Thingfish's Riddle

[Necronopticous]

The old thread (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=49010) was getting incredibly long, so here is a fresh one.

The current riddle going on is from thingfish and reads:

---

Paragon of a mute usurper, I.
To Occident and Orient adjunct.
Mine avocation, dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct.

O, keen watchman to mine own, falter not,
To vouchsafe designs most astronomic.
Misplaced pursuit doth leave much truth forgot,
Affinity only one may mimic.

In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum.
Contrary to self, mine heir apparent,
Abide, thou dost, foremost, and in tandem.

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.
Yet displace determiner from this source,
A riotous assembly remembered.

Twixt conscience caught and more relative grounds,
All tears and woe be in our presence past.
At helm of craft, portentous death knell sounds.
Recurrent pause, wilt thou begun at last?

Is't a 'What'? Tis that thou thinkest of me?
Is't a 'Who'? Thrice shalt thou deceived be...

EDIT: Okay, since this is its own thread now, take as long as you like.

EDIT BY BoB: Please see the post made by Lenna a few posts down from here BEFORE ANSWERING. Please also do your best to back up your guesses with detail as to what made you come up with the answer.

[Thingfish]

Erm...thanks, I think, Necro :) I'll at least put in a link to the previous thread so people can look at the musings on my riddle up to this point : http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49010 (from page 19 onwards).

[Mercen-X]

:grumble::nonono::shoot::twak::trout::smash:

Adding to the rules for this particular riddle. The answer is VERY OBSCURE. You will not know the name of the answer if you can think of it on the spot. DO NOT POST UNWARRANTED GUESSES THAT WASTE TIME AND SPACE. THANK YOU.

[Lenna]

Adding to what Mercen-X said.

The answer is obscure yes, but the person you are looking for has a FULL name yes, first and second name.

Although, when you meet this person you will not find out the name of them from that person themselves. You will need to search for their "watchman" who Thingfish stated in the previous thread as the person who tells you their full name.

The answer is someone who does not have many lines in the game, it has been stated as possibly 1 or 2 lines. You will have to travel to find this person.

And last but not least, the person we are looking for is alive, in flesh and blood. As some people have asked "is this person dead with a saying left behind etc". No, this person is someone you do meet in person in the game. Although it's "heir" has been pointed out (if I remember correctly) as a memento or item (possibly a statue or a diary). I'm not quite sure.

Those are the main clues to the Riddle, if I have missed any out please feel free to add :)

For Newbies to this thread: Please read the thread before if you wish to see if one of your answers has already been said.

If you think you are dead certain you know the answer just by reading the riddle, please do not post it unless you have checked the previous posts as we have had some newbies constantly coming out with the same answers such as Necron, Ozma etc. These may be characters that aren't recognisable first off but they are not as obscure as the character we are looking for. Random guessing has already been put aside as there has been too much of it. We are now all just trying to figure out the riddle bit by bit, trying to understand each part so we can get this riddle solved.

Good luck with the riddle everyone <3

[Karl]

hilda? cid's wife?

[Llanowar]

CAN U PPL NOT READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It says this is an Obscure person in the game....Hilda isnt even close to obscure. I mean honestly ppl lets give thingfish SOME credit here its not quite THAT easy.

[Mercen-X]

Okay Llan, have a cool-pops, fresh from the freezer. Karl is obviously mentally challenged. Cut him a bit of slack.





. . . Is it Vivi?

[Thingfish]

Thanks to LoonyBob for making this into my own topic! :D

I've no doubt someone can post a large synopsis of what they have analysed correctly for this riddle, and maybe the wrong answers list they had been keeping :)

As I've mentioned before, I'll not bother responding to obvious random guesses that give no reason why they are linked to the riddle at all. If you give good reasoning, then I'll obviously respond, though.

[brother's bigger brother]

garland

[Lenna]

EDIT BY BoB: Please see the post made by Lenna a few posts down from here BEFORE ANSWERING. Please also do your best to back up your guesses with detail as to what made you come up with the answer.

Edit: Before BoB rudely took over the keyboard while I was typing. There is a LONG list of wrong answers, I'll do that now BUT, PLEASE PLEASE do not guess anyone that has A NAME. I have already stated that this person does have a full name, forename and surname. So use common sense to realise that "Garland",
"Hilda" or anyone with ONE name is not going to be the answer.

Also remember that the person we are looking for, DOES NOT HAVE THEIR ORIGINAL NAME WHEN WE MEET THEM!.


Originally Posted by Destai:
Terra, Memoria & Amarant

Originally Posted by Boris no no:
Summoners.... Eiko, Garnet & wall of faces in Terra

Originally Posted by Ultimate99997:
Choco.

Originally Posted by Llanowar:
Garland, Mayor of Dali, Puck, Alexandrian Soldier Britany & Necron, Alice

Originally Posted by abrojtm:
Queen Brahne, Ragtime Mouse, Garnets voice, Taharka, Black Waltz No 1, Silver Dragon, Erin, Ipsen, Twins Shannon and Sharon, Pluto Knights, Hal, Frederick Ash, Donnegan, Claire, Taurus, Stellazzio, Neptune, IIFA Tree, Mist & Avon

Originally Posted by Lenna:
The Synthesiser in Lindblum, Nymph, Masked Man, Morrid, Alexander / Eidolon, Bunce and Lucella, Gon Card Freak & Ozma

Originally Posted by nik0tine:
'Transition Zone' between Gaia and Terra, blind burmecian soldier & Lich

Originally Posted by My name is... something..?:
The Genomes that go to BMV in Disc 4

Originally Posted by masamune1600:
King Leo, Cornelia, Prince Shnneider, Mikoto & Marilith

Originally Posted by TurkSlayer:
Gizmaluke

Originally Posted by SilverPhoenix42:
Garnet's father

Originally Posted by Maya:
Sir Fratley, Real Garnet, Red Mage, The great mother tree, Hades & Garnet´s real mother

Originally Posted by PhoenixAsh:
Moogle & Vivi's grandad.

Originally Posted by Mercen-X:
Chocobo Island.

Originally Posted by oww my gastric bypass!:
Marcus

Originally Posted by Old Manus:
Eggmiester & Dragoos

Originally Posted by Hroth:
Pandemonium, Baku, Beatrix & Steiner

Originally Posted by Takara:
Hilda & Tantarian

Originally Posted by Zidane x Auron:
Moguo & Mene

Originally Posted by rcabronx:
Qu, Lowell Bridges & Synthesist's son

Originally Posted by .:the chocobo master:.:
Stilzkin

Originally Posted by Weimar Pluto Knight VII:
NPC in Alexandria, Dante the signmaker,
black mage that you talk to on the forgotten continent,
Ashley, Father from Treno who talks to his son about card games, Mary, Gatz, Gogo in Daguerro

Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan:
Monty, Alleyway Jack, or Gilgamesh

Originally Posted by Medigodoom:
David Heavenguard, Fat Chocobo

Originally Posted by Aidan:
Invincible

Originally Posted by G SpOtZ:
quale



Thingfish Hints


Bold text: If only I had a place to call home.
Italic text: Gysahl Greens

"Is't a 'What'? Tis that thou thinkest of me?
Is't a 'Who'? Thrice shalt thou deceived be..."
What is this asking for?

Only slightly related to chocobos, but not the Black Mage Village.

The section on being deceived is not actually a major clue to solving the riddle, so you need not concentrate on it so much.

it's neither, nor is it to do with Chocobo Paradise, Mognet Central, or the Black mages themselves rather than the black mage village

it's already been established the answer is a 'who', not a 'what'.

I had originally said that the answer has a couple of lines in the game, so it's not simply restricted to only one line.

The 'in tandem' section does have to do with the number two!

The usurping is a little more figurative that literal in this riddle though...

There is indeed a reference to a type of tree in this riddle, but it is not to do with the 'rubicund umbrage' line, nor has it anything to do with the Iifa Tree...

"Watchman to mine own" refers to the one person who speak's 'my' (the answer's) full name (mine own).

The 'interregnum' line is both figurative and literal at the same time, but is not to do with the authority transferred to Dagger.

the meaning of 'abide' here is 'exist'

there is no reference to any other FF game in this.

The reference to a tree is very convoluted so you'd need to work out a few other things before getting to that

'Rubicund umbrage' can stand for red shadow, and that idea is indeed involved here.

if you unravel the two lines :

"Mine avocation, dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct."

into more modern structure, you would have something like :

"My avocation, which is to pacify dearth, is caused to be nigh-on defunct by rubicund umbrage."

Because this riddle is written in iambic pentameter, it is often necessary to drop words such as 'is', 'are', 'the' etc to fit in with the decasyllabic structure.

You must all remember some things in the riddle are only tenuously linked in order to misdirect you, so, no, Black Waltzes and Morrid are incorrect, and I've added before that the phrase "If only I had a place to call home" is said by Zidane to Garland, so that line is not related to the music in this riddle, although it's an interesting notion which I'd not thought of.

This is more to do with an heir inheriting something intangible...

The heir is metaphysical in the sense that it is immaterial, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural sense of that word.

I would consider him a person, and moogle and black mages too. Character is maybe a better word that person, and that can therefore mean both playable and non-playable characters, but would disclude monsters, places and ships etc.

"By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct" means "nigh-on defunct caused by rubicund umbrage".

"Mine" means "My" in this type of Olde English, and only comes before a vowel. If the next word were to begin with a consonant, one would use "My".

"Heaven's flute" is the one being scourged .

Heaven's Flute is indeed in reference not to the character itself but to something else, however, not to Madain Sari, Alexander or Cleyra. The character is indeed seen in different places in the game. Zidane's line about wanting a place to call home does not directly pertain to the answer having the same longing.


The word "usurper" is being used to describe someone taking the place of something wrongfully or illegally, right?


'illegally' is too strong in this context. It is more that the answer has been caused to take over something from another person, wrongfully taking credit for something/taking up position in a domain which is actually that of another...


The riddle can be analysed on many levels, one being superficial where you will indeed only find the interpretation things like dictionary.com and thesaurus.com can give when you look for direct meanings of terms, but there is also one that has intensely to do with classic literature, history, media, wordplay and so on, whilst at the same time linking events in the game to things in the history of the real world. Everything pertains simultaneously to the game and the real world

You would indeed need to search to find this character, and you could see them speak, although that would likely not help you in solving the riddle, as you still might not know it is that person doing the talking.

You are right about me able to make riddle point at things around the character, but the majority of the riddle points directly at this character, albeit under a very cryptic guise. The riddle itself even tells you the exact name of the answer!

Rubicund umbrage does not refer to fire and is not exactly a metaphor either.

In verse 2, the first two lines are connected to third one, but not the last one, so the last one is not a continuation.

Being 'adjunct' to the east and west need not necessarily mean travelling there, but it could

The answer is a single person, not a family, an animal or anything like that.

As for 'in anterior regard', it does not mean 'in retrospect', and that line can (and must) indeed be interpreted in the basic way you suggest, Sir. B, but it also, as you surmise, has deeper meaning. The idea of 'not there' comes into play as well, and you can indeed incorporate the third and fourth lines of this verse into this idea as well, as it is the heir to the answer that abides and is the answer's 'presence', contrary to it being the answer itself.

'heir' here is not necessarily a successor, more a thing present in the stead of the explicit answer

there is a much deeper meaning behind the lines.

