about the origin of ultimecia (big big spoiler)

[Aurora_sword]

i have heard someone in another forum talking about ultimecia being rinoa in the future ad griever being squall, which has become her knight. this makes so much sense and i was totally freaked out/shocked/pumped/excited. what do you guys think abouit this?

[Xaven]

I havn't heard of the Griever-Squall thing, but the rest is called the R=U theory. I'm not big on it, but others are.

[Aurora_sword]

and i just heard of it a few days ago...
makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

[GooeyToast]

Meh.....sort of.

[Aurora_sword]

however
what is the reason that rinoa turned evil?

[GooeyToast]

Who knows...

[Aurora_sword]

we don't even know if its true or not...
i don't like mysteries being unsolved, they should make a sequel or a prequel

[GooeyToast]

Maybe in 10 years

[Aurora_sword]

in 10 years people would forget ff8 even existed... =_=

5 years at the very most

[GooeyToast]

It's been 8 yrs with FF7, and people havent forgotten it, have they?

[Aurora_sword]

10 is a bigger number than ten, and ff8 was released at 1999
2005-1999=6. 10+6=16
16 years is double

[GooeyToast]

They aren't making a remake.


10 is a bigger number than ten,

Really? Is that so?

[Aurora_sword]

...sorry i mean 8
10 is a bigger number than eight

[GooeyToast]

Lol

[Squall of SeeD]

The matter of Rinoa being Ultimecia is really baseless. It requires the assumption that Witches are immortal, something that the game doesn't suggest in the first place. For any points that are used to argue in favor of the concept, there's an in-game indication or a far more simple explanation that can be reasoned logically that has nothing to do with the concept.

For example, people often cite Ultimecia's castle being near/facing the flower field where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet as being evidence of this. However, there are fresh bodies of dead White SeeDs littering the beach at the Orphanage, which would suggest that Ultimecia's castle was there for her to take out the last SeeDs to settle her grudge with them before casting Time Compression.

As for Griever being Squall, that's directly contradicted by the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia created Griever on the spot during that fight from the feelings of her opponents. Griever was, in Squall's mind, the most powerful of beings.

[Future Esthar]

Who is Ultimecia?
I will show she was two different womans in the game.
First,we know she dresses in red.
Second,she has an organ on her castle.Persons who play organ also play piano.The instruments are different but the technic is the same.
She is the queen of the castle.
Looking at the art gallery there was a picture of a woman named XERAMPELINAE(red clothes).There is a picture about three guys named VIGIL(watchman) and another named VENUS(love).
These were the only pictures about persons and love.
All the paintings tells us about medieval events.When we look at the VIGIL painting we see that they were on that part of the castel before the boss Krysta. The part with the falling candlelight.
Looking at these mens we picture a resemblance with Laguna,Kyros and Ward.
They are always watching.First they watch Ellone talking with Raine.
After they watch the conversation between Odine and his assistants.
One of their missions was to patrol(watch over).
Now considering Ulti wanna her servants to paint her (as any blue-blood queen wanna) we have a picture of her named XERAMPELINAE.
The other pictures must be events on Ulti´s time also.
What is the only other persion on the game which dresses in red ,has short black hair,plays piano and was in love with Laguna?
It is not other than Julia Heartilly.
The identity of the other woman?
I was about to tell you in the topic "Wonder how people didn´t notice it" somewhere at the fourth page.And maybe will.

So Ulti=Julia=????
I will reveal on another topic.

[Aurora_sword]

...your post isn't finished tehre
are you suggesting that she is julia????

[Christmas]

Who is Ultimecia?
I will show she was two different womans in the game.
First,we know she dresses in red.
Second,she has an organ on her castle.Persons who play organ also play piano.The instruments are different but the technic is the same.


I will also quote you an example.
First, Cloud is blonde and so is Tidus
Second, They both use a sword but different kind of swords since Cloud's sword is much bigger but the technic is the same.
Are they the same person?




Looking at these mens we picture a resemblance with Laguna,Kyros and Ward.
They are always watching.First they watch Ellone talking with Raine.
After they watch the conversation between Odine and his assistants.
One of their missions was to patrol(watch over).

Squall is also alway watching. Squall watch Rinoa telling Zell to make her a ring. Squall watch Rinoa getting caught by Edea and hesitate to take action. and etc....

Off Topic: You seem to like to take notice of small minor UNIMPORTANT stuff and make big craps out of it.

[crazybayman]

Who is Ultimecia?
I will show she was two different womans in the game.
First,we know she dresses in red.
Second,she has an organ on her castle.Persons who play organ also play piano.The instruments are different but the technic is the same.
She is the queen of the castle.
Looking at the art gallery there was a picture of a woman named XERAMPELINAE(red clothes).There is a picture about three guys named VIGIL(watchman) and another named VENUS(love).
These were the only pictures about persons and love.
All the paintings tells us about medieval events.When we look at the VIGIL painting we see that they were on that part of the castel before the boss Krysta. The part with the falling candlelight.
Looking at these mens we picture a resemblance with Laguna,Kyros and Ward.
They are always watching.First they watch Ellone talking with Raine.
After they watch the conversation between Odine and his assistants.
One of their missions was to patrol(watch over).

Here we go again......... :rolleyes2

[Destai]

Future Esthar reminds me of that astronomist from the south park episode with the aliens who comes up with random words and traces them back to some sort of relevance.

[Christmas]

There was an earlier thread that discuss this topic and someone post an link to a website which give a in depth anaylsis on this theory until the last line of the page was something like this:

"So just who is Ultimecia? We decided to ask the big boys in japan and they reply, No, Rinoa is not Ultimecia. What an easy way to end the debate"

The "big boys" should refer to the square's staff.
Do anyone know or remember this website? It also have other FF series analysis.

[Aurora_sword]

although...the pictures in the castle must have some meanings...

[boys from the dwarf]

it is a half decent theory but it isnt explained in the game so is untrue.

[GooeyToast]

Not enough proof to justify the theory,

[BG-57]

although...the pictures in the castle must have some meanings...

They needed words that had requisite numbers of I's, V's, and X's, and Latin was the best way to go. The pictures then had to match the words.

Although the messenger painting may be an oblique reference to Diablos, since he has an attack named Dark Messenger.

[Winter Nights]

So Ulti=Julia=????
I will reveal on another topic.

Jesus Christ, someone kill this guy.

Anyway, I remember reading an article on the matter where a Square rep was stating that while they loved the fact that their fans were looking that deep into the game, the R=U theory was not true. Really need to find that article again. Been a couple of years.

[Squall of SeeD]

So Ulti=Julia=????
I will reveal on another topic.

Jesus Christ, someone kill this guy.

Anyway, I remember reading an article on the matter where a Square rep was stating that while they loved the fact that their fans were looking that deep into the game, the R=U theory was not true. Really need to find that article again. Been a couple of years.

I know the one you're speaking of, but in all fairness, there's really nothing to prove that it was someone from Square who said that. I think it's best to leave that particular matter out of refuting the theory.

[Winter Nights]

You mean that one fansite? Nah.. Wasn't talking about that. It was actually in a gaming mag a few years back. Someone asked that in their letters section and the mag got an answer from Square. For the life of me I can't remember which one it was.. Have to go through my back issues to find it.

Yeah, I never take anyone that says "I have a friend/cousin/boyfriend/brother/whatever that works for such and such game company" for face value. The internet breeds lies for the sake of being popular amongst people you will never meet.

[GooeyToast]

The internet breeds lies for the sake of being popular amongst people you will never meet.

That is an awesome quote, I must say.


~Keep it gooey~

[Destai]

The internet breeds lies for the sake of being popular amongst people you will never meet.

That is an awesome quote, I must say.


~Keep it gooey~I agree.

[Xaven]

The internet breeds lies for the sake of being popular amongst people you will never meet.

That is an awesome quote, I must say.


~Keep it gooey~I agree.
:<3:

[Winter Nights]

The internet breeds lies for the sake of being popular amongst people you will never meet.

That is an awesome quote, I must say.


~Keep it gooey~I agree.
:<3:

I think I have fans. :p

[Future Esthar]

I was able to show better evidence that Ulti=Julia than anyone was on showing Ulti=Rinoa. :mad2:
Ulti=Julia has better evidence. :mad2:

[Winter Nights]

I'm sorry, but making up details that aren't mentioned anywhere in the game, then calling them theories, isn't evidence.

[Future Esthar]

You didn´t read the entire subject or you would see that every thing required to prove it was mentioned in the game.
The paintings were there,the organ was there,the red clothe on Ulti was there,etc...

[Winter Nights]

You didn´t read the entire subject or you would see that every thing required to prove it was mentioned in the game.
The paintings were there,the organ was there,the red clothe on Ulti was there,etc...

I did read it. And you are looking WAY too deep into things that are NEVER stated.

[Future Esthar]

It was never stated half of the things implied in the Rinoa=Ulti theory.
And the only set of pictures you had to prove this was a picture of Rinoa and Ulti.
And they look too different.
This was not the case in the Julia=Ulti theory.
The Xerampelinae picture look a lot like Julia.
And i think i was convincing when I show the picture was from Ulti.

[Winter Nights]

I think the R=U theory is looking way too into the game, as well. There is no reason to think that the story goes beyond what is actually stated.

[Future Esthar]

Good.
Can I ask you questions if I get some problem on my pc?

[Winter Nights]

If you catch me on messenger, that means I'm not at work. Then, it would be fine.

Making me worker harder than I want at work would be bad. :p

[Squall of SeeD]

You mean that one fansite? Nah.. Wasn't talking about that. It was actually in a gaming mag a few years back. Someone asked that in their letters section and the mag got an answer from Square. For the life of me I can't remember which one it was.. Have to go through my back issues to find it.

Wait, what? Are we talking about actual proof here? Find that magazine, Autumn. I will buy it from you. Seriously.

[Winter Nights]

Yeah, I mean actual proof. I have alot of backlogs of different gaming mags, so I will have a look through them and see if I can find it.

[Squall of SeeD]

Yeah, I mean actual proof. I have alot of backlogs of different gaming mags, so I will have a look through them and see if I can find it.

Please do! That's something I would definitely be willing to purchase from you.

[PhoenixAsh]

I couldn't be bothered to read the thread after Future Esthar's theory came up (no offense, I just wanted to focus on R=U), so if I repeat I apologise.

R=U is a fairly good theory if you allow yourself to be imaginative outside the game. If you accept that you may interpret what you want outside the plot as long as it doesn't contradict things and has at least plausable reasoning, then I like it. Unfortunately one of the main reasons for supporting R=U is discounted in the Japanese version (I'm not sure if it is in the English), that being Griever. In the Japan version he is definitely from Squall's mind, in the English version it is only hinted as such (I may be wrong on that). As I find this explanation pretty lame for many reasons I don't worry much about it, though it possibly indicates Square's view on the theory.

The location of Ulti's castle is an indication, though not one I've particularly cared about, I suppose thinking about it it makes sense, but I wouldn't put much faith in it.

There is a LOT of foreshadowing in the game about things, such as Rinoa talking about Squall's sword piercing her heart or something, and talk about sorceresses going bad without a knight.

I forget what else, but theres a lot... I might come back and add, but for brief detail, R=U has back-up, but neither way is proven. Squall is NOT required to be Griever in the theory though (I never thought he was).

[Big D]

As for Griever being Squall, that's directly contradicted by the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia created Griever on the spot during that fight from the feelings of her opponents. Griever was, in Squall's mind, the most powerful of beings.I disagree that Ultimecia simply made Griever on the spot. All we're told in the game - by Scanning Griever - is that Griever is, "in Squall's mind the most powerful GF". This could simply imply that Squall believes Griever to be the most powerful GF. The fact that Squall has Griever icons on his necklace, ring and gublade suggest that it's more than just a made-up imaginary friend. Squall doesn't strike me as the type to simply invent a make-believe plaything and then waste time and money having metal tokens cast and manufactured for his own use. Squall's minor idolisation of Griever suggests, to me, that Griever is a being that is known to some people in the FFVIII world - like an obscure legend of a mighty lion-god or something. Not everyone's familiar with the story, hence why he had to explain it to Rinoa, but it's obviously familiar to more than a few since there's apparently enough demand to warrant the production of Griever paraphernalia - jewellry, gunblades, gunblade cases, gunblade handle tokens.

I reckon that Griever is 'the most powerful GF', one that's always existed and been known in the FFVIII world, but was finally caught and used by Ultimecia. It just makes a kind of literary sense for Squall ultimately to confront the very beast that he's always admired and always believed supreme - it means he really *is* in for a tough fight, not just another Sorceress with just another GF.

[Sir Bahamut]

You make vaid points, Big D, but the japanese version makes it pretty clear:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

The implications are that it is their feelings that she is using against them, not simply a GF. Although I agree that Griever is(was) probably a legend from the past, I think it is pretty clear that Ultimecia never actually caught this legendary GF. Instead, she fashioned one based on Squalls image of him.

As for the Square denying the theory in a magasine, it sounds rather suspect, but if it's real, that'd be great.

[Masamune·1600]

As for Griever being Squall, that's directly contradicted by the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia created Griever on the spot during that fight from the feelings of her opponents. Griever was, in Squall's mind, the most powerful of beings.I disagree that Ultimecia simply made Griever on the spot. All we're told in the game - by Scanning Griever - is that Griever is, "in Squall's mind the most powerful GF". This could simply imply that Squall believes Griever to be the most powerful GF. The fact that Squall has Griever icons on his necklace, ring and gublade suggest that it's more than just a made-up imaginary friend. Squall doesn't strike me as the type to simply invent a make-believe plaything and then waste time and money having metal tokens cast and manufactured for his own use. Squall's minor idolisation of Griever suggests, to me, that Griever is a being that is known to some people in the FFVIII world - like an obscure legend of a mighty lion-god or something. Not everyone's familiar with the story, hence why he had to explain it to Rinoa, but it's obviously familiar to more than a few since there's apparently enough demand to warrant the production of Griever paraphernalia - jewellry, gunblades, gunblade cases, gunblade handle tokens.

I reckon that Griever is 'the most powerful GF', one that's always existed and been known in the FFVIII world, but was finally caught and used by Ultimecia. It just makes a kind of literary sense for Squall ultimately to confront the very beast that he's always admired and always believed supreme - it means he really *is* in for a tough fight, not just another Sorceress with just another GF.

Actually, though, the game directly addresses the question of Griever being directly Drawn from Squall's mind. Ultimecia tells Squall that Griever is being Drawn from his thoughts. The direct Japanese dialogue drives this home with heightened clarity.


Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

In this context, the scan data can be interpreted to support the supposition that Griever was "created on the spot." Griever, in Squall's mind, was the ultimate GF, and, using those thoughts as a template, Ultimecia brought forth a GF to battle the party. This view makes even more sense in light of the fact that Ultimecia can blow away stocked spells, suggestive of her ability to affect memory.

It's also important to note what Griever actually meant to Squall. On Disc 2, when Rinoa questions Squall about his ring, he notes that lions (like the one on the ring) are known for their great strength and pride. As these are qualities that are very important to Squall, I would personally view Griever as more akin to an ideal, than simply a known legend.


Rinoa: You know something, I couldn't afford to fall off that cliff and
die. I have something very important that belongs to you. I can't die
until I give it back to you, right? Zell gave it to me, see? I've been
holding onto it.

Squall: (I'm gonna kill him...) That's my favorite ring. You'd better
give it back.

Rinoa: I'm sure it is. It's a cool-looking ring. What's this monster on
it anyway?

Squall: It's not a monster. It's a lion. Lions are known for their
great strength and pride.

Rinoa: Hmm...great strength...pride... ...Kinda like you, Squall.

Squall: I wish...

Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Admittedly, we know that Squall has some knowledge of 'legendary Guardian Forces.' After all, when encountering Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center....


Bahamut: I am... Bahamut.
Squall: The legendary GF....

This is not enough, however, to sway me from the belief that Griever was, in fact, directly Drawn from Squall's mind. It's certainly possible (maybe even probable) that a GF called Griever existed in the world of FFVIII. However, the Griever utilized by Ultimecia was, most likely, a reproduction of this being based on the parameters for Griever that existed within Squall.

EDIT: Sorry for reusing some of your ideas, Sir Bahamut. I guess you responded while I was typing this post.

[Squall of SeeD]

No, Big D. In the Japanese Version, Ultimecia clearly creates him on the spot, saying that she will take the party's most powerful feelings and force them to face them. It's something along the lines of "From your feelings, I shall make the most powerful of things." That translation's not exact, so bear with me.

She then says something along the lines of "The greater they are, the greater shall be your suffering! Fufu!"

The German Version is also similar in this respect:

"What is the absolute power for you? ["For you" meaning "in your opinion"]
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!"

There is a greaaaat degree of variance between the English, German, and Japanese lines, with the German lines being most similar to those in Japanese.

I don't have access to all of the Japanese lines for the game, but I do have a complete German translation for the entire battle sequence with Ultimecia and Griever. Compare it to the English Version:

-English-

::Ultimecia gets pounded on for a while::

"The most powerful GF..."
"...You shall..."
"...SUFFER...!"
"HAHAHA..."

::Griever comes and it gets pounded on for a while::

"The GF's true power...
Allow me...
To show you...!
Griever! Make them bleed!"

::Ultimecia prepares to Junction with Griever::

"I shall junction myself unto Griever!"

::The Junctioned Ultimecia with Griever is defeated::

"Rghaah..."

::Ultimecia rises up with her full power from having absorbed the power of the other Witches, absorbing the universe even as we speak; she then fights SeeD::

"I am Ultimecia.
Time shall compress...
...All existence denied.
Reflect on your...
Childhood...
Your sensation...
Your words...
Your emotions...
Time...
It will not wait...
No matter...
...how hard you hold on.
It escapes you.
And..."


(Translated courtesy of Eckesachs)
-German Version-

::Ultimecia gets pounded on for a while::

"What is the absolute power for you?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!"

::Griever comes and it gets pounded on for a while::

"Memory loss?
...that is what you fear?
Show them your true power!
Show them, Griever!"

::Ultimecia prepares to Junction with Griever::

"The game is over!
I will junction Griever!"

::The Junctioned Ultimecia with Griever is defeated::

"Ughhh..."

::Ultimecia rises up with her full power from having absorbed the power of the other Witches, absorbing the universe even as we speak; she then fights SeeD::

"I am Ultimecia.
I merge time.
I deny existence.
Memories...
from far childhood.
Those sensations...
Those words...
Those feelings...
By growing up,
much is lost.
Time does not wait.
You keep hold of it,
and yet it melts away.
But now..."


Edit: Damn, we're all leaping to the attack. You guys got Posts in before me.

[Christmas]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

[Big D]

Ah, thanks for the details of the Japanese script. That's very handy and enlightening. While it's now clear that Griever can't have been a previously-existent GF, I'd say that there still must've been some old 'Griever legend', like Sir Bahamut says. This does, however, effectively debunk the old "R=U" support evidence which maintained that, since Ultimecia owns Squall's favourite GF, then there "must" be some kind of connection.

I speak German, so the German script would be interesting to see sometime:)

Edit: Unknowns, that's exactly what I've always believed! It's actually supported by dialogue in the game, too. Onboard the Ragnarok in disc four, Rinoa talks about how simply defeating Ultimecia won't change the fact that she'll still be born. She discusses how her own powers will be passed on through the generations, eventually reaching Ultimecia. "What does it mean to inherit Ultimecia's power?" she asks.

[disapointedchild]

Wow, this topic seems to come up a lot, and usually doesnt end up good.
Look everybody has there own opinions, and truthfully nobody can 100% prove either theory correct.

I think its just best leave this touchy subject alone.

As for my opinion, I dont believe R=U, because there is no concrete
proof.

[liamo]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

[Takara]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

She did, in a car accident. I believe Rinoa was 5 when it happened too, though I might be off on Rinoa's age.

[liamo]

no your spot on so thats another useless theory down the drain

[Christmas]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

Read the two threads "A very important subtle poll " and " Wonder how people didn´t notice this" and you will understand why.

[crazybayman]

For example, people often cite Ultimecia's castle being near/facing the flower field where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet as being evidence of this. However, there are fresh bodies of dead White SeeDs littering the beach at the Orphanage, which would suggest that Ultimecia's castle was there for her to take out the last SeeDs to settle her grudge with them before casting Time Compression.
Pardon me for asking......

but how does that prove that Rinoa ISN'T Ultimecia? I'm not saying I believe the R=U theory, but just because the castle was there for her to kill the last Seeds, why does that mean that Rinoa doesn't somehow become twisted and evil, and turn into Ultimecia, and proceed to take out the last Seeds?

