lowering the drinking age to 17.

[Casey]

It came to my attention from another thread about drinking. Say if your 17 your eligible to fight and serve for your country, and why not drink also?

[Dr Unne]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

[Rye]

I find it ironic that at 17, you're old enough to go to war but you can't vote.

[nik0tine]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

[GooeyToast]

Sounds good

[boris no no]

i don;t really care seen as i can drink anyways :P
i think that the limit is fine in the UK (18) but in america is it 21?? i can never remember :P

[Hawkeye]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

[ShunNakamura]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

Looks like there isn't much of an argument... seeing as how I aggree as well.

[Tama2]

Younger people may get in more accidents and such when they legally drink.

[Raistlin]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.
This is the best idea yet.

[Shoeberto]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.
Best idea I've heard all day.

[Velld Ragnarok]

Lowering the drinking age is a horrible idea. Doing so would mean that highschool kids would be drunk while at school. More, younger kids would be drinking illegally. And As stated above more accidents would be happening with all those drivers ed. fresh drivers.

[DMKA]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.
This is the best idea yet.

[mephret]

Here in Portugal you can drink at 16 legally...

[Karl]

cant yopu drink at any age in italy?

[Velld Ragnarok]

cant yopu drink at any age in italy?

Most places in Europe are like that because they have such strict penalties if you act stupid with it.

[Yamaneko]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for operating a motor vehicle to 18.

[Markus. D]

at the right that johnny howard is harrasing the aussies, in time we will be allowed to underage drink/vote at a legal age.

[Sasquatch]

First of all, trying to raise the age to fight in the military is idiotic. If one can vote, they can support what they vote for. The age to enlist is just fine like it is. By the way, you can't enlist when you're 17 unless you have permission from parents, so that argument is moot anyway.

I can see the logic in arguing that if people are old enough to be in the military, they're old enough to drink. However, you've also got to consider that serving in the military reflects a certain amount of honor and responsibility, a responsibility and maturity that quite frankly usually aren't present in the typical 18-year-old. So I can understand being legally able to drink if you ARE in the military, but there are even more arguments to be made against the legal drinking age bring brought down to 18 across the board.

[nik0tine]

Being in the military does not make you honorable.

[escobert]

From what I hear in january Vermont is changing it's drinking age back to 18.
Vermont > all

[Calliope]

I say raise the drinking age to fiftyfive.

[nik0tine]

In all reality, I think I would support a legal drinking age of 18. It's consistent with everything else, and it just makes sense.

[escobert]

If I can go to war and kill people why can't I drink beer?

[Winter Nights]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.
I actually agree with this. The drinking age is 21, because teenagers are irresponcible, even at 18. 21 isn't much better, but at least most have some life experience by then. Same goes with the military. I think most 18-year olds lack the maturity be a responcible soldier. Note I said most, not all.

[Mitch]

Lowering the drinking age is a horrible idea. Doing so would mean that highschool kids would be drunk while at school. More, younger kids would be drinking illegally. And As stated above more accidents would be happening with all those drivers ed. fresh drivers.

This all happens just about all the time around here.

A few weeks ago some kids aged 14-17 died in a horrible crash because they were drink driving.

I don't think that changing the drinking age will stop underage people from drinking.

It isn't really a problem of underage people drinking, I think, it's just some people are irrisponsible.

[Meat Puppet]

18 is legal in my country.

[Mitch]

18 is legal in my country.

Wow, me too. Our countries must be alike in almost every way.

[Jebus]

Being in the military does not make you honorable.

I agree. I despise the military, but I'm still an honorable person.

And I agree. The enlistment age should be risen to 21, and the driving age risen to 18.

[ThroneofDravaris]

NO. That would just add to the list of things I'm old enough to do, yet don't for one reason or another...

[DMKA]

First of all, trying to raise the age to fight in the military is idiotic. If one can vote, they can support what they vote for. The age to enlist is just fine like it is. By the way, you can't enlist when you're 17 unless you have permission from parents, so that argument is moot anyway.

