Time Compression... Explanation that fits everything

[ThePheonix]

Simple straight-forward time fits almost all of the occurrences in ff8, however, one contradiction exists; time compression is not experienced in previous parts of the game.

I have three explanations that are actually 3 parts of the same explanation:

.1.

- We are supposed to be playing the actual events that happen, not the timeline that has been distorted during time compression.

It would be a short game if it started and then you see the ending Cinematic… The End!

.2.

- As I posted in another thread…


Let me explain with a diagram:
The way that time compression could have happened and not felt (experienced) before events on disk 4...

-let E0 represent events before the time Ultimicia traveled (With Ellone's help)

-let the events of disk 1, 2, 3, and the start of 4 (just before TC) be represented by E1, E2, E3, and E4 respectively.

-let Ea represent the moment in disk 4 when time compression 'starts'

-let Ex represent Ultimicia's time

so normally:

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea..........Ex

when time compression begins: (i.e. when Ultimicia casts TC)

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea......... Ex
E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea....... . Ex
E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea..... . . Ex
So Ultimicia stretches the time towards her and then onto her time.
so eventually

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea Ex
such that a connection is created between her time and that of Ea

During this moment, Squall and party are pulled through the link and defeat Ultimicia, and as it all happens in the time of moment Ea, time preceding that moment does not experience TC.

Now the reason why the Squall & party from say...2 days ahead in time of Ea did not go ahead and defeat Ultimicia I cannot clearly explain, unless the section of time being compressed actually begins with Ea and ends after E0 (the time Ultimicia traveled to) and that time is warped onto her own time, leaving everything else intact...
something like this:

..........
E0 .....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea --> Ex



.3.

- 2 Dimensions of time, and 1-dimentional Time Compression:

-the simplest way to represent 2D time is as follows.

{-} represents an event in time. (Note: events that are directly above one another are the same events in time)

{*} represents a {-} of the actual storyline of events that actually happened to cause the present.

-------------------* (present)
------------------*
-----------------*
----------------*
---------------*
--------------*
-------------*
------------*
-----------*
----------*
---------*
--------*
-------*
------*
-----*
----*
---*
--*
-*
* (past)

So at some time in the past there would be a time of events:

*

Then

-*
*

Then

--*
-*
*

etc.
-Such that every event in the first column is the same event, and the storyline represented by the events {*} are the original events that occurred to bring the future.

-the other sets of events are more like the memories of the events and are usually congruent to the {*} actual events leading up to the present.

-Ellone’s time powers work only in one dimension of time, not two, and therefore cannot change actual past events, only some details that will, however, lead to the same present. (this kind of time magic is’ horizontal’ (when using the previously mentioned visualisation of 2-D time) time magic)

-When Ellone sends Squall into Rinoa’s body that’s in space, she is using ‘vertical’ (also 1-D) time magic (in regard to the same 2-D time model/visualisation). Here she is shaping the present, not altering the past.

-Whether or not Time Compression is a 1-D or 2-D magic is irrelevant, since it is being used and restricted by Ellone’s 1-D time powers.

à When Time Compression is used, it occurs only in 1 Dimension of time, and is the Horizontal type of time magic, and therefore does not change the actual events, and cannot change the occurrences in the storyline of the game before it began at all. Because of this, Time Compression is not experienced earlier in the game. As well, time compression in that one horizontal occurs as theory 2 explains.

-This is a Physics view on Time Compression, and is basically an explanation of # 1

[Sir Bahamut]

Hm, I could say a whole many things to your three suggestions, but I think I'll restrict myself, and rather direct you to the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

Read the section on Time there. It should clarify a lot. However, a few things I will say:

A time compression spell which literally pulls and drags on time itself does not work in a time where the past cannot be changed(Ellone: "You can't change the past...") because once time de-compresses and everything is back to normal, there would be no way to tell that TC had ever happened. To be more precise about this point, the events in which Squall and Co utilise TC(and all that happens as a result of this, ie. killing Ultimecia) would only last for as long as TC lasts, which makes no sense at all!