[Craig]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

I'm going to go with that. If what Autumn Rain says is true, then Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

[crazybayman]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

I'm going to go with that. If what Autumn Rain says is true, then Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

Yes that does make sense.

[Fire_Emblem776]

the world will never know

on the bright side

I saved a lot of monry by switching to Geico! Hehe suckers!

[Squall of SeeD]

For example, people often cite Ultimecia's castle being near/facing the flower field where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet as being evidence of this. However, there are fresh bodies of dead White SeeDs littering the beach at the Orphanage, which would suggest that Ultimecia's castle was there for her to take out the last SeeDs to settle her grudge with them before casting Time Compression.
Pardon me for asking......

but how does that prove that Rinoa ISN'T Ultimecia? I'm not saying I believe the R=U theory, but just because the castle was there for her to kill the last Seeds, why does that mean that Rinoa doesn't somehow become twisted and evil, and turn into Ultimecia, and proceed to take out the last Seeds?

You misunderstood the point. It wasn't that it proved she isn't. The point was that it discredited the "Ultimecia had her castle there because she was waiting for Squall" thing.

Her hating the SeeDs + Killing the last ones shortly before she casts Time Compression and ascends to godhood = Her most likely being there to settle a grudge.

[BG-57]

You can't prove a negative in this case anyway. I think R=U is possible but not plausible.

A useful principle is Occam's razor; it states that, all things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a complex one. Most of the arguments in favor of R=U are too complex.

[Dragonheart]

At the Final FMV what if when Rinoa finds Squall he is dead, then she would live in greif and insanity.Think of the similarities and opposites between rinoa and ultimecia. rinoa in the beginning is seen in a flurry of white flowers and is seen with white wings(a.k.a. angel wings) yet ultimecia too has wings(a.k.a. hell's angel wings) that are black with black flowers.the hair is the same the appearance is way different except the eyes. think of adel she wasn't born like that she was possesed by an earlier sorceress or sorcerer like Hyne, quote" Sorceress Rinoa...Hyne's descendent" she was torn bye insanity and changed, body and mind.....................................Just think about the possibilities then you'll understand.
I have confirmed this theory with the creaters of the game

[Ravenmorghane]

The matter of Rinoa being Ultimecia is really baseless. It requires the assumption that Witches are immortal

Erm they're sorceresses not witches

Witches are people who follow the pagan religions and cast spells the traditional ways to change things and have beliefs.

Soreceresses have powers like being able to shoot blasts of energy with their fingers or telekinesis etc.

[Takara]

I don't think Rinoa's and Ultimecia's hair look similar at all. Not only it's not the same colour, but Ulty has a widow's peak if I recall well, and Rinoa's hairline looks quite different.

Granted, she COULD have changed her appearance, but even there, just because they look similar does not mean that R=U.

[Big D]

At the Final FMV what if when Rinoa finds Squall he is dead, then she would live in greif and insanity.He wasn't dead. He was pretty close to death, because his reality had basically disintegrated around him, but he survived. This is proved incontrovertibly by the very end of the game, after the credits.
Think of the similarities and opposites between rinoa and ultimecia. rinoa in the beginning is seen in a flurry of white flowers and is seen with white wings(a.k.a. angel wings) yet ultimecia too has wings(a.k.a. hell's angel wings) that are black with black flowers.Most of the sorceresses have some kind of head-dress. Edea's garment is closer in appearance to Ultimecia's; it proves nothing.
the hair is the sameExcept for being straight, their hair is completely different.
the appearance is way different except the eyes. think of adel she wasn't born like thatThis just shows that some sorceresses can use magic to change how they look. What are you trying to say? "Rinoa and Ultimecia look similar, so they must be the same person. But they look different too, and this also proves they're the same person"?
she was possesed by an earlier sorceress or sorcerer like Hyne,Evidence?
quote" Sorceress Rinoa...Hyne's descendent""Hyne's descendent" is a term of respect. When you call a sorceress by that title, you're just showing courtesty.[qutoe] she was torn bye insanity and changed, body and mind.....................................Just think about the possibilities then you'll understand.[/quote]This is a popular explanation for the R=U theory, but still just a theory.
I have confirmed this theory with the creaters of the gameCodswallop.

[liamo]

the game creaters said that this theory has no real credit

[Squall of SeeD]

The matter of Rinoa being Ultimecia is really baseless. It requires the assumption that Witches are immortal

Erm they're sorceresses not witches

Witches are people who follow the pagan religions and cast spells the traditional ways to change things and have beliefs.

Soreceresses have powers like being able to shoot blasts of energy with their fingers or telekinesis etc.

The Japanese Version calls them "Witches." For that matter, when Nomura designed Edea, she was just called "The Witch." Further, note the song in the game called "SUCCESSION OF WITCHES" (yes, in all capital letters). Further still, the words that show up in several songs in the game and are also the title of a song in the game are "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec." These words are an anagram of "Succession of Witches" and "Love," two of the game's main themes.

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.



Most of the sorceresses have some kind of head-dress. Edea's garment is closer in appearance to Ultimecia's; it proves nothing.

On top of that, most of the Witches we see in the game have some kind of wing/feathery motif. Edea has feathers around the top of her dress, Adel has spiny black wings without feathers, Ultimecia has larger spiny black wings, possibly with feathers, though it's difficult to determine just by looking at them, and Rinoa has large white feathered wings.

[Ravenmorghane]

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.

B/S
gimme proof or I'll just believe that they more likely changed 'witch' to 'soreceress' because it was a more accurate name for them. Like I said, witches don't go around blasting people with ice shards, thats what a sorceress does.
And if westerns really see ill of witches why was the TV series Charmed popular around the same time period that the game was released? same with Buffy, and probably countless programmes and films of a similar genre.
Closemindedness has nothing to do with it, since 1990's people have always had a interest in the 'supernatural' .. FF8 was not designed in the witch hunt times you know!

when did I become so nitpicky?? look what you've done to me!

[Squall of SeeD]

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.

B/S
gimme proof or I'll just believe that they more likely changed 'witch' to 'soreceress' because it was a more accurate name for them. Like I said, witches don't go around blasting people with ice shards, thats what a sorceress does.
And if westerns really see ill of witches why was the TV series Charmed popular around the same time period that the game was released? same with Buffy, and probably countless programmes and films of a similar genre.
Closemindedness has nothing to do with it, since 1990's people have always had a interest in the 'supernatural' .. FF8 was not designed in the witch hunt times you know!

when did I become so nitpicky?? look what you've done to me!

Television is a different medium than video games. Video games have always been under the crosshairs of overbearing parental groups and trigger happy "We've got to shelter the chiiiiildren!" Senators. The last thing they needed in 1999 was either of these factions bearing down on them with the Big Stick of Righteousness.

Hell, the dialogue was also heavily modified at certain points. Translated as it was, it was going to have an M-Rating. Obnoxious and insulting as Seifer was, he was really a lot more rude.


As far as "Sorceress" supposedly more accurately conveying what was clearly meant as "Witch" -- I'm not even sure how you managed to ignore the evidence I pointed out -- there's the fact that they have the same etymological value. "Sorcerer" and "Sorceress" have the ultimate root of "Sors" in Latin, which means "Sort" in the context of "Destiny" or "Fortune." Decrees from Oracles concerning the future were called "Sorteres," meaning "Lots." It is from this that we get the concepts of casting and drawing "lots" based on fortune/luck.

With that in mind, both Sorceresses and Witches employ Magic, which stems from the word "Magus," which basically means "One who knows" or "One rich in knowledge."

Witches, Sages, Priests, Sorcerers, Viziers, and all their counterparts have the same etymological value, so I'm not sure what you were getting at here.


By the way, have you never seen anything else from Japan that had a Witch? Try The Record of Lodoss War. The Grey Witch is fully capable of telekinesis.

I'm not sure where you determined that a Witch would be incapable of using an Ice Spell, but whatever.

[Ravenmorghane]

The ice 'spell' was a random example from FF8, where Edea physically blasts ice shards at Squall. And its technically not a spell.
I'm just going by definitions. and it really doesnt matter. I was just pointing out something minor. You seem to be referring more to the stereotypical mythical witches that we see in computer games and films. I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

[Rini]

Future Esthar reminds me of that astronomist from the south park episode with the aliens who comes up with random words and traces them back to some sort of relevance.
haha :D "Cancelled" \o/
"Wait a minute... candy bars. they usually come in a wrapper. just like you wrap a christmas present. christmas happens when it's cold. cold as in Alaska. there's polar bears... polar bears... polarity! I can switch the polarity to see what transmissions are coming from the location this one is being sent to."
(had to watch the part of the episode where this was, couldn't remember it thoroughly :P)

anyway...


It was never stated half of the things implied in the Rinoa=Ulti theory.
And the only set of pictures you had to prove this was a picture of Rinoa and Ulti.
And they look too different.
This was not the case in the Julia=Ulti theory.
The Xerampelinae picture look a lot like Julia.
So what if Ultimecia had a painting of Julia on her wall? What if she was just a big fan of hers? You know, because Julia was the famous singer in the past, maybe she was good enough for Ulti to like her music ;)
Think about that.

Okay and about the Griever thing.. I never thought that Squall could be Griever, the thought never crossed my mind.

I reckon that Griever is 'the most powerful GF', one that's always existed and been known in the FFVIII world, but was finally caught and used by Ultimecia. It just makes a kind of literary sense for Squall ultimately to confront the very beast that he's always admired and always believed supreme - it means he really *is* in for a tough fight, not just another Sorceress with just another GF.
I was just about to say the same thing (just in a more simpler way, like my mind works heh).

Then about R=U. I don't know what's true and what not, but as somewhere stated already, the game's much more interesting to play when you think that way, that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Or a little simpler way:
Sorceresses pass on their powers before they die, right. So what if they pass on a bit of their own memories at the same time, much like with dress spheres in X-2 (you know the songstress dress sphere with Lenne's thoughts and memories in it). That way, Rinoa's, and other sorceresses, like Edea's, memories were all passed down again and again unto Ultimecia, who then becomes schitzophrenic and gets mad and wants to kill everyone. omg.

[ThroneofDravaris]

I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

Witches don’t really exist, they’re just crazy people that wear black and don’t shower.

[Squall of SeeD]

The ice 'spell' was a random example from FF8, where Edea physically blasts ice shards at Squall. And its technically not a spell.

What would you call it?



I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

As do I, which leaves me even more baffled by your argument here. It amounts to "They're not the same thing despite being the same thing."

[Ravenmorghane]

ok you're confusing me .. a spell is where you have candles and its kinda like meditating, the ice shard thing is a form of telekinesis really .. its a power or ability that a being gains.
I'm not saying they're the same at all you're confusing me now so just drop it. anyways were way off topic and we'll probably get told off for discussing something irrelevant instead of PMing. Plus I gave up caring.

[sephiroth9006]

i actually think that Ulticima is the daughter of squall and rinoa,as they do look sorta similar in appearance,but she has some of squalls facial features(well i think,by looking at her face).
and i think that Griever was a result of manipulation of rinoas and squalls dead memories and souls,creating the ultimate GF out of their pure emotions and feelings, which lead her to study time compression arts,technically making her a time mage as opposed to a pure sorceress. she gained her extra power,by going back in her twisted history and editing it, which was how the sorceress hyne actually died, at the hands of ulticima,and also elimintaing the solomon family which had some sort of great power,but she overlooked it and discared their coat of arms (Solomon ring). After modifing history to her liking she fixed it so that she could try and stop her own birth to prevent her pain and suffering.
well those are some theories that i'm still not to sure about, and i'll probably get flamed for it,but i'm posting my veiws.

[Christmas]

i actually think that Ulticima is the daughter of squall and rinoa,as they do look sorta similar in appearance,but she has some of squalls facial features(well i think,by looking at her face).

Not possible as daughter considering the time Ultimecia live in..maybe great-great....grand daughter.


which was how the sorceress hyne actually died, at the hands of ulticima,

She killed Hyne? From my research, no one ever seen Hyne after he gave a bit of his powers to the mortals. But look at this, Ultimecia received a part of Hyne's powers and even she did some research and increase her powers, it will be little possibily she can overcome Hyne by herself since it is Hyne that give her the powers. Of course, the human overcome Hyne in history but only by unity of the entire human race against a rouge sorceror that is but they never manage to kill him.


and also elimintaing the solomon family which had some sort of great power,but she overlooked it and discared their coat of arms (Solomon ring).

The solomon ring really play a tiny part in the game and it is just an optional item. But why do it came in the form of a train and why it is just so nice that it is in the tear points?


After modifing history to her liking she fixed it so that she could try and stop her own birth to prevent her pain and suffering.
well those are some theories that i'm still not to sure about, and i'll probably get flamed for it,but i'm posting my veiws.

This one is my favourite, Look, when we have regrets, we all hope that it will go away and even you manage to forget it, the scar in the heart will alway be there. The only way to eliminate regrets is never to let regrets happen in the first place. Make sense though... (and I am not FLAMING you..) :)

[Future Esthar]

So what if Ultimecia had a painting of Julia on her wall? What if she was just a big fan of hers? You know, because Julia was the famous singer in the past, maybe she was good enough for Ulti to like her music ;)
Think about that.

Julia with a crown?
No,it makes more sense that the woman in the picture is a queen of the castle who make a picture of herself.
Ulti is certainly the queen.
A descendant?A parent?
Since she wears red I prefer to think she is Julia.
But I may be wrong.
Maybe she is a descendant or something.
But if all queens were supposed to wear red why name the picture "Red clothes" if this was not a special characteristic of one of the queens but common to all of them.
As I stated in another thread Edea was the first sorceress.At Ultima´s time no other sorceress were born yet so their pictures can not be there in the art gallery.Just Ulti´s.That proofs she was the first queen.

[Christmas]

There is also other pictures in the gallery if you want to talk about pictures here. Since you only explain three, care explaining the rest?

INTERVIGILIUM (Sleep)
JUDICIUM (Judgment)
IGNUS (Fire)
VIVIDARIUM (Garden)
INANDANTIA (Flood)
VIATOR (Messenger)
INAUDAX (Cowardice)
XIPHIAS (Swordfish)
XYSTUS (Tree-Lined Road)

[Future Esthar]

Sleep-Refers to Ellone´s ability.But further details are unclear to me.
Judgement-A symbolic picture created by Ellone(Ulti´s daughter) stating that the Lunar Cry will happen through Lunatic Pandora on Centra.LP is symbolized by a flying monster.The impact freezes the Trabia region.
Fire-The fire cavern has somekind of a vulcan inside.It erupts burning part of the Trabia region.The ice turns into water and flood the region that is presently around FH.
Garden-This is some garden that exists far from Ulti´s castle.Ellone see´s the future and sees that this garden will become Esthar.Thus she paint this.
Flood-See "Fire".
Messenger-This can refer to many things.To Ellone,to Selphie,to the communications tower,etc..
Looking at the picture we see a messenger bird flying from the top of a big house.I think we can see a polerope over the house and the bird coming from it.It sugest that it is the comm tower.
Cowardy-It´s difficult to see what is in the picture but looking at the name it can symbolize either Zell either X.I believe this the picture that most worries X.Ellone saw X.
Swordfish-I am no sure.This could refer to Squall or Seifer or the badamb fish.I would bet is the badamb fish but then the sword thingy is related to what? no clues.
Tree-line-road-Refers to the horizon bridge.It´s possible that the horizon bridge was created by the centra civilization and then remodelled to a modern-like bridge.
Or this was just something Ellone sees on the future and decides to paint using a medieval bridge as a symbol.

[Christmas]

Alright, it seem like that you really are clueless when I ask about the picture thingy.

Dun you get it? You say the first three pictures you mentioned earlier in the game has BACKING on why Ultimecia is Julia but now the other pictures had absolutely NOTHING RELATED with your theory. So why do they put all this picture in one room if only THREE is to prove your theory while the others has absolutely nothing to do with it?

And for your explaination of the pictures, others can also come up other form of explainations to it as each one's views varies. That is why sometime artists grew a bunch of "unknown thingy" and people start to speculate and come up with ideas of their own.

For example of how one views varies:

Sleep: The Sleep magic in the game
Flood: A flooding near Trabia (See the ice mountains and all this?)
Judgement: Alexandria's Holy Judgement
Fire: The fire rage by the monsters dropped from the moon. (See the moon in the picture)

And etc....

Lastly, how do you explain the final picture which say: "In a garden sleep a messenger"



Garden-This is some garden that exists far from Ulti´s castle.Ellone see´s the future and sees that this garden will become Esthar.Thus she paint this.
Sleep-Refers to Ellone´s ability.But further details are unclear to me
Messenger-This can refer to many things.To Ellone,to Selphie,to the communications tower,etc..

How will you interpret this?

[Future Esthar]

Maybe all the pictures were symbolic but were based on events happening on Ulti´s time.
For example a prophet can have a vision in which he sees a car.A XX century car.
But he can decide to make a picture in which there is a medieval car to represent his vision.And maybe this car his near him and he uses it as a model to represent what he sees on his visions.

The great picture-I would love to interpret it.The image don´t help too much.But I think it is either saying Elle appears on Winhill or that X lives on the "garden" where he is safe so he can sleep well.I prefer the last interpretation.This explains why Ulti worries to make the title blurry.
Obviously one can be deceived by the fact that Edea could be the messenger since she is the first to tell about Ulti and the future(and when we look at the picture...).
But X purposedly make it look true by possessing Edea and then pretending she was not possessed anymore.
Elle made a picture of a city using the patterns she knows on her medieval time.She wasn´t able to paint the city in it´s real form because she knows nothing about futuristic technology.I grant you the picture didn´t refer to Edea´s house.Elle were able to make a most accurate painting of the city using flowers.

[Christmas]

Maybe all the pictures were symbolic but were based on events happening on Ulti´s time

Symbolic in a way that all picture represent individual events and not inter related like you say? If they are inter related, why only the three picture and not all?

[QUOTE=Future Esthar]For example a prophet can have a vision in which he sees a car.A XX century car.
But he can decide to make a picture in which there is a medieval car to represent his vision.And maybe this car his near him and he uses it as a model to represent what he sees on his visions.

Now, maybe other prophet see a ZZ century car but he happen to see the car that is near the first prophet who see the XX century car. So he also use the same car to represent his visions.

See what I mean? The picture might have the same outcome but different interpretations through the eyes of others.



The great picture-I would love to interpret it.The image don´t help too much.But I think it is either saying Elle appears on Winhill or that X lives on the "garden" where he is safe so he can sleep well.I prefer the last interpretation.This explains why Ulti worries to make the title blurry.
Obviously one can be deceived by the fact that Edea could be the messenger since she is the first to tell about Ulti and the future(and when we look at the picture...).
But X purposedly make it look true by possessing Edea and then pretending she was not possessed anymore.
Elle made a picture of a city using the patterns she knows on her medieval time.She wasn´t able to paint the city in it´s real form because she knows nothing about futuristic technology.I grant you the picture didn´t refer to Edea´s house.Elle were able to make a most accurate painting of the city using flowers.

Look, your interpretation has no direct linkage to your theory of Ultimecia is Julia but just some random event.

[greiver]

there is no freakin' way that ultimecia and rhinoa are the same person. ultimecia has an accent and rhinoa doesn't. and because rhinoa isn't ultimecia it makes no sense for squall to be greiver.also julia doesn't have an accent either. they also look nothing a like. :tonberry:

did any one stop to think that ultimecia mught be a collector of fine art.they could just be there and not be symbolic. they probably had no relation o the story other than sqare wanted to make more references to the gardens (the messesnger sleeps in the garden). :tonberry:

EDIT: Use the edit button instead of double posting. -Murder

[Future Esthar]

Who said they must all be related to Julia?They dont.They were different events.Some of them happens on Ulti´s time like Xerampelinae,Venus and Vigil and others were painted by Elle representing her visions.

[Christmas]

they also look nothing a like.

This is something to prove what is wrong in your theory through graphical details you are talking about.


did any one stop to think that ultimecia mught be a collector of fine art.they could just be there and not be symbolic. they probably had no relation o the story other than sqare wanted to make more references to the gardens (the messesnger sleeps in the garden).

From what I analysis from him, there is no such things as a simple stone lying on the floor with no specific purpose but a stone that might be a legendary treasure passed down centuries ago.

