Cloud's strength and Jenova cells (unmarked FFVII and AC spoilers) [Archive]

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Sefie1999AD

09-19-2005, 03:07 PM

In FFVII, it's told that Cloud was a normal person who tried to make it to SOLDIER but he wasn't strong enough. However, after Sephiroth burned Nibelheim, Cloud attacked him, and even though he was just a normal person, he managed to defeat and "kill" Sephiroth. Hojo found Cloud and Zack, both wounded, and took them to Shinra basement to experiment with them. Cloud got infected by Jenova cells, which make everyone in SOLDIER so powerful.

Those Jenova cells got Cloud under Jenova/Sephiroth's mind control several times when the Reunion was starting, and after a lot of events, Cloud and Tifa ended up in the Lifestream. There Cloud discovered his own identity. He and others eventually fought and defeated Jenova*Synthesis and Sephiroth for good, and during FFVII's ending FMV, you see the green Lifestream and red Jenova energy moving around Cloud, and soon only the green energy exists. I'm not sure whether this indicates that Cloud got rid of Jenova cells there or not, but we'll move on to AC.

In AC, Cloud has Geostigma. This is what Kadaj says:
KADAJ: "In the Lifestream... All because Mother's cells are working hard... And yet we... We don't even know where Mother is..."
KADAJ: "I've received a special power from Mother. A power to fight against this planet... which hurts the people living on it. Actually, you all have this power."

Vincent has a different view on the matter:
VINCENT: "The Geostigma... It seems that the cause is an overloading of the system to remove parasites in the body. There's a flow through the body like the Lifestream... It fights against the invasion of harmful substances."
CLOUD: "Harmful substances..."
VINCENT: "The Sephiroth element... Jenova's cells... Call it what you want."

So no matter which explanation is true, Geostigma still has something to do with Jenova cells. Now here's a few questions. Why does Cloud has Geostigma? Is it because of those Jenova cells Hojo put on him in Nibelheim five years before FFVII's events, or was he cleaned of Jenova at the end of FFVII and got Geostigma some other way? How about the children of Midgar, how did they get Geostigma and Jenova cells? I don't buy Kadaj's story about Jenova infiltrating the Lifestream and that way children who are born have Geostigma, since it seems the Planet's power destroys Jenova elements very effectively (notice what the rain sent by Aeris does to Geostigma and the three SHM).

The children weren't Sephiroth clones either, so I don't think they were infected by Hojo or other Shinra scientists. I can only come with the explanation that since Jenova is a virus (it was said in FFVII), the children somehow caught the virus, sorta like you can catch a flu even if nobody puts your body full of virulent cells. And what's up with Sephiroth clones in black capes turning fully into Jenova's control before and during the Reunion in FFVII, but the children are quite resistant to Jenova's control? For example, Denzel snapped out of it when he and Tifa were hurt in Bahamut's blast.

When Cloud was finally healed of Geostigma, he went to fight Kadaj. Now, being healed of Geostigma and the Jenova presence means he no longer has Jenova cells, so doesn't that mean he's just a regular person, so he doesn't have the same strength of a SOLDIER within him anymore? However, Cloud didn't seem any weaker after that. Instead, he seemed a lot stronger. He defeated Kadaj without too much trouble, and he seemed even stronger when fighting Sephiroth. Where does Cloud get that strength if he doesn't have Jenova's cells anymore? By leveling up and training, by keeping his friends inside his heart, what? If it's those things, then shouldn't the other party members also be capable of nearly similar things or even better?

So can someone explain a bit about what makes Cloud so powerful and what Geostigma really is about? And please, try to keep the theories and answers reasonable and within FFVII's world, so no BS things like Gaia theory, crystallized spirit energy, Jewish trees, spheres, pyreflies et cetera. :)

Sephiroth_Lionhear88

09-20-2005, 03:37 PM

cloud is just really really really really strong i guess :D
and don't forget it's a movie everythings possible in a movie

Quoter

09-20-2005, 06:54 PM

because geostigma is the way for the planet to try to destroy the jenova cells because it views them as threatening

-N-

09-20-2005, 09:05 PM

Jenova was destroyed and dissipated into the Lifestream at the end of FFVII, and the cells were distributed amongst the newborns. 2 years seems like a short time though, but that's what I made of it.

Cloud goes pretty nuts in AC, but we can presume the other characters would have done just the same. They just got cameos while Cloud was the central character, so you think he's stronger.

All things considered, AC is nothing more than a fan service, so I wouldn't take the storyline too seriously. I definitely didn't pay attention at all to the story, and just caught minor details thrown in for FFVII freaks and watched the ridiculously animé-like fight sequences.

KoShiatar

09-20-2005, 09:12 PM

I don't think Jenova cells have been completely destroyed nor removed from Cloud's body. Nobody states that clearly and after the final battle I had this very strong "We'll meet again someday" feeling.

Squall of SeeD

09-21-2005, 03:20 AM

JENOVA Cells infected the children (and adults too; remember, Rufus has Geostigma, as well) because the Lifestream carried the Cells to the populace of Midgar when it swarmed up to the surface.

If you read "On the Way to a Smile," the FFVII novella written by Kazushige Nojima, detailing the two years between VII and AC, you'll find that Denzel describes the day after Meteor was thwarted, with people that the Lifestream's tendrils had gone through excreting black pus through their pores (the result of the white blood cells in their bodies attempting to absorb the JENOVA Cells and forcibly expunge them) and with him outright stating that JENOVA's will (Sephiroth's will) within the Lifestream at that time is what spread the Cells.

The Lifestream acted as an unintentional catalyst in carrying JENOVA's Cells to the populace of Midgar.

As for Cloud's JENOVA Cells, they weren't removed at the end of VII, but were removed in this film. Note that the Holy Rain neutralizes JENOVA's Cells (as seen when Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz's entire bodies dissipate), thus meaning that it neutralized all the JENOVA Cells in the people that it touched.

When Cloud was finally healed of Geostigma, he went to fight Kadaj. Now, being healed of Geostigma and the Jenova presence means he no longer has Jenova cells, so doesn't that mean he's just a regular person, so he doesn't have the same strength of a SOLDIER within him anymore? However, Cloud didn't seem any weaker after that. Instead, he seemed a lot stronger. He defeated Kadaj without too much trouble, and he seemed even stronger when fighting Sephiroth. Where does Cloud get that strength if he doesn't have Jenova's cells anymore? By leveling up and training, by keeping his friends inside his heart, what? If it's those things, then shouldn't the other party members also be capable of nearly similar things or even better?

First of all, he still had Mako in him (look at his eyes during the close-up when Sephiroth returns), so he'd still be uber. Second, he was uber even before he was infused with Mako or injected with JENOVA's Cells. Watch Last Order. He pulled himself down the length of Sephiroth's blade and threw Sephiroth into a wall by gripping the blade; further, the wall crumpled like paper when Sephiroth hit it. Sephiroth was dumb-founded that Cloud could do this and said "What the hell are you?!"

So, yeah, Cloud was always really powerful. In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.

Sefie1999AD

09-21-2005, 09:30 AM

Squall of SeeD

09-22-2005, 04:35 PM

The thing is, it's not told anywhere in FFVII when he was showered with Mako. Sure, he had the glow in his eyes, but Jenova cells could have caused that as well. Mako is given to those joining the SOLDIER, and Cloud never made it into the SOLDIER. When he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, I think it'd be safe to say he had neither Mako nor Jenova cells at that point. So it must have been Hojo who gave him Mako, which is quite weird when he just wanted to experiment with Jenova cells by putting them on Nibelheim's survivors.

Uh... it's outright shown and stated in the game that Hojo infused him with Mako. We see him and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako. We read reports in the basement of the mansion that state he was injected with JENOVA and infused with Mako. Go back to the mansion's basement and watch the flashback, then read the books.

No. The only people who have seemingly been able to reach a Limit Break are the nine party members and the kid in the inn near Avalanche's hideout.

You just defeated your own argument by mentioning the kid near AVALANCHE's hideout. I somehow doubt that there was anything "special" about him. Or Cid for that matter. Or Yuffie. Or Barret. They're all just normal people thrust into an extraordinary situation.

As for Trance and Spirit Energy giving you the power to reach it...

And please, try to keep the theories and answers reasonable and within FFVII's world, so no BS things like Gaia theory, crystallized spirit energy, Jewish trees, spheres, pyreflies et cetera.

I don't recall accepting those terms. In any event, it's obvious to anyone that Trance and Limit Breaks are the same thing. Hell, they were the same thing from Final Fantasy VI through IX. In VI, they were called "Desperation Moves" and automatically happened sometimes when a character's health was really low. In VII, they occur after a character has been pounded on for a while. In VIII, they occur when a character's HP is low, like in VI. In IX, they occur after a character gets pounded on for a while like in VII, but they also occur for storyline purposes a few times when a character's in a moment of -- wait for it -- desperation.

Considering that the physics that apply to the worlds of VII and IX are repeatedly pointed out to be the same (the Cycle of Souls, a Lifestream, the gift of Spirit Energy at conception, etc.), it's perfectly fine to mention those things here as far as I'm concerned. So I'll do so where it seems important.

In any event, I didn't try to use something from outside of VII to explain something. If you'll notice, I referred to a term by its VII title and then threw in a backslash with the name of its IX counterpart after. This is different from what you asked not to receive in responses (explanations employing things outside of VII), which is why I feel rather justified with my smart-ass and long-winded response here.

But, seriously, defeating your own argument with the evidence you cited above was rather... odd. To argue that not just anybody can use Limit Breaks and to cite... just anybody... who is capable of it is rather weird.

KoShiatar

09-22-2005, 09:52 PM

Sefie1999AD

09-23-2005, 12:04 AM

Uh... it's outright shown and stated in the game that Hojo infused him with Mako. We see him and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako. We read reports in the basement of the mansion that state he was injected with JENOVA and infused with Mako. Go back to the mansion's basement and watch the flashback, then read the books.

Is it? The tubes were full of green liquid whereas Mako is blue. That seemed to me like some sort of liquid waste, not Mako. As for the reports, one of them mentions that Zack (specimen A) was given both Mako Radiation Therapy and Jenova, but neither had any effects on him. It's said that reaction to Jenova was detected for Cloud (specimen B). However, it is not "outright shown and stated" that Cloud was given the same Mako Therapy as Zack.

You just defeated your own argument by mentioning the kid near AVALANCHE's hideout. I somehow doubt that there was anything "special" about him. Or Cid for that matter. Or Yuffie. Or Barret. They're all just normal people thrust into an extraordinary situation.

I actually forgot one thing, there's 11 people who can use limit breaks in the game: the nine party members (note: Sephiroth can't when he's in your party!), Highwind's Pilot Trainee and the kid near Avalanche's hideout. Nobody else uses limit breaks or moves that seem like limits in the game. Anyway, how does that defeat my own argument? They're all normal people, yes, but 11 people being able to use limit breaks doesn't mean everyone living in FFVII's world is capable of using them. Think of limit breaks as special abilities, such as... good memory, for example. If you see some normal kid who, say, remembers the first 200 digits of Pi by heart, that doesn't mean everyone knows them. If 11 people in the world remember those digits, that hardly means everyone does.

Your words sound like everyone could use limit breaks in an extraordinary situation. However, why didn't Biggs, Wedge and Jessie use limit breaks when defending Sector 7's support pillar? Why didn't the residents of Fort Condor use limit breaks to defend their homes? Why didn't Rufus use limit breaks against Cloud during their duel at the top of Shinra HQ? Or the citizens of Mideel when the Ultimate Weapon was attacking them? Perhaps only very few people can use limit breaks. It's not said in FFVII that everyone is capable of using them. Just because anyone can Trance in FFIX (not that trance and limit breaks are the same thing anyway), that doesn't mean everyone can unleash limit breaks in FFVII.

