The relationship between Cloud and Tifa [Archive]

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Pivi

09-20-2005, 10:23 PM

Well, maybe I'm just too romantic, but I'm watching the movie, and try to find some clues about the relationship of Tifa and Cloud.

Post Your theories here, if You want, and what do You think.

Quiksilver326

09-20-2005, 10:26 PM

Well they had a kid, it's that guy with the brown afro.

BackRoomKid

09-20-2005, 10:26 PM

mutual friends, BUT it's going to happen

it just will

'nuff said for me

square can't make an official "relationship" because fans, for it or against it, will whine about it endlessly

Quiksilver326

09-20-2005, 10:30 PM

Yeah, but it's funny since it's just a movie/game.

Pivi

09-20-2005, 10:31 PM

Well they had a kid, it's that guy with the brown afro.
He's not Cloud and Tifa's "biological" kid... :)

Winter Nights

09-20-2005, 10:33 PM

They left it up to personal speculation, same with Aerith and Zack.

Sefie1999AD

09-20-2005, 11:52 PM

*SPOILERS!*

Since Aeris left together with Zack, I like to think they got together in the Lifestream. As for Cloud and Tifa, have you guys seen the Last Samurai? There the look between Nathan (Cruise) and the woman in the end told us so much, we didn't need confessions of love or kissing to know what they were thinking, and the ending scene felt so much deeper and more emotional without any kissing. The same for Cloud and Tifa, IMHO. Just see the loving look in Tifa's eyes when she's looking at Cloud. There Cloud is also looking at Tifa at that point and smiling. The ending music is even titled "Cloud Smiles" in the soundtrack. Also, when Cloud is told "Welcome home", he's looking at his friends, and I think the screen (showing what Cloud sees) is centering at Tifa. When Cloud says "I'm back", and just look at his eyes there. BTW Didn't you hear similar words in FFX-2's happy ending between Tidus and Yuna? I don't think Square Enix ever makes a decisive announcement about who ends up together with whom since there's so many fans for Cloud/Aeris and Cloud/Tifa alike.

Quiksilver326

09-21-2005, 12:10 AM

This is little off topic but how did you get a custom title?

BackRoomKid

09-21-2005, 12:31 AM

^^^you've got to be a member for 8 months i believe, then you get it

RedXIII

09-21-2005, 01:59 AM

Pivi

09-21-2005, 09:39 PM

I have the exact same thoughts as Sephiroth1999AD, as he explains. EXACTLY what I found out so far. :)

Winter Nights

09-21-2005, 09:51 PM

Its obvious. It shows u in the begging. When she awnsers the phone, she says "Hello, this is the strife delivery service." Also, u see a photo of her, cloud, denzel and marlene. Bit obvious now aint it
Actually, it just means that they still work together and are close. There is also a pic of the entire group right next to it, at the end of the movie. It's a big hint at the possibility, but it's still just speculation and that's all it would ever be.

=Angelus=

09-24-2005, 02:02 PM

Emerald Aeris

09-24-2005, 03:10 PM

I posted a rant on this in another thread: http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1322007&postcount=44

So yeah, I see a whole lotta nothing when it comes to romance. There are a lot of emotional moments, but not what I'd consider indications of love. Just because emotional moments happen between a guy and girl doesn't mean it's love.

Scene examples: When Cloud finds Tifa in Aeris' church in the movie... His reaction doesn't seem like that of someone who loves her.

When Cloud comes back from the Ancient City to find a battle going on, he barely even looks at Tifa, let alone asks if she's ok.

When Cloud is "revived" near the end in Aeris' church, he doesn't only look at Tifa when he says "I'm home.", he's looking at everyone.

Some people speculated that the ribbons that Tifa and Cloud wear signify a bond, but you can see in the Bahamut fight that everyone wears them too.

"square can't make an official "relationship" because fans, for it or against it, will whine about it endlessly"

And why not? Square makes obvious couples in TONS of games, like, y'know, all of them except FF7. A lot of people think that Quistis and Squall would've made a better couple, but Square didn't leave it open in that game. Why would they care now? in fact, if Tifa and Cloud were meant to be together, why wouldn't they have made it for sure? Aeris is dead. It's not like her fans have any reason to think they could/should be together, it's impossible. The game is made open ended because there just isn't a definitive couple in FF7. I don't think it's Square using subtlety, I think their romantic relationship is nonexistant. And I like it that way. For once, a game without a mushy mushy couple.

"Since Aeris left together with Zack, I like to think they got together in the Lifestream."

Or they were both there to check on Cloud, since they're both his good friends.

"Just see the loving look in Tifa's eyes when she's looking at Cloud. There Cloud is also looking at Tifa at that point and smiling."

Cloud never returns that look. I just rewatched the movie. He's looking at everyone. At one point they make eye contact, but that's because she's the only one looking directly at him. How many people does Cloud look at like that in that scene? You're seeing what you want to see.

"Its obvious. It shows u in the begging. When she awnsers the phone, she says "Hello, this is the strife delivery service." Also, u see a photo of her, cloud, denzel and marlene. Bit obvious now aint it"

Because they have a business together? Or because Denzel is around? That's like saying Tifa and Barret were together in the game because of Tifa's bar and Marlene. It's pure fan-wishing. I think it's pretty natural for them to be around each other a lot since they've known each other the longest. Think about it, who else would he live with? I still don't think it means he loves her.

In the movie and the game Cloud has a lot of "flashback" moments, and most of them are about Aeris, not Tifa. I stick with that he has a special bond with both of them, but he's not in love with either.

Winter Nights

09-24-2005, 03:25 PM

ILYAS

09-24-2005, 09:45 PM

tifa says: "since we're not real family"

kikimm

09-24-2005, 09:52 PM

Personally, I always found that Tifa was better for Cloud, just like Quistis was more suited for Squall. But I like how they state nothing. Them not making any obvious statements allows the viewer to keep whatever notions they had for the characters.

I agree with this completely. The ambiguity of it all is part of the game, and if they made a real statement saying "This is how it is", I think that would ruin it.

TurkSlayer

09-24-2005, 09:58 PM

Actually, as far as why SE didn't expound on any love thems.. I've already seen a great many fans get all bent over the fact that Cloud's love for Aerith isn't specified and that Zack is with her. At the same time, other fans are desperately searching for hints of love for Tifa. If they would have specified that he loved either, the result would have been a bigger backlash than with FFX-2. It may sound stupid, but that's just how stupid alot of FF7 fans can be. FF7 is the fanbase's golden child. To screw with anyone's preconcieved notions of these characters would have been suicide for the movie.

Personally, I always found that Tifa was better for Cloud, just like Quistis was more suited for Squall. But I like how they state nothing. Them not making any obvious statements allows the viewer to keep whatever notions they had for the characters.

You know whats great about you, Autumn? You say everything I feel so that I don't have to. He's right, if Cloud had ended up with one of them, it just would have caused a lot of fanboys/girls to freak out and get angry with Square. Its stupid, but its true. I too feel Tifa is better for Cloud because A) Aeris never appealed to me, B)She just seems better for Cloud, and C) (And probably most importantly) Aeris is dead. But if Cloud ended up with Aeris, I wouldn't be that angry, and if he ended up with Tifa, I'd be slightly happy. But so many others just HATE the idea of Cloud being with the one they don't want him to be with. Like I said, stupid.

Squall+Quistis forever.

Craig

09-25-2005, 12:06 AM

Well they had a kid, it's that guy with the brown afro.

Pretty old lookin' for a 2 year old.

=Angelus=

09-25-2005, 01:48 AM

TurkSlayer

09-25-2005, 01:52 AM

You know whats great about you, Autumn? You say everything I feel so that I don't have to. He's right, if Cloud had ended up with one of them, it just would have caused a lot of fanboys/girls to freak out and get angry with Square. Its stupid, but its true. I too feel Tifa is better for Cloud because A) Aeris never appealed to me, B)She just seems better for Cloud, and C) (And probably most importantly) Aeris is dead. But if Cloud ended up with Aeris, I wouldn't be that angry, and if he ended up with Tifa, I'd be slightly happy. But so many others just HATE the idea of Cloud being with the one they don't want him to be with. Like I said, stupid.

Squall+Quistis forever.
What if Cloud died? *ponders*........

What, you want them to be together in death? I think he'd get tired of her after the first couple of hours. I don't know how he last through eternity.

=Angelus=

09-25-2005, 02:08 AM

Pivi

09-25-2005, 09:34 PM

In the movie and the game Cloud has a lot of "flashback" moments, and most of them are about Aeris, not Tifa. I stick with that he has a special bond with both of them, but he's not in love with either.
Yes, these're my thoughts also, with a little more interpretation, that I see Advent Children's future as Cloud and Tifa'll get together sooner or later. I saw some little sparks and clues between them that can be specified romantical (just my interpretation of course), but if there's romance between them, it's definitely the very beginning of a future CloudxTifa relationship.

Vaprice

09-26-2005, 12:14 AM

they are highschool sweethearts.

boys from the dwarf

09-26-2005, 07:44 AM

Teek

09-26-2005, 08:04 AM

That's funny. I thought they have been living together for some time (before Cloud contracted Geostigma and left his "family" behind).

At least you all aren't pairing Cloud and Aerith together again.

Pivi

09-27-2005, 08:24 PM

At least you all aren't pairing Cloud and Aerith together again.
There're people who does, mainly at adventchildren.net forums. :)

Masamune·1600

09-29-2005, 07:38 AM

Well they had a kid, it's that guy with the brown afro.

While it's already been stated that Denzel is neither Cloud nor Tifa's child, I thought I'd point out that his original parents are known. According to Kazushige Nojima's On the Way to a Smile, a novella which helps bridge FFVII and AC, Denzel's parents were named Abel and Chloe. Abel was a Shinra employee, promoted to head of section shortly before Shinra collapsed the Sector 7 plate. The family lived on the Sector 7 plate, and, given his position, Abel was forewarned. Denzel was sent to Sector 5, but Abel went looking for Chloe (who had run off). Both Abel and Chloe presumably died when the plate collapsed.

~Tenderness~

10-01-2005, 12:43 AM

There Cloud is also looking at Tifa at that point and smiling. The ending music is even titled "Cloud Smiles" in the soundtrack

Look at the way Cloud smiles in that scene. That little half smile. The one as emerald has already pointed out that he also gives the children.

Then look at the smile he gives after he has seen Aerith ;)

See the contrasts in Cloud's expressions during encounters with Aerith, the Bahamut scene, from straining eyes against the blindling light of Mega Flare to turning to a calmer clearer expression as Aerith is reflected in his eyes, the healing rain scene after Kadaj has been taken into the lifestream as Cloud stands with his face lifted to the sky smiling, smiling during Aerith's rain, and as I've already said the smile he gives after he's seen Aerith in church, after she's smiled at him :)

Pivi

10-01-2005, 08:42 AM

Yes, these're good points, but in my theory, these're not scenes where Cloud confesses his love to Aerith.

Massive :If You read "On the Way to a Smile - Case of Tifa", then in the first part Cloud starts to open up to Tifa, I think he starts to feel something new towards her. Those are just the first steps to "fell in love", but he makes them.
But after that, he's reminded about Aerith's death, he fell in depression, and starts to feel guilty. I think his guilt is not just about the death of Aerith, but about the thing that he started to feel something romantically towards Tifa, and thus he started to abandon his love for Aerith. He seeks her forgiveness from here on, not eternal love with her. Remember the scene where he tells Aerith what he wants: "I want forgiveness...Yes, forgiveness". He clearly states, that he wants her to forgive him, and thus he can move on with his life (and maybe with his new blooming fellings for Tifa). It's clear that Cloud not say anything like "I want to be with You", or something that states his feelings for Aerith.
So all in all, I think Cloud wants to get over Aerith, but he can't do this without her forgiveness. He will always have a part in his heart for Aerith, but not all of his heart as a "one and only" love.

Well, it's just my theory. :)

Sefie1999AD

10-01-2005, 12:54 PM

Well, it's just my theory. :)

But it's a pretty reasonable theory. It makes sense that Cloud would want to move on with his life and love, but he's not sure if that's what Aeris wants, so Cloud wants Aeris' forgiveness to "allow" him to move on. I think FFX-2 had a bit similar themes with Tidus and Yuna, as Yuna wasn't sure whether to move on with her life or still keep chasing for her lost love, and under certain conditions, you can decide about that: when the Fayth asks, "You want to walk together again?", you can either choose "Yes" or "It's better this way. He's already with me."

I haven't seen Last Order or read On the Way to a Smile, but how's Cloud and Tifa relationship described there? 5-7 years prior to FFVII, Cloud had a crush on Tifa, maybe even more, and Cloud only joined SOLDIER because he wanted to be strong enough, so that he'd never let Tifa get hurt again, so that she'd notice him. When Cloud came to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack, he was so ashamed of his weaknesses that he couldn't bear to tell Tifa that he was just a normal guard, so he just kept his helmet on to hide his identity. That's why Tifa tells Cloud in the Lifestream, "You weren't here. Cloud did not come to Nibelheim five years ago. I... waited. But, Cloud... never came."

When they were teenagers, Cloud had a crush on Tifa. When they were adults, Tifa had feelings for Cloud. What Cloud feels is the key question here, but I thought each FFVII player can decide about that themselves since in the game, you are Cloud, and you can choose how to treat each character in the game and that way decide who you go out with in the Gold Saucer date sequence.

Pivi

10-01-2005, 07:50 PM

But it's a pretty reasonable theory. It makes sense that Cloud would want to move on with his life and love, but he's not sure if that's what Aeris wants, so Cloud wants Aeris' forgiveness to "allow" him to move on.
Exactly. :)

how's Cloud and Tifa relationship described there?
Well, I don't really want to spoil it for You, it's worth a read. You can read it here:
http://xthost.info/ffwebnovel/

But if You want to know, here's the story in a nutshell:
I'm talking about Case of Tifa now. It shows how Cloud and Tifa started to live together (as friends, not as couple) after the events of Final Fantasy VII, and what did they do then. In the first part, it has some very massive clues that Cloud starts to feel something romantically towards Tifa, at one paragraph he just show a little affection (he's blushing because of that :)), so it clearly stated for me, that Cloud's heart do not belongs to only Aerith, but he has some blooming feelings for Tifa too.
But after a while, Cloud got a package from Aerith's "mother" (Cloud's a deliveryboy), and that reminds him of Aerith, and he fell in deep depression. His relationship with Tifa has a big distance from here on, but I really think that Cloud struggles, not only because he remembers Aerith's death, but because he really has some starting feelings for Tifa, and he wants forgiveness from Aerith because of this.
In one part he says that it's his problem, and he wants to settle it alone. Thus he can't settle his feelings with Tifa, because (I think) she's also a little part of his guilt.

But thus, at the ending of Advent Children, Cloud got the forgiveness from Aerith, and he can move on, and I think he won't hold back his blooming feelings for Tifa from this point.
Again, it's just my theory, there's no proof for it (but there's no proof for anything in the movie...). :)

Sefie1999AD

10-02-2005, 12:06 AM

Thanks. I'll read it when I have time. BTW That site mentions Chapters 1-4 and the Case of Tifa. Are there other cases there too, or does that site have everything translated?

Pivi

10-02-2005, 12:16 AM

Are there other cases there too, or does that site have everything translated?
As far as I know, it has everything translated. There's another novel with Aerith as the main heroine, but that's not translated yet.

OminousShock

10-02-2005, 03:02 AM

I personally didn't feel and see any love connection between Cloud and Tifa but I did feel and see some connection between Cloud and Aries which I don't want to go into detail because it could be a spoiler. Oh what the heck, I don't think it's a spoiler. Cloud seems diffrent when he had encounter with Aeris. Watch closely and read the dialogs. Theres more but it's spoilers!...Nooo!!! Oh well. ^_^

Quiksilver326

10-02-2005, 03:56 AM

I agree with that essay Pivi wrote.

Pivi

10-02-2005, 02:12 PM

Cloud seems diffrent when he had encounter with Aeris. Watch closely and read the dialogs.
Yes, he's different when they had an encounter, but I don't think it's so usual for Cloud to meet with someone who's dead. And of course, he was in love with her before she died (it isn't proved though anywhere), so he can have strange feelings when he actually encounters her. But I'm pretty sure, that he's not in love with her, he would act much differently in my opinion, if he was so full of love.

hhr1dluv

10-06-2005, 06:40 AM

trepiesfriend

10-06-2005, 08:27 AM

Um...maybe I'm hallucinating, but I could have sworn that Tifa was wearing some kind of ring (engagement ring? wedding band? any old ring?) in one of the scenes. I don't own Advent Children, so I can't check, but I think you can see it in the bedroom scene when Cloud and Tifa wake up in the same room and Cloud recounts what's been going on with him. I thought I saw Tifa with a ring...but then, it might have been on her right hand, which makes my point moot. Oh, I would've liked some Cloud/Tifa action in AC...::sighs::
yeah yoo r right, Tifa was wearing a ring (a cutie one, indeed). But I dont think that was her engagement ring, it was just a jewelry, ok?
And about Cloud's smile (was it?), maybe it was for everyone, not only Tifa. I consider it the way Cloud say bye to Aeris and Zack, though

Luv Cloud 4ever :love:

MoonliteAssassin

10-14-2005, 05:45 AM

Sorry if this has been said but I'm new, and I am sure the Cloud and Tifa relationship existed far before advent children, and feel that Cloud never loved Aeris romantically; to see this we must look back at FFVII as well. Abig hint to Cloud's feelings for Aeris is when he refers to her as Okaa-san in Advent Children which means mom, and Aeris interjects that this wasn't the first time that he said this, and that she wouldn't want a big kid like him. (Neither would I actually O.O;;; But Cloud sees her as a sister-like figure, if not a maternal figure and that love though unrequited, is not romantic in the sense that Cloud and Tifa have.

When Cloud and Tifa falls into the lifestream in Mideel, shortly after Cloud is what seems like Mako Poisoned forever, Tifa explores Cloud's insane mind, to free the real Cloud inside. In Cloud's mind, the truth behind everything is Cloud had strong feelings for Tifa. It isn't that Cloud wasn't fond of Aeris, but truthfully I believe that Zach loved Aeris and since Cloud created a memory or delusion of himself by using Zach's life, part of Cloud believed that he loved Aeris. Perhaps he (Cloud) did love Aeris like a sister or a companion, but at the end of the 2nd disk it reveals who Cloud really had eyes for.

after paying close attention through the whole game, my theory is (most) likely true. We all do remember how Cloud had mixed memories about Nibelheim 5 years ago, right? (Ahem, for those of you not at this part yet then of course you wouldn't understand any of this.) Well, seems like Cloud joined SOLDIER to impress Tifa, but it seems he didn't make it! He was embarressed and kept to himself through the whole mission, but the point remains he tried for Tifa. Not Aeris. Cloud stabbed Sephiroth at the reactor 5 years ago when he hurt Tifa, he risked his life and unveiled his true self for Tifa. Not for Aeris. He came to protect Tifa. Even if it was 5 years since then, I believe it didn't change. (Certainly wouldn't have for Aeris, right? Because he was playing on Zach's life)

Here another part that makes you believe why Cloud does, or should love Tifa. Like I said before, Tifa freed Cloud's mind while in the lifestream, Cloud revealed the many thoughts he had, most of them to do with Tifa, and the incident at Nibelheim. Tifa had hung out of three other boys when she was young, and Cloud had envied them, and when Tifa went to Mt. Nibel, Cloud tried to save her when she fell over the cliff. (Shows how ya never know?) It also reveals how Cloud thought Tifa hated him, how he wanted her attention. (Tifa's always saving Cloud's ass, this part I didn't get.) Again, not Aeris. The lifestream shows how Cloud had deep affection for Tifa, and although the arrival of Aeris slowed it, I'm positive, and believe me, didn't destroy it.

Again, I have more goodies for the Tifa fans about why again Cloud wouldn't love Aeris romantically. Aeris may have been attractive, even charming, but one reason remains to be dealt with, Aeris wasn't around as long as Tifa was. Once again about the lifestream, I do believe Cloud's Zach mix-up was what drew him to Aeris, because after Tifa freed him, he seemed to talk alot less about his feelings toward her, if he even did. That was also what drew Aeris to him, as well. Tifa also proved how her feelings were towards him, especially when Cloud seems disabled for life when he Mako Poisoned, Tifa says she doesn't care about anything but Cloud, and pledges her life to taking care of him. (That so... Beautiful! *pulls out a hanky*)

Cloud was with Tifa since childhood, he made the promise with her, and the deep affection he shows towards her at the end of disk 2 proves thier destiny. Speaking of destiny, if you defeated the demon gate at the Temple of the Ancients, and recieved Cait Sith's fortune about Cloud and Aeris destiny, then perhaps like Cait Sith's other fortunes, this one wasn't meant to be. (Only one did, Aeris death.)

If you an Aeris fan who are reading this didn't get to the end of disk 2, don't feel discouraged after reading this and screw the game, sometimes when I tend to not get my way to do that, just don't you! (Spoiled Brat?) Now, anyways, down to it. At the end of disk two, Cloud sends everyone off to find thier reason for saving the planet, (Excuse for time alone with Tifa, maybe?) and when everyone leaves, (except Cloud and Tifa, duh) They sit outside the Highwind and pour out thier emotions. (This part made me smile, dunno why) Tifa and Cloud both tell eachother how in their darkest moments they could hear each other calling out, Cloud says he's wanted to tell Tifa so much, but when they're alone can't think of anything. (Awww) Then Tifa says (Important! LISSEN) "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..." Then the camera zooms to the sky and night falls. (No, they don't do what you think... Or do they? :o) It's dawn, and Tifa wakes right next to Cloud, and they were gonna leave to find others... but decide this may be the last time they have time alone together. (Another love proving sentence :P) That's not the last time they do anything lovey-dovey I know, but this is excluding Advent Children.

In Advent children it is revealed that Cloud has great Guilt over Aeris's death. This is often thought by Cloud X Aeris fans as him harboring feelings for her, but in the movie it clearly shows that he just feels like he was responsable. He was feeling survivor's guilt like anyone would feel over losing their maternal friend or sister.

Another thing often accused by Cloud X Aeris fans is that their polar opposite personalities work together, because they are opposites. This is not a fact because the truth is what drew Aeris and Cloud together in the first place was Zach, Cloud's best friend. Cloud's attitude depending on how you use it in the game can rely on choices. I for one, never ended up with Aeris on the date, because they didn't really get along. Cloud was too moody.

Tifa was the only one devoted enough to accept him for who he was, she never entered the relationship with false expectations from Cloud, and he relays his affection for her in turn slowly(because he's afraid of rejection) , but he opens up. Aeris entered the relationship expecting Cloud to be like her first boyfriend Zach, and only then long afterwards was she ever interested in who he really was.This is what dampered me from Supporting Cloud X Aeris, but Aeris really was coping with the loss of her previous boyfriend, so I don't blame her entirely. But the fact that Aeris is currently dead, and now with the boyfriend she loved and the man she saw in Cloud, I see she has gotten some form of peace. so I think we leave her alone, she wanted Cloud to live happily anyway, not to die alone.

The fact that cloud DID say Tifa was his family. He said " I just can't protect anyone I don't think, not even my family..." Denzel is their adopted son. They refer to this when Barret says, "you go and protect your mom[Tifa] boy!" and Cloud left NOT because he felt guilty because he harbored romantic feelings for Aeris, but because he felt responsable for her death, and felt like he didn't do enough to save her."But, we just let her die." and once again Tifa and Aeris both help him in realizing that there was no need to carry all the burdens of guilt; that he was just blaming himself.