[greiver]

exactly the pictures could just be acient valueble treasures
ultimecia is powerful and wealthy wealthy ppl like to flaunt there riches with big houses, or castles in this case , they also display artworks that are valuble or rare
:tonberry:
p.s. i like tonberrys

[Future Esthar]

..and many times made pictures of themselves to show that they are beautiful.Especially if they are queens.
"Whatever" members always uses excuses to say one´s theories is wrong.
They are close minded.
They need to start to see the context of things and think in terms of the whole thing.
Ironically many of these members have played near all FF´s from 1 to 11 but don´t know Square well enough to see they don´t create things for nothing.For them(Square) almost everything needs to have a purpose.I just played 7 and 8 and already perceived this.

[Christmas]

Who said they must all be related to Julia?They dont.They were different events.Some of them happens on Ulti´s time like Xerampelinae,Venus and Vigil and others were painted by Elle representing her visions.

So then why are all of them in the same room where only three are inter related? It is too much of a coincidence. Also, I can interpret the three pictures in this way:

Xerampelinae:Ultimecia herself as the queen
Venus: Love is what make the world bleed.(the picture is all red)
Vigil :The guardians that watch over the castle.

And there is also a lot more other ways to interpret way the pictures through the eyes of spectators but only the artist know the real answer.


Ironically many of these members have played near all FF´s from 1 to 11 but don´t know Square well enough to see they don´t create things for nothing.For them(Square) almost everything needs to have a purpose.I just played 7 and 8 and already perceived this

You still haven't perceived anything until you can prove me wrong and put an end to this little debate that lasted for centuries.This thread has somehow turned into a debate between the two of us now.
And you have no proof/basis to claim the other are ignorant.

PS: I am off to sleep now and will contiune tommorrow....btw, nice debating with you, it really make my brain function better.

[General-Beatrix]

I don't think Rinoa's and Ultimecia's hair look similar at all. Not only it's not the same colour, but Ulty has a widow's peak if I recall well, and Rinoa's hairline looks quite different.

Granted, she COULD have changed her appearance, but even there, just because they look similar does not mean that R=U.


Well let's look at Edea, Ultimecia did possess her and when Rinoa tried to give Edea the thing the Dr. Odine made, Edea instantly changed the length of her hair. Which means that sorceresses can possibly change their apperence but wouldn't waste their time doing that.

[greiver]

square doesn't dothings for no reasons but some times they aren't always related to that part of the plot. you all should know that the messeger sleeps in the garden refers to SeeD. SeeDs are the messagers of justice and they are trained in the garden waitng to fufill there main purpose which is combatting the sorceress. also how do we kno that ultimecia's castle didn't belong to someone else and she just took it and claimed it as her own. :tonberry:

[Future Esthar]

Art galleries don´t need to have pictures related to each other.That´s why they are art.
But I dont see Ulti´s picture as reductionist or modernist or surrealist or whatever we name the pictures of Van Ghog or Salvador Dali or others.
They don´t look like that.They were pictures which worked like a diary describing present and future events.


Xerampelinae:Ultimecia herself as the queen
Venus: Love is what make the world bleed.(the picture is all red)
Vigil :The guardians that watch over the castle.

That´s exactly how I interpret them.
And the guardians were Vascaroon(Laguna),Kyros and Ward.
Of course after time compression Ulti changed they destiny making them Galbadian Soldiers.But I will show you later that Vascaroon acomplished his good destiny (he used Time compression and Elle´s abilities for his and the worlds benefit).


And there is also a lot more other ways to interpret way the pictures through the eyes of spectators but only the artist know the real answer.

Exactly.I am open to other interpretations (and wanna to find if someone has an interesting one).
This is one of the fun of the forums.We can share our theories and also see the others to increase your knowledge.This way we can learn more things about the game.

[greiver]

yeah but those are just interpetations of the pictures again i bring up the previously made statement what about the other pictures. square wouldn't make only those 3 pictures have meaning.
and the the xerampelinae picture looks nothing like ultimecia. ultimecia also has silver hair.
i would like to see ignus, inadantia, inaudax, xiphas and xystus explained if you are so adamant about you're interpetations
:tonberry:

[Future Esthar]

I already explained them.
Ulti has silver hair due to aging or the deformation caused by becoming a sorceress.

[greiver]

what's rhinoa's deformation? and what does that have to do with the other pictures.and if you look closely the pictures are different styles. because xiphas is obviousl impatso styleand venus and ignus may be impat6so also
:tonberry:

[Future Esthar]

You weren´t on the forums these days were you?
Julia don´t die.Deling made it look like she was dead but she was not.He uses media to confuse people.
Julia became Edea which is Ulti.

[Destai]

You weren´t on the forums these days were you?
Julia don´t die.Deling made it look like she was dead but she was not.He uses media to confuse people.
Julia became Edea which is Ulti.Edea was Matron while Julia was alive. Laguna spoke to both Matron and Julia with not much of a difference in time. Julia cant be two people at the same time or grow that much hair in that ammount of time.

[Future Esthar]

In fact Laguna recognizes Edea was Julia but keep it silent(according to his watchman personality).Julia time traveled to the past after she became Edea.Then she went to Centra.

[Destai]

You dont recognize the difference between fan fiction and theories furture esthar. A theory needs fact to back it up.

[Future Esthar]

This could as well be a fanfiction that tells what the writer intended when he created the story.

[Destai]

Yes and lets stress the word fiction. Squares already confirmed that they never inteded for the game to be looked into as deeply as the R=U theory. If R=U are considered to be looking in too deeply then your theories would most definitely count also.

[greiver]

you are wrong it is said in the game that she died, edea is a different person you must be really naive to think that. edea is not rhinoa's mother.
:tonberry:

edea can't time travel she can freeze time but not move through out it. future esthar you really need to pay more attention and find facts
:tonberry:

EDIT: Edit button please.

[Christmas]

Xerampelinae:Ultimecia herself as the queen
Venus: Love is what make the world bleed.(the picture is all red)
Vigil :The guardians that watch over the castle.

That´s exactly how I interpret them.
And the guardians were Vascaroon(Laguna),Kyros and Ward.
Of course after time compression Ulti changed they destiny making them Galbadian Soldiers.But I will show you later that Vascaroon acomplished his good destiny (he used Time compression and Elle´s abilities for his and the worlds benefit).

No, this not how you interpret them except for the queen thingy. You say Vigil is watchmen meaning Laguna and CO watching over Ellone while I interpret them as those guardians that guard Ultimecia's castle. And Venus is a totally different interpretation from yours.


Exactly.I am open to other interpretations (and wanna to find if someone has an interesting one).
This is one of the fun of the forums.We can share our theories and also see the others to increase your knowledge.This way we can learn more things about the game.

Xerampelinae:Ultimecia's grandmother
Venus: Love is a faint sight of confusion
Vigil : SeeD that is alway keeping an eyes on her movements.


Ulti has silver hair due to aging or the deformation caused by becoming a sorceress.

So you agree with this statement as what was told by Squall of SeeD that black magic cause deformation, and not because of she is propagator that cause her hand to deform?


This could as well be a fanfiction that tells what the writer intended when he created the story.

But you were unable to prove it.


b4 i go i would like to make clear why julia can't be ultimecia for those n00bs who think she is. julia is dead. she dies when rhinoa is 5

you are wrong it is said in the game that she died, edea is a different person you must be really naive to think that. edea is not rhinoa's mother.

edea can't time travel she can freeze time but not move through out it. future esthar you really need to pay more attention and find facts

All this points you spoke of, I have already point it out EARLIER in the thread and some he had answered while some is still under debate. Try reading the previous posts by other posters before posting.

PS: Pls dun double posts

[Future Esthar]

The tutorial says that Julia is dead.
But things in the tutorial constitute statements that were learned worldwide.
But Media can manipulate information on the minds of people.Gotcha?


No, this not how you interpret them except for the queen thingy. You say Vigil is watchmen meaning Laguna and CO watching over Ellone while I interpret them as those guardians that guard Ultimecia's castle. And Venus is a totally different interpretation from yours.

No,I always said they were guardians of the castle.The three guardians were Vascaroon(Laguna),Kyros and Ward.
Love is the love between Laguna and Julia.I don´t change nothing.I just added things to it.
[/QUOTE]So you agree with this statement as what was told by Squall of SeeD that black magic cause deformation, and not because of she is propagator that cause her hand to deform?[QUOTE]

She deforms because she is a Propagator.
Yesterday I saw Men in Black 1.
In the end the alien with human form changes to his alien insect form.
Gotcha?

[Christmas]

The tutorial says that Julia is dead.
But things in the tutorial constitute statements that were learned worldwide.
But Media can manipulate information on the minds of people.Gotcha?

Media manipulate people in the game and not people outside the game. People outside the game can rely on other sources to see what is the truth and not from only the game. And the game creator provide those information and not the "media" inside the game.


No,I always said they were guardians of the castle.The three guardians were Vascaroon(Laguna),Kyros and Ward.
Love is the love between Laguna and Julia.I don´t change nothing.I just added things to it.

The guardian I spoke of is the MONSTERS that guard Ultimecia's castle. You know those that seal your powers.
And I interpret Love as other thing, Anyone can have their own intepretation.


She deforms because she is a Propagator.

Oh really? then this is what you say earlier:


Ulti has silver hair due to aging or the deformation caused by becoming a sorceress.

You say sorceress and not propagator. You went back on your words again.


Yesterday I saw Men in Black 1.
In the end the alien with human form changes to his alien insect form.
Gotcha?

And I played the arcade game Alien verus Predator. The predator has kick ass kung fu and the aliens can split toxic from their mouth. Your Edea can't.

So, what is the link? Men in Black and Final Fantasy is two different issues. The characters in Men in Black has nothing to do with Final fantasy not to say their aliens.

PS:I think I will continue with the others the next time..tired today.

[Wuggly Blight]

Oh dear god no, not another one of these.
Doc Odine clearly says Ulty lives in the future. So far into the future its not possible for them to exist, so how can she have any bearing whatsoever on the present at all when they are all DEAD by her time period.

[Future Esthar]

Media manipulate people in the game and not people outside the game. People outside the game can rely on other sources to see what is the truth and not from only the game. And the game creator provide those information and not the "media" inside the game.

Exactly.But the information at the tutorial is not supposed to be something that the author intended.It represents a summary of the current knowledge people gains in the game.
Look,their real identities as Propagators shows up when their are possessed.X uses all their potentialities when he possess them.
Their sorceress abilities come from the fact that they are Propagators.The transformations we see in the game were parcial though.
If they transform tottally we would see them in the form of Propagators.
Unknowns,I had sent you a PM yesterday.

Woggly Blight,to what theory of mine are you refferring?
They are alive in TC.TC is always on the entire game with the exception of Ulti´s time.

[Destai]

Yesterday I saw Men in Black 1.
In the end the alien with human form changes to his alien insect form.
Gotcha?Keep the crazy theories inside the game please. If you dont theyll go down in quality.

[Wuggly Blight]

Ulty lives, as stated before any time compression that took place, that she lived far in the future. so far in the future its not possible for any of them to even exist. Your reading way to deep trying to find connections that just are not there, between monsters, Julia or whatever.

[FinalBob42]

Here is an interesting tidbit I found on answers.com regarding the issue. It lists almost all known facts known for and against the theory. Sorry if this it too long or not part of the current discussion, I found it interesting.



Based on this conversation, one theory suggests that Ultimecia is actually a future version of Rinoa, driven mad by grief after Squall's death, who intends to compress time as a way of regaining her beloved. The theory is attractive because it provides Ultimecia with the depth, background, and motivation that many felt she lacked. However, all the alleged evidence for the theory is highly debatable, and it remains purely speculative. The most commonly cited arguments for the theory are discussed below.

* Edea looks significantly younger than her husband, Cid Kramer. Based on this, many players believe that sorceresses do not age. If this is true, Rinoa would almost inevitably outlive her "knight," leading to her becoming evil. However, the game actually makes it clear that sorceresses do in fact age - Edea was five years old when she became a sorceress, but is clearly an adult at the time of the game. It is possible that sorceresses age more slowly than ordinary humans, or that they age until adulthood and then stop. If this is true, though, then it seems extremely unusual that no one in the game - especially Edea herself - ever mentions it.

* Proponents of the theory often claim that Rinoa and Ultimecia have the same facial structure. However, this is highly subjective; many see no resemblance, or point out other characters in the game who look more alike.

* The theory's advocates often argue that the game says a sorceress must die in order to pass on her powers. Rinoa received her powers from Edea, yet Edea did not die. This mystery surrounding the source of Rinoa's powers is often used to suggest that somehow Rinoa must be Ultimecia. However, this argument is based on a misinterpretation. The game does not say a sorceress must die to pass on her powers; rather, it says that a sorceress must pass on her powers before she can die peacefully, which is not the same thing.

* Ultimecia has black feathered wings on her back. Rinoa has a design suggesting white angel's wings on the back of her duster, and ghostly white wings appear on her back when she goes into Angelwing, one of her limit breaks. However, Edea also has black feathers on her gown, and the Sorceress Adel has a wing-like structure on her back, so it's possible that wings are simply a symbol associated with sorceresses in general, rather than any particular sorceress.

* While on the Ragnarok with Squall, Rinoa says that she wishes time would stand still. Opponents of the theory point out that time, memory, and the importance of moving forward rather than clinging to the past are all major themes in the game, and that it's therefore not surprising if multiple characters voice similar sentiments.

* Rinoa and Squall promise one another that if they are ever separated, they will meet in the field of flowers next to Edea's cottage. Ultimecia's castle is located near the cottage, and proponents of the theory suggest that Ultimecia placed her palace there due to her hopes of finding Squall through time compression. Those opposed to the theory say this is simply coincidence, and point out that the castle must be located near the field of flowers to make possible the romantic scene in which Rinoa finds Squall there after the final battle.

* After becoming a sorceress, Rinoa worries about the possibility that she will become evil and her friends will be forced to fight her; "Squall's sword will pierce my heart," she says. Advocates of the theory interpret this as foreshadowing.

* Squall has a ring and pendant with the image of a stylized lion that he calls "Griever." He gives the ring to Rinoa during the game. In the final battle, Ultimecia summons a powerful Guardian Force - a winged lion named Griever. Some fans suggest that Ultimecia actually obtained Griever from Squall's ring; another GF in the game, Doomtrain, is obtained through an item called the Solomon Ring. However, this argument is contradicted by the original Japanese-language version of the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia actually draws Griever from within Squall's mind.

* In the game's ending FMV, the image of Ultimecia's face flashes quickly over Rinoa's face three times. This is the only FMV footage of Ultimecia in the entire game. However, it comes in a hallucination that contains a number of bizarre and unexplained images.

* The junctioning of GFs has the side effect of causing severe long-term memory loss. Proponents of the theory invoke this fact to explain why Ultimecia would attempt to kill Squall, her long-lost love, when he confronts her. However, while GFs do cause loss of conscious memories, it is clear that the memories are not completely destroyed, and that emotional reactions based on the lost memories remain. Squall's rivalry with Seifer and Quistis' crush on Squall are both caused by childhood events that Squall and Quistis have forgotten due to their GF use. However, Ultimecia shows no reaction at all to meeting either Squall or Rinoa. This fact is perhaps the strongest argument against the theory; the love story between Rinoa and Squall is a major focus of the game, and it seems highly unlikely that a future version of Rinoa would not react in some way to meeting her lost love.

Opponents of the theory point to an editorial (http://www.square-x.com/news/169) posted on SquareX (http://www.square-x.com/), the writer of which claims to have spoken with an unnamed source at Square who denies the connection. The veracity of this account, and the identity of the source, are unclear, and proponents of the theory have expressed doubts as to its authenticity.

[Christmas]

the writer of which claims to have spoken with an unnamed source at Square who denies the connection

Maybe this line answer all questions? :D


Exactly.But the information at the tutorial is not supposed to be something that the author intended.

Then what is it for? For everyone to have a good laugh? Then if the tutorial is not supposed to be something that the author intended, then the tutorial of "Basic Operation" ...etc (mainly on how to play the game)is also not the author intended? Then how do the author intend us to play the game? Communicate with Squall through the force and command him to attack?


It represents a summary of the current knowledge people gains in the game.

It also tell us what INDEED happen in the game or have already HAPPENED in the game.


Look,their real identities as Propagators shows up when their are possessed.X uses all their potentialities when he possess them.
Their sorceress abilities come from the fact that they are Propagators.

Look, sorceress ability came from an ancient sorcerer named Hyne which I have shown how he is related to Yu Yevon. All sorceress received a fragement of his powers and is defined as his "descendant
" unless the game creators are in for an April Fool Joke when April had long passed.



The transformations we see in the game were parcial though.
If they transform tottally we would see them in the form of Propagators.


Too bad they dun and they can't and we dun have Squall having a limit break called "Transform to Propagators". and I dun see any transformations in the game.

[Wuggly Blight]

Word.

[crazybayman]

You weren´t on the forums these days were you?
Julia don´t die.Deling made it look like she was dead but she was not.He uses media to confuse people.
Julia became Edea which is Ulti.
Dude, don't quote this as if its true. Its complete bull$hit. If you think its true, fine, but don't spread it as if it is a fact. People will only get confused.

[MoonZapdos]

however
what is the reason that rinoa turned evil?
Maybe she just freaked out. :rolleyes2

[crazybayman]

Thank-you Finalbob42. Hopefully FE will see that his theories are completely ridiculous.



* In the game's ending FMV, the image of Ultimecia's face flashes quickly over Rinoa's face three times. This is the only FMV footage of Ultimecia in the entire game. However, it comes in a hallucination that contains a number of bizarre and unexplained images.
So does anyone have any ideas to what that could mean? (And no, R=U will not be accepted as a reasonable answer :) ). Maybe Ultimecia is a decendant of Rhinoa?


You weren´t on the forums these days were you?
Julia don´t die.Deling made it look like she was dead but she was not.He uses media to confuse people.
Julia became Edea which is Ulti.
Dude, don't quote this as if its true. Its complete bull$hit. If you think its true, fine, but don't spread it as if it is a fact. People will only get confused.

[Christmas]

Maybe Ultimecia is a decendant of Rhinoa?


If that is the case, Squall murdered his own bloodline since we presume Rinoa will marry Squall in the end? Or if Rinoa didn't marry Squall and married other random person, she is still involved in murdering her own bloodline(Great, Great---------Grand daugther maybe?).

How sad...what tragedy .....:crying:

Oh well, who cares. It is just a game and it is every man for himself. :love:

To Future: As for the PM, I will reply later. Sorry. :(

[crazybayman]

Maybe Ultimecia is a decendant of Rhinoa?


If that is the case, Squall murdered his own bloodline since we presume Rinoa will marry Squall in the end? Or if Rinoa didn't marry Squall and married other random person, she is still involved in murdering her own bloodline(Great, Great---------Grand daugther maybe?).

How sad...what tragedy .....:crying:

Oh well, who cares. It is just a game and it is every man for himself. :love:

Since they are immediately sent to the future through TC, they would have no idea that Ulti is their own bloodline (they didn't exactly find Ulti's family tree, and trace it back to their time before fighting her, eh? :) )

I'm not saying its true........it just crossed my mind. I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks of that (Ultimecia's face flashing over Rhinoa's in the end).

[Christmas]

Squall and Co doesn't know it but the murdering of the same bloodline event still take place even if no one knew it. So it is still a tragedy. :D


I'm not saying its true........it just crossed my mind. I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks of that (Ultimecia's face flashing over Rhinoa's in the end).

Ya, it really strange, why not Edea, Ellone or anyone but Ultimecia? My guess is that it is Ultimecia's last attempt to break Squall's mind and take him along with her by casting some soft of spell which cause a mental breakdown, and that is why Squall see her in those images then he fainted.

Of course, it is just a guess though.... :)

[Future Esthar]

Unknowns,I was just referring to the information section of the tutorial.

Dear friends.Can´t you see that Ulti is Edea?
Was sorceress Adel even at Edea´s house?
If Ulti=Rinoa,Ulti would die when she kill´s Rinoa.
There is only Edea left.
And of the four sorceresses,Edea,Rinoa,Quistis and Selphie Edea is what is left (the others fight Ulti).
Edea don´t fight Ulti.So she is the only one who could be Ulti.
We can even see the White Seed and THEIR SHIP.
Yeah,you can see the White Seed Ship there.It was destroyed by Ulti but it is there.I can tell you where it is if you don´t find it.
Edea´s castle was on the past not the future.
Squall even remembers it (yeah,he remembers at least the location of the master room).

[Rini]

Dear friends.Can´t you see that Ulti is Edea?

