Plot Theories

[BG-57]

Well, we had the not-so-serious theory thread which was fun and all. Since it was suggested that serious theories should be in their own thread, here it is. :greenie:

I'm reposting my theories and feel free to post and discuss your own as well. But please no R=U, that's been discussed plenty in other threads already.


Here are my FFVIII Theories:

1) The GF Eden is a Garden. The evidence is that she looks like an organic version of a Garden. Note the upper disc. Also the garden of Eden was the GF's namesake.

2) The painting puzzle in Ultimecia's castle refers to Diablos. The solution involves a Messenger and Diablos' attack is called Dark Messenger. If the garden that the puzzle refers to is Eden, then Diablos may represent the devil that disguised itself a serpent and corrupted man. Quite an appropriate theme for Ultimecia.

3) The GFs are future versions of the main characters. This is based on a passing resemblance between some of the main characters and some of the GFs. I really doubt that this one is true, but it's fun to think about.

4) It occured to me but to other people independantly as well that Tiamat may be a corrupted future Bahamut. The major evidence is the similar attacks (Mega Flare versus Dark Flare) and the identical character design in different colors. Again, this is unlikely since Tiamat is traditionally a boss monster quite different from Bahamut in other FFs. For one thing, it usually has several heads, like a hydra.

Here's my elaboration of specific master-pet pairings:


Squall -> Griever
Rinoa -> Shiva
Zell -> Ifrit
Selphie -> Carbuncle
Quistis -> Siren
Irvine -> Alexander

Seifer -> Diablos
Raijin -> Quetzecoatl
Fujin -> Pandemonia

[Christmas]

Well, I was half way through when the thread closed. Well




The painting puzzle in Ultimecia's castle refers to Diablos. The solution involves a Messenger and Diablos' attack is called Dark Messenger. If the garden that the puzzle refers to is Eden, then Diablos may represent the devil that disguised itself a serpent and corrupted man. Quite an appropriate theme for Ultimecia.

Regarding the paintings, this is what i interpret the last time in some older threads.



INTERVIGILIUM (Sleep) - The sleep magic
VIVIDARIUM (Garden) - The Garden of SeeD
VIATOR (Messenger) - Diablo's dark messenger attack

Big Picture: In A Garden Sleeps A Messenger:

Diablos sleeps inside the magical lamp which is given in Balamb garden,


Anyone can have their interpretatons of their own like future Esthar having his but since there is nothing much to verify it, I can't say much about those pictures only that it make the boss appear that's all.

I wonder if anyone have another interpretations wish to share.


The GF Eden is a Garden. The evidence is that she looks like an organic version of a Garden. Note the upper disc. Also the garden of Eden was the GF's namesake

Here is something I found out about Eden(for references):


The Garden of Eden story recounts how God created Adam and Eve, commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and how they were expelled from the garden after they disobeyed Him, having been tempted by a serpent, and ate the fruit. As part of the Expulsion, cherubim and a flaming sword were stationed at the entrance to the garden, in order to prevent man from returning and eating from the Tree of Life.


Could the sword mean the sword wielding Ultima weapon that is guarding Eden itself.


Others point out that the world of Eden's time was destroyed during Noah's Flood and it is therefore impossible to place the Garden anywhere in post-flood geography. There is also an attempt to tie this with the mystical sunken land of Atlantis.

If it is flood so it could possible be sunken and you find Eden deep within the sea with a sword wielding monster guarding/having it.

Just take that as references and not take it too seriously.


The GFs are future versions of the main characters. This is based on a passing resemblance between some of the main characters and some of the GFs. I really doubt that this one is true, but it's fun to think about

I doubt it too but do Rinoa seem "cold" to you to describe her as Shiva?


4) It occured to me but to other people independantly as well that Tiamat may be a corrupted future Bahamut. The major evidence is the similar attacks (Mega Flare versus Dark Flare) and the identical character design in different colors. Again, this is unlikely since Tiamat is traditionally a boss monster quite different from Bahamut in other FFs. For one thing, it usually has several heads, like a hydra.

Again, some foods for thought on Bahamut and Tiamat:


Tiamat & Bahamut
The same edition of Dungeons & Dragons that introduced Bahamut also introduced his antithesis. This opposite was named Tiamat, the Chromatic Dragon, and Queen of Evil Dragons, as well as the mother and deity of all evil dragons. This pairing features prominently in the deity lore of the game, with Tiamat even being featured in the short-lived television cartoon version of the game.

This pairing of Tiamat and Bahamut as antithesis of each other has since recurred in other fantasy settings, with the most notable recent example occurring in Final Fantasy VIII. In each instance, Bahamut is always portrayed as benevolent, while Tiamat is portrayed as malevolent, largely in keeping with their historical origins.


Just take it as references.

I reckon that if Tiamat is the future version of Bahamut, then it could mean that Squall missed Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center and Ultimecia got Bahamut and turned it to Tiamat.

But I dun really think it happen this way.

I believe that there are other GF that exist instead those Squall had.

EDIT: Just something I just remembered.


Wasn't Griever created from the whole party's minds? I seem to recall Squall of SeeD mentioning something about that. Apparently, Ultimecia talks about creating the ultimate GF "from your minds", or somesuch, in either the original Japanese or in the European translations.

Since Greiver can be created from the whole party mind, we can had another deduction.

Bahamut is known as a powerful GF and as long as it concern, SeeDs most probably know it.

SeeDs attack Ultimecia's castle and Ultimecia just draw it out from the SeeD's mind like how she created the Ultimate GF. She draw it out and created other GF and then corrupt it to turn it into a monster as stated in the scan info?

[BG-57]

INTERVIGILIUM (Sleep) - The sleep magic
VIVIDARIUM (Garden) - The Garden of SeeD
VIATOR (Messenger) - Diablo's dark messenger attack

Big Picture: In A Garden Sleeps A Messenger:

Diablos sleeps inside the magical lamp which is given in Balamb garden,

Anyone can have their interpretatons of their own like future Esthar having his but since there is nothing much to verify it, I can't say much about those pictures only that it make the boss appear that's all.

I wonder if anyone have another interpretations wish to share.


That's a good literal interpretation of the puzzle. The link to the garden of Eden is more allegorical. I'll admit I have a weakness for allegories, but the garden being Balamb is more likely.



Here is something I found out about Eden(for references):

The Garden of Eden story recounts how God created Adam and Eve, commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and how they were expelled from the garden after they disobeyed Him, having been tempted by a serpent, and ate the fruit. As part of the Expulsion, cherubim and a flaming sword were stationed at the entrance to the garden, in order to prevent man from returning and eating from the Tree of Life.

Could the sword mean the sword wielding Ultima weapon that is guarding Eden itself.

Others point out that the world of Eden's time was destroyed during Noah's Flood and it is therefore impossible to place the Garden anywhere in post-flood geography. There is also an attempt to tie this with the mystical sunken land of Atlantis.

If it is flood so it could possible be sunken and you find Eden deep within the sea with a sword wielding monster guarding/having it.

Just take that as references and not take it too seriously.


The FF's are replete with biblical/historical/mythological references, although usually not consistently.



I doubt it too but do Rinoa seem "cold" to you to describe her as Shiva?


Only in the sense of color. The color palettes of both Shiva and Rinoa are dominated by cool blues. Ironically Rinoa is actually a fairly warm person. There are few clues to Shiva's personality since she doesn't utter a word, unlike GF's the party has to fight to recruit. In contrast, I have very clear ideas about the attitudes of say, Ifrit or Diablos.




