 years = 15379200000 seconds in 500 years.

15379200000 * 70 years per second = 1076544000000 years compressed in 500 years as seen by the one casting it.

So given 500 years with an approximate compression speed, 1076544000000 years would have been compressed in both directions of time, making for a whooping 2153088000000 years compressed all together.

Of course, this mathematical operation is really completely irrelevant, because we don't know really know the first thing about TC, meaning we can't answer your question with any level of certainty. But I suppose to be technical about it, the world wouldn't be on the "brink of time compression" until all of time was compressed except a few thousand years in past and future, which would certainly imply a much wider range than the ones you have given.

[Future Esthar]

Ladies and gentleman,the answer is...
The answer is...
The answer iiiis...
The answer iiiiiiiiis...
The answer iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis...
Trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

500 to 2500 Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(I am serious here)

Congratulations Mercen-X and Kamiko.

I wait for replies and then start explaining this. Don´t lose my next replie.I will show you the wonderful consequences of these.

[Sir Bahamut]

Okay, I really have no idea what you're talking about, so please post your explanation for what you are thinking here soon.

[crazybayman]

Yeah man, please explain the problem better. I still don't get what exactly the hell your talking about.

[Future Esthar]

Sir Bahamut,you completely misunderstood the question.I hadn´t even talking about the speed of time compression.By activation of time compression I mean that all eras were already compressed at one point.It starts at 1000 .Let´s now suppose that someone has a clock in time compression(we consider all eras were already compressed at one point).That clock also marks years.When 500 years has passed on the clock the sorceress will finish Time Compression and the world will get back to normal.But time compression was infinitesimal all this years.At the year 1000 time gets compressed.1000 gets compressed with 500,2000,1300,1400,1450,700,etc...(all in the range of 500-2000).They get all compressed in an instant during the 500 years that passed on the clock.We suppose an absolute clock exists on the time compressed world.1000 is the era where the sorceress lives an performs TC.I beluieve I shouldn´t have mentioned 1500.To know that 500 years pass in a clock inside TC is enough.Forget about the "1500" date.It confuses things a lot.
Tc is activated at 1000 and 500 years pass on a clock inside Tc.That´s enough

[boys from the dwarf]

Just for "boys from the dwarf" Don´t you remember me?I am Future Esthar.I used to be ignored for posting crazy theories without foundation.One day a mod said I should give proofs to my theories.From that day on I decided to create polls to get people thinking a lot
i remember now.your theories were very good apart from the fact that they were unproven.but that was before i joined up and was just looking at the threads you guys have been making.nice to meet you again.wait i get it now.your using this thread to hide one of your theories inside of the poll nice one!

[Sir Bahamut]

They get all compressed in an instant during the 500 years that passed on the clock.

This sounds rather contradictory. It takes 500 years for time to compress in an instant? You'll have to rephrase this.

I see what you're saying with the rest now, except now you need to flesh out your actual question better. Sorry for being slow, but I'm really having problems seeing what you're thinking. You need to explain your thinking simpler and more consisely. It might sound easy in your head, but it's not the same to everyone else...

[Future Esthar]

Thank you bftd. This one is special because i wanna to post a theory and the answer to it (the poll) helps people to see the proof.
This one is for you boys from the dwarfWhat i am showing here is that the world of FF8 is already a time compressed world.
Better,a discrete one in which eras are distributed spatialy.

[Sir Bahamut]

SPOILERS
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If you've been trying to prove that the world of FF8 is already a time compressed world, then you're 100% wrong, and I can prove it easily using this quote:

Rinoa: "There was a sorceress inside me. Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time compression. She's the only one who would be able to exist in such a world. She, and no other."

Since people in FF8 do obvioiusly exist besides Ultimecia, time in FF8 was never compressed. I mean, Ultimecia even tells us that "the world was on the BRINK of time compression". If it was on the brink, it was never completed.

Time in FF8 is NEVER fully compressed, so there's no point trying to 'prove' otherwise. No wonder I couldn't underatand what you were saying...