Why can't you try for once think that Ulti could just as possibly be just Ulti? Or at least try holding to ONE theory instead of making up another when the previous one is proven wrong (just a while ago you were still saying Julia=Ultimecia)
So she has some similarities in appearance than other sorceresses or people. So what? In real world there are a lot of people who look like someone else, doesn't mean that they ARE the exact same person.


Was sorceress Adel even at Edea´s house?
If Ulti=Rinoa,Ulti would die when she kill´s Rinoa.
There is only Edea left.
And of the four sorceresses,Edea,Rinoa,Quistis and Selphie Edea is what is left (the others fight Ulti).
Edea don´t fight Ulti.So she is the only one who could be Ulti.
A lot of other people don't fight Ultimecia at the end either, so does that make them Ulti along with Edea? No. I'm not even going to ask where you get the idea of Quistis and Selphie being sorceresses...


We can even see the White Seed and THEIR SHIP.
Yeah,you can see the White Seed Ship there.It was destroyed by Ulti but it is there.I can tell you where it is if you don´t find it.
Upon entering to the yard where you find the SeeD bodies, Squall says: "Future SeeD... We fight her across generations..." which means that through the present of squall and friends until the future time of Ultimecia, SeeD battle sorceresses and are aware of the fact that one day a sorceress called Ultimecia will try to conquer the world (of course through squall's time's historics the information passes through to the next generation and so on). The White SeeD ship might still be in condition in the future, so why not the future seed use it, even without Edea? They might have another leader at that time.
Now someone might say "what about the gardens, shouldn't they exist too if ragnarok is there too?" Now I haven't checked and can't remember if any of the gardens are visible in the world map, but it's possible that Ultimecia has destroyed them, knowing that they exist only to kill the sorceress. "then why not destroy the white seed ship?" It's said in the game that the White SeeD are very cautious and don't remain in the same place for long. that's why it's so hard to find them in the first place. so maybe they've stayed hidden from ulti until the "final" attack.
I haven't seen it yet though o.o could you pass a screenshot or something to show just where it is?


Edea´s castle was on the past not the future.
Squall even remembers it (yeah,he remembers at least the location of the master room).
Edea does not have a castle, unless you refer to the orphanage. It's the only "castle" in the present time where Edea lives (at least after disc 2 ending :P).

And if you're referring to Ultimecia's castle, it IS in the future. It's clearly stated in the game dialogue. "Ultimecia lives far in the future, so far in time where none of us couldn't logically exist." So it's future where they go through time.
And how does Squall "remember" the master room?

Oh and btw Future Esthar, just for fun, take a look at these fanshrines I found (a few of them quite popular, at least to my knowledge). Some interesting info you might not have known. Maybe some things might look more clear to you...
http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/
http://rinoa.nu/rinoa/
http://www.geocities.com/feared_sorceress/indexx.html
http://tifa.nu/julia/frame.html
http://www.meoworks.com/ellone/little.html
http://www.balamb.org/others/

[Xaven]

Dear friends.Can´t you see that Ulti is Edea?

Why can't you try for once think that Ulti could just as possibly be just Ulti? Or at least try holding to ONE theory instead of making up another when the previous one is proven wrong (just a while ago you were still saying Julia=Ultimecia)
He says that Julia is Edea who is Ultimecia.


I'm not even going to ask where you get the idea of Quistis and Selphie being sorceresses...
He made that one up a while ago. I don't remember if it was in this thread or one of the other two.

As for Squall "remembering" where Ultimecia(/Edea/Julia)'s room is, even I could tell by the look and location of the room that she was inside. Even the menu says that the location is the master room.

[Rini]

Dear friends.Can´t you see that Ulti is Edea?

Why can't you try for once think that Ulti could just as possibly be just Ulti? Or at least try holding to ONE theory instead of making up another when the previous one is proven wrong (just a while ago you were still saying Julia=Ultimecia)
He says that Julia is Edea who is Ultimecia.


I'm not even going to ask where you get the idea of Quistis and Selphie being sorceresses...
He made that one up a while ago. I don't remember if it was in this thread or one of the other two.

As for Squall "remembering" where Ultimecia(/Edea/Julia)'s room is, even I could tell by the look and location of the room that she was inside. Even the menu says that the location is the master room.
Aaa... okay I get it now. Yeah I also realized when I first looked at the place that it is THE room where she waits. But I thought FE referred to Squall as a character remembering the place from before or something...

[Christmas]

Dear friends.Can´t you see that Ulti is Edea?

Nope. can't. ANYONE OF YOU OUT THERE CAN? IF CAN, PLS ANSWER!!!!


Was sorceress Adel even at Edea´s house?

So what if she is even at Edea's house or not?


If Ulti=Rinoa,Ulti would die when she kill´s Rinoa.

But she never "killed" her and at the most knock out her which can be revived by our friendly neighbourhood item Phoenix down.


There is only Edea left.
And of the four sorceresses,Edea,Rinoa,Quistis and Selphie Edea is what is left (the others fight Ulti).
Edea don´t fight Ulti.So she is the only one who could be Ulti.

Ellone also dun fight Ultimecia too, not to forget Xu, the "Queen" in the CC group, the library girl and etc. And they can all be sorceress who knows?


We can even see the White Seed and THEIR SHIP.
Yeah,you can see the White Seed Ship there.It was destroyed by Ulti but it is there.I can tell you where it is if you don´t find it.
Edea´s castle was on the past not the future.
Squall even remembers it (yeah,he remembers at least the location of the master room).

If Edea's castle is the orphanage you refering to, then let me tell you the layout of the orphanage is totally different from Ulti's castle and there is no way Squall can rememeber anything.

[Future Esthar]

Let´s even consider that Ulti uses the "absorbed into time" thingy.
And then revives Rinoa.But that would be a time loop.But it didn´t make sence.The loop would had to have a beggining somewhere.Even the one in which Ulti passed her powers to Rinoa had a beggining.


So what if she is even at Edea's house or not?

If she wasn´t at Edea´s house she was not Ulti.Duh.


Ellone also dun fight Ultimecia too, not to forget Xu, the "Queen" in the CC group, the library girl and etc. And they can all be sorceress who knows?

There is no real basis to say that(except Ellone which is Rinoa).
With more accuracy I can show you that Quistis and Selphie were sorceresses.



If Edea's castle is the orphanage you refering to, then let me tell you the layout of the orphanage is totally different from Ulti's castle and there is no way Squall can rememeber anything..

I believe Edea´s house is a ruin of a part of Ulti´s Castle.

[Squall of SeeD]

I believe Edea´s house is a ruin of a part of Ulti´s Castle.

You do know that her house was beneath the Castle, right?

[Christmas]

Let´s even consider that Ulti uses the "absorbed into time" thingy.
And then revives Rinoa.But that would be a time loop.But it didn´t make sence.The loop would had to have a beggining somewhere.Even the one in which Ulti passed her powers to Rinoa had a beggining.

The loop begin when Ultimecia passed her powers to Edea.

And also I am neutral to the theory of R=U cause I am a simple minded person who think Ultimecia is just some random sorceress that received her powers in the future maybe passed down by Rinoa...


If she wasn´t at Edea´s house she was not Ulti.Duh.

Sorceress that had been to Edea's house had a probabilty of being Ultimecia? Where do you get this idea?


There is no real basis to say that(except Ellone which is Rinoa).
With more accuracy I can show you that Quistis and Selphie were sorceresses.

You say the whole "family line" theory and propagators based soley on your own deduction and also have no basis which you still can't prove a lot of things asked in other poll just like mine.



I believe Edea´s house is a ruin of a part of Ulti´s Castle.

The two place look entirely different and even so, it is just a PART of Ulti's Castle and may I know which part? And if you say it is the Master Room may I ask in which way it is similar? Both have Doors???

[Future Esthar]

Sorceress that had been to Edea's house had a probabilty of being Ultimecia? Where do you get this idea?


By Edea´s house I mean an area around the house.There is no proof that Sorceress Adel went to that area.So she can´t be Ulti.As I said Ulti´s time was on the past,not the future.


The two place look entirely different and even so, it is just a PART of Ulti's Castle and may I know which part? And if you say it is the Master Room may I ask in which way it is similar? Both have Doors???

That´s exactly what I thought Edea´s house is.The Master Room of Ulti´s Castle.And the tower is the lighthouse.I am thinking of something NOW.Maybe Ulti´s castle is buried.It get´s buried due to the geological disasters happening during the Lunar Cry.And Ulti managed to change it to deceive people.
This is actually a proof that Ulti lives on a far past.
Wanna to see how will you proof me wrong now.

[bipper]

I found this lying around the internet and thought i would post it here. The boys (or girls (or rabid alien subspicies?)) there really post good infor on games :)

Again - i take 0 credit for this post - just finding it :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimecia

Rinoa becomes a sorceress partway through the game. Sorceresses in the world of Final Fantasy VIII are prone to becoming evil and wreaking terrible destruction; at the time of the game, the world is just recovering from a conflict known as "the Sorceress War." Concerned, Rinoa goes to Edea Kramer, a former sorceress herself, for advice. Edea explains that sorceresses can easily become corrupted by their power, but that this can be avoided by relying on the support of friends. In particular, Edea advises Rinoa to find a knight who can offer her emotional support. Rinoa's love interest, Squall Leonhart, volunteers to be her knight.

Based on this conversation, one theory suggests that Ultimecia is actually a future version of Rinoa, driven mad by grief after Squall's death, who intends to compress time as a way of regaining her beloved. The theory is attractive because it provides Ultimecia with the depth, background, and motivation that many felt she lacked. However, all the alleged evidence for the theory is highly debatable, and it remains purely speculative. The most commonly cited arguments for the theory are discussed below.

* Edea looks significantly younger than her husband, Cid Kramer. Based on this, many players believe that sorceresses do not age. If this is true, Rinoa would almost inevitably outlive her "knight," leading to her becoming evil. However, the game actually makes it clear that sorceresses do in fact age - Edea was five years old when she became a sorceress, but is clearly an adult at the time of the game. It is possible that sorceresses age more slowly than ordinary humans, or that they age until adulthood and then stop. If this is true, though, then it seems extremely unusual that no one in the game - especially Edea herself - ever mentions it.

* Proponents of the theory often claim that Rinoa and Ultimecia have the same facial structure. However, this is highly subjective; many see no resemblance, or point out other characters in the game who look more alike.

* The theory's advocates often argue that the game says a sorceress must die in order to pass on her powers. Rinoa received her powers from Edea, yet Edea did not die. This mystery surrounding the source of Rinoa's powers is often used to suggest that somehow Rinoa must be Ultimecia. However, this argument is based on a misinterpretation. The game does not say a sorceress must die to pass on her powers; rather, it says that a sorceress must pass on her powers before she can die peacefully, which is not the same thing.

* Ultimecia has black feathered wings on her back. Rinoa has a design suggesting white angel's wings on the back of her duster, and ghostly white wings appear on her back when she goes into Angelwing, one of her limit breaks. However, Edea also has black feathers on her gown, and the Sorceress Adel has a wing-like structure on her back, so it's possible that wings are simply a symbol associated with sorceresses in general, rather than any particular sorceress.

* While on the Ragnarok with Squall, Rinoa says that she wishes time would stand still. Opponents of the theory point out that time, memory, and the importance of moving forward rather than clinging to the past are all major themes in the game, and that it's therefore not surprising if multiple characters voice similar sentiments.

* Rinoa and Squall promise one another that if they are ever separated, they will meet in the field of flowers next to Edea's cottage. Ultimecia's castle is located near the cottage, and proponents of the theory suggest that Ultimecia placed her palace there due to her hopes of finding Squall through time compression. Those opposed to the theory say this is simply coincidence, and point out that the castle must be located near the field of flowers to make possible the romantic scene in which Rinoa finds Squall there after the final battle.

* After becoming a sorceress, Rinoa worries about the possibility that she will become evil and her friends will be forced to fight her; "Squall's sword will pierce my heart," she says. Advocates of the theory interpret this as foreshadowing.

* Squall has a ring and pendant with the image of a stylized lion that he calls "Griever." He gives the ring to Rinoa during the game. In the final battle, Ultimecia summons a powerful Guardian Force - a winged lion named Griever. Some fans suggest that Ultimecia actually obtained Griever from Squall's ring; another GF in the game, Doomtrain, is obtained through an item called the Solomon Ring. However, this argument is contradicted by the original Japanese-language version of the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia actually draws Griever from within Squall's mind.

* In the game's ending FMV, the image of Ultimecia's face flashes quickly over Rinoa's face three times. This is the only FMV footage of Ultimecia in the entire game. However, it comes in a hallucination that contains a number of bizarre and unexplained images.

* The junctioning of GFs has the side effect of causing severe long-term memory loss. Proponents of the theory invoke this fact to explain why Ultimecia would attempt to kill Squall, her long-lost love, when he confronts her. However, while GFs do cause loss of conscious memories, it is clear that the memories are not completely destroyed, and that emotional reactions based on the lost memories remain. Squall's rivalry with Seifer and Quistis' crush on Squall are both caused by childhood events that Squall and Quistis have forgotten due to their GF use. However, Ultimecia shows no reaction at all to meeting either Squall or Rinoa. This fact is perhaps the strongest argument against the theory; the love story between Rinoa and Squall is a major focus of the game, and it seems highly unlikely that a future version of Rinoa would not react in some way to meeting her lost love.

Opponents of the theory point to an editorial posted on SquareX, the writer of which claims to have spoken with an unnamed source at Square who denies the connection. The veracity of this account, and the identity of the source, are unclear, and proponents of the theory have expressed doubts as to its authenticity.

--------
There ya have it... nothing solved! But now that what final fantasy is all about- leaving loose ends. (Er was i should say...damn sequals ;))
bip

Tucked this way back in the forums. I just wanted to point out that rinoa is increadibly weak and melodramatic without her friends - as she will be in the future before she becames ulti!

Also, the one angel with white wings taking the power of all the sorceresses?... hrm.. bearing all the evil or what not (sins) seems like another Passion to me :)

[Squall of SeeD]

Sorceress that had been to Edea's house had a probabilty of being Ultimecia? Where do you get this idea?


By Edea´s house I mean an area around the house.There is no proof that Sorceress Adel went to that area.So she can´t be Ulti.As I said Ulti´s time was on the past,not the future.

No one has said that Adel is Ultimecia, Future....




The two place look entirely different and even so, it is just a PART of Ulti's Castle and may I know which part? And if you say it is the Master Room may I ask in which way it is similar? Both have Doors???

That´s exactly what I thought Edea´s house is.The Master Room of Ulti´s Castle.And the tower is the lighthouse.I am thinking of something NOW.Maybe Ulti´s castle is buried.It get´s buried due to the geological disasters happening during the Lunar Cry.And Ulti managed to change it to deceive people.

You do realize that the lighthouse is not nearly that huge, right? And that Edea's house looks nothing like the Master Room? And that -- as I said earlier, but which you ignored -- Edea's House is beneath Ultimecia's Castle in the future?



This is actually a proof that Ulti lives on a far past. Wanna to see how will you proof me wrong now.

Because the game said so. There's proof enough. Also, if you'll recall, once Time Compression was initiated, the group had to focus on where they wanted to go, so unless you're telling us that they were too absent-minded to think about where they wanted to go and just got where they needed to be by luck, you've got no argument. You have no proof of anything. You know this. You've admitted to this. You yourself have admitted that your "theories" no more fit the canon storyline of this game than does random FanFiction.

Really, go argue with Kazushige Nojima, the writer, and tell him that the storyline he wove is wrong. First, he'll ask how you got in his house, and second he'll tell you to stay the smurf away from him while he phones the police. While you're waiting for them to arrive and escort you away, provided he's calm enough, I imagine he'd be more than happy to tell you that you're wrong.

Honestly, Future, this stuff doesn't "fit" the storyline of Final Fantasy VIII. You're talking as though what we see in the game was a skeleton of a story and that you're "fleshing it out." That's not how it works. The story we're shown in game is the fleshed-out story. Once again, the story was written with a specific intent in mind and the story itself is used to convey that intent. Take a writing class or something.

[bipper]

Realistically, Rinoa can't be Ulti. Remember what the doc in Back to the future says? I cant phrase it but if a person sees their future self - vs thier past self - BOOM - the galaxy unfolds -or- they feint. Luckily the docs second theory was right, and they merely feint.

Neither nor of these events happened - therefore it cannot be true.
But squall does smile and nothing ominous happens eaither... hrm...

Bipper goes

Yes, I do agree that Luke Skywaker was the evilest jedi ever:
My friend is trying to convince me
that any contractors working on the
uncompleted Death Star were innocent
victims when the space station was
destroyed by the rebels.
-RANDAL -clerks

[Christmas]

By Edea´s house I mean an area around the house.There is no proof that Sorceress Adel went to that area.So she can´t be Ulti.As I said Ulti´s time was on the past,not the future.

Now Ulti's time is in the past instead of the future..and BTW, there is also no proof that Adel didn't went to that area either.


That´s exactly what I thought Edea´s house is.The Master Room of Ulti´s Castle.And the tower is the lighthouse.I am thinking of something NOW.

Ya.Maybe,Ulti changed every single spot of the orphanage into her castle which look no way similar to the orphanage so how do Squall remember anything when it is no way similar to the orphanage.


Maybe Ulti´s castle is buried.It get´s buried due to the geological disasters happening during the Lunar Cry.And Ulti managed to change it to deceive people

And why didn't Ultimecia get buried along with her precious castle? And for this Maybe this Maybe that, why can't you make up your mind?


This is actually a proof that Ulti lives on a far past.
Wanna to see how will you proof me wrong now.

The proof you spoke of is only support by your deductions and nothing else. I could also say you owned me 1 million bucks and the proof is my words and my story and I could still say Ellone, Xu, Library girl and company could be Ultimecia since they could be sorceress and could have went to Edea's house and if you want to say I have no basis or anything, speak for yourself. (below)


You say the whole "family line" theory and propagators based soley on your own deduction and also have no basis which you still can't prove a lot of things asked in other poll just like mine.


And to Bipper. the info that you got from some website is exactly the SAME as the one on the previous page of this thread.......

[bipper]

Once again you are correct unkowns. And there is actaully solid proof! Oh well /shrug sorry for posting again

[Future Esthar]

To Squall of Seed:
1-We can´t see Edea´s house on the future.I just see some stange undefined wall that looks like a monster(don´t know what it is up to this day,but it´s not Edea´s house for sure).
2-The lighthouse looks small because we see it at a distance.We can even see a slope that gives access to it.
3-Ulti performs magic and it´s not difficult to turn the Master Room into Edea´s house.The master room has that curved triangular ceiling like Edea´s house(in this case there is no curveness).
4-Ulti was possessed and she turns her beatiful castle into a creppy one.And then when X wanna to pretend she was not he changed Ulti´s appearance to Edea´s and brought the creppy castle to normal.
5-I believe all the storyline is thruth.All the facts and graphical details were thruth.I believe that the characters say what they say.The difference is in the way I interpret it.We can either interpret it litteraly(i.e assume all the characters are telling the thruth and all events were what they seem) or non literally (i.e interpret that not all characters tell the thruth and some events or graphical details can be manipulated even though they were there).How many times do I have to say that?

To Unknowns:

1-Squall remembers the events before Time Compression and the ones in Time Compression at the orphanage.
Before time compression Squall had being in love for Rinoa,Ulti´s daughter.That way he meets Ulti and her castle.I think Ulti was not possessed at this time.Then Ulti was possessed along with Seifer,an era later,Rinoa and Squall were possessed,another era later Quistis and Zell were possessed,and yet another year later Selphie and Irvine were possessed.Then they were accursed and become ONE and powerful sorceress which rests many years and at the right time ruled over Galbadia from Timber.Their powers also crossed into a great sorceress power.
But before Rinoa was possessed she and Squall were to promise.
But she accidentally used her ablity which deceived her into think that she has already promised (confused her memory with what she sees in her visions).They were to promise.It was destiny.So she then sends her counscience through space because she went to the flower field but don´t find Squall.Then accidentaly it goes to many different eras.She is looking for Squall.She then starts to paint some of her visions on the art gallery.
X knows it and decides to send his/her consciousness to the past again.
In Ulti´s body X sees the paintings on the gallery and his/her suspicions get confirmed.
It is here that X performs Time Compression.
Through this X changes the destiny of Squall & company.
Instead of being a dinasty of Centra kings they all were get to an orphanage on Ulti´s time (a little later).
Then she uses a pawn to construct a military academy so she can control SeeD(SorcErEss Dinasty),She then make them fall into a trap on Galbadia and they were sent to a prision sealed against Elle´s powers where she wanna to made them lose memory,possess them and accurse them as she does before Time Compression.Fortunately she fails this time and they escaped.
It means there is more than one dimension of destiny.There are many possible outcomes for destiny.
And it seems one person living on one of these dimensions can remember everything that happened on other dimensions.
2a-X is the responsible for every Lunar Cry.The Lunar cry is needed for Time Compression to succeed.
2b-Since Ulti was on the master room she don´t get buried.Only the lower parts of the castle were buried.