Tiamat & Bahamut
The same edition of Dungeons & Dragons that introduced Bahamut also introduced his antithesis. This opposite was named Tiamat, the Chromatic Dragon, and Queen of Evil Dragons, as well as the mother and deity of all evil dragons. This pairing features prominently in the deity lore of the game, with Tiamat even being featured in the short-lived television cartoon version of the game.

This pairing of Tiamat and Bahamut as antithesis of each other has since recurred in other fantasy settings, with the most notable recent example occurring in Final Fantasy VIII. In each instance, Bahamut is always portrayed as benevolent, while Tiamat is portrayed as malevolent, largely in keeping with their historical origins.

Just take it as references.

I reckon that if Tiamat is the future version of Bahamut, then it could mean that Squall missed Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center and Ultimecia got Bahamut and turned it to Tiamat.

But I dun really think it happen this way.

I believe that there are other GF that exist instead those Squall had.

For some reason the character designers got a little lazy with the bosses. Tiamat and Bahamut are essentially the same character design with different paint jobs as are Ultima and Omega Weapons. The resemblence between these bosses naturally leads to speculation that they are related somehow.

[Christmas]

The FF's are replete with biblical/historical/mythological references, although usually not consistently.

So I kinda figure why Ultima weapon came with the sword(taking that as a references) but why it is Cloud's sword remain a mystery and also


For some reason the character designers got a little lazy with the bosses. Tiamat and Bahamut are essentially the same character design with different paint jobs as are Ultima and Omega Weapons. The resemblence between these bosses naturally leads to speculation that they are related somehow.

if we remove the sword from Ultima weapon, it will just make another Omega weapon with a different paint job.

And since FF VIII is related to time travelling, other might relate Omega weapon as an evolved version of Ultima Weapon.

But unlike FF VII, WEAPONs do not play a big role in the part of the storyline so most likely their designs is not taken into serious considerations unlike FF VII, which each WEAPONs had an unique design.

But look at the references in FFX and FFX-2, there is Omega Weapon, Ultima Weapon and Nemesis/Paragon.

Both using the same weapon design but different paint job. But this time they specific them as a species of WEAPONs. I guess this species system in FF X and FF X-2 avoid a lot of confusion.

PS: I edited my first post.

[BG-57]

So I kinda figure why Ultima weapon came with the sword(taking that as a references) but why it is Cloud's sword remain a mystery and also


I actually started a thread asking about that. While a lot of the responses were attempts at humor, a serious suggestion was that it wasn't the FFVII Ultima sword the FFVIII Ultima monster carried, but it was simply the FFVIII Ultima sword. If we look at FFVI for a moment they had two Ultima (Atma) weapons: a monster and a sword. So in many of the incarnations of Ultima include both the monster and the sword. It just happened that the Ultima sword looks the same in FFVII and FFVIII.



if we remove the sword from Ultima weapon, it will just make another Omega weapon with a different paint job.

And since FF VIII is related to time travelling, other might relate Omega weapon as an evolved version of Ultima Weapon.

But unlike FF VII, WEAPONs do not play a big role in the part of the storyline so most likely their designs is not taken into serious considerations unlike FF VII, which each WEAPONs had an unique design.

But look at the references in FFX and FFX-2, there is Omega Weapon, Ultima Weapon and Nemesis/Paragon.

Both using the same weapon design but different paint job. But this time they specific them as a species of WEAPONs. I guess this species system in FF X and FF X-2 avoid a lot of confusion.



The evolution of Ultima Weapon into Omega Weapon doesn't pose a problem if Ultima Weapon is spared in the present. But if Omega Weapon is a future version of Ultima Weapon, it can't have been killed in the past. It's only possible if they are reversed, that is Ultima is Omega's future self, since the party can defeat Ultima first.

I may be misinterpreting time compression here of course. But if it incorperates the present time, then it could conceivably incorperate the past before.



Since Greiver can be created from the whole party mind, we can had another deduction.

Bahamut is known as a powerful GF and as long as it concern, SeeDs most probably know it.

SeeDs attack Ultimecia's castle and Ultimecia just draw it out from the SeeD's mind like how she created the Ultimate GF. She draw it out and created other GF and then corrupt it to turn it into a monster as stated in the scan info?


I wondered if that would explain the origin of other GF's: created out of pure will. Maybe by sorceresses of the past, possibly.

[Christmas]

I actually started a thread asking about that. While a lot of the responses were attempts at humor, a serious suggestion was that it wasn't the FFVII Ultima sword the FFVIII Ultima monster carried, but it was simply the FFVIII Ultima sword. If we look at FFVI for a moment they had two Ultima (Atma) weapons: a monster and a sword. So in many of the incarnations of Ultima include both the monster and the sword. It just happened that the Ultima sword looks the same in FFVII and FFVIII.

Not all Ultima weapons in he FF series came with a package of a sword and a monster. The incarnations sorta break in FF IX.

Zidane's Ultima weapon was dug from the ground.

In the Japanese version of FFX, Tidus' Celestial Weapon is called the Ultima Weapon, although the name was changed for reasons unknown to Caladbolg for the North American and European localizations and also the Ultima weapon in Omega Ruins had no relationships with the sword.

But according to the info about Eden regarding the "flame sword guarding the entrance". I will reckon that Square gave Ultima weapon a sword so as to based on the tale.

So if Ultima Weapon need a sword. And Cloud's sword is one of the most remembered model of the sword "Ultima Weapon" since there isn't much to say about the model of the sword "Atma Weapon" in FF VI.

Also, like I stated before, since the "sword" just bear a minor significant reference value to the mythical legends without too big a role in the plot, Square simply took the model of Cloud's sword and used in for Ultima Weapon and at other point of view, we can see it as a crossover like how Rikku have Auron's masamune when transformed into her Dark Knight dressphere.



The evolution of Ultima Weapon into Omega Weapon doesn't pose a problem if Ultima Weapon is spared in the present. But if Omega Weapon is a future version of Ultima Weapon, it can't have been killed in the past. It's only possible if they are reversed, that is Ultima is Omega's future self, since the party can defeat Ultima first.

I may be misinterpreting time compression here of course. But if it incorperates the present time, then it could conceivably incorperate the past before.

Note that in FF VI, you fight Atma Weapon and Atma later in the game as an optional boss. Both Atma and Atma Weapon look the same and only with different paint job.

When you fight Atma, he mentioned something:

"Left here since birth....."

It is implied that it is left here in Kefka tower since it is born. And since Kefka Tower existed after the world is undone, so it imply that Atma didn't exist before Atma Weapon's time.

When you fight Atma Weapon he mentioned about:

"My name is Atma... I am pure energy, and as ancient as the cosmos"

Can energy be destroyed? Energy can be transfered and convert into other form of energy.

I reckon that the energy that made Atma weapon sorta converted into other form of energy which made Atma.

So the same might apply to Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon in FF VIII since their is this incarnation of sword and monster going on and it started in FF VI itself.

But try not to take it too seriously since this is still just a game and the idea I got might not really apply to a game.

But overall, I guess it is just Square didn't bother much to give it a new design.




I wondered if that would explain the origin of other GF's: created out of pure will. Maybe by sorceresses of the past, possibly.


Maybe not.Because Ultimecia created Griever out of Squall's mind because it is the most powerful GF Squall thought it would be. So Squall know the existence of a GF and Ultimecia created it out of his mind.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/Griever.jpg

Here are some GF related info:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/Unknowns2/GF.jpg

So, before Dr Odine discover about GF, in other people mind, they have no idea what is GF so sorceress might not be able to create something that isn't in their mind at all.

[BG-57]

Not all Ultima weapons in he FF series came with a package of a sword and a monster. The incarnations sorta break in FF IX.

