Tidus and Shuyin: An Analysis

[Masamune·1600]

Recently, the question of the exact nature of a connection between Tidus and Shuyin has become a popular topic for discussion in the FFX-2 Forum. Unfortunately, FFX-2 itself does not do a good job of explicating this question. In this thread, I hope to, as far as I am able, elucidate the matter of any relationship between Tidus and Shuyin, and explore any pertinent details regarding the issue.

Shuyin, in effect, is first introduced to the gamer in FFX-2, when Yuna mistakes him for Tidus while viewing a Sphere.


Yuna: (narrating) It all began when I saw this sphere of you. At least,
it looked like you. I couldn't say for sure. I thought I might find more spheres
like it if I joined the Gullwings. So I did.

When the gamer actually views the Sphere, he or she sees a young man that looks startlingly similar to Tidus. At this early stage of the game, it would hardly be unreasonable to assume that it is, in fact, actually Tidus.

Quite clearly, such information suggests that Shuyin bears an uncanny resemblance to Tidus; this is more than mere similarity of features. A comparison of the graphical depictions of Tidus and Shuyin confirms this; though slightly different, even their clothing is similar.

Further, when Yuna, Rikku, and Paine battle Shuyin at the end of FFX-2, we see that Shuyin’s named techniques are virtually identical to Tidus’ Overdrives from FFX. Spinning Cut is Spiral Cut; Run & Slash is Slice and Dice; Force Rain is Energy Rain; Terror of Zanarkand is Blitz Ace. Even if one supposes that Shuyin’s physical similarity to Tidus was a plot contrivance, meant only to set the story in motion, we still reach an impasse with regards to this question. As such, I will begin my analysis by suggesting that, more than merely being an introductory plot device, the physical resemblance between the two characters was a deliberate decision made to deepen the gaming experience.

However, while it seems that some connection must exist, most people mistakenly jump to the conclusion that Tidus is either the “Dream” version of Shuyin, or some sort of a reincarnation of Shuyin. This also leads to the line of thought where Yuna is viewed as a reincarnation of Lenne, Shuyin’s lover during the Machina War. A careful analysis of what is immediately apparent about Tidus and Shuyin (as well as Yuna and Lenne) will disprove both of these theories.

Tidus, as is commonly known, was 17 year old during the events of FFX. However, some people have assumed that he is really ~1000 years old, having existed since Zanarkand was destroyed by Sin at the end of the Machina War. This stems from a misunderstanding of dialogue that takes place early in FFX.

Early on, Rikku tells Tidus that Sin destroyed Zanarkand a millennium before the events of FFX.


Rikku: Don't worry, you'll be better in no time. They say your head gets
funny when Sin is near. Maybe you just had some kind of dream?

Tidus: You mean I'm sick?

Rikku: Because of Sin's toxin, yeah.

Tidus: You sure?

Rikku: Yeah, there is no Zanarkand anymore. Sin destroyed it a thousand
years ago. So...no one plays blitzball there.

Tidus: Huh? What you do mean a thousand years ago? But I saw Sin attack
Zanarkand! You're saying that happened a thousand years ago? No way!


Later, after Tidus washes up near Besaid, Wakka confirms Zanarkand’s death long ago.


Tidus: It's true Zanarkand was destroyed, right? A thousand years ago?
So it's just a big pile of rubble now, isn't it?

Wakka: Long time ago, there were a whole lot of cities in Spira. Big
cities with machina-machines-to run 'em. People played all day and let
the machina do the work. And then, well, take a look. Sin came, and
destroyed the machina cities. And Zanarkand along with 'em. Yeah, that
was about a thousand years ago, just like you said.

As a result of this and similar information, many people have assumed that Tidus was thrown ~1000 years forward by his encounter with Sin. However, such is not the case. Dream Zanarkand, summoned by Yu Yevon from within Sin, has basically existed since the “real” Zanarkand was destroyed. While the city itself is relatively static, architecturally unchanging, and with its Aeon citizenry unaware of what lies beyond the waters, its population is static, in flux like any human population found elsewhere in Spira. Time passes in identical fashion in Dream Zanarkand as it does anywhere else; hence, the residents of Dream Zanarkand are born, live out their lives, and eventually die.

In-game dialogue supports this idea that time passes in Dream Zanarkand in the same way it should in the rest of Spira.


Man's Voice: I was in the coffee shop, running away from home when I
heard the news. Our hero, Jecht, gone. Vanished into thin air! My dad
must have been his biggest fan. I knew how sad he'd be. Heck, we all
were that day. "Zanar", I say to myself, "What are you thinking?" I went
running straight back home. We sat up talking 'bout Jecht all night. My
dad and I never talked so much. Whoa... Didn't mean to reminisce, folks.
Anyway... Ten years later, the Jecht Memorial Cup tournament is today!
The two teams that have won through to the finals are...of course, the
Abes from A-East, and the Duggles from C-South. I know there's a lot of
people out there today to see the star of the Abes! In just one year,
he's become the team's number one player! He's Jecht's blood, and the
new hope of blitzball! What kind of super play will he show us today?
Will we see father's legendary shot? I don't think I'm the only one
excited here, folks!


Priest: Ten years have passed since Lord Braska became high summoner.
And finally we receive a statue for our temple.

Realize that Jecht accompanied Braska on his pilgrimage for the Final Aeon. According to the dialogue, ten years have passes in Spira since this event. According to the man from Dream Zanarkand, who calls himself Zanar, ten years have also passed in that place. For every year that passes in Spira, a year passes in Dream Zanarkand. This also suggests the dynamic reality of events there; it does not reset to Jecht again excelling in Blitzball. Rather, the torch has passed to the next generation.

Driving the point home even further, we later observe a discussion between Tidus and Yuna where we are left with no doubt that the times correspond.


Yuna: You're a blitzball player, aren't you? From Zanarkand, right?

Tidus: You hear that from Wakka? Wakka doesn't believe me at all.

Yuna: But I believe you! I've heard, in Zanarkand...there is a great
stadium, all lit up even at night!

Tidus: Huh?

Yuna: Great blitzball tournaments are held there, and the stands are
always full!

Tidus: How do you know that?

Yuna: A man named Jecht told me. He was my father's guardian.

Tidus mumbles "Jecht" to himself in an unhappy way.

Tidus: My father...his name is Jecht!

Yuna: Amazing! You know, our meeting like this must be the blessing of
Yevon!

Tidus: Sounds like him, but it can't be him.

Yuna: Why not?

Tidus: My old man, he died. Ten years ago, off the coast of Zanarkand.

Yuna: I'm sorry.

Tidus: He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back.
And no one's seen him since then.

Yuna: Why, that's the day that Jecht came to Spira. It's true! I first
met Jecht ten years and three months ago! I remember, that was the day
my father left. The date fits, doesn't it?


Furthermore, we repeatedly see that Tidus himself has changed as time has passed. In several instances, we see flashbacks of a young Tidus, a child in Dream Zanarkand.


Jecht: You with a woman? You can't even catch a ball! Oh, what's the
matter? Gonna cry again? Cry, cry. That's the only thing you're good
for!

Young Tidus: I hate you.

Jecht: Huh? What'd you say?


Man: But, it's been nearly... It's been nearly a day already.

Woman: Perhaps you could go look for us.

Man: People are searching for him now.

Woman: Thank you.

Young Tidus: Who cares whether he comes back or not?

Woman: But he might die!

Young Tidus: Fine, let him!

Woman: Do you... Do you hate him so?

Young Tidus nods "yes".

Woman: If he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate
him.



Jecht: See? I told him what I thought of him, right there!

Tidus' Mom: Really?

Jecht: 'Course!

Tidus' Mom: I suppose, but...

Young Tidus: Mommy...

Tidus' Mom: Just a sec, dear.

Again, we see the change wrought by time. Ten years ago, Tidus was a child. Presently, he is a young adult.