[crazybayman]

To Squall of Seed:
1-We can´t see Edea´s house on the future.I just see some stange undefined wall that looks like a monster(don´t know what it is up to this day,but it´s not Edea´s house for sure).
That wall is just a barrier that prevents you from entering Edea's house. Its around all the towns, I think (at least I remember seeing it around Balamb, too).

I figure its just to prevent you from entering the towns during compressed time, which the programmers (oh no, logical reasoning!!!!!) probably did, because (a)they didn't want to program the towns during compressed time, maybe due to the fact it would create too many plot-holes, or (b) the towns would be immensly smurfed up due time compression or (c) no more smurfing around with side-quests (hey, maybe Zell would want to get l@id with the library chick in the past, present & future), time to just finish the d@mn game!

Or Retarded Alternate Ending:
Maybe its an explosion at each town and dwelling, that Ultimecia created to destroy all inhabitants of the world.

Or
Maybe its a barrier all the townspeople created to fend off Ultimecia

Or
Maybe Jean-Luc Picard on the USS Enterprise showed up in orbit due to an automatic destress call by the Ragnarok and he's beaming all the towns up to safety

Or
Maybe Osama Bin Laden showed up and fired Nukes at all the towns, so he and Ultimecia can live happily ever after

Or
Maybe its a ruse (like a Ninja's smoke bomb) that all the towns people set, while they dig underground, searching for the lifestream, and the power to defeat Ultimecia

Or
etc
etc
etc......

Something tells me its something along the lines of my first guess :)

[Wuggly Blight]

The area Edas house is in is part of a larger older people. There is the Ruins nearby and if you did the mini-quest there is ruins in the nearby forest too of another city. Edeas house is far more likley just apart of this nations ruins, thats all.

[liamo]

its just a barrier around all the towns and places that you can visit. there is no real reason given for it in the game. they're just there nothing really much you can do about it.

[CaladBolgLionHeart]

To Squall of Seed:
1-We can´t see Edea´s house on the future.I just see some stange undefined wall that looks like a monster(don´t know what it is up to this day,but it´s not Edea´s house for sure).
That wall is just a barrier that prevents you from entering Edea's house. Its around all the towns, I think (at least I remember seeing it around Balamb, too).

I figure its just to prevent you from entering the towns during compressed time, which the programmers (oh no, logical reasoning!!!!!) probably did, because (a)they didn't want to program the towns during compressed time, maybe due to the fact it would create too many plot-holes, or (b) the towns would be immensly smurfed up due time compression or (c) no more smurfing around with side-quests (hey, maybe Zell would want to get l@id with the library chick in the past, present & future), time to just finish the d@mn game!

Or Retarded Alternate Ending:
Maybe its an explosion at each town and dwelling, that Ultimecia created to destroy all inhabitants of the world.

Or
Maybe its a barrier all the townspeople created to fend off Ultimecia

Or
Maybe Jean-Luc Picard on the USS Enterprise showed up in orbit due to an automatic destress call by the Ragnarok and he's beaming all the towns up to safety

Or
Maybe Osama Bin Laden showed up and fired Nukes at all the towns, so he and Ultimecia can live happily ever after

Or
Maybe its a ruse (like a Ninja's smoke bomb) that all the towns people set, while they dig underground, searching for the lifestream, and the power to defeat Ultimecia

Or
etc
etc
etc......

Something tells me its something along the lines of my first guess :)
ROTFLMAO. crazybayman has just earned my respect. Who else wants it?

[Abraxas]

I have the impression that Future Esthar is just having fun... making his imagination fly as we speak.

It must be... right?
Let me know I'm right! For our sanity!

[Destai]

All of your evidence proves nothing. It doesnt even prove that its possible. And theres absaloutely no reason or support for your theory. Your theory is impossible.

[Future Esthar]

The area Edas house is in is part of a larger older people. There is the Ruins nearby and if you did the mini-quest there is ruins in the nearby forest too of another city. Edeas house is far more likley just apart of this nations ruins, thats all.

Exactly.Which means Edea was a queen over Centra before the Lunar cry.


I have the impression that Future Esthar is just having fun... making his imagination fly as we speak.

It must be... right?
Let me know I'm right! For our sanity!

Exactly.But I am also serious in trying to find the thruth.


It doesnt even prove that its possible

Oh yeah.Sure they can´t proof it.But they can proof it´s possible.Otherwise show me wrong.
And why my theory is impossible?.Show me why.If you tell it it´s because you know why.
Just give-me a little example.You don´t need to comment it all.

To Crazybayman and it´s fan:

What funny.This time it is you the one who contradict what we see in the game.
The world of FF8 we see in the 4rt disc is not in Ulti´s time.This idea directly contradicts what we see in the game.
Let me explain.
1-We really don´t see any castle near Edea´s house.
Since Ulti´s castle is near as big as G-Garden and we saw it on the map,smallness is not an excuse.
2-The barrier itself it´s not an excuse.Ulti´s castle would be outside it since it don´t reaches the sea.So it was not an effect of the barrier.
3-Edea´s house is not there when you are not on the world map(WM).
What we see is a monster like wall.Something difficult do define.I was not referring to the energy barrier here.
But in the WM Edea´s house is there.That´s strange.
4-Many generations is at least more than four.
This is enough time to have significative changes on the cities,even boundary changes.By the way we can see the inner shape of the cities even with the barrier.
5-Why surround Edea´s house with an energy wall if it leads to Ulti´s castle?

I never saw the portals as teleporters but as time traveling devices.

[Destai]

The area Edas house is in is part of a larger older people. There is the Ruins nearby and if you did the mini-quest there is ruins in the nearby forest too of another city. Edeas house is far more likley just apart of this nations ruins, thats all.

Exactly.Which means Edea was a queen over Centra before the Lunar cry.


I have the impression that Future Esthar is just having fun... making his imagination fly as we speak.

It must be... right?
Let me know I'm right! For our sanity!

Exactly.But I am also serious in trying to find the thruth.


It doesnt even prove that its possible

Oh yeah.Sure they can´t proof it.But they can proof it´s possible.Otherwise show me wrong.
And why my theory is impossible?.Show me why.If you tell it it´s because you know why.
Just give-me a little example.You don´t need to comment it all.Well you see you dont seem to know what a theory actually is. And though Im the one who pointed out long ago that you were just trying to irritate people by taking your theories seriously though you yourself know theyre not true, A theory needs to have some evidence to suggest that the theory is true. Plus I havent read your theories in a while so I dont know which one to comment on. Anyway this talk of wanting to find the truth seems like Bull.

[Future Esthar]

I am really sure that almost all of my theories were thruth.
It´s not the case that I know they are not true.Really.
I am not the type of person who would present theories which I know aren´t thruth just to irritate people.
In fact I did this with a few of them but just a little few.But it was not to irritate people.In fact it was the opposite(the truth would irritate the people).

[crazybayman]

FE, you still don't make any sense. The say the things you assume you can't prove to be false.....well you can't prove them to be true either!!

I'll bet that you're the ONLY one who thinks that those barriers around the orphanage, and the towns are some kind of monster :rolleyes2 .

I can barely understand what your saying, anyway. You seem to be arguing with my point, which was pure sarcasm btw, but of course you couldn't even get that. :p

Stay off the crack.

[Christmas]

-Squall remembers the events before Time Compression and the ones in Time Compression at the orphanage.

So he just kept quiet about it and didn't reveal it?


Before time compression Squall had being in love for Rinoa,Ulti´s daughter.That way he meets Ulti and her castle.I think Ulti was not possessed at this time.Then Ulti was possessed along with Seifer,an era later,Rinoa and Squall were possessed,another era later Quistis and Zell were possessed,and yet another year later Selphie and Irvine were possessed.Then they were accursed and become ONE and powerful sorceress which rests many years and at the right time ruled over Galbadia from Timber.Their powers also crossed into a great sorceress power.
But before Rinoa was possessed she and Squall were to promise.
But she accidentally used her ablity which deceived her into think that she has already promised (confused her memory with what she sees in her visions).They were to promise.It was destiny.So she then sends her counscience through space because she went to the flower field but don´t find Squall.Then accidentaly it goes to many different eras.She is looking for Squall.She then starts to paint some of her visions on the art gallery.
X knows it and decides to send his/her consciousness to the past again.
In Ulti´s body X sees the paintings on the gallery and his/her suspicions get confirmed.
It is here that X performs Time Compression.
Through this X changes the destiny of Squall & company.Instead of being a dinasty of Centra kings they all were get to an orphanage on Ulti´s time (a little later).
Then she uses a pawn to construct a military academy so she can control SeeD(SorcErEss Dinasty),She then make them fall into a trap on Galbadia and they were sent to a prision sealed against Elle´s powers where she wanna to made them lose memory,possess them and accurse them as she does before Time Compression.Fortunately she fails this time and they escaped.

Look, this one is already been posted in other thread(that important poll thread) of yours and I asked several questions which no answers came out of it.



It means there is more than one dimension of destiny.There are many possible outcomes for destiny.
And it seems one person living on one of these dimensions can remember everything that happened on other dimensions.

Just what is this "dimension of Destiny" thing? and how come people living in this dimension can remember everything that happened on other dimensions.


2a-X is the responsible for every Lunar Cry.The Lunar cry is needed for Time Compression to succeed.

Oh, really. You are just going to insist on it without any proof again?And Lunar Cry and time compression is two different thing. We dun have random sorceress popping out of nowhere to fight you during the Lunar Cry.


2b-Since Ulti was on the master room she don´t get buried.Only the lower parts of the castle were buried

And I can say that Ultimecia go take a walk in her castle and what basis can you say she is ALWAYS in the master room. Do she like to confine herself to her room ?

This is the similiar question I asked in your other thread but since there is some more add on "features" now.

Now X can time travel, use time compression and cause Lunar Cry.
Why in the world do he/she need Ellone?????????
And if you say he/she wanted to prevent Ellone from letting Squall and CO see the past, this won't valid since you say Squall remembered everything and also in the GAME Ellone is NEEDED to perform time compression not TO BE CAPTURED AND EXTERMINATED so that "X" will succeed.
Dun tell me the game lie AGAIN??????
Then why are you alway the bearer of the truth while the game is nothing but a pack of lies?

[Future Esthar]

Lunar cry and TC are different things.But Lunar cry is necessary so that X´s plans through TC suceed.Ah and there was no time compression after you defeat Adel.
And since X is responsible to the Lunar cry of course Ulti is smart enough to be at the master room when it happens.She will not fall for her own trap will she?
Don´t see what were the questions.Can you post them again?
Squall don´t remember everything at once.He remember as long as time passes.One time he remembers this,then on another time that,etc...
He just have the flashback of the master room when he approaches it.

[crazybayman]

Don´t see what were the questions.Can you post them again?
Why don't you just go back and find them. Especially since you decided to ignore them the first time around, its up to you to go back and find them.

The reason why I pipe up and say this is because you haven't really addressed any questions properly, thus not further backing your theories. Thus it seems you are just avoiding questions that you can't answer, because your theories are just completely bogus, just based on your imagination, rather than the game.

You claim that they can't be proven false, well prove that they're true.

[Christmas]

Lunar cry and TC are different things.But Lunar cry is necessary so that X´s plans through TC suceed.Ah and there was no time compression after you defeat Adel.

I dun see any link between Lunar cry and time compression.


and there was no time compression after you defeat Adel.

ya, the galbadian made this out as told in other thread but so, where do those random sorceress popped out from? Alright, you are just going to shift the responsiblty to "X" and say he caused it too?


And since X is responsible to the Lunar cry of course Ulti is smart enough to be at the master room when it happens.She will not fall for her own trap will she?

Look, X caused Lunar Cry just to bury a stupid castle and make it look like an orphanage. This I must admit is pretty lame and why didn't "X" just scrap the castle and use magic to make an orphanage since Ulti do so for her castle.



Don´t see what were the questions.Can you post them again?

THEY WERE ON THE "IMPORTANT POLL" THREAD, GO READ THE THREAD.

And you have the tendency to avoid questions and just answer one question out of for example ten then ignored the rest.

[Sir Bahamut]

To everyone arguing with Future Esthar, don't you understand how pointless it is? None of his theories are even close to the realm of possibility, and the only reason he keeps coming up with them is because people argue back.

Just let him think whatever he wants.

[Future Esthar]

ya, the galbadian made this out as told in other thread but so, where do those random sorceress popped out from? Alright, you are just going to shift the responsiblty to "X" and say he caused it too?

This one is interesting.Lunatic Pandora time travels when the characters reach the bottom.As long as it time travels we start to battle against Rinoa then against Quistis then against Selphie (and in the end against Ulti=Edea).
When we consider the eyes genetics we have Edea->Selphie->Quistis->Rinoa in cronological order.
Everything gets logical.

If I change my theory about the "Seed" generation (Edea->Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie) to the genetic one (Edea->Selphie-> Quistis->Rinoa)
my theories were still right with the exception that Rinoa is not Ulti´s daughter but bi-granddaughter.The rest of the theory remains.
And it´s not impossible for Rinoa to exist on Ulti´s time (maybe sorceresses don´t even age the same manner as humans because they were propagators).

A dimension of destiny is an universe where a certain event unfolds.
But the same event unfolds differently in different universes.
For exemple in an universe we have that Joseph borns,goes to school enter on Oxford,etc...
But someone can came from the future and change Joseph´s destiny.
Someone can kidnapp him and take him to a forest on Africa where he will grow with the animals.
These two life´s can coexist on Joseph but only on different universes which I call dimensions of destiny.

[Christmas]

This one is interesting.Lunatic Pandora time travels when the characters reach the bottom.As long as it time travels we start to battle against Rinoa then against Quistis then against Selphie (and in the end against Ulti=Edea).
When we consider the eyes genetics we have Edea->Selphie->Quistis->Rinoa in cronological order.
Everything gets logical.

If I change my theory about the "Seed" generation (Edea->Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie) to the genetic one (Edea->Selphie-> Quistis->Rinoa)
my theories were still right with the exception that Rinoa is not Ulti´s daughter but bi-granddaughter.The rest of the theory remains.
And it´s not impossible for Rinoa to exist on Ulti´s time (maybe sorceresses don´t even age the same manner as humans because they were propagators).
(to be edited)

Hey handsome, I just realized something you know. I feel like I am the idiot being toy around by you and helping you make CORRECTIONS to your theory.

Look, we are not help to correct your theory until you can come up with a flawless one. It is just like you posted today and tommorrow someone rebuttle on your theory and you realized your theory can't work but you insisted that it must work, so you just quickly amend it and post a different one.

[Future Esthar]

That´s why I debate on the forums.Because I am humble enough to accept others opinions and to recognize that I need others opinions to evolve some of my theories.See no problem with that.I am here to tell and TO LEARN.
You were the ones who hadn´t realized it yet.

Let me tell you a secret.
Time Compression and Lunar Cry were not magics(I think the last one is obvious).
Time Compression is not a sort of magic.
It is something that gives a lot of work and headaches to X.It don´t happened instantaneously.It was prepared and when X decides to activate it he activated Lunar Cry to create confusion so that the simple effect of Time Compression would be thought as magic.But of course this was not the only objectif of time compression.

Crazybayman,the monster type wall is not the energy barrier.
The monster type wall is what you see when you are near Ulti´s castle (wilderness).It´s on the place where Squall says "Future Seed´s,we had fight her for generations" or something like that.It´s not on the world map.
By the way,I showed you that the world map we see on the 4rt disc is not on Ulti´s time.
That would be in direct contradiction with what we see in the game.

Good to see you came from vacances,Sir Bahamut.
And even if you ignore my theories I will post new ones.

[Christmas]

So in the end it is us that create the theory of yours is it?
Oh my, what a sin....and BTW, I am not here to teach you anything but just point out what is wrong so that you realize it is wrong.

And Time Compression is a time MAGIC as stated in the game but since you dun believe in anything in the game, just treat this as a reference.


A dimension of destiny is an universe where a certain event unfolds.
But the same event unfolds differently in different universes.
For exemple in an universe we have that Joseph borns,goes to school enter on Oxford,etc...
But someone can came from the future and change Joseph´s destiny.
Someone can kidnapp him and take him to a forest on Africa where he will grow with the animals.
These two life´s can coexist on Joseph but only on different universes which I call dimensions of destiny

Look, if that someone kidnap Joseph from the past into the future so that's mean Joseph no more existed in the past. So if Joseph went to Oxford and got kidnapped to the future into the jungle so in the past Joseph is missing.

So what in the world do you mean by coexisting and dimension of destiny?

And mind just posting all at one shot instead of posting halfway then add on.

[Discord]

I know that advertising is bad, but just for the sake of an experiment, vote on what you think is the TRUTH here (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1223598#post1223598).

[Future Esthar]

You don´t understand.He is kidnapped while he was a baby.

[crazybayman]

To everyone arguing with Future Esthar, don't you understand how pointless it is? None of his theories are even close to the realm of possibility, and the only reason he keeps coming up with them is because people argue back.

Just let him think whatever he wants.
Good point.

[Christmas]

You don´t understand.He is kidnapped while he was a baby.

How in the world do he get to Oxford if he is kidnapped when he is a baby? Dun tell me it is the same with the Edea=Julia thingy? Be creative....


And I can say that Ultimecia go take a walk in her castle and what basis can you say she is ALWAYS in the master room. Do she like to confine herself to her room ?

This is the similiar question I asked in your other thread but since there is some more add on "features" now.

Now X can time travel, use time compression and cause Lunar Cry.
Why in the world do he/she need Ellone?????????
And if you say he/she wanted to prevent Ellone from letting Squall and CO see the past, this won't valid since you say Squall remembered everything and also in the GAME Ellone is NEEDED to perform time compression not TO BE CAPTURED AND EXTERMINATED so that "X" will succeed.
Dun tell me the game lie AGAIN??????
Then why are you alway the bearer of the truth while the game is nothing but a pack of lies?

And you choose to ignore questions again.

[Future Esthar]

Look, dimensions of destiny were an opposite idea from time loops.
In this case the events happening on an universe A can be altered which will produce an universe B where the events will happen differently.
This universes I call dimensions of destiny.
Sir Bahamut is good with this things.You can ask him.

And I already answered all that questions,Unknowns.

[Christmas]

Look, dimensions of destiny were an opposite idea from time loops.
In this case the events happening on an universe A can be altered which will produce an universe B where the events will happen differently.
This universes I call dimensions of destiny.
Sir Bahamut is good with this things.You can ask him.

And I already answered all that questions,Unknowns.

Alright, forget abput the dimension of destiny thingy.

You just give an example as an answer to all the questions in the other thread and I proved your example wrong.

Even if you insisted that Ellone is Rinoa in the screenshot, then what about the other stuff that you say that can be proved by graphical details?

And you still didn't answer the questions in my previous posts as shown in the quote.

[Future Esthar]

I answered them.Let me revive your memory.
"Since X possess Ulti and is responsible to the Lunar Cry Ulti obviously will be at the master room.She will not fall for her trap."
"Squall and company remembers thing with time.They don´t remember all the things at the same time".
Which means Ulti wanna to prevent Elle to enable them to see the past.
X just needs to seal Ellone´s powers.He don´t need do destroy her.

By the way do you remember me telling that X wanna to turn Squall and company into a single sorceress?
From now on I will call this sorceress Y to make things simple.

[Christmas]

I answered them.Let me revive your memory.
"Since X possess Ulti and is responsible to the Lunar Cry Ulti obviously will be at the master room.She will not fall for her trap."
"Squall and company remembers thing with time.They don´t remember all the things at the same time".
Which means Ulti wanna to prevent Elle to enable them to see the past.

By the way do you remember me telling that X wanna to turn Squall and company into a single sorceress?
From now on I will call this sorceress Y to make things simple.

Ok. Look, I rebuttled your theories and you just say that some part of almost every part of the game is a lie.

Then you say you can prove your theory by graphical details and events then you give an example.

I rebuttled your example and you say the two screenshot of Rinoa=Ellone is proof.