Zidane's Ultima weapon was dug from the ground.

In the Japanese version of FFX, Tidus' Celestial Weapon is called the Ultima Weapon, although the name was changed for reasons unknown to Caladbolg for the North American and European localizations and also the Ultima weapon in Omega Ruins had no relationships with the sword.


I forgot to mention the FFVII Ultima Monster drops the FFVII Ultima sword. While the Ultima sword and monster are not always linked they are in FFVI, VII, and VIII.



But according to the info about Eden regarding the "flame sword guarding the entrance". I will reckon that Square gave Ultima weapon a sword so as to based on the tale.

So if Ultima Weapon need a sword. And Cloud's sword is one of the most remembered model of the sword "Ultima Weapon" since there isn't much to say about the model of the sword "Atma Weapon" in FF VI.

Also, like I stated before, since the "sword" just bear a minor significant reference value to the mythical legends without too big a role in the plot, Square simply took the model of Cloud's sword and used in for Ultima Weapon and at other point of view, we can see it as a crossover like how Rikku have Auron's masamune when transformed into her Dark Knight dressphere.


The flaming sword reference is an interesting point. Square certainly borrows heavily from bibilical sources, among others.

It was interesting that the Atma sword looked like a lightsaber. But later versions give it a flat edge.

I suppose if Cloud can traverse between the worlds of FFVII and Tactics, then his sword can make a similar trek.



Note that in FF VI, you fight Atma Weapon and Atma later in the game as an optional boss. Both Atma and Atma Weapon look the same and only with different paint job.

When you fight Atma, he mentioned something:

"Left here since birth....."

It is implied that it is left here in Kefka tower since it is born. And since Kefka Tower existed after the world is undone, so it imply that Atma didn't exist before Atma Weapon's time.

When you fight Atma Weapon he mentioned about:

"My name is Atma... I am pure energy, and as ancient as the cosmos"

Can energy be destroyed? Energy can be transfered and convert into other form of energy.

I reckon that the energy that made Atma weapon sorta converted into other form of energy which made Atma.

So the same might apply to Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon in FF VIII since their is this incarnation of sword and monster going on and it started in FF VI itself.

But try not to take it too seriously since this is still just a game and the idea I got might not really apply to a game.

But overall, I guess it is just Square didn't bother much to give it a new design.


So you're suggesting that the party may have dispersed Utima Weapon instead of slaying it, where it reformed into Omega during time compression. It's possible, and Omega does first appear as a nebulous cloud of evil that materializes after you ring the bells. Both seem to be able to change from a noncoporeal to coporeal state.



Maybe not.Because Ultimecia created Griever out of Squall's mind because it is the most powerful GF Squall thought it would be. So Squall know the existence of a GF and Ultimecia created it out of his mind.

So, before Dr Odine discover about GF, in other people mind, they have no idea what is GF so sorceress might not be able to create something that isn't in their mind at all.

Okay, so any ideas about where the non-Griever GF's came from?

[G SpOtZ]

oh man. i'm not intelligent enough to keep up with this. but i can try. so lets see, apparently griever came from squalls mind. but in his mind, it's the strongest right? and Bee gee fitty seven asks where the other gfs came from. i'm thinking they simply came from others' minds. what one person might think is powerful, may not be so powerful to someone else.

but what i've been really thinking is....
did the designers want to make us think about this so hard? do you think the designers would complicate a game so much that only people who are willing to think about it hard enough would understand the "ACTUAL" plot? i can't say this for 100%, but i'm pretty sure that the game wasn't supposed to be this complicated until people started thinking too hard.

[blackline77]

yeah g-spotz is right. u guys think so hard into it, what i think is it is probably the most straight forward ff of the series.

[Christmas]

oh man. i'm not intelligent enough to keep up with this. but i can try. so lets see, apparently griever came from squalls mind. but in his mind, it's the strongest right? and Bee gee fitty seven asks where the other gfs came from. i'm thinking they simply came from others' minds. what one person might think is powerful, may not be so powerful to someone else.

Not really. See my previous posts. People doesn't know about the existence of GF until Dr Odine discovered them. So sorceress can't create something that wasn't in people mind before Dr Odine's discovery.


but what i've been really thinking is....
did the designers want to make us think about this so hard? do you think the designers would complicate a game so much that only people who are willing to think about it hard enough would understand the "ACTUAL" plot? i can't say this for 100%, but i'm pretty sure that the game wasn't supposed to be this complicated until people started thinking too hard.

I dun think what we are discussing now really affect the actual plot much and just some interesting fact to knows. :)

Like this one:

"MAGIC

A special power that can only be used by Sorceresses. The magic that is used by human beings is referred to as para-magic. Discovered by Doctor Odine during the course of his Sorceress research, para-magic via junctioning GF is used by Balamb Garden. While it is possible to use para-magic without prior training, without equipping a GF one's power is limited physically, and cannot develop beyond normal parameters. (#) However, in order to create forces capable of fighting without having to rely on the power of the GFs during combat, Galbadia Garden has instituted areas with special anti-magic force fields similar to those used in the D-District Prison."

I guess this solve the mystery of why Galbadian soldiers can use magic without GF but will knowing this affect or let us understand the actual plot much? BTW, that info is from FF VIII Ultimania.


I suppose if Cloud can traverse between the worlds of FFVII and Tactics, then his sword can make a similar trek.

Come to think of it, maybe during FF VIII times, Cloud is already pretty famous among gamers so Square decided pick to use his sword for Ultima Weapon?


So you're suggesting that the party may have dispersed Utima Weapon instead of slaying it, where it reformed into Omega during time compression. It's possible, and Omega does first appear as a nebulous cloud of evil that materializes after you ring the bells. Both seem to be able to change from a noncoporeal to coporeal state.

I guess this is a pretty interesting references I took from FF VI and at the same time might just a create a theory for Atma weapon and Atma of FF VI. :p

Anyway, there isn't a way to really prove it so I gather my deductions as:

(1) The WEAPONs did not play a big role in the plot so Square just use the same model for the two of them.

(2) The energy theory about Atma and Atma Weapon.

(3) Ultima weapon really did evolve?

(4) They are like the same "species" as like in FF X-2?


Okay, so any ideas about where the non-Griever GF's came from?

Since Dr Odine started as a monster researcher, he might have discover GF through the monster. Whether the GF is the monster itself or something from the monster we never know.

But like in the game, you can draw GF from monsters, so GF might be something inside monsters in FF VIII all along?

Anyway, maybe the Ultimania can answer some of the questions here.

[BG-57]

Perhaps these aren't really plot theories, but you're welcome to add some.



but what i've been really thinking is....
did the designers want to make us think about this so hard? do you think the designers would complicate a game so much that only people who are willing to think about it hard enough would understand the "ACTUAL" plot? i can't say this for 100%, but i'm pretty sure that the game wasn't supposed to be this complicated until people started thinking too hard.


In any popular work, there is a lot of speculation about details that are introduced but not elaborated on. Naturally no creator can explain all the details, so failing direct information (like from interviews) the fans can try to reconstruct the influences and intentions based on the work itself. Kind of like putting togther a jigsaw puzzle with most of the pieces missing.



Since Dr Odine started as a monster researcher, he might have discover GF through the monster. Whether the GF is the monster itself or something from the monster we never know.

But like in the game, you can draw GF from monsters, so GF might be something inside monsters in FF VIII all along?

Anyway, maybe the Ultimania can answer some of the questions here.


The GF's can't be intergral to the monsters they reside in since each major drawable GF resides into two different monsters (one of each in Ultimecia's time). While the time compression can explain the temporal paradox, it doesn't explain the spatial one.