Thus, while they are dependent upon the fayth and the Summoning within Sin for substantiation, the citizenry is entirely different from the residents that the fayth Dreamt to originally populate Dream Zanarkand. However, this citizenry is unaware of the Spira that exists outside the borders of Dream Zanarkand. Tidus had never heard of Bevelle, or Luca, or the actual Zanarkand, or any other location in Spira. As a result, he interpreted the Zanarkand long destroyed to be the same as Dream Zanarkand, his Zanarkand. This led many to the mistaken assumption that Tidus had been Dreamt 1000 years ago, the memory of Shuyin. However, realizing that Tidus really is only 17, we can see that the temporal distance between Shuyin and Tidus is massive. Tidus is certainly many generations removed from the original memories of Dream Zanarkand, and thus has no link of this manner to Shuyin.

Others have suggested that Tidus is the reincarnation of Shuyin. This has also led to the belief that Yuna is Lenne reincarnated, and that their love was, in a sense, preordained. However, based on the events of and facts revealed in FFX-2, we know that such is far from the case.

Often, in various mythologies, a reincarnated individual retains memories from his former life. Tidus, from what we see in FFX, has no such recollection. While this point does little to disprove a reincarnation theory, it does serve as additional evidence to accompany a host of other points. First, let us recall that Tidus is an Aeon, a Dream. His existence is dependent upon the Dreaming of the Fayth; when the defeat of Yu Yevon at the end of FFX ends the Summoning, the Dreaming ceases and Tidus dies. As a consequence, he goes to the Farplane for two years. We see from this, then, that Tidus’ very existence is dependent upon the fayth. As a result, any basis for spiritual reincarnation would be built on another Dream. It is impossible, in being Dreamt, to move outside this milieu. Tidus, then, could arguably be a reincarnation of Dream Zanarkand’s Shuyin, although there is no reason for this. In any case, he is certainly separated from the real Shuyin, who was never dependent in any way upon Yu Yevon’s Summoning.

Most compelling, however, is the fact that Shuyin still exists in Spira. Consumed by anger, his memories and spirit inhabited the Den of Woe for the 1000 years that followed his death. Shuyin never went to the Farplane; he is, in essence, Unsent. As Shuyin himself is still fully existent in the physical Spira, reincarnation necessarily implies a paradox. Shuyin still exists, which would deny the possibility of spiritual reincarnation.

The original memories point returns more strikingly when we examine Yuna and Lenne. Early in FFX-2, Yuna describes feeling the emotions of another person when utilizing the Songstress Dressphere.


Yuna: (narrating) My body just started dancing by itself. I didn't know what was
going on. I was...frightened. Then, while I was dancing, something happened...

In the Celsius...

Rikku: (to Yuna) You sure looked like you were enjoying yourself.

Yuna: I was. It felt like some other person's excitement just took over.

Shinra: That can happen when you use the Garment Grid. The emotions of the
person recorded in the sphere pass to the user.


Note that Yuna feels full and complete separation from these memories, even though they controlled her to a degree. They were someone else’s. As the game progresses, and Yuna becomes aware of Lenne’s story, she still feels no connection. Lenne is fully separate, and their physical and professional (Summoner/musician) similarities seem merely coincidental (or symbolic, as the case may be).

Most important, however, is the concert on the Thunder Plains that takes place in Chapter 4. Here, we see the very spirit of Lenne, come out of the Songstress Dressphere. This helps clarify several ideas. Lenne’s soul crystallized to form the Dressphere. During the concert, her spirit emerged without affecting Yuna.

Finally, note that Lenne’s spirit leaves with Shuyin at the end of the game. Clearly, Yuna is no more a reincarnation of Lenne than Tidus is of Shuyin.

Having deconstructed these views, however, we must examine any and all possibilities as to why Tidus and Shuyin resemble each other. Now, unless there is some overriding presence in Spira that dictates fate (and there is no indication that such an entity exists), we must assume that Shuyin’s appearance was a random occurrence, with no greater significance. That, accompanied by the fact that Shuyin predated Tidus by a millennium, suggests that it is Tidus who resembles Shuyin, and not the other way around. Tidus, as we know, is a Dream of the Fayth (in essence, an Aeon).

In FFX…


Rikku: Wake up! Wake up!

Tidus: Wait...this is a dream.

Fayth: Precisely.

Tidus: A dream? Are you crazy? I don't have time to be dreaming now!

Fayth: You're wrong. It's not that you're dreaming. You are a dream.

Tidus: Huh? Wait a sec.

Tidus follow the fayth outside the boat. In the top section of the boat...

Fayth: Long ago, there was a war.

Tidus: Yeah, with machina, right?

Fayth: Yes. A war between Zanarkand and Bevelle. Bevelle's machina
assured their victory from the start. Spira had never seen such power.
The summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance. Zanarkand was doomed
to oblivion. That's why we tried to save it-if only in a memory.

Tidus: What did you do?

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the
war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Tidus: The people... What, they're all dreams? Me, too?

Fayth: Yes, you're a dream of the fayth. You, your father, your mother,
everyone. All dreams.

Now, while the specifics of Tidus’ existence may seem independent from the actions of the fayth (i.e. the dynamic nature of Dream Zanarkand’s population), Tidus was still bound to existence by Yu Yevon’s Summoning and the Dreaming of the Fayth. This means that, although the fayth may not have directly influenced Tidus’ appearance, Tidus was still dependent upon the fayth for the substance of his manifestation. In the world of FFX and FFX-2, pyreflies are often the stuff of animation. Scanning a number of enemies will reveal that they are comprised of physical objects or substances, animated by pyreflies.


(from Shinra’s Bestiary) -Iron Giant- Description: A fiend that appears to be a machine but is actually an empty suit of armor animated by pyreflies. Physical attacks are ineffective, but it is vulnerable to magic


(from Shinra’s Bestiary) -Protean Gel- Description: A fiend born of pyreflies that have fused with water. Its gelatinous body renders physical attacks useless, ands its ability to change the element it absorbs is just plain wrong.

Now, we know that Shuyin himself, after death, existed as an Unsent. However, he was an unusual Unsent; somehow, his emotions “bonded” with pyreflies.


Rikku: Shuyin is no ordinary unsent!

Paine: Seems that way. When he died a thousand years ago, his feelings became intertwined with the pyreflies, creating this... apparition.

It will ultimately be my contention, then, that the pyreflies used to give Tidus substance were somehow recycled from Shuyin. These pyreflies derive from the Unsent Shuyin of Spira, not the hypothetical Aeon Shuyin of Dream Zanarakand. In this way, Shuyin’s physical self was (likely unintentionally) reused as a template for Tidus. Arguably, this could determine the physical nature of all Dream Zanarkand residents; while the fayth may not consciously determine the citizens’ appearances, merely utilizing certain pyreflies predestines one’s (if one is a Dream) looks and features.

Note what Shinra’s Glossary of Spira tells us about pyreflies.


Glossary of Spira: -Pyreflies-
A type of matter that drifts throughout Spira via its waterways. Despite the name, pyreflies are not insects and have no physical form. Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

Pyreflies are known to be a form of matter, yet do not have any physical form of their own. We also know that they are related to aeons. Given that the Dreams have some autonomy from the fayth, yet are still bound to existence by the Summoning, one can easily conjecture that pyreflies form this link. Although independent (to a degree), the citizens of Dream Zanarkand are comprised of pyreflies. When Yu Yevon was defeated, that force which made the pyreflies take on physical form was lost. Hence, the souls of the Dreams went to the Farplane.

Pyreflies and preservation of Shuyin’s physical self can also be used to explain the Overdrive similarities; Tidus’ attacks were unknowingly modeled after Shuyin’s abilities of a thousand years earlier. This also explains how Tidus grew battle-proficient so quickly. In FFX, Tidus can barely lift the Longsword after it is given to him by Auron in the first battle. However, after establishing some balance, Tidus is able to fight reasonably well (certainly much better than one would expect from a teenager with no combat experience, especially when he can barely hold his weapon). In this battle, then, we see the physical gifts of Shuyin manifesting themselves in Tidus.

It’s important, of course, to distinguish between the possibility I have raised here, and the reincarnation theory debunked earlier in this essay. This is particularly notable, since it was Shuyin’s feelings that “intertwined” with the pyreflies. However, what I propose is, in actuality, profoundly different.