[Future Esthar]

Sir Bahamut,let me explain:

To explain it better I will break time compression in discrete eras.

Year 1000-Sorceress CAUSE time compression.

Inside time compression:

The symbol % means compressed with

TABLE


Normal flow of time Time compression string

0 500%700%900%1000%2000 already compressed in an instant
1 501%701%901%1001%2001 already compressed in an instant
2 502%702%902%1002%2002 already compressed in an instant
.
.
.
500 1000%1200%1400%%1500%2500 already compressed in an instant

Looking at this we can also see why the answer is 500 to 2500.
The argument is that if the time 1000 gets compressed with the time 500 then the time 500 is also compressed with time 1000 and so not only the time 1000 feels the time compression but also the time 500 which is 500 years before the time the sorceress creates the magic.Isn´t this interesting?
So looking at the table we conclude that the eras from 500 to 2500 feel time compression(independent of the TC string it feels).
To say otherwise is to violate the law of causality.

[Sir Bahamut]

Okay, I've been trying really hard to think that you're making sense and are actually being consistent here, but I guve up.

Firstly, you say she decides to compress time from 500 to 2000 into the year 1000 where she is located. Fair enough. However, in your latest diagram you are showing even more time get compressed which makes no sense. If she compresses time in the range 500 to 2000 she doesn't also compress time in the range of 2000-2500. That would make the range in which she casts TC 500-2500.

Perhaps you are talking about time passing within time compression, but that makes no sense either. Time can't pass in TC because it is time itself that is compressed. If time in the range 500-2000 were compressed into one point, that would mean that year 1000 contained every single event between year 500 and year 2000. Any other events earlier than 500 or after 2000 woulld be completely independent of this.

But I'll give you the beneift of the doubt, and assume that you might have changed since last time you were spouting our your nonsense theories, and give you one more chance to explain everything. And then I mean not just one part of it, or two bits. I want you to explain your example in detail and what conclusions you are reaching from it.

Please, surprise me.

[Future Esthar]

In response to Bahamut:
You are not supposed to see the spoiler.But I forgive you then.Concentrate on my last post which is the explanation you asked.
EDITED:You got it.Time passes inside TC.That´s what I have been trying to explain all this time .

[Sir Bahamut]

The argument is that if the time 1000 gets compressed with the time 500 then the time 500 is also compressed with time 1000 and so not only the time 1000 feels the time compression but also the time 500 which is 500 years before the time the sorceress creates the magic.

Uh, well if you set the range of TC as the years 500-2000 then of course people in the year 500 will feel the effect. That's like saying "If I blow up New York, then the people living on the borders of New York will be effected". The conclusion you're reaching was a given already in your opening.

Because as far as I see it, you started off by saying "lets assume a sorceress compresses time in the range 500-2000". Now, after reaching a conclusion which was set in the argument itself, you somehow draw the conclusion that time 500 years AHEAD of the set range will be effected, which doesn't make sense at all. If she compresses time in the range 500-2000, then she compresses time in the range 500-2000, not 500-2500!!

And don't talk about the law of causality as if you are presenting some scientific proof here, because you're not. You're just spouting out nonsense which doesn't make any sense at all.

[boys from the dwarf]

Thank you bftd. This one is special because i wanna to post a theory and the answer to it (the poll) helps people to see the proof.
This one is for you boys from the dwarfWhat i am showing here is that the world of FF8 is already a time compressed world.
Better,a discrete one in which eras are distributed spatialy.
that is a good theorie and maybe most of the events that happen in normal peoples like small or big are due to time compression and history and future events are unoticeabbly being altered.
what do you think of that one

[Sir Bahamut]

You got it.Time passes inside TC.That´s what I have been trying to explain all this time .

Firstly, why didn't you just phrase it like that all along, for Gods sake.

Secondly, you're wrong. TC works by compressing time together, and by definition, time cannot pass beyond the regions of TC, or inside it for that matter. Why? Because TC crunches everything into ONE event in time. All events that started exactly year 500 and all unto year 2000 would be in one single event in time. If everything is in one place, it cannot move. Time does not pass within the region of TC per definition.