YES there is an engagement ring on Tifa's finger, and as for Cloud it's hard to tell because of those gloves he wears constantly.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7669/sengagementring0ap.png (http://imageshack.us)

if others find a pic can you post it?

I don't dislike Aeris, nor do I dislike the components of her character as much as it is assumed, but I do recognise the fact that the relationship between Cloud and Tifa is a strong and romantically involved relationship whereas him and Aeris are not.

Pivi

10-14-2005, 10:43 PM

Very nice essay, I like it. :)

But Cloud and Tifa have to open up for each other more, so they can finally become a "real" couple. I think Cloud started to open up in CoT (Case of Tifa), but he stopped, when he started to feeling depressed.

Oh, and that ring on Tifa's hand is not an engagement ring, it's a token for the family members (Marlene, Denzel and Barret also has one).

cleristhkilla

10-18-2005, 05:54 PM

Good post, you. :p Now I'm going to add some of my thoughts.

The first time I watched AC, I was ecstatic. By the time it ended, I knew for sure that it had Cloud/Tifa hints.

After the credits, if any of you have seen "Calling", well, the song is supposed to represent Cloud's emotions, but it is very open-ended. Cleris fans tend to take it romantically because Aeris appears in the video for like .3 seconds, when Cloud doesn't even see her. Personally, I see it as Cloud finally letting his guilt go away. (Thank god!) :choc2: And still, after that, there is a scene called "Reminiscence", which shows flashbacks of the game. You can also hear people calling Cloud on his phone. His friends. Yuffie sends him a "Temporary closed" sign for his shop. Cloud is then heard talking to Tifa telling her to close the shop, and that's he's making today a Holiday, and to also tell Denzel and Marlene. AVALANCHE is throwing a partay. :tongue: And I thought that was obvious, considering the picture of the team on his desk at the end of "Calling".

One thing Cloud is not doing is searching for Aeris for the rest of his life. She's dead, and it's not like she was his wife or anything. They didn't even know eachother well. Tifa has always been there for him, and the only thing that AC points to, in all honesty, is CloudxTifa. The scene at the end of AC with Aeris and Zack walking through the door is so perfect, one could take it as a ZackxAeris scene. I prefer it to be ZackxAeris and CloudxTifa, those have always been the true couples.

Sefie1999AD

10-18-2005, 09:53 PM

Nice points by MoonliteAssassin and cleristhkilla, I mostly agree with both of them. There's a few points, though. Cloud didn't take Zack's identity or personality, only Zack's past as a SOLDIER. Otherwise, Cloud was himself, remembering his childhood in Nibelheim, his promise to Tifa, his mother etc. That's why, I don't think Cloud got feelings for Aeris because of Zack. As far as I know, Cloud didn't even know about Aeris since Zack probably hadn't even told him about her. It could work the other way around, though: Aeris was attracted to Cloud because he reminded her of Zack.

About Cloud x Tifa, you people mentioned their love is romantic. Alright, it has the romantic side, which shows quite clearly at the end of Disc 2, but it has a lot more too. Life-time relationships need more than romantic feelings. Tifa seems to support Cloud with any problems, no matter how hard it is. She stayed on Cloud's side when he was totally messed up in Mideel. She helped Cloud find out the truth about himself. She stayed with Cloud on the Highwind after everyone left.

"Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back. As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared." Tifa said. And Cloud, while he's not exactly open about all his feelings, his actions show that he cares about Tifa and does everything to protect her and save her if she's in trouble. "After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help." I think Cloud and Tifa have what it takes for two people to have a succesful lifetime relationship. It's not only about romance, but also them mutually supporting and protecting each other.

About Cloud feeling guilt about Aeris' death in AC, I pretty much agree with MoonliteAssassin, though I'd like to add that maybe it wasn't just about Aeris; maybe it was about Tifa (and Marlene and Denzel) as well. Cloud once let Aeris die, he was unable to save her, so he was afraid that he wouldn't be able to protect Tifa and the children, either. He wasn't sure if he could protect those who he loves, so he decided not to act like they're family. However, seeing how at the end of AC, Cloud managed to rid himself of all the guilt and finally forgive himself, I see no reason why Cloud wouldn't now want to stay with his loved ones.

And still, after that, there is a scene called "Reminiscence", which shows flashbacks of the game. You can also hear people calling Cloud on his phone. His friends. Yuffie sends him a "Temporary closed" sign for his shop. Cloud is then heard talking to Tifa telling her to close the shop, and that's he's making today a Holiday, and to also tell Denzel and Marlene. AVALANCHE is throwing a partay. And I thought that was obvious, considering the picture of the team on his desk at the end of "Calling".

Those are good points. Though where is this "Reminiscence" scene? I only remember two photos (one with Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel, the other with the party members) showing after the song "Calling". What exactly happens in that scene? And does Cloud actually answer his mobile phone there? When his mobile phone sank to the bottom of the lake where Cloud buried Aeris, you could hear loads of messages left by Cloud's friends, indicating he never answers his phone (Tifa also points that out). :p

The essays written by you guys make Cloud and Tifa's love story seem amazingly deep. Great work! :D Keep up the good analysing.

cleristhkilla

10-19-2005, 12:25 AM

It comes on the Advent Children DVD, nad tells what happens after AC. AC and everything you can watch, like Reminiscence, are around the net on torrent sites. :p

RiTaPuffy

10-20-2005, 03:02 AM

Barret told Denzel to take care of "Mom", TIFA, DOHHH???? Got it guys?

TurkSlayer

10-20-2005, 03:35 AM

Nice points by MoonliteAssassin and cleristhkilla, I mostly agree with both of them. There's a few points, though. Cloud didn't take Zack's identity or personality, only Zack's past as a SOLDIER.

Perhaps not his idenity, but Cloud did seem to pick up some of Zack's personality traits, or at least Aeris seems to suggest this. If you get the date with Aeris, she will say "I want to meet you, Cloud. The real you." I'm fairly certain I misquoted that, but it was nearly the same. Anyway, this seems to suggest that Aeris had realized at this point that Cloud's similarity to Zack was too much of a coincidence, and had most likely realized that Cloud and Zack were somehow connected. Cloud's similarity to Zack was what attracted Aeris to Cloud, but not Cloud to Aeris. However, if you think about it, besides there experience in Midgar, their search for the black Materia, and (possibly) the Golden Saucer date, they didn't have as much of a connection as people think. I mean, unless you have Aeris in your party through the entire first disk, they have almsot no scenes involving each other. So why do people consider them such a close couple? Because he grieved at her death?So what? If Tifa had died, he would grieve just as much. Even if someone like Barret or Cid had died he would have grieved at least a little, though probably not to the same extent, and they probably would have gone down fighting. Now, Cloud and Tifa had many scenes suggesting there relationship, most of which took place after Disk 1. So really, they didn't have much of a relationship. Cloud grief was caused by guilty that he couldn't save her, not by the lose of his love.

maxdas

10-20-2005, 03:47 AM

i don't know much about Aeris or Aerith(whatever) but from what i saw in AC it is certainly obvious that he and Tifa could be something if only he could let go of Aeris with the whole guilt thing. and what the hell was up with that whole he's too large of a baby when he hears zack and aeris talk about him...

lets be honest here Cloud and Tifa go well together and another good scene was when he says his "burden has lightened" and instinctivly he waits for Tifa and she gets on the bike and the go on. i don't think we can expect for him to be immediately lubby dubby hopefully not. it'll take time and i hope in the next one it will be confirmed as Cloud and Tifa... was there ever anything between Cloud and Aeris?

i'm a guy and if i was to choose i'd go with Tifa, she's hot, smart, understanding, caring not totally girly and she can fight with the best of them... Aeris is just a freakin' flower girl... i mean how far was that going to go anyways..

that's just an honest guy's opininon... that should be enough

RiTaPuffy

10-20-2005, 03:51 AM

Barret told Denzel to take care of "Mom", TIFA, DOHHH???? Got it guys?
Guys~ they are married, enough said!

maxdas

10-20-2005, 04:03 AM

are you sure, if they were married and he was their kid, wouldn't she be more concerned when he goes to the old capitol. and i believe she would probably take rude and reno without a problem...

RiTaPuffy

10-20-2005, 11:20 AM

are you sure, if they were married and he was their kid, wouldn't she be more concerned when he goes to the old capitol. and i believe she would probably take rude and reno without a problem...
lol well...
Denzel never call tifa "mom".... so...

TurkSlayer

10-20-2005, 01:30 PM

was there ever anything between Cloud and Aeris?

No, not really, as I stated in my last post.

FFVIII Fan

10-20-2005, 07:02 PM

i was so raging when cloud didnt end up with tifa, they're made for each other.:mad: im not into roance all that much but i think it was stupid they didnt end up together. They're better be a sequel.

TurkSlayer

10-22-2005, 01:13 AM

i was so raging when cloud didnt end up with tifa, they're made for each other.:mad: im not into roance all that much but i think it was stupid they didnt end up together. They're better be a sequel.

True, it is pretty obvious that, should SE be forced to make a choice (and I doubt they really will), they would most likely make it CloudxTifa. However, if they did do it, it would simply spark a huge arguement with all of the Aeris fans, which is probably a little larger than the Tifa lovers.

Lynx

10-22-2005, 03:59 AM

kikimm

10-22-2005, 04:33 AM

TurkSlayer

10-22-2005, 05:12 AM

umm didnt anyone else notice the ribbon on clouds arm and the one on tifas? there wedding bands i bet. and cloud had his under his sleave but then he rips the sleave off and you can see it.

denzel has got to be there adopted son. thats why tifa says there not a real family. maybe for some reason cloud cant have kids? who knows what that mako energy did to him. oh and the reasons hes got to be adopted is cause theres no way hes 2 years old.

No my friend, the bands are not wedding bands. Sometimes, when a person dies, they wear black ribbons to remember them. In Advent Children, they wear pink ones to remember Aeris. As for Denzel, I have yet to see the movie, but I'm assuming that he is merely and orphan Tifa is taking care of.

Lynx

10-22-2005, 06:16 AM

ohh didnt notice anyone else wearing it but your proably right makes more sense with it being about aries death. but umm i still think there married or have some kind of relationship.

TheAbominatrix

10-22-2005, 06:17 AM

They arent married. They do have the beginnings of relationship, which went a bit sour after Cloud had a guilt trip from a delivery from Aerith's mother to the place of Aerith's death. Read Case of Tifa and On the Way to a Smile.

Sefie1999AD

10-22-2005, 01:34 PM

The ribbons they are wearing are a symbol of their friendship and how they're all fighting together. Cloud's wearing one, so is Tifa, and so are Barret, Cid and Yuffie. I don't remember seeing Vincent, Red XIII and Cait Sith with ribbons, but I'll see if they have them too. In addition, Ribbons were arguably the best accessories in FFVII since they protected you from all status ailments.

EDIT: Vincent, Red XIII and Cait Sith also have Ribbons in AC. And by the way, the Ribbons are red, not pink.

TurkSlayer

10-22-2005, 03:10 PM

Christmas

10-22-2005, 04:04 PM

Dominus-Ifrit

10-24-2005, 02:23 AM

Cloud and Aeris are more like soul-mates. And I think Tifa knows this real well, she's willing to have cloud on any level as long as she can have him.. she's ignoring his love for Aeris so she can love him. I never felt like Cloud felt the same for Tifa as Tifa does for Cloud.

TheAbominatrix

10-24-2005, 02:43 AM

I think that ignores that Tifa was willing to put aside her feelings for Cloud indefinitly to help him through the troubles he was having. She never once so much as hit on him. That doesnt fit the profile of someone who is so desperate to have someone that they would take whatever they could get.

Not that your opinion is invalid, I just dont think the facts support that part of your statement.

raskerino

10-24-2005, 03:11 AM

I totally agree with Abonimatrix here, and will add (though he may not agree) that Aeris was much more the type to ignore Tifa's feelings which she did frequently and I felt quite nastily. But this was went over in the why do u hate Aeris thread.

Dominus-Ifrit

10-24-2005, 03:28 PM

I never said Tifa was desperate, she doesnt hit on him in the movie. Aeris was more of a competitive girl, if you recall from ff7, she made more than a few gestures where she would just take cloud and go off. I'll get you exact details later today, but when I said Tifa ignores how cloud feels about Aeris, I meant it in the way that she knows how those two felt for each other, but when you have one person who is dead and there is no possibility of ever being togethor again, she herself has to decide if she will go after cloud anymore or not. She is respectful and mindful of cloud's feelings.

I personally, always felt that cloud should have been with Tifa. Aeris was amazing, no doubt, but Tifa seems to have been a real old pal and she's a fighter so I'm sure she's been by his side fighting many times. They in a sense (to me) are more meant for each other than Aeris and Cloud, but hey.. opposites do and DID attract.

zo-sama

10-24-2005, 10:57 PM

Personally, I think Tifa is in love with Cloud, but it is unrequited. It seemed kinda obvious to me, especially at the end of the movie where she's givin' him "the look."

The way Cloud responds to Aeris makes me believe he still really loves Aeris. Aaaand in conclusion, Aeris loves Zack. They both revisit Cloud to make sure he's ok, but they do it togeather. It really seemed like they were a couple just by the way they handled it in the movie.

TheAbominatrix

10-24-2005, 11:02 PM

"she's willing to have cloud on any level as long as she can have him.." When you say this, my above statement applies. Tifa doesnt want Cloud on 'any level'. If she did, she could have had him. Hell, she could have messed with his mind further in the Lifestream. Tifa cares very strongly for Cloud, but she's willing to let him go and let him be with Aerith (pre-death) and to let him feel as he will.

I understand what you're saying, but I just wanted to clear up my interpretation of that.

We see, however, that Aerith doesnt seem willing (pre-death) to let Cloud love Tifa. Especially in the ways we see love points handed out (check the FAQ at RPGamer). There's at least one instance where Cloud being downright mean to Tifa will increase points with Aerith, while, in that same situation, being mean to Aerith will decrease points to both girls.

That being said, aside from the optional feelings the player decides upon and the results of those, Cloud doesnt show much affection at all for either girl. He quite clearly cares very deeply for both of them, but he never shows it in any sort of romantic way. What we see is both girls liking Cloud, not Cloud liking either of them, so I dont think there are any overt feelings from Cloud's side for either girl to ignore.

zo-sama, you may wanna read Case of Tifa, which is translated in a link earlier in this thread.

zo-sama

10-25-2005, 01:18 AM

zo-sama, you may wanna read Case of Tifa, which is translated in a link earlier in this thread.
Thanks, I gave it a little read, but I still feel the same way. Although he does blush when he says those things to Tifa, I can't necessarily say it's because he likes her. I interpret it in the way that he is sharing a sensitive part of himself he doesn't usually share with people, thus making him blush. I know I'm worming around the facts, but just think about it. I guess it all comes down to Square-Enix and everyone not wanting to make fans angry about the pairings they choose. I guess it's all probably just personal preference. Btw, that was a spiffy website!

TheAbominatrix

10-25-2005, 02:03 AM

I definitly agree, I just thought you may be interested. Your opinion is perfectly valid.

And I agree as well, strongly, on SE not wanting to make anyone mad by setting down a canon relationship for Cloud.

Dominus-Ifrit

10-25-2005, 05:55 AM

Okay, maybe I read way too much into this detail we are all forgetting.. doesn't cloud have this extremely spiritual/depressing/metaphysical moment where he is putting Aeris dead body into the little lake/ lifestream? The way he looks at her and she looks back at him, in all the fmv's in ff7 show me they had like an unspoken love. When Aeris died, cloud was torn apart.

And about Aeris and Zack.. I didn't think about that till now, but was Zack the one to initially go into mt. niebelhem (spelling?) and try to save Aeris and go after Sephiroth?

PS - Didn't Cloud leave Tifa with Barrett's gang at the bar while he went off to join SOLDIER?

TheAbominatrix

10-25-2005, 06:15 AM

But who is to say he wouldnt have done the same for Tifa? I'm positive that had Tifa died, or had Barret died, or whatever, he would have had an extremely emotional moment. People act like he was only upset that she died because he loved her, but first and foremost he was her friend. Even if he loved her, he would have been extremely torn apart by the death of Tifa. Even if he loves Tifa, Aerith's death still tore him apart.

All we see is Cloud lowering her body into the water. Any emotions you percieve are, of course, your own interpretations.

You have the events of the game rather muddled, though. Here's a bare bones timeline for you, with a bit of emphasis on the events you're confused with.
-Tifa and Cloud grow up together in Nibelheim
-Cloud leaves Nibelheim to join SOLDIER
-Cloud fails to make it in SOLDIER, but does become a grunt.
-Cloud as a grunt, the SOLDIER Zack, and the infamous Sephiroth come to Nibelheim on a mission. Cloud never reveals himself to Tifa.
-Sephiroth goes crazy and slaughters the townspeople before going to the Reactor, where he kills Tifa's father. Tifa goes after her father and is wounded. Zack fails to stop Sephiroth, ultimately Cloud does.
-Tifa, barely alive, is taken to Midgar by her martial arts instructor.
-Cloud and Zack are taken to the Shin Ra mansion basement and experimented on by Hojo for 5 years.
-Tifa starts a new life in Midgar, and eventually meets Barret and joins AVALANCHE due to her hatred of the Shin Ra for the events in Nibelhiem.
-Cloud and Zack escape to Midgar, Cloud in a catatonic state. Zack is killed and Cloud is found by Tifa at the train station, in Zack's uniform.

silentchild

10-30-2005, 07:55 AM

But who is to say he wouldnt have done the same for Tifa? I'm positive that had Tifa died, or had Barret died, or whatever, he would have had an extremely emotional moment.

A valid interpretation, but you can also take into consideration the fact that he had thought Tifa had died once in FF7.

The Nibelheim incident. When Sephiroth attacks Tifa, Cloud recites, "I thought you were a goner......I was really sad." This shows he thought she died. However, let us observe the difference in his reactions towards Tifa's 'death' and Aerith's 'death'.

Tifa's death :
Cloud carefully puts her leaning against a pod and immediately charges in after Sephiroth.
"Soldier: Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back... I had so much respect for
you... I admired you..."

And we get Cloud's crowning moment of throwing Sephiroth into the Mako pit. Notice how Cloud seems more focused on his hatred and dissapointment towards Sephiroth rather than grief over Tifa's 'death'.

Now for Aerith's death :

Cloud: ...Aerith. This can't be real!
Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!
Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?
Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Game script from : http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_vii_script_d1.txt

IF Cloud was not showing any emotion like you claim, why would SEPHIROTH claim that Cloud is 'acting like you are sad'? If you look, Cloud shows a lot more emotion over Aerith's 'death', even going as far as to say, "The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing."
Whereas if compared to Tifa's death, he seems much more focused on Sephiroth, sharing his grief equally over his mom, Tifa AND Nibelheim.
During Aerith's death he speaks in a much more personal manner : "What about US? What are WE supposed to do?"
The rest of the party also offer consolation to Cloud, they let him have his own private little moment with him laying her to peace, which implies that they all KNEW that Aerith meant somoething MORE to Cloud compared to them.

Also, if you read MoTP, it is quoted, "At Cloud's face as he barely held himself together, his mind on the brink of shattering, with the sadness at the loss of her, and the anger and hatred for the one who took her life."

....barely held himself together......on the brink of shattering.....sadness at the loss of her.....do you still stand by your take that CLoud shows no emotion over her death?

Thus your claim that :

All we see is Cloud lowering her body into the water. Any emotions you percieve are, of course, your own interpretations.

Debunked.

Sefie1999AD

10-30-2005, 11:27 AM

When Cloud came to avenge Tifa and Nibelheim in the reactor, he was full of rage and probably in panic after everything he saw, and at least he couldn't think clearly. He was also only 16 at that point. It's been said in the game that Cloud wanted to do everything to make Tifa notice him, and he did fulfill his promise to Tifa that if she ever was in trouble, he'd come and help her.

What's this MoTP you're talking about? I've never heard about it. Even so, the FMV in the game doesn't show Cloud having any sadness or being close to shattering when he's dropping Aeris' body to the water. So the game debunks that too. :p As for Cloud's speech to Sephiroth when Aeris died, I think he made a similar speech to Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It was in Cloud's Kalm flashback, but it doesn't sound like Zack and could fit Cloud, so I think it was Cloud who said it:

CLOUD: "What about MY sadness!? My family... friends... The sadness of having my hometown taken away from me!? It's the same as your sadness!"

Okay, you could claim it was Zack who said that, but since that speech is so much similar to Cloud's speech when Aeris dies, you can come to the conclusion that the Zack part of Cloud (the part that made him care about Aeris) made Cloud act so emotional when Aeris died. In addition, I think in the PC version, Cloud said: "What is this pain!? My fingers are tingling, my mouth is dry, my eyes are burning!" which makes sense when Sephiroth asks him, "Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?"

Oh, and do you remember after Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the reactor?

CLOUD: "Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back..." (stabs)
CLOUD: "I had so much respect for you... I admired you..."

Cloud walks back, and turns away. It looks like he's crying or at least trying to hold his tears.

Finally, after Cloud returns from the Lifestream at Disc 2, I don't see him talking much about Aeris or grieving over her death. I think Disc 2 and Disc 3 are all Cloud-Tifa. Okay, you can treat Tifa badly and not take her in your party and just keep Aeris there, but it's also just as possible to treat Tifa well and keep her together with Cloud all the time while being rude to Aeris ("you were the slum drunk", dropping all the wrong barrels, "Tifa is your girlfriend? / Yes, that's right" etc) and never having Aeris in your party.

silentchild

10-30-2005, 12:27 PM

What's this MoTP you're talking about? I've never heard about it.

Maiden Over The Planet / Maiden Flowing Through The Planet / Hoshi o Meguru Otome - whatever you want to call it. It's the official Aerith Novella included in FFVII - Ultimania Omega and consists of seven chapters. So far only the Prelude and Chapter Six have been translated. I would share the link, but my browser isn't working at the moment. I can edit this post with the link later.

Even so, the FMV in the game doesn't show Cloud having any sadness or being close to shattering when he's dropping Aeris' body to the water. So the game debunks that too. :p

Sorry, no. Please refer to limitations of computer graphics waaay back in 1997.

As for Cloud's speech to Sephiroth when Aeris died, I think he made a similar speech to Sephiroth in Nibelheim.

It was in Cloud's Kalm flashback, but it doesn't sound like Zack and could fit Cloud, so I think it was Cloud who said it:

You think? Sorry, not going to take that point then. What 'you think' has nothing to do with me, especially not in a debate.

In addition, I think in the PC version, Cloud said: "What is this pain!? My fingers are tingling, my mouth is dry, my eyes are burning!" which makes sense when Sephiroth asks him, "Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?"

Sorry, NO. Sephiroth states that sentence AFTER Cloud says that line. So no, your interpretation is not valid.

Cloud walks back, and turns away. It looks like he's crying or at least trying to hold his tears.

So? Your point is?

Finally, after Cloud returns from the Lifestream at Disc 2, I don't see him talking much about Aeris or grieving over her death.

Gee....I wonder.

You want a very nice breakdown of Cloud interactions with Tifa and Cloud's references to Aerith in Disc 2 and 3?

Look here : http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Read it before trying to tell me that Cloud is all about Tifa in Disc 2 and 3.