Spiritual reincarnation would involve Shuyin being reborn as Tidus, so to speak. On some deeper level, Tidus would likely have the memories and opinions of Shuyin. If this were the case, Tidus would not have any desire to save Spira. However, we know that Shuyin’s spirit is not the foundation for Tidus. Manipulation of Shuyin’s spirit would likely require some omnipotent entity, a God really, for such an occurrence. Not only is there no implication of such a being in FFX/X-2, but, even if there were, Tidus was manifested by Yu Yevon and the Fayth. There seems to be no way that they could control the soul of Shuyin. Most compelling, as noted earlier, is that Shuyin’s essence still exists in Spira.

As seen in both FFX and FFX-2, however, pyreflies allow for the establishment of physical form. While they can interact with thoughts and emotions, it’s clear that they are the stuff of much of Spira’s matter (or at least interact with it). I would propose, then, that manipulation of pyreflies was absolutely necessary to embody the memories of Zanarkand; indeed, this was the substance of the entire Dream. Woven by the Summoning, Dream Zanarkand unraveled into its component pyreflies when the Summoning was ended. However, the Dreams’ deeper identities, their souls, did not vanish. Tidus returns at the end of FFX-2 (in the Good and Perfect endings), and we see evidence of both Tidus’ mother and Jecht on the Farplane at different times in FFX. We can assume, then, that the physical form generated by the Summoning, the Dreaming, becomes a vessel for a soul. The physical form may be unknowingly recycled, but the person is not a carbon copy of their material counterpart. In the case of the Dreams, the pyreflies that comprise them may recall their previous materialized form, but the overall creation is decidedly different.

Ultimately, Tidus is a unique individual, though physically similar (even identical) to Shuyin. Tidus, in being Dreamt by the fayth, would have slowly developed his own opinions and personality, in the same manner as anyone else. Physically, however, he is the recycled Shuyin, ironically mirroring his physical model in contrary action. Thus, in Tidus, we do see the ultimate reversal of Spira’s “Spiral of Death;” he embodies the fall of Sin, the resurrection of the physical body, and, perhaps most powerfully, the regeneration of the ultimate seeker of death into the ultimate seeker of life.

Admittedly, much of my explanation involves pure speculation. There may even be certain in-game fallacies; I view this document as a work in progress. Nevertheless, even if my theory falls short in some way, I do believe that it is possible to reach an explanation for this seemingly insoluble phenomenon. As such, your own comments and conjecture will be greatly appreciated.

I’d also like to thank Squall of SeeD. In a different thread, he provided the information showing that time passes in Dream Zanarkand as it does in Spira, as well as the Thunder Plains concert showing the separation between Lenne and Yuna.

[Christmas]

So in short it the pyrefiles that once used to give Shuyin substance is sucked away by Yevon while summoning the gravity spell into dream Zanarkand to give Tidus substance since:


Sin isn't an Aeon anyway, actually. Sin is just a whole lot of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells.

And for the looks and character it is due to:


Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

But look at this, if Tidus is form by pyrefiles which once used to form Shuyin, dun you think Tidus will have some memories or some illusions that is inter-related with Shuyin. Like when Yuna used the songstress' dress sphere, she inherited some of Leene's emotions(thoughts and memories too? Sorry, I can't remember..) and started having dreams like being shot dead.

Of course since pyrefiles and sphere is two different things but surely Tidus might have some images of Shuyin since they are so closely related but one can also argue that Yevon wash away all those stuff when Tidus is in Dream Zanarkand. But do anyone think that it will be possible to at least gain back some thoughts or images of Shuyin when Tidus is out of Dream Zanarkand.

Just my little silly thoughts though... :greenie:

[Squall of SeeD]

Of course since pyrefiles and sphere is two different things but surely Tidus might have some images of Shuyin since they are so closely related but one can also argue that Yevon wash away all those stuff when Tidus is in Dream Zanarkand.

Actually, Spheres are crystalized Spirit Energy (Pyreflies), so your question is valid.

Anyway, yes, I'd think it fair to assume that Tidus would have experienced some of the memories of Shuyin. That said, I think that's what masamune was getting at with Tidus being able to learn how to use swords so quickly and with very little difficulty aside from getting accumstomed to holding the weight, which he does very quickly. Masamune was saying that while he may not have remembered ever using swords, some of the memories in his Spirit Energy did and that allowed him to quickly pick up their use. He's also saying that the memories associated with using a sword (the Overdrives) were also incorporated into Tidus' make-up.


Now, with all that said, there's something I want to touch on. Seeing as how Shuyin's Spirit Energy had remained in Spira and the Pyreflies with which his emotions had bonded had remained in the Den of Woe, where would Spirit Energy from Shuyin have been derived? His own was still with him in the Den of Woe. The implication is that Shuyin himself was in the Den of Woe, as it was in there that Nooj was possessed by him two years before X-2 began. With that in mind, it was the same apparition that was within Nooj that transferred to Baralai, who was then used to go to the Farplane and use Vegnagun. It was the apparition within Baralai that is then fought and defeated on the Farplane, and which afterward goes to be at peace with Lenne.

With all that in mind, Tidus was born 19 years before the events of Final Fantasy X-2 take place. Shuyin's Spirit Energy remained within the Den of Woe until the year of Tidus' death at 17 (and it's really creepy to contemplate that Tidus and Shuyin were both in the same vicinity of one another when Yuna and her entourage passed through Mushroom Rock Road during the preparations for Operation: Mi'hen). In other words, it doesn't seem very likely that Shuyin's Spirit Energy and/or memories could have had any part in Tidus' composition in that Shuyin's Spirit Energy was still with him even after Tidus was born.

The big questions I wonder here is "Who sealed the Den of Woe?" "Was Shuyin incapable of leaving until the Crimson Squad went in?" "Had Shuyin been causing problems before the Den was sealed?" "Was he somehow defeated and sealed within?"

Considering how convenient a coincedence everything involving Shuyin is (Tidus' resemblance to him, his presence in the Den of Woe where the Crimson Squad just happened to be sent, with its sole survivors later taking on pivotal roles in the future of Spira's development, a Sphere of him trapped in Bevelle somehow winding up on Mt. Gagazet), I'm going to have to conclude that Nojima hardly put as much thought into this matter as he did with matters in Final Fantasy X, in which everything seems to make sense and have been accounted for.

The resemblance between Shuyin and Tidus is just a really convenient coincedence in all likelihood, a plot device intended to two do things for the game's story:

1) Give Yuna a reason to join the Gullwings and become a Sphere Hunter.

2) Provide a plot twist later in the game when it was revealed that he isn't Tidus.


As much as I seek to find answers, I don't know if there is one to be found this time. I'll see if I can get some help with analyzing the X-2 Ultimania Guide and see if it has anything relevant to this matter.

[Nova Ultima]

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Doesn't that mean that Tidus was actually a citizen of the real Zanarkand, wich became a dream of the fayth later?

[Masamune·1600]

But look at this, if Tidus is form by pyrefiles which once used to form Shuyin, dun you think Tidus will have some memories or some illusions that is inter-related with Shuyin. Like when Yuna used the songstress' dress sphere, she inherited some of Leene's emotions(thoughts and memories too? Sorry, I can't remember..) and started having dreams like being shot dead.

Of course since pyrefiles and sphere is two different things but surely Tidus might have some images of Shuyin since they are so closely related but one can also argue that Yevon wash away all those stuff when Tidus is in Dream Zanarkand. But do anyone think that it will be possible to at least gain back some thoughts or images of Shuyin when Tidus is out of Dream Zanarkand.

Well, my theory really extends beyond Tidus and Shuyin; it looks into the mysteries of pyreflies in general in order to explain the phenomenon. That being said, I feel that the actual memories and feelings of Shuyin would have somehow been purged by the Dreaming. After all, no resident of Dream Zanarkand is aware of anything outside of the jurisdiction of the city. The pyreflies themselves used Shuyin as a template for the physical formation of Tidus, but that body housed a unique being, a unique soul.