The 'heir' does not have any lines in the game, and is inanimate. The answer is indeed alive, however

It is not the answer and the heir that are in tandem, but rather part of the heir. Being foremost and in tandem is indeed concerned with the location of the heir, but not in relation to the answer.

Tandem is naturally to do with certain things being positioned next to one another, but not the act of positioning. The heir is not doing more than one job at once, and is not a machine.

Contrary here would refer more to being 'unlike' (i.e. in a different state to) the answer, e.g. "unlike the answer, the heir abides..." Indeed, the answer is not easily noticed, as you might have guessed from the length of guessing on this riddle. The heir is fairly easily noticed, however, but not easily recognised as being connected to the answer.

The part 'O, keen watchman...' etc is more a plea to do that which you said, but yes, you are correct in those ideas about it. It is not the watchman who can get sidetracked or miss out on much truth, but rather the gameplayer. This is a warning to the player Not sure what you mean by 'the shrouded line', though.

The last line of the third verse is not directed at the gameplayer.

The answer does indeed appear in more than one place but I don't believe it appears on all discs. The answer is an NPC who is named. I said it has a couple of lines. However, its lines are only on one disc, you cannot speak to it later on, even though it does appear.

there is something special about this character

the answer's real name is mentioned once in the game

Vulgar does indeed refer to the common masses in a way, but this line, and the following one, both are really an enigma hidden inside a riddle inside a mystery

'Vengeful death' does not have to do with the 'defunct' section, nor does the scourging and slaughtering.

Indeed, heaven's flute does not refer to a flute. It is more of a metaphor for something else in the game. I hadn't thought about this line referring to an in-game background tune, but I suppose it could Well thought of! Hehe.

The section about the determiner is not about someone in charge, a leader, but rather in the grammatical sense of the term. The riotous assembly does not refer to people.

One real world reference does indeed find itself in this verse. The others appear in the 1st and 5th verses, and the one regarding modern media is in another verse.


Thingfish: Does the last line tell us anything about how to crack the puzzle? Presumably it must have something to do with it, and it doesn't seem to have any obvious translation, unless the one I suggested a few days ago was in fact correct.

The last line of that verse, you mean? Well, yes, it does.


Well, the first two lines do mean something in a superficial sense, but naturally only things the 'vulgar' (riddlers who do not go deeply into the meanings of the riddle) would come up with. The other two lines refer to the first two lines and the way to go about working out the puzzle.

The portentous death knell sounds wasn't meant to refer at all to the 'nigh-on defunct' line, but I suppose it could.

At least not recognisable by their real, full name, but they are recognisable by the other name you see them as. It is, however, the real, full name I require as an answer. Getting the name they are shown to go by won't be enough, but it would give you a good idea about where to look.

the craft can be construed at the 'heir'.

The use of 'begun' is indeed the Olde English and should be construed as 'will you be begun', or, in modern parlance, 'will you have begun'.

I don't believe I've mentioned whether the name by which they can be seen has both or merely one...

It's already established that some other character says the answer's real name. It is not on an item or sign etc

The answer does indeed have a proper forename and surname and not a nickname, but gameplayers will most likely not know them, so would refer to the character, if they noticed it, as something else. The character is also referred to by this other name in the game, but the answer we are looking for is their full real name

I'll not bother answering random guesses from now on. *smiles sweetly at Thingfish :P*



Puzzle.

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.

Look at the two lines more closely, and after you've worked how the puzzle within them, which is unfortunately very, very difficult, only then remove the 'the'.
the puzzle has to do with the actual letters.
(We have to arrange the letters)

working out the first stage of the puzzle of those two lines won't tell you anything about the name of the answer. That's the hard part about the second stage


In these two lines there is also some sort of puzzle as Thingfish stated. If we can figure out what this puzzle is, we'd have passed one part where it'll make it easier to find out the answer. Although, not as easy as people may think. There is different stages as TF said. Once we have managed to figure out that puzzle, we'll be in the 3rd stage.


For any future guesses, please give us your reasoning as to why you made that choice too!

[Thingfish]

I'm very flattered you would spend so much time to write that out, Lenna, and very proud of you for doing so : )

Just out of interest, my text file of details explaining the answer to the riddle is about 2-3 times as long as that post! :)

[Lenna]

I'm very flattered you would spend so much time to write that out, Lenna, and very proud of you for doing so : )

Just out of interest, my text file of details explaining the answer to the riddle is about 2-3 times as long as that post!

Hehe :P well maybe someday soon we might actually get to see that text file, (after we've answered correctly that is)

And as I've said to many of my friends before, once I get into something I dedicate myself to it. Regardless of how much time it takes me to do things I'll do it. lol I have alot of patience when it comes to what I love, and at the moment this is one thing I'm enjoying and quite happy to spend my time doing. As well as helping everyone in here out. Not many people have actually gone through all the posts to do such a thing before, so if someone hasn't done it before, why sit around and wait for it? I just decided I'd do it because I have the patience to sit and do it so yeah :P

[Thingfish]

Well done, you dedicated thing, you :D :love:

[Lenna]

Thank you :D :D :D :love: *smiles proudly*

[Sir Bahamut]

Nice going Lenna. After dinner, I will find my analysis of the verses so far, and post that, before continuing with the final verse.

By the way Thingfish, if I/we figure out the last verse to the extent of which we understand the preceeding verses, will that form a good enough basis for us to figure out the answer? Or is it crucial that we solve the real world references and any eventual 'deeper meaning's first? Obviously, I'd want to solve as much as possible before finding the answer, and that would obviously make it more easy, I just want to know this anyway...

[Thingfish]

It might be enough, but I seriously doubt it, Sir.B. If you solved the real-world references, then that would aid you greatly. The whole last verse is rather difficult though. Other verses can help you solve it though :)

[Sir Bahamut]

Leaving the hardest for the end, huh?

And I was afraid it wouldn't be enough. Well, solving the real world references will be the next thing to do then. I suppose they will give us the non-vulgar meaning of the parts in question. But for the other lines with deeper meaning not rooted in a real world reference, exactly how hard do you think it will be to crack those?

[Thingfish]

I order of difficulty, starting with the easiest, I would say the verses would appear in the order 1,2,5,3,4. The fourth is certainly the most difficult, as it is the one that divulges the full name of the answer. 3 and 5 are probably equally hard.

1, 3, 4 and 5 have real-world references, verse 3 having the one regarding media, verse 4 regarding nature and verses 1 and 5 regarding history and literature.

Obviously, not the whole of those verses refer to real-world things, but sections of them which don't are just as hard :)

Gwaha!

:D

[Sir Bahamut]

Here's the current analysis of the riddle as we know it:

VERSE 1


Paragon of a mute usurper, I.

Translates to: "I am a mute usurper", where "I" is the answer.

Mute hasn't completely been cracked yet, but it's clearly metaphorical. I believe it basically means that the answer isn't very obvious, or doesn't make him(her?)self known very well. This fits in nicely with the fact that Thingfish believes most people will never have heard of the answer before ever.

Usurper here basically means that the answer takes over something. It could naturally be anything that is taken over though, so that's all we have on this line.


To Occident and Orient adjunct.

The answer carries out his "profession" in the east and the west. This may also simply be saying that he can be found in the east and the west, as Thingfish said he moves around the place.

Note that whatever profession the answer has, if it is a profession in a regular sense, is unknown.


Mine avocation, dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct.

Rearrange this and we realise that this says: "My avocation, which is to pacify dearth, is nigh-on defunct because of 'rubicund umbrage'".

Translate this again and we have something along these lines: My 'job', which is to reduce the shortage of 'something', is 'dying'(in a metaphorical sense of course) due to 'rubicund umbrage'.

Rubicund umbrage literally translated means a 'red shade'. What this refers to is unknown. Tt is not fire, or a red mage at least. Can't remember any other guesses here. This is an unsolved phrase basically.

NOTES:

* This verse contains a reference towards litterature and/or history(is it only one of them or both?).

VERSE 2


O, keen watchman to mine own, falter not,
To vouchsafe designs most astronomic.

The watchman to [the answer] is the person who reveals the answers name. You see, when you speak to the answer, he/she has a title along the lines of "Fisher" or "Soldier" or something mundane like that. However, this 'watchman' reveals his or her real name on only one occassion. It is this real name which is the answer to the riddle.

Now, this watchman also has some designs he is supposed to deliver/put into action. These designs are not the answers. The designs are astronomic both in the metaphoric and literal sense(ie. they are grand but also related to stars and such).


Misplaced pursuit doth leave much truth forgot,

Much to my surprise, this is merely a warning to us riddlers not to take the wrong path. In other words, if we concentrate on the wrong things, we will not find the answer.


Affinity only one may mimic.

This line stands by itself, but what it refers to is unknown.

NOTES:

* This verse has no real world references.


VERSE 3


In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum.

While the heir is quite visible at the forefront of things, the answer is not. Despite not appearing to be in the forefront, the answer is still there in the background, attending interregnum. Interregnum signifies the gap between two periods. What exactly the interregnun lies between is unknown, and could be virtually anything.

Note that this seems to be more of the superfitial(yet valid) interpretation. There is more analysis to be done here.


Contrary to self, mine heir apparent,
Abide, thou dost, foremost, and in tandem.

Unlike the answer, the heir is easily visible(foremost) and is in tandem.
This line probably also has a deeper meaning though. Furhter analysis must be done.

NOTES:

* This verse contains a real world reference to media.

VERSE 4


Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.
Yet displace determiner from this source,
A riotous assembly remembered.

"This source" is here the first two lines. They make out a rioutous assembly of letters which must be re-membered(ie. rearranged) before we can remove the determiner "the".

Basically, the two first lines of this verse contain a very complex puzzle concerning the letters of the lines. Once you have correctly rearranged them, you must remove the word "the". By succesfully doing this, the puzzle will give us the full name of the answer.

However, since the reward is so great, the puzzle is so hard that it is not recommended to focus on it. Besides this puzzle, the verse does not contain any useful information.

VERSE 5

Verse 5 is still being worked on.

[Lenna]

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.
Yet displace determiner from this source,
A riotous assembly remembered.

"This source" is here the first two lines. They make out a rioutous assembly of letters which must be re-membered(ie. rearranged) before we can remove the determiner "the".

Basically, the two first lines of this verse contain a very complex puzzle concerning the letters of the lines. Once you have correctly rearranged them, you must remove the word "the". By succesfully doing this, the puzzle will give us the full name of the answer.



If I remember correctly, Thingfish didn't say that the answer to the riddle was in that puzzle. I believe he merely said that after solving that part of the riddle we'd be in stage 2 where he'd give us a better detail into what we need to do next. I don't think he said that rearranging those letters would actually give us the answer's name.

Regardless of if he said that the answer is in the fourth verse or not.

Yep if you read my post before, you shall see that all the hints/clues I posted were quotes said specifically by Thingfish. Amongst them was this:



Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.

Look at the two lines more closely, and after you've worked how the puzzle within them, which is unfortunately very, very difficult, only then remove the 'the'.
the puzzle has to do with the actual letters.
(We have to arrange the letters)

working out the first stage of the puzzle of those two lines won't tell you anything about the name of the answer. That's the hard part about the second stage

[Mercen-X]

A few questions, Thing. You mentioned that there is a reference to a tree. Is this an actual living tree or like a "family tree", a diagram depicting ancestry?

If it is a real tree of any size, shape, or form, then is the tree the heir as for what I've read of Lenna's report, it has not been mentioned.

Also a detail I haven't found, is the watchman obscure like the answer or is it more easily identifiable?