You said Spirit Energy can allow people to get a surge of strength to reach trance or perform limit breaks. However, trance occurs, like you said, when a character is being attacked a lot or out of desperation. Since FFIX mentions Spirit Energy nowhere in the game, why do you think Spirit Energy allows Trance? Even in FFVII, the Spirit Energy doesn't make one strong or enable one to use limit breaks. Here's a quote from FFVII:

BUGENHAGEN: "'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget. A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world. Then, the time comes with they die and once again return to the Planet... Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world. I've digressed, but you'll understand better if you watch this."
(Text on the screen: "Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans. Not just living things. But Spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets. What happens if that Spirit energy were to disappear?")
BUGENHAGEN: "... These are the basics of the Study of Planet Life."
CLOUD: "If the Spirit energy is lost, our Planet is destroyed..."

To me, this sounds like Spirit Energy keeps living beings and planets alive, sort of like how you keep breathing or how your blood keeps flowing. It's not said in FFVII that Spirit Energy would give you extraordinary powers. That is why I don't believe Cloud's strength can be explained with Spirit Energy, but perhaps intense training and willpower, both being perfectly natural things. Note, I am not contradicting myself here, as I am merely talking about Cloud's strength, not his capability for limit breaks.

I don't recall accepting those terms. In any event, it's obvious to anyone that Trance and Limit Breaks are the same thing. Hell, they were the same thing from Final Fantasy VI through IX. In VI, they were called "Desperation Moves" and automatically happened sometimes when a character's health was really low. In VII, they occur after a character has been pounded on for a while. In VIII, they occur when a character's HP is low, like in VI. In IX, they occur after a character gets pounded on for a while like in VII, but they also occur for storyline purposes a few times when a character's in a moment of -- wait for it -- desperation.

In that case, feel free not to accept them, but it doesn't mean I'll pay any attention to what you have to say because it's off-topic. :p I don't see your logic by saying desperation moves, limit breaks and trance are the same thing and that they work the same way. In FFVII, you can perform a limit break at full HP whereas that's impossible in FFVI, and only works in FFVIII if you're wearing Aura. In FFIX, Trance is a state the character will be on, not a single powerful move. If you claim anyone can use limit breaks in FFVII because anyone can reach trance in FFIX, explain this to me: everyone can summon monsters in FFVII, but only Dagger and Eiko can summon monsters in FFIX. The games are set on different worlds and have their different systems, so using the other game's battle system to make conclusions of the other game's battle system is like trying to make an orange drink with the recipe of a strawberry cider - IMHO, it's not going to work.

Considering that the physics that apply to the worlds of VII and IX are repeatedly pointed out to be the same (the Cycle of Souls, a Lifestream, the gift of Spirit Energy at conception, etc.), it's perfectly fine to mention those things here as far as I'm concerned. So I'll do so where it seems important.

Yes, but there are major differences as well. How do you explain that FFVII's Planet can use its power as well as the Lifestream, to heal itself whereas FFIX's Terra and Gaia aren't known to have similar properties? FFIX doesn't imply in any way that a dead person could retain his/her identity when becoming one of the bigger whole. In FFVII AC, it's shown that Aeris and Zack certainly remained individuals even after they reached the Planet. The terms will also be different and not to be mixed. Admittedly, football, basketball and ice hockey all have their similarities, but you can only "shoot the puck to the net" in ice hockey or "dunk it straight to the basket" in basketball. If you ever get a penalty kick in football, try dunking the puck to the net and you'll see what I mean. :D In addition, planets have similarities, such as Earth and Mars, but does that make them the same planet, so that you could just move from Earth to Mars and not notice any difference? I don't think so, and the transition from an FF world to another isn't any easier.

In any event, I didn't try to use something from outside of VII to explain something. If you'll notice, I referred to a term by its VII title and then threw in a backslash with the name of its IX counterpart after. This is different from what you asked not to receive in responses (explanations employing things outside of VII), which is why I feel rather justified with my smart-ass and long-winded response here.

If you aren't trying to use anything from outside FFVII to explain something, why did you even mention other FFs, such as FFIX, in the first place?

But, seriously, defeating your own argument with the evidence you cited above was rather... odd. To argue that not just anybody can use Limit Breaks and to cite... just anybody... who is capable of it is rather weird.

I agree, it is, as you said, rather odd, because I didn't defeat my own argument... you did, by putting words into my mouth rather than actually taking notice of anything I was trying to say. When someone who likes debating - and I assume that you do, but please forgive me if I am mistaken - does something like that, I do find it indeed rather odd, almost as odd as them declaring their opinions and speculations as facts and claiming alternate opinions to be completely erroneous and flawed.

Winter Nights

09-23-2005, 12:21 AM

I'm not even going into the contradictions of your Limit Break statements, cause I have a headache as it is.

I will note that one of the best known facts of FF7 is that Mako energy is or comes from the Lifestream... Which is shown as green. When Cloud, Sephy, and Tifa find crystalized Mako in a cave in Mt Nibel.. It is green. No where in the game does it state or show that Mako is blue.

Psychotic

09-23-2005, 12:31 AM

I will note that one of the best known facts of FF7 is that Mako energy is or comes from the Lifestream... Which is shown as green. When Cloud, Sephy, and Tifa find crystalized Mako in a cave in Mt Nibel.. It is green. No where in the game does it state or show that Mako is blue.I always thought Mako was blue, because of the blue colouring in the eyes of those who had been infused with Mako, and also the fact that the tanks that the SOLDIERS were kept in at the Nibelheim Reactor (you see in during the flashback) contained blue stuff.

Oh, and I think when Palmer uses his Mako gun in the Rocket Town battle, the result is something like Ice 2, which is blue :p

EDIT: Oh, he also can use Fire 2 and Bolt 2 like this, but this shows Mako doesn't have a set colour, maybe?

Winter Nights

09-23-2005, 12:35 AM

Still not explaining why crystallized Mako is green. Why the Mako energy coming out of the reactors is green. And they never said that Mako makes your eyes blue. It said that your eyes glow.

Sefie1999AD

09-23-2005, 12:42 AM

Still not explaining why crystallized Mako is green. Why the Mako energy coming out of the reactors is green. And they never said that Mako makes your eyes blue. It said that your eyes glow.

However, the fluid in the tanks where Cloud and Zack were was green and clearly liquid. So the green thing wasn't crystallized. BTW When you condense Mako, it becomes Materia, and Materia is known to have five different colors: Red, Green, Blue, Yellow and Purple.

Winter Nights

09-23-2005, 12:48 AM

I never said that only crystallized mako is green. I was just pointing out a scene in the game that showed Mako to be green. And Mako itself was only ever shown as green. Color difference only came into play when materia was created.

And by that statement, you just negated your original argument that Mako is blue. So which is it?

Psychotic

09-23-2005, 12:57 AM

And by that statement, you just negated your original argument that Mako is blue. So which is it?If you mean the statement of the colours of the materia, I think he said that materia comes in different colours, not Mako. And as we all know, materia isn't Mako - it's the condensed form of it.

Winter Nights

09-23-2005, 01:04 AM

Psychotic

09-23-2005, 01:09 AM

Squall of SeeD

09-23-2005, 05:40 AM

Just a very small correction..."desperation moves" in FF VI did not automatically happen, unless you mean by that that they happened without the player having to choose any command. But they were completely random and actually had quite a low chance of happening.

I know. I said "automatically happened sometimes." I guess "randomly" would have been more clear, though.

Is it? The tubes were full of green liquid whereas Mako is blue. That seemed to me like some sort of liquid waste, not Mako. As for the reports, one of them mentions that Zack (specimen A) was given both Mako Radiation Therapy and Jenova, but neither had any effects on him. It's said that reaction to Jenova was detected for Cloud (specimen B). However, it is not "outright shown and stated" that Cloud was given the same Mako Therapy as Zack.

Yes, it is. It's already been pointed out that Mako's green, so I won't go there, but Cloud specifically states that he received the same procedure that members of SOLDIER received, while also stating that members of SOLDIER are infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA Cells:

Cloud
"I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER."
"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER."

Cloud
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

I assumed you would have known of this dialogue since it's not optional.

They're all normal people, yes, but 11 people being able to use limit breaks doesn't mean everyone living in FFVII's world is capable of using them. Think of limit breaks as special abilities, such as... good memory, for example. If you see some normal kid who, say, remembers the first 200 digits of Pi by heart, that doesn't mean everyone knows them. If 11 people in the world remember those digits, that hardly means everyone does.

What you just used as an example has biological factors that play heavily into the matter. With Limit Breaks, it's a matter of Spirit Energy, something that everybody's given. There's a surge in their Spirit Energy signified by an aura surrounding them (also seen in Advent Children around Cloud's blade when he performs Limit Breaks), and then they go ballistic. The same is the case with the All Lucky Sevens attack, which -- incidentally -- even monsters can use.

Your words sound like everyone could use limit breaks in an extraordinary situation. However, why didn't Biggs, Wedge and Jessie use limit breaks when defending Sector 7's support pillar? Why didn't the residents of Fort Condor use limit breaks to defend their homes? Why didn't Rufus use limit breaks against Cloud during their duel at the top of Shinra HQ? Or the citizens of Mideel when the Ultimate Weapon was attacking them? Perhaps only very few people can use limit breaks. It's not said in FFVII that everyone is capable of using them. Just because anyone can Trance in FFIX (not that trance and limit breaks are the same thing anyway), that doesn't mean everyone can unleash limit breaks in FFVII.

You're not making sense here. Really. You just stated that everybody in IX can use Trance, and then turn around and asked "Why didn't use a Limit Break in VII?" when the same question could then be applied to IX concerning Trance. Why didn't Garland go into Trance when Kuja was about to kill him? Why didn't any number of Burmecians, Cleyrans, or Lindblumians go into Trance when Alexandria was laying a trouncing to them? Your examples should at least not defeat themselves.

By the way, how are Trance and Limit Breaks not the same thing? Both obviously occur through one's Spirit Energy.

Since FFIX mentions Spirit Energy nowhere in the game, why do you think Spirit Energy allows Trance?

Uh... because it [i]is mentioned and it's outright stated that it's what allows Trance:

(Kuja, on the subject of Trance)

Kuja
"Yes! This is the power I've longed for!!!"
"The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy them!"

Zidane
"Wh-What do you mean...?"

Kuja
"It's Trance! You know how it works."
"But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient as oglops."
"Even tiny moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug Volcano, I came up with a plan."
"It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that can't die..."

As for Spirit Energy being in IX...

Mikoto
"Planets have a cycle of souls. Souls are born from the planet, and then return to it."
"Garland planned to gain control of that very cycle..."
"...and you were supposed to help him achieve that."

Compare to Bugenhagen's statement:

Bugenhagen
"'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget."
"A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are
brought into the world."
"Then, the time comes when they die and once again return to the Planet..."

Also, note that Hironobu Sakaguchi himself said before The Spirits Within's release that it was utilizing the same worldly concepts of life and death that VII and IX had used, and that he said back when VII was being made that he liked the concept of all Planets having a spirit that gives life energy to the beings that are born on it, with said energy returning to the Planet to be used again after the beings' deaths.

So... um?

I think you don't fully understand these concepts. Go here for an extensive explanation:

Linkage (http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/SE_M.html).

It's not said in FFVII that Spirit Energy would give you extraordinary powers.

It's displayed all throughout the game. SOLDIERs being infused with Mako (condensed Lifestream) grants them greater strength. Materia (crystalized Mako) grants amazing abilities. Then there's Limit Breaks.

That is why I don't believe Cloud's strength can be explained with Spirit Energy, but perhaps intense training and willpower, both being perfectly natural things.

Then why did Shin-Ra bother to infuse SOLDIERs with Mako? And why were they so much more powerful than normal people. Look how powerful Zack was in Last Order. Don't tell me you're going to attribute all of that to a few JENOVA Cells.

In FFVII, you can perform a limit break at full HP whereas that's impossible in FFVI, and only works in FFVIII if you're wearing Aura. In FFIX, Trance is a state the character will be on, not a single powerful move. If you claim anyone can use limit breaks in FFVII because anyone can reach trance in FFIX, explain this to me: everyone can summon monsters in FFVII, but only Dagger and Eiko can summon monsters in FFIX. The games are set on different worlds and have their different systems, so using the other game's battle system to make conclusions of the other game's battle system is like trying to make an orange drink with the recipe of a strawberry cider - IMHO, it's not going to work.