Now, with all that said, there's something I want to touch on. Seeing as how Shuyin's Spirit Energy had remained in Spira and the Pyreflies with which his emotions had bonded had remained in the Den of Woe, where would Spirit Energy from Shuyin have been derived? His own was still with him in the Den of Woe. The implication is that Shuyin himself was in the Den of Woe, as it was in there that Nooj was possessed by him two years before X-2 began. With that in mind, it was the same apparition that was within Nooj that transferred to Baralai, who was then used to go to the Farplane and use Vegnagun. It was the apparition within Baralai that is then fought and defeated on the Farplane, and which afterward goes to be at peace with Lenne.

This was, actually, one of the two questions that really concerned me regarding my theory. The other dealt with randomness; Tidus just happened to be "built" upon a "Shuyin template." That second question can be somewhat answered by viewing Tidus as a hero of chance, as opposed to a hero of destiny, but the issue you raise still remains.

There are two ways I feel that this question can be addressed. Often, when we see pyreflies, they seem random, maybe disembodied. I feel that its possible that there could have been pyreflies that, while part of the Apparition, were not wholly necessary and could be siphoned off for other purposes. Here, then, the fayth could have utilized those pyreflies as part of the Dreaming.

The other way delves deeper into the relatively unexplored mystery of pyreflies. I feel that it is certainly possible that there can be some sort of transmission between pyreflies, some sort of almost communicable memory property. While most Fiends are simply a matter of gameplay and not story, there are quite a few Fiends, considering the matter of the Sendings. Fiends also tie into my pyrefly speculations; if pyreflies can be the physical embodiment for a soul, then they would simply be the physical template for the Unsent. In any case, if the "physical memory" of Shuyin could have somehow been transmitted between pyreflies, then Shuyin as a physical template remains plausible.

Admittedly, this explanation is not perfect. Most likely, the connection exists for the reasons you pointed out.


The resemblance between Shuyin and Tidus is just a really convenient coincedence in all likelihood, a plot device intended to two do things for the game's story:

1) Give Yuna a reason to join the Gullwings and become a Sphere Hunter.

2) Provide a plot twist later in the game when it was revealed that he isn't Tidus.

I really don't want to accept that, though. I'm sure you would also prefer a storyline explanation, and I hope that my ruminations are at least possible, if not likely.


As much as I seek to find answers, I don't know if there is one to be found this time. I'll see if I can get some help with analyzing the X-2 Ultimania Guide and see if it has anything relevant to this matter.

Let me know what you find. My access to the Ultimania Guides is somewhat limited, so I'd appreciate hearing what you discover.



Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.Doesn't that mean that Tidus was actually a citizen of the real Zanarkand, wich became a dream of the fayth later?

Actually, no. Refer to the sections of the theory that deal with the nature of time in Dream Zanarkand. As time passes there as well as in Spira, the original memory has been altered by the events of a thousand years. If Tidus were a citizen of the real Zanarkand, the Dream version, the main character of FFX, would have died hundreds of years before the events of the game. Also, note that the current Dream Zanarkand is not an exact replica of the destroyed Spiran Zanarkand. Yevon Dome has been replaced by the Blitzball Arena (so it seems to me). Further, note that Tidus has no understanding of Summoning when he first meets Yuna. Summoning seems to have been Zanarkand's primary tactic in the Machina War, which suggests some sort of disconnect between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand.

[boys from the dwarf]

OMG BIG."dies"

[Tai-Ti]

im too lazy to read all this, so im just gunna say i personaly dont see any conection beween Tidus & Shuyin.

[Cruise Control]

Slacker! Personally, this is very intriuging and worth your time to read

[Squall of SeeD]

Okay, this is what a guy named "pmog" who has translated quite a few things from the Final Fantasy Ultimania Guides had to say on the matter of Shuyin from the FFX-2 Ultimania Guides:


Given that FFX-2 is a story, everything in it is thus specifically constructed for the purpose of dramatic/thematic impact and/or meaning, etc. The story of Lenne/Shuyin is meant to parallel Yuna/Tidus' (trying to save a loved one), while also tying in with the sub-plot about war breaking out. I've found that the stories and themes in FFX and its sequel are very tightly interwoven; you really can't separate one individual strand without dragging along the whole ball of wool as well.

Thus, the purpose of the sphere with the guy-who-resembles-Tidus is to start Yuna on her journey (I guess you could call it "plot device"), but FFX-2 was never really about finding Tidus. It was about Yuna discovering herself; how much she'd changed (or hadn't), and how much of the past she was prepared to cling to (or leave behind). And that theme was also reflected in her outer journey (and in Spira as a whole). Tidus wasn't even meant to come back in the original plot.

Re: Shuyin and the Crimson Squad. Most of the background information available on Shuyin is as it was revealed in-game. After Shuyin died, his pyreflies wandered around and eventually ended up in the cave at Mushroom Rock. It's no coincidence that the Crimson Squad candidates were sent there. There had been rumours of frightening things hiding in that cave and among them, visions of a "giant machina" (all caused by Shuyin's feelings, of course). Kinoc felt that those events had something to do with Vegnagun and sent the Squad candidates there to collect info on Vegnagun, under the pretext of it being the final exercise to select Squad members. Kinoc had already heard rumours of the closely-guarded secret of Vegnagun, and wanted to control its power so that he could keep his political rival Seymour in check. But the mission ended in disaster, with most of the candidates killing each other and the information that the three survivors had provided not being much help. Kinoc gave the orders to kill all surviving witnesses, because if they ever told anyone that his instructions had brought about the whole tragedy, his position would be in danger.

Nooj, Baralai and Gippal all happened to reach positions of leadership due to various circumstances, but in some part, their experiences in that cave drove them to get there. For example, Gippal's personal reason for forming the Machine Faction was so that he could find a way of beating Vegnagun through researching machina. Baralai decided to go back to the Temples in order to solve the mystery of what he had seen in the cave, as much as for his safety (refuge through Kinoc's rival Seymour). He used the confusion in the formation of New Yevon after the Temples' collapse to gain his position, and that soon lead to him learning about the existence of Vegnagun. Nooj managed to regain control of himself after Shuyin made him shoot his friends, but Shuyin's influence still bubbled beneath the surface. That was how Nooj came to know of Vegnagun and wanted to destroy it (while the Shuyin inside him wanted to use it). Nooj formed the Youth League in protest to New Yevon's sphere monopolising tactics, but there were also other other reasons, such as his personal interest in finding out the cause of the Crimson Squad's destruction, a desire to gather together his past Crusader comrades, and his inner voice (Shuyin) urging him to get close to Vegnagun.

Re; Tidus and Shuyin. DZ is, of course, the dream of the fayth. But it wasn't made from scratch; it was an idealised city based on buildings and people that really existed (including Shuyin). However, because DZ took on a life of its own for 1000 years (people got together and formed their own unique family trees, etc), there wasn't a one-to-one correlation between dream-people and the real-life people they started off based on. The most the Ultimanias will reveal concerning Tidus/Shuyin is that one can't deny the possibility that Shuyin is the person whose dream incarnation later became what produced Tidus. But due to the DZ variables, even if Shuyin is Tidus' model, the relationship between the two of them isn't necessarily one that's close (eg. different "characters" with a similar visual template). Those sentiments are likewise echoed in the creator interview; something to the effect of "it may be not be that the two of them are completely unrelated, but that's not to say that Tidus' model is Shuyin".

There isn't as much supplementary information on FFX-2 as there was on FFX, but a large bulk of that was stuff about world setting (unnecessary for an already-established world in FFX-2), and the much of the story is less epic in "tone" (eg. events in the lives of Spirans like Dona and Wakka, which are pretty self-explanatory anyway). While FFX-2 isn't as detailed, there's still quite a lot of stuff to wade through. I can't wait to start sifting though all of it properly, but I haven't even finished reading all of FFX's yet...


Just to clear up a late night typo, my paraphrasing from the creator's interview should read: "Perhaps the two of them aren't completely unrelated, but that's not to say that Shuyin is Tidus' model".