I can see the logic in arguing that if people are old enough to be in the military, they're old enough to drink. However, you've also got to consider that serving in the military reflects a certain amount of honor and responsibility, a responsibility and maturity that quite frankly usually aren't present in the typical 18-year-old. So I can understand being legally able to drink if you ARE in the military, but there are even more arguments to be made against the legal drinking age bring brought down to 18 across the board.
Fail.

[War Angel]

Being in the military does not make you honorable.
No, not necessarily hounourable, but certainly more responsible, capable and able. It makes a stronger person out of you, as do many other harsh experiences that make you deal with a harsh reality and harsh conditions.

Anyway, 'drinking age' is a stupid idea and a stupid term. Here, the law states teens can't buy alcohol nor cigarettes - but who's stopping them from drinking and\or smoking? You go to parties, and you've got 14 year-old kids asking you to buy them a drink... they give you money, and you go to the bar and buy them one, if you're an arse. Or, you smack them on the face and tell them bed-time was hours ago, if you're an honest human-being. :)

[Rusty]

Well, the drinking age is 18 over here. So I see no reason to change it.

[Craig]

I'll be 18 in January. So I don't care.

[Kyana Snow]

Lowering the drinking age? Yeah, right. Where's the fun in drinking then? Seriously, that would be a big mistake. Now, raising the age to join the military? Why stop at 21?

[Alive-Cat]

Lowering the drinking age is a horrible idea. Doing so would mean that highschool kids would be drunk while at school. More, younger kids would be drinking illegally. And As stated above more accidents would be happening with all those drivers ed. fresh drivers.
Well, I'm already drunk at school sometimes...

[Sasquatch]

Being in the military does not make you honorable.
Nobody said that serving in the military makes you honorable. I pointed out that it's usually the more honorable, responsible, mature, whatever young men that join the military. Men with pride, education, plans for the future, etc. I wouldn't even say it's so much honor as responsibility. It's not like soldiers are normal people with guns and that's the only difference. All too many people don't realize this.


I think most 18-year olds lack the maturity be a responcible soldier. Note I said most, not all.
That's why most 18-year-olds aren't soldiers.

And DMKA, as usual, speaks his mind. Which is a failure. (Or lack thereof, rather.)

[RPJesus]

First of all, trying to raise the age to fight in the military is idiotic. If one can vote, they can support what they vote for. The age to enlist is just fine like it is. By the way, you can't enlist when you're 17 unless you have permission from parents, so that argument is moot anyway.

I can see the logic in arguing that if people are old enough to be in the military, they're old enough to drink. However, you've also got to consider that serving in the military reflects a certain amount of honor and responsibility, a responsibility and maturity that quite frankly usually aren't present in the typical 18-year-old. So I can understand being legally able to drink if you ARE in the military, but there are even more arguments to be made against the legal drinking age bring brought down to 18 across the board.

That's ridiculous. Joining the military does not show either maturity or a sense of responsibility. Most younger people who join the military are high-shool drop outs who choose the military because they basically can't be bothered with what they find to be work. I'm not saying that training in an army isn't hard enough work, it's them. "You get to run about and shoot brown people! And, they pay for everything. Where's the work in that?" Maturity? If anything it's immaturity. Why would you want to join that, when the most exciting thing that could happen is your own or another's death?
And responsibility? The half of them are wasters who are trying to escape exactly that! Not everybody, I'm not saying that, but notice when you're at school and they want to talk about careers, the only guy who says they want to be in the army is the lazy, little thicko who just chose to cook crap and run about a field four times a week for his standard grades? The responsible, mature 18 year old doesn't join the army. He gets the good job he wants and a life. And besides, it's not just the young guys, it's a lot of people in the army. Because where's the maturity in learning to shoot people on order?
Timothy McVeigh was in the army. In fact, he was a decorated seargant. That proves that being in the army doesn't mean you are, or make you, a responsible person.

[Sasquatch]

Actually, if you drop out of high school, you can't join the military. And if you enlist before you graduate, you can only do so on the premise that you will graduate. If you don't, you get kicked out of the military. Pretty simple. Because you lied to get in. False enlistment. So there goes that genius idea. Most younger people who join the military do it not because they can't find a job (as it usually takes a couple months to get in anyway), but because they wish to continue their education and broaden their experiences, to put themselves at a higher demand on the job market. As in, people with military experience are usually more likely to get hired than people without it, with otherwise equal qualifications.