[Thingfish]

Sir. B. : I said the 4th verse is the hardest, and, indeed, the first stage of the puzzle of its first two lines doesn't tell you the answer. Once you've worked out what the first stage is, then the second stage leads you to an idea that then can be discerned as the name of the answer.

Mercen-X : The tree is not a family tree, rather a real tree. It is not the heir. The watchman is more easily identifiable, but still obscure.

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry, a bit of confusion there. Well, I'm not doing any more tonight, but tomorrow I'll see if I can't figure out what the first line of the last verse refers to, since I believe you said that was the reference in that verse.

Any help is of course appreciated.

[Lenna]

I'd help a little but as I've mentioned before I'm out in Edinburgh and I don't have my game with me to look into. Although Sir. B, I shall make sure to tell TF off *giggle* for making his riddle so hard tomorrow in person! :D

And sorry for pointing out your mistake in your post.. I guess I am a bit of a pest sometimes :P *smiles sweetly*

BTW do both lines of the puzzle need to be rearranged? Or just some specific words? Because I'm confused as to how all the letters could be rearranged. And if both lines do need to be rearranged, do they show a whole sentence? or merely just a few words?

[Thingfish]

BTW do both lines of the puzzle need to be rearranged? Or just some specific words? Because I'm confused as to how all the letters could be rearranged. And if both lines do need to be rearranged, do they show a whole sentence? or merely just a few words?

It certainly is a puzzler, isn't it? :D

[brother's bigger brother]

just tel use the god dam answer

[Sir Bahamut]

Lenna: Not at all, please do correct me. I'm finding more and more that when I leave the riddle alone for a while, I forget all sorts of information. I guess that's what happens when the riddle is so big :mad: And I naturally understand if you are not capable of assisting. But, and I hope I don't sound like an ass now, I should point out, that you do not need the game to help. I haven't even touched my copy of FF9 once since I started on this riddle. But yeah, if you're on holiday, please do spend your time as you wish.

By the way, are you two actually meeting in person?

[Thingfish]

Yes, tomorrow afternoon, and Loony Bob is apparently popping along too. Don't worry, though, I won't be divulging any riddling secrets :D

[Sir Bahamut]

Really? Have fun then!

[Thingfish]

Hope she doesn't get me drunk, or I may accidentally give away the riddle answer in my inebriated stupor and this whole thing will be for naught...

:yellowkin

[Sir Bahamut]

Haha, that would certainly be something. But knowing you, it'll probably be more along the lines of you using all sorts of mind games to fool them into 'misplacing their pursut'. ;)

[Thingfish]

A very good idea, Sir.B. I shall use that if I notice she's plying me with alcohol! :D

[Lenna]

LMAO MUAHAHAHAHA THEN I SHALL BE THE GREATEST RIDDLER OF ALL TIME ;D

now you're just gonna tell me a false answer to make me post it on here and then make a fool of me ;_; :P

rofl I KNOW YOUR GAME THINGFISH!! :D

Sir Bahamut: I do want to play the game over again, I've tried looking on google/yahoo for certain things which may help lead to the answer, but the only thing I can think of is playing the game searching every aspect. At the moment I can't do that so I'll have to be patient and wait, but I do expect myself to dedicate just a little time to it. I'm not going to give up, and I will assist as much as I can in helping solve this riddle. I'm just sorry that I can't be of any use atm when it comes to the solving at this point. :(

Btw just to note for Psy: The answer is not Vivi's son :P *giggles* :D

[DK]

If Thingfish randomly posts "THERE IS NO ANSWER I WAS PLAYING WITH YOU ALL ROFL" I will vote him for president of the world.

[Endless]

I have a question about the "rubicund...". I haven't played this game for a while, but from what I remember, the Invincible is pretty much red&black themed, in particular the interior. Also, during the scene where it wtfpwns Alexandria, the "eye" is clearly red, and the beam it sends is pink/purple-ish. So yeah, the question is, is that the rubicund you're talking about? In which case it means the character we're looking for was at that point in the city, but survived the blast (but got wounded?).

[Thingfish]

Kyono : What a great idea :D Now if only it didn't have an answer :(

Endless : Sorry, that's not what 'rubicund' has to do with at all here.

[Lenna]

If it is the Invincible it could also be classed as someone who was in Madain Sari when Garnet was a little girl. So I'm not sure if that would be the correct thing. Good idea though, I think if I remember it has "nothing" to do with the Invincible either. So if it's nothing to do with the Invincible then I doubt it, but I could be wrong. Maybe it was only the answer that wasn't the Invincible and I misjudged it to be said as "nothing to do with". I think a few people came out with the specific events that happened which could be to do with this specific part. I'm trying to remember if this was one of the one mentioned or if it was Bahamut itself that was mentioned. Atm I have a bit of a headache so I wont look back just now. Maybe later.

Just my thought anyway :)

Nice view though.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHA NM Thingfish beat me to it :D

[Endless]

;_;


Also, I had a little time and I reordered the "riotous assembly". Maybe someone will figure something, or maybe I'm walking into a dead end again xD
<pre>
aaaa
Cccc
dddd
eeee eeee eeee eeee
ffff
gggg
hhHh
llll
nnnn
oooo
rrrr
ssss ssss
tttt
uuuu uuuu
vvvv
</pre>


Edit: the only destructive "rubicund" event I can think of is when Kuja goes berserk and destroys the genomes and the place they live in, bu I think that one's ruled out since you can't talk to any of them before going there, and unless I'm mistaken, you stated somewhere that the character we're looking for can be seen through all the game. That and I think someone suggested a genome as the answer, which you said was wrong.
Mmhh... There's also the Cleyra settlement's destruction (forgot the name of the Eidolon, though) and Lindblum (Atomos I think).

[Mercen-X]

Well, it certainly looks very useful. I didn't realize there were four of each letter.

remove "THE"

CONFUSED VULGAR SEE

A C D EEE F G L N R SS UU

[Thingfish]

Curses! ;)

[Sir Bahamut]

Hamlet : "...I'll have grounds
More relative than this. The play's the thing
Wherein I''ll catch the conscience of the king"

I always figured one of the references in the riddle would surely be a reference to a Shakespear play, and this seems almost too good to not be correct. If it is, I shall do more research into it.

Upon further searching, I found this:

More: "Gramercies, friend.
To a great prison, to discharge the strife Commenc'd twixt conscience and my frailer life, More now must march. Chelsea, adieu, adieu!"

This from the Shakespear play Sir Thomas More. Another one I found was in a poem by Coleridge:

SUGGESTED BY THE LAST WORDS OF BERENGARIUS
OB. ANNO DOM. 1O88

No more 'twixt conscience staggering and the Pope
Soon shall I now before my God appear,
By him to be acquitted, as I hope;
By him to be condemned, as I fear.--

I found plenty more for "Betwixt conscience"(twixt being an abbreviation of betwixt in reality), but I'll stop with this.
Anything correct?

PS: Mercen, Thingfish said not to remove the determiner until the letters were rearranged, as far as I remember.

[Mercen-X]

There's also the Cleyra settlement's destruction (forgot the name of the Eidolon, though)
Odin

[Thingfish]

Mercen-X : The first stage of the puzzle needs solving differently. Indeed, don't remove 'the' until you've got to the second stage, which is rather difficult to get to.

Sir.B. : Good to see such thorough research on a Saturday night! As this is a very interesting verse, I'll let you carry on, but you are looking in the right direction.

Endless : Sorry, I missed your addition. No the 'rubicund' section is nothing to do with Kuja going berserk, or with a genome, or Cleyra's destruction, or Lindblum.

[Sir Bahamut]

Yes, it certainly looks very interesting. I'll carry on more tomorrow, and look more into the backgrounds of those lines. By the way, school starts again on Monday here, so I'll soon have less time to fiddle with the riddle.

But regardless, I'll keep going anyway.

[Thingfish]

I can't imagine still being at school. Thank goodness I finished it 10 years ago :) Enjoy the remains of your freedom, Sir.B, but don't neglect us!

[Sir Bahamut]

Old geezer :D ;)

As I said, I won't neglect you all. I want to see the riddle solved, and I'll do my best to help solve it even if I can't work on it as much as now. But then again, I haven't really worked on it much these days either. What I've posted is stuff I think up then and there. Except those Hamlet quotes and all; I spent a bit of time finding those.

But yeah, I'm starting the Internation Baccalaureate, which is supposed to be pretty tough on amount of homework and stuff. Ah well, enough about me. I want to see more people analysing that last verse :)

[Lenna]

Well Sir Bahamut, you can be the one behind all the knowledge and research behind the riddle, and when I get the game up here I'LL PLAY THE WHOLE THING THROUGH and help give idea's on what's what.

Or try at least ;)

[Mercen-X]

Mercen-X : The first stage of the puzzle needs solving differently.?

[Thingfish]

Mercen-X : The first stage of the puzzle needs solving differently.

?

i.e, the way you're going about it is completely wrong :D

[Mercen-X]

Endless's bit is right though . . . right?

[Thingfish]

Well, you don't need to split them up into groups of 4 of the same letters to see what needs to be done in the first stage of working out the puzzle, you simply need to recognise something about those two lines.

[Mercen-X]

recognize.
I guess I'm one of the vulgar 'cause you lost me.

Only things I notice are "death" and "Heaven" having "'s", "Confused", "scourged", and "slaughtered" having "ed", and "vulgar" and "focus" being the only words without "e".

I don't "recognize anything at this point. I guess I should just move on to another verse.

[Thingfish]

Hehe, ok, that may be best at the moment.

I notice you changed my spelling even though you quoted me :D

[Mercen-X]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: That's how I operate

[Thingfish]

Just back from meeting Lenna and Looney Bob, and what lovely people they are! :D With all her dedication, I reckon she'll put Sir.B's investigations to shame! And to top it all off, she's a hottie too! :love:

Hehe. Had a great time.

She didn't get drunk so I didn't bother telling her the riddle answer, though.

:D

[Lenna]

We didn't really talk about the riddle that much anyway TF ;)

Daniel was the only one interested in talking about the riddle HE TALKED MORE ABOUT IT THAN I DID!!! :p. You could say that I'd rather ask you on here about the riddle itself than in person, because asking on here gives others the chance to see your opinion on what I've said too. But when I get my pc and FF9 over here, you can guarantee my dedication here will be top notch! and I'll have all the information we need in no time ;) Thingfish knows ALL about my plan to investigate hehe :)

But yeah, Thingfish is a charming and may I say nice guy!!!. So don't let a nice guy down!! keep trying your hardest with the riddle folks! Make him proud! haha :D

PS: I am NOT a hottie :P

[Thingfish]

I reckon the riddle will be under major fire if she gets her PC with the FFIX emulator! Hurry, everyone else!! :D

And she IS a hottie! Hehe.

[Lenna]

Tut! I have a chance at solving the riddle and you're telling everyone to get in gear so I don't have the chance anymore :P haha I only have to wait til Sunday next week possibly :P then I'll have the best chance ever, although I don't know if I'll have net access on my computer by then, but I shall have access to the emulator ;)

I know exactly what I'm going to do and I think it's going to be quite interesting too as well as informative. If I can't think of anything from it I may post a summary of it up on here. But that's if I myself can't think of anything from it :P

But from the way I see it, by doing what I'd do when having access to my pc and the ePSXe emulator, I'll have a pretty good job and a great chance at getting close to the answer. Especially with my dedication and motivation ;)

PS I'M NOT A HOTTIE!!! ;O *slaps Thingfish* :P

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, I'm glad that you're so dedicated and fired up, Lenna! Thingfish will remember that I was probably even more fired up and dedicated with his last riddle, which is why I'm sort of burned out now.