Okay, you can treat Tifa badly and not take her in your party and just keep Aeris there, but it's also just as possible to treat Tifa well and keep her together with Cloud all the time while being rude to Aeris ("you were the slum drunk", dropping all the wrong barrels, "Tifa is your girlfriend? / Yes, that's right" etc) and never having Aeris in your party.

Same applies to Tifa, no? You can ALSO choose to tell Aerith that Tifa is NOT your girlfriend. Besides, Johnny also refers to Aerith as Cloud's 'new girlfriend' and that is NOT optional.

Aerith is also the DEFAULT DATE for Cloud. Even if you score the same affection points will Tifa, you will still go on the date with Aerith.

Let me share a tip with you, pal. The Dating Mechanism is NOT a good thing to use in debates, especially as it puts Tifa in a complete disadvantage.

TheAbominatrix

10-30-2005, 12:54 PM

When I'm more awake, I'll get to responding to all this. I'd just like to say real quick that I didnt mean he showed no emotion, I meant that all the 'longing' or whatever perceived in the FMV is just perception. He looked the same as always to me, as did Aerith, because of the graphics.

Sefie1999AD

10-30-2005, 12:56 PM

Maiden Over The Planet / Maiden Flowing Through The Planet / Hoshi o Meguru Otome - whatever you want to call it. It's the official Aerith Novella included in FFVII - Ultimania Omega and consists of seven chapters. So far only the Prelude and Chapter Six have been translated. I would share the link, but my browser isn't working at the moment. I can edit this post with the link later.

I don't trust those novellas since they conflict with the game's story. Case closed.

Sorry, no. Please refer to limitations of computer graphics waaay back in 1997.

I won't, especially when that was an FMV where character emotions are showed in the best way they can be. If SNES FFs can portray character emotions well enough, surely PSX FFs can. And Cloud didn't look especially sad when dropping Aeris.

You think? Sorry, not going to take that point then. What 'you think' has nothing to do with me, especially not in a debate.

Well, there's two choices:
1) It was Cloud who said that (which I think). If that's true, it means Cloud was devastated by the loss of Tifa and his hometown.
2) It was Zack who said that. If that's true, it means Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aeris died.

Either way, either Cloud is just as devastated about Aeris' death than when he thought Tifa would die, OR he wasn't devastated about Aeris' death at all since it was Zack's feelings.

So? Your point is?

When Cloud was crying there, he was devastated by loads of things, like his hometown being burned, Tifa being near-dead and him having to fight Sephiroth.

Sorry, NO. Sephiroth states that sentence AFTER Cloud says that line. So no, your interpretation is not valid.

My turn: So? Your point is?

Gee....I wonder.

You want a very nice breakdown of Cloud interactions with Tifa and Cloud's references to Aerith in Disc 2 and 3?

Look here : http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Read it before trying to tell me that Cloud is all about Tifa in Disc 2 and 3.

Sorry, NO. Especially when you're clearly biased for Cloud x Aeris.

Same applies to Tifa, no? You can ALSO choose to tell Aerith that Tifa is NOT your girlfriend. Besides, Johnny also refers to Aerith as Cloud's 'new girlfriend' and that is NOT optional.

Aerith is also the DEFAULT DATE for Cloud. Even if you score the same affection points will Tifa, you will still go on the date with Aerith.

Let me share a tip with you, pal. The Dating Mechanism is NOT a good thing to use in debates, especially as it puts Tifa in a complete disadvantage.

Yeah, but the dating mechanism also determines the scene between Cloud and Tifa at the end of Disc 2. And I have it easier time getting on a date with Tifa than with Aeris, especially when you can get Tifa 20+ affection points before you've even met with Aeris. Besides, what YOU choose (to get Aeris) has nothing to do with me. :p

Oh, and when thinking about who Cloud gets, Aeris dies at the end of Disc 1, which puts her in a complete disadvantage, actually, out of the equation.

silentchild

10-30-2005, 03:55 PM

I don't trust those novellas since they conflict with the game's story. Case closed.

Ok.

And Cloud didn't look especially sad when dropping Aeris.

Well, are you saying his lines :

Cloud: ...Aerith. This can't be real!
Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!
Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?
Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

Well, there's two choices:
1) It was Cloud who said that (which I think). If that's true, it means Cloud was devastated by the loss of Tifa and his hometown.
2) It was Zack who said that. If that's true, it means Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aeris died.

Please explain what do you mean by "Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aerith died." First off, how on earth do you know how ZACK feels? Are you Zack?

Once again, please show me evidence when stating points. I won't accept any of your 'I think' as evidence unless there is solid proof backing it up.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

Either way, either Cloud is just as devastated about Aeris' death than when he thought Tifa would die, OR he wasn't devastated about Aeris' death at all since it was Zack's feelings.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

Just to note, I did not write it.

On Aeris Being Interested in Cloud For The “Zack” In Him by Carlatta

Now another argument I commonly hear against the Cloud x Aeris supporters is that Aeris was only interested in Cloud for the “Zack” in him. Now it is very understandable to believe this once the game progresses a bit, but in the end it is found this is not the case for two reasons:

1. Aeris realizes that Cloud and Zack are two very different people

We know Aeris definitely sees that Cloud is not Zack and how the two really contrast greatly in character (refer to my last post concerning this issue, I believe on page 46?) but once this is discovered does that mean Aeris is no longer interested in Cloud? The answer is no, which leads into the second reason:

2. Aeris and Zack’s relationship was either not as strong or not as important to Aeris as most gamers take it to be

This is controversial among gamers but there is actual evidence to finally support this idea.

Let’s start with number two because it will be easier to show that their relationship was not that big and then lead into why she didn’t see Cloud for the “Zack” in him. To begin Zack is first mentioned while Aeris and Cloud are sitting on top of the cat slide in sector six talking to one another. Zack was not mentioned by name but by his relation to Aeris. Here is the conversation.

Aeris "What rank were you?"
Cloud "Rank?"
Aeris "You know, in SOLDIER."
Cloud "Oh, I was...First Class."
Aeris "Just the same as him."
Cloud "The same as who?"
Aeris "My first boyfriend."
Cloud "You were... serious?"
Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."
Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"
Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Like I said before this is the first time Zack is brought into the game and this little conversation tells a lot about her present feelings at the time. When Aeris first asks what rank Cloud is, it shows how she has already noticed some similarity between the two considering the question came a bit out of nowhere and also when looking at her response to his answer.

Aeris "Just the same as him."

It shows how she is making a comparison between the two and remembering certain things about Zack through Cloud. Cloud then goes on to ask who she is speaking of.

Aeris "My first boyfriend."

This is the first time we find out that Aeris and Zack were a pair (couple) at some time before the game actually begins. We however are not given much information on it such as how long it lasted and since she seems to speak so openly about it, her personality and mood during this period kind of shows that the whole discussion is more or less everyday conversation. Aeris is a very emotional character, so if this relationship was so serious why wouldn’t she show more emotion instead of just sitting on the slide and talking like it was just one of many memories. Wait? Was it serious?

(Continued)

Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."

Cloud asks openly if her and Zack’s relationship “really” meant something to her and she flat out says no. Kind of a personal question, but her answer doesn’t make it seem so. She even shakes her head quickly as if to emphasis this. Actions and words both speak loud in this case. Cloud then continues seeing she isn’t deeply hurt in discussing the topic.

Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"

This part I find most interesting. If Aeris was so obsessed with Zack, wouldn’t she go crazy at hearing this? Cloud might have known him, he says. Now at this point in the game we as the gamer don’t know what is to come, so all we really know, along with Aeris, is that Cloud could very well know this mysterious SOLDIER. So therefore if Cloud may know him than he also might be able to tell what happened to him, what they had done together in SOLDIER (if they happened to be old buddies), and above all else to Aeris WHERE ZACK MIGHT BE!!! Yes we later find out Zack died, but Aeris does not know this and I don’t think it is even found out on disk one at that. So shouldn’t Aeris be jumping for joy with this new hope of finding her love again? But, what’s this? What does she say?

Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Funny, how Aeris could have told Cloud Zack’s name and perhaps with his help found Zack so she could be with him. Remember again that Aeris doesn’t know that Zack is dead and that Cloud (at this point in the game, work with me&#33 doesn’t know him. Doesn’t she even want to try? Doesn’t seem like it, does it? So does this mean that Zack didn’t mean as much to Aeris in a romantic way as we thought he did?

Not enough for some people to believe? Alright, let’s continue on in the game. The next scene in which Aeris openly talks about Zack with Cloud is at Gongaga, should you choose to have her in your party. Zack’s parents, if you go in to their house, talk about Zack (kind of unimportant) than later ask Aeris if she was this girlfriend Zack talked about in one of his letters. She leaves without saying anything and Cloud has the option to go and speak with her. Here is a part of there conversation.

(They speak about Zack and how he was Aeris’s boyfriend and all)
Cloud "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him."
Aeris "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."

That’s all in the past now. Doesn’t this confirm what I’ve said before? Right there in that statement Aeris states she has moved on from whatever her and Zack had had. The dialogue continues.

Cloud "Missing?"
Aeris "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back. He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else...”
Aeris "Hey? What's wrong?"

Now after saying this if Aeris was indeed very depressed over the whole Zack thing wouldn’t she have been quiet afterward or shown some sort of emotion? But instead she asks Cloud what’s wrong, indicating how nothing should be upsetting after having this conversation. Kind of funny how she bounces back so quickly after being very depressed over Zack. Anyway, the conversation continues.

Choice Poor guy
(jealous... envious...) [========={If you pick this one all Aeris does is tease Cloud for being jealous of Zack. Doesn’t this show how she distinguishes between the two and doesn’t see them as being the same? Just a thought, but that is not the focus so we will choose the option in Cloud x Tifa favor just for kicks}

(Continued)

Aeris "I don't really mind that I haven't heard from him. But I feel for his parents."

But if she was in love with him, wouldn’t she mind? This confirms what I have said before. Good ol` Aeris always feeling for others. She feels bad that his parents have been suffering over their son being missing, she doesn’t feel bad that she is not able to be with him because he is missing. Yes Aeris is worried about his well being, but this shows more of a friendship type relationship (if even that) that she most likely now holds toward Zack.

The big question concerning all that’s been said is probably why doesn’t Aeris find or think that it matters, as she has said a couple of times now. The answer is simple. She doesn’t find it important to dwell in the past. I remember once reading an interview with Hironobou Sakaguchi in which he said Aeris is basically the symbolism of life and living for the future. This is pretty apparent, what does Aeris always talk about? The future. She says one day she will get out of Midgar, listen to the planet and go find her promised land. Aeris tells about how much she would like to take a ride on the highwind sometime. In the temple of the ancients, she says that later the group will look back at all these hard times and laugh. Lastly, she says she would come back when it was all over. In the game, whose main theme is LIFE, the personification of it is displayed through Aeris. It’s the way the developers personally start to involve the player with the theme. Many complain about Aeris’s personality being too happy and lively but her personality was designed this way because of the life and hope for the future she displays. Zack represents the past and death. Aeris character which always looks toward the future would be breaking her symbolism by dwelling in the past and clinging to Zack.

Now I can FINALLY move onto reason number 1, but don’t worry, it won’t be quite that long. Okay so Aeris realizes Cloud and Zack are not the same person. In the beginning it is logical to believe that Aeris was initially attracted to Cloud because his gestures and SOLDIER background reminded her of Zack. This however does not mean she was obsessed with Zack, that happens to be far from the truth (as I have already explained). It was something that caught her attention, most likely reminded her of Zack, which led to wonder and curiosity. It resulted in her wanting to know more about Cloud. I remember one Cloud x Tifa supporter had said that Aeris never shows interest in getting to know Cloud. Sure she does! Think back to Cloud’s explanation of the Nibelheim incident that happened five years ago and when he goes into his old home where his mother lives.

(Continued)

Cloud "This is... my house. It has nothing to do with that incident five years ago."
Barret "Yo wait, I wanna hear."
Aeris "Me too! It's been a long time, right?"

True, Barret shows interest in Cloud’s personal past and the rest of the group perhaps does as well. Aeris, in this scene, shows a great interest in Cloud’s (not Zack’s) past. She gets excited (“Me too!”) and kind of pushes him on to discuss it (“It’s been a long time, right?”). Another example can be taken from what Marlene tells Cloud in Aeris’s house after Aeris is kidnapped.

Marlene "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

Aeris wants to know what kind of character he (Cloud not Zack) has. It’s apparent she has an interest in Cloud at this point and wants to know him more. Why else would she ask Marlene about him? If she thought he was Zack or whatever that concept is, wouldn’t she already know Zack good enough therefore there being no need to ask what kind of person he is? So how do we know for sure that Aeris sees Cloud and not Zack? The answer is clearly stated in this last scene I post which occurs in the gondola on Cloud and Aeris’s date.

Aeris ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture...I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
Aeris "But you're different."
Aeris "Things are different..."
Aeris "Cloud...I'm searching for you..."
Cloud "............?"
Aeris "I want to meet you."
Cloud "But I'm right here."
Aeris (I know, I know... what I mean is...) "I want to meet..... you."

Just like she said, she wanted to meet him....Cloud.

END ESSAY

And for the other one...

Cloud Did Not Become Zack by Carlatta

I never did understand the argument about Cloud in disk one not being the "real" Cloud and that during this time period he was more or less Zack.

Many Cloud x Tifa supporters use the fact that Cloud had his past mixed up all the while he knew Aeris and because of this Cloud was not allowed to be true to himself. The funny thing about this argument however is that memories and character are two very different aspects of a person. Character makes a person who they are and Cloud confused his memories with Zack, not his character. Proof? Zack was more of an outgoing and caring character when you see him in the few scenes of Nibelheim and him and Cloud's escape to Midgar. Zack, for example, directly gave friendship to Cloud in which Zack talked to him, kind of joked with him, and helped him when Cloud was hurt (Escape from Midgar Sequence). Cloud's character is one completely different from that shown by Zack.

Cloud, when the player first meets him in the beginning of the game, is perceived as a cold, antisocial, and uncaring person who only wants money and worries about the well-being of no one. Zack also is described by Aeris in Gongaga as being and I quote her in saying, "he loved women, a real ladies man." Cloud seems to be particularly uninterested in this specific area which can be shown from his less than enthusiastic responses to his mother's discussion concerning him getting a girlfriend in his flashback of the visit he had with her in Nibelheim. As shown in the truck on the way to Nibeheim in the real flashback sequence, Zack was talkative and caring asking how everyone was doing and if Cloud was alright with his motion sickness. Cloud in the beginning of the game basically only says what needs to be and holds a overall, "I don't care" and "It's not my problem" attitude.

If ANYTHING what only can be seen is that Cloud and Zack's personalities are almost completely contrasting. Cloud and Zack's personalities are in no way anything alike when compared with what information is given to us in the game. So then it can be concluded that the only thing that Cloud has inherited from Zack was some of his memories and gestures as well. So then the real reason most see Cloud before he "finds himself" in the lifestream as the "fake" Cloud is because his memories are mixed up and confused. This in itself brings up an interesting topic, that being does the past really make us who we are? This can be answered more by opinions but the answer to this question doesn't quite address the real issue. This issue being that just because Cloud did not know the truth about a certain part of his past does that mean he was truly incapable of loving another. Remember Cloud only had a certain part of his past mixed up, that being the Nibelheim experience five years ago and his involvement in SOLDIER. He remembered he was born in Nibelheim and not Gongaga like Zack was and Cloud also remembered bits and pieces of some conversations he had with his mother in Nibelheim.

Because of this I fail to see how Cloud's past in SOLDIER and the Nibelheim incident five years ago can affect his relationship that he had with Aeris. This was the past which had nothing to do with Aeris, she was the present. Tifa however was a part of this mixed up past. If that in itself holds a deeper meaning who's to say, that's more of the gamer's opinion.

Holy crap, that sure was long. Hope it doesn't intimidate you.

My turn: So? Your point is?

I've stated my point. Your interpretation for that sentence is not valid.

Sorry, NO. Especially when you're clearly biased for Cloud x Aeris.

I didn't make that site. It is a detailed look at the number of interactions between Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aeris throughout the game based on the game's script. You don't want to look at evidence I give you, fine.

And of course I'm biased Cloud and Aeris, else what on earth am I doing in here in the first place. You are pretty biased Cloud and Tifa yourself, you don't see me insulting you for favouring that pairing.

Yeah, but the dating mechanism also determines the scene between Cloud and Tifa at the end of Disc 2.

So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

Last Night Under the Highwind: High Affection Version by Perceivence

An analysis of the Last Night scene should begin with Cloud’s speech in the preceding scene when he tells everyone to go find what they’re fighting for. Let’s take a closer look at that moment:

Cloud "What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that."

Cloud "Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's all fine."

Cloud "But really, is that really how it is?"

Cloud "For me, this is a personal feud."

Cloud "I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past."

Cloud "Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that."

Cloud "I've been thinking."

….

Cloud "I think we all are fighting for ourselves."

Cloud "For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us."

Cloud "That's what we're fighting for."

Cloud "That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

…..

Cloud "I know why I'm fighting."

Cloud "I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."

Cloud "But besides that, there's something personal too..."

Cloud "A very personal memory that I have."

Cloud "What about you all?"

This is a very interesting speech that Cloud makes to the others before he tells them to leave the Highwind. During this speech, Cloud says that they are all fighting for that someone… something… whatever it is, that’s important to each of them. Then Cloud tells us why he is fighting. He says that he is fighting for a “very personal memory” that he has. Is that “very personal memory” more likely to be Aerith or Tifa?

Tifa is standing right there on the bridge of the Highwind as he is saying this to everyone, so she is not a memory. This also means that Tifa is not that special someone or something that is important to him. What is important to Cloud is this “very personal memory” of his. It becomes even clearer that Tifa is not this special someone who is important to Cloud in the next few lines.

Scene 136 - Understanding –

(The scene fades in to show Cloud and Tifa alone on the bridge.)

(Tifa is still watching the clouds go by.)

Cloud "What are you going to do, Tifa?"

(She turns to him)

Tifa "Did you forget?"

Tifa "I'm... all alone. I don't have anywhere to go."

If Tifa is that special someone or something that Cloud is fighting for, then why does he forget that she has no place to go? Cloud is obviously not even expecting Tifa to stay around. He’s expecting her to go elsewhere. Wouldn’t Cloud be expecting her to stay with him if there was anything personal going on between them, or if he had interest in a relationship with her?

It should also be noted that the name of this scene is “Understanding”, which is a rather odd title for a supposedly romantic scene.

Tifa "Everyone's gone..."

Cloud "Yeah, we don't have anywhere or anyone to go home to."

(She looks down.)

Tifa "You're right..."

Cloud generalizes the first part with “we”, which includes him and Tifa. Cloud also says that they don’t have “anyone” to go home to, which is another indication that Cloud doesn’t consider Tifa to be special to him. If Tifa were that special someone Cloud is fighting for, or if he was actually interested in a relationship with her, wouldn’t he be feeling that his home is with her?

Tifa responds first with movement - she looks down. Clearly, this has an impact on her. Does she take it as a confession from Cloud that he doesn’t have anyone to go to, including her? The ellipsis at the end of “You’re right…” would also signify that Tifa hasn’t said all that she intended to say, that there is added thought behind her statement, and/or it’s not precisely what she meant.

(A pause.)

(She looks up and straightens her hair with one hand.)

Tifa "But... I'm sure someday... they'll come back, don't you think?"

(He crosses his arms)

Cloud "Hmm... I wonder...?"

Cloud "Everyone has an irreplaceable something they're holding on to..."

Cloud "But this time, our opponent..."

(A long pause.)

(The sound of the wind fades. Tifa nods)

Cloud’s line, “But this time, our opponent… ”, seems slightly out of place to me, especially if you are trying to interpret this as a romantic scene. Cloud has just said that everyone has an irreplaceable something they’re holding on to. If Tifa is that “irreplaceable something” for Cloud, then why does he switch topic and start talking about their opponent?

Tifa "Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back."

Tifa "As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared."

Why this sudden confession from Tifa? Why did Tifa suddenly blurt this out? Is she prompting a response from Cloud? Is she fed up with Cloud not confirming whether he has kept his yearning for her affection as an adult?

(He uncrosses his arms and looks at Tifa.)

Cloud "... Tifa..."

(She moves her arms behind her.)

Cloud’s response is just her name flanked by ellipsis. Why? Why doesn’t he say “me too”? Tifa is being rather bold about this whole issue and is apparently trying to prompt a response from him. If Cloud loves her, then why doesn’t he say it? Isn’t this his best chance to say it? There’s a pretty good chance that they won’t survive the battle with Sephiroth. Surely he realizes that… Tifa certainly does… yet he doesn’t take this opportunity to go along with the conversation and admit it. Would he rather just bring it up out of the blue?

Tifa "No matter how close we are... We were far apart... before this."

Tifa "But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."

(She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she bows her head.)

Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."

Tifa "But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."

The third and fourth lines that Tifa says are clearly prompted by her thinking that Cloud may not remember this for some reason. Why? Probably an important hint as to why she says this is her “sniff”. Is she crying because she believes Cloud has forgotten it for some reason? What is it?

(Cloud looks away and puts a hand to his face)

Cloud "Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."

Cloud "You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream."

(He lowers his hand. He nods)

Cloud "After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help."

Why the hand to his face?

Cloud puts to rest her doubts that he heard her with the “Yeah...at that time I heard you calling me”. Then he proceeds to say what the purpose of her calling was: “You were calling me back in from … the Lifestream.” Cloud follows this comment with a nod of affirmation. An affirmation of what? Tifa isn’t even looking at him at this point. Is he affirming to himself that this is what he truly remembers? That what he says after is the best thing to say next?

Cloud goes on to further explain why she heard his voice. Not leaving any doubts, eh Cloud? Interestingly, though, the reason does not involve anything about love or his closeness to her. It only has to do with keeping the childhood promise. Does he save this confession for later on?

(Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)

Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?"

(She gazes off to one side)

Tifa "Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"

Tifa changes the conversation without Cloud having said anything that resembles her “As long as I'm with you” line in either structure or meaning.

(Cloud looks up at the sky.)

Cloud "I dunno... But..."

Cloud "Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."

Cloud "Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"

Cloud "That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream."

Then Cloud’s quasi-philosophical response to her question - that they must believe in themselves, which is a theme often portrayed in anime and RPG’s. He follows this with the “Someday we’ll find the answer. Right, Tifa?” line. The answer to what? Tifa’s question? Perhaps… but that is apparently not what he’s referring to. He’s apparently referring to an answer within themselves, which is supported by his following line about learning that from the Lifestream. This is also clearly a more useful issue to find the answer to than whether or not the stars can see how hard they’re being fought for.

(She nods)

Tifa "Yeah... that's right..."

Nothing more than a tentative affirmation of what Cloud said….

Now for the most enigmatic part of this scene.

(Cloud stares off into the distance. He turns away from her slightly and lowers his head.)

Cloud "Hey, Tifa... I... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about."

(He shakes his head slowly.)

To what is Cloud referring to with “a lot of things”? And when did he want to talk to her about these things? “Wanted” is in the past tense. It signifies that, at some point in the past and NOT in the present, he wanted to talk to Tifa about a lot of things (not just one thing). But when is he referring to?

If one considers this part of the dialogue to be a continuation of the previous part about the Lifestream Event, then Cloud would be referring to any time related to that Event. This would include his childhood, the time period from his childhood to the Reunion, or while he was comatose from overexposure to the Lifestream. It may also be referring to what actually took place within the Lifestream Event, as well as what happened afterwards, a time when there would be sudden revelations and questions about it.