As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military. Most people in the military don't want to go to war (or didn't for a long while, until this latest conflict). In fact, if they DO go to war, most of the jobs in the military would not actually be involved in combat, especially direct confrontation. Even the soldiers in a Combat MOS, like, say Combat Engineering, like myself, or Infantry, et cetra, don't really WANT to be in combat. It's not some high for us, like playing a game or something. It's something most civilians wouldn't have the first clue about understanding -- I'm not trying to patronize or anything, but it's the truth, and soldiers know it.

[Destai]

I agree, they should raise the age of eligibility for armed service to 21.

Looks like there isn't much of an argument... seeing as how I aggree as well.

[RPJesus]

As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military. Most people in the military don't want to go to war (or didn't for a long while, until this latest conflict). In fact, if they DO go to war, most of the jobs in the military would not actually be involved in combat, especially direct confrontation. Even the soldiers in a Combat MOS, like, say Combat Engineering, like myself, or Infantry, et cetra, don't really WANT to be in combat. It's not some high for us, like playing a game or something. It's something most civilians wouldn't have the first clue about understanding -- I'm not trying to patronize or anything, but it's the truth, and soldiers know it.

I wasn't criticising the people in the military, I was critiscising the idea of training people to kill. That kind of stupidity just ends up with a mess. Look at McVeigh...
Anyway, many people do join the military because they can't find work. Maybe not everywhere, but in many places. Like Flint, Michingan. Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.


As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military.
I wasn't saying that this is the way that all soldiers think, although some do, I meant that I hate the fact that stupid teenagers and republicans spew this rubbish. I certainly wasn't saying that's the way it is, but that's what some teenagers interested in joining the military do. They think it'll be an easy job, good pay for their situation and a laugh. Though some will take it seriously, yes. And the republicans? it's what they make of it. Good fun shooting foreiners, I suppose that's what they consider it to be.

And it's not like playing a game. There would be aliens or nasis or space-mutants or alien-nasi-space-mutants. These are real people and I of course realise this.

[War Angel]

Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.
Then, proceed to read Mein Kampf. It explains a few things, too. :)

RPJesus, I could counter every one of your points that stem in ignorance and hatred of those who serve and the causes they serve for... only, I can't be arsed at this point. Perhaps we shall spar later, when I'm more relaxed, and in less of a hurry.

Sasquatach - make sure that by the end of your duty time, you can still count to 10, using your fingers. Combat Engineering RESPECT! :D

[Sasquatch]

I wasn't criticising the people in the military, I was critiscising the idea of training people to kill. That kind of stupidity just ends up with a mess. Look at McVeigh...

It's stupidity to train people to kill? And the better idea would be to sit back and do nothing when we're attacked or invaded? Yes, look at McVeigh. Millions of Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines have cycled through our military, and one did something very bad. Look at Mr. Rogers -- he was a Marine sniper, had more confirmed kills than anybody else in Vietnam, and the second most in Marine history. Or look at lee Harvey Oswald -- He was a Marine. So was the kid in Texas who decided to take a rifle to the top of one of the university towers and start picking people off, late 60's I believe. What's that prove? It may prove...what, that some people are dangerous? No /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif. Would you rather train a few people that might possibly become dangerous at some point in their future, or go without a trained military and have absolutely no defenses? In fact, nevermind, I don't think I want to hear your answer to that. Do a couple bad Catholic priests "prove" that all organized religion is wrong? What about Boy Scouts that grow up to do bad things, should we shut them down too?


Anyway, many people do join the military because they can't find work. Maybe not everywhere, but in many places. Like Flint, Michingan. Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.

Don't tell me you're trying to base your side of a debate off a propaganda film by a known socialist. Please tell me you're smarter than that. Please.