So I'll just be glad if you end up working it all out without me :)

[Lenna]

Haha, Most of my dedication will be towards the game, as the riddle itself is too hard for my thick little mind. I've got alot of plans to do with the game, so I can help with the gaming side of it for sure once I have my computer here. So you can count on me for that ;D

As I said to Thingfish earlier today, I wont give up as when I first started looking at this riddle I thought / even posted "nah this riddle will end up dying out sooner or later".. Now here's me, constantly trying my hardest to beg people not to give up, and also dedicating myself to trying to help you lot out aswell as preparing myself to do alot towards the riddle itself.

So, my dedication has certainly gone up for this riddle. I think if I do what I'm going to do correctly then I'll certainly have a chance of helping out a huge amount towards the riddle or even being able to get the answer to the riddle too.

I don't believe that I'll get the answer, but it sure would be nice to, as I don't think I'm that smart lol. I guess working this hard on it though proves me wrong slightly. I think ;o

EDIT: Thingfish, I'm trying to look at the puzzle bit now and I was wondering. Is the puzzle actually in those words or do we have to translate them to get to the point where we'll see how it is re-arranged?

Just a thought like :P

[Sir Bahamut]

Ah, but with some very simple and basic information we have, recognising the answer should be fairly easy. At least, if you make sure to talk to everybody. Basically, we know something so basic about the answer that it doesn't take fitting him/her in with everything to realise he/she is the answer. But naturally, fitting him/her in with everything is much more satisfying ;)

Then again, I may be wrong. Llanowar says he has played through the game, but was unable to find the answer. But then again, he may have been looking for the wrong signs.

Regardless, I think you have a good chance at finding the answer, even without full knowledge of the riddle. But I think you would agree that it'd be better to only reveal the guess after we have on beforehand fitted it in with everything.

[Thingfish]

The puzzle is in those words, Lenna, so the first stage is realising what you need to do with them.

[Lenna]

Ah, but with some very simple and basic information we have, recognising the answer should be fairly easy. At least, if you make sure to talk to everybody. Basically, we know something so basic about the answer that it doesn't take fitting him/her in with everything to realise he/she is the answer. But naturally, fitting him/her in with everything is much more satisfying ;)

Then again, I may be wrong. Llanowar says he has played through the game, but was unable to find the answer. But then again, he may have been looking for the wrong signs.

Regardless, I think you have a good chance at finding the answer, even without full knowledge of the riddle. But I think you would agree that it'd be better to only reveal the guess after we have on beforehand fitted it in with everything.


I don't think searching just for the characters is going to help us get anywhere, atm I don't really want to reveal what I'm going to do to many people because I'd rather try it myself and see how I do, but any information I gain upon doing so I'll pass along when I come to it. But I've told my idea to Thingfish and as far as I know he's pretty confident I'll get somewhere by doing it lol. That's why I'd rather just do it myself right now otherwise if other people started doing it it'd probably be a waste of my own time. And it'd defeat the point of it being my own idea.

I'm not trying to hog all the guesswork etc, no no no, understand that I came up with the idea and I'd like to be able to get the credit for it. But that'd be once I've finished doing what I'm going to do. As I said, if I can't think of anything from the information I get, then I will post information up on here, to help people.

I just think right now, I'd like to try this idea myself, without anyone being able to make me waste my time, or take the credit for my own idea you know?

It's not very often I come out with good ideas, and I think if people started to do it then I'd have wasted my time putting the effort into it.

So please dont mistake me for hogging all the information, because I guarantee I will help amongst the gaming side.

[Sir Bahamut]

I apologise if that is what it sounded like I thought. I was not in any way trying to accuse you. I didn't, and still don't, have any idea about your idea, but I'm sure it will work!

What I was saying was that when searching for the answer, it isn't technically speaking necessary to know everything about the riddle to spot him/her. That's all. So please, do continue with your idea, whatever it may be! Regardlessly, I will eventually play through the game myself. But I guess chances are the answer has been found by then anyway.

[Lenna]

Ah no no no no you misunderstood me then! :P

You mentioned about the answer being particularly easy to find if we speak to everybody.

I, in my own opinion, don't believe that to be true. I believe there is a lot more to the person than we think. I don't believe that searching through everyone we see will be enough to understand who the answer is.

I also didn't mean that you thought the riddle was something I should understand or that what you said was accusing me, I merely placed it in my little explanation of what I was planning to do as if I refused to tell you what I was going to do, people may have accused me. If I had explained it before or whilst I mentioned I had an idea which would be quite interesting and good, then at least people would understand why I've kept it to myself during this time.

I don't understand the riddle, that's why I think I'd have better luck playing the game and doing my idea, rather than sitting there reading the riddle, because doing that would make me completely blank and I wouldn't understand a single word & time would pass by.

I'd like to contribute as much as I can, but in all honesty this riddle will only have one person with the answer. If there's a chance that it could be me I'd like to have a go and at least try, because then I'd have something to be proud of. I don't have much of an ego and I really don't think I'll get the answer, but as I said, if there's a chance, I'd like to at least try.

I think that you are very good with all the knowledge and investigation into the riddle itself, which will be helpful towards others and myself. With each of us trying in separate area's and giving information to help people, it will make a big difference, as well as possibly making this riddle easier to solve.

I'm not accusing you of saying that I'm hogging all the information etc, I just mentioned it in my previous post to give an idea of why I wanted to keep this idea to myself.

Regardless of how much information I get, if I cannot figure out the answer, I shall summarise every bit of information I have and post it here.

I'd just like to reach for those 15 minutes of fame :P hehe

[Sir Bahamut]

Hm, well, I still stand firm that just a single piece of basic information that we already have will be enough to locate the answer. Perhaps not many realise this though, which is a good thing, and I don't intend to let the world know what I'm taling about. Not because I want 15 minutes of fame(I've solved my fair share of TF riddles by now anyway), but because it'd probably result in someone finding the answer and blurting it out here.

And I completely understand what you mean about solving it for pride and 15 minutes of fame though; you're exactly like I was when Thingfish posted his first riddle at Gamefaqs(that must be more than 3 years ago by now). And I do hope that you end up being the one who finds the name we're looking for, for that reason exactly. I'll be pleased enough having helped along the way.

[Lenna]

Thank you :)

[Thingfish]

Hmmm, I only remember giving away the answers to my previous riddles. They were never guessed.

You go for it, Lenna. History shows Sir.B. wouldn't really have been able to see this one through either anyway.


...


...


Wait for it...


;)

[Lenna]

Can I mention, after me and Daniel have been looking at the puzzle, *still doing it*

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.

Did anyone realise that those 2 lines are an anagram of themselves?

I know you understood that they were all part of an anagram.

If you write down the first line of those two, then cross out each letter of the second line you'll see that (including the comma, the apostraphe).

Now think of it this way, if these two lines are an anagram of themselves, then we're only really looking at the set of letters from the one line right?

Now me and Daniel wrote out these letters, and removed (THE) as stated to, even if it's not right but we tried.

These letters were

AA
CC
DD
FF
GG
LL
NN
OO
RR
SS SS
UU UU
VV

Now looking at these letters we came across this.

GARLAND
AA
CC
DD
FF
GG
LL
NN
OO
RR
SS SS
UU UU
VV

We're trying to think if there are any other names referred to in these letters. But, yeah, I don't think we are looking at the letters from both of the lines as it would only be like saying the same thing twice.

Thingfish: can you confirm if we are meant to take away just "The" or the letters "THE" from the puzzle?

EDIT: DANIEL THE IDIOT FORGOT TO TELL ME ABOUT THE TWO C'S WHEN I WROTE THE LETTERS UP!

[Thingfish]

You've only noticed half of the first stage, Lenna (& Daniel :) ). You don't need to look for a person's name in the puzzle, either, and you don't need to remove 'THE' until the end of the second stage :D

[Lenna]

Okay back a few steps then ;)

EDIT: Am I right though?

About only the one set of letters (asin the letters from either line but not both) should be used instead of both??

[Thingfish]

Yes, there is only one set of letters to use...

...but which one? :D

[Lenna]

Ok what do you mean by which one?

The letters in each are exactly the same,

And We'd like to know is it just coincidence that in "ONE" set of letters from ONE line, we can find the following Towns/Locations (not all in one go but the letters can spell them out one by one):

Daguerreo
Gargan Roo
North Gate
South Gate
Terra
Treno

Is this getting warmer?

[Thingfish]

The question is, what set of letters should be used. You've chosen the wrong sets so far :D

And, funnily enough, it is just a coincidence that the letters make up those locations. I guess those locations are what the 'vulgar' would see ;) ;)

[Lenna]

What do you mean by the "wrong sets", either way you look at it, you'll get the same letters from each line, unless you mean that we don't put them into alphabetical order, and we keep them in the order they're already in, with the line that we choose? so either way we haven't chosen the wrong sets, we've just used them the wrong way.

[Thingfish]

Gwahaha! That will teach you to try to take on the hardest part of the riddle!

:cool:

:D

[Lenna]

Tut!!! Do we have to keep the letters in the order we find them? Please tell us that much? :P (it's not telling us which one) :p

[Thingfish]

Yes.

[Lenna]

We've also noticed that the first half (to the letter) of each line is an anagram of the second half of the line.

Confused, the vulgar see

Vengeful death's course

These two are complete anagrams of each other.

As are these:

Heaven's flute scourged,

Even focus slaughtered.

So basically it's like folding those 2 lines into 4 on a bit of paper. BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? :P

Do we use only the ONE set of lines? :P

And for what it's worth, it's 20 letters each.

[Thingfish]

Yes, indeed. Took you long enough to notice that :D :D

Bwaha!

That's the first stage nearly complete, but you now need to realise what to do with those letters :D

And that is nigh on impossible!

[Lenna]

haha maybe so, maybe not ;)


EDIT: Has the "puzzle" you've used been used before? or is it something you've come up with yourself (asin is it a type of puzzle that has been used before, or have you figured a new way out yourself) sorry if that doesn't make sense.

Mercen-X: *Mumbles..."evil post deleter making me double post.. nyah..grrr"* I don't think so, (daniel says) because the comma's would have to too. but they're not.

[Thingfish]

I came up with it myself, in a moment of evil genius...

[Sir Bahamut]

Two quick questions:

1) Lindblum has not been confirmed to NOT be the location of the answer, right?

2) Has Thingfish really confirmed that the Watchman is a real person?

[Lenna]

1: If you look back, you'll see he's not confirmed anything to do with the location of the answer. All he's mentioned is that the answer can be seen in more than one location, unsure of it if is on all discs, but he knows they are on more than one. Although their lines are only on the one disc.

2: As far as we know the Watchman is the person who knows his real name and I would think that the "heir" would be this watchman, we know that the heir is not a person, but I do not believe we know that the watchman is human or an object.

[Thingfish]

Let me quote myself from page 40 of the last topic :

'"Watchman to mine own" refers to the one person who speaks 'my' (the answer's) full name (mine own).'

[Sir Bahamut]

EDIT: Ah, entered the post screen before Thingfish's post.

If the Watchman is a person, that dissapoints me. You ever heard of Roodle Faux, Thingfish? Can't be the answer unfortunately, because his name is not revealed by a person. But there are still plenty more to go!