Maybe GF's are composed of spirit energy that only rarely can assume coporeal form (which would explain how they escaped notice for so long).

Also Ultimecia had to exercise control to keep Griever from vanishing, which means artifical GF's can't persist unaided unlike natural ones.

I think the distinction between magic and para-magic is just semantic fudging by the creators. Essetially para-magic is the collectable spells you can stockpile like so many potions, while magic is anything a sorceress can cast without need of GFs. A pretty arbitrary distinction.

[SeeDRankLou]

Just because GFs were only recently discovered by Dr. Odine doesn't mean that they haven't existed for who knows how long. Dr. Odine's research just probably led him to discover a way that GFs can be junctioned or what not.


But like in the game, you can draw GF from monsters, so GF might be something inside monsters in FF VIII all along?

The GF's can't be intergral to the monsters they reside in since each major drawable GF resides into two different monsters (one of each in Ultimecia's time).
Well, outside of Ultimecia's Castle, there are only three GFs that you draw from monsters. Ultimecia's Castle is weird and time compression is going on so who knows how those monsters got their respective GFs, but the others might be explainable. Carbuncle and Siren are both rather weak GFs, relying on status effects for their summons rather than much of any power. So it's possible that Elvoret and Iguions somehow junctioned (or maybe ingested) these GFs. You get Eden in the Deep Sea Research Center, research=anything's possible, the researchers could have put Eden inside Ultima Weapon themselves, who knows. Also to note, every human/shumi that you can draw a GF from is somehow connected to Balamb Garden:

Leviathan from NORG
Pandemonia from Fujin
Alexander from Edea

so all of those GFs are more than likely juntioned to those people. And every other GF you get you have to fight, and then they agree to join you. I would conclude that GFs are simply monsters, but they have some intelligence that would allow them to fight with you instead of the innate hostility that all other monsters have against humans. I don't really know beyond that.

[Christmas]

Iguions somehow junctioned (or maybe ingested) these GFs

Considering the fact the Iguions are just freshly created by Edea out of the two statues, it will seems rather strange that they find Carbuncle so fast and immediately junction it to themselves.


I would conclude that GFs are simply monsters, but they have some intelligence that would allow them to fight with you instead of the innate hostility that all other monsters have against humans.

In Tiamat's scan info it said " Used to be a GF. Became a monster under Ultimecia's power"

So if it is just simply monsters, why were it say that is became a monster after whatever Ultimecia done to it since it is just a monster with some intelligence?

But then again, "From a GF to become a monster" might mean to be able to junction it to can't be junctioned.

Still, why can it cause a loss of memories to whoever that junction it if they are just monsters?


Maybe GF's are composed of spirit energy that only rarely can assume coporeal form (which would explain how they escaped notice for so long).

But judging from the game, there is a lot of GF that assume corporeal form like all the time in the game. Those are the one that you fought like Brothers, Diablo , Bahamut...etc.

If they rarely assume coporeal from, why do they only assume corporeal form when they face Squall and CO?

EDIT:You know, it is mentioned that:


Irvine: How about this? ...The price we pay for using the GF. The GF provides us its power. But the GF makes its own place inside our brain...

Quistis: So you're saying that the area is where our memories are
stored?

So we all know that GF will make a place inside the brain of the person who junction it. It will make the person lose his memories.

So it might have something to do with the mind like Grevier?

Something to note:

You can draw GF from monsters
You can draw GF from other peoples
You fight GF so as to get them to join you.
Dr Odine is the one that discovered GF and he used to research monsters before that.

So it is a possible like BG-57 said, it can be some soft of energies.
But it is in corporeal form most of the time and pass off as normal monsters before Dr Odine discover their potential.

Some other look for a host(mainly monster....?) and then change into incorporeal form and reside inside the host's brain as some soft of energy waves/force resulting in a loss of memories but as a result enchance the power of the host.

The ability to junction a GF might only be avaliable after Dr Odine made the discovery and he created a method of junctioning the GF.

So before Dr Odine's time, people might have met GF and defeat it but couldn't junction it so it is deemed as normal monster.

But I dun really think it is the way though, there might be some flaws here and there. I can't really conclude it.

[BG-57]

You can also get Quetzecoatl and Shiva from the classroom computer, and that would suggest they can exist as energy, perhaps electricity in this case.

They can certainly be contained as Diablos was. I doubt the cursed lamp was the same size as he was. And Bahamut was in the blue core at DSRC.

Other GFs seem to exist mainly in material form, like Ifrit or Brothers.

Another point is they are summons which means most of time they do not appear unless called on by a junctioned character.

So that would suggest that GF's can easily shift between coporeal and noncopreal forms.

Ultima and Omega seem to behave like Bahamut, exisiting primarily as energy and materializing only to fight.

[Christmas]

You can also get Quetzecoatl and Shiva from the classroom computer, and that would suggest they can exist as energy, perhaps electricity in this case.

They can certainly be contained as Diablos was. I doubt the cursed lamp was the same size as he was. And Bahamut was in the blue core at DSRC.

Other GFs seem to exist mainly in material form, like Ifrit or Brothers.

Another point is they are summons which means most of time they do not appear unless called on by a junctioned character.

So that would suggest that GF's can easily shift between coporeal and noncopreal forms.

Ultima and Omega seem to behave like Bahamut, exisiting primarily as energy and materializing only to fight.

Well, it did kinda fit in pretty well I will say.

Anything more to share?

[SeeDRankLou]

You can also get Quezacotl and Shiva from the classroom computer, and that would suggest they can exist as energy, perhaps electricity in this case.
I think that those GFs were already Squall's (they were registered as his) and you just can't access them via the menu until you name them in the game. To note, if you don't get them via Squall's desk you will get them when you talk to Quistis by the gate. She will say something about seeing what GFs you have.

[BG-57]

Well, it did kinda fit in pretty well I will say.

Anything more to share?

I haven't come up with any other theories, but I'm sure other people have.



I think that those GFs were already Squall's (they were registered as his) and you just can't access them via the menu until you name them in the game. To note, if you don't get them via Squall's desk you will get them when you talk to Quistis by the gate. She will say something about seeing what GFs you have.


Even if they don't exist as electrical energy they certainly can turn noncoporeal.

What's interesting is they can be contained organically (monsters, possibly the players) and inorganically (cursed lamp, DSRC core). Some, like Doomtrain, can be summoned with the necessary material components.

[Future Esthar]

So,you agree that the site was floated anyway.
If you remember well,there was a man on Trabia Garden who is allways sleeping and adreaming he was a Seed.Through his dream we can discover about GF Tomberry king.
This is a possible meaning of the inner paint.

[G SpOtZ]

So,you agree that the site was floated anyway.
If you remember well,there was a man on Trabia Garden who is allways sleeping and adreaming he was a Seed.Through his dream we can discover about GF Tomberry king.
This is a possible meaning of the inner paint.
i'm sorry, i didn't get that. at all. specify please?

EDIT: wait nvm, don't specify. i don't want a whole nother crazy theory argument to start up.

[Future Esthar]

Gspotz,point all the flaws on the line=holographic wall theory if you were able to do (you will not).

I was referring to the main picture on Ulti´s castle.
A possible interpretation is that it refers to the youngster on Trabia Garden who keeps sleeping and dreaming he is a Seed.

[G SpOtZ]

can u show screenshots please?

[BG-57]

If you remember well,there was a man on Trabia Garden who is allways sleeping and adreaming he was a Seed.Through his dream we can discover about GF Tomberry king.
This is a possible meaning of the inner paint.