Near as I can tell, you're the only one discussing the battle system. I'm discussing this from a standpoint of plot and world mechanics. Limit Breaks and Trance are very much part of that.

The concept is very much the same and I'm sure you know that.

How do you explain that FFVII's Planet can use its power as well as the Lifestream, to heal itself whereas FFIX's Terra and Gaia aren't known to have similar properties?

They're never placed in a situation that causes them to have need for displaying such properties. However, if they were in such a situation, they would have displayed such properties.

If you aren't trying to use anything from outside FFVII to explain something, why did you even mention other FFs, such as FFIX, in the first place?

Because it's the same thing and I like the term. Why'd you take it as an attempt to explain something through the use of that term when it most obviously wasn't?

I agree, it is, as you said, rather odd, because I didn't defeat my own argument... you did, by putting words into my mouth rather than actually taking notice of anything I was trying to say.

I took notice of everything you said, including the flaws in it.

When someone who likes debating - and I assume that you do, but please forgive me if I am mistaken - does something like that, I do find it indeed rather odd, almost as odd as them declaring their opinions and speculations as facts and claiming alternate opinions to be completely erroneous and flawed.

But it is fact and other speculation is erroneous and flawed. Again, Hironobu Sakaguchi stated that the worlds use the same mechanics. Considering that he conceived the plot for VII and wrote IX, I'm thinking he's probably right.

Sefie1999AD

09-23-2005, 06:19 AM

Wow, Autumn Rain and Squall of SeeD, you guys seem to have a tendency to twist what I said into what I didn't say, then claim that I said it. I'll cover some of these points and reply to the others later.

He was arguing that Cloud was never showered with Mako, as the tank that it showed Cloud and Zack in was green instead of blue.

My argument is that only materia was shown to be multi-colored, but that Mako itself was always depicted as green in the reactors.

I was saying that Materia, the condensed version of Mako, could be made of different colors, not Mako. As for Mako's color, after what you said about green Mako, I'm not entirely sure. However, there are things that hint about Mako being blue:
1) Cloud, Sephiroth and Zack all have bright eyes that are different shades of blue.
2) In the Mako reactor with the Mako monster event in Nibelheim, you can see that the Mako inside the chamber is blue. Was that liquid inside the reactor Mako and Materia? It was heavily condensed so one could argue it was Materia, however, Sephiroth said:

Sephiroth: "This is a system that condenses and freezes the Mako energy... that is, when it's working correctly. Now, what does Mako energy become when it's further condensed?"
Cloud: "Uh, umm.... Oh yeah! It becomes a Materia."
Sephiroth: "Right, normally. But Hojo put something else in there. ...Take a look. Look through the window."

--

Cloud: "... Is this some kind of monster?"
Sephiroth: "Exactly. And it's Hojo if Shinra that produced these monsters. Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what these monsters really are."

3) When you enter the summit of the Reunion, you see a huge blue stone thing, which seems to be Mako according to what the characters say.

Rufus: "The ouside is rich with Mako energy, The inside is a treasure trove of Materia. This truly is the Promised Land."

What I'm trying to say, the game doesn't exactly say that Mako isn't blue.

I never said Cloud wasn't given Mako. The game clearly states he has. However, I said it's not exactly clear that the green liquid in the tube that holds Cloud and Zack was made of Mako, and that the notes in Shinra Basement never clearly state Cloud was given Mako. There's only notes of Cloud's reaction to Jenova cells whereas Zack's part has reports about both Mako and Jenova, neither causing any effect on him. As for what was in the tubes holding Cloud and Zack, it could be Mako, but it doesn't have to. It's not stated in the game what it was, so you're free to use your own interpretation.

Yes, it is. It's already been pointed out that Mako's green, so I won't go there, but Cloud specifically states that he received the same procedure that members of SOLDIER received, while also stating that members of SOLDIER are infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA Cells:

It hasn't been pointed out what color Mako exactly is. Someone has only been reading his own posts and not the other's, it seems. :rolleyes2 And thanks for posting the link to what Cloud said in the Highwind. The words he said always confused me, especially when there's some difference between the PC and PSX translations. Okay, so Hojo did give Cloud both Mako and Jenova. Why didn't you just insert this Highwind quote immediately, and went to say things that proved nothing and aren't even true, such as:

Uh... it's outright shown and stated in the game that Hojo infused him with Mako. We see him and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako. We read reports in the basement of the mansion that state he was injected with JENOVA and infused with Mako. Go back to the mansion's basement and watch the flashback, then read the books.

School's starting, so I'll post the rest later.

Squall of SeeD

09-23-2005, 06:24 AM

Sefie1999AD

09-23-2005, 07:23 AM

I know you've got more to say later, but I'm going to go ahead and throw this out:

It hasn't been pointed out what color Mako exactly is. Someone has only been reading his own posts and not the other's, it seems. :rolleyes2

We see Mako as well as Mako gas released from Reactors throughout the game. It's green.

Right, and we also see Mako inside the chambers of monsters in Nibelheim's reactor and in the Northern Crater's Reunion part, and that was blue.

What you just used as an example has biological factors that play heavily into the matter. With Limit Breaks, it's a matter of Spirit Energy, something that everybody's given. There's a surge in their Spirit Energy signified by an aura surrounding them (also seen in Advent Children around Cloud's blade when he performs Limit Breaks), and then they go ballistic. The same is the case with the All Lucky Sevens attack, which -- incidentally -- even monsters can use.

It's not said anywhere in FFVII that Spirit Energy lets you use limit breaks. As I said, Bugenhagen only said they're what gives everyone life. The surge of Spirit Energy or the aura causing limit breaks are nowhere stated in FFVII or AC, either. As for the Lucky Sevens, I don't recall the game saying "Limit Break!" when your party members do the 64*7777 strike.

You're not making sense here. Really. You just stated that everybody in IX can use Trance, and then turn around and asked "Why didn't [insert random individual here] use a Limit Break in VII?" when the same question could then be applied to IX concerning Trance. Why didn't Garland go into Trance when Kuja was about to kill him? Why didn't any number of Burmecians, Cleyrans, or Lindblumians go into Trance when Alexandria was laying a trouncing to them? Your examples should at least not defeat themselves.

Once again, you misread what I said. It was you who said, "In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.", which makes it sound like - sorry if I'm getting your point wrong - since anyone can trance in FFIX, you think everyone can use limit breaks in FFVII. That kind of logic from you is flawed, IMHO. After that, I was saying how very few people in FFVII are known to use limit breaks, and may I add that it's not said in FFVII that using limit breaks is a trait everyone has. And even if some people in FFIX don't trance during certain events, as you said, how does that defeat my point of not everyone being able to use limit breaks in FFVII? You're not making any sense here. Really.

By the way, how are Trance and Limit Breaks not the same thing? Both obviously occur through one's Spirit Energy.

Limit breaks don't occur through Spirit's Energy. You're using this argument all the time even though it's said nowhere in the game. Your FFIX quotes don't say Spirit Energy causes trance, especially when Spirit Energy is a word never even mentioned in FFIX. You're assuming "the power of souls" mean Spirit Energy, which isn't stated anywhere, either. Planets having a cycle of souls doesn't say anything about Spirit Energy, either. As for the Bugenhagen comment, which I also quoted, it only states that Spirit Energy lets the people and planets of FFVII live and stay alive. It's not said to have anything to do with giving people superior strength or limit breaks.

As for what Hironobu Sakaguchi said, why don't you provide me a reliable link to an official statement from him? I don't consider your website a reliable and official source of information, especially when you sound like you're twisting Sakaguchi's words into what you believe is true but isn't said anywhere in those games. As for that Linkage, that page is giving me nothing but an error message.

It's displayed all throughout the game. SOLDIERs being infused with Mako (condensed Lifestream) grants them greater strength. Materia (crystalized Mako) grants amazing abilities. Then there's Limit Breaks.

First, where is it said in the game that Mako is condensed Lifestream? Second, you're assuming Spirit Energy is the same as Lifestream, which isn't exactly stated in the game, either. Third, I've said this before, but it's not said that Spirit Energy allows the use of Limit breaks. You're linking up different things from FFVII and claiming they're the same even though the game has no mention about that.

Then why did Shin-Ra bother to infuse SOLDIERs with Mako? And why were they so much more powerful than normal people. Look how powerful Zack was in Last Order. Don't tell me you're going to attribute all of that to a few JENOVA Cells.

As I said, Spirit Energy and Mako aren't said to be the same thing, which is why I can't see the reasoning in this comment of yours.

Near as I can tell, you're the only one discussing the battle system. I'm discussing this from a standpoint of plot and world mechanics. Limit Breaks and Trance are very much part of that.

The concept is very much the same and I'm sure you know that.

But as I said, there are differences between Limit breaks and Trance, so you can't use what you know about Trance to make conclusions about limit breaks. You can't play football with a puck. :D

They're never placed in a situation that causes them to have need for displaying such properties. However, if they were in such a situation, they would have displayed such properties.

Would they? It's not stated in FFIX that they even had such properties. Besides, Terra was trying to absorb Gaia. Garland and Kuja said Gaia was doomed. And yet Gaia didn't display any of its powers to defend itself. Maybe it didn't have such powers at all?

Because it's the same thing and I like the term. Why'd you take it as an attempt to explain something through the use of that term when it most obviously wasn't?

Because you're claiming it's the same thing, and in your post, you're using FFIX's trance system to explain things about FFVII that aren't even mentioned in the game. So you are using non-FFVII properties to support your statements about FFVII.

I took notice of everything you said, including the flaws in it.

From what it seems, you took notice of all the possible flaws I said, then you twisted them into something I didn't say and used that against me. Thank you.

But it is fact and other speculation is erroneous and flawed. Again, Hironobu Sakaguchi stated that the worlds use the same mechanics. Considering that he conceived the plot for VII and wrote IX, I'm thinking he's probably right.

There, you're saying your opinions are facts and others' are flawed. Using things that are stated nowhere in FFVII to explain your opinions and then claiming them as facts, and putting words into Hironobu Sakaguchi's mouth with no official proof other than a broken link to your website, I don't regard your statements as facts at all. They're just opinions just like everyone else's, and yours are no more right or wrong than anyone else's.

BackRoomKid

09-23-2005, 07:58 AM

dam we're gonna have to put you too on seperate sides of the room

Squall of SeeD

09-23-2005, 06:35 PM

Right, and we also see Mako inside the chambers of monsters in Nibelheim's reactor and in the Northern Crater's Reunion part, and that was blue.

Spirit Energy seen at the Northern Crater is always green to the best of my memory, as it is every other time it's shown throughout the game with the exception of the glow we see coming out of those chambers in the Mt. Nibel Reactor. A dozen cases stacked against one (including when we can see a close-up of Cloud's eyes with a green glow in them) coupled with the fact that Lifestream's obviously green suggests Mako is also green.

It's not said anywhere in FFVII that Spirit Energy lets you use limit breaks.

Jesus Christ, it's called "putting two and two together." When we have worlds operating with the same physics, it's safe to assume that the same things happening under the same circumstances are the same things.

The surge of Spirit Energy or the aura causing limit breaks are nowhere stated in FFVII or AC, either.

I didn't say it causes it. Damn, man. I said it represents it. As in, "We know that a Limit Break's coming because of this."

As for the Lucky Sevens, I don't recall the game saying "Limit Break!" when your party members do the 64*7777 strike.

It appears in a similar manner.

...which makes it sound like - sorry if I'm getting your point wrong - since anyone can trance in FFIX, you think everyone can use limit breaks in FFVII. That kind of logic from you is flawed, IMHO. After that, I was saying how very few people in FFVII are known to use limit breaks, and may I add that it's not said in FFVII that using limit breaks is a trait everyone has. And even if some people in FFIX don't trance during certain events, as you said, how does that defeat my point of not everyone being able to use limit breaks in FFVII? You're not making any sense here. Really.