[Thingfish]

I have indeed heard of him. Not him though. Bit of a random guess from Sir.B. there...

;)

[Mercen-X]

Mercen-X : The first stage of the puzzle needs solving differently.
Confessed vulture 'heg.

[Thingfish]

Nice one, Mercen-X :)

[Lenna]

Thingfish: You know that anagrams were part of the puzzle. Well seeing as those 2 lines are basically anagrams of themselves. Is there something else we're looking for in one of those sections or are we rearranging them again?

Because of what you said about we've got to keep them in a certain order, if we rearrange them then that'd defeat the whole point as we'd still get the same things altogether.

So are we looking for another anagram or something else?

[Thingfish]

The reason for keeping them in order was so that you'd see that half of one line was an anagram of the second half.

Yes, you are now looking for another anagram :D

[Lenna]

Can we go back to looking for locations/names in this part?

[Thingfish]

You can if you wish :)

[Lenna]

We've had a look even more:

Here are a few idea's that we've come up with (Thingfish if you tell us we're wrong I'll slap you for saying I told you so!, remember they're IDEA'S)

The anagram could include the following:

Legend of the ....... (leaving ACERSSUUV)
Second verse (leaving AEFGHLTUU)
Last verse (leaving CDEEFGHNOUU)

Not sure if they're anything other than coincidence for now, but hey, worth a look.

[Endless]

Using a quarter of the letters (since each half line is an anagram of the other, and therefore the two lines are too as was said before), the first anagram I could come up with is:
"eve's confused laughter".

Edit: only a few hundred/thousand other anagramas to find xD

Edit2: amusingly, it's also an anagram of "curse fought saved neel".

[Thingfish]

Chortle... :D

Time to try a different bit of the riddle, I reckon :)

[Lenna]

It's Daniels fault. He's the one who keeps looking for ONE word in the anagram and not a whole sentence.

[Thingfish]

I told you to stop the logic expert analysing it :D

[Lenna]

rofl :P well ANAGRAMS is still technically logic. ;) unless you were playing your mindgames there too! ;o

[Thingfish]

There's more art involved in it now :)

[Lenna]

hmmmm so is it with only one of those sections that we need, and we need to spot what is different about the one? ;o

[Thingfish]

No, it's much, much harder than that. So hard, that you really shouldn't waste time on that section and should rather look elsewhere in the riddle. Honestly!

:)

[Lenna]

As I've already said ;) I have no use for the rest of the riddle. I'm thick, and can't understand any of it. Although I had a few idea's about some of the verse but I think "parts" have been mentioned already.

So I can't do the rest of the riddle, so I may aswell look at what I can do. Even if I don't do it properly ;) I have no loss. I'm not useful until I get my pc ;)

[Thingfish]

You just need to sit there being hot instead, then...

:love:

[Lenna]

Rofl I AM NOT HOT!!!!!! And I'm trying to crack it down now ;)

[Thingfish]

Rofl I AM NOT HOT!!!!!! And I'm trying to crack it down now ;)

Crack down on you being hot? Impossible.

[Lenna]

NO!!! I'M NOT A HOTTIE!!! ;o and I mean the riddle. I've got 3 sets of boxes (I've tried 3 different approaches with it to see if i can find anything unusual :P)

[Thingfish]

Keep going then, if you like, hottie. :D It'll pass your time until Thursday, I guess :)

[Lenna]

*slaps Thingfish while singing* I'm not a hottie. And yes it will, but I'm finding it interesting. If only it was something that'd jump out at ya while you look at it.

[Thingfish]

Well, the first part was. I was surprised it took so long for that to be noticed :)

[Lenna]

Hrm... :p

*thinks* :D

I'm doing this as well as singing down YIM for people cause I'm trying to get an audience to help me calm my nerves lol. So I'm like half concentrating on this too :D

[Loony BoB]

Well, the first part was. I was surprised it took so long for that to be noticed :)
Didn't take me long at all. :p First time I'd actually seen it, and I immediately noticed it was an anagram (I hadn't seen Raf's earlier post until after I noticed it) and then in the same night I noticed even the lines could be split in half for further anagrams. Sadly, as it seems you need FFIX knowledge for the rest of this, that's probably all I'll be able to do to help out.

And as for you, Little Miss "It's Daniel's Fault" - It's also my fault you made any progress on that riddle last night at all, so shut ya trap. :p

[Lenna]

rofl excuse me? mr "I found it straight away"?

You were sat looking at it for like half an hour before you frigging found it you liar!

[Thingfish]

Careful, he'll ban you, and that'll be that for your riddle-guessing... ;)

[Loony BoB]

My sincerest apologies, the young lady is most certainly correct. My lengthy struggle did indeed last possibly even more than a drastic 30 minutes, which of course is very similar to the four months that have passed by since Lenna first saw such things. I hope nobody will hold such statements against me, dreadfully sorry, please forgive me... :p

[Lenna]

As I have mentioned for the millionth time now Daniel. I do not look at the riddle itself, as I have no knowledge of anything to do with English Literature, or in other words, that type of English.

[Thingfish]

Well, I wouldn't really want my riddle being solved by someone who didn't delve deeply into the linguistic and grammatical intricacies of it, so I would ask you to refrain with your examination, hottie...

[Lenna]

YOU'RE EVIL! *sits and cries..* that is horrible.. Truely and utterly horrible. ;_;

[Thingfish]

I don't have my Hitler smiley here, but this is when I would use it...

[Lenna]

I guess I'll just stop posting here then! and ignore my complete idea of what I was going to do! ;_; Ok then GOOD LUCK EVERYONE HAVE FUN! *walks out* ;_;

[Thingfish]

Whew...now she's gone, my riddle will last forever, since she was the only one that was likely to solve it, the wee hottie :love:

:cool:

[Loony BoB]

But now what is she going to do around my flat? :( She was so excited about this thing.

It's kind of amusing that this riddle has given me more encouragement to play FFIX than, well, anything or anyone else has before. I might actually give it a shot just so I can have a stab at this thing.

...probably not, but oh well.

[Thingfish]

At this moment she'll probably be tearing down your flat in a frustrated rage at the evil mindgames she is forced to endure :)

It would indeed be fun if you started playing the game and came up with the answer, Bob... ;)

[Loony BoB]

At this moment she'll probably be tearing down your flat in a frustrated rage at the evil mindgames she is forced to endure :)

It would indeed be fun if you started playing the game and came up with the answer, Bob... ;)
If I found the answer, I think Lenna would probably slit my throat in my sleep and then claim it as her own. Or just slit my throat in my sleep. Or just beat me up. Or something.

[Sir Bahamut]

What is this, MSN messenger or a riddle topic? Less talk, more analysis!

I was looking into the last verse again. Firstly, after refreshing my Shakespearean expressions, I have a much clearer insight into the two first lines there. I was misreading things, thinking that the conscience itself was 'twixt', when it should read more along these lines:

"Between a caught conscience and more relative grounds,
all tears and woe be in our presence past."

In other words, twixt comes in front of two different 'things'. So translating this line again, I'd venture to say it's something like this:

Regardless of what reason you have, be it a more idealistic moral one(ie. the conscience) or be it for reasons not so idealistic and full(ie. relative grounds), what we want is for our troubles to be gone with.

Is that close? I'm sure it must be closer in any case.

Now, for the literrary reference, I've also had another breakthrough, which makes me seem quite blind. Let's take a look at the quote from Hamlet:

Hamlet: I'll have grounds
More relative than this, The play's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King.

I never noticed that he says he will catch the conscience of the King! Catch the conscience! Conscience caught! So I'm ditching the Thomas More reference(although the line I looked at has a curious resemblance to the riddle line: "Commenc'd twixt conscience and my frailer life, ...").

Now, the setting in which this stated is after the ghost has encouraged Hamlet to revenge himself on Claudius, but he needs more proof, since the ghost is all he has to back his revenge on! Remember that Claudius killed Hamlets father, thus usurping the throne(oooh, the connections dig ever deeper!), so Hamlet wanted revenge. However, as mentioned, he wished for Claudius to be perceived as having deserved it, freeing Hamlet of charges of treason. Now, there's a play being put up(hmm, connection to the Tantalus play? sounds likely to me!), and Hamlet decides to have them include a murder scene which is actually a re-enactment of Claudius murder of Hamlets father! He then asks Horatio to look at the Kings/Claudius reactions when this scene is played, so that they can both agree on his guilt, undermine his status, and thus free him up to be killed by Hamlet.

But what does all this mean for the riddle? It might serve to correct my previous take on the line into something like this:

"Between solid evidence and more weak, not so solid reasons(relative grounds), all we want is for out problems/woe to go away".

The connection may be closer, but I cannot say much more at the moment. One thing I can say though, and that is that this is getting very interesting! Looks like you really made a network of deep references in this riddle, Thingfish! I can't wait to unlock it! :D

EDIT: Made a few edits here and there, so skim through it again just in case, Thingfish!

[Thingfish]

Great to see you going into such detail, Sir.B! At last, a fellow Thespian! Your ideas are indeed taking shape, but have not yet got the gist of the matter that is required. The second line of that verse may serve to instruct you further.

You are certainly in that I have a network of very deep references woven into the fabric of this riddle, and it is very interesting to me to see how you go about unravelling them!

[Loony BoB]

Out of curiosity more than anything, are there any more logic clues in this thing?

Stuff like...

In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum
could be seen as something to do with a letter (or letters) being absent from "anterior regard" yet present in "interregnum" - in such a case, u and m. The letters in those two phrases/words just seemed extremely similar.

These are the dumb little things I notice when actually bothering to read through the riddle for the first time. I learned me some new words today, I did.

[Thingfish]

No, no more logic puzzles like that, I'm afraid :( You have officially become obsolete to Lenna :D

[Loony BoB]

I wish.

Well, good luck to everyone. :)

[Masamune·1600]

It's been quite some time since I actively participated in this riddle, but I think I'm going to try and get involved again. For the moment, I'm simply going to try to build on Sir B.'s comments on the fifth verse.


Twixt conscience caught and more relative grounds,
All tears and woe be in our presence past.
At helm of craft, portentous death knell sounds.
Recurrent pause, wilt thou begun at last?

Based on TF's response to the matter of Hamlet, I believe that The Murder of Gonzago may be relevant to understanding the verse. There are a number of startling parallels between the Mousetrap and I want to Be Your Canary, some of which include:

-overall framework (play within a play vs. play within a game)
-death of royalty/nobility within the plays (Cornelia/Gonzago) vs. death of royalty in story at large (elder Hamlet/Gertrude/Claudius/Hamlet contrasting with Garnet's father/Brahne)
-in both Hamlet and FFIX, the plays are recurring diversions that set in motion critical events

I could list dozens more, but it's really unnecessary (unless one of the parallels I didn't list would prove somehow crucial).

(I'll get to where this is going in a bit)

Now, Sir B. has already reworded the first line as "Between a conscience caught and more relative grounds."

Deciphered so, the allusion to Shakespeare (many of the great tragedies would fit here, but we'll stick to Hamlet based on the previous evidence) seems stronger. Relative morality is, after all, an important theme in Hamlet. Much of Hamlet's fatal hesitance stems from his confusion regarding the Ghost's demand. The very lines in the second soliloquy proceeding Sir B.'s famous quote are...