As for clarification on the seemingly-inconsistent use of the word "model" - I'm assuming that they mean the same word in 2 different ways (look up the exact definitions in a dictionary). For example, Shuyin is *not* Tidus' model in the sense that Tidus isn't an *exact* copy of Shuyin (eg. they have different origins, lineages, personalities, etc). OTOH, it's a possibility that Tidus was loosely *modelled* after Shuyin (his "dream-version" descendant, maybe) in some way (as in "basing a character in a story or play after a real-life person" - they both have similar features, occupations, fighting styles, etc), with any other similarities being a result of very deliberate story-telling devices and techniques (producing the effect of a "coincidence").

Also, be aware that my explanations of Shuyin and the Crimson Squad aren't the entirety of all available information on those subjects; I just selectively picked out the bits that I thought were immediately relevant to your particular question.


In other words, it tells us nothing more than what we knew before (though the stuff about the Crimson Squad candidates rising to their positions in the world after Yevon partly as a result of what they saw is new).

[Tai-Ti]

Slacker! Personally, this is very intriuging and worth your time to read

Dont care wat u say, i still dont really see a conection, except mayb that cause Tidus's Zanarkand is like a replica of the original, they could b conected in that way, but, unless sum1 from Square says so, or its in a stratagy guide, or is mentioned in the game, we can only guess ne conection. I think its just one of those things that we ant meant to question, and just let be, but u can b rebels :D

[Xalibar]

So in short it the pyrefiles that once used to give Shuyin substance is sucked away by Yevon while summoning the gravity spell into dream Zanarkand to give Tidus substance since:


Sin isn't an Aeon anyway, actually. Sin is just a whole lot of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells.

And for the looks and character it is due to:


Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

But look at this, if Tidus is form by pyrefiles which once used to form Shuyin, dun you think Tidus will have some memories or some illusions that is inter-related with Shuyin. Like when Yuna used the songstress' dress sphere, she inherited some of Leene's emotions(thoughts and memories too? Sorry, I can't remember..) and started having dreams like being shot dead.

Of course since pyrefiles and sphere is two different things but surely Tidus might have some images of Shuyin since they are so closely related but one can also argue that Yevon wash away all those stuff when Tidus is in Dream Zanarkand. But do anyone think that it will be possible to at least gain back some thoughts or images of Shuyin when Tidus is out of Dream Zanarkand.

Just my little silly thoughts though... :greenie:

which character said that sin is held by gravity spells?

[Christmas]

Not exactly. The Aeons simply serve as a means by which Sin will have a vessel through which to channel Gravity Spells and reform Sin, with his new body (the Aeon) as the focal point of the gathering of Pyreflies. The first time he created Sin, his own body was the focal point. He simply can't generate the Gravity Spells needed to reform Sin without a body, and so he takes the Aeons bodies. Combining his own Spirit Energy with theirs, his will dominates their own.

The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega Guide actually says that Sin is composed of Pyreflies held together by Gravity Spells. We see evidence of this in-game in two ways:

1) Sin's appearance can be altered at will easily, as it does during Operation: Mi'hen. Go to BlueLaguna.net and download the video entitled "Judgement," or turn on your copy of FFX and go to Luca and watch the same FMV there:

http://bluelaguna.net/movies/ffx/fmvs.php


2) Mika states that Yu Yevon crafts the souls of the dead into Sin:


Quote:
Rikku
"Wait, gramps! Who's Yu Yevon?"

Mika
"He who crafts the souls of the dead into unholy armor."
"An armor called Sin."


As we know, Pyreflies are Spirit Energy, the souls of the dead.

Also, during the game's ending, Yuna sends the Pyreflies of which Sin and the Aeons were composed to the Farplane. In the Aeons' cases, they just disippitate calmly as their Pyreflies disperse, whereas Sin goes up in a huge explosion of Spirit Energy that carries from Bevelle all the way across the Calm Lands. It was composed of millions of Pyreflies.

[Squall of SeeD]

which character said that sin is held by gravity spells?

It's stated in the Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega Guide. In-game, it's made quite apparent, however, by Sin's use of Gravity Spells and the fact that its shape can be modified at will.

[Tensa Zangetsu]

I've been reading trough this and I started thinking of something.

The Aeons tell us that The Shujin we meet is not the real Shujin, and that Shujin died long ago. It's his feeling that are preserved, his feelings were so strong that they took form. The same can go for Lenne I believe, as she so much wanted to tell Shujin that she loved him.

And it is possible in my oppinion that Tidus is a reincarnation of Shujin.
For the faith to dream up the citizens of Zanarkand, they need souls. Can the Faith create souls to insert into the people of dream Zanarkand? I'm not sure, but maybe this is what you meant about recycling souls. This does not seem impossible as it seems that the faith can manipulate pyreflies to their wishes.

Just some thoughts. Great theory though.

[Squall of SeeD]

I've been reading trough this and I started thinking of something.

The Aeons tell us that The Shujin we meet is not the real Shujin, and that Shujin died long ago. It's his feeling that are preserved, his feelings were so strong that they took form.

Well, he's clearly established as an Unsent. It's just that his feelings of hate and despair consumed him, but that's not all that there is to him, as is made evident by Lenne's love soothing him.



And it is possible in my oppinion that Tidus is a reincarnation of Shujin.

For the faith to dream up the citizens of Zanarkand, they need souls. Can the Faith create souls to insert into the people of dream Zanarkand? I'm not sure, but maybe this is what you meant about recycling souls. This does not seem impossible as it seems that the faith can manipulate pyreflies to their wishes.

Technically, it's Yu Yevon and other Summoners that manipulate Pyreflies, but I see the point you're trying to make. In any event, the problem with this theory is that Shuyin and Tidus were present in Spira at the same time, leaving it rather unlikely that Tidus could in any way be a reincarnation of him. While it may be possible that something of his memories were imprinted upon the Pyreflies used to compose Tidus, we're left with the question of how those Pyreflies got all the way to Dream Zanarkand, whereever it may be in Spira.

It's not impossible. It's just so hokey and unelaborated within the story itself as to leave us without a simple means of explaining it.

[Tensa Zangetsu]

OOOOOOOh. OK now i feel kind of stupid but it all makes sense now. I always believed that Dream Zanarkand was INSIDE Sin, that it did'nt belong to Spira but was in a world of its own kindof. Makes sense now tho. Why would Sin come get Jecht anyways.

[BizzerocitY]

Okay, Okay, In summary, "IF Shuyin didn't look like Tidus, then there would be absolutely no reason for FFX-2 to exist."

Why can't Tidus ever be Tidus? Why's he gotta look like Chappu or Shuyin?

[SammieBabe]

This has been an intriguing thread... very cool... props to those who did their homework and didn't just post out of the blue....
But.... In X everyone says how much Tidus looks like Chappu too... where dos he fall into place?....

[Tensa Zangetsu]

The deal about Tidus resembling Chappu imo, is only something they came up with to make Wakka want to shelter Tidus, and bring him along.

[Masamune·1600]

Squall mentioned to me in a PM that he won't be posting here for some time, but did suggest that I post his recently developed explanation for the similarity between Tidus and Shuyin. Here, quoted from the PM, is what he said.


The largest misconception concerning Final Fantasy X and X-2 is that Tidus is the dream version of Shuyin. This is simply not the case and I will here explain why, and then offer an explanation for the striking resemblance between the two..

As is well known, Dream Zanarkand had existed for 1000 years. Dream Shuyin should have long since died, as the people of Dream Zanarkand are subject to the same mortality as people in the rest of Spira. Further still, it's assured that the Fayth did not wait 1000 years to project memories of Shuyin, as it's stated by the Bahamut Fayth that the memories of the Fayth on Gagazet were utilized to summon all the buildings in the city and even all the people who lived there:

Quote:
Fayth
"The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war..."
"They all became fayth--fayth for the summoning."

Tidus
"The summoning... You mean Sin?"

Fayth
"No. I mean this place."
"A Zanarkand that never sleeps."

Tidus
"What?"

Fayth
"The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city."
"They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there."



Dream Shuyin would have been summoned some 1000 years before Tidus' birth, along with the city itself. As such, Dream Shuyin would have also died some 1000 years before Tidus' birth.