As for "you get to run around and shoot people", you show your ignorance of military.
I wasn't saying that this is the way that all soldiers think, although some do, I meant that I hate the fact that stupid teenagers and republicans spew this rubbish. I certainly wasn't saying that's the way it is, but that's what some teenagers interested in joining the military do. They think it'll be an easy job, good pay for their situation and a laugh.

And again, you show your ignorance. As somebody who joined the Army less than a month after the earliest possible time I could (you know, as a teenager), and obviously has had experience with other teenagers (through training and deployments), I've never met one person who thought that it would be fun to join the military because we "get to run around and shoot people". It's not an easy job, it sure as hell isn't good pay, and I don't ever remember combat being "a laugh".


Though some will take it seriously, yes. And the republicans? it's what they make of it. Good fun shooting foreiners, I suppose that's what they consider it to be.

Though this doesn't even dignify a response, I will politely say that it's completely...misguided...to label Republicans* as people who think it's "good fun to shoot foreigners". Maybe somebody's responsibility to protect and defend America, which might happen to include combat with "foreigners". It's fun to shoot some of them, sure, but that's because of what they do, not because they're not American.

*(By the way. Republican = One who supports the Republican party, the GOP. republican = One who supports a republic, which is the current form of America's government. Just like a democrat would be a supporter of democracy, but a Democrat would be a supporter of the Democratic party.)


And it's not like playing a game. There would be aliens or nasis or space-mutants or alien-nasi-space-mutants. These are real people and I of course realise this.

Do you realize it? So does every Soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine. you're the one who tries to make it out like we think it's some sort of fun game. We know better, and 99.9% of the time, we don't like seeing combat.


Sasquatach - make sure that by the end of your duty time, you can still count to 10, using your fingers. Combat Engineering RESPECT!

Hip and jaw so far, but still got all my fingers ;) . Thanks.

[Dr Unne]

I actually think it's OK for people who are 18 to join the military. I only meant to remark that lowering the drinking age is a bad idea.

[DMKA]

I think people who want to go off into the military is fine, but I think drafts are wrong. I also think my tax dollars going to pay for everything for them is wrong. You signed up for it, you and your supporters take care of it. Oh and you aren't protecting me as it is but please by all means let me get terrorized when all the <!--ragheads-->*snip* come after me because they hate my freedom. I wouldn't want you dying on my behalf.

(p.s: I was in the military lolz)

DMKA, do not use racial slurs in your posting. This is not EoEO or EotW, but that rule stands for the entire site. ~ Leeza

[Sasquatch]

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to pay taxes that support anything we don't like. I'm not a big supporter of the welfare program, so that would save me money. Social Security would save me a lot of money, as would taking my taxes out of everything else I don't use or don't want. And the draft is only a scare tactic now, it's not going to happen -- frankly, I'm glad, because I wouldn't want most young male Americans beside me with a weapon.

[RPJesus]

I wasn't criticising the people in the military, I was critiscising the idea of training people to kill. That kind of stupidity just ends up with a mess. Look at McVeigh...

It's stupidity to train people to kill? And the better idea would be to sit back and do nothing when we're attacked or invaded? Yes, look at McVeigh. Millions of Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines have cycled through our military, and one did something very bad. Look at Mr. Rogers -- he was a Marine sniper, had more confirmed kills than anybody else in Vietnam, and the second most in Marine history. Or look at lee Harvey Oswald -- He was a Marine. So was the kid in Texas who decided to take a rifle to the top of one of the university towers and start picking people off, late 60's I believe. What's that prove? It may prove...what, that some people are dangerous? No /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif. Would you rather train a few people that might possibly become dangerous at some point in their future, or go without a trained military and have absolutely no defenses? In fact, nevermind, I don't think I want to hear your answer to that. Do a couple bad Catholic priests "prove" that all organized religion is wrong? What about Boy Scouts that grow up to do bad things, should we shut them down too?

Firstly, those people where capable of commiting the crimes that they did, because the military trained them not only how to kill, but also that it's justifiable to kill. Secondly, when was the last time that the US military was involved in a defensive war? 1776! Even in the Civil War, that was just two parts of the military fighting each other.




Anyway, many people do join the military because they can't find work. Maybe not everywhere, but in many places. Like Flint, Michingan. Watch Farenheight 911, that explains it.