1. The childhood time period is very plausible - as a child with no friends, Cloud would obviously have wanted to tell the girl he had a crush on, if ever he got to be her friend, a lot of the things he thought in general etc. It makes sense for Cloud to tell her these things now: there may still be childhood experiences he wishes to share and perhaps how he felt about her at that time.

2. Referring to the period during which he was comatose and those childhood memories would not fit unless they were in relation to the events within the Lifestream Incident. This would make sense if relating his actions to what happened in that scene. The problem with this, however, would be that all these things could fall into the next point: things he wanted to say immediately after the scene.

3. Shortly after the Lifestream Incident may be the most logical one, since it’s very likely that he’s had further thoughts about what happened during that time.

Cloud "But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say..."

Cloud "I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."

Now many Cloud x Tifa supporters take this part to be hinting at a confession of love. It doesn’t appear to fit, though: he just had the opportunity to shamelessly confess it earlier when Tifa went all mushy about being alright at his side. Plus, Cloud would surely know what he wanted to say, if that were the case, although maybe not how to say it.

If one believes that Cloud is referring to thoughts he had about her in childhood, it can make sense - he wants to tell Tifa about his childhoood and things he wanted to tell her back then. This seems unlikely, though, because these things are age old and it would appear that he has cleared what misconceptions he had then. Besides, Cloud already discussed those past feelings with her during the Lifestream Event.

Even if Cloud is referring to his past feelings for her, we saw in the Lifestream Event that his most predominant feeling from childhood regarding Tifa was his guilt over letting her fall at the bridge. Is he perhaps wanting to make a proper apology for that?

The third possibility would appear the most supported - he wants to talk to Tifa about his thoughts after the Lifestream Event. After all, it fits in with the context of the conversation they’ve been having. It makes perfect sense that he would want to talk to Tifa more about their experience in the Lifestream, and natural that he’d have further questions about it. That also agrees with the plural “things” that we see here. The “Love Confession Theory” proposes that he’s talking about his love for her, but would that not be only one thing?

(Tifa shakes her head)

Tifa "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."

The infamous line. Clearly, Tifa has arrived at a conclusion based on what Cloud didn’t say.. But to what is she alluding? Some people jump to say that she’s saying that Cloud has confessed his love for her without those words being spoken. This doesn’t seem to follow, though, since Cloud’s dialogue here would have confirmed that this is not the case. Cloud hasn’t taken any of the opportunities to show reciprocation of his love for her and has offered alternate reasons for things that Tifa, apparently, thought were signs of his love for her.

This is the scene where Tifa confesses her love for Cloud. It is also, apparently, the scene where Tifa tries to get a similar confession from him… yet, she doesn’t. Is this absence of a confession what she’s referring to? Is she also referring to the lack of change in Cloud’s attitude towards her after the Lifestream event, a change showing that he has returned to his childhood feelings towards her?

What is not said is at times more telling than what is said… and what is not done more significant than that which is.

(Cloud looks at her. She continues to stare past the player, into space. She straightens her hair again with one hand.)

Cloud “........”

Tifa is evidently concealing her feelings now (she was crying before, but shows no such thing now), so we don’t really know what effect anything Cloud has said, or not said, has had on her.

And Cloud uses what is apparently one of his favorite responses. Cloud has nothing to say to Tifa’s statement… but why? If indeed Tifa was referring to him not expressing feelings of romantic love to her in any form and he realizes this, then it can be seen as a silent affirmation of what she says.

If Tifa is referring to him loving her and showing it, then we have a silence that is apparently out of place - why would Cloud remain silent and motionless if she’s referring to such a love? Is there anything that can be conclusively interpreted from his silence?

(She closes her eyes. The camera pans up, past her, to the sky, as the scene fades to black.)

Then Tifa closes her eyes in…what? Closes her eyes in relief? Closes her eyes in sorrow? In despair?

In relief: This is unlikely. Tifa is open here - she confesses love for Cloud as blatantly as one can without saying “I love you”. If it were relief that he did love her, then why stop there? Why not continue in this air of openness and approach him? Or open her eyes in relief?

In sorrow: this is very plausible. Cloud has not responded to Tifa in any way to show that he still has the childhood crush that he had for her when he was younger. He has not shown her that he loves her romantically now. She has tried coercing him with subtleties and blatancies in dialogue, yet he doesn’t respond. There is much reason for someone in love with another to be sad after realizing that her feelings aren’t reciprocated.

In despair: basically the same as in sorrow but slightly deeper. ‘Tis what is very possibly the final night that they will live, yet there has been no confession from Cloud of love for her. What is she to think?

Scene 137 - Last Morning -

(The scene fades in once more to the grassy hill. It is still mostly dark out, but the hint of a sun is glowing beyond the horizon. Cloud and Tifa are seated on a small rise in the ground. Tifa is resting her head on his shoulder; both are dozing. Cloud lifts his head slightly.)

Cloud "...It's almost dawn..."

Tifa "H, huh...?"

(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)

Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."

(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)

Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud."

Now, isn’t it unusual that Tifa stutters? If she had spent a night in Cloud’s loving embrace, as some people speculate, then why would she be stuttering? If there was mutual love reciprocated between them the night before, it’s far more likely that she would be lovingly gazing into his eyes rather than stuttering.

Tifa "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."

(She rests her head on his shoulder again.)

Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."

Possible interpretations:

1. They had sex.

2. They spent the night in a loving embrace. This is unlikely, however, since Cloud isn’t touching her now, and Tifa is stuttering.

3. Tifa is referring to their upcoming fight with Sephiroth. Since they may die, she isn’t in a hurry to get there.

4. She knows that she’ll never have an opportunity to be with Cloud like this again.

(He nods)

Cloud "Yeah... okay."

(He lowers his head again.)

Cloud “This is probably the last time we'll have together..."

Cloud agrees and supports her statement. Cloud/Tifa supporters see this as an indication that they love each other. Yet, Cloud’s behavior doesn’t indicate it. Wouldn’t Cloud say the same thing if they had gained a better understanding of one another during the evening, and had become closer friends in the process? And wouldn’t that interpretation fit with the title of the previous scene, which is “Understanding”?

I’ve included part of the scene from the following morning, the part that pertains to this scene and gives some insight as to what followed it. The next passage doesn’t reveal anything unusual.

(The scene fades in to show the Highwind hovering in the bright morning sky. The camera pans back down to the hill. Cloud is still sitting down; Tifa has risen and is gazing up at the Highwind, her hands behind her back. After a few moments, she drops her hands and shakes her head.)

Tifa “....”

(Cloud stands.)

Cloud "We'd better go."

(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)

Tifa "But, I still...!?"

(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)

Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."

Cloud "At least we don't have to go on alone."

(A pause. Tifa nods)

Tifa"Yes... That's right!"

(He nods)

Cloud "Okay! Let's go!"

(They walk together toward the Highwind.

It begins to lower to the ground as the scene fades.

It fades back in to show the walkway to the bridge.

Tifa is following Cloud.)

Scene 138 - We Shall Fight Together -

Tifa "The airship is too big for just the two of us."

Tifa "Yeah, it's a little lonely without everyone."

This strikes me as an awfully strange thing for Tifa to say IF she and Cloud had actually had a romantic encounter the night before. Why would someone who has just spent a romantic night and discovered love with another the preceding night be feeling lonely with him? If anything, a person in such a situation would want to be finding time alone with their new partner.

(Cloud turns around to face her.)

Cloud "Don't worry. It'll be okay."

(He does his squat-thrusts.)

Cloud "I'll make a big enough ruckus for everyone."

(He stops and straightens his hair.)

Cloud “Besides, I'm the pilot."

Cloud "No more flying around casually like before."

Cloud "We won't have time to feel lonely."

Now Cloud is talking about both of them feeling lonely without the others around. Again, isn’t this an awfully strange thing for two people to be saying IF they had actually discovered their love for one another the night before?

(She nods. A long pause. Suddenly, the entire Highwind shakes as the engines fire up.)

Tifa "Huh!?"

(She looks around.)

Cloud "It's moving..."

(They dash to the bridge. They find Cait Sith dozing in one corner. They run past him and find Barret and Cid working with the pilot's controls.)

Cloud "Barret! Cid!"

(Barret turns and looks at Cloud, then at Tifa, then back to Cloud)

Barret "O, oh... is that okay with you?"

(He looks at Cloud...then at Tifa...then back at Cloud, then asks Cloud if "that" is okay with him. This "that" is most certainly the moving Highwind (nothing else it can be).

(Red XIII runs up to them from offscreen.)

Cloud "Red XIII!"

(Cloud and Tifa look back to Barret.)

Tifa "Why didn't you tell me!?"

Tell her what? That they decided to return and continue their quest, it would appear.

(Red XIII looks at Cid, who still is operating the controls.)

Red XIII "But, you know, Cid."

(He looks at Cloud. Cid leaves the controls and stares at Red XIII.)

Cid "Hey, Red XIII."

Cid "If you butt in now, you never know what they'll say later..."

Tifa "...Were you watching?"

(They watch her as she runs away, clutches her head and falls to the floor in embarrassment. Vincent enters the bridge. All except Tifa turn to see him enter.)

Now this part is odd. Watching what? Butt into what? Why be so enigmatic?

This is apparently the part that has some people thinking that Cloud and Tifa had sex...but why, exactly? The vagueness of their dialogue is one fairly good reason to think that that's the reason...but why is the dialogue vague? Society tends to make multiple synonyms for things or terms that it feels uncomfortable or embarrassed about. We also refer to embarrassing things solely with pronouns to remove their embarrassment level. It would appear that this is what is happening here - Cid is trying to reduce the embarrassment of this scene by only hinting to it...but what is he hinting to?

Let's consider why she may be embarrassed:

1. Sex - The most popularly believed reason. I don't think that this is it because it just doesn't seem to fit. Tifa is visibly quite embarrassed, while Cloud does nothing. Also, judging from the dialogue before the night ended this doesn't appear a likely ending to the scenario.

2. Tears - Tifa, realizing that Cloud doesn't love her as she does him, breaks down in tears. Cloud comforts her.

These are the most likely reasons for her embarrassment. Why would she be embarrassed if there was mutual love displayed between them the night before? If that were the case, then Cloud would be supportive… but he is not. If that were the case, there would be no reason for embarrassment.

Absolutely nothing conclusive has been shown in these scenes. Any conclusions made by the player are made totally by inference. Cloud has made no commitment to Tifa. His response of “………” to Tifa’s statement of “Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking” is open to the interpretation of the player. There are several reasons why Tifa could be embarrassed the next morning, including embarrassment over being upset when Cloud turns her down.

It must also be remembered that other versions of this scene exist, since the outcome of this scene is governed by Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. Regardless of how it is played, these scenes show absolutely no conclusive evidence of Cloud’s affection for Tifa.

And I have it easier time getting on a date with Tifa than with Aeris, especially when you can get Tifa 20+ affection points before you've even met with Aeris. Besides, what YOU choose (to get Aeris) has nothing to do with me. :p

Wheter or not you have an easier time getting points with Tifa has nothing to do with me as well.
Does this change the fact that Aerith is the default date?
NO.

Oh, and when thinking about who Cloud gets, Aeris dies at the end of Disc 1, which puts her in a complete disadvantage, actually, out of the equation.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

Sefie1999AD

10-30-2005, 06:03 PM

Ok.

Well, are you saying his lines :

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

I said when Cloud was DROPPING AERIS TO THE LAKE. Cloud wasn't uttering the lines you just quoted during the FMV when Aeris dropped there. Oh, and one more thing. In RPGs, the player can be the main character and create extra stuff about how they feel. So if some people, who are playing the game, find it hilarious and laugh when Aeris dies, that's how they can decide the characters to feel. The game can show Cloud was sad. But the gamer can decide he was pretending to be sad.

Please explain what do you mean by "Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aerith died." First off, how on earth do you know how ZACK feels? Are you Zack?

Yes, I am. And since Zack part of Cloud is the only thing that was attracted to Aeris, only the Zack part would grieve.

Once again, please show me evidence when stating points. I won't accept any of your 'I think' as evidence unless there is solid proof backing it up.

Evidence? Unlike you, I'm posting my opinions, not trying to force facts down someone's throat. :p So please stop pouring your so called facts down my throat as I'm not taking them.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

And he was devastated by what happened to Tifa. Still you said he wasn't sad at all about what happened to Tifa.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

Holy crap, that sure was long. Hope it doesn't intimidate you.

Yeah, it sure was. That's why I didn't even bother reading it. After talking with SoS, I got bored of super-long FF essays and decide to just trust myself and what I think happens in the game because
1) Square Enix never said that I'm not allowed to view the games that way.
2) In all kind of analysis, the reader can make his/her own interpretations and say that's what s/he thinks.
3) Those essays are just boring me, forcing me to scroll down these forums, waste a lot of my time, and eventually, they give me nothing new or useful.

I've stated my point. Your interpretation for that sentence is not valid.

See above, point 2).

I didn't make that site. It is a detailed look at the number of interactions between Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aeris throughout the game based on the game's script. You don't want to look at evidence I give you, fine.

There's ways to alter the script, by throwing Aeris out of your party and putting Tifa in. Or ditching them both and having Yuffie and Barret shine. Doesn't count as evidence, either.

And of course I'm biased Cloud and Aeris, else what on earth am I doing in here in the first place. You are pretty biased Cloud and Tifa yourself, you don't see me insulting you for favouring that pairing.

Right, only you're saying my opinions are invalid and that your opinions are facts and evidence.

So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

Wheter or not you have an easier time getting points with Tifa has nothing to do with me as well.
Does this change the fact that Aerith is the default date?
NO.

Yep, but it doesn't mean you'd ever have to date Aeris. You don't really even have to have her in your party at all during the game, except for:
1) When she and Cloud escape the church in Midgar until Sector VII invasion.
2) Temple of Ancients.

And nobody's stopping me from using GameShark to force-change her out of my party.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

People here have been mostly talking about romantic love. And if Cloud has any romantic feelings for a corpse, then... eww, if that's what you're saying, I rest my case.

TurkSlayer

10-30-2005, 06:04 PM

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

Of course he's sad. His friend just died, anyone would be sad about that. What he's saying is that he wasn't absolutely devastated by it.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

Of course he was. He was also devastated by the loss of his mother and Tifa, both of which he put before his home. This means he puts Tifa near the same level as is his mother.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

All right, I read this, and your correct, he is not Zack. At least, not entirely.

Aeris ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture...I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
Aeris "But you're different."
Aeris "Things are different..."
Aeris "Cloud...I'm searching for you..."
Cloud "............?"
Aeris "I want to meet you."
Cloud "But I'm right here."
Aeris (I know, I know... what I mean is...) "I want to meet..... you."

By the first line, it suggests that Aeris was at first attracted to him because of the ways he was like Zack. "I think I must have seen him again, in you..." This is basically say that this is what she first saw in him, and why she liked him. The last few lines, speaking of meeting the real Cloud, seem to suggest that didn't ever really meet him. While Zack's personality seems quite different from Cloud's (Which we know from the few scenes Zack was in), Aeris still seems to think that they were enough alike that she really never met Cloud.

Aeris "What rank were you?"
Cloud "Rank?"
Aeris "You know, in SOLDIER."
Cloud "Oh, I was...First Class."
Aeris "Just the same as him."
Cloud "The same as who?"
Aeris "My first boyfriend."
Cloud "You were... serious?"
Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."
Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"
Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Like I said before this is the first time Zack is brought into the game and this little conversation tells a lot about her present feelings at the time. When Aeris first asks what rank Cloud is, it shows how she has already noticed some similarity between the two considering the question came a bit out of nowhere and also when looking at her response to his answer.

Aeris "Just the same as him."

It shows how she is making a comparison between the two and remembering certain things about Zack through Cloud. Cloud then goes on to ask who she is speaking of.

Aeris "My first boyfriend."

This is the first time we find out that Aeris and Zack were a pair (couple) at some time before the game actually begins. We however are not given much information on it such as how long it lasted and since she seems to speak so openly about it, her personality and mood during this period kind of shows that the whole discussion is more or less everyday conversation. Aeris is a very emotional character, so if this relationship was so serious why wouldn’t she show more emotion instead of just sitting on the slide and talking like it was just one of many memories. Wait? Was it serious?

(Continued)

Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."

Cloud asks openly if her and Zack’s relationship “really” meant something to her and she flat out says no. Kind of a personal question, but her answer doesn’t make it seem so. She even shakes her head quickly as if to emphasis this. Actions and words both speak loud in this case. Cloud then continues seeing she isn’t deeply hurt in discussing the topic.

Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"

This part I find most interesting. If Aeris was so obsessed with Zack, wouldn’t she go crazy at hearing this? Cloud might have known him, he says. Now at this point in the game we as the gamer don’t know what is to come, so all we really know, along with Aeris, is that Cloud could very well know this mysterious SOLDIER. So therefore if Cloud may know him than he also might be able to tell what happened to him, what they had done together in SOLDIER (if they happened to be old buddies), and above all else to Aeris WHERE ZACK MIGHT BE!!! Yes we later find out Zack died, but Aeris does not know this and I don’t think it is even found out on disk one at that. So shouldn’t Aeris be jumping for joy with this new hope of finding her love again? But, what’s this? What does she say?

Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Funny, how Aeris could have told Cloud Zack’s name and perhaps with his help found Zack so she could be with him. Remember again that Aeris doesn’t know that Zack is dead and that Cloud (at this point in the game, work with me&#33 doesn’t know him. Doesn’t she even want to try? Doesn’t seem like it, does it? So does this mean that Zack didn’t mean as much to Aeris in a romantic way as we thought he did?

Lets think back for a minute, when Cloud and the group speak to Aeris's mother about Aeris. Her mother says that she was able to feel her husband's death. So, why wouldn't she be able to feel Zack's death? She probably be able to sense it, considering she could sense someone she never even knew. I doubt anyone would want to be reminded too much of someone they had lost. I haven't seen AC yet, but from what I've heard, Cloud begins to blame himself over again after receiving a gift from Aeris's mother. Obviously, he didn't want to be reminded. So why would Aeris?

(They speak about Zack and how he was Aeris’s boyfriend and all)
Cloud "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him."
Aeris "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."

That’s all in the past now. Doesn’t this confirm what I’ve said before? Right there in that statement Aeris states she has moved on from whatever her and Zack had had. The dialogue continues.

Cloud "Missing?"
Aeris "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back. He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else...”
Aeris "Hey? What's wrong?"

Now after saying this if Aeris was indeed very depressed over the whole Zack thing wouldn’t she have been quiet afterward or shown some sort of emotion? But instead she asks Cloud what’s wrong, indicating how nothing should be upsetting after having this conversation. Kind of funny how she bounces back so quickly after being very depressed over Zack. Anyway, the conversation continues.

Choice Poor guy
(jealous... envious...) [========={If you pick this one all Aeris does is tease Cloud for being jealous of Zack. Doesn’t this show how she distinguishes between the two and doesn’t see them as being the same? Just a thought, but that is not the focus so we will choose the option in Cloud x Tifa favor just for kicks}

(Continued)

Aeris "I don't really mind that I haven't heard from him. But I feel for his parents."

But if she was in love with him, wouldn’t she mind? This confirms what I have said before. Good ol` Aeris always feeling for others. She feels bad that his parents have been suffering over their son being missing, she doesn’t feel bad that she is not able to be with him because he is missing. Yes Aeris is worried about his well being, but this shows more of a friendship type relationship (if even that) that she most likely now holds toward Zack.

The big question concerning all that’s been said is probably why doesn’t Aeris find or think that it matters, as she has said a couple of times now. The answer is simple. She doesn’t find it important to dwell in the past. I remember once reading an interview with Hironobou Sakaguchi in which he said Aeris is basically the symbolism of life and living for the future. This is pretty apparent, what does Aeris always talk about? The future. She says one day she will get out of Midgar, listen to the planet and go find her promised land. Aeris tells about how much she would like to take a ride on the highwind sometime. In the temple of the ancients, she says that later the group will look back at all these hard times and laugh. Lastly, she says she would come back when it was all over. In the game, whose main theme is LIFE, the personification of it is displayed through Aeris. It’s the way the developers personally start to involve the player with the theme. Many complain about Aeris’s personality being too happy and lively but her personality was designed this way because of the life and hope for the future she displays. Zack represents the past and death. Aeris character which always looks toward the future would be breaking her symbolism by dwelling in the past and clinging to Zack.

If what I suggested before was correct and she had felt him die, of course she wouldn't mind him not contacting her. After all, that fairly difficult after death. The stuff about him being a "ladie's man" was simply an excuse not to talk about her power. (Which I don't believe she knew that Cloud knew about it) She had moved on, yes, as most people do. People in reality get married to people they really love, and after they die, they move on in time. Of course, another reason for her to move on was that she had found someone else who was like him.

So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

I don't have time to dscuss this one, but I probably will a little later.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

Yuna was never entirely sure what happened to Tidus (He never explained the dream thing to them), so for all she knew, he was still alive. That was kind of the point of her journey in X-2 in the first place because she thought he was still alive. As for Shuyin and Lenne, well, I never got more than half way through the game, so I don't know much about them.

Pivi

10-30-2005, 09:42 PM

Woah, how can You all write this much...? :eek:

And I don't really get Your point. Are we arguing if Cloud loved Aerith and not Tifa in FF7...? What is it have to do with Advent Children...?

What I see from the compilation, is Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa, which is a very emotional feeling for him. If Aerith would not come in the picture, then Cloud and Tifa would definetly become a couple.
But Aerith came, and Cloud fell in love with her. They would have been a very nice couple, but Aerith died. After that, Cloud was depressed, thus, he lost his lover, and he did not end up with Tifa in the game.

Meanwhile, Aerith's "spirit" is wandering in the lifestream, she interacts with everyone, and she meets up with Zack (Maiden over the Planet). They interacts (possible Zeris hints there, but nothing solid proof), and after some time, they actually watch the whole lifestream scene, where Tifa helps Cloud get himself together.
After that scene, Zack says:
"Cloud got the girl now"
And Aerith says at the end that although she's a little bit jealous, but she leaves Cloud and the world at Tifa's care.
So from this, it is very much clear, that Aerith lets go of Cloud.

After the game, Cloud started to let go of Aerith's memory (talking about Case of Tifa now), and started to live his life with Tifa, Barret and the children, and with time, he even started to show some affection for Tifa (I consider this as he has romantical feelings for her, but he can't let them out, until Aerith's memory still inside him as a guilt). The problem is that he couldn't let go of his guilt completely, so Cloud and Tifa did not get much closer in their relationship. Yes, I see romantical love from both sides, but Aerith's memory is still in the way.

After that, came the movie, where it was shown, how Cloud lets go of his guilt, and at the end, he lets go of Aerith. Of course, he will remember her forever, and she'll have a place in Cloud's heart as a lost loved one, but Cloud now can move forward, and this suggests a very big posssibility for Cloud & Tifa, because Cloud can let his feelings out for her.

This ends Cloud's story.
What happens in the future, is based on our imagination, and if Cloud and Tifa will properly get together, is also the sound of the future, but I see a big possibility for them.

Well, that's it for now, I hope my explanation isn't too chaotic... The truth is that I'm awfully sleepy now, and I used to mess up my english grammar, when I'm tired... :)

TurkSlayer

10-31-2005, 02:49 AM

Yep, but it doesn't mean you'd ever have to date Aeris. You don't really even have to have her in your party at all during the game, except for:
1) When she and Cloud escape the church in Midgar until Sector VII invasion.
2) Temple of Ancients.