What gift from the Planet allows people not only to live in IX, but to use Trance, a powerful rise in their strength during desperate situations? Spirit Energy. Though a very small percentage of the characters present ever use this, it's stated that anybody can.

In Final Fantasy VII, what is everyone gifted with by the Planet at birth? Spirit Energy. Though a very small percentage of the characters ever present this, the fact that it's as simlar to Trance -- complete with appearing during desperate situations in Last Order and Advent Children (note Cloud's eyes glowing the colour of Spirit Energy after he throws Sephiroth in Last Order) -- as a tangerine is to an orange, it's safe to assume that both are a citrus fruit.

Especially when the guy who conceived the plots and world mechanics if both is the same guy, has stated that he loves the concept, and has said he used the same approach with both games.

Your FFIX quotes don't say Spirit Energy causes trance, especially when Spirit Energy is a word never even mentioned in FFIX. You're assuming "the power of souls" mean Spirit Energy, which isn't stated anywhere, either.

...

Dude. Spirit Energy is souls. Jesus Christ! That's something that is outright stated, even in Final Fantasy VII:

Bugenhagen
"Well, let's get to the subject."
"Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they
die?"
"The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much
everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their
souls?"
"The soul too returns to the Planet."
"And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In
fact, all living things in the universe, are the same."

Bugenhagen
"The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another
and roam the Planet."
"They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the
'Lifestream'."
"Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls
roaming the Planet."

Bugenhagen
"'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget."
"A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are
brought into the world."
"Then, the time comes when they die and once again return to the Planet..."
"Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the
world."

Souls and spirits are the same thing, man.

By the way, note that Bugenhagen says that everything in the universe is the same. All Planets work like this.

Planets having a cycle of souls doesn't say anything about Spirit Energy, either.

...Yes, it does. It's a cycle of Spirit Energy. Souls are Spirit Energy. This couldn't be more obvious. Bugenhagen even uses the terms interchangably.

As for the Bugenhagen comment, which I also quoted, it only states that Spirit Energy lets the people and planets of FFVII live and stay alive. It's not said to have anything to do with giving people superior strength or limit breaks.

It is, however, said that it allows Trance... which is obviously the same thing as a Limit Break.

As for what Hironobu Sakaguchi said, why don't you provide me a reliable link to an official statement from him? I don't consider your website a reliable and official source of information...

If you've ever actually looked at the site, you'd know I use quotes constantly. Thus, if you get it from a magazine or you get it there, you're getting the same damn thing. Damn.

Anyway, in an interview in issue 47 (August 2001) of the Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine, Sakaguchi said this about The Spirits Within movie:

"The themes of the movie deal with the concept of life and death and the human spirit, which you'll also find in Final Fantasy VII and IX."

Then referring to what was said about Sakaguchi in the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine, we can see that he -- supporting what Bugenhagen said -- applied these concepts to all Planets:

Kitase: "Sakaguchi had a great vision of the force behind the universe. He wanted to explore the idea that planets and people share the same basic energy and so are, in some way, intrinsically linked. He developed this philosophy from drawing upon other cultures that stated when a planet disappears an invisible energy is released into space. This energy goes to some place and concentrates to give life again when certain conditions are met. The same energy drives people. So no matter who or what this energy comes from, it will concentrate all together to give life to something or someone again."

One only has to look at IX or The Spirits Within to see this concept being applied over and over. Further, Nojima now incorporates it into what he writes and used it in Final Fantasy X and X-2. The concepts apply to all Final Fantasy worlds. What's true for the Earth in The Spirits Within is true of both Gaias, and what is true of either Gaia is true of the Earth and the other Gaia.

Refer to the upcoming post for more on this.

As for that Linkage, that page is giving me nothing but an error message.

Because GeoCities sucks.

I'll make another post after this one with what that was supposed to link to.

First, where is it said in the game that Mako is condensed Lifestream?

Right here:

Bugenhagen
"......These are the basics of the Study of Planet Life."

Cloud
"If the Spirit energy is lost, our Planet is destroyed..."

Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hoooo. Spirit energy is efficient BECAUSE it exists within
nature."
"When Spirit energy is forcefully extracted, and manufactured, it
can't accomplish its true purpose."

Cloud
"You're talking about Mako energy, right?"

Bugenhagen
"Everyday Mako reactors suck up Spirit energy, diminishing it."
"Spirit energy gets compressed in the reactors and processed into Mako energy. All living things are being used up and thrown away."
"In other words, Mako energy will only destroy the Planet..."

Second, you're assuming Spirit Energy is the same as Lifestream, which isn't exactly stated in the game, either.

Yes, it is. Spirit Energy is what the Lifestream is composed of. It's a massive swell of the Planet's Spirit Energy:

Bugenhagen
"The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another
and roam the Planet."
"They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the
'Lifestream'."
"Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls
roaming the Planet."

Sephiroth
"You stupid fools. You have never even thought about it."
"All the spirit energy of this Planet. All its wisdom...
knowledge..."
"I will meld with it all. I will become one with it... It will
become one with me."

...

Aerith
"How do you intend to become one with the Planet?"

Sephiroth
"It's simple."
"Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the
injury."

Sephiroth
"The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the
injury."

Sephiroth
"...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the
very life of the Planet?"
"Think how much energy would be gathered!"

Sephiroth
"Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me."
"All that boundless energy will be mine."

Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."

Third, I've said this before, but it's not said that Spirit Energy allows the use of Limit breaks. You're linking up different things from FFVII and claiming they're the same even though the game has no mention about that.

You have to go out of your way to assume that the same mechanics are not in play.

As I said, Spirit Energy and Mako aren't said to be the same thing, which is why I can't see the reasoning in this comment of yours.

Again, yes, they are. Lifestream is Mako and Materia, as well. Mako can be artifically produced, but it is also something that occurs naturally, as well. Spirit Energy naturally leaks up through the Planet to its surface, such as with the Mako Spring in Mt. Nibel. When it is processed through Reactors or simply leaks to the surface, it condenses into a liquid-like substance. Further, once Mako crystalizes, it becomes a sphere of solid Spirit Energy which is known as "Materia."

Would they? It's not stated in FFIX that they even had such properties.

It's otherwise made clear that Planets are all the same and function the same.

Besides, Terra was trying to absorb Gaia. Garland and Kuja said Gaia was doomed. And yet Gaia didn't display any of its powers to defend itself. Maybe it didn't have such powers at all?

There's a difference between a large rock smacking into a Planet and a giant destructo Tree slowly subverting its Cycle of Souls over the course of 1000 years. No direct assault was being made against the Planet. What was happening is that its Spirit Energy was being blocked. When living things died and their Spirit Energy headed back toward the centre of the Planet, it was being blocked by the Iifa Tree, weakening the Planet over time. Eventually, this would make it weak enough for Terra to assimilate its Lifestream, the same as the Phantom homeworld's Lifestream attempted to assimilate the Earth's in The Spirits Within.

Because you're claiming it's the same thing, and in your post, you're using FFIX's trance system to explain things about FFVII that aren't even mentioned in the game. So you are using non-FFVII properties to support your statements about FFVII.

No. I wasn't using it in a manner to explain anything. You're ignoring sentence structure. I used it in the same way that one might say "a gun/firing arm emits projectiles." The sentence would have functioned the same as "Limit Breaks are...."

From what it seems, you took notice of all the possible flaws I said, then you twisted them into something I didn't say and used that against me. Thank you.

I haven't cited you saying anything you didn't say. I pointed out the weakness in the argument of what you did say.

There, you're saying your opinions are facts and others' are flawed.

Yes, because I've got a plethora of evidence backing the notion, including Sakaguchi's concept -- as well as Final Fantasy VII's statement -- that all Planets function the same.

Squall of SeeD

09-23-2005, 06:37 PM

Here's what that link from earlier should have given you. If, after reading this, you're still arguing that the Planets don't function the same, then I'm going to conclude that you're hopelessly obstinate and refuse to acknolwedge being wrong:

The purpose of this document is to present my thesis on Magic and memories in Final Fantasy. Essentially, I seek to present that Spirit Energy and/or memories are the source of Magicks in the Final Fantasies. Further, I seek to express the possibility that all Final Fantasy worlds (or, at the least, the worlds of Final Fantasy VII, VIII, IX, X/X-2, Tactics, and The Spirits Within) have a Lifestream.

Note that there will be Spoilers ahead from Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, Tactics, Tactics Advance, The Spirits Within, and Unlimited.

In FFVII, there is a concept of the souls of those who die returning to the Planet:

Bugenhagen:
"Well, let's get to the subject."
"Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die?"
"The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls?"
"The soul too returns to the Planet."
"And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same."
"The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet."
"They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'."
"Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet."
"'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget."
"A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world."
"Then, the time comes when they die and once again return to the Planet..."

We're further made aware that the game's Materia (the spheres through which people in this world access Magicks) are crystalized Spirit Energy, condensing and crystalizing when it has gone to the Planet's surface, occurring through both natural and artifically-induced means (Mako siphoning). Further still, it would seem that when one has died and their Spirit Energy returns to the Planet, it takes with it the knowledge (memories) of the individual that it had provided the energy of life for, and it is through these memories that the wielders of Materia connect to the Planet and call forth Magicks:

(Stated by Sephiroth on Mt. Nibel.)

"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the
materia."
"Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land
and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet
calling up magic..... or so they say."

The same concepts show up in The Spirits Within, in which it is said that the spirits of those who die return to the "Gaia," (the spirit of the Earth) taking with them the experiences (memories) of their lifetimes, these experiences allowing the Gaia to grow, and with the implication offered that the Spirit Energy will be recycled and put back onto the surface world to supply another living being with Spirit Energy:

(Stated by Aki, quoting Dr. Sid's journal.)

"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit is housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth each spirit matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature spirit enriched by its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it the experiences, enabling Gaia to live and grow."

FFIX has this concept, as well (referred to as the "cycle of souls" by Garland), though the source of souls is only referred to as "the light [of Gaia]" rather than "the Lifestream" or "the Gaia." It's further made apparent that the Planet Terra also has a "light." To better explain this and the connection of these "lights" to the Lifestream of Final Fantasy VII and the Gaia of The Spirits Within, I will here explain the nature of Garland's plan to have Terra assimilate Gaia:

In Pandemonium, Garland tells Zidane that this was his plan for Gaia:

"I have no intention of destroying Gaia. I only wish to make Gaia into Terra."

What does Garland mean by this? Was he going to cause the Planets to collide and merge through accretion in a cataclysmic smashing together of celestial bodies? Was he going to teleport Terra's matter into the space being occupied by Gaia's, merging the two into a form that would be both of the previously existing Planets, but neither at the same time?

Perhaps that would have been part of the process at some stage (the memory of Terra and another Planet apparently physically fusing witnessed in Memoria would lend some measure of support to such a theory), but one thing can be certain: What Garland was speaking of was replacing Gaia's Lifestream/Gaia/Spirit Energy with Terra's. Like the Earth of The Spirits Within and the Gaia of Final Fantasy VII, the Gaia and Terra of Final Fantasy IX -- and, indeed, all Planets if we're to take Mikoto's statement in Bran Bal at face value -- have Lifestreams/Gaias:

"Planets have a cycle of souls. Souls are born from the planet, and then return to it."

Recalling what is said concerning the return of souls to the Planets of VII and The Spirits Within, we find that we have the same concepts present in Final Fantasy IX as we had present in those two games. In other words, both Gaia and Terra have a Lifestream.

In summary, from all this, we can establish that all these worlds have a Lifestream. With this in mind, recall that the Gaia of the Phantom Homeworld was attempting to take over the Gaia of the Earth, changing the Earth's blue Gaia into the Phantom Homeworld's red Gaia. In the event that this sounds familiar, it certainly should, as this changing of blue to red is precisely what Garland spoke of doing in regard to Gaia and Terra:

Garland
"We must sort the souls."
"I want to disrupt Gaia's cycle and drain its souls, filling the void with the souls of Terra."
"To speed the cycle of souls is to speed the work as a whole. Thus, war..."
"And in time... Gaia's souls are gone, and Gaia becomes Terra."