The spirit that I have seen / May be the devil, and the devil hath power / T' assume a pleasing shape; yea, and perhaps / Out of my weakness and my melancholy, / As he is very potent with such spirits / Abuses me to damn me.

As this is the case, I think the first line might have a more literal meaning than has been suggested thus far. I'm hesitant to push that reading, given the obscurity of the answer, but I think it might in somw way be relevant.

That being said, something about the second line jumps out at me. It seems as though the answer can, thorughout the riddle, be construed as the speaker (mine/my/me). Yet in this line, we see use of "our." While this could be some sort of aspect of royal address (given what's been analyzed in this verse thus far, and the additional word "presence"), I feel it might be something different. Unfortunately, I'm not reading this clearly enough at the moment to decipher it. It may be obvious.

It's important, though, to view the second line as a continuation of the first. In that case, that which is "between" "conscience" and "more relative grounds" may be desirable here.

The third line is confusing. If I continue to look to allusion, I suppose it could parallel Hamlet's return to Denmark after the written incident with the pirates. The fourth line is really baffling, so I'll stay clear of it for the moment.

That's what I have for now. No guess as to the actual answer. Hopefully someone can find something of use in my ramblings.

[Sir Bahamut]

Very interesting thoughts. I was also puzzled at the mention of "our" in the second line there, but like you, I cannot see anything obvious at the moment. Thingfish said the second line would help though, so I'll put more focus on that in further analysis.

A few things I should point out though:

1) It is unlikely that the entire last verse is a Shakespeare reference, so your inability to find anything in the last two lines probably stems from the fact that there isn't anything to find in the first place. I may be wrong here(Thingfish, this is where you settle the doubts ;) ) but I think it is only the two first lines that refer to Hamlet.

2) Looking at the original quote, a quite literal interpretation of what is between caught conscience and more relative grounds is "the play's the thing", or simply 'the play'. I reckon this is too literal though, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.

Again, very interesting. Glad to see someone else helping me too!

[Thingfish]

Indeed great to see someone else participating with such detail in this riddle. Glad to welcome you back, masamune!

Sir.B : I need not settle every doubt as soon as you have it. It is not for me to solve this riddle, but for all of you...Doubts are the riddlemaker's friend :) I prefer to watch how you all unravel the entwined threads of the matter...

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry for not doing any more today. Pretty much straight after school and dinner I went to see a quite outstanding performance of King Lear. Now I definitely see why they call it Shakespeares most blackest play! Very tragic stuff indeed.

[Thingfish]

Was it in Norwegian? ;)

Back to school, eh? Very tragic indeed! :D

[Sir Bahamut]

No, all in English, by a travelling troupe of british actors actually.

And yeah, school is pretty tragic too, but I don't suspect a full workload quite yet. Not until next week at least.

[Thingfish]

Hope school doesn't take too much of your time! :)

[Masamune·1600]

The last two lines of the fifth verse still bother me. I think Sir B. is right when he suggests that the literary reference doesn't extend to them, but I'm still having trouble with them. They could merely suggest that the end of the riddle approaches (the death knell being for the life of the riddle), but I don't think Thingfish would have wasted lines in that fashion. That would mean that they're still relevant (and probably connect to the ideas in the first half of the verse), but I still can't put them in place.

Somewhere, Thingfish is laughing.

Well, I'll be back to examine this later.

[Mercen-X]

This is where Thingfish posts "Bwahahaha!"

[Thingfish]

Oh, those lines aren't wasted...

GWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

[Mercen-X]

I stand corrected. *gwa*

[Thingfish]

Well, if you notice in the FF games, various people do various evil laughs beginning either 'Bwah', 'Gwah', 'Kwah', 'Rwah', 'Fwah', 'Pwah' or, of course 'Mwah'. Gives me loads of options ;)

[Thingfish]

Sir.B. really must be back at school rather than simply slacking off like he usually does...

Where are everyone else? :(

[friscodude]

Wow, upon seeing this riddle I flashbacked to a year or two back where I first saw this riddle and did minor research yet didnt contribute much of anything. Now seeing it again I wish to try and see what I can decipher, seeing as its been over a year and nothing major has been figured out :cry: I may not be much help, but Ill try to add some ideas, and hopefully eliminate false ones. Ill also be darned if i come up with a solution seeing how I've never made it totally thru the 3rd disc :D

Well referring back to the anagram-age, assuming you divide the two lines of the 4th verse into 4 parts :
1) Confused the vulgar see
2) Vengeful death's course
3) Heaven's flute scourged
4) Even focus slaughtered
Each of these are anagrams of each other one if that serves to be of any use. Note: this is only a result of around 10 min. study and thanks to others i noticed this ;). Also- does this mystery person's line appear throughout the main story or must you seek him out to discover his name? :mad:

[Thingfish]

Good to see you back, friscodude :)

It's been established that recognising that the first two lines of the 4th verse were split into sections that were anagrams of each other was simply the first step of solving the puzzle of those lines. The second step is to find one other anagram that can be made out of one of those sections (doesn't matter which, as they all have the same letters). The third step is then to examine that anagram and see how it tells you the full name of the answer.

I must say, however, the second and third parts are insanely difficult, so I wouldn't bother spending too much time on them at present :D

The answer's real name does not appear through the naturally course of the story, no.

[Sir Bahamut]

Yeah, Thingfish, I really am back at school. I still have the weekends anyway, so expect another stab from me during the next few days. It's quite silly really, that when I finally get intent on actually solving the riddle, I start school again :mad:

Frisco: Glad to see someone else join the fray!

[friscodude]

Thanks for the welcomes :) And its also nice to know that the character isnt located in main story sequences as Im starting the game over as of now and will look for anything that may pertain to riddle stuffs (if i do somehow get a lucky guess i refuse to post an answer unless i can solve how the riddle refers to it). Otherwise, I thought I would try to be smart and use an automatic anagram solver. Unfortunately, thousands of results show which I think would be more strenuous to sort thru than actually finding the answer :rolleyes2

[Thingfish]

Best get sorting, Frisco :D

[Masamune·1600]

I've been looking over the "anagram puzzle," and there's something that's not totally clear to me. Have we progressed to the point (the realization that the "half-lines" are anagrams) where "the" should be removed, or do we need to complete another step first?

[Lenna]

You need to complete the anagram first. I believe that the whole stage of solving the puzzle is what we need to do first, then once we progress to the second stage, we then take out 'the'.

[Lenna]

TBH friscodude, I think that Thingfish wouldn't want you to post up all the places they could be as it could attract random guessing. A while ago when I had a list of all NPC's in the game I asked him if I could let people know the link and he said not. I think he'd just prefer if you narrow it down - then - post it.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The statue in Lindblum Castle. You know the one where the "!" appears and you ress it and nothing happens except for text. There is something about a coin too. Is it that?

This is my impression as I am rereading the riddle. *goes back to analysis*

EDIT: I meant to say that fountian right before you take the lift.

EDIT #2: The more I think about it, the more it seems like the answer. I remember the mentioning of heirs, but wasn't the statue in the fountain one of Cid's ancestors?

[Lenna]

Bobby, it's already been established that the answer is "a person", if there is a "coin" mentioned like you said, then it's possible that the coin could be the heir. As the heir is not a living person. They could be dead or it could be an item. We do not know.

[friscodude]

Okie doke- sorry bout that Lenna, but Ill keep workin on that by meself :p.
Leviathan: I agree with Lenna on this one- maybe the artisans who crafted it can be found in-game? :confused: But there is also another statue in the Lindblum Castle, found as you walk up the steps from the aircab station- the dude on the horse, commemorated for the first Cid.

[Lenna]

No problem Friscodude <3, I've just managed to get so obsessed with this riddle I know everything that Thingfish has said off by heart. I even managed to prove that when meeting him on Sunday last week lol.

It has been mentioned that the heir could be like a diary, or a statue for instance. Anything that has even the smallest connection with the answer.

I think it'd also be worth while to search for any secret/hidden weapons for the characters you get, as they may have an inscription on it. I've never actually played the game indepth, but I plan to as I move to Edinburgh in the next few days.

Until then I'm just keeping quiet on here, and helping with what's been said and not said (because I can remember it off by heart ;_;) I'm seriously obsessed.

[friscodude]

Lol, well having somebody who knows the rules will help hopefully. Well one "heir-type thing" Ive found in my halfway-thru-disk-one-indepth-playthrough is a statue in the Lindblum Inn (a Bobo?) It is said that the statue was bought by the original inkeeper and is passed down through the generations. It doesnt seem to have a connection with any NPC though, except maybe the Innkeeper; his only line technically is "Would you like to rest?". Maybe a certain other NPC reveals his name? :confused: :mad:

Edit: Also, Ill be focusing on finding clues within the actual game, seeing as how my literary/historical knowledge is very limited and that my interpretations of the riddle's meanings have been solely based from other opinions. So confusing :cry:

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Sorry about that Tiff. Like you said maybe it is the heir, or has to do with it, I never finish analyzing it. (I just have a strong feeling about the statue, I feel like it means something...Or maybe I am wishfully hoping...) Also I did not completely pay attention to the thread cuz well, I guess I am too lazy. *sighs*

*goes back to what he was doing before*

[Lenna]

Lol, well having somebody who knows the rules will help hopefully. Well one "heir-type thing" Ive found in my halfway-thru-disk-one-indepth-playthrough is a statue in the Lindblum Inn (a Bobo?) It is said that the statue was bought by the original inkeeper and is passed down through the generations. It doesnt seem to have a connection with any NPC though, except maybe the Innkeeper; his only line technically is "Would you like to rest?". Maybe a certain other NPC reveals his name? :confused: :mad:

Edit: Also, Ill be focusing on finding clues within the actual game, seeing as how my literary/historical knowledge is very limited and that my interpretations of the riddle's meanings have been solely based from other opinions. So confusing :cry:

I can tell you now that Thingfish has said that the character we are looking for does indeed have more than one line. But only about 2/3 max. It was assumed that the character had 1 line.

I feel the same way. I can't understand anything to do with the riddle, so I've decided to base my studies on the game purely. Which I shall do when I've moved to Edinburgh. I'm scared of starting anything now incase I end up cursing myself by breaking my computer or something while moving :D

As for you Bobby, if you have a strong feeling about it, it's best to try putting it aside until you can find other clues to link to it (I can promise you I'll probably end up talking like TF at the end of all this too.)

Anything too obvious is bound to be wrong. This is Thingfish we are talking about here.

Edit: Bobby, if you're too lazy to read the thread, just msg me on msn and any questions you ask I'll most likely be able to answer them (if they've been mentioned before on the thread)

[friscodude]

Haha, well hopefully as we both go thru either of us will discover something...I hope :cry: . Ah I see, more than one but not very many will do. Assuming Sir B. and Masamune keep working on the riddle, as it seems theyre doing very well analyzing it, we'll all get somewhere. Im playing as I type this post so Im looking to finish Disc 1 by the end of the weekend and eliminate the Answer from there- I also have two spare/empty memory cards, so I might seperately save in each slot from now on until the riddle is solved just for reference :p

[Lenna]

Haha, well hopefully as we both go thru either of us will discover something...I hope :cry: . Ah I see, more than one but not very many will do. Assuming Sir B. and Masamune keep working on the riddle, as it seems theyre doing very well analyzing it, we'll all get somewhere. Im playing as I type this post so Im looking to finish Disc 1 by the end of the weekend and eliminate the Answer from there- I also have two spare/empty memory cards, so I might seperately save in each slot from now on until the riddle is solved just for reference :p

Sir B wont be doing too much analysis for the riddle as he's just gone back to school. I believe that the most he'll have to work on it is at the weekends.