Both Xaven and I dun agree on what is on the screenshot but if you insisted that is truth, very well,

But what about the rest of the theory which you say can be backed up by graphical details?

And mind if you answer those questions on the thread itself on not on this one.


X just needs to seal Ellone´s powers.He don´t need do destroy her.

Like the game say, she is NEEDED for TIME COMPRESSION and not sealed but you will just say it is a lie anyway.

BTW, you haven't answer the questions on the "wonder how people didn't notice this thread" and the sorceress popping out of nowhere.

[Future Esthar]

Yes I answered.
When the characters reach the bottom of Lunatic Pandora it time travels.
Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.
The pandora goes to the past until it get´s to Ulti´s(Edea´s) time.
It´s logical to me.
Don´t you remember this is exactly the way the dinasty goes when the eyes genetics is taken into consideration.

[Christmas]

Yes I answered.
When the characters reach the bottom of Lunatic Pandora it time travels.

This one isn't valid since you can't explain how do those sorceress just pop out of nowhere to attack you and since you explained they are actually Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis as I should say they look no where alike(you are going to say their looks deform due to black magic aren't you?) and there is more than just three sorceress you battled along the way.


Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.


The pandora goes to the past until it get´s to Ulti´s(Edea´s) time.
It´s logical to me.
Don´t you remember this is exactly the way the dinasty goes when the eyes genetics is taken into consideration.

You also have no proof of how is the Centra Civilization is like and what make you think they are ruled by kings and queens?

And if the pandora is the time machine that take them to Ulti's time, then where is the pandora after Squall and CO reached Ulti's time. WHy can't we see it?

[SquallxLeon]

I answered them.Let me revive your memory.
"Since X possess Ulti and is responsible to the Lunar Cry Ulti obviously will be at the master room.She will not fall for her trap."
"Squall and company remembers thing with time.They don´t remember all the things at the same time".
Which means Ulti wanna to prevent Elle to enable them to see the past.
X just needs to seal Ellone´s powers.He don´t need do destroy her.

By the way do you remember me telling that X wanna to turn Squall and company into a single sorceress?
From now on I will call this sorceress Y to make things simple.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Dr. Odine explain how Ultimecia needed Ellone's powers to go further into the past. Ultimecia is currently using Dr. Odine's ... ' machine that mimics ellone's powers ' and thats how she sends her consiciousness into the past while leaving her body in the present. However that machine as Dr. Odine said has it's limits in how far it can go back. Therefore Ultimecia must NEED Ellone not seal her, in order to go further back. Besides Ellone can only see the past of people she knows.

[Future Esthar]

This one isn't valid since you can't explain how do those sorceress just pop out of nowhere to attack you and since you explained they are actually Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis as I should say they look no where alike(you are going to say their looks deform due to black magic aren't you?) and there is more than just three sorceress you battled along the way.

They DO look alike.
The first sorceress not only dress blue but has long black hair and seems young.
The second sorceress dresses a cloth with different colors but they are all in the yellow tonality.Also the sorceress seems older,experienced and mature like Quistis which is an instructor.The third sorceress is the one which is more difficult to see the similarities.This happens because she is near her Propagator form.Look at her arms and you will see similarities with the propagator ones.I will come back to this one.The fourth one is Ulti which I theorized that she was Edea.I will try to show evidence of that with time.
A sorceress can appear many times.But it doesn´t mean they were different sorceresses.Since they are equal they should be the same.
Basically X possessed these sorceresses while the Pandora time travels to kick SeeD ass.

And if the pandora is the time machine that take them to Ulti's time, then where is the pandora after Squall and CO reached Ulti's time. WHy can't we see it?

This is in fact the proof that the Pandora time travels because the world map we see in the fourth disc is not on Ulti´s time (to say it is is to be in direct contradiction with what we see in the game).
But when you are on Ulti´s time(not on the world map) you note there is a limited freedom of movement due to the fact that The Pandora surrounds the castle.The walls also create the "cloud movement" film.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Dr. Odine explain how Ultimecia needed Ellone's powers to go further into the past. Ultimecia is currently using Dr. Odine's ... ' machine that mimics ellone's powers ' and thats how she sends her consiciousness into the past while leaving her body in the present. However that machine as Dr. Odine said has it's limits in how far it can go back. Therefore Ultimecia must NEED Ellone not seal her, in order to go further back. Besides Ellone can only see the past of people she knows.

Don´t get confused,please.What I said was not a part of game´s walkthrough but a theory of mine on what really happens.

[Xaven]

Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.

Don't you remember me explaining how it is an impossibility for any main character to be a child of Rinoa? *sigh* If you're going to tear this game apart looking for evidence of your theories, then I shall do the same to prove my views.

Okay, let me show you AGAIN.

I'm not going to touch anything on the hair genetics as I am not as familiar with it verses eye color traits.

Rinoa = B,B (Dark brown on the verge of black)
Squall = b,b (Blue)
Child = B,b; B,b; B,b; B,b (A moderate, light brown)

Brown (B) is the dominant trait over blue (b). Any possible combination of genes from Rinoa and Squall (or any other male for that matter) would result in the offspring having at least one Brown gene and thus, a shade of brown eyes. None of the main characters have brown eyes.

The reverse also holds true. Rinoa can not be the offspring of any of the main characters. No one else has even a single Brown gene (You witnessed this yourself.) and Rinoa has two!

Also, Selphie can not be the child of Quistis and Zell as neither of them have even one Semi-dominant (U) gene. However, Seifer has a U gene, so Selphie could be the child of Edea and Seifer, but that would require you changing your theory... again.

We already covered this and you just blew it off last time.

[Christmas]

Art galleries don´t need to have pictures related to each other.That´s why they are art.

So then why did you insist the "watchman", "love" and "red clothes" are related to each other?


Julia don´t die.Deling made it look like she was dead but she was not.He uses media to confuse people

You once say she died and got buried in dingo desert then deling came along and revive her with magic now she didn't die?

Do you know realize what you have been doing? You just keep taking back the every words you spoke and replace their after you got rebuttled and this is not the first time you did this.

And no this is not call learning from us,the non open minded(or open minded in a small aspect) and "whatever "members you claimed.

We are here to point out what is wrong and let you realize your mistakes.Unlike what you are doing now, you insisted that your theory must be correct and must be the truth no matter what despite that it is not the only one or two flaws that surfaced. And if someone rebuttled, you just quickly cover up the flaw and claimed that you are learning, but in truth trying to save your own pride.

Your so call seek for truth is just something to turn your theory into a flawless one which is originally full of flaws at the very foundation of the theroy itself. And if the foundation is rotten, no matter how you cover it, it will not prevent people to see the rot. We are not primary school teachers here to correct your compositions so that you can write better next time you know.

And why did he revive her so that she will kill him in the future? ("X" again aren't you?)


In fact Laguna recognizes Edea was Julia but keep it silent(according to his watchman personality).

And how do you know this and I interpret the watchmen differently from yours so you can't use the portrait as proof since there are different interpretations.


This could as well be a fanfiction that tells what the writer intended when he created the story.

I must say you are not FIT to say this statement non anyone than the writer himself or someone that the writer recognized. Do you know that by saying reflect on your arrogant and how you are so full of yourself on your theory when you cannot even prove it and just by all those words you claimed logic supported by nothing then your mouth.


Exactly.But the information at the tutorial is not supposed to be something that the author intended.It represents a summary of the current knowledge people gains in the game.

It is the HISTORY and TRUTH of what is about the game or else it will not appear in there if it is meant to confuse people. The current knowledge gained by the people in the game is what is told by the game itself so it make sense that it is the truth and what the author wanted everyone to know.


Look,their real identities as Propagators shows up when their are possessed.X uses all their potentialities when he possess them.

You said they are propagators just based on the deformed hand of Edea which is caused by the practice of black magic which you admit than later went back on your words once again as usual. And some monsters in the game have deformed body parts too so Edea and gang is related to those monsters? Also the practice of black magic is concrete proof from the Game Guide which Square sell for a living. Do you think Square will post lies inside and take the risks of losing it income when you unreveal the truth?

And if Edea is proven propagator by her hand, then what about the others?


Their sorceress abilities come from the fact that they are Propagators.The transformations we see in the game were parcial though.
If they transform tottally we would see them in the form of Propagators.


No, they are not and this link is the proof:

http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/1941/sorceress21go.th.png (http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sorceress21go.png)

This link is directly taken from the tutorial and you can't say it is lie as I proved the tutorial is the truth and you are not in the position to claim the tutorial is a lie anyway.

Also we dun see any of them transforming into propagator in the game except from you of course. And since you see what is claim parcial, post a screenshot like you alway rely on graphical details.


There is no real basis to say that(except Ellone which is Rinoa).
With more accuracy I can show you that Quistis and Selphie were sorceresses.

Your so called accuracy is still not valid and the genes is one of the problem that bring down what you call accuracy.


By Edea´s house I mean an area around the house.There is no proof that Sorceress Adel went to that area.So she can´t be Ulti.As I said Ulti´s time was on the past,not the future.

And you can't say Adel didn't go there either. There are a lot of questions like this which you can't say is right and wrong so this can't be used as a point and along with several and I can point out that there might be other sorceress hiding in the world as stated below:

http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/1941/sorceress21go.th.png (http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sorceress21go.png)




2a-X is the responsible for every Lunar Cry.The Lunar cry is needed for Time Compression to succeed.
2b-Since Ulti was on the master room she don´t get buried.Only the lower parts of the castle were buried

Once again I will say this is really "stories" to me since I can also say I am responsible for every Lunar cry and I am the one behind all this plot. Every tiny little things that you found hard to cover, you shifted them to "X" which I claimed to be Hyne/Yu Yevon.


Instead of being a dinasty of Centra kings they all were get to an orphanage on Ulti´s time
Exactly.Which means Edea was a queen over Centra before the Lunar cry.


Once again, there is no telling how the Centra is ruled as told in the game with a link provided to support it not to say Edea is a queen too that is since I claimed myself as the Emperess of the Centra Empire. :D
Anyone want to be my subjects? :p

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/743/centra3zs.th.png (http://img324.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centra3zs.png)


Exactly.But I am also serious in trying to find the thruth.

You dun seem to be seeking the truth but making a flawless "theory" by "amending" it each time people rebuttled.


Oh yeah.Sure they can´t proof it.But they can proof it´s possible.Otherwise show me wrong.

You were the one that say you no need proof for theories and once again you want people to prove it to you? Just how many time you just eat back your words? Aren't you afraid you might get unbalanced digestion for such an unhealthy diet? And we did show prove which you just claim they are lies or just quickly took back your words like now. But even we can't proof it, you cannot proof it possible either.
There is not only wrong or right in this world like black and white. There is alway a grey spot in the middle.


And why my theory is impossible?.Show me why.If you tell it it´s because you know why.
Just give-me a little example.You don´t need to comment it all.

By all the points I pointed up from your first threads to this one and several unanswered questions you claimed you have answered.
if you want more of my example, go search my posts on your thread.


I am really sure that almost all of my theories were thruth.It´s not the case that I know they are not true.Really.
I am not the type of person who would present theories which I know aren´t thruth just to irritate people.
In fact I did this with a few of them but just a little few.But it was not to irritate people.In fact it was the opposite

Truth need to be proven and supported with facts and proofs especially with those that came from the game itself which you claimed they are lying which your theories dun except for those rumblings that you made which is just what you think is logicial and supported with nothing rather than your words.And once again you are also not FIT to make such a statement unless Square recognize it as the TRUTH or this is just your pure deduction.

No fan-based theory is truth unless proven so pls dun be so full of yourself and you do know that it us that point out your flaws which you secretly went to cover it up and claimed credit for yourself.


(the truth would irritate the people)

That is why you refuse to accept the truth and create a dream world for yourself which you claimed to be the truth


Squall don´t remember everything at once.He remember as long as time passes.One time he remembers this,then on another time that,etc...
He just have the flashback of the master room when he approaches it.

When is this happening and how come no one knew it except the bearer of truth that is you. And we dun see any flashback when a Squall approach the master room.


X just needs to seal Ellone´s powers.He don´t need do destroy her

Like I repeat myself which you left answered as usual for some mysterious reasons :Like the game say, she is NEEDED for TIME COMPRESSION and not sealed


They DO look alike.
The first sorceress not only dress blue but has long black hair and seems young.
The second sorceress dresses a cloth with different colors but they are all in the yellow tonality.Also the sorceress seems older,experienced and mature like Quistis which is an instructor.The third sorceress is the one which is more difficult to see the similarities.This happens because she is near her Propagator form.Look at her arms and you will see similarities with the propagator ones.I will come back to this one.The fourth one is Ulti which I theorized that she was Edea.I will try to show evidence of that with time.


FOR ALL GAMERS OUT THERE, FRANKLY SPEAKING, DO ANYONE THINK THE RANDOM SORCERESS THAT YOU FOUGHT DURING TIME COMPRESSION LOOK ANYWHERE ALIKE TO RINOA, QUISTIS AND SELPHIE????


A sorceress can appear many times.But it doesn´t mean they were different sorceresses.Since they are equal they should be the same.
Basically X possessed these sorceresses while the Pandora time travels to kick SeeD ass.

And who told you this? A fairy godmother or the seven dwarfs? If the same sorceress can appear many time, why didn't Adel just keep coming back instead of those freaks? And for your info they are not equal.


Don´t get confused,please.What I said was not a part of game´s walkthrough but a theory of mine on what really happens.

Once again, you still can't claim it to be truth oh mightly one and this is no theory at least from my POV. Wonder why ppl take the effort to write the walkthrough only to be ruined by you.

And Xaven's eyes genetic and my hair genetics dun apply and you avoided the questions once again for some unknown reason.

[sparkie]

Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.

Don't you remember me explaining how it is an impossibility for any main character to be a child of Rinoa? *sigh* If you're going to tear this game apart looking for evidence of your theories, then I shall do the same to prove my views.

Okay, let me show you AGAIN.

I'm not going to touch anything on the hair genetics as I am not as familiar with it verses eye color traits.

Rinoa = B,B (Dark brown on the verge of black)
Squall = b,b (Blue)
Child = B,b; B,b; B,b; B,b (A moderate, light brown)

Brown (B) is the dominant trait over blue (b). Any possible combination of genes from Rinoa and Squall (or any other male for that matter) would result in the offspring having at least one Brown gene and thus, a shade of brown eyes. None of the main characters have brown eyes.

The reverse also holds true. Rinoa can not be the offspring of any of the main characters. No one else has even a single Brown gene (You witnessed this yourself.) and Rinoa has two!

Also, Selphie can not be the child of Quistis and Zell as neither of them have even one Semi-dominant (U) gene. However, Seifer has a U gene, so Selphie could be the child of Edea and Seifer, but that would require you changing your theory... again.

We already covered this and you just blew it off last time.

Ok I haven't posted yet but I thought this was important since I'm apparently a genetic mutation. My mother has dark brown eyes and my dad has blue. Now, I have my father's eyes (and I mean completely, with no hint of brown). So obviously you don't have to have two dominant genes to result in dark brown eyes, which I guess would make it possible for Quistis or Selphie or whoever to be Squall and Rinoa's offspring. Wait... What am I saying?!?

Anyway, I'm not saying I believe a word of Future Esthar's theories and I don't even remember how the eye thing came up. And yes I read the entire thread.. But I still can't understand the once far-fetched and now random theories from FE. Like everyone else has said, they just aren't consistent with the game. Not with the script, not with the graphical instances. Not to mention Future's lack of consistency in his own ideas (which probably come from having wayyyy too many). Sorry dude, another tally in opposition.

And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel). Trying to prove this is like trying to explain how magic would work. Or time compression. Or how in the hell Squall's hair can stay like that.

But I'm wondering... Why are you guys still even trying to disprove all these inconsistent theories? Any "normal" person that reads the thread can see the bogusness of all this. I admire Unknowns for trying though. But I'm guessing at this point you guys are just doing this for fun, otherwise you'd have quit after the first page!! Unless you have some internal masochistic need to torture yourselves. :D

To Future Esthar (meant in the sincerest way): Do you really have nothing better to do? You're creative enough, why don't you write fiction stories? Just don't call them theories. Please.

[Christmas]

Fine. Fair enough.But I guess if u have sibilings, they aren't like this right?

Let's just say you are a rare case like I say earlier,"little possiblity". maybe 1 out of 1000 or 1 out of...whatever.

Let just say that Rinoa + Squall = Quisitis fits due to rare case.
Then Quistis + Zell = Selphie won't fit since how much time such thing can happen all the time?

And I am talking about hair genetics here.

It is not like you get to see meteorshower everyday in your country right?

EDIT:Sorry, I missed out some part:


Ok I haven't posted yet but I thought this was important since I'm apparently a genetic mutation. My mother has dark brown eyes and my dad has blue. Now, I have my father's eyes

You have your father's eye so what's wrong? It is not like your eyes are green which is completely different from your parents?


And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel).

Their appearance changed due to practice of black magic and some of their body parts deformed as stated by Squall of SeeD from some guide. But this doesn't mean the genes change along and even so, the human dudes in the game certainly can't change like sorceressm right?

[sparkie]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn. :p

But we agree on the fact that hair genetics (and eye genetics as far as I'm concerned) don't apply here, right?

[sparkie]

And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel).

Their appearance changed due to practice of black magic and some of their body parts deformed as stated by Squall of SeeD from some guide. But this doesn't mean the genes change along and even so, the human dudes in the game certainly can't change like sorceressm right?

Yeah I suppose it wouldn't change their genes, no, but there is magic like I said (although we don't know whether it can be used to change appearance). Anyway, why does this eye thing even matter? We already know Squall and Rinoa didn't have any love child to be turned into Ultimecia. :rolleyes2

[Christmas]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn. :p


What I am saying is since Zell and Quistis dun have green eyes and have eyes pretty far from green, how can they have a child like Selphie who have green eyes, isn't it?


But we agree on the fact that hair genetics (and eye genetics as far as I'm concerned) don't apply here, right?

So do you agree as I really highlighted really big, the random sorceress you fought during time compression look anywhere like Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis?

[Future Esthar]

People debating with me are doing well.
People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

[sparkie]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn. :p


What I am saying is since Zell and Quistis dun have green eyes and have eyes pretty far from green, how can they have a child like Selphie who have green eyes, isn't it?
All I'm saying is that it's probably possible but not likely. I don't know enough about genetics to decide that. And how can Selphie be their child in the first place? Besides the whole time loop thing which is really just a cop-out reason because it can't really be explained so he's using it to his advantage.


So do you agree as I really highlighted really big, the random sorceress you fought during time compression look anywhere like Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis?
Not unless colors are determine who you are, which is what Future is pretty much saying. He should play Legend of Dragoon, he'd have a blast. Hope I'm not creating another string of ridiculous theories by saying that...

[sparkie]

People debating with me are doing well.
Well, we're glad to know we're pleasing you, oh great one.

People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.
Have you been absent for the past 50 replies?? I'm getting sick of this selective attention thing...

No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.
Hahaha I don't think you understand how theories work. Or what a theory even is. A theory is something people try to prove, not prove wrong. That makes no sense. You are the one who came up with them, so it's your job to prove them. So according to you, we can say what we want and it'll be correct until someone proves it wrong? Ok: Squall is a chick. You can't prove it so.... wow I just altered the entire game!!! :D

[Future Esthar]

They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.

The sorceresses just look a little different from them because they were transformed by magic.

[sparkie]

They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.
Really? Hadn't noticed... :eek:


The sorceresses just look a little different from them because they were transformed by magic.

Do you know how elementary school that sounds? You are just using things from the game that we can't prove wrong to fit your story. Anyone could do the same but they like the story as it is. Why do you have to change it? These aren't "hidden truths", they're alterations. I don't understand why most other people are satisfied with the story and you aren't. Have you ever even CONSIDERED that things really are as they appear to be?

[Future Esthar]

Oops,sorry.This was a mistake.
Seifer+Edea=Zell
Zell+Quistis=Irvine (which is strange and i will explain why)
Irvine+Selphie=Squall

This is the only possibility for the eyes genetic to apply.

So instead of the second sorceress being Quistis she is Selphie who also dresses yellow clothes.

I recognize I made a mistake here.
So in reverse order we have Rinoa->Selphie->Quistis->Edea.

[Christmas]

I can't really believe you can just ignored the whole lump of "presents" I prepared for you or they are just too much for you?

And pls stop changing things here and there and just make up your mind.