Zidane
"But...how!?"

Garland
"You saw it with your own eyes. You saw the Iifa Tree and the Mist it emits."
"The role of the Iifa Tree is that of Soul Divider. The Mist you see comprises the stagnant souls of Gaia..."

Zidane
"Oh yeah? But we stopped the Mist! So much for that!"

Garland
"All you saw was the back of the tree..."
"Come and see for yourself. See the true form of this planet."

Zidane
"What is this?"

Garland
"Think of it as an observatory. A place to measure the radiance of Gaia and Terra."

Zidane
"What are you talking about? And what is this weird light?"

Garland
"That is the center of the planet. The end and the beginning of the cycle of souls."
"The light remains Gaia's, for now, but when the blue changes to crimson, all will belong to Terra, and its restoration will be complete."

Garland tells Zidane that he was going to show him the true form of Terra, and then proceeded to show him the light that was at the center of Gaia, further stating that this light was the beginning and end of the Cycle of Souls: In other words, Gaia's Lifestream. Keeping in mind that Garland said he would show Zidane the true form of Terra, that would mean that he didn't regard the physical material that they could see and walked upon as the true form of the Planet, rather regarding the Lifestream of the Planet itself as its true form, all the physical material around it just being a shell of sorts to contain it and upon which it could cultivate life.

Recalling once again that the Gaia of the Phantom Homeworld in The Spirits Within was changing the Earth's Gaia from blue to red, this would mean, then, that what Garland was trying to do was the same thing: Replace Gaia's Lifestream with Terra's, converting the Lifestream already present and housing Terra's Lifestream in the vessel of physical material upon which life had been cultivated and reared by Gaia.

In summary, the Gaia concept of The Spirits Within is exactly the same as the Lifestream concept of Final Fantasy VII and the Cycle of Souls of Final Fantasy IX. Earth's Gaia (The Spirits Within) is that Planet's Lifestream, the same as Gaia's Lifestream (Final Fantasy VII) is that Planet's Gaia, with Gaia and Terra of Final Fantasy IX having the same concept with these "lights" at their cores.

To put it another way, Lifestream = Gaia = "Light."

Next, based on what we're told in Final Fantasy VII and The Spirits Within, we know that the memories of the dead will be taken to the Planet's Lifestream/Gaia/"Light"/Whatever, yet in Final Fantasy IX we see this process interrupted by the Iifa Tree. As a result, Mist covers much of one continent and later the whole world. Further, much of the world is desolate, as was the area around Midgar in Final Fantasy VII, the heart of Mako siphoning (notable because in both cases, the life force of the Planet was being drained).

Black Mages, beings with the inherent ability to use Magicks, are created from this Mist that now covers Gaia. Garland says the Mist was formed of the stagnant souls of the dead that were unable to return to the core of the Planet. In other words, they were composed of Spirit Energy that could not return to the core of the Planet:

Garland: "The role of the Iifa Tree is that of Soul Divider. The Mist you see comprises the stagnant souls of Gaia..."

This presents us with the suggestion that Spirit Energy provides power, and that is, indeed, the case. In Final Fantasy VII, the Shin-Ra corporation draws Spirit Energy out of the Planet, it taking on a more compressed form called "Mako." This Mako is then converted to allow Shin-Ra to provide electricity, the Mako becoming electrical energy and then being converted into whatever forms of energy that it may be used toward as electrical energy, such as light energy, heat energy, and kinetic energy. Further notable is, again, that the source of Magic in this game is Materia, condensed and crysalized Spirit Energy from the Lifestream, it acting as a link between its wielder and the Planet, as the knowledge (memories) within the Materia interacts between the two, allowing the wielder to call Magicks forth. Further, Sephiroth's plot in Final Fantasy VII was to deal a massive would to the Planet, resulting in a massive outpouring of Spirit Energy from within the Planet to that area to heal the wound, only he would be at the wound and would absorb the Spirit Energy as it came forth.

In Final Fantasy X and X-2, we see Spheres used as a frequent source of power, them being, interestingly enough, in the shape that Final Fantasy VII's Materia takes on. In Final Fantasy X, we learn that Spheres are made when absorbing and recording people's memories to water that has a higher-than-average concentration of Pyreflies:

(In Macalania Woods, at the lake where the Spherimorph was fought.)

Tidus
"This place..."
"It's just water, isn't it?"

Auron
"This is what spheres are made of."
"It absorbs and preserves people's memories."

Then, in X-2, we learn that Spheres are composed of Pyreflies:

(In Cloister Infinity/Cloister 100 of the Via Infinito.)

Rikku: So what happened to everyone's Spheres?
Trema: Destroyed. Turned to Pyreflies and scattered.

(Note: Keep this matter of the Spheres being formed when absorbing memories and then later being revealed to be composed of Pyreflies in mind.)

A further note of interest is that we frequently see the souls of the dead composed of Pyreflies through Final Fantasy X and X-2's Unsent characters, such as Auron, Seymour, Belgemine, Lady Ginnem, and Maester Mika. Further still, the Farplane (the resting place of the world of Spira's dead) has many Pyreflies floating about it. When people and Fiends die, Pyreflies are given off from their forms, or, in the case of the Fiends, their bodies disippitate into the Pyreflies of which they are composed. With this in mind, the nature of Fiends as explained in Final Fantasy X should be recalled:

(Stated by Lulu in Kilika.)

"The dead need guidance."
"Filled with grief over their own death, they refuse to face their fate."
"They yearn to live on, and resent those still alive."
"You see, they envy the living."
"And in time, that envy turns to anger, even hate."
"Should these souls remain in Spira, they become fiends that prey on the living."
"Sad, isn't it?"
"The sending takes them to the Farplane, where they may rest in peace."

It should also be noted that Pyreflies are what are seen fading away when a Sending occurs. Further still, when one has been sent to the Farplane, their image will appear there amongst the Pyreflies that float about there in response to one's memory of the sent deceased. From all of this we can infer that the Pyreflies of an individual are their very soul, or -- as Final Fantasy VII put it -- their "Spirit Energy."

Keeping in mind for a moment that Materia is crystalized Spirit Energy, in regard to Final Fantasy X, it should be noted that all abilities learned in that game are learned on the Sphere Grid (bolded for emphasis), and the abilities seen in Final Fantasy X-2 are learned through the use of the Dresspheres (bolded for emphasis). In other words, the magical abilities that people learn in Spira come from Spheres, just as the magical abilities people display in Final Fantasy VII come from the Spheres of that world: Materia.

The Dresspheres of Final Fantasy X-2 are clearly shown to be the crystalized Pyreflies/Spirit Energy of People of the past. Lenne's memories were the basis for the Songtstress Dressphere, and her spirit is even seen emerging from the Dressphere after the final confrontation with Shuyin. It is because of this that Shuyin often confused Yuna for Lenne during the game:

Buddy: Lenne, huh?

Shinra: Yeah, the girl from the Songstress dressphere.

Yuna: That's Lenne?

Shinra: Sure. She wore that dress one thousand years ago.

Rikku: Why didn't you tell us?

Shinra: No one asked. Besides, all I knew was her name. What's to tell?

Yuna: (Narrating) What Shinra said surprised me, but only a little. So
there really was a connection.

Rikku: Okay, okay. So, the reason Shuyin keeps calling Yuna "Lenne" is --

Paine: Because of that dressphere?

To summarize things thus far, we can conclude that Lifestream = Gaia = "Light" and that Spirit Energy = Pyreflies. We can also conclude that Materia = Spheres. Thus, it can be concluded that Lifestream = Gaia = "Light" = Spirit Energy = Pyreflies = Materia = Spheres.

Taking all of this into account, let's now take things a step further and consider what Shinra of Final Fantasy X-2 says concerning the Farplane, where a vast amount of Pyreflies can be seen:

Shinra: Aha...

Yuna: What are you looking at?

Shinra: Farplane data.

Shinra: The more I study it, the more fascinating it gets. There's limitless energy swirling around in there.

Yuna: Limitless energy?

Shinra: The life force that flows through our planet...I think.

Shinra: With a little work, we could probably extract the energy in a useable form.

Brother: Sweet!

Shinra: Of course, that'd take generations.

Brother: That's no fun!

Buddy: Well, still, it is something worth shooting for.

Yuna: Think how much Spira would change if we ever got it to work!

Yuna: Maybe one day we could build a city full of light, one that never sleeps!

Shinra: No doubt about it.

Yuna: Just imagine!

Yuna: But I'll never get to see it...will I...

::Shinra shakes his head to say "No"::

Brother: Shinra! Don't make Yuna sad!

Shinra: Right. My bad.

Note that Shinra's words suggest the same concept as the use of Mako Reactors seen in Final Fantasy VII.

As with Final Fantasy VII, in Final Fantasy X we also see Spirit Energy used as a source of increasing one's power. When People and Fiends die, Pyreflies are given off. After Seymour has murdered Maester Kinoc, he absorbs the Pyreflies from Kinoc's body and those that three Guado and a soldier of Bevelle give off, transforming into Seymour Natus. This is a strong indication that the Pyreflies are the free-floating Spirit Energy of the dead, and can be harnessed as a source of power the same as Spirit Energy is in Final Fantasy VII. In fact, we have absolute confirmation of this through Sin. Yu Yevon formed this armour of immense power by gathering Pyreflies around himself and holding them together with Gravity Spells, then forming from them the monstrosity that would ravage Spira for 1000 years.

Also, note that the Pyreflies reside within the Planet, and that the Pyreflies constituting the souls of one that is Sent will be sent there, as one who has not accepted death while still alive or has not died and then been Sent cannot be seen on the Farplane.

Moving on, in The Spirits Within, we're told that the OVOpacks used to power everything were derived from micro-organisms, their "bioetheric energy" (their Spirit Energy) drawn out to be used as a power source and contained in these packs. One of the Eight Spirits used to counter the Phantom Homeworld's Gaia was one of these OVOpacks:

(In the battlefield wasteland of Tuscon, Arizona.)

Aki: "We're very close."

Gray: "I don't see anything."

Gray: "You're not gonna tell me it's him?"

Ryan: "That's impossible."

Aki: "It's not the soldier. It's his OVOpack."

Gray: "How do you explain that? Packs power the weapons, the barrier cities. I mean it's just bioetheric energy."

Aki: "And to create that energy we use living tissue; single cell organisms."

Gray: "You're telling me his backpack is the seventh spirit."

Aki: "Yes."

Again, Spirit Energy was the source of power, in this case, used to power the weapons employed against the Phantoms, the barrier that kept them out of the new New York City, and the Zeus Cannon.

On the subject of the Phantoms themselves, they were ghosts of a world destroyed, carried to the Earth on a chunk of their own Planet that contained their world's Gaia. When this chunk of their homeworld (the Phantom Meteor) slammed into the Earth, their world's Gaia essentially poisoned Earth's Gaia and began attempting to convert it into itself. It seems that the Gaia of the Phantom homeworld was attempting to take the Earth's physical material as a new vessel until it itself was negated from existance by the Spirit Wave of the Eight Spirits of Earth.

Next, with Final Fantasy VIII, we find a less obvious but no less striking matter. Scattered across the world of Final Fantasy VIII are Draw Points, areas on the surface of the Planet where tendrils of energy leak out and can be "drawn" into one who is junctioned to a Guardian Force (Final Fantasy VIII's version of Summon Creatures), allowing one access to Magicks. Further, energy can likewise be "drawn" from monsters and even other people, leaving similar energy trails behind as it is transferred from one being to another as it does when pulled out of the Planet and into an individual's body. The striking thing about this is that the Draw Points that leak energy out of the Planet bear a significant resemblance to the Mako Fountains of Final Fantasy VII, areas in that world where Spirit Energy leaked out of the Planet, condensed, and became Materia:

A Draw Point (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ADrawPoint.jpg).
A Mako Fountain (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/MakoFountain4.jpg).