Also notable is that even had a Dream Shuyin not been created 1000 years before, there's no reason for Yu Yevon to be making people at this point any longer in the first place, as the people of Dream Zanarkand are living, breathing, reproducing people. The population of Dream Zanarkand would take care of the matter of providing future generations on their own. For that matter, we know that Yu Yevon didn't randomly create Tidus, as we see the parents that he was born of. This is not to say, however, that Tidus couldn't possibly be a descendant of Dream Shuyin. It's not at all uncommon or unheard of for characters in Fantasy tales or RPGs to bear a striking resemblance to their ancestor (such as Marle in Chrono Trigger looking almost exactly like Queen Leene, her ancestor of five generations before).

Being aware of the matter of time passing the same in Dream Zanarkand as it does in Spira, some have come to believe that Dream Zanarkand must reset occasionally, as they see no other explanation for Tidus' resemblance to Shuyin other than Shuyin having been the basis for him. However, it's not at all accurate that Dream Zanarkand exists as a temporal causality loop that resets every few years. Most notably, this isn't suggested by the game, nor do we see evidence for it within the story. For that matter, there's not even any reason implied for such a thing to take place, nor any apparent purpose it could possibly serve.

Striking resemblances are no stranger to Fantasy tales, nor to Japanese tales in games or Anime (think of Taurus/Turlis and Gokou in Dragon Ball Z's third film, The Tree of Might), nor to even Final Fantasy games (Maria and Celes in Final Fantasy VI, for instance), and quite often there is no relation or previous connection of any kind between the characters bearing resemblances to one another.

With all that said, a common explanation for the similarities between the appearances of the two -- and it is certainly a striking resemblance at that -- is that Dream Shuyin may be Tidus' ancestor. While this is certainly a possibility, something to be kept in mind concerning the people of Dream Zanarkand is that their bodies aren't so much normal flesh and blood -- in which case genetics plays the core role in the appearance of a child -- as they are Pyreflies that have manifested into a living body, with the basis for their formation being in the memories of the Fayth. As the Bahamut Fayth said, the Fayth's dreams summoned "the memories of the city" of Zanarkand. As with any Fayth, the appearance of the Aeon produced is going to have a basis in the memories of the Fayth from which the memories come. The Aeon that comes as a result need not appear as an exact replica of that upon which it is based. Take the Fayth statues seen in the Temples for instance: They bear strong resemblances to the Aeons which they are used to produce, yet the appearances are not exact. An example of this is the Ixion Fayth:

Ixion's Fayth.
Ixion.

As can be seen here, the memories of the Fayth are merely used as a basis for the Aeon that the Summoner will manifest. Similarily, the basis of Dream Zanarkand's Blitzball stadium is the Yevon Dome seen in the ruins of the original Zanarkand.

With the fact in mind that a Fayth's memories need not be produced into an exact replica when summoned as an Aeon, consider again the Bahamut Fayth's words to Tidus:

Quote:
Fayth
"The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city."
"They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there."



The dreams of the Fayth summoned their memories of the city. As they had known it. With that in mind, recall that Yu Yevon continues to tap into their dreams to access their memories and summon Dream Zanarkand and its citizens. While its citizens are the descendants of those who were originally summoned to live there, they are still summoned from the Fayth's memories of the city, even while time continues to advance there and these people are each different and unique from one another and their ancestors. Thus, rather than genetics playing a role in the appearances that children will take, the memories of the Fayth play this role. As such, all who are summoned into Dream Zanarkand have some basis in the Fayth's memories of the city.

With it being the Fayth's memories of Zanarkand that Yu Yevon uses to summon Dream Zanarkand and the Aeons that inhabit it, the appearance of everyone in the city is based on the Fayth's memories, and, further, there is a limited number of appearances that could be used as templates for the appearances of Dream Zanarkand's people. As such, variations are made on the templates, possibly to prevent more than one person from bearing a certain exact appearance.

Most likely, this is the reason for which Tidus bears an appearance similar to Shuyin, as well as a similar fighting style (as seen in the battle with Shuyin at the end of Final Fantasy X-2): With a limited number of physical templates from which to make Aeons in Dream Zanarkand due to the appearances being based on the Fayth's memories of Zanarkand -- which we know they must, as the Bahamut Fayth makes it clear that Yu Yevon forces the Fayth ton continue dreaming of Zanarkand -- and with the Aeons coming as a result of such memories, it is likely that everyone in Dream Zanarkand bears an appearance that has its basis in the appearance of someone from the original Zanarkand. While the appearances are based on those of the original Zanarkand's inhabitants, they are not exact and the people receiving these appearances are not the same people as those who happen to be the basis for the others' apperances. This is most likely the case with Tidus. His appearance and any superficial characteristics associated with it are drawn from Shuyin, even while Tidus as a person is wholly seperate and in no way necessarily connected to Shuyin.

On the part of the creators, Shuyin's appearance was certainly intended for the purpose of causing Yuna to believe that Tidus may yet be alive and that she could find him. This caused her to join the Gullwings, and it provided a plot twist for the game when Shuyin was revealed to be someone who most obviously wasn't Tidus. However, even from a storyline standpoint, a very clear and logical explanation -- as shown above -- can be derived to explain Tidus' resemblance to Shuyin with it leaving no fallacies and no points unaccounted for. No matter the explanation, we're, of course, left with the astounding coincedence that these two young men who would play such an important role in Spira's development -- and Yuna's life -- would have similar appearances. However, in such stories as these, amazing coincedences are to be expected, or at least excused for their contribution to the plot.

In conclusion, the most likely explanation for Tidus' resemblance to Shuyin is that Shuyin is the template upon which Tidus' physical characteristics are based, with everyone in Dream Zanarkand having someone from the original Zanarkand as their physical template, though Tidus is not at all the Dream Zanarkand version of Shuyin.

Again, note that this is Squall's work, not my own. I do agree, however, with the theory.

As to the point regarding Chappu, I would say this falls into what Squall called "amazing coincidences." In that case, however, the plot point is minor, and doesn't invite the questioning that the Shuyin/Tidus similarities did and do.

[brother's bigger brother]

try gettin many people to read that i tryed but got confussed half way through

[Rand Al'Tor]

Very interesting and thought provoking read. I agree withy the main thrust, but I do think Tidus and Shuyin would have more than 'looks and techniques' in common. Their lives were different but I think a lot of character traits would still pass over.

Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same. I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.

Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.

But Tidus and Shuying are so different!

Are they?

Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that. They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.

I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)

So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.

Hmm.... Note that the Fayth probably WOULD recognize Shuyin though. And that they'd seek to contact him, since in a way, he's like them. But not entirely. After all the Fayth, and he could be considered something of an authority on the matter, does say that this Shuyin is just a shadow.

[Mercen-X]

I like it. I like it a lot. I had often wondered about the similarities between T/Y and S/L. So, wait, first, were the similarities between Yuna and Lenne a coincidence?

Shuyin died a thousand years ago trying to usurp control of Vegnagun to save his love, Lenne, for she was soon to Pilgrimage for Aeons to battle Bevelle. They, in the end, died together, but Shuyin was unable to accept it. Filled with bitterness, his essence merged with the pyreflies which preserved his memories (along with his desire to use Vegnagun on the world) for a thousand years, at some point being present in the Mushroom Rock cave.

Tidus is a dream of the Fayth who wished to defeat Sin. As is common in any dream, Tidus and the rest of Zanarkand was based on the physical recollection of what had once already existed. However, again, as is common in dreams, Tidus and Zanarkand were not identical to whom or what they were modelled after. Tidus's thoughts, emotions, and memories, his ideals and opinions were all his own. His body possessed the memories present in the body of Shuyin thus allowing him to learn quickly to fight. However, the memory of the body is different from the memory of the mind. Anyone who has ever watched the Borne Identity or The Long Kiss Goodnight would know this.

The physical memory is how Tidus' attacks look similar to Shuyin's as has been mentioned. Easiest question ever to answer is why their attacks don't simply share their names as well. Tidus names his attacks based on his attitude whereas Shuyin named his attacks long ago based on his own attitude. This in itself lends evidence that Tidus does not think like Shuyin.