Also, if the spell is cast far in the past, there is no real logical reason as to why it is Ultimecias era which acts as some centerpoint for TC. Your 2-D time is also making things more complicated than they need be, although I agree that all of time should be viewed more like a sheet of paper than a line.

But these are only tiny snippets. Please read the FAQ mentioned for a take on time and TC formed from 2 years of debates.

[ThePheonix]

OK, I'll read it when I have the time... maybe tommorow, or the day after that, I only had a very quick overview so far (it's long).

[ThePheonix]

I haven't read all of it yet, but it seems to only consider one horizontal of time (as by the theory proposed in this thread).

And the reason Ellone can't change the past is because she can't alter the present from the past, however, she was able to change a small detail - laguna says that they thought fairies were floating over them to make them stronger, or something of the sort, as a direct effect of Ellone's interference.

[Sir Bahamut]

I haven't read all of it yet, but it seems to only consider one horizontal of time (as by the theory proposed in this thread).

That's the starting point yes, but if you read on, you will find that this line of time is modified to a sheet of personal lines of time instead. Your 2-D time is possible, I'm sure, but it's much more complicated, and thus less desirable.


And the reason Ellone can't change the past is because she can't alter the present from the past, however, she was able to change a small detail - laguna says that they thought fairies were floating over them to make them stronger, or something of the sort, as a direct effect of Ellone's interference.

The reason she can't change the past is because time is set in stone. At least, that's it as far as I'm concerned. In other words, she couldn't change the past, because things always happened like that. This explains your point of the fairies; those fairies were always there, because all of time exist all at once.

Just read it all through, and then direct any questions here.

[Skyblade]

Ooh, goody! Not often I get to involve logic in arguements like these. Ellone can't change the past. Why not? Because the past leads to the present. If she changed the past so that Laguna was there with Raine when she died, she wouldn't have a reason to go back into the past. With no reason to go to the past, Laguna leaves Raine, cycle starts over. The past can't be changed without removing that which changed it. Ergo, no change. Simple as that.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, it's not as perfectly straight forward as that. SquallOfSeeD(whon you may know from this forum) wrote a section in the mentioned FAQ which provides a framework for a theory in which the past could be changed.

[crazybayman]

OMG U GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY LIKE WATCH BACK TO THE FUTURE LOL.

Edit: sorry....I just had to :p

[ThePheonix]

As I said, Ellone can't change the past in the present to any degree that her present will be segnificantly changed. It is not the past but the present that is set in stone; amounting to nearly the same thing, with minor diferences.

... I'll get back to reading the rest of the FAQ now...

We should be expecting Future Esthar to come and somehow warp any logic of this discussion; prepare to argue for some part of time being set in stone, or something of the sort...

[Sir Bahamut]

Significantly changed? So you think that the past can be changed, but not in a way which changes the present? In other words, you believe that small changes are possible? I disagree. I see no reason to think that the past cannot be changed, except if it's just a tiny bit. Don't see the logic in that at all. Also, I believe Chaos theory applies here; a butterfly batting their wings can cause hurricanes on the other side of the earth(or time, in this case).

Anyway, I rather believe that distinction between past, present, and future are merely in our heads. But yeah, just read on.

[ThePheonix]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

[Skyblade]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

Is anyone else really sick of the umbrella excuse "it's just a game"?

[Sir Bahamut]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

I realise this. That is why I made special note in the beginning to make it clear that none of the theories posted within were rooted in physics from the real world. Everything in there is based on a combination of what the game tells us in conjunction with logic and common sense. Funnily enough, certainly conclusions reached are similar to the real world(ie. time is relative for instance), but these are similarities reached from wildly different backgrounds.

Now, the use of something like Chaos theory might then seem to make me a bit of a hypocrite, but I merely think that in essence, Chaos theory is nothing but pure logic. Particles interact. Great changes are caused by particles interacting. One single particle may thus easily be the key particle in causing huge change, even if it's just a single particle. It's like the drop which tips the cup, you know?