Saying otherwise is violating pure logic.

[Future Esthar]

You are mixing cause and effect.They are not the same thing.
Despite the sorceress create the magic at 1000 it can be feeled in 500.
From now I think you agree with me on this subject.It looked circular reasoning to you but i think this is not too evident to most of the people who play FF8.
Concerning your last subject,I explained that time passes on TC so 2000 will become 2500.

Well,Squall moves through time compression.Speed =distance/time.

EDIT: Please edit your posts instead of double posting. -Murder

[Sir Bahamut]

Well,Squall moves through time compression.Speed =distance/time.

Firstly, Squall moves through what will end up as a time compressed world. Time doesn't compress in an instant, that much is made evident in the game. But time compression has effects that spread out at a finite speed, which is what Squall and co utilize. So my point remains, that in a fully compressed world, time does not pass.

As for the rest, I give up arguing with you. You're completely neglecting all my points, and not making any sense with your own.

[Future Esthar]

Well,wether time passes or not that´s not relevant for the theory I will present.
If a sorceress activates time compression at 1000 and the range of times THAT GETS compressed is from 500 to 2000 then people will feel the effect of time compression at least from 500 to 1000 (past of 1000) and from 1000 to 2000(future of 1000).
I think you agreed with me in one of your posts(the one in wich you talk about New York).
But I just wanna to ask you some questions.
Sorceress Ultimecia uses Ellone to send her consciousness to a further past.
Let´s call this era A.This era was obviously before Adel kidnapps Rinoa.She need to do this to compress time.Do you think era A belongs to the set of times that she wanna to compress? Let´s call the era in wich Squall had defeated Adel era B.Do you think that belongs as well to the set?And what about the eras between them?Give me your opinion.

[Sir Bahamut]

I believe that Ultimecia wanted to compress ALL of time, so yes, all those events would be in the 'set'.

As for your theory, I can agree fine with everything you seem to have ended up with now quite fine(assuming I understand you correctly). All I didn't see was how the heck you reached the assumption that the year 2500 will also feel the effect...

[Future Esthar]

That´s irrelevant anyway.It´s based on the assumption that time passes on TC.
But forget it.
I think I remember the game saying she wanna to compress all of time.That´s great.
Now I will reveal the purpose of this thread.
If all of time were compressed (the magic was executed at some time,no matter)
it means all eras feels it and not only era B (see the meaning some replies earlier).
No matter when Ultimecia activates the magic THE WORLD OF FF8 WAS ALLWAYS A TIME COMPRESSED WORLD.
Ít didn´t matter if time compression is a progressive process because:
1-Let me give an example.
Lets suppose we have two eras C and D.And two instances of the progression of time compression a and b.b>a and D>C.b is the instance where time is fully compressed.
WE also have D-C =b-a.
Eras C and D will evolve with time.When time goes from a to b Era D will not be D anymore but will be an era E.
Should we conclude that time compression will not be feel on era D?
No,because era C will become era D.Of course there isn´t any instance greater than b because time stops but i showed it didn´t matter because there are always eras before others.One can wonder though if this means that there is many states of present .One in which era D feels time compression and another in which it didn´t feel.But...
2-It didn´t make sense to say that all eras get compressed to a "particular time"
If all times get compressed it means they get compressed without a time referencial.
They just get compressed.If all times get compressed (sucked like a whirl of water) to 1000 they also get compressed to 1630 or any other time.And...
3-You can´t compress an infinite time line in a finite time line.
If you take a line segment and reduce it you can do it in a finite time.
But not an infinite line.
So I conclude there isn´t any progression in time compression.
Ultimecia just compress time instantly.It was a magical and instantaneous change of state.

[Sir Bahamut]

If all of time were compressed (the magic was executed at some time,no matter) it means all eras feels it and not only era B (see the meaning some replies earlier).

Definitely.