While they don't bear an exact resemblance, conceptually they're akin: Both involve energy leaking up out of the Planet and through to the surface. In other words, when drawing Magicks out of the Planet, one is drawing Spirit Energy out of it, gaining access to a certain number of Spells associated with the memories contained in the Spirit Energy that was drawn.

Similarily, when drawing energy from a monster or another person, one is drawing on Spirit Energy out of that being, gaining access to Spells associated with the memories contained in that Spirit Energy:

Drawing Magic (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/DrawingFinalFantasyVIII.jpg).

Finally, in regard to Final Fantasy: Unlimited, throughout this series various types of sandy materials (more various in color than the different types of Materia) known as "Soil" were the fuel for powering certain weaponry and many machines. Not surprisingly, the revelation comes that Soil is the Life Crystals of the dead. In other words, the crystalized Spirit Energy of the dead.

Based on all this, we can establish that Spirit Energy and Lifestream-like concepts are a staple of at least the worlds of Final Fantasy VII, IX, X/X-2, Unlimited, and The Spirits Within, as well as possibly Final Fantasy VIII, and that Spirit Energy was a source of power in all of them.

However, we can draw something else from all of this due to some specific elements of the nature of Spirit Energy/Pyreflies seen in Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy X/X-2, and specific elements regarding the nature of Summons as seen in Final Fantasy VIII and IX: Spirit Energy itself would only seem to be half of the equation in regard to the source of power. The other half is memories. In fact, it may well be that it is the memories themselves that allow Spirit Energy to provide power in the first place!

This conclusion can be drawn for several reasons:

As mentioned before, in Final Fantasy VII, when explaining the function of Materia, Sephiroth says the following:

"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia."
"Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic..... or so they say."

Materia contains the knowledge of the Ancients. To put it another way, their memories. Now let's recall once more what The Spirits Within states to be taken to the Gaia of the Earth upon the death of a creature:

"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit is housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth each spirit matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature spirit enriched by its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it the experiences, enabling Gaia to live and grow."

The experiences of those who die are taken with their Spirit Energy back to the Gaia. In other words once again, their memories. This time, however, we learn that these memories actually serve to allow Gaias/Lifestreams to grow.

Consider now the Aeons and Dream Zanarkand of FFX and X-2. Dream Zanarkand was bound to existance by the dreaming of those pople who had lived in Zanarkand before and during the war with Bevelle: The Fayth. When it became apparent that the war with Bevelle was lost, Yu Yevon had them become the Fayth Cluster on Mt. Gagazet, where they would generate their memories and he would tap into them, and from them create Dream Zanarkand, so that the Zanarkand they knew would live on. They generated memories of the Zanarkand they had known while they were caught in a perpetual cycle of dreaming by Yu Yevon never ending his summoning, him tapping into the dreams they generated to create Dream Zanarkand and its living, breathing, reproducing inhabtiants. Actual life was made from these memories.

The Aeons, also, were produced from tapping into the dreams of Fayth, possibly -- if not likely -- based on their memories.

Something else worthy of note is that Pyreflies constantly react, displaying the memories associated with them, as is shown to occur on the Farplane, and in the ruins of Zanarkand. Further still, the Unsent -- being composed of Pyreflies -- can even process their own memories through the Pyreflies and allow others to see them, such as when Auron shows to Tidus the promise he had made to Jecht to look after Tidus:

Tidus
"What's the big idea? Why me?"

Auron
"It is one of those things that is difficult to explain."
"Very well, I will show you."
::Auron walks to the middle of the room::
Auron
"My memories."

::Auron kneels and several Pyreflies rise from his form. We're then shown images of Braska and Jecht, as seen through Auron's eyes 10 years earlier::

Something else worthy of note comes from The Spirits Within and Final Fantasy X-2. In The Spirits Within, Aki -- having a piece of a Phantom's spirit contained within her body -- frequently experienced that Phantom's memories of its final moments of life. Similarily, in X-2, Yuna frequently experienced Lenne's memories of her final moments of life as well as occasionally felt her feelings.

Taking a brief step back to the concept of Spirit Energy crystalizing, in Final Fantasy: Tactics, upon the death of a character in a battle (once the timer above their body reached "0"), a message reading "'s spirit became a crystal" will often appear, accompanied by the fallen unit's body being replaced on the battlefield by a crystal. If another character moves to that space and takes the crystal, they can either use it to replenish their HP and MP, or to learn a Spell or other ability that the fallen character had known. In other words, they can absorb a memory of that fallen character. Granted, this isn't a huge point and is the only possible connection to the matter in Final Fantasy: Tactics, and there's no indication that other Spells and abilities are learned in a manner that is associated with either Spirit Energy or memories, but I felt that this was a point that shouldn't be left out.

Similarily, in Final Fantasy VI, upon the death of an Esper, its spiritual essence would crystalize into objects known as "Magicite." Despite the Esper being dead, if someone was in possession of a Magicite, they could call the being forth in battle. Further still, they could learn Spells from the Magicite, these being Spells the Esper itself had known or is associated with, such as the Fire Spells that can be learned from Ifrit's Magicite.

In a somewhat similar concept, in Final Fantasy VIII, while people could use Para-Magic, a method of energy manipulation that simulated the Witch Embodiment, their own physical prowess and skills of warfare were far more conventional than any Magic they could use unless they were junctioned to a Guardian Force. When Junctioned to a GF, they would have the potential for a great arsenal of magical Spells to be at their disposal, and they could increase their own strength and abilities exponentially, yet junctioning oneself to a GF causes memory loss over time, suggesting that the GF draws on the memories of its Junction partner in order to supply them the power it does (not just calling the GF forth, but drawing, stocking, and junctioning Magicks), the one junctioned to a GF acting as a Fayth of sorts:

(After Squall and the other main characters -- minus Rinoa -- discover that they grew up together, but that all of them but Irvine had forgotten.)

Squall
"...Why is it that we forgot?"
"We grew up together as kids...How's that possible...?"

Irvine
"How about this?"
"...The price we pay for using the GF."
"The GF provides us its power."
"But the GF makes its own place inside our brain..."

Quistis
"So you're saying that the area is where our memories are stored?"
"No...! That's just a rumor the GF critics are spreading."

Zell
"So if we keep relying on the GF, we won't be able to remember a lot of things?"

Quistis
"There's no way Headmaster Cid would allow such a dangerous thing!"

Irvine
"Then how is it that I remember, while everyone else has forgotten?"
"Well...?"
"In my case, I hadn't junctioned a GF until recently."
"That's why I remember a lot more than you guys."

Quistis
"How about you, Selphie?"
"Your first experience with the GF was when you came to Balamb Garden,
right?"

Selphie
"...Yeah."

...

Selphie
"I have a confession to make!"

Selphie
"When I was 12, I went on an outdoor training session."
"I found a GF inside one of the monsters I defeated..."
"I junctioned that GF for a while. So I have experience with GF, too."
"But...but, it's really weird! I can't remember the name of that GF!"

Quistis
"It must be the GF's fault...

The GFs take up residence within one's mind, drawing on their memories, and possbily placing the memories associated with the Spells they "learn" there. Spells can be lost if drawn from a party member, or if just plucked out of their mind and cast away, as Ultimecia often does to party members during the final battles of the game.

Like those that came before it, Final Fantasy IX also has a strong connection to memories. The game emphasises all memory and life having began at a single source, known as the Crystal. All life is connected, each having its beginning with the crystal, no matter how far back in time it is that the Crystal propagated life into existance. The game has a place known as "Memoria," which literally means "Memory" in several languages, and in which the characters trace their own Spirit Energy's memories back to the
beginning of its existance with the Crystal, all of them even able to recall that their world was once entirely covered with water, despite this having been, perhaps, millions or billions of years before their lifetimes. Zidane was even able to recall things of Gaia's far past, despite being from Terra, this being because all life has a single source when one traces it back far
enough: The Crystal.

This, of course, still leaves us to question whether or not the Magicks of Final Fantasy IX are connected to Spirit Energy or
memories, as they are in no obvious way derived from memories beyond the connection with the Black Mages being composed of Mist, which is stagnant Spirit Energy, which would contain memories. On this Gaia, Magicks are learned by equipping oneself with certain equipment for a certain period of time, rather than by equpping oneself with Materia, Spheres, or some other crystalline object. Granted, Kuja gained a great deal of magical power when he absorbed the souls that were trapped within the Invincible, but that still only leaves us to connect only the Black Mages' and Kuja's Magicks to Spirit Energy and/or memories.

However, consider the writing on the Eidolon Wall of Madain Sari. It would seem that some of the Summoners of Madain
Sari determined that the legends of Eidolons were the basis of their creation, and not the other way around, essentially meaning that the memory of these beings amongst the citizens of a village or tribe would manifest the Eidolon according to their customs and conceptions of these what these beings were like, essentially meaning the collective memory of these cultures would create the beings, even affecting the forms they would take:

(Written on the Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari, and accessible after performing
the small sidequest necessary to reveal all of the writing on the wall.)

The Legend of Eidolons

"We discovered eidolons by researching legends documented from around the world. The Thunder God, Ramuh, is one of those legends. Some theorize that the eidolons were created from the legends, and not the other way around."

...

The First Eidolon Discovered, Shiva

"Shiva took the form of a young girl when she was first discovered. She now appears as a grown woman. Eidolons adapt their forms to the time and culture in which they appear. Shiva illustrates this theory. In certain areas, Shiva is depicted as a snow fairy. This cannot be verified, since the only written document that remains is in the summoner village. People associate Shiva with the snow fairy. Why she changes forms remains a mystery."

With this in mind, recall that the memories of the Fayth were used to create people in Dream Zanarkand who were alive in every way. Memories made life, just as they make the Gaias/Lifestreams of their worlds grow. As it was in that case, so is it in this one: Memories gave birth to life. Tidus, a Dream of the Fayth/Aeon, even begins pooling off Pyreflies/Spirit Energy as he began to vanish from Spira during X's ending, displaying that he also had Spirit Energy, and -- perhaps -- was Spirit Energy given form in the first place, being created from memories (more on this toward the end of this document).

We also find memories coming to life in that Kuja recreates the Four Chaoses and sends them against Zidane and the others in Memoria. To do this, he accessed the memories of the Crystal, pulled them out, and gave them form:

Kuja
"Nice of you to come."
"I'm surprised you beat the 4 Chaoses that I created from the crystal's memory."

Moving on, it is through objects that one calls the Eidolons forth, a Garnet used to bring Bahamut forth, for instance, or Pumice used to bring forth Ark. These legendary creatures have somehow gained an association to these items. No doubt the customs (collective memories) of those from whom the legends -- and, thus, the Eidolons -- arose established these assocations, thus essentially allowing these items to act as a Summon Materia would. It's said in Final Fantasy VII that the knoweldge (memories) within the Materia allows one to call forth Magicks, and this would include Summons, as well. The game shows us an example of this through the Eidolon known as Madeen, the Ribbon it carried as Mog allowing it to be called forth by Eiko.

Likewise, then, it must be, that the items that allow one to learn Spells such as Fire have had memories become associated with them, instilling these items with the Spells out of the very concept of them being associated with such Spells. Essentially, it's a massive case of "mind over matter."

To summarize all this, Memories/Spirit Energy/Pyreflies = Lifestream = Gaia = "Light" = Materia = Spheres = Magic/Power.

In conclusion, I believe that every world in Final Fantasy may have a Lifestream, and that access to Spirit Energy containing memories -- or raw memories themselves -- play a large role in how Magicks [i]can be accessed. Granted, the Goddess Statues of Final Fantasy VI and the Witch Embodiment of Final Fantasy VIII may suggest to us that there is a "true" form of Magic for their worlds, with Spirit Energy and/or memories -- accessed in different ways depending on the world and/or situations -- allowing one to simulate the concept. Perhaps Magicite usage -- drawing on the memories within the crystalized Spirit Energy -- allow one to simulate the nature of some true form of Magic in VI, or the use of Para-Magic in VIII allows one to simulate the nature of some form of true Magic in that game (it was developed to simulate the Witch Embodiment in the first place). Or perhaps it is that the Goddess Statues only had their power in the first place due to the belief that they had such power, and the subsequent belief that all Magicks in the world were dependent on the endurance of the power instilled in the Statues remaining bound to some vessel, whether it was the statues themselves or Kefka's body.