A question I developed when reading about Dream Zanarkand is why it too was destroyed. Ten years previous, Jecht, an unbelievable Blitzball champion, was brought to Spira to be Summoner Braska's Guardian. Perhaps after merging with Yu Yevon in the casting of the Final Aeon, his thoughts concerning Tidus drove Yu Yevon to destroy Dream Zanarkand in effort to prevent Tidus from becoming a Guardian to a future Summoner. Perhaps it was somehow known that Tidus would stop the cycle of Final Aeon and Sin as in some prophetic vision.

I can't really make any real assumptions, I haven't played either of the games in a while .

[Masamune·1600]

Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same.

Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."


I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.

Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.


[...]Also, note that the current Dream Zanarkand is not an exact replica of the destroyed Spiran Zanarkand. Yevon Dome has been replaced by the Blitzball Arena (so it seems to me). Further, note that Tidus has no understanding of Summoning when he first meets Yuna. Summoning seems to have been Zanarkand's primary tactic in the Machina War, which suggests some sort of disconnect between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand.

While it makes sense to argue that the Dream might have been based on pre-Machina War Zanarkand, Summoning was likely a part of the city's culture for long before that. Removing Summoning from Dream Zanarkand, either by conscious decision or by the passage of time, is inescaply a departure from the reality of Zanarkand as it once existed.


Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.

Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.


But Tidus and Shuying are so different!

Are they?

Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that.

It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.



They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.

I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)

So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.

As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.


I like it. I like it a lot. I had often wondered about the similarities between T/Y and S/L. So, wait, first, were the similarities between Yuna and Lenne a coincidence?

It's a difficult question, but I can only conclude that they are (or rather, that they're merely symbolic). It would be impossible for there to be any continuity between Lenne and Yuna, as reincarnation is impossible. It's similarly impossible for Yuna to be a descendent of Lenne. As to Tidus and Yuna's relationship mirroring Shuyin and Lenne's, it was a departure from the intent of the Summoning that Tidus and Yuna even met.


His body possessed the memories present in the body of Shuyin thus allowing him to learn quickly to fight. However, the memory of the body is different from the memory of the mind.

Exactly.


A question I developed when reading about Dream Zanarkand is why it too was destroyed. Ten years previous, Jecht, an unbelievable Blitzball champion, was brought to Spira to be Summoner Braska's Guardian. Perhaps after merging with Yu Yevon in the casting of the Final Aeon, his thoughts concerning Tidus drove Yu Yevon to destroy Dream Zanarkand in effort to prevent Tidus from becoming a Guardian to a future Summoner. Perhaps it was somehow known that Tidus would stop the cycle of Final Aeon and Sin as in some prophetic vision.

I can't really make any real assumptions, I haven't played either of the games in a while .

Basically, the events of FFX as concerned Tidus required an accident, a departure from the intent of the Summoning/Dreaming. Dream Zanarkand was supposed to be completely isolated from Spira (note that Dream Zanarkand is a physical location in Spira, as opposed to another dimension/plane of existence). While training for Blitzball in the sea, however, Jecht came into contact with Sin, which both removed a certain overcontrol exerted as part of the Summoning, and led him to wind up in Spira. This unintended occurance culminated in Jecht himself "becoming" Sin. Even in Sin, part of Jecht still manifested himself (a "preference" for the Hymn of the Fayth makes this clear). Sin, as Jecht, went to Dream Zanarkand solely because of Tidus. Tidus, in his encounter with Sin, also escaped the overcontrol, and ultimately ended up in Spira.

In summation, Sin attacked Dream Zanarkand because, well, Sin is destructive. Recall that Sin even destroyed the original Zanarkand (although had it not, Bevelle probably would have). However, Sin specifically went to Dream Zanarkand because Jecht wanted to see his son. As Sin is the only means whereby a resident of Dream Zanarkand could move beyond the reality of the city, Yu Yevon would not have wanted Sin anywhere in its vicinity.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same.

Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."

I do realize that Tidus, in no way carries anything from Shuyin's soul, as Shuyin, even IF what we fight is just a shadow of him, died in bevelle and presumably wnet to the Farplane and left some emotions behind that became insane Shuyin, OR or became Insane-Shuyin himself. Irrelevant to the dicussion, whatever the case, I agree that Tidus carries in him NO PART of Shuyin.

However, Tidus is dreamt by Fayth. And whiloe a certain element of randomization can apply, considering that he already LOOKS like Shuyin and FIGHTS like Shuyin, and those things are IMHOa DELIBERATE thing by the faiyth I think it's likely he has lots of emoitional tendencies in common with Shuyin, eventhough they indeed have lead different lives. (though they were likely BOTH Blitzers, as Shuyin ALSO uses a ball in his overdrive)



I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.

Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.

Not really. Resetting would be impossible because of the guy mentioning something about ten years ago. The proof doesn't say anything about how when person A dies in Dream Zanarkand, the Fayth dream it so that person A, who is an integral part of their cherished memory, is born somewhere entirely else. He'd be somewhat different of course, but still recognizable enough for a satisfying dream. If Tidus is nothing like Shuyin, and all people are nothing like the original Zanarkanders, except in looks, what's the point of trying to preserve the memory?



[...]Also, note that the current Dream Zanarkand is not an exact replica of the destroyed Spiran Zanarkand. Yevon Dome has been replaced by the Blitzball Arena (so it seems to me). Further, note that Tidus has no understanding of Summoning when he first meets Yuna. Summoning seems to have been Zanarkand's primary tactic in the Machina War, which suggests some sort of disconnect between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand.

There IS a dicsonnect. I would keep in mind

v[/quote]

Summoners would remind the Fayth of the war, and besides remind the Dream Zanarkand is a dream, and for plot reasons would be a hindrance as well. Heck, just loo at OUR cities. Would you recognize Rome (to take an old city) from a thousand years ago? Or from a thousand year in the future? Even if you lived there? There IS a disconnect, but it's there because the Fayth wanted it to be. If Dream Zanarkand was just started off and then given free reign, it'd have changed a whole lot more than lacking Summonners. (Also, the Yevon Dome, wouldn't Yevon have constructed that AFTER the whole mess? And even if he did before, consideirng what he's done, the Fayth would probably not want to remember HIM either)



Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.

Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.

A question of how much Flux it was in, and how far it was allowed to stray. The Sphere we see in FFX-2 shows a REAL Zanarkand that looks just like Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand that is a thousand year older.



But Tidus and Shuying are so different!

Are they?

Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that.

It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.

If you're gonna make it so that later 'Dream-citizens' LOOK and FIGHT like actual 'historic citizens' than it would seem very off to me that you go 'Oh, but their personality has NO link at all' Tidus is not built on Shuyin, but I would say he was built on the MEMORIES of Shuyin, and then inserted in Zanarkand.




They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.

I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)

So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.

As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.

Oh no, not saying any of that. And as I said, the SOUL of Shuyin has NO link at all to Tidus. But the MEMORY of Shuyin, as dreamt by the Fayth, does. And I would say, in more than just 'looks and swordfight stuff'

[Masamune·1600]

Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same.

Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."

I do realize that Tidus, in no way carries anything from Shuyin's soul, as Shuyin, even IF what we fight is just a shadow of him, died in bevelle and presumably wnet to the Farplane and left some emotions behind that became insane Shuyin, OR or became Insane-Shuyin himself. Irrelevant to the dicussion, whatever the case, I agree that Tidus carries in him NO PART of Shuyin.

However, Tidus is dreamt by Fayth. And whiloe a certain element of randomization can apply, considering that he already LOOKS like Shuyin and FIGHTS like Shuyin, and those things are IMHOa DELIBERATE thing by the faiyth I think it's likely he has lots of emoitional tendencies in common with Shuyin, eventhough they indeed have lead different lives. (though they were likely BOTH Blitzers, as Shuyin ALSO uses a ball in his overdrive)

The theory, whether using mine or Squall's, involves the idea of Shuyin forming the physical template for Tidus. This template would not only carry over into appearance, but physical facility (the Overdrives and fighting ability, in other words) as well.