Haha, when I play the game I plan to play it a lot more indepth and take note of quite alot. Not to mention I'll be playing it on my PSX emulator so I'll have unlimited memory card slots. :D which means I can have a save for every save point in the game just incase I need to go back to a certain spot.

Like I said, I'm obsessed ):

[friscodude]

:eek: :cry: Not fair...unlimited save slots...im jealous. Well then Ill just have to record evry save slot before you : P

Edit: Eek...upon the realization I get 15 blocks per card I think Ill be passing the save at every spot idea on to you Leena :D

[Lenna]

*SLAPS* Lenna, or Tiff :P not Leena you'd be mistaking me for Leene then :).

I've got alot of good idea's, that revolve around the game only. If I can't find the answer, I'll certainly post the information that's relevant to the riddle.

[friscodude]

Im not sure if this has been said before, but can the line "Confused, the vulgar see" be translated to "Confused, the vulgar C" as in the consonant. Upon minor Googling, it seems there was a form of Latin called "Vulgar", using different pronunciations and such- so could this section be replaced with a translation of sorts? I doubt this is correct for I can barely read this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin) without my brain spazming, but maybe someone could verify/denounce this assumption?

EDIT: In my non game time Ill be working on that anagram- but does the new anagram thats supposed to be formed from those letters refer to anything or is it a random cryptic message we must figure out from the rest of the puzzle? And are we missing one somewhat obvious point that would give us a start? :confused:

[Thingfish]

Good to see there's hardly anything for me to comment on, as Lenna does such an effective job of it :) Seems she was unbanned. Can't say I'm happy about a forum-felon working on my riddle and not even looking into the meanings of the riddle itself, though... ;)

Frisco : The new anagram that is created is indeed still cryptic :D

In this riddle, the 'vulgar' can refer to people who are trying to guess at this riddle but only see the superficial elements of it, as in the 'common' people :)

Although your idea regarding Vulgar Latin is not correct, i.e. the section is not to be replaced with a direct translation of sorts, there is nevertheless Latin involved here, indeed denoted by the use of the word 'vulgar'.

[Lenna]

Thingfish :P If you had read any of the previous threads in general chat etc, you would have seen that it was a complete joke the admins/mods had taken on. I wasn't banned for a reason. They did it cause they felt like banning me!

So we should be looking for latin translations for the "anagram"?

Not looking into the riddle is my way of "staying safe". I don't know much about any of it all. I said I'd concentrate on the gaming side more, but I am looking at the riddle, even if I'm not looking indepth like everyone else.

[Thingfish]

I knew your banning was a joke, hottie, but still... :D

You shouldn't be looking into any Latin translations ;) But you (the general 'you') will need to look out for Latin phrases as well, yes.

[Mitch]

Is it that guy....... David Hasselhoff in disguise?

[friscodude]

Well darn then...so time for another theorization. Seeing how not many have posted on the last line of the second verse, "Affinity only one may mimic", and assuming it stands alone from the rest of the verse, could it imply the Answer is a unique species or something of that sorts? :cry: :confused:

[Thingfish]

Not sure if you got to read the previous riddles thread, Frisco, but it was established that the 'affinity' also refers to the answer beginning a 'paragon of a mute usurper', i.e. the affinity between the two.

[Lenna]

We have come to the conclusion that the answer is a person, although I believe that Thingfish said he'd class the Mages etc as a person.

The character we are looking for is very special as far as Thingfish has said. But if I were to analyse that sentence, I'd assume that it could be in relation to the heir. The heir for all we know could be a diary, statue etc, but they'd have something in common with the Answer. Whether it's a bond of kinship, or just a general similarity between the two. Although I'd lean more towards the similarity side of it, I'd not put it past Thingfish to look at more than one meaning for it.

Anyhoo, I have to finish packing. So I'll do some more on this later <3

[friscodude]

Hehe, nope didnt sort through that 40 page madness, or at least remember all of it :rolleyes2 Well Ill keep lookin in-game I guess :cry:

[Thingfish]

Mwahaha!

;)

[Lenna]

TF if you do that the next time we meet up I seriously will buy you a drink for it! (you have to do it in public ;D)

[Thingfish]

No problem :D I'd be happy to :)

I'll even call you a hottie! :love:

[Lenna]

You do that and you wont live to see the end of the day :D

[Thingfish]

Hehe. You say you don't like it but it's obviously that you secretly do ;) I doubt I've anything to fear even if I do say it. You are a good deal smaller than I am :D

[friscodude]

Well, if you don't mind me saying so, I just finished disk one about 3 minutes ago and throughout the whole of that disk, after talking to most NPC's (I think I missed some in Alexandria), I couldnt find any that could possibly be the Answer, IMO. With my luck I've already missed my chance and the rest of my efforts will be in vain :cry: .

EDIT: Stumbled upon a name given once and only once- the owner of the synth shop in Treno, named Bishop- unfortunately he only has one name but one of the customers in his shop reveals his name, but when talked to again doesnt repeat it. The Bishop character also rents out the tower to Dr. Tot, the "astrologist", so that seemed to fit but I feel that this is a wrong Answer

[Thingfish]

Carry on searching, Frisco :)

Astrology is not the same as astronomy :D

[friscodude]

Hehe, whoopsy my bad but yes I will never give up my quest! :love:

[brother's bigger brother]

you should give money to who ever gets it

[Thingfish]

Or I get money when I'm forced to reveal it when everyone has given up...

:D

[friscodude]

The only way I might give up is if Ive finished the game and havent found anything that resembles the description of the Answer, but thats a maybe :)

[Sir Bahamut]

frisco: Unless you know exactly what to look for, you probably shouldn't be looking in the first place. I mean no offense here; I learned the lesson the hard way during Thingfish's last riddle(the details of which I won't go into now, although Thingfish knows what I'm talking about).

It's good that you're doing your best to help, but as I said, unless you know what to look for, it'll probably not do much good, other than to frustrate you and please Thingfish.

Anyway, back to the last verse. The first thing I have to ask is whether or not my interpretation of the second line is in fact correct. To remind you, I surmised that it is basically a fancy Shakespearean way of saying "We want our troubles(tears and woe) to go away". That seems to be the only option I can see. I can find no indications that it is a direct reference to anything in any case, but I may have missed something.

The second thing is whether the order of the lines is as it should be. What I mean is, could the two lines be construed as saying that "all our tears and woe should go away between conscience caught and more relative grounds", or should it definitely be read in the order it is written in?

Any hints or even answers to these questions will hopefully help me get the gist of what the lines mean.

[friscodude]

I see what you mean, and I will not be surprised if I dont discover anything. But seeing as I have never gotten past Disc Three on this game, the riddle is only an added bonus for playing thru the game and maybe Ill gain a smidgeon of useful knowledge after the completion. :confused:

[Thingfish]

Sir. B : No, it's not a 'fancy Shakespearean way' of saying that sentence you came up with, and you don't need to swap round the order of the lines.

:P

[Aidan]

i still think you made this riddle without having an answer for it.

[Thingfish]

Don't you worry, Aidan, there is very much an answer to it.

I've PM'd you with it...

[Lenna]

If anyone was as dumb as to believe that Thingfish I'd actually have paid you 10 pound for making me laugh so much. *Gets to work analysing FF9 itself ;)*

[Thingfish]

:P

;)

[Thingfish]

Hehe, I was surprised to see The Scotsman newspaper using the word 'interregnum' this morning :

http://sport.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1857522005

Great minds think alike, it seems... ;)

[Thingfish]

Does indeed seem like everyone's given up...

Oh well, best reveal the answer then...

:cry:

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry, Thingfish, but school is kind of getting in the way, as I said. I've not given up by any means. I promise to make another stab at it this weekend.

[Thingfish]

Ok, Sir.B. I have, however, taken you to school all year with this riddle, yet you still need more schooling? :D

[Lenna]

Thingfish, you come on MSN, say you're going to reveal the answer, I'm working pretty hard on it and you KNOW that. You then act like I'm ignoring you, which again you know I'm not, as you know I'm at college. Then when I come home, you're not on MSN, so I cannot tell you without posting on here, that I am generally interested. So far I'm doing pretty and as you can see Sir.B. is still working on it.
Why ruin it for everyone who is working hard just to satisfy you?

Now after a previous conversation with me in MSN, you stated that this riddle isn't meant to be solved, and you believe that you'll have to give the answer away. What's the point in posting the riddle if you arn't going to give people more of a chance to solve it. People are working on it.
The riddle even has it's own thread so you have no time limit whatsoever.

People have dedicated their time to this riddle, and they've worked really damn hard to try and figure it out. Do you really want to put all their hard work to waste? If so, why post the riddle in the first place?

[Thingfish]

Good Lord, woman, you didn't take that seriously did you? :eek: That was naturally a joke, there's no way I'm revealing this riddle until you and Sir.B. are begging me to do so! :D

Don't worry, hottie! :love:

[Lenna]

After walking around half of Edinburgh today you wouldn't be in a joking mood either. :P

Especially when it starts raining.

[Thingfish]

I pity Daniel's arms.

[Lenna]

Haha, Nope, I had to walk from Princes St to the Library with my College Class. We caught the bus from The college to P.St. but it was a bit of a walk, then we walked round the city center for a bit, it started to rain ;_; and because I couldn't be bothered to catch a bus I walked home. It just happened to pour with more rain. Daniel hasn't been anywhere near me since this morning :D I catch the buses etc on my own now unless he's on his way to work hehe.

Anyway, *gets back to playing FF9* My laptop needs a new battery. ;_; I have to have it plugged in so I can type stuff out on Word.

So far I'm up past the evil forest (if you think I'm being slow, remember how much I have to jot down :P)

[Thingfish]

That is indeed impressive speed :D You go girl!

[Mercen-X]

Vengeful death's course

Don't guess de vernal chef

[Thingfish]

That's correct, don't!

[Mercen-X]

:lol: Also, I used an extra "d" and didn't even realize it . . . and there's a "u" missing.

[Llanowar]

I am presently in Lindblum the first time. Have 17 pages of notes so far and nothing fruitful at this time. College is really getting in the way, but I will post when I get the time.

[Thingfish]

:lol: Also, I used an extra "d" and didn't even realize it . . . and there's a "u" missing.

That's why I said not to do it... ;)

Llanny : Good to hear you're working hard...on the riddle :D

[Sir Bahamut]

You're all probably working far harder than necessary, but anyway, I guess it might all help in the long run.

[Thingfish]

Shhh, don't say that, Sir.B. I want them to have worked through the entire game before I evilly reveal the answer, shattering their hopes and dreams and negating any meaning in their lives...

;)

[Sir Bahamut]

Hahaha. Yeah, I can just imagine everyone slitting their wrists once you reveal the answer XD

[Mitch]

I bet the answer is Zidane or something equally pointless :p

[G SpOtZ]

if that was a real bet u'd probably lose money lol, he already mentioned it was a minor character and has given clues.

[Lenna]

Muahaha, I've found something rather interesting! Update on it soon :P

[Thingfish]

Still up! What dedication! :D

[Lenna]

I didn't get much sleep last night TF. This cold was getting the better of me ;_;

[Thingfish]

Sorry to hear that, hon :(

[Sir Bahamut]

A question: Can I solve one real world reference at a time, and then fit them all in with eachother, or is it crucial to do them all at the same time, so to speak?