Don't tell me you're trying to base your side of a debate off a propaganda film by a known socialist. Please tell me you're smarter than that. Please.

'Known socialist'? Who the hell are you, MacArthur? Why does being a socialist stop his views from counting? And anyway, if you hate propaganda, how come you were brainwashed into joining the army, the #1 propaganda machine since the USSR?
And why are socialists dumber than anyone else? Frankly, some of your writing sounds like a paraphrase of 'Mein Kampf'!



Though some will take it seriously, yes. And the republicans? it's what they make of it. Good fun shooting foreiners, I suppose that's what they consider it to be.

Though this doesn't even dignify a response, I will politely say that it's completely...misguided...to label Republicans* as people who think it's "good fun to shoot foreigners". Maybe somebody's responsibility to protect and defend America, which might happen to include combat with "foreigners". It's fun to shoot some of them, sure, but that's because of what they do, not because they're not American.

*(By the way. Republican = One who supports the Republican party, the GOP. republican = One who supports a republic, which is the current form of America's government. Just like a democrat would be a supporter of democracy, but a Democrat would be a supporter of the Democratic party.)


This just shows the stupidity and hippocracy of US politics- two parties with names which are identical in meaning. both are just capitalistic, nationalist idiots, anyway.
And 'It's fun to shoot some of them, sure...'. WTF? You sick freak! Even if that was a joke, you are still a sicko! Your either a homicidal maniac or a fascist! Or just someone with a sick sense of humour... Just because their 'bad' (in Bush's opinion, 'bad' = Muslim/ Socialist/ Black) doesn't justify murder. And what about all the evil freaks that the US military has supported? Like Batista, or the South Vietnamese government?



And it's not like playing a game. There would be aliens or nasis or space-mutants or alien-nasi-space-mutants. These are real people and I of course realise this.

Do you realize it? So does every Soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine. you're the one who tries to make it out like we think it's some sort of fun game. We know better, and 99.9% of the time, we don't like seeing combat.

Why do join then? To 'protect democracy'? Then your just a sucker...
If you want to do the dirty work of some rich fascist in Washington and pretend you're 'fighting for freedom' then that's your problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to support it.

[Velld Ragnarok]

From what I hear in january Vermont is changing it's drinking age back to 18.
Vermont > all


The states do have the power to do this, but if they do then the federal government stops paying for highway repairs. That's the strangle hold that that federal government has to keep the drinking age to 21. So if Vermont does this they'll have 2 problems, more drinking/driving and on worse roads. :D

[War Angel]

how come you were brainwashed into joining the army
Yeah, that horrible idea of contributing to society, protecting it, the people in it, and the values it stands for. How vile!


Just because their 'bad' (in Bush's opinion, 'bad' = Muslim/ Socialist/ Black) doesn't justify murder.
No-body's looking for moral justification to shoot someone, and certainly not the army. They shoot first, they die. They knock down two buildings killing thousands, they die. They threaten lives - they die. Very simple. Moral ideas such as 'evil', 'bad' or 'smelly' have got nothing to do with it. This is survival, this is war. I didn't shoot them because they're foreign, because they're ugly, or because someone told me they're evil. I'd have them dead because they pointed a gun at me, because they planned a suicide bombing in a major city, and because my little sister asks me difficult questions with fear-filled eyes.


Why do join then? To 'protect democracy'? Then your just a sucker...
If you want to do the dirty work of some rich fascist in Washington and pretend you're 'fighting for freedom' then that's your problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to support it.

<!--I hope you get your arm or leg blown off in some terrorist attack, and have the rest of your misreable life to think about the stupidity of what you've just said. -->

We don't wish such things on others here.

~Void - I was making a point, you know. :rolleyes2 <b>Making a point is not an excuse for rudeness. If you wish to make points that way, feel free to do so at another forum. Have a nice day. :) -Murder</b>


Hip and jaw so far, but still got all my fingers . Thanks.
Do you disarm mines with your teeth, or jump from roof-tops? The ladies don't like bad teeth, nor do they care much for men who say "ow , my hip!" :p

[-N-]

"You get to run about and shoot brown people!":(

[Sasquatch]

Firstly, those people where capable of commiting the crimes that they did, because the military trained them not only how to kill, but also that it's justifiable to kill. Secondly, when was the last time that the US military was involved in a defensive war? 1776! Even in the Civil War, that was just two parts of the military fighting each other.