Wait, are you posting the painting interpretation as an alternative to the Diablos interpretation?


So,you agree that the site was floated anyway.

And what was floated? I don't understand where in this thread anything along those lines was mentioned.

[Future Esthar]

It´s the picture "In the Garden Sleeps a Messenger"
One don´t needs pictures but words to interpret it.

[BG-57]

I see the sleeping in the garden part.

But how is the man in Trabia a messenger? And what does the Tonberry King to do with the painting puzzle?

[Future Esthar]

Through the man the characters came to know about the mysterious GF Tomberry.

[BG-57]

Oh, so you mean he was mumbling clues about TK in his sleep?

[Christmas]

So you are saying the guy that is sleeping in the garden is the messenger that tell you about the messenge on Tonberry King?

Ok, Logical interpretation.

[Future Esthar]

Your interpretation is also good and there could be many.
But do you know,I am not really satisfied with these.I think there is a really deep storyline meaning to that picture.Not just something about battle items or GFs.

[Skyblade]

Did anyone else notice that the thread's meaningful discussion vanished as soon as Future Esthar started posting?

Anyway, as to the GFs. Certainly, they are incorporeal for the majority of the time. You couldn't take Eden into the Deling Sewers without wiping out the city if they were always in a physical form.

In a side note here, I would like to present a theory of my own on the GF. GF don't actually cause memory loss. If they did, Squall and company wouldn't have remembered the events of their past even when reminded by Irvine. The GF instead reside in the portion of your mind that allows your brain to access your memories consciously. Which is why they are still able to recall the memories once they are brought up by someone else.

[BG-57]

It's certainly possible considering that the brain is a soft network of connections between nodes that store information. Often in brain injury the connections are severed, so the information is still present but inaccessable.

The central nervous sytem uses electricity to communicate, so if the GF's can exist as energy they could certainly reside within a neural network.

[Laugh at face of Danger]

The GF Eden is a Garden. The evidence is that she looks like an organic version of a Garden. Note the upper disc. Also the garden of Eden was the GF's namesake
that is incredibly good theology, and very well thought out

[HunterFlamebrow]

^ What he said. The "Eden is a GARDEN" idea is most certainly the most plausible thing on this page. There are too many coincidances for it not to be planted by the designers. All the other theorizing on the nature of GF is unnessesary, I think. Most of the stuff I've read, while creative and more than I could've ever come up with, has no indications of being true in the game other than "well, there's nothing saying it's NOT true."

Take Ultimecia's guardians (all the annoying bosses in her castle, remember?) all having GF's to draw. I honestly believe that the designers put this feature in the game to help out players who had not gotten many GF's the first time through -- you'll note that ALL the GF's are possible to get on the 4th disc (except maybe Diablos, I'm not sure if you can get him in UC if you didn't grab the lamp from Cid). But I digress.

Kudos on the Eden/Garden theory, to BG-57 and Unknowns. You've made me believe it.

[Future Esthar]

That´s a good possibility but consider this possibility I thought about now.

Zell invited our characters to sleep on his room on Balamb.

They dreamed about their childhood.

As soon as they reach Trabia Garden Zell start pondering if the Matron he sees on his dream was Edea.

Irvine knows is the right time to tell them about their childhood and will do it to please Selphie.

Quistis had dreamed about their childhood when Ellone was still at the orphanage.

She knows that Edea was with Ellone at the orphanage and wondered that there were something more to Edea´s wrath than world domination.
Selphie talks about her "dream" at the cemetery.
Squall is the one who keeps his thoughts concealed.
And finally,Rinoa decided she should start it all.
Don´t believe me?
We know Squal dreamed about his childhood at least two times.
First time they went to the dream world:
1-They talked about they dream
2-They realized they had the same dream when one of them talked about it.
The same proccess goes here.When Irvine talks about it everyone recognizes it.

[BG-57]

that is incredibly good theology, and very well thought out


Thanks. :)

I wonder why it took it so long to occur to me though.


^ What he said. The "Eden is a GARDEN" idea is most certainly the most plausible thing on this page. There are too many coincidances for it not to be planted by the designers. All the other theorizing on the nature of GF is unnessesary, I think. Most of the stuff I've read, while creative and more than I could've ever come up with, has no indications of being true in the game other than "well, there's nothing saying it's NOT true."

Take Ultimecia's guardians (all the annoying bosses in her castle, remember?) all having GF's to draw. I honestly believe that the designers put this feature in the game to help out players who had not gotten many GF's the first time through -- you'll note that ALL the GF's are possible to get on the 4th disc (except maybe Diablos, I'm not sure if you can get him in UC if you didn't grab the lamp from Cid). But I digress.


Ah, but you're discussing the external logic of the game while we were discussing the internal logic of the game. I know drawable GF's in the bosses are for the convenience of the player, but I'm interested if it can be reconciled to the plot and storyline.

Or as Phil Farrad would say: 'I don't deal in reality'. :p


^
Kudos on the Eden/Garden theory, to BG-57 and Unknowns. You've made me believe it.

Again, thanks. :)



That´s a good possibility but consider this possibility I thought about now.

Zell invited our characters to sleep on his room on Balamb.

They dreamed about their childhood.

As soon as they reach Trabia Garden Zell start pondering if the Matron he sees on his dream was Edea.

Irvine knows is the right time to tell them about their childhood and will do it to please Selphie.

Quistis had dreamed about their childhood when Ellone was still at the orphanage.

She knows that Edea was with Ellone at the orphanage and wondered that there were something more to Edea´s wrath than world domination.
Selphie talks about her "dream" at the cemetery.
Squall is the one who keeps his thoughts concealed.
And finally,Rinoa decided she should start it all.
Don´t believe me?
We know Squal dreamed about his childhood at least two times.
First time they went to the dream world:
1-They talked about they dream
2-They realized they had the same dream when one of them talked about it.
The same proccess goes here.When Irvine talks about it everyone recognizes it.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. :confused:

[Christmas]

That´s a good possibility but consider this possibility I thought about now.

Zell invited our characters to sleep on his room on Balamb.

They dreamed about their childhood.

As soon as they reach Trabia Garden Zell start pondering if the Matron he sees on his dream was Edea.

Irvine knows is the right time to tell them about their childhood and will do it to please Selphie.

Quistis had dreamed about their childhood when Ellone was still at the orphanage.
She knows that Edea was with Ellone at the orphanage and wondered that there were something more to Edea´s wrath than world domination.
Selphie talks about her "dream" at the cemetery.
Squall is the one who keeps his thoughts concealed.
And finally,Rinoa decided she should start it all.
Don´t believe me?
We know Squal dreamed about his childhood at least two times.
First time they went to the dream world:
1-They talked about they dream
2-They realized they had the same dream when one of them talked about it.
The same proccess goes here.When Irvine talks about it everyone recognizes it.

So, they all dreamed of their childhood at Zell's house and all keep quiet until Irvine break the ice. And when Ellone was still at the oprhanage, Quistis is still a kid so what is the point of that?

Now, what is your conclusion then?

[Future Esthar]

You misunderstood me.
I said that Quistis dreamed on Balamb about the time they were children.She dreamed that Ellone was with them.
There is no conclusion.This is a conclusion itself.

[Christmas]

So, what's the point of that theory of yours? Eventually the outcome is Irvine breaking the story to everyone and the process doesn't make any sense.

[Future Esthar]

I think that since they went to their own body on the past the images were keeped on their brain and they didn´t realized it was a dream but a memory.
This is nothing new.Sometimes we don´t remember our dreams immediately.

[G SpOtZ]

and the point is....

[Gilgamesh of Legends]

To cut off future esthars crack supply!