Ah, thank you, I forgot to point this out. Yes, unless you have Aeris in your party all the time, Cloud and Aeris have almost NO interaction besides the two parts mentioned, unlike Cloud and Tifa, who have a few in the first disk, and Many later on.

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.

Snake Eyes

10-31-2005, 04:36 AM

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.

Which is quite interesting since this topic seems to revolve around Cloud and Tifa and not Cloud and Aerith. The title did say, " The relationship between Cloud and Tifa".

silentchild

10-31-2005, 05:52 AM

Pivi - do you believe the ending to be pro-Cloti or pro-Cleris?

Pivi

10-31-2005, 06:54 AM

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.
I see. Well, I think he loved her...

Pivi - do you believe the ending to be pro-Cloti or pro-Cleris?
The game, or the movie...?
Well, the game was Cleris for me (as I remember), and the movie was closure of Cleris with a big possibility of Cloti in the future.

silentchild

10-31-2005, 07:22 AM

The game, or the movie...?
Well, the game was Cleris for me (as I remember), and the movie was closure of Cleris with a big possibility of Cloti in the future.

I was referring to the movie but thanks for replying. :)

You say there's a big possibility for Cloti? Isn't that just what it is, a possibility? What evidence shows that Cloti *will* eventually happen? As far as we saw in CoT, a relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out. What makes you think it will work now? Where did we see Cloud reciprocate Tifa's feelings towards him?

Since you claim that
So all in all, I think Cloud wants to get over Aerith, but he can't do this without her forgiveness. He will always have a part in his heart for Aerith, but not all of his heart as a "one and only" love.

Why does this qualify as Cloti? Doesn't keeping Aerith in his heart qualify as 'Cleris'? So you are implying that his heart remains with Aerith but his physical moves on with Tifa? Spiritual love goes deeper than physical love, am I right?

Anything that will happen between Cloud and Tifa after AC is mainly up to one's own imagination. You can write fanfics and draw fanarts about it all you like, but it is not canon. Ambiguity is one of the main reasons which made FF7 so popular.

Pivi

10-31-2005, 08:50 AM

You say there's a big possibility for Cloti? Isn't that just what it is, a possibility? What evidence shows that Cloti *will* eventually happen?
Yes, of course nothing states that it will happen. That's why I said it's a big possibility, and it's based on our imagination.
What is clear at the end of AC, is that Cloud is single, and he do not struggle anymore. Everything else is based on small hints, but nothing solid proof.

As far as we saw in CoT, a relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out. What makes you think it will work now? Where did we see Cloud reciprocate Tifa's feelings towards him?
Well, the relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out well in CoT, because Cloud did not let go of Aerith (although Aerith did let go of Cloud).
But that is what the movie is about. How Cloud moves forward, how he let go of Aerith and his guilt.
And Cloud actually has some romantical feelings toward Tifa, but he has to acknoledge these feelings, and he has to let them out for her. And because the guilt for Aerith is not in the way anyomre, that's why I see a big possibility for them now.

Why does this qualify as Cloti? Doesn't keeping Aerith in his heart qualify as 'Cleris'?
Well, I think You mix up romantical feelings with not romantical feelings. Actually, in my interpretation, Cloud let go his romantical feelings for Aerith at the end of the movie (together with his guilt). Keeping her in his heart does not mean that he's eternally in love with her.
It's like he lost his loved one, and he'll remember her forever, but he can move forward, and he can fall in love romantically with another girl. Which he actually started with Tifa. Started.

So what he feels for Aerith, is much more a parental kind of love, not a romantical one.

Anything that will happen between Cloud and Tifa after AC is mainly up to one's own imagination. You can write fanfics and draw fanarts about it all you like, but it is not canon. Ambiguity is one of the main reasons which made FF7 so popular.
Yes, I agree with this one. I never stated anythink like Cloud and Tifa are canon. In the first hand, there's no canon couple in FF7. Nor Cloud x Aerith, nor Cloud x Tifa.

TurkSlayer

10-31-2005, 01:14 PM

Which is quite interesting since this topic seems to revolve around Cloud and Tifa and not Cloud and Aerith. The title did say, " The relationship between Cloud and Tifa".

That's true, but we are currently arguing about both. Sephiroth1999AD and myself don't believe he ever rally loved Aeris, while silentchild argues that he did, and never loved Tifa.

silentchild

10-31-2005, 01:35 PM

But that is what the movie is about. How Cloud moves forward, how he let go of Aerith and his guilt.

Letting go of his guilt does not mean he stops loving Aerith, and it doesn't mean falling in love with another woman. Letting go of his guilt just means that Cloud won't beat himself up anymore over something that was never his fault to begin with.

And because the guilt for Aerith is not in the way anyomre, that's why I see a big possibility for them now.

The possibility does exist, I agree with you on that one. However, the possibility that Cloud will continue loving Aerith with a full heart rather that one laden by misplaced guilt also exists. Where have we seen Cloud make any clear move towards Tifa indicating that he was ready to try starting a life with her, and move on from Aerith?

This is why the Cleris possibility still holds ground.

Keeping her in his heart does not mean that he's eternally in love with her.
It's like he lost his loved one, and he'll remember her forever, but he can move forward, and he can fall in love romantically with another girl. Which he actually started with Tifa. Started.

I assume you are referrring to the beginning of CoT? How do you know that things will go back as they were? You say this assuming that guilt over Aerith was the sole reason for Cloud and Tifa's 'stunted' romance in CoT, and now that it's gone, you assume things will go back to the way they supposedly were.

But how do you know it's not because he realised that he still loved Aerith? What if he thought he could love Tifa, but eventually realised that things weren't working out? People don't always know what they want in love and life, and what if Cloud realised he'd made a mistake? And what if the delivery to the Forgotten City was the reality check that he still loved Aerith?

When I read CoT, it seemed to me that the incompatibility factor was what drove Cloud and Tifa apart. They were not even in a relationship then, but already they couldn't tolerate each other.
Tifa was obsessed with her family life, but that wasn't the way Cloud was comfortable with. He felt freeer doing his own things, roaming the world. He apologizes to Tifa for every little thing, like a little kid being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He hides things from her, not telling her anything. When Tifa makes advances on him, he gives her dubious looks. He stays away from home for long periods of time. Tifa feels aggravated and frustrated with him. Even Marlene notices they don't get along. Tifa even feels jealous of Denzel.
In the end, Cloud moves out to the church, which he refers to as his place.
Cloud not being able to get along with Tifa has nothing to do with his guilt. It is solely due to the incompatibility of Cloud and Tifa.

So what he feels for Aerith, is much more a parental kind of love, not a romantical one.

I assume that this is because of the "mother" quote in AC? Then can I not say that, after CoT, what Tifa feels for Cloud is also a kind of parental love and not a romantic one? Isn't that a much more obvious indication that her feelings have evolved from one of romance to one of sibling/motherliness? Especially since it is narrated from Tifa's own POV. After all, that's the same assumption that people make because of one murmur from Cloud after being shot through the chest.

Why must only Cloud's feelings evolve into parental love and not Tifa's?

I never stated anythink like Cloud and Tifa are canon. In the first hand, there's no canon couple in FF7. Nor Cloud x Aerith, nor Cloud x Tifa.

Good, looks like we agree on that one. :)

Yes, unless you have Aeris in your party all the time, Cloud and Aeris have almost NO interaction besides the two parts mentioned, unlike Cloud and Tifa, who have a few in the first disk, and Many later on.

Actually, I did refer to an in-depth analysis on Cloud interactions with Tifa compared to Cloud's interactions with Aerith in FF7 a few posts up, completely based on the game script, taking in any considerable situation, but your kind friend refused to click on the link for fear it would eat him. You can look it up if you like. Just to note, it was not made by me, and I found it to be very unbiased.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Pivi

10-31-2005, 09:27 PM

This is why the Cleris possibility still holds ground.
Yes, of course, I do not have anything against it.
SE made the movie for all of their fans, and they made it as anyone can interpret anything out of it, so there's nothing which was cearly stated there.

When I read CoT, it seemed to me that the incompatibility factor was what drove Cloud and Tifa apart. They were not even in a relationship then, but already they couldn't tolerate each other.
Tifa was obsessed with her family life, but that wasn't the way Cloud was comfortable with. He felt freeer doing his own things, roaming the world. He apologizes to Tifa for every little thing, like a little kid being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He hides things from her, not telling her anything. When Tifa makes advances on him, he gives her dubious looks. He stays away from home for long periods of time. Tifa feels aggravated and frustrated with him. Even Marlene notices they don't get along. Tifa even feels jealous of Denzel.
In the end, Cloud moves out to the church, which he refers to as his place.
Cloud not being able to get along with Tifa has nothing to do with his guilt. It is solely due to the incompatibility of Cloud and Tifa.
Well, I have to disagree with You here. :)
At the first part of CoT, Cloud and Tifa were very much compatible with each other. Cloud even showed some affection towards her, when he blushed around, he said that it'll be alright, because Tifa is there for him.
Their "incompatibility" thing only came after that delivery to the forgotten city. That was, when Cloud started to lose himself again. He felt in depression, and he distanced himself from Tifa.
I do not see any incompatibility their, only depression, whick makes people distant to each other (like in real life).
And what was the cause of his depression? I do not have anything against the theory that he relised that he can't let go of Aerith romantically, but that has to do nothing with that I saw that he finally let go of her at the end of the movie. :)

I assume that this is because of the "mother" quote in AC?
No. :)
Most of the Clotis arguing with this, but I don't think that has to do anything with parental love. I just referred to Cloud's love like parental, but I can write familial love also, it does not have to do anything with mother/son relationship, I just wanted to state the difference between romantical love, and the love that Cloud feels for Aerith in the end (in my interpretation).

Good, looks like we agree on that one. :)
Actually, I'm very open-minded, and I share similar thoughts with Clerises, and with Clotis also. I have my own interpretation of the compilation, which is not the same as biased Clerises' or biased Clotis', so I can easily agree with anyone. :)

http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm
Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical... :)

Sefie1999AD

10-31-2005, 10:59 PM

Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical... :)

Yeah, not just that, but the huge amount of Cloud-Aeris pics there doesn't imply at all that the one who wrote that is neutral and not biased towards Cloud x Aeris. In addition, when I read about Tifa-Cloud moments, the author's interpretation seems to be every time against them: that they don't get along, they don't belong to each other etc. Also, listing the amount of scenes Cloud has with Aeris to show who Cloud loves certainly solves the case. Quantity over quality! :rolleyes2 Cloud has loads of scenes with Sephiroth, he's admired him ever since his childhood, he pursues him all the way through the entire world and he always goes crazy over him when he's around - oh no, Cloud has the hots for Sephiroth! ;)

TurkSlayer: Not sure if my point is that Cloud never loved Aeris. Just that maybe Cloud wasn't as much for Aeris as many think he was. I think there was some attraction between them, but Aeris died before nothing came of it...

Hey, isn't it clear! Cloud has the hots for Sephiroth, and Sephiroth feels the same way, and so they killed Aeris to get rid of any possible third wheels. :D

Psychotic

10-31-2005, 11:09 PM

Hey, isn't it clear! Cloud has the hots for Sephiroth, and Sephiroth feels the same way, and so they killed Aeris to get rid of any possible third wheels. :DAnd so, with Sephiroth1999AD's words, 10,000 Cloud x Sephiroth yaoi fanfic writers were inspired, and lo, there was a plague upon mankind, and indeed Sephiroth 1999AD felt much regret with bringing about this catastrophe.

Tomoe

11-01-2005, 04:47 AM

Sorry to butt into this interesting discussion of the development of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa (or the lack of it). :whimper:

IMHO

Well, I have to disagree with You here.
At the first part of CoT, Cloud and Tifa were very much compatible with each other. Cloud even showed some affection towards her, when he blushed around, he said that it'll be alright, because Tifa is there for him.
How does it show compatibility when they hadn't truly tried living together?
Those are merely words, words of comfort, words indicating the willingness to try to live a new life together (with Barret and marlene, mind you).
Incompatibility factors in when they started living together.
Isn't the story development of CoT highlighting the incompatibility instead?
In short, I agree with silentchild. :)

Their "incompatibility" thing only came after that delivery to the forgotten city. That was, when Cloud started to lose himself again. He felt in depression, and he distanced himself from Tifa.
I do not see any incompatibility their, only depression, whick makes people distant to each other (like in real life).
And what was the cause of his depression? I do not have anything against the theory that he relised that he can't let go of Aerith romantically, but that has to do nothing with that I saw that he finally let go of her at the end of the movie.
Why does Cloud hide things from Tifa?
Like his fenrir, delivery jobs, visiting the church?
Incompatibility began when Cloud loved doing the above stuff but he hid them from Tifa, suggesting Cloud sensed that Tifa wouldn't like what he love.

What I don't understand is, what do you mean by letting go of Aerith romantically? If you truly believe that Cloud love Aerith from the bottom of his heart in the game and pre-AC, how does receiving forgiveness from Aerith and then saying "I know I'm not alone" suggest that he is letting go of her romantically? Isn't it more rational to think that Cloud is enlightened with the knowledge that Aerith was actually always by his side, something which he didn't realised until then, and it was this enlightenment that made him smile and said "I'm not alone". To me, it is more like a reinforcement of how much Cloud cherished the thought of Aerith being there by his side, and not that he was letting go of her romantically.

http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical...
Oh I think it's cute, and startling accurate. It analyses indepth from both Cleris and Cloti pov, which is a good thing. Unless someone can do a good rebuttal to it, I wouldn't brush it aside as something merely comical myself. The neutral in me made me appreciate the effort put in by the author. The rabid in me giggled :love: .

And so, with Sephiroth1999AD's words, 10,000 Cloud x Sephiroth yaoi fanfic writers were inspired, and lo, there was a plague upon mankind, and indeed Sephiroth 1999AD felt much regret with bringing about this catastrophe.
:grinpink:

silentchild

11-01-2005, 06:14 AM

If you claim Cloud let go of Aerith romantically, please explain the significance of the flowerfield to Cloud that prolongs even after AC.

There are photos of gold, scattered all over his desk, tacked on the walls, simply everywhere. There are flowers in the vase. There are flowers on the desk. Cloud was seen riding out to the flower field during Calling. Reminiscence shows he is somewhere in the flowerfields during Tifa's call. Why does the flower field have so much significance to Cloud if he has let go of her? Why did the producers choose to show him riding out to the flowerfields instead of riding home to Seventh Heaven as indication he has let go of her?

"I...I am not alone." How does that mean he lets go of her romantically?

Actually, I'm very open-minded, and I share similar thoughts with Clerises, and with Clotis also. I have my own interpretation of the compilation, which is not the same as biased Clerises' or biased Clotis', so I can easily agree with anyone.

That's a very rare kind of fan these days. :) You're a good debater, much respect points to you. I apologize if I'm a bit uptight, it's the kind of narrow minded fans that I cannot stand (even though I am one stubborn biased person myself).

Pivi

11-01-2005, 09:02 AM

Why does Cloud hide things from Tifa?
Like his fenrir, delivery jobs, visiting the church?
Incompatibility began when Cloud loved doing the above stuff but he hid them from Tifa, suggesting Cloud sensed that Tifa wouldn't like what he love.
Well, I do not see these things as incompatibility. I have things, that I do not tell my girlfriend, because everyone has their private factor. And I do not think, that we're incompatible with my girlfriend. :)

And when Cloud "hided" something from Tifa, it was nothing that made them separate. It started when Cloud fell in depression.

What I don't understand is, what do you mean by letting go of Aerith romantically?
If you truly believe that Cloud love Aerith from the bottom of his heart in the game and pre-AC, how does receiving forgiveness from Aerith and then saying "I know I'm not alone" suggest that he is letting go of her romantically?[/QUOTE]
Actually, I do not think it's only forgiveness. :)
Cloud knows at the end, that he belongs to the "upper world" (it was stated that he do not belong to the "dead world"), and with the "I'm not alone" statement, he indicates, that his friends are there for him, thus he's not alone.
Don't forget, that he felt alone the whole movie, although his friends were there.
If he would feel that Aerith will be there for him forever, and he would love her romantically, then it would be much logical for me, that he goes back living in the church, and not with Tifa and the children, but at the end, he goes back to 7th Heaven.

And don't forget how Cloud answers Tifa's loving look with a smile, before he sees Aerith. That's really much indicates for me, that he don't have to separate himself from her anymore (and note that I do not write anything like eternal love here :)).

Isn't it more rational to think that Cloud is enlightened with the knowledge that Aerith was actually always by his side, something which he didn't realised until then, and it was this enlightenment that made him smile and said "I'm not alone". To me, it is more like a reinforcement of how much Cloud cherished the thought of Aerith being there by his side, and not that he was letting go of her romantically.
Well, not for me. :)

Oh I think it's cute, and startling accurate. It analyses indepth from both Cleris and Cloti pov, which is a good thing. Unless someone can do a good rebuttal to it, I wouldn't brush it aside as something merely comical myself. The neutral in me made me appreciate the effort put in by the author. The rabid in me giggled :love:
Well, I do not see that this page is truly neutral, but anyway, what does it have to do with Advent Children...?

If you claim Cloud let go of Aerith romantically, please explain the significance of the flowerfield to Cloud that prolongs even after AC.

There are photos of gold, scattered all over his desk, tacked on the walls, simply everywhere. There are flowers in the vase. There are flowers on the desk. Cloud was seen riding out to the flower field during Calling. Reminiscence shows he is somewhere in the flowerfields during Tifa's call. Why does the flower field have so much significance to Cloud if he has let go of her? Why did the producers choose to show him riding out to the flowerfields instead of riding home to Seventh Heaven as indication he has let go of her?
Well, in the first hand, I think Cloud do not want to forget Aerith. Letting go of her romantically does not mean that he wants to forget her. This is why he keeps a flower in front of the group picture of his desk.
But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.

And the flower fields were shown that Aerith is still watching over them as a motherly figure. It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud (don't forget that she gave her blessings to Tifa and Cloud in Maiden over the Planet).

TurkSlayer

11-01-2005, 05:57 PM

TurkSlayer: Not sure if my point is that Cloud never loved Aeris. Just that maybe Cloud wasn't as much for Aeris as many think he was. I think there was some attraction between them, but Aeris died before nothing came of it...

Well, my point is that while he cared for her as much as anyone would care for a good friend, he never loved her.

Actually, I did refer to an in-depth analysis on Cloud interactions with Tifa compared to Cloud's interactions with Aerith in FF7 a few posts up, completely based on the game script, taking in any considerable situation, but your kind friend refused to click on the link for fear it would eat him. You can look it up if you like. Just to note, it was not made by me, and I found it to be very unbiased.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Oh yes, soooooo unbiased!:rolleyes2 Please, whover this is is clearly a Cleris supporter.

Aquarius

11-01-2005, 06:23 PM

Aeris loves Zack. They both revisit Cloud to make sure he's ok, but they do it togeather. It really seemed like they were a couple just by the way they handled it in the movie.

Have you read MoTP? It gives a little bit more insight to how Aeris feels towards Zack.

So if some people, who are playing the game, find it hilarious and laugh when Aeris dies, that's how they can decide the characters to feel. The game can show Cloud was sad. But the gamer can decide he was pretending to be sad.

Well, except that MoTP shows how Cloud felt when Aeris died.

Taken from MoTP translation:

It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth.

She was surprised at the great sorrow he had for her. She was a little happy that he thought so much of her but she also felt the pain that was many times greater. There was nothing she could do about Cloud's suffering and the pain ached in her heart.

Yes, I am. And since Zack part of Cloud is the only thing that was attracted to Aeris, only the Zack part would grieve.

Then why would Cloud's part of Cloud still want forgiveness from Aeris in AC? I'm sorry, I've never believed that "the Zack in Cloud the only part of Cloud that loved Aeris" argument.

Yeah, it sure was. That's why I didn't even bother reading it.

Oh well, your loss.

People here have been mostly talking about romantic love. And if Cloud has any romantic feelings for a corpse, then... eww, if that's what you're saying, I rest my case.

*sigh* Yeah, Cloud wants to physically get with Aeris's corpse. Seriously, do you think we support that?

Lets think back for a minute, when Cloud and the group speak to Aeris's mother about Aeris. Her mother says that she was able to feel her husband's death. So, why wouldn't she be able to feel Zack's death? She probably be able to sense it, considering she could sense someone she never even knew.

Strangely enough, Aeris never knew that Zack died until they met in the Lifestream. Maybe she can't sense everyone's death? I'm not sure.

Of course, another reason for her to move on was that she had found someone else who was like him.

I don't think she was looking for another Zack within Cloud. Again, taking parts of MoTP:

She also had good feelings towards him. At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn’t get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to.

Passages like that make me believe that she really did want to love Cloud for Cloud, not the Zack parts of him.

Yeah, not just that, but the huge amount of Cloud-Aeris pics there doesn't imply at all that the one who wrote that is neutral and not biased towards Cloud x Aeris.

Cloti shrines with essays (such as cloti-aikou.net) aren't any different.

TurkSlayer

11-01-2005, 06:45 PM

Strangely enough, Aeris never knew that Zack died until they met in the Lifestream. Maybe she can't sense everyone's death? I'm not sure.

I don't have time to write much because I have to be somewhere in seven minutes, but I wanted to point this out. Is what you've said in AC?

Aquarius

11-01-2005, 07:21 PM

Is what you've said in AC?

I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying, but yes, that's what's been stated in MoTP.

TurkSlayer

11-01-2005, 07:57 PM

I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying, but yes, that's what's been stated in MoTP.

Forgive me, but I'm not sure what MoTP is.

Aquarius

11-01-2005, 08:42 PM

Maiden that Travels the Planet, which is Aeris's novella. The translations can be found here: http://www.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/

Tomoe

11-02-2005, 12:42 AM

Well, I do not see these things as incompatibility. I have things, that I do not tell my girlfriend, because everyone has their private factor. And I do not think, that we're incompatible with my girlfriend. :)

And when Cloud "hided" something from Tifa, it was nothing that made them separate. It started when Cloud fell in depression.
Oh it is...Cloud found a "new world that only he knew" and Tifa wasn't part of it, remember?

Granted, you don't see those as incompatibility, but then how do you convince me they are compatible in the first place? :eep:

Actually, I do not think it's only forgiveness. :)
Cloud knows at the end, that he belongs to the "upper world" (it was stated that he do not belong to the "dead world"), and with the "I'm not alone" statement, he indicates, that his friends are there for him, thus he's not alone.
Don't forget, that he felt alone the whole movie, although his friends were there.
Yes, precisely why I feel that "I'm not alone" is not really directed at his friends.

If he would feel that Aerith will be there for him forever, and he would love her romantically, then it would be much logical for me, that he goes back living in the church, and not with Tifa and the children, but at the end, he goes back to 7th Heaven..
I don't see why going back to 7th heaven means he is letting go of Aerith romantically? If he had gone back to living in the church, it would have meant that Cloud did not get the "enlightenment" that Aerith would always be by his side, no matter what --> it would have been back to square 1 :confused:

And don't forget how Cloud answers Tifa's loving look with a smile, before he sees Aerith. That's really much indicates for me, that he don't have to separate himself from her anymore (and note that I do not write anything like eternal love here :)).
I forgot about that, sorry. I thought he was smiling in general to everyone, mostly the kids, didn't catch one directed to Tifa solely.