So every war we've been involved in since 1776 was wrong? Why do you stop there -- after all, the British wouldn't have attacked us if we had only bowed to their demands and liked it, so that was our fault, right? The rest were either in defense of our nation, in defense of what we believed to be "our" territory, in defense of an ally, or in support of any other oppressed peoples.


'Known socialist'? Who the hell are you, MacArthur? Why does being a socialist stop his views from counting? And anyway, if you hate propaganda, how come you were brainwashed into joining the army, the #1 propaganda machine since the USSR?
And why are socialists dumber than anyone else? Frankly, some of your writing sounds like a paraphrase of 'Mein Kampf'!

<!--I will politely and respectfully point out the blatant stupidity in the first line of this section. MacArthur? You sure you don't mean McGuire? How about Macbeth? McDonalds? HOW ABOUT MCCARTHY, GENIUS?-->

Confusing McCarthy and MacArthur isn't that hard to do. Stop it.

~Void

Moving on. No, being a Socialist does not stop anybody's views from "counting". But being somebody who has a blatant disrespect for America and a history of slander, libel, misinterpreting, misquoting, misrepresenting, distorting facts, falsifying information, etc. etc. etc. (all that means lying, by the way), he's obviously not somebody MOST people would be gullible enough to trust. Which is why some believe Michael Moore should be given partial credit for Bush's re-election victory in '04. And by the way, I wasn't "brainwashed" into joining the Army, unless you're trying to spout that society brainwashes us to join the military, which is a complete crock. I didn't start talking to recruiters until after I had already decided to join.


This just shows the stupidity and hippocracy of US politics- two parties with names which are identical in meaning. both are just capitalistic, nationalist idiots, anyway.

Is there something wrong with being Capitalist? Or would you prefer us all to be in poverty, instead of just those who choose not to work for their money?


And 'It's fun to shoot some of them, sure...'. WTF? You sick freak! Even if that was a joke, you are still a sicko! Your either a homicidal maniac or a fascist! Or just someone with a sick sense of humour... Just because their 'bad' (in Bush's opinion, 'bad' = Muslim/ Socialist/ Black) doesn't justify murder. And what about all the evil freaks that the US military has supported? Like Batista, or the South Vietnamese government?

First, let me note, again, your ignorance. "Bad" doesn't mean Muslim, or Socialist, or black. Unless those Muslims or Socialists or blacks live to deprive others of freedom or life, through terrorism or other forms of oppression, they're fine, and we don't have a problem with them. Secondly, if you knew much about the United States, you could find much worse "evil freaks" we've supported. However, there is a means to an end, and sometimes a mutual enemy makes an ally. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Sometimes that comes back to, in a manner of speaking, bite us in the ass, but that's the risk we have to take.


Why do join then? To 'protect democracy'? Then your just a sucker...
If you want to do the dirty work of some rich fascist in Washington and pretend you're 'fighting for freedom' then that's your problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to support it.

Since you're most likely not American (in any sense of the word), I wouldn't say you should have to support it anyway. I believe you should, but if you don't believe the cause, you don't have to support it. As long as you don't get in our way, you're entitled to your own opinion. Not supporting something the government does is a freedom, one of the many freedoms the United States military has granted to millions upon millions of people around the world.

(Why do people say "rich" like it's an insult?)


Do you disarm mines with your teeth, or jump from roof-tops? The ladies don't like bad teeth, nor do they care much for men who say "ow , my hip!"

Heheh. Teeth are fine, jaw's messed up -- I was blown to the other side of a vehicle (IED) and hit it off a seat, as with my hip, though I do have other slight "war wounds" there. And it's not too bad, I just limp a little bit sometimes, and every once in a while my jaw pops out of place and I can't open my mouth all the way, or use my mouth normally.

...

(I shall return!)