[Christmas]

I think that since they went to their own body on the past the images were keeped on their brain and they didn´t realized it was a dream but a memory.
This is nothing new.Sometimes we don´t remember our dreams immediately.

So they mistook their dreams as memory?

So the childhood events are all dreams but not memory. So did you realize that everytime they get warped to the dream world, the dream world itself is actually a memory/past, something that had actually happened and not make believe.

And of course the dream world they went too are fake too since you insisted on your theory of WOTC and Edea being Rinoa's mother Quistis is Squall's daughter based on the basis of "we dun see it happening in the game doesn't mean it doesn't happen".

[Future Esthar]

Don´t put words on my mouth which of course I didn´t said.
The dreams were real for sure.I just said that they had COMPLETELY forgot about their childhood.Then Ellone sends them to their bodies on the past.This dream then generates a memory on their head because they don´t remember this as being a dream.
But being the dream real the memory is real anyway even though this is the memory of the dream.This becames thus an exact copy of what they remember before using GF.

What´s the point of this?
This is an alternate theory to the Skyblade one in which he says the Gf was not on the memory part of the brain but on the one which activates memory.

Both theories are equally probable though.

[BG-57]

The only way they could share false memories of a common childhood is if they were artificially implanted and there's no evidence in the game to support that.

Much more likely it was a real shared past that they forgot.

[Skyblade]

The only way they could share false memories of a common childhood is if they were artificially implanted and there's no evidence in the game to support that.

Much more likely it was a real shared past that they forgot.

You're forgetting about Dr. Odine, Future's mysterious "X"...

[Mercen-X]

did the designers want to make us think about this so hard? do you think the designers would complicate a game so much that only people who are willing to think about it hard enough would understand the "ACTUAL" plot? i can't say this for 100%, but i'm pretty sure that the game wasn't supposed to be this complicated until people started thinking too hard.Says the simpleton.

I'll make this easy for you. SQUARE IS NOT RETARDED. They are aware of the intelligence level of their major fanbase (Japan). They know their fans like to nitpick and overthink the story, so they do their best to make sure everything they include is as accurate as possible, because their fans like to theorize on what the creators were thinking. They also know of our intelligence, which is why the games are not morbidly dumbed down when they reach America. How fun would a simple game be to an educated 20-year-old whose having an altogether boring day? None. When you're bored, you're brain needs activity and a simple game won't provide that. Which is why Final Fantasy (and others) includes so many real-world and mythological references, so the superior folk will have something worthwhile to figure out.

[G SpOtZ]

well theories are good, so i agree with you... and it's good to think. but...to think like how future esthar does? nuh uh. *shakes head* :laugh:

[Future Esthar]

I NEVER SAID THE MEMORIES ARE FALSE.GO LEARN HOW TO INTERPRET
TEXTS PLEASE :mad2:

[BG-57]

I'm not deliberately trying to misreprerent you, Future Esthar; but I do find your posts hard to interpret. :eep:

What are you suggesting here? That Ellone implanted their memories instead of them remembering it on their own? Or she sent them back in time and they witness their childhood which they interpret as memories?

[Future Esthar]

Exactly,BG-57.
Do me a favour and explain this to the other members using your own words,please.

[BG-57]

Well, I'll try. :sweat:

Apparently Future Esthar is suggesting that Ellone sent the main characters back in time to witness their childhood at the orphanage. So they never really remembered growing up in the orphanage, they just witnessed it and thought it was memories. This is an alternative to the earlier theory that the GF's mentally blocked the paths to the memories.

That about right?

[G SpOtZ]

now... what does this prove? and how does it change and/or clear up the story line?

[Future Esthar]

I think this don´t change the storyline (with the exception of the part of it relating to the theory.
Basically Edea is the creator of Garden,she knows GF make people lose memory and gave it to them.Then she try to prevent Elle from sending their counsciousness to childhood time.Maybe this is the only concept change.

[Gilgamesh of Legends]

how would she know about that when i think garden was before dr.Odine discovered gf's

[G SpOtZ]

Edea supplied GF's to people?

[Skyblade]

Edea supplied GF's to people?

What? Like "Come join Garden! Free GF with each registration!"..?

[G SpOtZ]

Basically Edea is the creator of Garden,she knows GF make people lose memory and gave it to them.Then she try to prevent Elle from sending their counsciousness to childhood time.Maybe this is the only concept change.
skyblade, this is what i was asking about haha. FE said Edea supplied them with GF's. I don't know where he got that.

[Skyblade]

Basically Edea is the creator of Garden,she knows GF make people lose memory and gave it to them.Then she try to prevent Elle from sending their counsciousness to childhood time.Maybe this is the only concept change.
skyblade, this is what i was asking about haha. FE said Edea supplied them with GF's. I don't know where he got that.

Oh... I like my version better.

[Future Esthar]

Oops,I am sorry,I think I don´t explained things well.

I mean,the sorceress is wise and has knowlwdge about many things including GF.
She knows that GF led to memory loss and then suggest Cid to stablish the use of it on Garden.

[BG-57]

You mean Edea wanted Cid to found the Garden so he could give the GF's to their 'children' and give them amnesia?

[Skyblade]

You mean Edea wanted Cid to found the Garden so he could give the GF's to their 'children' and give them amnesia?

Can you think of a better way to brainwash hundreds of children?

[Christmas]

Oops,I am sorry,I think I don´t explained things well.

I mean,the sorceress is wise and has knowlwdge about many things including GF.
She knows that GF led to memory loss and then suggest Cid to stablish the use of it on Garden.

There is no telling who suggested the use of GF in the garden(NORG,Cid...etc) and only Balamb garden uses GF so Selphie wasn't included in the brainwash program and she got brainwashed out of mere coincidence. Are you going to say that the monster that Selphie killed that came along with a GF is actually something Edea masterminded?

And eventually. we all knew that Edea just give the idea of Garden and SeeD to Cid and it is Cid and NORG that make things happens and the management of the Garden revolved around the two of them and not Edea.

So you cannot jump to the conclusions of GF usage in the Garden is suggested by Edea.

[Future Esthar]

Alright,let´s just concentrate on the inicial theory (the one about dreams and memories) since that is the one who don´t go behind logic.

[Christmas]

You said that Ellone implanted the memories but as usual do you have any evidence that she do so. If not, you just base it own your imaginations or logic of yours and there isn't any point of discussing it since it will lead to senseless arguements.

I can't said it doesn't happen nor do it happen but from the game we knew it didn't happen and anyway, Ellone only have the ability to send one consicous to the past as suggested by the game and implanting memories is other matter which you will only know.

Lastly, if you have any graphical details to support this, feel free to post it.

[Future Esthar]

UNKNOWNS,I NEVER SAID THAT ELLONE PLANTED MEMORIES ON THEIR BRAIN :mad2: .PLEASE,ASK BG-57 TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT I REALLY SAID.HE ALREADY UNDERSTOOD.
I will repeat this reply many times if you keep saying that.

Is the concept of remembering your own dreams new to you?

[Christmas]

UNKNOWNS,I NEVER SAID THAT ELLONE PLANTED MEMORIES ON THEIR BRAIN :mad2: .PLEASE,ASK BG-57 TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT I REALLY SAID.HE ALREADY UNDERSTOOD.
I will repeat this reply many times if you keep saying that.

Is the concept of remembering your own dreams new to you?

I do understand your theory and it is you that dun understand.


That Ellone implanted their memories instead of them remembering it on their own? Or she sent them back in time and they witness their childhood which they interpret as memories?

So Ellone implanted real memories to them instead of them remembering on their own, so Ellone did IMPLANTED memory to them isn't it?