Well, not for me. :)
No problem at all, just like how your theory wasn't for me :)

Well, I do not see that this page is truly neutral, but anyway, what does it have to do with Advent Children...?
I have no idea what it has to do with AC. I was commenting on it because you were doing so previously :hahaha:

Even though it's written by a Cleris, did he or she twist facts? Like say giving more points to Aerith and blatantly ignore scenes with Tifa? :confused: Otherwise, how can you assume a Cleris cannot be neutral in one particular essay?
Like I've said, unless someone make a good rebuttal of how that page wasn't well written at all, instead of simply commenting that it wasn't good, I wouldn't simply brush it off. --> As neutral as can be. :D

Well, in the first hand, I think Cloud do not want to forget Aerith. Letting go of her romantically does not mean that he wants to forget her. This is why he keeps a flower in front of the group picture of his desk.
But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.
He made them for the children? :eek:

Denzel on Monday: So Cloud, where have you been visiting today?
Cloud: Flowerfields ^_^
Marlene on tuesday: Cloud! What places have you delivered those goods to?
Cloud: Flowerfields ^_^
Denzel & Marlene after 1 week: Wow...that's very interesting... you've been delivering stuff to flowerfields everyday... Is the outside world only made up of flowerfields?
Cloud: Flowerfields....flowerfields...flowerfields.

If flowerfield pictures, after showing the calling with Cloud and Aerith in it, scattered all over his desktop is unromantic i.e. no points for Cleris *beep* , how do you convince me of Cloti, who don't even have such pictures/bonus ending to speak of?

And the flower fields were shown that Aerith is still watching over them as a motherly figure. It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud (don't forget that she gave her blessings to Tifa and Cloud in Maiden over the Planet).
Did Aerith say she is watching them like a motherly figure and not waiting for Cloud?
Strangely, I also thought Tifa was more like a sisterly/motherly figure, smiling for Cloud at the church ending, and not romantic lover.
Are these contradictions due to the fact that I'm pro-Cleris, and you are pro-Cloti? :cry:

silentchild

11-02-2005, 04:02 AM

But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.

Oh...I see....so if I follow your logic, the only places he ever visits and takes photos of are flowerfields, since those happen to be the only photos we see. And they happen to be in his room, on his walls, on his desk. Wouldn't they be in a more appropriate place if it were for the children? Why is he keeping them in his room, his own personal space? Hmm...

It shows nothing that she's waiting for Cloud

Shows 'nothing' she's waiting for Cloud? Please show me where it supports this argument.

(don't forget that she gave her blessings to Tifa and Cloud in Maiden over the Planet).
Reply With Quote

But she couldn't carry out the task. That's why she entrusted Tifa with it.

She entrusted them to the one that was going to "live" together with Cloud...

"LIVE", hence the quotation marks. ALIVE. Not get married and have 10 babies.

"You did it, Tifa. Thank you... I'm a little jealous of you but, do take care of Cloud and the upper world."

Cloud and the upper world. Is Aerith giving her romantical blessing to Tifa and the upper world too? She says it herself, she wants to take care of Cloud herself, that's why she's jealous. She's entrusting Tifa, her best friend, the person most likely to fight alongside Avalanche till the end - to look after everyone, just like how Aerith did. I don't see how this can mean "Marry Cloud and live happily ever after!" Actually, this sentence happens to tie in very nicely with Tifa's maternal feelings towards Cloud in CoT.

Pivi

11-02-2005, 07:08 AM

I see Your points and logic, and although I do not agree with it, but I respect it.

Sorry, I won't quote anything now, I have to go to the university...

Anastar

11-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Well, I do not see these things as incompatibility. I have things, that I do not tell my girlfriend, because everyone has their private factor. And I do not think, that we're incompatible with my girlfriend. :)

And when Cloud "hided" something from Tifa, it was nothing that made them separate. It started when Cloud fell in depression.
We're not saying that hiding things makes you incompatible. The indications of incompatibility come from Tifa's disapproval of his hiding things from her. She was hurt when she found out that Cloud had taken a bouquet to the Forgotten City, and that Cloud hadn't told her. She was hurt when Cloud wouldn't drink with her. She was hurt when Cloud said that he had his own place. She was hurt when Cloud left without explanation. She was hurt when Cloud went to visit the Church without her.

She also showed disapproval of Cloud in other parts of CoT, such as the way he described places to the children. She disapproved of his tendency to be unsociable. In AC, she didn't like the way Cloud wouldn't fight against Geostigma. That's the incompatibility we see.

If you truly believe that Cloud love Aerith from the bottom of his heart in the game and pre-AC, how does receiving forgiveness from Aerith and then saying "I know I'm not alone" suggest that he is letting go of her romantically?
We don't think he let go of Aerith romantically. That's your idea, not ours. We believe that saying, "I know I'm not alone" suggests that Cloud now realizes that Aerith will always be with him.

It's merely your interpretation that AC was about Cloud moving on. It's my interpretation that Cloud is now free of his guilt, which does not automatically mean that he will move on.

If he would feel that Aerith will be there for him forever, and he would love her romantically, then it would be much logical for me, that he goes back living in the church, and not with Tifa and the children, but at the end, he goes back to 7th Heaven.
How do you know that he goes back to live at the 7th Heaven? We saw pictures and flowers on the desk of Cloud's office. That only means that Cloud went back to his office. There's no proof that Cloud went back there to live. That's only your interpretation. For all we know, Cloud will build himself a cottage in the flower field.

And don't forget how Cloud answers Tifa's loving look with a smile, before he sees Aerith. That's really much indicates for me, that he don't have to separate himself from her anymore (and note that I do not write anything like eternal love here :)).
It looked to me as if Cloud barely glanced at Tifa before smiling at everyone. If my boyfriend gave me a look like Tifa gave Cloud, I'd respond with way more than a glance at him. :p

But the flower field photos are nothing romantical for me, I think he made them for the children (they asked him if he can describe the places where he were, but he couldn't, so hes taking photos for them).
It's very unlogical for me that the photos shows romantical love.
Actually, the children were happy with the way Cloud described places. It was Tifa who disapproved of the way he described places. From CoT:

Looking at the names of places on the slips, the children asked Cloud what they were like. Cloud's descriptions were simple. There are lots of people. There are very little people. There's lots of monsters so it's dangerous. Taking the north route is safer. They were descriptions that would make you ask, "is that all?" but the children seemed satisfied. Soon, Tifa wanted to talk too. When she added in more detail, Denzel would ask Cloud if it was true. It annoyed Tifa a little.
The children were satisfied. It was Tifa who wanted more detail. Cloud's explanations were too simple for her taste. More indication of incompatibility.

The photos seem romantic to us because it's very much like having pictures of your girlfriend around your room. It may be impossible to take pictures of Aerith now, but he takes pictures of where she is. He also brings back flowers from the place where she is. AC also showed us that Cloud is able to see Aerith, communicate with Aerith, and touch Aerith, so it's likely that he's able to communicate with her in the flower field. Why are you so sure that Cloud has moved on when it's shown that the flower field - Aerith's place - is so significant to him?

Pivi

11-02-2005, 07:14 PM

Anastar

11-02-2005, 11:59 PM

Sorry, but it's starting to get ridiculous here. You're sounding like You want to convince me, that the Cleris theory is the truthness, and Clerises see things right, and everyone else not.

I have to say, that's a false pov. Even Nomura stated himself, that the love triangle's outcome is based on merely the viewer, and everyone interprets it as he/she likes, there's no official truthness.

So, if You want to see that Cloud go to the flower fields to meet with Aerith, feel free to think it, I don't really care, I disagree with it totally, but oh well. :)
I was merely responding to your post. You had questioned some of our theories as if you thought they were wrong, so I was telling you why we don't think we're wrong.

Cloud did not let go of Aerith yet, so he didn't tell.
He did not sure of himself and in his feelings. He only has starting romantical feelings for Tifa, and not evolved feelings.
You're allowed to theorize, but I really think you should back up your theories. Why should I believe that?

All of these happened when Cloud was depressed, so it has to do nothing with incompatibility.
In Reminiscence, Cloud was on the phone with Tifa in the flower fields, yet Cloud told Tifa that he was making a delivery in Midgar. So it looks to me like he's still keeping things from Tifa. Cloud's visiting a place that he associates with Aerith, which is very similar to Cloud visiting the Church without Tifa and going to the Forgotten City without telling Tifa. Tifa asked Cloud not to do those things because she was hurt by them, yet he continues doing it. Are you so sure he'll change now that he's not depressed?

So, I do not see where is the incompatibility, I just see that Cloud suffers and being depressed, thus he hurts people around him. Don't forget that when he actually realised this, then he left the family.
Where did it say that Cloud left the 7th Heaven when Cloud realized he was hurting them? Moving out hurt Tifa even more. Why would he do something that hurt her even more if he wanted to stop hurting them?

You messed up the quote... I never said that what You quoted "from me"... :)
Ahhh... sorry. I wondered why you said that! :lol:

Exactly. I never said anything what Cloud will do after AC, because how the hell we know...? I think he will move on with Tifa, You (and the Clerises) think that he won't. And...? I have to say again, that there's no official statement about Cloud's love life, so everything is based on interpretation.
Yes, it is. So what makes you think he'll move back in with Tifa? After he and Tifa got along so badly during CoT, I'd be very surprised if Cloud moved back in.

Again, they're not a couple (yet).
I think if SE wanted us to think that Cloud and Tifa became a couple after AC, they would have shown Cloud riding Fenrir back to the Seventh Heaven and taking Tifa into his arms. That would have confirmed that Cloud now realized that Tifa's the best thing that ever happened to him and that he had treated her badly during CoT.

Instead, SE showed Cloud riding out to a place associated with Aerith on Fenrir, Aerith watching him, and then SE showed Cloud off his motorcycle and in the flower field during Reminiscence. Nomura said that the AC title song of Calling plays during a very important scene in the movie. How is an ending which takes place in a flower field associated with Aerith supposed to mean that he gets together with Tifa? How does the scene with Calling mean that he gets together with Tifa when we only see Aerith and Cloud in it?

silentchild

11-03-2005, 07:58 AM

Let's not forget that Tifa actually dissaproves of Cloud's delivery service. Yes, she doesn't like him doing the delivery service. Why? Because it takes him away for long periods of time. It annoys her.

She supported him running it at first, but soon it takes its toll on her.

After Cloud started his delivery service, their "family" life changed greatly. It wasn't too good. Besides morning and late night, Cloud was usually not at home. And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week but it didn't stop Cloud from his job. It wasn't hard for Cloud to turn down requests. I just wanted us to be able to take a day off together now and then but, I suppressed that selfishness in me.

Tifa forced herself to talk to Cloud. When Marlene was near, she would pick something positive, something that wouldn't turn the conversation into a serious matter. Cloud was bewildered at the way Tifa changed but guessing at what she was doing, he went along with the mood and talked to her.

If it wasn't incompability, why would even Tifa herself, who supposedly loves Cloud, have to 'force herself' to talk to him, only when the children are around? Not only that, Cloud senses their incompability and doesn't make it up to Tifa. Instead, he just casually plays along with her little fake conversations when the children are around, otherwise, not talking to he at all.

Does that seem like a healthy, compatible relationship to you?

No, I do not see this has anything to do with guilt or depression. I think that Cloud will not move on with Tifa, especially since it is so hard for them to tolerate each other's perfectly opposites way of living.

Pivi

11-03-2005, 09:09 AM

You're allowed to theorize, but I really think you should back up your theories. Why should I believe that?
Read Case of Tifa unbiased, and You will see romance in there. :)
Actually, the problem is, that You (and most of the biased Clerises and Clotis) want to see something in the compilation, and actually, they see it, because they twist everything in their liking (note that biased Clerises and biased Clotis are behaving the same here).
That's why I do not agree with the biased Cleris theory and the biased Cloti theories.
I read CoT, and it was very clear that Cloud wanted to move on with Tifa, he showed affection to her, but he actually can't move on because of Aerith's memory. And I think he will move on, because he let go of Aerith romantically in the movie.

You don't have to believe in it, I do not want to convince anyone that my theory is the truthness, because in the first hand, there's no official truthness-theory, it was stated by Nomura.
I respect every theories that are not close-minded, but I do not care this much about the compilation, it's just a video game. Some people take this too seriously, and overanalyzes everything.

In Reminiscence, Cloud was on the phone with Tifa in the flower fields, yet Cloud told Tifa that he was making a delivery in Midgar. So it looks to me like he's still keeping things from Tifa.
Now that's the twisting I talked about. :)
Everytime You see a flower field, it has to connected to Aerith somehow. No, I don't think so.

Are you so sure he'll change now that he's not depressed?
Yes, very much. :)

Where did it say that Cloud left the 7th Heaven when Cloud realized he was hurting them?
And when was it stated anywhere that he's in eternal romantical love with Aerith, and everything he does, has to do anything with Aerith...?
Nowhere. That's what I was talking about, there's nothing that clearly states anything, and everything is based on interpretation.

Moving out hurt Tifa even more. Why would he do something that hurt her even more if he wanted to stop hurting them?
Being with Tifa, when Cloud is depressed hurts Tifa and the children much more, than being away. Yes, it hurts them that he's not with them, but his depression and behaviour hurts them even more, if he's with them, thus he leaves. At the end of CoT, Cloud smiled at Tifa with a lot of care, and after that he left. That was the time, when he realised that he has to go away to not hurt his family more.

So what makes you think he'll move back in with Tifa?
Oh, simply the fact (in my opinion), that he does not have to feel depressed because of Aerith, and becuase he let go of her romantically. Now his feelings for Tifa can evolve. And I never said that it will.

I think if SE wanted us to think that Cloud and Tifa became a couple after AC, they would have shown Cloud riding Fenrir back to the Seventh Heaven and taking Tifa into his arms. That would have confirmed that Cloud now realized that Tifa's the best thing that ever happened to him and that he had treated her badly during CoT.
If SE would do that, they would lose a lot of fans, who supports the CloudxAerith couple, and they did not wanted to do that. Actually, they supported the CloudxTifa and the CloudxAerith couple also, so every fan can interpret anything he/she likes.

Nomura said that the AC title song of Calling plays during a very important scene in the movie.
Errr, why do You think that a "very important scene" has to do anything with romance...? The last scene showed how Cloud is free, and how he can answer the phone with his friends, without his struggle and depression. Where is the romance here...? Yes, I think it's an important scene, but nothing romantic.

Let's not forget that Tifa actually dissaproves of Cloud's delivery service. Yes, she doesn't like him doing the delivery service. Why? Because it takes him away for long periods of time. It annoys her.
Well, it's his job, he can't do anything about it. I don't see what it has to do with incompatibility, I have a similar job (being a musician and touring in the country), and my girlfriend acknoledged it.

Does that seem like a healthy, compatible relationship to you?
Well, this only reinforces my theory that they're not yet a couple, because of Aerith's memory. Cloud can't move on, before he lets go of Aerith (what he does at the end of the movie in my opinion).

No, I do not see this has anything to do with guilt or depression.
Oh, but I'm pretty sure of it. :)

Anastar

11-03-2005, 01:58 PM

@silentchild - Well said. I completely agree. That's the way I saw it, too.

Read Case of Tifa unbiased, and You will see romance in there. :)
Actually, the problem is, that You (and most of the biased Clerises and Clotis) want to see something in the compilation, and actually, they see it, because they twist everything in their liking (note that biased Clerises and biased Clotis are behaving the same here).
That's why I do not agree with the biased Cleris theory and the biased Cloti theories.
And what makes you so sure that your theories are unbiased? You say that I will see romance between Cloud and Tifa in CoT if I read it in a way that agrees with YOUR interpretation of it. So you saw in the story what you want to see, and you want me to see in the story what you saw. How is that unbiased?

I read CoT, and it was very clear that Cloud wanted to move on with Tifa, he showed affection to her, but he actually can't move on because of Aerith's memory. And I think he will move on, because he let go of Aerith romantically in the movie.
That's your interpretation of the story. It wasn't my interpretation of the story. I saw something very different.

You don't have to believe in it, I do not want to convince anyone that my theory is the truthness, because in the first hand, there's no official truthness-theory, it was stated by Nomura.
I respect every theories that are not close-minded, but I do not care this much about the compilation, it's just a video game. Some people take this too seriously, and overanalyzes everything.
Then why discuss it in a thread? People give you their interpretation, you call them biased, then give no reason for your interpretation. What does that accomplish?

Now that's the twisting I talked about. :)
Everytime You see a flower field, it has to connected to Aerith somehow. No, I don't think so.
I associate the flower field with Aerith because she was shown in the flower field as Cloud approached it. In Reminiscence, we see Cloud off his bike, and Cloud in the flower field. We see flowers from the flower field in his office, pictures of the flower field over the desk in his office, and pictures of the flower field on the desk in his office. That indicates that the flower field has great significance to Cloud, and Aerith was seen in the flower field as Cloud approached. Why would the flower field hold such significance for Cloud if he's "gotten over" Aerith?

Flowers in general are associated with Aerith are associated with Aerith because she was a flower girl. Aerith also grew flowers in her Church. When Cloud was riding to the Forgotten City to rescue the children, Aerith appeared to him in a different flower field. That's why we associate flower fields with Aerith, and the one seen in Calling and Reminiscence in particular.

Are you so sure he'll change now that he's not depressed?
Yes, very much. :)
You've yet to say why. I still see Cloud withholding information from Tifa in Reminiscence when he's no longer depressed. It doesn't look to me like he's changed. He's still doing one of the very things that annoyed her in CoT.

And when was it stated anywhere that he's in eternal romantical love with Aerith, and everything he does, has to do anything with Aerith...?
Nowhere. That's what I was talking about, there's nothing that clearly states anything, and everything is based on interpretation.
And when was it stated that he'll move on with Tifa?

Being with Tifa, when Cloud is depressed hurts Tifa and the children much more, than being away. Yes, it hurts them that he's not with them, but his depression and behaviour hurts them even more, if he's with them, thus he leaves. At the end of CoT, Cloud smiled at Tifa with a lot of care, and after that he left. That was the time, when he realised that he has to go away to not hurt his family more.
Where did it say that he smiled at Tifa with a lot of care? Where did it say that he realized he had to go away not to hurt his family any more? Where does it say that Cloud considers Tifa and the children to be his family? That's only your interpretation.

Oh, simply the fact (in my opinion), that he does not have to feel depressed because of Aerith, and becuase he let go of her romantically. Now his feelings for Tifa can evolve. And I never said that it will.
I agree that Cloud doesn't have to feel depressed because of Aerith now, but what indicates that he let go of her romantically? The mere fact that the flower field holds such great significance to Cloud tells me that he hasn't moved on romantically. It could happen, but where is there indication that it will happen?

Errr, why do You think that a "very important scene" has to do anything with romance...? The last scene showed how Cloud is free, and how he can answer the phone with his friends, without his struggle and depression. Where is the romance here...? Yes, I think it's an important scene, but nothing romantic.
Cloud rides Fenrir to a place associated with Aerith, takes pictures of it, picks flowers from there, and brings them back to his office. That means he wants to remember it and spend time in the flower field. That means Aerith is still significant to him, and he likes to spend time in a place where he can feel her presence. That says to me that Cloud hasn't "let go" of Aerith and that he hasn't "moved on".

Sefie1999AD

11-03-2005, 04:22 PM

Does that seem like a healthy, compatible relationship to you?

Aeris is dead, Cloud is alive. And still you think they have a healthy, compatible relationship? :p

*~*EnglishRose*~*

11-03-2005, 05:49 PM

seeing as though I have nothing to quote, I would like to make my first post in these forums on my opinion, and then you guys can have a good long quoting session. ^_^

In FF7, Cloud talks of pain when Aerith dies.

"What is this...pain?"

Cloud grieves so much when Aerith dies, Not surprising if someone who meant alot to you dies.

I don't think anyone can forget the slip-up Cloud made at the Cosmo Candle...

"But I'm--- we're here for you, right?"

That quote was not made by the Creators by accident. Could they be possible suggesting that Cloud maybe had some feelings for Aerith? After all, they were the one who put that piece of dialogue in there. :p

Have you ever seen the special little moments between Cloud and Aerith? *squee* The time she made him laugh, his slip-up of course, what about when Aerith reaches out to him, and, according to MotP, she helps him find himself when he suffers from Mako poisoning. She gives Tifa the job, and admits she is jealous. Who wouldn't, if the man you love can't reach you physically, and you yourself have stuff to do? :lol:

This does not mean that Aerith gave her "blessing" for Cloud and Tifa to be together. When does she say, "It's ok, you go out with Tifa, since I've been completely assassinated by the guy who wants to rule the world."? Nowhere. so where do you guys get the idea that Aerith wants Cloud to be with Tifa?

Anastar

11-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Aeris is dead, Cloud is alive. And still you think they have a healthy, compatible relationship? :p
Who said they had a relationship? I said that Cloud continues to love her, and that Aerith continues to love Cloud. Cloud wants to remember Aerith (shown by the pink ribbon he wears, the flowers on the desk, the pictures of the flower field on the desk, and moving into her Church). Since the flower field is very significant to Cloud, it's pretty obvious that Cloud spends a lot of time in the flower field where Aerith is. We learned in AC that Aerith and Cloud are able to see one another, communicate with one another, and touch one another.

When Cloud was depressed, he didn't talk about it with Tifa. Instead, he told Tifa that he wanted to drink alone. Tifa was threatened by that, yelled at him, and told him to go to his room. When Tifa tried to talk to him about it in AC, Cloud remained almost silent, kept his back to Tifa, and looked out the window at an angel statue (which could easily represent Aerith). However, he talked about it to Aerith easily when he met with her on his way to the Forgotten City.

If Cloud has such a trusting and compatible relationship with Tifa, why did he choose to talk about it with Aerith instead of Tifa?

Karl

11-03-2005, 06:30 PM

im glad there is a game/movie that doesnt have a love story that takes over the plot, love stories shouldnt mix with action :mad:

Pivi

11-03-2005, 07:36 PM

Hi Rose!!! :bigsmile:

And what makes you so sure that your theories are unbiased?
Well, because actually, I do not give a sh*t about Cloud's love life, and I do not want him to end up with Tifa (or Aerith). The thing that I see a big possibility for them has to do nothing with "OMG, they're destined to be together".
I just do not care that much about the whole compilation.

You say that I will see romance between Cloud and Tifa in CoT if I read it in a way that agrees with YOUR interpretation of it.
Hah, actually, no. :)
I have a lot of Cleris friends, who saw romance in CoT. Are they not Clerises then...?

So you saw in the story what you want to see, and you want me to see in the story what you saw. How is that unbiased?
Hmmm, what do I want to see in the story...? Please be that kind, and tell me. :)

That's your interpretation of the story. It wasn't my interpretation of the story. I saw something very different.
And...? :confused:

Then why discuss it in a thread?
Because discussing is fun. :)

Why would the flower field hold such significance for Cloud if he's "gotten over" Aerith?
Because he do not want to forget her. I never said that now he'll forget her, and will never remember her.
I think she'll stay in his heart forever, but he won't love her romantically eternally.

I still see Cloud withholding information from Tifa in Reminiscence when he's no longer depressed.
What does he hold back from her...? That he stopped to get a flower, and stopped, to call her...? I think if he would hold back anything from Tifa, he wouldn't put that flower directly in front of the photo, but instead he would hide anything that represents Aerith, away from Tifa. But he does not do this.

And when was it stated that he'll move on with Tifa?
When was I stated that it was stated...? :)

Where did it say that he smiled at Tifa with a lot of care?
From CoT:
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled. It had that kindness that made her think everything was all right.

That's only your interpretation.
Of course! So...?