1-Let me give an example.
Lets suppose we have two eras C and D.And two instances of the progression of time compression a and b.b>a and D>C.b is the instance where time is fully compressed.
WE also have D-C =b-a.
Eras C and D will evolve with time.When time goes from a to b Era D will not be D anymore but will be an era E.
Should we conclude that time compression will not be feel on era D?
No,because era C will become era D.Of course there isn´t any instance greater than b because time stops but i showed it didn´t matter because there are always eras before others.One can wonder though if this means that there is many states of present .One in which era D feels time compression and another in which it didn´t feel.But...

Not entirely sure I understand everything you're saying here. Yes, C will become D, but era D will always be era D. Well, I guess that depends if you think TC limits itself to era D exactly, or if you're talking about all of time being compressed.

And it also depends on whether or not you think time is static or dynamic. Too many "if's" for me to be able to understand your conclusions, so you'll have to go into greater detail here.


2-It didn´t make sense to say that all eras get compressed to a "particular time"
If all times get compressed it means they get compressed without a time referencial.
They just get compressed.If all times get compressed (sucked like a whirl of water) to 1000 they also get compressed to 1630 or any other time.And...

If the line of time were infinite then it wouldn't make sense, true. If it's finite, it does make sense to have a referencial point(namely the point where it is cast) all until time is fully compressed, because then the referencial point would be the same as every other point on the entire line of time.


3-You can´t compress an infinite time line in a finite time line.
If you take a line segment and reduce it you can do it in a finite time.
But not an infinite line.

True. Although, I wonder what would happen if TC moved at an infinitely fast speed? Would the infinities cancel each other out making it possible? Too tired to think it through now though...

Of course we don't know if the line of time is finite or infinite so no point using that factor in arguments.


So I conclude there isn´t any progression in time compression.
Ultimecia just compress time instantly.It was a magical and instantaneous change of state.

I'm sorry, but your conclusion is impossible. As I quoted earlier, we are told that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC, but if TC was an instantanous event, it would be impossible to play the game, as Squall and co would be inside a fully time compressed world already from the start of the game.

Since this is obviously not the case, we can conclude that TC works at a finite speed, and is never fully completed.

[Future Esthar]

Sir Bahamut,I am not saying that era C was on instance a and D on instance b.
I am saying this:

a C%D
b D%E fully compressed
b D%E fully compressed
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.
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If the line of time were infinite then it wouldn't make sense, true. If it's finite, it does make sense to have a referencial point(namely the point where it is cast) all until time is fully compressed, because then the referencial point would be the same as every other point on the entire line of time.

No because if Tc is cast at J and if J is compressed with K then K is compressed with J so it´s relevant where time is sucked.
This is not the same as to reduce a line segment to a point because here you are not performing "space compression".
In Space compression all coordinates become compressed at one .But this is not what happens when you reduce a line segment.You are just deleting the points whose coordenate are not a certain(x,y).
In the Time compression context this would be equivalent to delete all times with the exception of the one in which TC is cast.That way time would be static forever(past and future).Of course this is not Time Compression.In TC all eras are there.

And finally:
To create TC instantaneously is the same as to made it progress with infinite velocity isnt it?

Since this is obviously not the case, we can conclude that TC works at a finite speed, and is never fully completed.
Sad Ultimecia hadn´t realized she can´t complete TC with finite speed.She is really stupid.(Or maybe not).

I'm sorry, but your conclusion is impossible. As I quoted earlier, we are told that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC, but if TC was an instantanous event, it would be impossible to play the game, as Squall and co would be inside a fully time compressed world already from the start of the game.



This is exactly the final conclusion.
Axiom1-Ultimecia wanna to compress all time.
Conclusion1-FF8 world is time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion)-Seed can also live on TC along with human beings.

Axiom2-Only Ultimecia can live on TC
Conclusion1:FF8 world is not time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion 1):Ultimecia cannot compress all times

So either Axiom 1 is thruth or Axiom 2 is thruth .Not both.

[Sir Bahamut]

No because if Tc is cast at J and if J is compressed with K then K is compressed with J so it´s relevant where time is sucked.