Is anyone else really sick of the umbrella excuse "it's just a game"?

Well, I believe the phrase should be kept in mind to the extent that FF8 theories should not initially be based on real world physics. But that's all.

[Skyblade]

But using it as an excuse for all the little inconsistancies/unexplored points is so boring!

Where did Squall's wound go?
"It's just a game"

Where did the idea of SeeD come from?
"It's just a game"

Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?
"It's just a game"

Why do people just sit there and take turns letting their opponents beat the crud out of them?
"It's just a game"

It's annoying as hell! (Even when it is valid, such as the last one...)

[Christmas]

But using it as an excuse for all the little inconsistancies/unexplored points is so boring!

Where did Squall's wound go?
"It's just a game"

Where did the idea of SeeD come from?
"It's just a game"

Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?
"It's just a game"

Why do people just sit there and take turns letting their opponents beat the crud out of them?
"It's just a game"

It's annoying as hell! (Even when it is valid, such as the last one...)

Some of the questions you raised out are still open to discussion and yet to have a conclusion yet but using the reason " it is a game" did/or support ideas which explain some of the inconsistancies of the game.

For example:Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?

Because....(pls read the thread yourself...) also to add on that it might be a programming convenience since it is just a game.

It can be used as a point to support your explaination to the inconsistancies.

Some may not really be convincing like Where do the idea of SeeD came from? And the answer is "it is just a game"?

I dun really think it is an excuse or anything but a reminder/point to note when thing get a bit far fetched like :

Where do Squall wound go?

They probably heal him with "Cure" magic(just a deduction but the outcome is Squall is healed or never wounded)
But that is no such thing as "Cure" or magic in this world!!

[Sir Bahamut]

But using it as an excuse for all the little inconsistancies/unexplored points is so boring!

I agree. As I said, we should be seeking explanations that do not rest on the fact that it is a game, BUT, I do not think we should be basing theories such as the nature of time on real world physics. This would be a fallacy, because the writers could very well(actually, almost certainly) have based their game on their own views, and their own idea, instead of stuff like quantum mechanics and general relativity. After all, most physicists believe travelling to the past is impossible anyway, but we can certainly not take this into consideration when discussing FF8, because time travel DOES happen.

Of the examples you brought up, I only think the second one is silly. The others I think are in reality correct(at least to a certain degree, like the one about the Esthar barrier), in the sense that they are a result of the FF8 world not being the same world as ours(for instance, Squalls wound could be healed completely by magic, which is possible because it's a game).

However, I do agree that the answers should in almost all cases be expanded on beyond the phrase "It's just a game". Exceptions would be things like the last point you mentioned, which has no other explanation.

[ThePheonix]

I never actually got the time to read more that a couple of pages of the FAQ, but I think it would make more sence if the timeline was aclually infinite, and the only fixed point in time is the "Present" as in, the point in time that a person is who is sending th people back in time. The past cannot be changed to alter the present, that is why Ellone could not change the past. This can also be 1 or 2 dimentional time.

School is starting, so I can't go on very often, and will not play any game until the end of the school year (this is the one that counts the most). But after, I will play FF VIII through again with special focus on this, I'm also planning on getting FFXI then, too.

[Fire_Emblem776]

where is squall of seed when you need em

[Sir Bahamut]

I never actually got the time to read more that a couple of pages of the FAQ, but I think it would make more sence if the timeline was aclually infinite, and the only fixed point in time is the "Present" as in, the point in time that a person is who is sending th people back in time. The past cannot be changed to alter the present, that is why Ellone could not change the past. This can also be 1 or 2 dimentional time.

1) If the timeline was infinite, time compression would not be possible, because it acts at a finite speed.

2) Not sure what you mean by "fixed point". Surely, the past exists in FF8 no matter how you look at it(or else timetravelliong would not be possible). If you mean that there is only ONE "real" present, and that is the time at the very tip of the line of time(an evolving line of time naturally) then sure, that is a valid belief(although not one I find very compelling, as I explain in the FAQ).