[Squall of SeeD]

People debating with me are doing well.
People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

No, a theory is not right until proven wrong, Future. The scientific community even says as much. That's why there are very few scientific laws. Most of them are only regarded as beliefs and suppositions because not everything can be proven like gravity. An experiment can be conducted 10,001 times and if the first 10,000 all have the same result, yet the last one has a different result, the theory is wrong. That is the rule of scientific study and theorizing.

The burden of providing proof falls to one proposing a theory, not to those who attempt to discredit it. All that one has to do to prove a theory wrong is to demonstrate a single inconsistency, one point where evidence doesn't add up. Your "theories" have countless inconsistencies, not just with the story of the game itself, but with each other.



They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.

No, that's not true. A theory must have corroborating evidence. In the event that you're unfamiliar with this term, let me explain what it is: It is tangible, verifiable evidence in support of something. Not just "Well, maybe this could have happened..." or "This might be the case..." or "After thinking about it, some more, I got to thinking 'What if...'."

We're talking about evidence that is solid, undeniable. Something like "This apple is not indestructible" can be tested and proven when someone bashes it repeatedly with a plank of wood. The tangible evidence that the apple is not indestructible is its splattered remains.

Internal consisentcy doesn't amount to a hill of /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif if the venue into which the theory will be applied is not compatible. It has to fit what the pre-existing material without contradicting it. Your theories are contradicted by the pre-existing material and are, thus, immediately proven false. Julia is not Edea because she is dead. How do we know this? Because the pre-existing material says so. Julia is not Ultimecia. Why? Because she is dead. Edea is not Ultimecia. Why? Because Edea isn't even a Witch by the game's end and Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future.

In order for a theory to fit something, Future, it has to seamlessly slide into place without contradicting anything that was there before. That's how a theory works. You don't understand what a theory is, Future. You really don't. You think a theory is something that you make up to change the way things are. That's not what they are. Theories are to explain what already is. They are used to explain pre-existing material, not to alter it; if they in any way alter or contradict the pre-existing material, they are not serving their purpose and are not theories.

You have no evidence for any of your theories. All you have is your imagination, and there's nothing wrong with having an active imagination at all. However, you're applying it wrong. You're applying your imaingation, not to the purpose of theorizing, not to the end of explaining anything, but to the end of changing a pre-existing story and contradicting what is already fact. You are not Kazushige Nojima. You are not Tetsuya Nomura. You are not Yoshinori Kitase. You have no basis or authority to argue that anything in the story is not what is. A theory would be trying to explain why what is in the story is what it is, not changing what is.

For an example of what a theory is, read this:

"I believe that Squall and the others were able to continue fighting against Ultimecia even while the universe around them was compressed and being absorbed because they were focusing on one another. We find support for this in Laguna telling the others that when Time Compression began, they would need to focus on each other, their friendship and need for each other, and imagine being together someplace. He said that if they did this, they would be able to travel toward Ultimecia's era by focusing on being there with one another:


"Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist."
"There's only one way to make yourself exist in a world like that!"
"As friends, don't forget one another! As friends, believe in one another!"
"Believe in your friends' existence! And they'll also believe in yours."
"To be friends, to like one another, and to love one another..."
"You can't do these things alone. You need somebody."
"Right, guys?"
"What place reminds you of your friends?"
"Imagine being in that place with all your friends."
"Once time compression begins, think of that place and try to get there!
That's all!"
"That place will welcome you. You'll be able to get there no matter what period you're in!"
"You need love and friendship for this mission! And the courage to believe it."
"It's all about love, friendship, and courage!"

They do as Laguna has instructed and focus on their love for each other and their need for each other, and on being at Edea's place together in Ultimecia's era. They then arrive there.

They continue to focus on one another while they are there and are, thus, able to remain even while everything around them is compressed and absorbed into Ultimecia.

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."


That is a theory, Future. It in no way contradicts what was previously there. It works off of what was previously there to explain why something else about what is there is the way it is, and the evidence supports the conclusion.


This is an example of changing what is already there with something that's not a theory at all, and which is immediately contradicted by what is there, thus, proving the new concept false:

Linkage (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1214011&postcount=97).


Do you understand now? Your "theories" are not theories at all. Theories are supposed to explain things about why the world -- or in this case, Final Fantasy VIII's story -- are the way they are by working off of what we know to be true, not by changing what is true. When you start doing that, your theory is no longer even explaining anything about why the world -- or the story -- is the way it is. It's just making up bull/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif that is absolutely irrelevant, is not verifiable in any manner, and could not possibly be true because it contradicts pre-existing facts.

You seem to think that pre-existing facts will change to accomodate your "theories." That's not how things work. Theories are supposed to explain why pre-existing facts are what they are. Theories have to change to accomodate these explanations, and they must remain within the realm of what is pre-existing fact. Your "theories" do not do this, and, thus, they are not theories. They are FanFiction. This stuff has belonged on the Arts & Writing Board (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55) from the very beginning, yet you don't understand this.

This Forum is not for discussing things that contradict the story. It is for discussing what is in the story. As a fellow member of this Forum, I ask you to take the time to show us the respect of recognizing what a theory really is, to stop insulting us -- and, yes, you have been, whether you thought so or not -- by saying that we are too closed-minded to see the truth, when it is you that refuses to accept what is already fact and truth. You have not made a single theory in all the time you have been here. All you have made are FanFiction tales that don't even recognize the continuity of the story they're supposed to be based on.

You expect us to read your writings and take them seriously when you don't even extend to us the respect of recognizing what a theory or what the purpose of this Forum is. Seeing as how you've forgotten, let me remind you, as one of our Moderators did last night, as you seemingly ignored him:


( A Link to his post (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1224897&postcount=250))



By the way if we don´t see something on the game it don´t means it was not thruth.
Perhaps, but let's just stick to discussing what actually happens in the game. We realize there are inifinte possibilities to what can be, but that is not what this forum is about.

[Del Murder]

A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.
That's not how it goes. History has shown that you have to prove you are right before you can be taken seriously. I think this message board is a good example of that.

[Future Esthar]

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."

This is proofed wrong in the end because Squall is not absorbed into time and Rinoa is able to bring him back.You can´t even proof he isn´t dead.So your theory is not a theory.

And despite my theories not being theories they fit the storyline.ALL the storyline.
You just don´t understand the context of my theories.
A keyword:Time Compression (or WOTC-Well organized time compression).
You need to understand what I said as a whole.
I NEVER SAID the characters weren´t at an orphanage.
I NEVER SAID that the characters weren´t students at a Garden.
All this were thruth but inside Time Compression.
What you have to understand the most in my theories is my theories on Time Compression.
This is what you don´t seem to understand.This will help you see how my theories can fit the story
I don´t contradict the story.I just add things.
Some of my theories happen outside Time Compression
Edea=Ulti->outside WOTC.
The orphanage gang+Edea were a dinasty ruling Centra->outside WOTC
Laguna=Vascaroon->outside WOTC
He,Kyros and Ward were guardians of the Centra castle during Ulti´s time->outside WOTC
Vascaroon fell in love with Ulti->outside WOTC
Rinoa try to find Squall at the flower field of her castle->outside WOTC
Propagators come from the moon and changed to human form.Centra civilization receives them and they become their kings.->outside WOTC
X managed to possesses the dinasty somehow.->outside WOTC
X accursed them with a fusion in which they become sorceress Y.->outside WOTC.
Our heros were scattered from their eras to an orphanage on Edea´s house.->Inside WOTC
Edea uses a pawn named Cid Kramer to make a military academy to train Seed´s->Inside WOTC
There is a country named Esthar ruled by sorceress Adel with the ingenious yet inhuman Doc Odine.->outside and inside WOTC
Edea passes her powers to Rinoa,tells there is a sorceress from the future and that she was possessed.->Inside WOTC
All the other events from the game->Inside WOTC
There were events inside WOTC that weren´t stated in the game but that I theorize.For example,the Julia is alive thing,the Deling bringing her to life thing,etc..
However these don´t contradict the game because we really don´t see Julia dying and had no reason to believe so looking at what happens on the game.What people learn in schools and through the Media don´t had to be necessarily true.

[Squall of SeeD]

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."

This is proofed wrong in the end because Squall is not absorbed into time and Rinoa is able to bring him back.

Future, Ultimecia had been beaten at that point. All that she had wrought to the timeline was being undone.



And despite my theories not being theories they fit the storyline.ALL the storyline.

Except the one we see in the game.

[ThroneofDravaris]

Wait, the horse seems to be slightly stirring: LET’S BEAT IT SOME MORE!

Seriously, why is this thread still alive?

[Future Esthar]

Even so the fact that they get absorbed into time proves nothing.
By the way if Time Compression is finishing why is it that it only finishes when Rinoa appears.Isn´t that a great coincidence?I always see it as Rinoa being responsible for TC finishing.Am I wrong?

[Christmas]

A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

Not really, mine interpretation is different from Squall of SeeD or maybe also Del.

A theory is neutral in a sense that it is neither right non wrong until it is shown, discussed and proven that either it is right or wrong. (I interpret it myself, not from some books or any sources :D )

Like out of 10 people, 7 agreed and 3 disagreed which have valid points and not just personal grudge against the theorist, I will said that this theory need to be revised but if the result is 10 out of 10 disagreed then there is a big problem with this theory which is what is happening now.


A keyword:Time Compression (or WOTC-Well organized time compression).
You need to understand what I said as a whole.

This is what the game which you said is lie say about Time Compression:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8059/timecompression3ub.th.png (http://img269.imageshack.us/my.php?image=timecompression3ub.png)

Let's see what you have to say


This is what you don´t seem to understand.This will help you see how my theories can fit the story
I don´t contradict the story.I just add things.
Some of my theories happen outside Time Compression
Edea=Ulti->outside WOTC.
The orphanage gang+Edea were a dinasty ruling Centra->outside WOTC
Laguna=Vascaroon->outside WOTC
He,Kyros and Ward were guardians of the Centra castle during Ulti´s time->outside WOTC

Ya. We have propagators in human form wielding gunblade and falling in love with other propagator.

Like I said in my previous post, there is no saying there is a dynasty ruling Centra nor Kiros and Wards are guardians.


And despite my theories not being theories they fit the storyline.ALL the storyline.

Any Fanfiction can fit into the storyline but they are not the truth.
And the Long post that I made pointed out a lot of things that dun fit in the "original" storyline that is, but maybe not your "storyline".


Vascaroon fell in love with Ulti->outside WOTC
Rinoa try to find Squall at the flower field of her castle->outside WOTC


I must say you just dig out every single minor character and really make the full good use of them....

[NeoTifa]

i never thought too much into the subject, myself, but me and bri came up with a few wild theories back in the day. im still convinced that squall cheated on rinoa w/ quistis and rinoa went berserk and killed all the seeds and turned against the world and was trying to use her time compression to eliminate her ever meeting squall in the first place. then she used something of an empty shell, shapeshifter or anything of the such (like a boggart) and used her hatered for squall to turn his little "hero" against him, to make him suffer even more. (you know, the feeling i get when sephiroth tries to kill me in 7 or kh ;_;). just a wild theory that supports r=u. dont think me crazy. my mind goes wild sometimes during english class >.> lol.

[Future Esthar]

Had sent you a PM Unknowns.

[NeoTifa]

sry. i still think my theory is correct :riiight:

[Christmas]

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."

But just let me say something. Why didn't anyone get absorbed in time when they fall in a random counter in Ultimecia Castle during a random battle but during the showdown with Ultimecia?

From what I know, when they first step into Ultimecia's castle, the bond must be there from what you say, isn't it?

Let's have a look at this quote:



Ultimecia: ...SeeD... SeeD......SeeD...... SeeD, SeeD, SeeD! Kurse all SeeDs.
Swarming like lokust akross generations. You disgust me. The world was
on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time compression'. Insolent fools!
Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs. The price for your meddling is
death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your
imagining. There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whom shall I exterminate first!? I'll start with you
three!

She mention something about sending them somewhere horrible and started to exterminate them one by one then those that fall got absorbed.

So I reckon that when someone fall in battle during the showdown with Ultimecia get absorbed into the so called "dimension beyond your imagination" which is done by Ultimecia herself?

Correct me if I am wrong.


Even so the fact that they get absorbed into time proves nothing.

Ya, then why do they absorbed? You dun see your chars get absorbed into time in a random encounter in a world map?


Let's just said why were
By the way if Time Compression is finishing why is it that it only finishes when Rinoa appears.Isn´t that a great coincidence?I always see it as Rinoa being responsible for TC finishing.Am I wrong?

Cause "Eyes on me" is gonna play :D
Rinoa finally found Squall but he ended up "dead" in the time compressed god know where.
Then Eyes on Me played then the scene changed to the flower field and blah blah blah....Basically it something to fit into the ending.

Alright, I think it is best for Squall of SeeD to answer it himself.


i never thought too much into the subject, myself, but me and bri came up with a few wild theories back in the day. im still convinced that squall cheated on rinoa w/ quistis and rinoa went berserk and killed all the seeds and turned against the world and was trying to use her time compression to eliminate her ever meeting squall in the first place. then she used something of an empty shell, shapeshifter or anything of the such (like a boggart) and used her hatered for squall to turn his little "hero" against him, to make him suffer even more. (you know, the feeling i get when sephiroth tries to kill me in 7 or kh ;_. just a wild theory that supports r=u. dont think me crazy. my mind goes wild sometimes during english class >.> lol.

You just can't see the truth can't you? Let me tell you the truth then.

Rinoa realize Squall is gay then ran off with Seifer. Squall is furious and ran after them then cornered them. Squall then expressed his true love to Seifer and the two of them got together. Rinoa sworned to get revenge on the two men that cheated on her and became Ultimecia which is caused by her grief,hatred,anger, sorrow and the misuse of black magic.

So she controlled Seifer as a puppet to toy him around and made Squall & Seifer fight each other to get her sweet revenge. Also, to compress time to eliminate everything. :D

[Squall of SeeD]

Even so the fact that they get absorbed into time proves nothing.
By the way if Time Compression is finishing why is it that it only finishes when Rinoa appears.Isn´t that a great coincidence?I always see it as Rinoa being responsible for TC finishing.Am I wrong?

Time Compression never finished, Future....

Ultimecia was defeated. It was stopped. The world was restored in that scene with Squall and Rinoa, not squished into a ball with the rest of time and sucked into Ultimecia.

[Future Esthar]

You didn´t answered my question.
By finished I mean stopped.
But why is it it just stopped when Rinoa appears.
The game gives the impression that Rinoa stopped it just by hanging Squall in her arms and crying.
And Unknowns presented a counter argument to your theory.
Answer her.

[Kamiko]

Well, hey, here's an idea, let's over analyze CG animated characters!

[Squall of SeeD]

But just let me say something. Why didn't anyone get absorbed in time when they fall in a random counter in Ultimecia Castle during a random battle but during the showdown with Ultimecia?

From what I know, when they first step into Ultimecia's castle, the bond must be there from what you say, isn't it?

Because the random encounters aren't storyline battles and -- as far as the storyline is concerned -- don't necessarily take place. For that matter, all the characters are coded to be present standing before Ultimecia when the final battle begins.



You didn´t answered my question.
By finished I mean stopped.
But why is it it just stopped when Rinoa appears.

It was stopped before she appeared. It was stopped the moment she was defeated. Squall wasn't lost in ever-advancing Time Compression. He was lost in time itself due to his difficulty accepting his need for others as easily as everyone else did.



The game gives the impression that Rinoa stopped it just by hanging Squall in her arms and crying.

No, it doesn't. It gives the impression that she brought him back from where he was lost at that moment.



And Unknowns presented a counter argument to your theory. Answer her.

You're not one to tell someone else to answer Unknowns' -- or anyone else's for that matter -- questions, Future, what with you ignoring most every question posed to you.

[Beclem]

This thread is gold. Pure gold. Some of the shít you guys are coming up with is fúcking hilarious.

Btw, who the hell is Vasacroon!?

[Sir Bahamut]

To read about The Legend of Vascaroon, check this link:

http://www.geocities.com/aarinfantasy4/guideint3a.jpg

[Future Esthar]

No, it doesn't. It gives the impression that she brought him back from where he was lost at that moment.

So if there were not a Time Compression in the end you are saying that Rinoa time travels?But that´s impossible isn´t it?
But if she doesn´t then Squall remains on the same era.Rinoa only takes you to a different place.

By the way I thought almost everyone here believed that Time Compression takes place on that scene.Are you saying people were wrong?

[Christmas]

Because the random encounters aren't storyline battles and -- as far as the storyline is concerned -- don't necessarily take place. For that matter, all the characters are coded to be present standing before Ultimecia when the final battle begins.

Sounds a bit odd for my taste...I know a storyline battle usually have special features like FF X where you can talk at all this but as far as I concerned, if you defeated Ultimecia and have only three characters standing while the other are absorbed into time earlier, they will still show out in the ending. I know it is for the sake of the storyline.

Let's just put in this way, if your characters fall into battle in a random encounter and got absorbed into time then you win the battle it will be also reasonable that they give your characters back for the sake of the storyline.

If this is how it happen, I think it will support your theory better.

Also, from my POV the whole walkthrough in the castle is a important part of the storyline itself.

Like how your powers is sealed only in the castle and have to seek the guardians. But it can also mean that Square want the game to be more challenging by doing this but it is one of the unique feature in the castle itself.

But like you said the programmer wanted them to be there till they face Ultimecia, well....but I still think there is some logic of what Ultimecia said before the showdown.

But whatever it is Future, this doesn't change the fact that they are absorbed into time.

[Sir Bahamut]

So if there were not a Time Compression in the end you are saying that Rinoa time travels?But that´s impossible isn´t it?
But if she doesn´t then Squall remains on the same era.Rinoa only takes you to a different place.

Time was still de-compressing when Rinoa goes looking for Squall, which is why she is able to get to him simply by really wanting to be with him. When she finds him, she is then able to bring him back to their own time, again using willpower. Then time continues to de-compress until everything is back to normal.


Let's just put in this way, if your characters fall into battle in a random encounter and got absorbed into time then you win the battle it will be also reasonable that they give your characters back for the sake of the storyline.

If this is how it happen, I think it will support your theory better.

No, that won't really fit, because being absorbed into time is seen as being sucked into TC, from where there is no escape unless Ultimecia is defeated. So if people were to get absorbed during random battles, you might end up with only one guy to fight Ultimecia!

No, the random encounters in Ultimecias castle simply don't reflect the storyline. No random encounter ever has any bearing on the storyline. The storyline treats things as if you never had any, so there's no reason to believe Ultimecias castle is any different.

[Christmas]

No, that won't really fit, because being absorbed into time is seen as being sucked into TC, from where there is no escape unless Ultimecia is defeated. So if people were to get absorbed during random battles, you might end up with only one guy to fight Ultimecia!

Like I said, they came back after you win.


Let's just put in this way, if your characters fall into battle in a random encounter and got absorbed into time then you win the battle it will be also reasonable that they give your characters back for the sake of the storyline.
If this is how it happen, I think it will support your theory better.

[Sir Bahamut]

Like I said, they came back after you win.

That's all fine, except no one DOES get absorbed when KO'd in random encounters. People only get absorbed in Ultimecias battle because that's part of the storyline; random encounters are not.

[Christmas]

Like I said, they came back after you win.

That's all fine, except no one DOES get absorbed when KO'd in random encounters. People only get absorbed in Ultimecias battle because that's part of the storyline; random encounters are not.

I did said it is a "if" scenario and not a "real" scenario.
And if they do so, it will support the theory better.

[Future Esthar]

Time was still de-compressing when Rinoa goes looking for Squall, which is why she is able to get to him simply by really wanting to be with him. When she finds him, she is then able to bring him back to their own time, again using willpower. Then time continues to de-compress until everything is back to normal..

Exacly.But are you saying that Rinoa just brought Squall back and time was still decompressing when we see Seifer fishing on Balamb and when we see Laguna on Raine´s tomb and all that?
In fact to me it was there forever.

[Sir Bahamut]

And if they do so, it will support the theory better.

As I said though, random encounters have nothing to do with the storyline, so it doesn't matter what happens there. In other words, the theory that it is their broken bonds that cause them to be absorbed into time is as well supported as it can be.


Exacly.But are you saying that Rinoa just brought Squall back and time was still decompressing when we see Seifer fishing on Balamb and when we see Laguna on Raine´s tomb and all that?
In fact to me it was there forever.

We don't know the exact moment when time had fully reverted back to normal, but it doesn't really matter anyway. And time compression could not always have been there, because no one but Ultimecia can exist within TC.