[BG-57]

Can you think of a better way to brainwash hundreds of children?

Well, it's one way to do it, although the chain of events seems unlikely to me. Although I was just asking Future Esthar if that's what he thinks.


That Ellone implanted their memories instead of them remembering it on their own? Or she sent them back in time and they witness their childhood which they interpret as memories?


So Ellone implanted real memories to them instead of them remembering on their own, so Ellone did IMPLANTED memory to them isn't it?

I'm pretty sure Future Esthar agreed with the second question and not the first. When he asked me to post his Ellone theory in my own words I said:


Apparently Future Esthar is suggesting that Ellone sent the main characters back in time to witness their childhood at the orphanage. So they never really remembered growing up in the orphanage, they just witnessed it and thought it was memories. This is an alternative to the earlier theory that the GF's mentally blocked the paths to the memories.

He hasn't contradicted me on this count.

I don't see an inherent impossibilty against Ellone sending them back to witness an event that they couldn't recall on their own. In those circumstances it would quite reasonable for them to mistake a past event as a memory.

Still, it's much more likely they remembered their childhood at Irvine's prompting.

[Christmas]

My apologies. Anyway, since you said it yourself:


There is no conclusion.This is a conclusion itself.

Whether they remembered it on their own or they just thought they remember after witnessing it still give the outcome that the memories become theirs or they think it's theirs and it is a fact that those are memories.

So whether did it happened we never knows but we might know if you have something to support it.

Anyway:


When I was a little kid... I was about 4 or so... I was in an orphanage

If they witness it and didn't remember it, then they just saw the kid image of themselves but able to get the correct age right just base on the appearance of a kid might or might not be that easy. But still it is possible due to the "or so", althought I dun think so.


All with no parents... It was around the end of
the Sorceress War

So that they just witness all their kid's events but being able to guess the timeline of those events is a question unless the timeline is mentioned during the dream by someone since whatever they saw is whatever they know.

But if think they will bother to base their age(seen in their dream) according to the events happening in their world to predict the timeline just to mention the Sorceress War, then I honestly think they won't go to the trouble of it.


Irvine: I really liked this girl, and it made me so happy just talking to her.

Feelings came from the inner heart. So when Irvine witness his kid event in the dream and saw the kid version of himself fond of Selphie, so he will simply think he like Selphie just because he saw it without remembering it.Dun you think he will think twice before saying this and not lie to his feelings just because he witness something that he cannot remember?

[Future Esthar]

Implant is not the right word.
She uses her ability ONLY and they just remember their own REAL dream.
There is another possibility.A best one which joins Skyblade´s theory and mine´s.
Maybe they dreamed about their childhood and it activates the memories they already had.You know,when a person has amnesia they don´t just remember everything immediately when someone tell them about it.
But a picture (or film) would do it better than words.
Anyway,Irvine know about his age,his feelings and about the war because her ability not only let them see the past but it´s like they WERE THERE so they just experience the feeings and the thoughts.

[Christmas]

Implant is not the right word.
She uses her ability ONLY and they just remember their own REAL dream.
There is another possibility.A best one which joins Skyblade´s theory and mine´s.
Maybe they dreamed about their childhood and it activates the memories they already had.

So they remembered the memories.


You know,when a person has amnesia they don´t just remember everything immediately when someone tell them about it.
But a picture (or film) would do it better than words.

So in the end the person will recover his memories from amnesia which is a form of remembering.


Anyway,Irvine know about his age,his feelings and about the war because her ability not only let them see the past but it´s like they WERE THERE so they just experience the feeings and the thoughts.

Squall and CO also had the experience you spoke of when being transported to Laguna's dream world but they never remembered anything cause this is not their memories.They just knew about it.

So if they are transported to their own past and experience the past themselves with feelings and all this, it is as good as remembering it cause knowing it will never give the feelings and experience done by remembering itself.

From what I read, look more like they remembering it instead of knowing it now.

PS: And I apologize again for not reading the posts properly.

[Future Esthar]

I think you get it now.Apologizes accepted.

[G SpOtZ]

i thought they explained ellones powers in the game clearly enough

[Christmas]

Ok, I still dun think it make any sense since this is what is interpreted:


Apparently Future Esthar is suggesting that Ellone sent the main characters back in time to witness their childhood at the orphanage. So they never really remembered growing up in the orphanage, they just witnessed it and thought it was memories. This is an alternative to the earlier theory that the GF's mentally blocked the paths to the memories.

So you said they never remembered but witnessed and knew it but now I am telling you they remembered as imply by the game and you said I got it....here is something:


I don't see an inherent impossibilty against Ellone sending them back to witness an event that they couldn't recall on their own. In those circumstances it would quite reasonable for them to mistake a past event as a memory.

So this is what you are implying but this is what I am trying to prove:


Still, it's much more likely they remembered their childhood at Irvine's prompting.

NVM, just drop this subject.....

[Future Esthar]

So this is what you are implying but this is what I am trying to prove:


Originally Posted by BG-57:
Still, it's much more likely they remembered their childhood at Irvine's prompting.

As I said,one person with amnesia just don´t remember everything when someone tell them.They recover memory gradually.
However,since they already witness their past on their dreams,they realized that the dream was real when Irvine speaks about his childhood.
Note that Irvine didn´t tell them it was a stone house by the sea.They realize it themselves and Irvine confirmed it.
They compared the events they remebered about the dream with what Irvine told them.
However,I don´t think they realized about having it as a dream.
Whether the memory was already on the memory section of the brain or not that´s irrelevant.

[Christmas]

As I said,one person with amnesia just don´t remember everything when someone tell them.They recover memory gradually.

It is interpreted as "never remembered" and you agreed to it. Now you change again and said they "slowly remembered" .


However,since they already witness their past on their dreams,they realized that the dream was real when Irvine speaks about his childhood.
Note that Irvine didn´t tell them it was a stone house by the sea.They realize it themselves and Irvine confirmed it.
They compared the events they remebered about the dream with what Irvine told them.
However,I don´t think they realized about having it as a dream.
Whether the memory was already on the memory section of the brain or not that´s irrelevant.

So in the end they remembered it instead of just "thinking" that they remembered? Anyway, if you still think they never remembered, go read post #69 where I post some points to support that they remembered.

[Skyblade]

As I said,one person with amnesia just don´t remember everything when someone tell them.They recover memory gradually.

As I said, it is likely that the neural pathways that allowed concious recollection of the memories were what were replaced by the GF. It's not amnesia, which is an inability to recall, or they would never have been able to remember even when reminded. The idea that Ellone "planted" the memories is one of your stupidest ideas. First, the game gives no indication that Ellone has any power to change memories, she can only make person A relive person B's memories. Second, it was known by many that GFs can cause memory problems. Selphie mentions it in her diary long before the scene at Trabia, and Quistis mentions that it is an arguement used by GF critics.

[Future Esthar]

I never said that Ellone planted the memories,Skyblade.
I will explain step by step and in chronological order.

1-They LOOSE the memories.

2-Ellone send them back to their childhood(it probably was when they sleep at Zell´s house).

3-The dream was stored on their memories.
Also,since it was a normal sleep they didn´t pay much attention to the dream.

4-At Trabia Garden Irvine told them about his childhood.

5-Then they realized the dreams were real.But they don´t remember it being a dream.You know,realizing that the pictures were real made them mistake it with the memories they had before using GF.But the memories were about real thngs since it is a memory of a dream about real things.

So there is no implantations.
Or are you saying that in the world of FF8 people forgot about their dreams?It is obviously false.

Note:Squall had the dreams before going to Zell´s house.This is saw on the game.