However, what you suggest involves the Fayth dictating Tidus' very personality. First, this goes beyond the capacity of the Fayth, since while the memories of the Fayth are involved in manifesting the Aeon, it is the Summoner that dictates the reality of this manifestation. Even if one grants the Fayth such capacity, or simply shifts the focus of substantiation to Yu Yevon (which, in this case, would only add further complications), we have to realize that Tidus' personality is a function of his "inner self." His soul, as demonstrated, is his own, and it is beyond the capability of the Fayth to shape his emotions. This would, if nothing else, interfere with the reality of the Summoning.

For that matter, you require the assumption that Dream Shuyin bears the same emotional makeup as Tidus (for the purposes of our discussion, it's ironically irrelevant as to the personality of the real Shuyin). Now, ignoring the fact that Dream Shuyin's very existence is technically hypothetical (as it can logically be assumed, and all theories at work in this thread do assume it), we are forced to give traits to a being that makes no in-game appearance.




I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.

Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.

Not really. Resetting would be impossible because of the guy mentioning something about ten years ago. The proof doesn't say anything about how when person A dies in Dream Zanarkand, the Fayth dream it so that person A, who is an integral part of their cherished memory, is born somewhere entirely else. He'd be somewhat different of course, but still recognizable enough for a satisfying dream. If Tidus is nothing like Shuyin, and all people are nothing like the original Zanarkanders, except in looks, what's the point of trying to preserve the memory?

I thought that might have been what you were trying to suggest, as opposed to the temporal loop, but the game itself shows us that chance can upset the balance of Dream Zanarkand. While Sin's impact on Jecht was probably the first instance where Sin directly affected the Dream, we must take note of the fact that Dream Zanarkand was not altered to reflect this impact by the Fayth. Rather, Jecht's disappearance became a popular topic among the citizenry (recall Zanar's bit at the beginning of the game). The point here is that its not necessary to preserve the Dream in the form of the initial Memory.

Where I disagree with you (and I should have said this earlier) is your assumption that Dream Zanarkand is supposed to be preserved in initial form. As the city can change (and would have changed, even before Sin's direct impact), we can logically assume that the only thing, ultimately, of significance is its continued substantiation. Yu Yevon would have long ago lost control to the Summoning, so only the continued Summoning itself is really of importance. In this case, it doesn't matter as to emotional replay; physical templates are simply reused as there is no alternative.



[...]Also, note that the current Dream Zanarkand is not an exact replica of the destroyed Spiran Zanarkand. Yevon Dome has been replaced by the Blitzball Arena (so it seems to me). Further, note that Tidus has no understanding of Summoning when he first meets Yuna. Summoning seems to have been Zanarkand's primary tactic in the Machina War, which suggests some sort of disconnect between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand.

There IS a dicsonnect. I would keep in mind

v

Summoners would remind the Fayth of the war, and besides remind the Dream Zanarkand is a dream, and for plot reasons would be a hindrance as well. Heck, just loo at OUR cities. Would you recognize Rome (to take an old city) from a thousand years ago? Or from a thousand year in the future? Even if you lived there? There IS a disconnect, but it's there because the Fayth wanted it to be. If Dream Zanarkand was just started off and then given free reign, it'd have changed a whole lot more than lacking Summonners. (Also, the Yevon Dome, wouldn't Yevon have constructed that AFTER the whole mess? And even if he did before, consideirng what he's done, the Fayth would probably not want to remember HIM either)

The point is that there is a clear disconnect from Zanarkand as it was construed in reality. If Yu Yevon/the Fayth were willing to dispense with a major pillar of the civilization's very culture, then there would have been little reason to stick to emotional makeups. For that matter, if the arbiter(s) (be it Yu Yevon or the Fayth) of the Summoning were willing to make changes to the true Memory, and allow it to evolve at all, there would have been no reason to reuse emotional templates.




Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.

Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.

A question of how much Flux it was in, and how far it was allowed to stray. The Sphere we see in FFX-2 shows a REAL Zanarkand that looks just like Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand that is a thousand year older.

There's no question that the very nature of Summoning places some restrictions on the development of Dream Zanarkand. However, there's also no question that the Dream is capable of change, and for that reason it's inaccurate to say that it is synonymous with "the past."




But Tidus and Shuying are so different!

Are they?

Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that.

It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.

If you're gonna make it so that later 'Dream-citizens' LOOK and FIGHT like actual 'historic citizens' than it would seem very off to me that you go 'Oh, but their personality has NO link at all' Tidus is not built on Shuyin, but I would say he was built on the MEMORIES of Shuyin, and then inserted in Zanarkand.

If you accept my theory, Dream Zanarkand residents are actually recycled from physical recollection inherent to pyreflies. If you accept Squall's (which I actually prefer), the limitations of the Fayth necessitate the reuse of physical templates. In either case, we see logical reasons why citizenry might "look and fight" like original citizens, without the need to resort to the reuse of personality.





They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.

I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)

So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.

As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.

Oh no, not saying any of that. And as I said, the SOUL of Shuyin has NO link at all to Tidus. But the MEMORY of Shuyin, as dreamt by the Fayth, does. And I would say, in more than just 'looks and swordfight stuff'

If there is no link between the souls (which requires uniqueness), then we must accept the autonomy of the soul, which would invalidate your suggestion. "Looks and swordfight stuff" actually makes more sense, simply because it could be reused without the complications we're seeing here.

[Yliette]

I read in one site that Tidus is the dreamt version of Shuyin.

[Masamune·1600]

I read in one site that Tidus is the dreamt version of Shuyin.

This is a common, though incorrect, theory. While it's probable that there was an individual based on Shuyin (appropriately referred to as "Dream Shuyin" throughout the thread), one has to remember that the Dream began ~1000 years ago, and that Tidus is only 17 during the events of FFX. Thus, Tidus is far, far removed from Dream Shuyin.

[KH-Cloudy]

OMG TOO MUCH READING *DIES*

[Light Mage]

Maybe it was just the fashion for Blitball players in Zanarkand to have short blonde spikey hair.

[Flare_Cross]

maybee Shuyin is in fact the person that lived in the real zanarkand.... the Zanarkand at the begining of FFX is a dream so maybee the ones who "dreamed" Zanarkand started with similar elements.






Or we can get into a... let's call that a.... a FUTURo-ESTHARionic conclusion and say.... that Tidus was the one send to the Spira world so that when they save the world from sin, the "dreamers" knew shuyin would come so they make him look similar to Tidus so that Yuna can save the world by pursueng him....

To add to your wordbank : Futuro-Estharionic

[Celestial Chimera]

It is truly remarkable for I too thought a similar aspect to your analysis. Despite my confusions concerning in thinking Tidus in actuality traveling 1000 years to the time of future. Yet when I knew of him later as a dream I knew him as a illusive apparition of Shuyin who is an actual individual of another time. Though Tidus is more real, denouncing his nature as a dream, I knew that his character possessed more as his behaviorisms and actions are realistic and even after the revealation of him as a dream, his determination did not fade. So I believe you when you say that Tidus is a "template" of Shuyin. Could it be the reason to why Shuyin was chosen for the modeling of Tidus for such a similarity? Tidus possessed determination to protect Spira whilst Shuyin felt the idea of its destruction more suitable. I believe it is for their determinations their likeness in both countenance and persona exists. As for the Lenne and Yuna theory of both being connected to the other as a possibility of reincarnation I might not be entirely agreeing there. Yuna is connected through Lenne by the "Songtress" dresssphere, as many have noticed that Rikku and Paine "Songtress" spheres are different in comparison to Yuna's. Though it is in the interest of the developers for uniqueness it allows me to insert my ideology of the circumstances - both Yuna and Lenne ache for a love lost: one aches as she knows her lover is misguided by fury whilst the other aches as she feels it that her lover is unfairly stripped out of her's and his own existence. X-2 shows this attribute in the song "1000 words" as Lenne asserts a materialization with Yuna and their feelings are in symbiosis with each other's characters. Both express their clandestine emotions which in many directions is forcibly hidden. So, I may not agree with the point of either characters being reincarnations of each others even with there likenesses. Their feelings may be similar thus they are connected.

Masamune, I truly appreciate your analysis and your efforts in portraying a very effeciently developed thesis in which the relation of Shuyin and Tidus exist. It is truly awesome in its prospects and structure:D