All tears and woe be in our presence past

Within our presence, all sadness is over?

This sentence is really annoying. It's so simply worded, yet it seems to resist all attempts at being solved. :mad: Have any of my attempts been even close yet?

[Thingfish]

Yes, you can solve separate real-world references and fit them together.

The simplistic translation of that line is indeed 'In our presence, all sadness is over', but you know well enough that there are hidden meanings in the line too :)

[Sir Bahamut]

Hm, this is tough. Can't find anything immediate relating that line to Hamlet. Maybe I should be looking elsewhere?

[Thingfish]

Gwahaha :) You can keep looking here too. :D

[friscodude]

Sorry for not having posted in awhile but I must admit Ive encountered difficulties...at a certain story point on Disc Three the game just...stops. Im trying to fix this, but if it wont work..i guess Ill have ta get another copy of the game :cry: . But Im honored to say I just beat Chrono Cross :p

[G SpOtZ]

Sorry for not having posted in awhile but I must admit Ive encountered difficulties...at a certain story point on Disc Three the game just...stops. Im trying to fix this, but if it wont work..i guess Ill have ta get another copy of the game :cry: . But Im honored to say I just beat Chrono Cross :p
new game + is even more fun. just wait awhile.

as for the riddle i'm still clueless and almost too lazy to even try. lol. infact, i haven't played ffix in a long time so i have no chance of figuring out this riddle unless i play it again

[friscodude]

Well not to get off topic, but i dont think ill be replaying it for awhile, seeing as I got the good ending (using the chrono Cross at the end) first time thru :D

[Mercen-X]

Sorry for not having posted in awhile but I must admit Ive encountered difficulties...at a certain story point on Disc Three the game just...stops. Im trying to fix this, but if it wont work..i guess Ill have ta get another copy of the game
I experienced a similar problem. I couldn't enter Treno from the outside or exit from the inside (two different save points), and the vital bit in Treno couldn't be played. Playing IX on my PS2 worked fine.

[Thingfish]

Ah, my ploy to infect all of your save games so you can't get to the necessary bit worked then!

Mwahaha! :D

[friscodude]

I experienced a similar problem. I couldn't enter Treno from the outside or exit from the inside (two different save points), and the vital bit in Treno couldn't be played. Playing IX on my PS2 worked fine.
Yep thats the spot...but I AM playing on a PS2 so I guess its a faulty disc :cry: :mad:

[Mercen-X]

What www.poets.com had to say about your riddle:


This poems has so much truth... and it is very good .. i am impressed. i have heard a lot of poems but yet this one you have pored your heart into. good job.... i give props to you .. keep it up. - jellybeanhst


This a very detailed and thougth provoking poem- It made me wake up and say Wow! Excellent work on the riddle. A - LyndaVaughn


The poem was wonderful and had plenty of thought.You must have spent a great deal of time working on it. I would say it was worth the time! - LustMeOrLoveMe


That was some damn good wording there. very good job that was just an amazing poem very well written cant give 6 stars but 5 i shall. - musicmansg03


Oh, boy. I had to read it through several times and still
did not get it. I'm glad I'm not the only one. This is quite
the masterpiece I agree. I am anxious to know what it
really means if your friend ever decided to reveal the
secret! - mary mouse


The way you approcahed this was interesting Very well written. Good choice of words. It showed a lot of feeling. Keep writing! - lucypaloma


A Mind Bender for sure. What comes to my mind as I read this is'Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." So I'm not going to spend a lot of time deciphering your riddle. ON the upside, this is full of great old words and I can see you love resurrecting vintage vocabulary. - Lore11

[Thingfish]

I'm flattered, Mercen-X, thanks for letting them see it!

I notice they say 'You'. Did you post it as yourself? :D

Do you have the link to your posting of it?

[Mercen-X]

Oh, boy. I had to read it through several times and still
did not get it. I'm glad I'm not the only one. This is quite
the masterpiece I agree. I am anxious to know what it
really means if your friend ever decided to reveal the
secret! - mary mouseAs you can see, at least one person paid attention to my disclaimer that "my friend, Thingfish" was the author. But I figure the rest of those quote can apply to "you" as well.

[Thingfish]

Yes, thanks for that :) Do you have the link?

[Sir Bahamut]

Man, don't boost his ego or it'll be even harder to get information from him :rolleyes2 ;)

But do they even know that it's a riddle for a Final Fantasy game? =P

[Thingfish]

Ah, jealousy from Sir.B. :) Now I really am flattered, and my ego is quite outsized! :D

[Sir Bahamut]

Nothing get's past your keen glance, eh? :mad: :(

[Thingfish]

I am very thorough. That's how I was able to create this monster! :D

[Mercen-X]

Do you have the link?
The address doesn't change like with these forums. The address is always www.poets.com. If you really want to read these reviews for yourself, you'll just have to join poets.com. Yes, they do have a charge, but there's a way around that. If you choose the yearly charge, they won't make their first charge until the end of your year (from the time you signed up). You can then choose to withdraw from the site without paying, (especially if you haven't written anything for the site). Aside from that, there's nothing I can do. Seriously, the address is the same no matter what screen I'm looking at.

Here's what the poem screen looks like.




Mind Bender

Riddle Master Thingfish

Paragon of a mute usurper, I.
To Occident and Orient adjunct.
Mine avocation: dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct.

O, keen watchman to mine own, falter not,
To vouchsafe designs most astronomic.
Misplaced pursuit doth leave much truth forgot,
Affinity only one may mimic.

In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum.
Contrary to self, mine heir apparent,
Abide, thou dost, foremost, and in tandem.

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.
Yet displace determiner from this source,
A riotous assembly remembered.

Twixt conscience caught and more relative grounds,
All tears and woe be in our presence past.
At helm of craft, portentous death knell sounds.
Recurrent pause, wilt thou begun at last?

Is't a 'What'? Tis that thou thinkest of me?
Is't a 'Who'? Thrice shalt thou deceived be...

by Davneon

Author's Comments:
"This is a riddle created by my friend, Thingfish. No one so far has been able to translate the poem so the answer to the riddle remains a mystery. I would like to invite anyone with knowledge of Iambic Pentameter (or a dictionary and a thesaurus) to try their hand at deciphering this master-piece."




Reviews and Star Ratings for this poem:

"This poems has so much truth... and . . ."
****
Reviewed by: jellybeanhst

"This a very detailed and thougth provoking . . ."
*****
Reviewed by: LyndaVaughn

"The poem was wonderful and had plenty . . ."
****
Reviewed by: LustMeOrLoveMe

"That was some damn good wording there. . . ."
*****
Reviewed by: musicmansg03

"Oh, boy. I had to read . . ."
*****
Reviewed by: mary mouse

"A Mind Bender for sure. What . . ."
****
Reviewed by: Lore11

"The way you approcahed this was . . ."
*****
Reviewed by: lucypaloma

All poems are automatically centered (nothing I can do about it), and I can't change the font or style of the letters, so, it's impossible to make it an identical match.

[Thingfish]

Thanks for that. You can actually register and look through the poems after having reviewed one of them, but you can't read the whole reviews. Nice other poems there, Davneon :D

[Sir Bahamut]

No offense Thingfish, but a lot of that is crap. I mean:



"This poems has so much truth..."
****
Reviewed by: jellybeanhst

No one here, or there, know what the riddle really means in it's entirety, but even if we did, it certainly isn't about "life" and doesn't contain any "truth" beyond Final Fantasy 9. "Though provoking"? BS.

I don't mean to sound jealous or anything here(I have good reasons not to be), but I just couldn't help commenting on some of that crap =P Don't get me wrong though, I really like your riddle and all, but it's not exactly expanding anything but my vocabulary.

[Thingfish]

I would say it's helping expand your knowledge of things like Shakespeare, Iambic Pentameter, Latin etc, or will do by the end of it. It's sad to think you don't feel it's enriched you in other ways than merely your vocabulary.

:(

[Sir Bahamut]

I meant it in no ill way, Thingfish, but we both know that your riddle is about a person in FF9, not the meaning of life. As a riddle, I think it's of the very highest caliber, and your riddles are always very cleverly worded and tough as hell while retaining the poetic quality that many riddles miss.

But I was wrong though, it hasn't just enriched my vocabulary extensively, my knowledge of Shakespeare and other such things has also become greater, but that's besides the point. What I meant was that it's kind of stupid to say some of the stuff those "poet.com" blokes said, which you surely must agree upon. A riddle is a riddle is a riddle; not an epic philosophical tale about life and death =P

[Thingfish]

No offense taken whatsoever, Sir.B, but part of the whole reason for me doing this riddle was also to be able to teach, in an entirely non-condescending way, some people about the existence and the intricacies of subjects which they may not normally encounter. I therefore don't think it is the point that this is merely a riddle.

You are indeed correct that people who don't know both its and FF9s background and come up with the kind of things those people above were saying about it are seeing things in it that were not originally intended. However, that does not mean that, for those people, those meanings are not there. Any poem you read, if it speaks to you through meanings that are personal to you, may not contain any meanings that were originally intended by the poet. That doesn't mean the meanings are any less relevent or important. It all depends on the reader.

[Sir Bahamut]

True, but I'm having trouble seeing how one could interpret your riddle as being all about something relevant outside of what it's intended to portray: a person in FF9. Most likely those guys are just saying that stuff because it makes them look good.

As for your riddle teaching people, I guess besides the obvious learning of the finer points of the english language, the real world references might, I suppose, teach us something. Of course, I can't really comment much on that, since I don't KNOW all the real world references and their relevance, but anyway.

[Thingfish]

You may have trouble seeing that because of your intimate knowledge of it. Who knows what it would mean to others who don't know FF9. But no matter.

Best get searching out those real-world references :D

[Sir Bahamut]

I guess they'll probably be tougher to find though, unless the references are to for instance people with distinctive nicknames(Ivan the Terrible for instance). Speaking of which, "rubicund umbrage" doesn't happen to refer to Stalin, does it?

EDIT: To clarify, Stalin was sometimes referred to as the "red" tsar, and I was trying to link that in witch rubicund umbrage. Another interesting find is this:

http://www.warflag.com/shadow/index.html

Obviously, it is the "Red Shadow" which is of interest here.

[Thingfish]

Very interesting indeed!

Nothing to do with Stalin or Warflag :D

[RideZeeShoopuf]

Aha, I have travelled all the way from Gamefaqs just to have a punt at that damned riddle (Except for the damned 4 day wait to register the account).

So, to start off, I think I'll say Lord Avon for no reason whatsoever. :P

[Thingfish]

Next!

:D

[RideZeeShoopuf]

:mad: Next yourself :p

[Aidan]

it was lord avon? thats pointless...

well, good for you. now we can proceed in either this topic or the other riddle one.

[RideZeeShoopuf]

No, pointless is a status received in FFX-2 that stops the flow of exp. IIRC.

[Thingfish]

it was lord avon? thats pointless...

well, good for you. now we can proceed in either this topic or the other riddle one.

When I said 'Next!', I naturally meant next guess. Of course it's not Lord Avon.

:rolleyes2

[RideZeeShoopuf]

Lol, I got so close, yet so far....... Ok, just far.

[abrojtm]

I already guessed Avon a long time ago (I think).

[friscodude]

Well seeing as I gave up on my game plan Ill be the newest random guesser with....Ipsen or w.e his name is

[nik0tine]

Another random guess with no intellectual merit. Is it card freak gon?