3) Still don't know why 2 Dimensional time is used as an option. It is not necessary to use 2-D time to explain the events in the game, so it really just complicates things more than necessary.


where is squall of seed when you need em

I don't mean to sound angry here(although I'm kind of annoyed), but why can you not judge what I am saying, instead of waiting for SquallOfSeeD to come and 'set things straight'? He is not the only one capable of making sense of FF8(no offense, SoS).

For that matter, if you had even bothered to check out my FAQ, you would have noticed that SquallOfSeeD is a co-author of the FAQ! His contributions are mainly in the R=U section, but all he would add to this is that he'd tell you to read the FAQ.

Again, sorry for jumping at you here, but it's really annoying when you're not even considered because you're not as 'prominent a poster' as SoS.....

[Future Esthar]

QUOTE.Again, sorry for jumping at you here, but it's really annoying when you're not even considered because you're not as 'prominent a poster' as SoS.....QUOTE.

Agreed.

[Squall of SeeD]

Yeah, I appreciate the vote of confidence and all, fireemblem, but Sir Bahamut there is easily as much of an expert on this game as I am. It's by first having debated against one another and then later trying to figure out things together that our knowledge of the game has been so enhanced. For that matter, as far as matters of discussing time goes, I'd suggest turning out an ear toward him before anyone else, even me.

While we both have solid conceptions of time, we've never managed to agree on it. He believes that the past is fixed and unmallable, while I've always believed that it can be changed and Ellone's statement that it couldn't stemmed from the fact that her attempts to change the past were only reinforcing it. From the standpoint of discussing this game, my view would probably be considered the more unorthodox of the two. While I recognize that when viewing time as a line, Ultimecia would always appear in the past long before she was ever born, I don't accept that things were always this way.

That said, however, I've tried to look at things his way and he's tried to look at them mine, and we've argued for and against one another's views over the last couple of years. We have a mutual respect born of recognizing an equal in the other (and if I may say so, when we debated against each other, he provided me with the best debate I've ever had the honour to partake of, even if it ended with a draw). My point here is that I consider him to be the premiere individual on the subject of time in Final Fantasy VIII... even if I don't agree with him about it.

This is all a really long-winded way of me saying this: "Just read the FAQ Bahamut linked to."

[Sir Bahamut]

Thank you, SquallOfSeeD, for your kind words. I can't say I don't feel the same way. Heck, if it weren't for you, I would still be arguing in favour of R=U, which I now can't imagine anymore. You have been one of the main contributors in several of the best debates I've had too, even if they ended in a draw, as you said(even if it ended in me having to give up, too!).

But yeah, all praise put aside, read the FAQ.

[Mercen-X]

where is squall of seed when you need em

I don't mean to sound angry here(although I'm kind of annoyed), but why can you not judge what I am saying, instead of waiting for SquallOfSeeD to come and 'set things straight'?

Again, sorry for jumping at you here, but it's really annoying when you're not even considered because you're not as 'prominent a poster' as SoS.....
OMG~! Fireemblem77what's it posted once with one line that was probably sarcasm and you feel insulted? Like the opinion of some spammer actually matters to you anyway?
It seems Sir B needs a major confidence booost . .. ♪ Let's go, Sir B, Let's go! Let's go, Sir B, Let's go! ♪

[BackRoomKid]

^^^*aggrees*

finally a lil' more info on time comprehension

big ups to ThePhoenix though

[Sir Bahamut]

Mercen X: Haha, thanks, but it's not nearly that bad. I have confidence in my own (limited) knowledge of FF8, and the small post of a single user I don't know doesn't exactly stab me in the heart either.

But after all, if you had spent ages debating and discussing, and writing down an FAQ based on several years of discussions, just to be ignored simply because you don't have the right username, it gets a bit annoying no matter what(if it was sarcasm, I missed it completely...).

But yeah, it's not a big deal or anything. I just got a bit annoyed, that's all.