That's what I said: in a finite line, having a referencial point(namely the point where TC is cast) is relevant, ALL UNTIL TC IS COMPLETE because when that happens, the referencial point is the same point as every other point in time.

As for the rest of this point, you must have misunderstood me, or gotten confused. I have always said that TC combines all era into one era, not that you delete all times but the referencial point. And no one brought up "space compression" either...


To create TC instantaneously is the same as to made it progress with infinite velocity isnt it?

Yes.


Sad Ultimecia hadn´t realized she can´t complete TC with finite speed.She is really stupid.(Or maybe not).

She CAN complete it if the line of time is a finite line. However, since we don't know if it is finite or infinite, and there's no way of knowing either, it's pointless to call her stupid or not.


This is exactly the final conclusion.
Axiom1-Ultimecia wanna to compress all time.
Conclusion1-FF8 world is time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion)-Seed can also live on TC along with human beings.

Axiom2-Only Ultimecia can live on TC
Conclusion1:FF8 world is not time compressed.
Conclusion2(or conclusion of conclusion 1):Ultimecia cannot compress all times

So either Axiom 1 is thruth or Axiom 2 is thruth .Not both.

Well, clearly Axiom 2 is correct here, since the game tells us quite specifically that no one but Ultimecia can live in TC. But your conclusion 2 in Axiom 2 isn't correct. The correct conclusion would be:

Ultimecia is not able to compress time.

[Future Esthar]

Wheter there is a referencial point or not to TC that´s a matter of interpretation.
But that´s irrelevant for the matter.
Sir Bahamut,the game says Ulti wanna to compress all times.What´s your definition of "all times"?A finite line or infinite?

[Sir Bahamut]

"All times" is simply all of the line of time, regardless of it's length.

[Squall of SeeD]

I just want to hop in here and point out that all time definitely didn't compress at once. Aside from the fact that people other than Ultimecia were still present when SeeD confronts her, she says herself that it wasn't finished. "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression." The world was on the brink, not already there. She was sitting around waiting for it to finish.

[Sir Bahamut]

Thanks, Squall, but I already mentioned that fact more than once. ;)

[Squall of SeeD]

Thanks, Squall, but I already mentioned that fact more than once. ;)

Yeah, but the last couple of times you only mentioned that others aside from Ultimecia were still present and I wasn't sure if Future had noted the point about Ultimecia's statement earlier. I just wanted to jump in there to emphasise it. Sorry if it looked like I didn't think you'd make note of that. I know you wouldn't forget that point.

[Future Esthar]

Thanks,Squall of SeeD.We should conclude then that the lenght of time compression is finite.It made point 2 and 3 irrelevant.
But look at point 1.
I already explained that it didn´t matter .
The set of time compressed eras should encompass the era in which she starts time conmpression (which is obviously before Adell chase Ellone.Better,before Adel was possessed.) ,the era in which Squall had defeated Adel and Ulti´s time.Let´s call them era A,B and C respectively.
While the process of compression is happening,time passes equaly on these three eras (and the ones in between).Lets say when she completed the process C is not C anymore but evolved to a later era D in which D-C=C-B. You can argue that time was never fully compressed in C but in D.True and wrong.By that time B evolved to B+(D-C)=B+(C-B)=C so it was fully compressed.
This seems like a paradox.Time is fully compressed at C and not.
The paradox is solved if we consider that there are diferent states of
present.
But a state can´t evolve continualy to another.And the game implies that time compression is compression of different eras from the same state of present(the word "states of present" in the tutorial refers to different eras as present so the meaning is different from mine).
If the range of times compressed at the beggining of TC is from a to b and the time to complete the compression is t then the range of times fully compressed is from a+t to b+t.
Considering the time it takes between Squall defeating Adel and reaching Ulti´s time and a little more (the sorceress is not that patient of course.She wanna to compress time quickly) I can say t is not 17 years but a few hours.
So time is fully compressed atleast between [era A and a few hours] and [era C and a few hours] .Of course the broad of time compression can not be more little than that but it can be bigger.