It could happen, but where is there indication that it will happen?
Again, where do I stated that all of my interpretation will happen...? I even said that Cloud and Tifa has a possibility, and I never said that it's a fact that they'll end up together.

All in all, at the end of AC, I see a single Cloud, with possibility for Cloti, that's all.

That says to me that Cloud hasn't "let go" of Aerith and that he hasn't "moved on".
Well, it says to me, that he want to remember Aerith, because she'll be dear to him. But it has to do nothing with romantical love.

Aquarius

11-03-2005, 07:53 PM

Aeris is dead, Cloud is alive. And still you think they have a healthy, compatible relationship?

The "Cloud loves necrophilia!!" joke got old a long time ago.

Anastar

11-03-2005, 09:33 PM

Well, because actually, I do not give a sh*t about Cloud's love life, and I do not want him to end up with Tifa (or Aerith). The thing that I see a big possibility for them has to do nothing with "OMG, they're destined to be together".
I just do not care that much about the whole compilation.
You don't want him to end up with Tifa, but you seem quite sure that Cloud will move on with Tifa?

Hah, actually, no. :)
I have a lot of Cleris friends, who saw romance in CoT. Are they not Clerises then...?
And you've yet to tell me where you saw this romance. I'm not going to make judgements about the opinions of people I do not know.

Hmmm, what do I want to see in the story...? Please be that kind, and tell me. :)
From what you've told me, I would say that you want to see Cloud move on with Tifa. Since you don't explain what you're basing your opinion on, then I'm assuming that you must think that "moving on" would be what's best for Cloud and therefore it will happen.

And...? :confused:
Just giving you a taste of your own medicine. ;)

Because he do not want to forget her. I never said that now he'll forget her, and will never remember her.
I think she'll stay in his heart forever, but he won't love her romantically eternally.
What do you base that on, and why does that mean that he'll move on with Tifa?

What does he hold back from her...? That he stopped to get a flower, and stopped, to call her...? I think if he would hold back anything from Tifa, he wouldn't put that flower directly in front of the photo, but instead he would hide anything that represents Aerith, away from Tifa. But he does not do this.
If Cloud continues acting the way he did in CoT, then he may have simply said, "I found this by the side of the road" and never mentioned what it had to do with Aerith. How do you know he told Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know he told Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do you know he told Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?

I haven't heard Reminiscence myself, but the majority of people seem to think that Tifa called Cloud. They tell me the sounds before Tifa's call are the same as when Cloud received phone calls from the other people.

Another thing he hid from Tifa is why he's taking the day off. That's something Tifa wanted him to do in CoT, but he refused. Now he decides to take a day off, but he doesn't ask her to join him. Please don't say that he may be planning to surprise her, because that's extremely OOC for Cloud.

From CoT:
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled. It had that kindness that made her think everything was all right.
In the first place, you said "caring". Caring and kindness often go together, but they're not the same thing. For example, I may be kind and help an elderly woman cross the street, but that doesn't mean I'll continue caring for that woman for the rest of her life. So an act of kindness can exist without actual long-term caring and/or love.

Secondly, that's from Tifa's point of view, and she goes on to say that it may have been an illusion. In other words, she thought it was kindness at the time, but it may have been something else. If Tifa's not sure that's what it was, why are you sure?

Again, where do I stated that all of my interpretation will happen...? I even said that Cloud and Tifa has a possibility, and I never said that it's a fact that they'll end up together.
Okay... then you should also accept the possibility as well as the interpretation that Cloud and Tifa will not end up together.

Well, it says to me, that he want to remember Aerith, because she'll be dear to him. But it has to do nothing with romantical love.
Someone wanting to remember a loved one who has passed away is often an indication of romantic love, so it can be interpreted that way. I interpret the significance of the flower field to Cloud as being indication that he will spend lots of time there. Wanting to spend a great deal of time at the resting place of a loved one who passed away is indication that you loved them. MotP indicates that Aerith has retained her form in the Lifestream due to her love for Cloud, and that Aerith wants to communicate her love to Cloud:

Slanting her head to the side, she thought more about it.

"Will I be able to talk to Cloud somewhere? So that I can tell him I'm fine... It's kind of odd saying I'm fine but maybe I can be "clearer" about myself here."

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".
AC also showed us that the same boundaries between those who are dead and those who are alive in our world does not exist between Aerith and Cloud because they are able to communicate with one another, see one another, and touch one another, so Aerith would be able to communicate this to Cloud. If Aerith wants them recognized as lovers, then Aerith must realize that Cloud has the same feelings for her as she she has for him. Aerith still had her form in AC, so her feelings for Cloud have not changed. She also said in MotP that she would have stayed with Cloud forever and ever, if possible. Since Aerith thinks their feelings were reciprocated, then Cloud feels the same way. That's a love that will never die.

Sefie1999AD

11-03-2005, 10:04 PM

The "Cloud loves necrophilia!!" joke got old a long time ago.

The "Cloud loves Aeris!!" joke got old a long time ago.

shown by the pink ribbon he wears

First, the ribbon is red (not pink!), and second, everyone wears the ribbon, including Tifa, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Red XIII, Cait Sith and Yuffie.

Night Strife

11-03-2005, 10:31 PM

Isn't that in memory of Aeris?

Aquarius

11-04-2005, 05:30 AM

The "Cloud loves Aeris!!" joke got old a long time ago.

Well hey, that's your opinion. I'm not denying that Cloud does love Tifa, so I'm not going down to that level. I'd appreciate if you could do the same, like Pivi and respect other theories.

Pivi

11-04-2005, 06:02 AM

You don't want him to end up with Tifa, but you seem quite sure that Cloud will move on with Tifa?
Heh, what is this have to do with being biased?
If there's a trial, and I do not see the convict guilty, does it mean that I like him/her? No, of course not.
Thus, because I see possibility for Cloti, is not makes me a biased Cloti.

And you've yet to tell me where you saw this romance. I'm not going to make judgements about the opinions of people I do not know.
The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?

From what you've told me, I would say that you want to see Cloud move on with Tifa.
You can't be much wronger. I really do not care for them that much. :)

Since you don't explain what you're basing your opinion on, then I'm assuming that you must think that "moving on" would be what's best for Cloud and therefore it will happen.
Again, should I repeat myself? I hope not, read back my posts more clearly. I never said anything will happen.

Just giving you a taste of your own medicine. ;)
But you do not make any sense...

What do you base that on, and why does that mean that he'll move on with Tifa?
Based on my interpretation on the whole compilation. Wow, who thought, eh...?

If Cloud continues acting the way he did in CoT, then he may have simply said, "I found this by the side of the road" and never mentioned what it had to do with Aerith.
I have bolded the word for You. But he does not have geostigma, so I don't think he would.

How do you know he told Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know he told Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do you know he told Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?
How do you know he did not tell Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know that he did not tell Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do You know he did not tell Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?
And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes? I don't think Aerith can appear for him that much, and that easily.

I haven't heard Reminiscence myself
How can You use something in a debate that You're not familiar with...?

but the majority of people seem to think that Tifa called Cloud.
From the Bonus Calls translation:

Call 5 [0:16:36]

Cloud:

Hey, it's me. I've only got one more package to deliver to Midgar. Has there been any more requests...?
....
No, turn that one down. I'm making tomorrow a holiday.
....
Nothing special... Say Tifa, can you close the shop?
....
Not hard is it.
....
OK. Let Denzel and Marlene know too. See you later, then.
Do You answer a phone call with a 'Hey, it's me', followed by a full sentence, and not asking what the caller wants...? Because there's no people who acts like this.
So Cloud called Tifa. He stopped to call her if there's anything else to do.

Another thing he hid from Tifa is why he's taking the day off. That's something Tifa wanted him to do in CoT, but he refused. Now he decides to take a day off, but he doesn't ask her to join him. Please don't say that he may be planning to surprise her, because that's extremely OOC for Cloud.
He's taking a dayout with all of his friends. That's what the Reminisence calls are about, so You should listen to it (or read the call translations), before You make false interpretations of the scenes...

Secondly, that's from Tifa's point of view, and she goes on to say that it may have been an illusion. In other words, she thought it was kindness at the time, but it may have been something else. If Tifa's not sure that's what it was, why are you sure?
Having read through all of Case of Tifa, and knowing how deeply Cloud care for Tifa (being it romantic or not, it's not matter at this time), it wasn't an illusion, and that's why I made my interpretation, as I made.

Also, do not forget the staff interview:

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?

Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.
It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.

From CoT:
At least now she understood the sadness and pain she felt, tearing her heart apart as she visited the place. Being a member of Avalanche and being with a large group of people gave her these feelings. The tears wouldn't stop.

"I'm sorry, I'm really sorry."

She felt Cloud's hand on her shoulder. He held onto her firmly so that she wouldn't go anywhere. For now, she was just going to let herself cry as much as she felt like. Then she was going to leave the rest to him.

Alone, she just didn't know what she could do.

Okay... then you should also accept the possibility as well as the interpretation that Cloud and Tifa will not end up together.
Of course I accept, as I said, I respect every theories that are not close-minded. I do not really care, if Cloud dies single in an age of, say, 85, and reunites with Aerith. I do not think that it will happen, but I see the possibility for this also, not just for Cloud and Tifa.

Someone wanting to remember a loved one who has passed away is often an indication of romantic love, so it can be interpreted that way.
Yes, I agree with this one, but the word is interpretation here again.

If Aerith wants them recognized as lovers, then Aerith must realize that Cloud has the same feelings for her as she she has for him.
He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7, and Cloud's depression only came when he contracted geostigma.

Aerith still had her form in AC, so her feelings for Cloud have not changed.
Hmmm, her feelings are much more caring feelings in AC then romantical for me...
Yes, it was clear that she loved Cloud romantically, but somehow after I read Maiden, I had the impression, that he changed to a "mother" figure (not because of the "Mother" comment in AC), and she cared not only for Cloud, but for everyone. So I had the impression, that she let go of him romantically.

And another question is, if Aerith can manifestate herself that easily in the "upper world", then why didn't she do that...? If she loves Cloud that much romantically, why didn't she manifestate when he was depressed, and when he started struggling because of geostigma...? She made very few appearances through AC, and that's just for stirring Cloud to the right direction, and not to confess their love.

Even Cloud did not behave like one, who is eternally in love with her... He wanted forgiveness from her, and not to be with her forever.

That's a love that will never die.
If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.

Anastar

11-04-2005, 03:44 PM

The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?
No need to quote them. I know the blushing scene and I don't find it romantic. I interpreted that as simple embarrassment. The holding scene? You mean where Cloud puts his hand on her shoulder? Again, that was from Tifa's point of view. Tifa thought it felt like Cloud didn't want to let her go. How did Cloud feel about it? I'd like to know what Cloud is feeling at that moment... not Tifa.

Even IF the gesture meant that Cloud didn't want to let her go, why do you assume that it has a romantic basis? How do you know it's not because he didn't want his friend to meet a fate similar to Aerith? How do you know that the gesture doesn't reflect his grief over Aerith rather than his feelings for Tifa? A father, for example, may put his hand on his daughter's shoulder in the same way during his wife's funeral. The gesture reflects the man's grief for his wife and caring for his daughter. Does it portray love in a romantic sense for the daughter? No.

and nearly everything before he got geostigma
Nearly everything?!? :lol: So Barret's in love with Tifa, too? Barret travelled with Tifa, talked with Tifa, drank with Tifa, and helped Tifa rebuild the Seventh Heaven along with Cloud. Barret moved into the Seventh Heaven, too. I don't see Barret acting any differently towards Tifa than Cloud during the early part of CoT, so are you saying that Barret's in love with Tifa, too?

And by the way... I don't think it was ever specified at what point Cloud contracted Geostigma, was it? Are you just assuming that he must have gotten Geostigma at the same time his behavior changed? That's a pretty large assumption, since I see several other factors affecting his behavior.

What do you base that on, and why does that mean that he'll move on with Tifa?
Based on my interpretation on the whole compilation. Wow, who thought, eh...?
No, not the whole compilation. I'm asking what you have taken from AC, CoT, and MotP to base your interpretation on.

If Cloud continues acting the way he did in CoT, then he may have simply said, "I found this by the side of the road" and never mentioned what it had to do with Aerith.
I have bolded the word for You. But he does not have geostigma, so I don't think he would.
But I don't think that Geostigma was the only reason for his actions toward Tifa in CoT. Therefore, I think he would act that way.

Again, it was never specified at what point he got Geostigma, so how do you know it was only Geostigma that made him act that way? I see him continuing to act that way now that he doesn't have Geostigma when he doesn't tell Tifa that he's in the flower field, and when he doesn't tell Tifa why he's taking the day off in Reminiscence.

How do you know he did not tell Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know that he did not tell Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do You know he did not tell Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?
How do you know that he did? If he didn't tell Tifa that he was in the flower field in the same way he didn't tell Tifa that he delivered a bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra, then it's more likely that he didn't.

And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes?
Because Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith and see her in AC.

I haven't heard Reminiscence myself
How can You use something in a debate that You're not familiar with...?
Where did I say I wasn't familiar with it? I said I hadn't *HEARD* it, which means I have not heard the recording, so I can't speak about the sounds. However, I have read the translation several times, and I have seen many screenshots from it.... so I am familiar with it, thank you.

Do You answer a phone call with a 'Hey, it's me', followed by a full sentence, and not asking what the caller wants...? Because there's no people who acts like this.
So Cloud called Tifa. He stopped to call her if there's anything else to do.
Here’s what people who have heard it say about whether Tifa called Cloud, or whether Cloud called Tifa. The first is from Clorith at ACF:

Alright everyone. Everybody, go watch Reminiscence again. I can't believe we're still harping over who's calling. >__< Tifa calls Cloud, that is very obvious. The first thing we hear is the phone ringing, then a click as Cloud opens it, then the sound of Cloud pressing the button to take the call. I think those in doubt have forgotten that this entire scene is viewed from a third person's (Aerith's) perspective. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to be able to hear Tifa answering the phone, yet at the same time be unable to hear her speak. Not only that, when the conversation ends, we again hear Cloud press that button, followed by him flipping his phone close. Seriously, all this is as clear as day, and makes complete sense. The call interrupts Cloud while he is in the flower field, Cloud does not make a call. Just listen to the clip carefully.

From yin-chan at ACF:

Yes, you also hear the sound of him flipping open the phone and pressing the 'answer button'.

If it were the sound of him calling Tifa, I don't see how she can flip open that bulky phone in Seventh Heaven, or press any button to answer, for that matter. Besides, you wouldn't be able to hear the other side press a button if you were calling.
As I said, the sounds heard in the recording make it quite clear that Tifa is calling Cloud. I've heard the same report from other people.

He's taking a dayout with all of his friends. That's what the Reminisence calls are about, so You should listen to it (or read the call translations), before You make false interpretations of the scenes...
The Reminiscence calls are not all about Cloud taking a day off with all of his friends. Yuffie’s trying to call, but Cloud doesn’t answer, so she calls Cid and Vincent and has them call Cloud. Cid calls and tells Cloud that Yuffie wants him to stop by Barret’s to pick something up. Then Vincent calls to tell him the same thing. Then Barret calls. He says that he has a present to give Cloud from Yuffie. When Cloud opens the present, it’s a “Shop Closed” sign.

Now… if the "Shop Closed" sign was to close BOTH the Seventh Heaven and Cloud’s shop, then why would Yuffie give it to Barret to give to Cloud? Wouldn’t Yuffie just give the sign to Tifa? Since Yuffie gives it to Barret to give to Cloud, and since Yuffie says it's a present specifically for Cloud, then the sign is *only* for Cloud’s shop. There’s nothing about anyone but Cloud taking the day off during Reminiscence.

Another indication that we get from Yuffie giving the sign to Barret instead of Tifa is that Yuffie knows it will bother Tifa. Why would Tifa be bothered? Because Cloud intends to take the day off without including Tifa in his plans. :lol:

Having read through all of Case of Tifa, and knowing how deeply Cloud care for Tifa (being it romantic or not, it's not matter at this time), it wasn't an illusion, and that's why I made my interpretation, as I made.
I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend. He doesn’t have to care about her in a romantic sense. I make my interpretation that it was an illusion on the basis of how poorly Cloud and Tifa got along during Case of Tifa while Cloud lived in Seventh Heaven. Even Marlene told Barret that Cloud and Tifa were getting along badly.

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?
Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.
Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Nojima also says that it was the peaceful life that Cloud was living with Tifa that made Cloud anxious, not the Geostigma. People don’t enjoy a lifestyle which makes them feel anxious, do they? How do you know that the same lifestyle won’t make him anxious now, since Geostigma had nothing to do with it? How do you know that other things weren’t bothering Cloud about that lifestyle?

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.
According to your interpretation. According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility. More than anything else, however, you have Tifa asking Cloud near the end of CoT whether he loves her. All Cloud gives her is a dubious look. How can you think that Cloud acts romantically to Tifa when all he gives her is a dubious look when she asks that?!?

If my boyfriend gave me nothing but a dubious look when I asked him if he loved me, I would know that his response translated into “NO” - loud and clear. Then again, I wouldn’t even need to ask my boyfriend such a thing, because I already know how he feels from his words and actions to me. So why doesn’t Tifa know? Probably because their interactions haven’t been romantic. :lol:

It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.
Cloud’s behavior didn’t change as suddenly as you claim. There was a gradual progression of Cloud detaching himself. At first they were traveling and busy with re-building the Seventh Heaven. I saw the change in personality start soon after he moved into the Seventh Heaven.

As for Cloud’s actions at the Forgotten City, remember what I said above about the father showing grief for his wife by holding his daughter’s shoulder? People have different ways of showing their grief. Females more commonly display their grief through tears than men do. Some may choose to stay silent and seem depressed, whereas others will keep themselves constantly occupied with work, exercise or other responsibilities. Cloud stayed busy during FFVII chasing Sephiroth, defeating the Weapons, defeating Hojo, etc. At the end of the game, he was most likely still figuring things out for himself. He probably didn’t know what he was going to do or where he was going to go. He kept his feelings inside, and kept himself busy with traveling and re-building the Seventh Heaven. If Cloud wasn’t still experiencing grief, then why did he come home after taking the bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra and drink alcohol? That was unusual for Cloud, and an expression of his grief. From CoT:

Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."
Cloud closed his eyes.
Tifa "Lets work hard together."
Cloud didn't answer.
Notice that Cloud doesn’t even answer when Tifa asked whether “we” are enough for Cloud? Is that how you would respond to someone whom you loved?!? Then Tifa offers to work together with him to resolve the problem. Again, Cloud doesn’t answer. That says to me that he doesn’t want her help. (BTW, I see this passage to be another example of their incompatibility.)

Later, Tifa asked him again whether the problem referred to in the above passage had been resolved and Cloud answered, "The problem isn't resolved. Well, there was no attempt at resolving it for a long time I think. You can't retrieve lost lives."

His main problem is the inability to retrieve lost lives. If the inability to retrieve lost lives is his main problem, then the loss of Aerith is still Cloud’s main problem, and therefore he is still experiencing grief at her loss. You can also tell that he misses Aerith if her loss is still his main problem. And even Tifa realizes that she isn’t enough.

He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7
Please give me quotes to substantiate what you're saying.

Hmmm, her feelings are much more caring feelings in AC then romantical for me...
Yes, it was clear that she loved Cloud romantically, but somehow after I read Maiden, I had the impression, that he changed to a "mother" figure (not because of the "Mother" comment in AC), and she cared not only for Cloud, but for everyone. So I had the impression, that she let go of him romantically.
Then why is Aerith’s form still showing at the end of the movie in Calling? Why does Aerith turn as Cloud approaches the flower field on Fenrir?

And another question is, if Aerith can manifestate herself that easily in the "upper world", then why didn't she do that...? If she loves Cloud that much romantically, why didn't she manifestate when he was depressed, and when he started struggling because of geostigma...? She made very few appearances through AC, and that's just for stirring Cloud to the right direction, and not to confess their love.
I thought she did. We heard the recording of her voice over the cell phone as it dropped into the water, so she had apparently attempted to contact him. His grief and/or guilt may have made him “shut down his mind” to the point that it was difficult for her to reach him, similar to how it was difficult to reach him in MotP when Sephiroth shattered his mind at the Reunion. It may also be that Sephiroth’s remnants made it difficult for Aerith to reach Cloud’s mind. However, Cloud went to her Church to live. Why would he go to a place associated with Aerith to live the remainder of his life? Most people want to spend their remaining days with those who are most precious to them.

It may also be that SE simply wanted to leave it up to speculation whether or not Cloud had communicated with Aerith during the two years prior to AC because we didn’t get a story from Cloud’s perspective. I would actually say that Cloud had communicated with Aerith before AC. Otherwise, why didn’t Cloud show any surprise at Aerith’s appearance in the flower field as he approached the Forgotten City to rescue the children?

Even Cloud did not behave like one, who is eternally in love with her... He wanted forgiveness from her, and not to be with her forever.
Moving to Aerith’s Church, visiting Aerith’s flower field, taking pictures of Aerith’s flower field, and picking flowers from Aerith’s flower field all seem like demonstrations of Cloud’s desire to be with Aerith to me. Telling Tifa that his main problem is the inability “to retrieve lost lives” is basically saying that he wants Aerith back, which means that he wants to be with her.

If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?
Answered above.

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.
But Vincent and Lucrecia’s love is not a romantic love that will never die. Lucrecia didn’t love Vincent. So, Vincent is actually acting like someone whose love for a woman was never returned. :lol:

(Pssst... yo, Pivi! We say “romantic” in English, not “romantical”.)

silentchild

11-04-2005, 04:21 PM

Whoa..look at the explosion of immense proportioned posts...

Let's settle this. Cloud cares for Tifa. As a sibling-like relationship. Face it, if he truly loved her, like you claim he did in the beginning of CoT, he would not have let the death of Aerith get in the way of giving her a happier life.

He cares for Tifa - and he will look after her now AC is over. But he will NOT move on romantically with her. It would be too much like incest for him.

And sephiroth whatever-your-nickname-is, if you don't have anything constructive to contribute, don't contribute at all. We don't need your stupid necrophilliac jokes here.

*~*EnglishRose*~*

11-04-2005, 04:33 PM

Hey Pivi!! :lol:

May I intrude on this discussion a little bit more? :)

The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?

Can I mention the Cosmo Candle scene, the laughing scene where Cloud is amused, and even smiles at Aerith's humor, and--dare I say-- the default date with her? Can I mention the handreach scene, the scene where-- according to your way of thinking, (no offence)-- the woman Cloud loves is in his arms, and Cloud talks about a completely different woman, and trying/thinking of meeting her in the Promised Land? :eek:

And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes?

In AC, she appeared to him quite a few times in a couple of days... or was it one? I forget. :lol:

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.
It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.

Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. Because of Geostigma. Makes sense. By why did he move to the Church? Can you answer that for me?

Tifa cries, because Aerith and Tifa were best friends. There was no rivalry, and no Tifa and Aerith bashing. They were wonderful friends, and for a woman to cry is not rare. Cloud is the sort of man who holds back his emotions, even though he did cry and get upset when the actual killing took place. He held Aerith close when she died, he was grieving, and even Sephiroth was surprised he showed emotion.

He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7, and Cloud's depression only came when he contracted geostigma.

If that statement is correct, then I am obliged to say that he can't have anything romantical toward Tifa at all. :p He is single.

And anyway, if Aerith managed to move on from Cloud, then Cloud should be able to move on from Tifa... :tongue:

If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.