[Skyblade]

I never said that Ellone planted the memories,Skyblade.
I will explain step by step and in chronological order.

1-They LOSE the memories.

2-Ellone sends them back to their childhood (it probably was when they slept at Zell´s house).

3-The dream was stored on their memories.
Also, since it was a normal sleep they didn´t pay much attention to the dream.

4-At Trabia Garden Irvine told them about his childhood.

5-Then they realized the dreams were real. But they don´t remember it being a dream. You know, realizing that the pictures were real made them mistake it with the memories they had before using GF. But the memories were about real things since it is a memory of a dream about real things.

So there is no implantations.
Or are you saying that in the world of FF8 people forgot about their dreams? It is obviously false.

Note: Squall had the dreams before going to Zell´s house. This is seen in the game.

One day, Future Esthar, I'm going to enroll you in an English class and teach you to spell properly, and use proper grammar.

Ok, you're right, I misunderstood. But nothing indicates that Ellone can send someone back into their own past...

[Christmas]

Ellone: Squall, I can't. I don't know Rinoa. I told you I can only send people I know in the present into people I knew in the past.

So it might be possible since she know Squall in the past.


Squall had the dreams before going to Zell´s house. This is seen in the game.

For the whole game whenever Squall had dreams related to Ellone is definitely about Laguna.(with the exception of another events which happened after Squall met Ellone in space.)


Ellone: Of course! You were my eyes. Thanks to you guys, I was able to
see how much I was loved. I couldn't change the past but just seeing it
was more than enough. Thank you so much.

This indicate Ellone wanted to change the past regarding about Laguna. There is hardly any possiblity that it is Ellone uses her powers all of a sudden to take Squall back to his own past while she had been taking him to Laguna's past all along.


Ellone: You can't change the past. I just found that out. When I was
kidnapped, Uncle Laguna went on a journey to find me... But because he
did, Uncle Laguna wasn't able to be by Raine's side when she died.
Raine wanted to show Laguna her new born baby... Raine kept calling out
for Laguna. So no matter what, I wanted Laguna to stay in the village...
But it didn't work. I can no longer make it back to that moment...

This indicate that she mean by "changing the past" mean having Laguna to see his newborn baby nor does it had any relationship with Squall's childhood.

It doesn't make any sense if she just send Squall to his past then to Laguna's past again. Why would she do that in between the events of Laguna's dreamworld?

[Future Esthar]

Not again.I had already it on the "preparatory" and "secondary" school allways with bad classifications.But what I really hate was French.

What if Elle also wanna to send them back to see their childhood?
You know,Elle need to leave the orphanage which makes her sad.
So she feels nostalgic and wanna to see her past again.
She wanna to relive the bond and friendship between them.

Just a question.How many years passed since Raine died up to Squall´s present time?

[BG-57]

Not again.I had already it on the "preparatory" and "secondary" school allways with bad classifications.But what I really hate was French.

The point is that the way you express your ideas makes it hard for us to understand them. Note that we have to ask a lot of redirected questions to clarify your theories.


What if Elle also wanna to send them back to see their childhood?
You know,Elle need to leave the orphanage which makes her sad.
So she feels nostalgic and wanna to see her past again.
She wanna to relive the bond and friendship between them.

Usually when Ellone manifests her powers people drop to the ground in a daze though.

Let's just say that it's possible but not likely.


Just a question.How many years passed since Raine died up to Squall´s present time?

Can't be more than 17 years, which is Squall's age.

[Christmas]

What if Elle also wanna to send them back to see their childhood?
You know,Elle need to leave the orphanage which makes her sad.
So she feels nostalgic and wanna to see her past again.
She wanna to relive the bond and friendship between them.


Then why didn't she just send Squall straight to his own past instead of Laguna's past. Why did she first send Squall to Laguna's past then to his own past then back to Laguna's past. This doesn't make sense. Why will she suddenly do something that is totally unrelated to what she had been doing all along?

And note that Ellone never mention that she send Squall to his own past instead she only sent Squall to Laguna's past. If she did does it, why didn't she admit it? Pls dun come with your Adel or other weird theories.

Your "what if" is as good as what if Ultimecia is in love with Squall and just wanted to get close to him.

And I told you in my previous post why she wanted to change the past and the "past" she is concerned about is Laguna's past and not Squall's past.

[Future Esthar]

Then why didn't she just send Squall straight to his own past instead of Laguna's past. Why did she first send Squall to Laguna's past then to his own past then back to Laguna's past. This doesn't make sense. Why will she suddenly do something that is totally unrelated to what she had been doing all along?

Why not?Is it impossible?


And note that Ellone never mention that she send Squall to his own past instead she only sent Squall to Laguna's past. If she did does it, why didn't she admit it? Pls dun come with your Adel or other weird theories.

It was a secret from Elle.Can´t a girl had her own secrets?

[Christmas]

Ya, so what if Ultimecia litttle secret is that she is in love with Squall and is jealous is valid too.

And since it is Ellone's secret, how come you know?

You are jumping to the conclusions of each time someone had a dream or flashbacks in the game is done by Ellone unless you had something decent to support it.

[SrBehemoth]

:mog:I have a few theories to build on what you have already said. We all know that junctioning makes you forget things, whether you lose the memories, or the connection for the brain to access the memory becomes severed. We also know that this is caused by the GF taking up residence in your head. Many of you however, just assumed that GF's just change into a noncorporeal form when they are not in their corporeal form, but i like the idea that they instead come from a place somewhat akin to the land of summoned monsters as in previous titles. I know this seems like a kinda weird theory but i can back it up and tie it all together. instead of the GF taking residence in your mind, it instead utilizes your memories to make a door to their world, however the memoroies are used up in the process, which wud explain y the longer a gf is junctioned the more memories you lose. but what about GF's like the brothers, ifrit, or bahamut that are just wondering the world. I think that each of these GF's had a synthetic door. for the Brothers it was the temple that was the door, for ifrit it was the fire cavern, etc. This theory also explains diablo and Doomtrain. For diablo the lamp was just a door, and for doomtrain, you have to collect the items to make a door for it. I agree with the other ideas that all other GF's are just junctioned to the monsters from which you draw them. about the memory theory of them seeing their childhood, the reason that irvine might have brought up the memories to remind everyone, is because he wasnt from the balamb garden and therefore may not have used GF's b4 joining the party.he therefore would have the least memories lost and might still have/have access to those memories. about those of you that keep putting down this theory with such evidence as: they knew how they felt in the memory how cud that be if they just watched it happn? to forget an event, u need only forget the experiences of 4/6 of yur senses. to remember sumthing u need to know how it looked, tasted, felt, smelled, sounded like, or how it made you feel. a sense is technically a way of translating what is around us so the brain can make a decision regarding the best course of action. usually when listing senses, ppl only list the ones that we observe with. The 6th sense is emotion and it is the most important sense, it allows us to interpret what is observed and then we make our decision based on how we feel. so mebe the GF's only use the observational memories to make their doors, and when irvine(/ellone according to future E) reminded the party of the observational memories they still had the translational memories associated with them. Neways thats all i got, sorry for the long post:mog:

[Sir Bahamut]

Interesting theory, but I think it's more likely that the GF's are stored in the characters mind as electric impulses, thus taking up space otherwise filled with memories.

Why? Because GF's can be stored in computers! Remember Shiva and Quetzacotl? They were stored in a computer. Since files stored in a computer are essentially electrical impulses in circuits, it seems likely that GF's are stored in the human mind in the same way. That's at least a lot simpler than an alternate world as you suggest!

[Leeza]

This thread is a littel old to be revived.