In any event, what is certain is that Spirit Energy and memories can provide power, and have done so in -- at the least -- Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII, IX, X/X-2, Tactics, Unlimited, and The Spirits Within, and that the worlds of at least VII, IX, and The Spirits Within have a Lifestream, though there's significant indication of such a possibility in regard to VIII and X/X-2's worlds, as well.

All this shows us beyond all doubt that memories themselves are power. Perhaps it is even the case that it is not Spirit Energy that provides power so much as it is memories themselves, for we have seen memories provide power even when separate from Spirit Energy (in the summoning of Dream Zanarkand), and even give life, that which Spirit Energy is said to do. Perhaps it is even so that memories spawn Spirit Energy in the first place, as Tidus of Final Fantasy X had Spirit Energy, despite having been a Dream of the Fayth, his very existance maintained by a flow of memories.

While we possibly cannot answer all questions, we can hypothesize, and it is my belief that it is memories that give rise to Spirit Energy to begin with based on all that we see them do, even without the presence of Spirit Energy, and with it being said that it is memories that allows the swell of Spirit Energy within Planets to grow. As for how this could happen, consider that memories pertain to our senses of touch, smell, sight, sound, and taste, the basic aspects by which we measure life. Arguably, they could also pertain to a sixth sense of "touching with the mind." With these memories consisting of those things by which life is measured, and with their status as energy, it may well be that the energy takes form based on the memories within.

Thus, Memories = Spirit Energy = Pyreflies = Lifestream = Gaia = "Light" = Materia = Spheres = Magic/Power.

Additional Support: From masamune1600 of EyesonFF's Forum comes this bit of information on Final Fantasy: Tactics Advance, which serves as an addendum to the information presented in my article, and was made in response to it:

If the crystals were not necessary world-threads, if Ivalice remained after all the crystals had been destroyed, what was their purpose? And if Ivalice remained, why did the destruction of crystals trigger Mewt's memories? I would propose that the crystals were the embodiment of the desires of the inhabitants of Ivalice. These inhabitants were derivative of Mewt's mind; therefore, each crystal shattered also shattered part of the illusion. The vast charade of Ivalice lost collective desire as each crystal was destroyed, and so Ivalice did unravel, but not completely. The crystals, in embodying Ivalice's desires, can also be interpreted as memories. Mewt's memories gave rise to the inhabitants; their desires were a function of Mewt's memories. In wanting to forget, to push the memories of reality away, Mewt defined the desire of Ivalice as a desire to exist. This existance would nullify reality, sealing away the unpleasant memories of suffering. So, each crystal's destruction forced memory back to Mewt.

Side note: The Totema, guardians of the crystals, are easily explained by this theory. If each Totema is representative of a different race of Ivalice, then the totality of the five Totema would defend the collective desires of the citizens of Ivalice.

Now, the crystals themselves don't seem to lend to magic directly, but they are partial foundations of that world. The false world of Ivalice can be interpreted, in fact, to be constructed purely from memories and desires. If this is the case, then the world is dependent on memory for its survival. In FFVII, as you pointed out, the planet needs Spirit Energy. On the party's first trip to Cosmo Canyon, the player sees what just might happen to the planet should that Energy keep being condensed and refined into Mako. In both these cases, then, we see the worlds, such as they are, dependent upon the manifestation of memory for continuation.

The answers will hopefully continue to come forth, even as the memories of these tales continue to grow.

Cipher

09-23-2005, 08:54 PM

*reads all the posts in sheer awe*

I have reached the true promised land...

It's obvious that you guys know way more about this subject than I, but I just wanted to say that it's nice that you all can debate these points without totally ripping each other's nuts off.

Kudos. :love:

Winter Nights

09-23-2005, 09:25 PM

Yeah.. Squall of SeeD's post are usually works of art.

Shoden

09-23-2005, 09:28 PM

Holy /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif man! you must have alot of spare time to learn that much and type it all up in a few mins for a sport on EOFF!! lol.

He covers just about everything.

To understand AC you need to understand FF7 itself.

Craig

09-23-2005, 09:37 PM

Cloud is really strong in Advent Children because it's fan service and it's real fun to watch Cloud defy gravity and fight real fast with a Sword twice his size.

=Angelus=

09-25-2005, 02:27 AM

dam we're gonna have to put you too on seperate sides of the room
Ditto!
cept in advent children world, alot of walls/rooms gets destroyed in nano-secs...
Cloud(s) defies physics because they are naturally less dense than air, and therefore are able to fly! :D

?????

09-29-2005, 03:34 AM

First of all, he still had Mako in him (look at his eyes during the close-up when Sephiroth returns), so he'd still be uber. Second, he was uber even before he was infused with Mako or injected with JENOVA's Cells. Watch Last Order. He pulled himself down the length of Sephiroth's blade and threw Sephiroth into a wall by gripping the blade; further, the wall crumpled like paper when Sephiroth hit it. Sephiroth was dumb-founded that Cloud could do this and said "What the hell are you?!"

The thing is, it's not told anywhere in FFVII when he was showered with Mako. Sure, he had the glow in his eyes, but Jenova cells could have caused that as well. Mako is given to those joining the SOLDIER, and Cloud never made it into the SOLDIER. When he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, I think it'd be safe to say he had neither Mako nor Jenova cells at that point. So it must have been Hojo who gave him Mako, which is quite weird when he just wanted to experiment with Jenova cells by putting them on Nibelheim's survivors.

So, yeah, Cloud was always really powerful. In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.

No. The only people who have seemingly been able to reach a Limit Break are the nine party members and the kid in the inn near Avalanche's hideout. As for Trance and Spirit Energy giving you the power to reach it...

In some respects, every single one of us can perform a limit break. If you will recall general biology or psych classes, the activation of a person's "fight-or-flight" instinct results in increased strength, agility, and stamina. This alone is not enough to account for a limit break, but there have been some relatively weak people who could perform feats as spectacular as lifting up a car when, say, the life of a loved one was in danger; the increased adrenaline flow allows for much higher capabilities.

Cloud says he never made it into SOLDIER. I don't buy that, especially not from someone as confused as he is. Dialogue analysis is always less substantive than physical analysis. The FFVII: Last Order anime shows that he possesses Mako eyes in the reactor incident, as did Zack. In my opinion, the best fix is to say that at the time of the reactor incident, Cloud was a candidate for SOLDIER, but not a full-fledged member. Of course, seeing as he even made it that far in the first place, he's got to be fairly strong under his own power. The reactor incident was after Shinra went to war with Wutai, by about five years or so. By all accounts, the warriors of Wutai were fierce and powerful, but seemingly no match for Shinra's superior technology. Nevertheless, they very well could have taken a mighty toll on Shinra's ranks, such as in World War II's Pacific Theater. Alternatively, Wutai could have had more manpower at the time. Whether it's a case of history repeating itself or a simple allegory, Shinra would need new blood. Someone like Cloud fits the bill perfectly.

Masamune·1600

09-29-2005, 06:55 AM

Unfortunately, it's taken me quite some time to be able to see Advent Children, but now that I have, I can browse freely through this forum. I'm not going to bother to reply to every statement made, but I'll just hit on few salient points that stuck out at me while I was browsing.

First off, ignoring the green glow present in Cloud's eyes during Last Order, eyes can't be used as an argument for Mako being blue, as Sephiroth's eyes are green. I can't imagine that this wasn't pointed out, but I didn't see it while browsing.

Further, while there are certain continuity issues raised by Last Order, it merits mentioning that the "Reactor Pods" have been altered to appear green, as opposed to blue. When Sephiroth jumps into the depths of the reactor in Last Order, there's no question that the substance is green.

Further, at the very beginning of AC, when we see Mako being siphoned to the Sister Ray, both the Mako being utilized and the resulting bursts of gas from the reactors are green.

This is all irrelevant, of course; Squall already pointed out that its directly stated in-game that Cloud received Mako infusion. Beyond his "Mako eyes," the following report from the lab in the Shinra basement conclusively answers the matter.

Escapee report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

While it could be argued that it doesn't specifically indicate that Cloud was given Mako Radiation Therapy, stating so would be redundant given the report on Zack. Combined with the certain knowledge that Mako is green, Cloud's Mako eyes, and the understanding that Cloud's being a "Sephiroth Clone" implies undergoing the enhancements given to members of SOLDIER, there really should be no question.

Although it seems more a point of gameplay than story, Sephiroth1999AD's point about levels is actually correct. According to the FFVII AC Prologue, all party members are at Level 99, while Cloud himself has a level greater than 99. This is strange at best, but seems to be the case from an official SE publication.

As to why Cloud became more powerful after the presence of JENOVA was removed, as has been frequently mentioned, the Mako infusion was still in effect. Further, however, Cloud's Geostigma had been removed. While Geostigma didn't seem to have all that severe an effect outside of the times when it visibly caused Cloud pain, I feel there's no question that removing the syndrome could only help Cloud as far as his fighting ability goes.

Moreover, Cloud had begun to understand that he could forgive himself. The removal of this mental burden also would have aided him.

As to All Lucky Sevens, its "title" appears the same way a Limit Break does (i.e. same color when initiated, as well as varicolored in the menu). Further, like Limit Breaks, All Lucky Sevens has priority over other actions. As a matter of fact, All Lucky Sevens even preempts Limit Breaks.

As to Limit Breaks, while their relationship to Spirit Energy is never explicitly stated, it's certainly the most logical explanation. Please take note of this essay (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=64067), which I wrote before having any knowledge (other than the definition of Geostigma) of Advent Children. Based on the fact that this predates AC, it can be inferred that FFVII itself suggests Spirit Energy as an implicit explanation for Limit Breaks. AC would seem to further this point.

Cloud says he never made it into SOLDIER. I don't buy that, especially not from someone as confused as he is. Dialogue analysis is always less substantive than physical analysis. The FFVII: Last Order anime shows that he possesses Mako eyes in the reactor incident, as did Zack. In my opinion, the best fix is to say that at the time of the reactor incident, Cloud was a candidate for SOLDIER, but not a full-fledged member. Of course, seeing as he even made it that far in the first place, he's got to be fairly strong under his own power. The reactor incident was after Shinra went to war with Wutai, by about five years or so. By all accounts, the warriors of Wutai were fierce and powerful, but seemingly no match for Shinra's superior technology. Nevertheless, they very well could have taken a mighty toll on Shinra's ranks, such as in World War II's Pacific Theater. Alternatively, Wutai could have had more manpower at the time. Whether it's a case of history repeating itself or a simple allegory, Shinra would need new blood. Someone like Cloud fits the bill perfectly.

Ignoring the small continuity issues present in Last Order, Cloud's Mako eyes don't necessarily suggest that he was a SOLDIER candidate, or SOLDIER-elect, or anything of that nature. Were that the case, his pivotal self-doubt would have never come into play. In fact, he would have had reason to greet Tifa, glad to let her know that his induction as a SOLDIER was forthcoming. The eyes do seem to support my own personal reading of the matter; having tried to enter SOLDIER, Cloud would have been given JENOVA cells and been infused with Mako. I feel that it was the JENOVA cells that prevented entry into SOLDIER in the first place. Regardless, the point is that Cloud failed to make it into SOLDIER, and thus his self-doubt was magnified even further.

?????

09-29-2005, 07:08 AM

Masamune·1600

09-29-2005, 07:30 AM

As I recall, Shinra only exposed their elite squads to Mako. They don't have the capital to waste on people who haven't proven themselves; doing so isn't good business. Cloud must have done something right, or he quite simply wouldn't have the power to face down Sephiroth; no unenhanced human could do what he did and live. Cases of "Mako poisoning" are mentioned, though. In the case of Cloud's time sitting in a wheelchair in Mideel, his mind had been particularly broken. It seems likely that Mako injection affects the mind.