[Christmas]

As I said though, random encounters have nothing to do with the storyline, so it doesn't matter what happens there. In other words, the theory that it is their broken bonds that cause them to be absorbed into time is as well supported as it can be.

If they got absorbed in time at a random encounter in the world map, maybe it do not have a relationship with the storyline but I meant any random encounter in the castle.

But as far as I concerned, the fact that Squall and Co is in Ultimecia's castle is already part of the storyline and whatever happen in the castle play far or less a little role in the story. (Except for the Omega weapon part I would said.)

And Ultimecia did said something about sending them to other dimension after exterminating them which is quite confusing as gamers will thought it is Ultimecia that send them to the dimension she claimed since absorbed in time only happen during fighting her.

[Future Esthar]

And time compression could not always have been there, because no one but Ultimecia can exist within TC.

What I think is the shape of time copmpression:
Time compression compresses about 8 or 9 eras
on the same time.However this eras were distributed over space.
This way the characters don´t dye because the world will look normal .

[NeoTifa]

i think ultimecia is nutz and need to get off the crack pipe. which makes me come to another theory. squall and rinoa had hot kinky sex while rinoa was doing crack and ultimecia is really a crack baby who needs to put on more clothing

[GunbladeMaster]

Ok listen heres a new theory that i have not seen in any other forum yet about Ultemicia an rinoa being the same person:

The group of teens (Squall, Rinoa,etc) go about a mission to save the world and eventually kill Ultemicia. BUT then theres a theory that rinoa goes insane after Squalls death so she turns into ultemicia and then tries to find her love squall but in the process forgets him and tries to find him in the past using other sorcereses and she finally finds her past self. Then the whole story repeats itself with Squall and friends killing Ultemicia and then Rinoa goin insane!!! So it never endz does it?!
(i no this isnt totally relevant in this forum but i had to post it sumwer)

[crazybayman]

Been there, done that.

Consensus is: there just isn't enough ingame proof to support this.

As I said in the other thread, if this were so, I think they would have made a big deal of it in the game's dialogue, because it would have created such a profound plot twist.

[Sir Bahamut]

That theory is not new at all I'm afraid. That is the R=U idea generally agreed to be the most plausible of the many ideas floating around. The only difference is that the standard model has Rinoa go insane and forget Squall without actually having gone looking for him.

But the R=U theory simply isn't that plausible anyway. For a long discussion on R=U, check out the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ on the following page:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

[GunbladeMaster]

ok thanks

[Rinoa_Heartillly]

Wait a minute, Julia is still alive!? And who in goddess name is Vasacroon!?!
You guys just over analyze stuff and get very confusing.

[Christmas]

Didn't you read? Vascaroon is Laguna before WOTC. :p Anyway, this is the truth about Vascaroon.



After visiting the White SeeD ship for the first time on Disc Three, you can revisit and speak to the girl named Lina. She is teaching the two younger children at the front of the ship. Here, she tells the Legend of Vascaroon. I have written it here for your viewing pleasure, word for word.


Legend of Vascaroon

Once upon a time there was a person named Hyne. Hyne was the ruler of the world. He became lazy and decided to make a tool to make his life easier. Hyne made a neat tool. His tool could make more tools by itself. Soon there were a lot of tools in the world. These tools were actually people.

When Hyne woke up, he was surprised because there were a lot of people. Hyne wanted to reduce the number of people, and used magic to burn up a lot of small people. The small people were children. The people cherished the children very much. So the people rebelled against Hyne. Hyne used powerful magic to fight them. The people couldn't use magic, but they had wisdom.

Eventually, Hyne began to lose the war, because there were too many people to fight, and they were getting smarter. Therefore, he decided to make peace with people by offering them half of his body along with his powers. Hyne cut his body in half and gave the people half as he promised.

Then, another war started. People began to fight over the power Hyne offered them through his body. This war lasted decades. Finally, King Zebalga and the Zebalga tribe emerged victorious and demanded Hyne's body-half to get its pwers. But the body ignored their commands.

Then, Vascaroon came to the rescue. He appeared before the confused Zebalgas and revealed to them that Hyne's half-body was corrupt and possessed no real power. The body-half was actually Hyne's castoff skin. The Zebalgas were angered by this truth, and decided to destroy Hyne. The Zebalgas never found Hyne. People began to call him "Hyne the Magician" and continued to hunt him for centuries to come.

As for Julia is still alive, well, according to what I know from the game, she isn't alive.

[Rinoa_Heartillly]

^^ Thanks! I didn't want to sit and read through alot of pages. *hugs Unknowns* Thanks for decribing it to me! :)

[MJN SEIFER]

The R=U G=S theorys are FALSE (Even though I've seen them Around in places before)

Wether you belive me is debatable but the fact is that Sqaure Said it was false.

[Big D]

Sqaure Said it was false.That's debatable:D

The truth is... Jenova is Ultimecia.
Yep, FFVII's 'background villain' is actually Ultimecia.
There is IRREFUTABLE PROOF in both games.

Jenova can survive travel through space. Thus, Jenova could get from one world to another. If the worlds of FFVII and FFVIII are in fact the same world, then this is fine too - Jenova can survive for millennia, buried in solid rock.

"But Jenova was destroyed!" you all cry. Actually, Jenova's body has the ability to re-form when it's dismembered - even when it's apparently dead.

Both Jenova and Ultimecia are female, and both want to attain God-like power and rule over an entire world.

Jenova has the power to change her form. Ultimecia transforms, as well. Jenova can alter her appearance, gaining the appearance and voice of other people. Jenova and Ultimecia look nothing alike, which proves that they are one and the same, just using different forms.

This is utterly, completely, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, undoubtedly, undeniably, undisputably, indubitablly, unquestionably true.
Coz I sez so.

[Masamune·1600]

What an inescapably and incontestably fascinating conclusion. ;)

[SammieBabe]

This is utterly, completely, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, undoubtedly, undeniably, undisputably, indubitablly, unquestionably true.
Coz I sez so.

That's good to know... I'll be sure to keep that in mind.... ;)

[G SpOtZ]

Sqaure Said it was false.That's debatable:D

The truth is... Jenova is Ultimecia.
Yep, FFVII's 'background villain' is actually Ultimecia.
There is IRREFUTABLE PROOF in both games.

Jenova can survive travel through space. Thus, Jenova could get from one world to another. If the worlds of FFVII and FFVIII are in fact the same world, then this is fine too - Jenova can survive for millennia, buried in solid rock.

"But Jenova was destroyed!" you all cry. Actually, Jenova's body has the ability to re-form when it's dismembered - even when it's apparently dead.

Both Jenova and Ultimecia are female, and both want to attain God-like power and rule over an entire world.

Jenova has the power to change her form. Ultimecia transforms, as well. Jenova can alter her appearance, gaining the appearance and voice of other people. Jenova and Ultimecia look nothing alike, which proves that they are one and the same, just using different forms.

This is utterly, completely, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, undoubtedly, undeniably, undisputably, indubitablly, unquestionably true.
Coz I sez so.
O_O i always thought Jenova was PuPu. my bad. this completely disproves every other theory that anybody else has ever come up with. truly amazing.

[Sir Bahamut]

Wether you belive me is debatable but the fact is that Sqaure Said it was false.

Wrong. Square have never made any official statements concerning the theory of R=U. If you can find but one credible source, then fine, but until then, Square remain neutral in that sense.

[Big D]

Square remain neutral in that sense.Either "neutral", or else "having better things to do than worry about trivial nerdy bickering on the internet":goofy:

[Christmas]

The R=U G=S theorys are FALSE (Even though I've seen them Around in places before)

Wether you belive me is debatable but the fact is that Sqaure Said it was false.

What might G=S be?

[Sir Bahamut]

Griever = Squall, I'd imagine.

[Christmas]

If Greiver is Squall means Squall murder himself in the future.

Sound pretty weird to me unless there is some soft of theory that said when ppl in the FF VIII dies, they had a chance to evolve as a GF?

And if Rinoa is Ultimecia, then the other guardians in the castle might be the orphanage gang since Squall is Greiver meaning the castle is actually Balamb Garden. What a twist of plot..... :p

[Sir Bahamut]

Most people who argue for the theory state that Ultimecia, with her immense powers, turned Squall into a GF so he could stay and protect her forever(otherwise he would have died eventually of old age).

Very farfetched, in other words.

By the way, SquallOfSeeDs Ultimania arrived a few days ago, so we will soon have the translated information on sorceress!

[Masamune·1600]

It's no stranger than any apparent battle between Rinoa and Ultimecia (assuming one is an advocate of R=U), although S=G is inescapably wrong. An examination of the Japanese dialogue makes it very clear that Griever was Drawn directly from Squall's mind, which would obviously disprove the theory. In general, most S=G proponents use the idea in a misguided attempt to further the R=U argument.

EDIT: Ultimania Guide = :D

[Big D]

It's no stranger than any apparent battle between Rinoa and Ultimecia (assuming one is an advocate of R=U), although S=G is inescapably wrong. An examination of the Japanese dialogue makes it very clear that Griever was Drawn directly from Squall's mindWasn't Griever created from the whole party's minds? I seem to recall Squall of SeeD mentioning something about that. Apparently, Ultimecia talks about creating the ultimate GF "from your minds", or somesuch, in either the original Japanese or in the European translations.

[Masamune·1600]

Now that you mention it, I agree that she was addressing the party. The idea of Griever would have probably been unique to Squall, however. Griever probably wasn't "the most powerful of things" in, say, Quistis' mind, or Selphie's. You're right in saying that Ultimecia would have Drawn from the whole party; it's just that I would think the Griever template would have originated with Squall.

The dialogue Squall cited is actually the 48th post of this topic. I would have quoted it, but it takes up a lot of space.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, the theory has barely stood it's ground for a long time now, and although it has been made quite clear over time that the game doesn't really support it, the final nail in the coffin has finally arrived, in shape of the Ultimania. This is what it has to say about sorceresses:

"SORCERESSES

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne. There is, however, no hard evidence to support this claim. Extraordinarily powerful, many sorceresses have harboured ambitions to rule over the world – as a result, many people have come to equate the Sorceress with fear. However, there are also many Sorceresses who have chosen to live a quiet life sheltered away from civilized society; as such, the actual number of Sorceresses and the amount of power shared between them remains unknown.

The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one's capacity to wield such power – their natural affinity for magic. This factor helps to determine Sorceress candidates for when a Sorceress passes on all of her power into the next Sorceress. The giving and receiving of
power can be made between any two individuals – it not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress' lifespan is the same as a normal human's, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress."

---

Make special note that it says in the end that a sorceress has a normal lifespan. Now, it does say that a sorceress cannot die while she has her powers, but judging by Ultimecia at the orphanage, being forced to stay alive when your body is dead basically cripples you, and basically forces you to 'cough up' your powers to someone. This means that if Ultimecia were Rinoa, not only should she be an old woman, she should also be crippled by her inability to let go of her powers. These traits are clearly not present in the Ultimecia we see, so we can conclude that there is no conceivable way for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

I'm sorry if this dissapoints believers of the theory, but this is official Square information, and it says black on white that a sorceress has a normal lifespan. Since there is no way to avoid the fact that Ultimecia lives too far into the future for a Rinoa with normal lifespan to 'become' Ultimecia, the theory is impossible.

[Christmas]

Are that other infomations like to verify Squall is Laguna's son?
The Lunar Cry in Trabia?

I think there is still some stuff I haven't brought up...

[Sir Bahamut]

I do not know. I can try and get that checked(ie. Laguna and Squall) But really, it's pretty obvious even without the Ultimania anyway.

The Lunar Cry, and I can check up on. I'll probably just post all information here as it comes. That being said, here's what it has to say on Magic:

"MAGIC

A special power that can only be used by Sorceresses. The magic that is used by human beings is referred to as para-magic. Discovered by Doctor Odine during the course of his Sorceress research, para-magic via junctioning GF is used by Balamb Garden. While it is possible to use para-magic without prior training, without equipping a GF one's power is limited physically, and cannot develop beyond normal parameters. (#) However, in order to create forces capable of fighting without having to rely on the power of the GFs during combat, Galbadia Garden has instituted areas with special anti-magic force fields similar to those used in the D-District Prison."

[Christmas]

I do not know. I can try and get that checked(ie. Laguna and Squall) But really, it's pretty obvious even without the Ultimania anyway.


Ya. but it is better to have something black and white to prove it. So someone we know here won't be able to twist things up.

Lastly, sorry to bother you that much and it will be nice if your guide can answer some of the question in this thread.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=68988

EDIT: I think I asked too much off-topic questions. I will stop here now.

[Gilgamesh of Legends]

Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.

Don't you remember me explaining how it is an impossibility for any main character to be a child of Rinoa? *sigh* If you're going to tear this game apart looking for evidence of your theories, then I shall do the same to prove my views.

Okay, let me show you AGAIN.

I'm not going to touch anything on the hair genetics as I am not as familiar with it verses eye color traits.

Rinoa = B,B (Dark brown on the verge of black)
Squall = b,b (Blue)
Child = B,b; B,b; B,b; B,b (A moderate, light brown)

Brown (B) is the dominant trait over blue (b). Any possible combination of genes from Rinoa and Squall (or any other male for that matter) would result in the offspring having at least one Brown gene and thus, a shade of brown eyes. None of the main characters have brown eyes.

The reverse also holds true. Rinoa can not be the offspring of any of the main characters. No one else has even a single Brown gene (You witnessed this yourself.) and Rinoa has two!

Also, Selphie can not be the child of Quistis and Zell as neither of them have even one Semi-dominant (U) gene. However, Seifer has a U gene, so Selphie could be the child of Edea and Seifer, but that would require you changing your theory... again.

We already covered this and you just blew it off last time.


And Since all of the main characters are ages 17-20. its impossible for rinoa to be their mother. And no Future Esthar no matter how much you twist things up, you can thave kids when you 3.

[G SpOtZ]

they all grew up together except for rinoa. there's no way any this whole children theory is right.

also, doing and dating old friends is a no-no. LOL.

[Kamrusepas]

in 10 years people would forget ff8 even existed... =_=

5 years at the very most

I'm doing my best to not let it be forgotten..



Hell, the dialogue was also heavily modified at certain points. Translated as it was, it was going to have an M-Rating. Obnoxious and insulting as Seifer was, he was really a lot more rude.

Aww, I really gotta get my hands on the Japanese version... And then learn Japanese...



As far as "Sorceress" supposedly more accurately conveying what was clearly meant as "Witch" -- I'm not even sure how you managed to ignore the evidence I pointed out -- there's the fact that they have the same etymological value. "Sorcerer" and "Sorceress" have the ultimate root of "Sors" in Latin, which means "Sort" in the context of "Destiny" or "Fortune." Decrees from Oracles concerning the future were called "Sorteres," meaning "Lots." It is from this that we get the concepts of casting and drawing "lots" based on fortune/luck.

With that in mind, both Sorceresses and Witches employ Magic, which stems from the word "Magus," which basically means "One who knows" or "One rich in knowledge."

Witches, Sages, Priests, Sorcerers, Viziers, and all their counterparts have the same etymological value, so I'm not sure what you were getting at here.

Well I'm a witch, and I can say I'm definitely nowhere near a Sorceress. There's a big difference.

Sometimes the most important thing isn't where the words derive from, but what they mean these days :)

[enigma1234]

People always debate something in FF8 like R=U, S=G, U=J, laguna= squall's father theory...
even thou there are some similarities in the characters it doesn't mean something...
squall is squall, rinoa is rinoa, ultimecia is ultimecia,etc. people are just thinking to much about this game.
Why dont we just stop our imaginations and focus on the real story of the game.

I'm just going to add this one: some people says that griever is squall's idea of a perfect GF and ultimecia uses squall's imagination about griever to make her own GF
but arent you wondering why does quistis have griever's special attack? (Shockwave Pulsar) what is quistis relation to griever?
I think shockwave pulsar is indeed quistis ultimate skill not griever's, remember the event when ultimecia said this?...

[In japanese version]
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you.

[or in german version]
Ultimecia: What is the absolute power for you?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!

it says that she will take something from them and there magic were taken away from them maybe in this event ultimecia got quistis shockwave pulsar ability and maybe ultimecia decided that this skill will be griever's skill...?

What will your comment about this theory? :confused:

[crazybayman]

People always debate something in FF8 like R=U, S=G, U=J, laguna= squall's father theory...
even thou there are some similarities in the characters it doesn't mean something...
squall is squall, rinoa is rinoa, ultimecia is ultimecia,etc. people are just thinking to much about this game.
Why dont we just stop our imaginations and focus on the real story of the game.

I'm just going to add this one: some people says that griever is squall's idea of a perfect GF and ultimecia uses squall's imagination about griever to make her own GF
but arent you wondering why does quistis have griever's special attack? (Shockwave Pulsar) what is quistis relation to griever?
I think shockwave pulsar is indeed quistis ultimate skill not griever's remember the event when ultimecia said this?...

[In japanese version]
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you.

[or in german version]
Ultimecia: What is the absolute power for your?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!

it says that she will take something from them and there magic were taken away from them maybe in this event ultimecia got quistis shockwave pulsar ability and maybe ultimecia descided that this skill will be griever's skill...?

What will your comment about this theory?
A combination of that which they ALL fear. Squall's imagination of the most powerful GF - Griever. Ultimecia then draws something from Quistis' mind, that which she believes to be her most powerful attack. Quistis' fear is that something could oneday use her most powerful attack against her. Therefore Ultimecia gets this from Quistis' mind, and allows Griever to use Quistis' most powerful, and most feared attack, Shockwave pulsar.

This is open to debate, as where not told this specifically. However it makes sense to me.

[Future Esthar]

This is just a game,Crazybayman.

[crazybayman]

This is just a game,Crazybayman.
Very good FE. :rolleyes2 What's your point?

[Future Esthar]

Being sarcastic.
If I can´t make theories about minor details why can you?

[crazybayman]

Being sarcastic.
If I can´t make theories about minor details why can you?
Because I'm a god. :shifty:

Seriously though, I would hardly call that a theory, but a small, simple explanation. And as I said, its open to interpretation. I didn't say:

"OMG ITS TRUE, HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY REFUTE THIS?!?!? YOU CAN'T BECAUSE I PROVED IT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT. UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE ME WRONG IT HAS TO BE TRUE."

Which is usually what your arguments say.

[fire_of_avalon]

Stay on topic.

[Winter Nights]

How can there really be a R=U topic when our "Marginally Official Final Fantasy VIII FAQ Thread" (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=36341) refutes it, in the very first post? There isn't a topic to discuss.

[GunbladeMaster]

that may be so but it is still a popular and fun topic to discuss (especially with all the crazy theories) :)

[Winter Nights]

Okay.. Not much of a theory, if it's been debunked. :rolleyes2

[muzzer]

dont mean to sound very stupid but whats R=U?

[crazybayman]

dont mean to sound very stupid but whats R=U?
Rinoa = Ultimecia. You might want to go back through this thread, and read the previous posts.

[Big D]

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=36341

This is also a good place to look for R=U info:)

[Gilgamesh of Legends]

dont mean to sound very stupid but whats R=U?
Rinoa = Ultimecia. You might want to go back through this thread, and read the previous posts.

thats alot of reading :mad:

[Sir Bahamut]

I wouldn't recommend reading these topics. Rather, you're better off going here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

Scroll down to the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ". It contains a full analysis on the R=U theory, much more structured and complete than the contents of these topics.

[bahamut_eden]

i have heard someone in another forum talking about ultimecia being rinoa in the future ad griever being squall, which has become her knight. this makes so much sense and i was totally freaked out/shocked/pumped/excited. what do you guys think abouit this?

bahamut_eden

WHOA! didn't see that one coming

[crazybayman]

i have heard someone in another forum talking about ultimecia being rinoa in the future ad griever being squall, which has become her knight. this makes so much sense and i was totally freaked out/shocked/pumped/excited. what do you guys think abouit this?

bahamut_eden

WHOA! didn't see that one coming
Even though I like the idea of this theory, it's not possible.

Ultimecia exists in a time many generations after the time of Squall and Rhinoa. They will have been long since dead by the time Ultimecia is born.

Yes Rhinoa is a sorceress, and people believe that a Sorceress' lifespan is longer than that of a human, especially when looking at how young Edea looks compared to Cid. However, the Ultimania Guide (fact taken from the creators at Square) states that a sorceress' lifespan is no longer than that of a typical human's. Meaning that it is impossible for Rhinoa, and Squall to be alive in the time of Ultimecia, meaning that Rhinoa is not Ultimecia, and Squall is not Griever.