While similar, it's important to differentiate between Spirit Energy and Mako, which is compressed/refined Spirit Energy. FFVII lamentably doesn't do a great job of differentiating, but even when used synonymously, the fact remains that it was the great concentration of Spirit Energy/Mako that led to Cloud's incapacitation in Mideel. It was, in essence, due to the overabundance of knowledge forced into his mind all at once by merit of floating through the Lifestream.

Barret: So what about him? You know...... Cloud?

Doctor: I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a case this
bad. An immerse amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain all at
once...... No normal human could survived it...... It's a miracle he did!

Barret: No wonder... After fallin' in the Lifestream an' bein' washed up
here......

In fact, given that "no normal human could have survived it," it can even be argued (as should obviously be the case from Cloud's enormous power) that he has a special affinity for Mako and to the Lifestream, manifested in his Spirit Energy.

Nowhere is it mentioned in the AC prologue or anywhere else in the movie where the characters are in terms of in-game mechanics. For all we know they could still be at Level 1, though this seems exceptionally unlikely.

The AC Prologue isn't part of the movie. It's a book published by Square Enix, which details certain facets of AC. A machine translation on Advent Children.net stated that all party members were level 99, and that Cloud was the only one that could go beyond it. While machine translations are by their nature flawed, it's possible to draw out the meaning from what's stated, and this particular passage is unusually lucid.

Data in SE official publications is only valid when it does not contradict its source material. This applies regardless of what universe you're working in.

Um, I was doing that for your benefit. Your theory absolutely requires previous Mako infusion, which necessitates the "Cloud's Mako eyes scene" in Last Order. In any case, as previously stated, it's nothing short of ridiculous to suggest that Cloud was a SOLDIER-in-training of some sort, as it completely, wholly, and utterly departs from perhaps the single most important plot device of Final Fantasy VII.

Sefie1999AD

09-29-2005, 01:06 PM

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation, Masamune and ????? (by all means, carry on), but I just wanted to say that sometimes you can write 50 screens worth of essays where you say things like "Damn, man, it's so obvious! Can't you even count 2 plus 2 together?", but you still fail to convince someone in every way. And sometimes, less than two rows of text is enough to explain things, like in this post:

Cloud is really strong in Advent Children because it's fan service and it's real fun to watch Cloud defy gravity and fight real fast with a Sword twice his size.

To quote Kingdom Hearts, "maybe some things are that simple." :D Thanks for your answers, Craig and others. Now if you want to continue this conversation, people, go ahead.

KoShiatar

09-29-2005, 02:59 PM

You guys are crazy.

?????

09-29-2005, 11:50 PM

Ceil

09-30-2005, 03:37 AM

Some people are genetically strong, some people are genetically weak. Maybe an unknown twist is that Cloud is also of the Cetra. Maybe he didn't pass a Psych. Eval. to get into SOLDIER.

?????

09-30-2005, 03:46 AM

If he didn't pass a psych evaluation, there's no way in hell that Sephiroth could have. And nobody's inherently strong enough to withstand being stabbed through the stomach.

PjO

09-30-2005, 04:18 AM

I am under the impression that Cloud received his new strength through a vision. Aeris reached out and held his hand as he passed through Bahamut's attack, and sped atop of the monster's spine, slicing it with a blue sort of energy (I refuse to say "pyrefly." I don't like the idea of the two worlds being linked, although all recent FF games have basically the same mythology). Furthermore, this had not shown up prior to his vision, and did show up as he fought Sephiroth in the final minutes of the film.

In short: Aeris gave him his new strength. I didn't quite know what was happening until I heard: "Interesting... what made you stronger?" "I wouldn't tell it to the likes of you." It seemed rather implied to me.

The idea of this being a fan service is possible, but then again Square has never let us down much, has it? Of course not. Otherwise we'd hate them. I simply refuse to believe the entire film was a fan service.

This is my own opinion: please respect it and discuss it.

Ceil

09-30-2005, 05:16 AM

New York rapper 50¢ was shot nine times and survived, why couldn't Cloud survive getting stabbed?

?????

09-30-2005, 06:23 AM

Of course he was shot nine times and survived. Any one of us could survive that, if medical care was provided fast enough and if they didn't hit any vital organs. There's a difference between mere survival and managing to actually defeat your assailant after the fact.

Ceil

09-30-2005, 06:47 AM

I don't know if it was brought up in this thread (I believe the conversation was actually regarding Limit Breaks), but people in a desperate condition can perform incredible (in every sense of the word) feats of strength, thanks to adrenaline. People (not on drugs) have been known to lift a car to save a loved one. I think Cloud could finish of Sephiroth for his loved ones in the 'desperate situation' he was in. If you recall, he did pass out once Sephiroth was 'gone', showing that the alleged affects of adrenaline had passed, for he and Tifa were once again safe. Shortly after, Shin-Ra showed up and whisked he and Zack away, not to be seen again for five years. If anyone in the Final Fantasy multi-verse can afford/perform the necessary medical procedures to garauntee their survival, it is Shin-Ra and Hojo.

?????

09-30-2005, 07:56 AM

In the instances where people lift cars, they are not being grievously injured. It is quite simply impossible for Cloud to perform such a feat without having been injected with Mako or having some special talent beforehand. But to have Cloud be some sort of hero chosen by fate would destroy the entire premise of Final Fantasy; the belief that free will is absolute.

Cipher

10-01-2005, 06:45 AM

This is pulled directly from the script (and I've got a link to the script in its entirety if anyone wants it - feel free to PM me).

"I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."

See? Cloud said for himself (AFTER being able to pick out what was truth v. what was a lie) that he was physically built like someone in SOLDIER to begin with. Plus, Hojo used his body for "cloning" experimentation.

In fact, that leads directly into Cloud's next set of words, and my next point:

"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
"For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
"But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

In retrospect, I believe that we're thinking of the word 'Clone' in the wrong context, as it pertains to what Hojo was doing. Hojo didn't clone in the sense of starting a new embryo, thus creating a carbon copy of the original right down to the DNA. Instead, they use the injections to try and modify one's genetic makeup, maybe through the destruction of certain strands of DNA. I don't know. I ain't a scientist.

HOWEVER. What I do know is that this would explain what Hojo was doing to Cloud in the basement of the ShinRa mansion.

No...get your head out of the gutter. ;)

He was attempting the "Clone" process. Zack - understandably - wouldn't have reacted badly to the Mako, because already been exposed to high levels of it before (which is how he became part of SOLDIER in the first place).

I'm going to also assume that ShinRa doesn't just inject a person with Mako willy-nilly. They'd probably do something similar to what Doctor's used to call the "scratch test." The scratch test was a way for a Doctor to find out exactly what his patient was allergic to, by applying a small amount of whatever it is (peanut oil) on his patient's wrist, and then watching to see what happens. No bad reaction = No allergy.

If you apply that to the injection of Mako/Jenova Cells, it's probably assumed that Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER through a similar method - a small controlled application of Mako causing a minor adverse reaction. So what do you get if you stick a person that's allergic to peanuts in a HUGE vat of peanut oil?

You get Cloud, that's what.

At least, that's my theory. Not nearly as well-thought out or put-together as the responses I've seen in this thread so far... but feel free to discuss and offer a rebuttal. I promise I won't go stabbity.

Russielloyd

10-02-2005, 12:53 AM

Maybe your not suppost to get the proper reason till youve played and watched all the games and the movies.

As you see in Last Order Zack and Cloud are being followed while in the Mako Reactor in Nibelhiem and Traveling to Midgar. Meaning something must of deffinately happened before the visit to Nibelheim.

You'll have Crisis Core which is set 5 years before the events that take place in Final Fantasy 7, that will be last game of the compilation to be released (i think), so all your theorys and guesses might be given then.

?????

10-02-2005, 03:14 PM

That's actually a good theory. It explains why Cloud would be able to perform feats of incredible physical strength.

Cloud's psyche was already beginning to erode by the time he decided to become a SOLDIER. Perhaps this is why he reacted adversely to the Mako.

Masamune·1600

10-02-2005, 07:31 PM

If one is postulating that Cloud has some kind of special affinity for Mako that makes him stronger than normal humans even without actually being infused with Mako, one must also postulate where this special strength is derived from. One must also question, if this is the case, why he didn't make SOLDIER. If you can explain those, I'll accept your analysis.

It's derivative of the Lifestream, as all life on Gaia is based on Spirit Energy. Cloud, in other words, may simply have more powerful Spirit Energy/a closer link to the Planet/however one wants to say it than others do. What I suggested when I made the point about the Lifestream was that Cloud's ability to survive could potentially be used to argue such a point.

As to why Cloud failed to make SOLDIER, there are two main lines of thought, and a third which links the two. One would be, assuming Cloud was infused with Mako and given JENOVA cells prior to Hojo's experiments, an early reaction to the JENOVA cells. Alternatively, Cloud's crippling self-doubt and weakened will might have in some way prevented entry. The combination of these ideas would suggest that JENOVA magnified Cloud's self-doubt to a point where it would be impossible for him to enter SOLDIER. It seems extremely unlikely that his failure had anything to do with his physical abilities.

I've not seen this prologue that you refer to. I'd be appreciative if someone could provide a link.

The AC Prologue, as seen on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos?ASIN/4087793397/250-5542357-3714629)

If you apply that to the injection of Mako/Jenova Cells, it's probably assumed that Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER through a similar method - a small controlled application of Mako causing a minor adverse reaction.

With the exception of one notable inaccuracy, this is basically the same idea as I've always held. However, Mako had nothing to do with Cloud's problems; they were entirely due to the JENOVA cells.

The Escapee Report in the mansion basement makes this clear.

Escapee report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Specimen B, Cloud, reacts to the presence of JENOVA's cells, but not to Mako. Zack (specimen A), who had successfully entered SOLDIER, obviously exhibited no adverse or unusual reaction to either Mako infusion or JENOVA therapy.

?????

10-02-2005, 07:51 PM

That makes sense; some people do seem to have a stronger affinity for the Lifestream than others. This seems, to a degree, to be based on their state of mind. Cloud's mental shielding had already begun to be put up at the time he left Nibelheim to enlist; it's possible that this enabled him to withstand and profit from the test Mako infusion that they probably do when you apply to enter SOLDIER. Jenova did mess him up real good, though. When I talked about him reacting adversely to the Mako earlier, I was referring to the Mideel incident. His mental walls had been broken down by Sephiroth, which would make him far more susceptible to Mako.

Oh, and I can't read Japanese.

Cipher

10-02-2005, 09:28 PM

With the exception of one notable inaccuracy, this is basically the same idea as I've always held. However, Mako had nothing to do with Cloud's problems; they were entirely due to the JENOVA cells.

That may be true, but remember what Cloud says - members of SOLDIER aren't simply infused with Mako. They're also injected with Jenova cells too. So that scratch-theory could still apply. And even if the Mako didn't affect him, the Jenova did.

So I think we're generally on the same page, ne? :D

?????

10-03-2005, 03:46 AM

Russielloyd

10-03-2005, 03:24 PM

I think i know really why Cloud is still so strong after he loses the Jenova cells.

Well all through out the movie, you saw fenrir the wolf right? and was always watching over cloud.

Nobody posted this, its from a site.

When he was still a pup they had nothing to fear, but when the gods saw one day how he had grown, they decided to render him harmless. However, none of the gods had enough courage to face the gigantic wolf. Instead, they tried to trick him. They said the wolf was weak and could never break free when he was chained. Fenrir accepted the challenge and let the gods chain him. Unfortunately, he was so immensely strong that he managed to break the strongest fetters as if they were cobwebs.

Link for full story here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/fenrir.html)

I think with Fenrir watching over Cloud, this is why i think Cloud is so powerfull and strong. The logic is all there.

Rubix

10-03-2005, 03:26 PM

?????

10-03-2005, 04:10 PM

Well, even though Cloud had lost the Jenova cells, he still had a crapton of Mako in him, boosting his already incredible spiritual and physical strength. Basically, he was a warrior fighting for and empowered by the planet.