True Love is the same, but comes in many forms. Cloud and Aerith shared more than special moments, thought they were cute moments. ^_^

Aerith could visit Cloud in dreams, she reached out to him, and even worked with Tifa to help Cloud get back on his feet when they entered the Lifestream. Those are just examples.

Pivi

11-04-2005, 10:33 PM

No need to quote them. I know the blushing scene and I don't find it romantic.
Yes, that's exactly why I don't like to quote anything from the compilation, because I know most of the Cleris povs, thus I know how they interpret things differently.

Nearly everything?!? :lol: So Barret's in love with Tifa, too?
Please. You know that i do not meant every single word, just that I interpreted romance out of the first part of CoT. :)

Are you just assuming that he must have gotten Geostigma at the same time his behavior changed?
Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

No, not the whole compilation. I'm asking what you have taken from AC, CoT, and MotP to base your interpretation on.
When I refer to the compilation, I refer to FF7, LO, CoT and MotP. :)

But I don't think that Geostigma was the only reason for his actions toward Tifa in CoT. Therefore, I think he would act that way.
Okay, You think this, I think it differently. I do not have anything against it.

I see him continuing to act that way now that he doesn't have Geostigma when he doesn't tell Tifa that he's in the flower field, and when he doesn't tell Tifa why he's taking the day off in Reminiscence.
In Your interpretation. :)

Here’s what people who have heard it say about whether Tifa called Cloud, or whether Cloud called Tifa. The first is from Clorith at ACF:
You quoted from Clerises, who want to think that Tifa called Cloud, sorry, but it's no proof. I'll look reminisence again, and watch for that part, but Cloud's first sentence is very clealy states for me, that he called Tifa, and not Tifa him. You can think otherwise, no problem, but Cloud's first sentence is very avkward, ih Tifa had called him.

Now… if the "Shop Closed" sign was to close BOTH the Seventh Heaven and Cloud’s shop, then why would Yuffie give it to Barret to give to Cloud?
Because Cloud was the one, who was always away due to his delivery service. Why Tifa should close the Seventh heaven bar, if they can make the reunion at that place (the photo was taken in front of 7th Heaven)...? It does not make any sense.

There’s nothing about anyone but Cloud taking the day off during Reminiscence.
Yes, he's taking the day off, thus he won't be away, and they can make the reunion party (and they made the photo).

Do You really think that Yuffie gave the sign to Cloud, that he can close the shop, and can go to Aerith in the flower fields...? According to Your theory, he can meet her every time he's on a delivery run. Why does he need a day off, to do this...?

Why would Tifa be bothered? Because Cloud intends to take the day off without including Tifa in his plans. :lol:
Again, why should Cloud need a day off, if in Your theory, he's lying to Tifa about his deliveries, and he always meet Aerith when he's on a delivery run. You're contradicting Your own theory.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend.
Yes, it is possible. I do not believe in it, but it's possible, I never said elsewhere.

Even Marlene told Barret that Cloud and Tifa were getting along badly.
*cough* depression *cough* geostigma *cough* ;)

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.
Isn't it logical that if Cloud starts living with Tifa, and starts a family with her, then the happy ending involves Tifa too...? Yes it is.
I'm very sure that Aerith has to do nothing with that happy ending, she was not a part of anything there, only came after Cloud's depression.

How do you know that the same lifestyle won’t make him anxious now
Yes, actually I agree with this. :)
That's why I'm only saying that there's a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, and nothing that "OMG, they will make babies".

According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility.
Bolded out DA WORD. :)

however, you have Tifa asking Cloud near the end of CoT whether he loves her. All Cloud gives her is a dubious look.
Oh, I love this scene, nearly every Cleris brings this up. :)
Well, in my interpretation, Cloud gives her a dubious look, because he did not know, if he heard that question right (if he heard it at all, don't forget, that he was sleepng then). After that, Tifa quickly covers up with the "Do You love/like Marlene?" sentence.

I saw the change in personality start soon after he moved into the Seventh Heaven.
That was the "anxious" part from the interview, and no incompatibility. :)

People have different ways of showing their grief.
Yes, but if he was that depressed the first time, why was he optimistic, cheerful, why was he smiling after that scene, etc...? No, he was not that depressed at the first time at all.

You can also tell that he misses Aerith if her loss is still his main problem.
Miss her? Yes, he misses her. Miss her as an eternal love and as an undying romantic bond? No, I don't think so.
He blamed himself for her death, he thought that he can't help anyone precious to him (Tifa and the children), he went back to the "I'm not good for anything" state. It's not a romantic thing.

Please give me quotes to substantiate what you're saying.
Cloud: I want forgiveness... Yes, forgiveness.
Did he said that he wants to be with her? Or he want to meet her? Or anything romantic? No.
He does not behave like someone, whose long lost only love appeared in front of him.

Then why is Aerith’s form still showing at the end of the movie in Calling? Why does Aerith turn as Cloud approaches the flower field on Fenrir?
That represents how she's continuing to look over him (and everyone else).

It may also be that SE simply wanted to leave it up to speculation whether or not Cloud had communicated with Aerith during the two years prior to AC because we didn’t get a story from Cloud’s perspective.
I would extend this to tha fact, that SE wanted to make a lot of things up to speculation, including the love triangle. :)

Moving to Aerith’s Church
Moving their, to be at the place, where he maybe get his forgiveness from her.

visiting Aerith’s flower field
Which is not stated anywhere, that he actually does.

taking pictures of Aerith’s flower field
Which are not just fléower fields, but different places, quite like random photos.

and picking flowers from Aerith’s flower field
Which is just a memento that reminds him of her. De not forget, that she's dear for him, it's undeniable, but it has to do nothing with moving forward.

You see? It's just a matter of interpretation.
You should try to respect other opinions, instead of trying to contradict interpretations with interpretations.

(Pssst... yo, Pivi! We say “romantic” in English, not “romantical”.)
Oh, okay. :)

Cloud cares for Tifa. As a sibling-like relationship.
Not in my interpretation. :)

Face it, if he truly loved her, like you claim he did in the beginning of CoT
Hah, misunderstanding here. I said that Cloud started to feel something romantically for Tifa. It's just like he stepped on the road to fell in love with her properly, and become a couple with her.
I never said that they're a couple in CoT, or they are in madly deep love.

he would not have let the death of Aerith get in the way of giving her a happier life.
No, Aerith's death was just a point, what Cloud blame himself for. He thought that he's no good for anyone, and he can't protect anyone, nor Aerith, nor Tifa and the children, nor anyone. How can he give Tifa a happier life in a state like this.
This is why they relationship did not bloomed.

But he will NOT move on romantically with her.
In Your interpretation.

May I intrude on this discussion a little bit more?
Sure, come along, just stay a little open-minded... :)

Can I mention the Cosmo Candle scene, the laughing scene where Cloud is amused, and even smiles at Aerith's humor, and--dare I say-- the default date with her?
I did not denied love between them, in FF7... You think that I'm a biased Cloti, who want to put Cloud and Tifa together...? Well, I'm not. :)

In AC, she appeared to him quite a few times in a couple of days... or was it one? I forget.
No-no, I referred to the future of AC, not in AC. :)

By why did he move to the Church? Can you answer that for me?
Because he needed forgiveness from her, before he dies (geostigma...), and he moved to the place where he can be close to her, and maybe where he can get his forgiveness.

And anyway, if Aerith managed to move on from Cloud, then Cloud should be able to move on from Tifa...
Move on from Tifa...? They're not even a couple yet. Where he should move on from her...? :)

He is single.
Yes, exactly! That's my point. :)
Why do You think that I desperately want to put Cloud and Tifa together...? Because I see possibility for them in the future...? I would be very sad, if seeing a Cloti possibility would make me a biased Cloti...

Wow, that's all for now. Sorry if I left some questions unanswered, or if I forgot to quote something, but I'm over a long concert, where I had to sing some pieces from Händel's Messiah, and I'm very-very tired. So good night for now. :)

Anastar

11-05-2005, 07:09 PM

Yes, that's exactly why I don't like to quote anything from the compilation, because I know most of the Cleris povs, thus I know how they interpret things differently.
Since we see things differently, then I won't know where you get your interpretation unless you explain where you get your interpretation. If you don't quote the passage that made you think that Cloud felt romantically toward Tifa, and I didn't see any such thing happening, then I'll be clueless how you got your interpretation. That's why I ask for quotes and substantiation.

Please. You know that i do not meant every single word, just that I interpreted romance out of the first part of CoT. :)
So far, I've only heard two things that you interpreted as romantic: the blushing scene and the hand on the shoulder scene. If those are the only two scenes where you see any hint of romance, then I don't know how in the world you can claim that the "entire first part of CoT" is romantic.

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.
I think this is our main bone of contention. I don't see the change in Cloud's behavior as sudden, and I think you're underestimating the amount of grief and sorrow Cloud felt at Aerith's grave. If Cloud has to drink alcohol after delivering a bouquet there, and if Tifa herself knows how difficult that would be for Cloud, then he's feeling a lot more grief and sorrow than you acknowledge. You have to remember, too, that Cloud himself says that main problem is the "inability to retrieve lost lives". If that's his main problem, then the death of Aerith is his main problem, and therefore he was going through a lot at her grave.

I'll have to go through CoT and designate how I see a gradual change, rather than a sudden change, happening in Cloud's behavior.

When I refer to the compilation, I refer to FF7, LO, CoT and MotP. :)
I don't consider LO legitimate, since there's so many errors in it. It contradicts the script of FF7 in too many places. I doubt Cloti's would even want to consider LO legitimate, considering that it makes Tifa into a huge liar. :lol:

You quoted from Clerises, who want to think that Tifa called Cloud, sorry, but it's no proof. I'll look reminisence again, and watch for that part, but Cloud's first sentence is very clealy states for me, that he called Tifa, and not Tifa him. You can think otherwise, no problem, but Cloud's first sentence is very avkward, ih Tifa had called him.
Or unless there's another translation for that line. For example, what if Tifa had said, "Cloud?" when he picked up, and he answered, "Yeah, it's me"? Vilaeth acknowledged that the sounds were the same as in the other calls, and he isn't partial to the Cleris interpretation. I didn't ask him about the translation, though, coz I didn't foresee your interpretation.

Clorith's explanation is very interesting, though. Clorith believes that we're seeing the Tifa-Cloud call from a third person's point of view, as if Aerith is standing there waiting for Cloud to finish the call. That's why Clorith believes we're unable to hear Tifa's voice, like you could hear the other people talking in the other calls. That's quite possible. :)

Because Cloud was the one, who was always away due to his delivery service. Why Tifa should close the Seventh heaven bar, if they can make the reunion at that place (the photo was taken in front of 7th Heaven)...? It does not make any sense.
It also wouldn’t make sense for Barret to ask Cloud to give presents to Marlene and Denzel for him if Barret were going to be there for the “Reunion” the next day, so that photo wasn’t taken after Reminiscence. It also looks to me as if they're standing in front of the Church, not the 7th Heaven.

Do You really think that Yuffie gave the sign to Cloud, that he can close the shop, and can go to Aerith in the flower fields...? According to Your theory, he can meet her every time he's on a delivery run. Why does he need a day off, to do this...?
Maybe it doesn’t seem logical to you because it’s something that someone who’s still in love would want to do. ;) Maybe he doesn’t want to be interrupted by deliveries for once? Notice that Cloud won’t do that for Tifa in CoT, but he does it for Aerith after meeting her. :D

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend.Yes, it is possible. I do not believe in it, but it's possible, I never said elsewhere.
Hmmm… then I guess we have to assume that Cloud and Zack had a love relationship, since Zack rescued Cloud from Hojo’s lab. Barret must be in love with Tifa, too, since he rescued her from Scarlet in Junon.

*cough* depression *cough* geostigma *cough*
This is part of our main contention regarding the sudden vs. gradual change in Cloud’s behavior. More about this later. :)

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.
Isn't it logical that if Cloud starts living with Tifa, and starts a family with her, then the happy ending involves Tifa too...? Yes it is.
Let’s look at that quote again:

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?

Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.
So it was the *interviewer*, not Nojima, who said that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending. I could care less what the interviewer thinks. :lol:

It’s Nojima, however, who says that the life Cloud had at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa made him anxious. From what Nojima says, Cloud was feeling anxious before contracting Geostigma, which would fit my interpretation better than yours! :P

Yes, actually I agree with this.
That's why I'm only saying that there's a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, and nothing that "OMG, they will make babies".
I would agree that there’s a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, just as there’s a possibility for single Cloud and a possibility that Cloud will love Aerith eternally. There’s also a possibility that Tifa will get together with Barret, Reno, or Vincent instead of Cloud. I’ve always thought Barret had a thing for Tifa, anyway. After all, Barret told Tifa after the Lifestream event that she was “some kinda lady”. *woot* :lol:

According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibilityBolded out DA WORD.
Yes, we have two different interpretations of the story. Where’s the news in that? I thought we were discussing our different interpretations? Please remember that yours is nothing but an interpretation, too. I plan to show you in great detail how I got the interpretation of incompatibility, too.

Oh, I love this scene, nearly every Cleris brings this up.
Well, in my interpretation, Cloud gives her a dubious look, because he did not know, if he heard that question right (if he heard it at all, don't forget, that he was sleepng then). After that, Tifa quickly covers up with the "Do You love/like Marlene?" sentence.
If he wasn’t sure of the question, then why didn’t he ask her to repeat it? If I’m not sure of what someone said, I ask them to repeat it. Most people do.

His dubious look is way too similar to his later response to Tifa when he was fully awake for me to think he didn’t hear her question. Look at the entire passage:

Tifa "Do you love me?"
Cloud woke up, a dubious look on his face.
Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."
Tifa asked if “we” are enough for Cloud, which includes herself. That’s basically asking him the same thing, and he didn’t answer. According to your interpretation, Cloud would have to be in love with Tifa at this point for you to see the entire first part of CoT as romantic, yet he has no answer for Tifa when she asks if she is enough. Someone who’s in love wouldn’t respond like that.

Instead, he refers to his “problem”, and we later find out what that problem is: the inability to retrieve lost lives, which refers to getting Aerith back.

That was the "anxious" part from the interview, and no incompatibility.
If a lifestyle makes you feel anxious, then you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with a way of living, that makes you incompatible with a person who wants to live that way.

Yes, but if he was that depressed the first time, why was he optimistic, cheerful, why was he smiling after that scene, etc...? No, he was not that depressed at the first time at all.
You assume that he wasn’t depressed because he didn’t break down in tears like Tifa did. However, men show grief differently than women:

Men also tend to deal with the loss of a loved one differently than women. This also may be related to the belief that men must be strong in the face of adversity, and that showing emotion is a sign of weakness. Men tend to assume full responsibility for their bereavement and suppress their grief. …

Because they feel unable to openly express their feelings, many men deal with grief by taking on more activities—such as working overtime or going on business trips—to occupy their time. They may become involved in risk-taking behavior, such as dangerous sports or compulsive sexual activity. Some addictive behaviors, such as alcohol or other drug abuse, can escalate as the result of suppressed grief.
Source: http://www.clevelandclinic.org/health/health-info/docs/2200/2286.asp?index=9307 (Depression in Men – Bereavement)

You are expecting Cloud to show his grief in a manner similar to Tifa. In reality, Cloud may actually be feeling grief - but not openly expressing it – simply because that’s what men tend to do. Men tend to suppress their grief, so Cloud wouldn’t be showing outward signs of it. However, we do see his grief expressed when Cloud resorts to drinking alcohol after taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave. When Tifa learned he was taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave, Tifa acknowledged that it would be difficult for him to do, which shows that even Tifa knows that Cloud is in grief. Cloud also says that his main problem is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”, which means that his main problem is the inability to bring Aerith back. If that’s his main problem, then he is grieving for her even though you don’t see the outward signs of it that you expect to see.

Miss her? Yes, he misses her. Miss her as an eternal love and as an undying romantic bond? No, I don't think so.
He blamed himself for her death, he thought that he can't help anyone precious to him (Tifa and the children), he went back to the "I'm not good for anything" state. It's not a romantic thing.
You are looking at symptoms of depression and thinking that we view that as romantic love. What you refer to are actually symptoms of his depression. Symptoms of depression from http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/symptoms.htm:

* You seldom enjoy the things that you used to enjoy-you may be off sex or food or may 'comfort eat' to excess.
* You don't want to see people or are scared to be left alone. Social activity may feel hard or impossible.
* You feel like a failure and/or feel guilty a lot of the time.
* You feel a burden to others.
* You can see no future. There is a loss of hope. You feel all you've ever done is make mistakes and that's all that you ever will do.
* You feel you have no confidence.
* You spend a lot of time thinking about what has gone wrong, what will go wrong or what is wrong about yourself as a person. You may also feel guilty sometimes about being critical of others (or even thinking critically about them).
* You feel that life is unfair.
What you cite is actually evidence of Cloud’s depression due to grief over Aerith's death and the inability to bring her back, so it’s actually an expression of Cloud’s grief. I don’t believe it was ever said that depression was a symptom of Geostigma.

What Cleris people see as evidence of his undying love for Aerith is going out to flower field to meet her, gathering flowers from the place where she is, taking multiple photographs of the flower field, and going to live in Aerith’s Church when he thought he was dying. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud’s unhappiness while living at the Seventh Heaven. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud telling Tifa that she isn’t enough to solve his problem, which is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”. What we see as undying love for Aerith is the way Cloud looks up into the brightness of the Holy rain brought by Aerith. What we see as undying love for Aerith is wanting to take the day off to spend a whole day in the flower field with Aerith.

Another question that has to be asked is why Cloud would fall into depression if he’s in love with Tifa and living a happy life with her? If this is what makes Cloud happy, and this is the life he’s always wanted, then why would he become depressed?

Cloud: I want forgiveness... Yes, forgiveness.
Did he said that he wants to be with her? Or he want to meet her? Or anything romantic? No.
He does not behave like someone, whose long lost only love appeared in front of him.
I actually see this and matters brought up in the remainder of your post from a different perspective than I did yesterday after giving it some thought, so I’m going to go off on a completely different track. :lol:

From Maiden over the Planet:

She didn't use coercion but instead, she approached Dyne gently. Extending out her hands, she touched the layer of blood that covered him.
Aerith "The blood bound to you is something that your feeling of guilt is making. The lives you took away returned to the Lifestream long ago. You can't forget about what you've done but, there is no reason why you can't start over. I guarantee it."
Dyne "...."
From the point where Aerith touched, the blood dried up into tissue, detached from Dyne and wore away. Then, Dyne's left arm started to fade away.
…
For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared.
Dyne: "After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks..."
Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.
She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne's faint, surprised voice could be heard.
Dyne "Eleanor?"
Dyne wasn’t able to be with Eleanor until his “sin” started to fade away from Aerith’s touch. From what Cloud said to Vincent, we know that Cloud feels that his “sin” is letting Aerith die. Cloud tried to turn around to see Aerith in the flower field when she met him on the way to the Forgotten City, but she disappeared, so he wasn't able to see her. During the flower field scene, Aerith told Cloud that she didn’t blame him. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm, like she touched Dyne’s arm in the story. Then Cloud went back to Midgar and told Tifa that he “felt lighter”. Shortly after that, the Bahamut hand reach scene occurred, and Cloud saw Aerith. From Cloud’s reaction to seeing Aerith's face in the hand reach scene, it makes sense that it was the first time that Cloud could visually see her. Apparently, Cloud had to start letting go of his guilt before he was able to see Aerith in the same way that Dyne had to start letting of his guilt before he could join with Eleanor. This would explain why Cloud wasn’t able to be with Aerith before AC.

Another thing we learn from MotP is this:

Slanting her head to the side, she thought more about it.

"Will I be able to talk to Cloud somewhere? So that I can tell him I'm fine... It's kind of odd saying I'm fine but maybe I can be "clearer" about myself here."

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"
Now, if Aerith had “gotten over” Cloud – as you have suggested – and gave her blessing to CloudxTifa, why didn’t Aerith disappear?

This passage also suggests that Cloud hadn’t “gotten over” Aerith, since we see Aerith waiting for Cloud during the bonus ending while Calling plays. Those who had feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a “whole”, which suggests that Cloud’s love for Aerith is still very strong.

You see? It's just a matter of interpretation.
You should try to respect other opinions, instead of trying to contradict interpretats with interpretations.
You say this after contradicting my interpretation with your interpretation? Hmmm…

I also want to write up a full reply about Case of Tifa, which will show how I see Cloud's change of behavior as gradual rather than sudden.

*~*EnglishRose*~*

11-05-2005, 07:26 PM

Move on from Tifa...? They're not even a couple yet. Where he should move on from her...?

But Cloti's say that he had a chilhood crush on Tifa, and he still and/or maybe loves her... what I'm saying is, he can move on, too. ^_^

Which are not just fléower fields, but different places, quite like random photos.

That picture of Cloud and Tifa, and marlene and denzel could be then ticked off as random. The important thing is, why does he have them on his desk in the first place?

First, the ribbon is red (not pink!),

first of all... who cares what colour it is, it's still a memory of Aerith.

and second, everyone wears the ribbon, including Tifa, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Red XIII, Cait Sith and Yuffie.

your point? They still want to remember her.

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

they day Cloud starts to show some emotion, is the day Aerith is revived through some magical way. My point... he doesn't show his feelings. Only few times do you see how he truly feels, when he laughs with Aerith, when Aerith dies, and when he reaches for Aerith's hand in the Life-stream. Once with Tifa, does he show it. Nope, not the highwind scene. when Cloud was knocked into the Lifestream with Tifa, and even then Aerith was present.

Pivi

11-05-2005, 10:11 PM

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.

Or unless there's another translation for that line.
Yes, in that case I would fully accept it as Tifa calling Cloud.

So it was the *interviewer*, not Nojima, who said that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending. I could care less what the interviewer thinks. :lol:
Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote,

It’s Nojima, however, who says that the life Cloud had at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa made him anxious. From what Nojima says, Cloud was feeling anxious before contracting Geostigma, which would fit my interpretation better than yours! :P
The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

There’s also a possibility that Tifa will get together with Barret, Reno, or Vincent instead of Cloud.
Yes, of course. It has a much less possibility, bit it has. :P

I plan to show you in great detail how I got the interpretation of incompatibility, too.
Go ahead, but I don't think it will change my interpretation...

If he wasn’t sure of the question, then why didn’t he ask her to repeat it? If I’m not sure of what someone said, I ask them to repeat it. Most people do.
There are facial expressions, that equals to a question, You know. A dubious look, for example... ;)

According to your interpretation, Cloud would have to be in love with Tifa at this point
No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

Instead, he refers to his “problem”, and we later find out what that problem is: the inability to retrieve lost lives, which refers to getting Aerith back.
If he could get lost lives back, it would make that he's not guilty, thus he does not need forgiveness. It's not a romantic "bring her back" for me. He does not behave loke a forever in love person to me throughout CoT and AC.

If a lifestyle makes you feel anxious, then you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with a way of living, that makes you incompatible with a person who wants to live that way.
But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.

You assume that he wasn’t depressed because he didn’t break down in tears like Tifa did.
No. I assume he wasn't depressed, because after that, he was optimistic, he was smiled, etc. It's not like a depressed person. After geostigma, he was depressed, but before that, not.

What Cleris people see as evidence of his undying love for Aerith is going out to flower field to meet her, gathering flowers from the place where she is, taking multiple photographs of the flower field, and going to live in Aerith’s Church when he thought he was dying. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud’s unhappiness while living at the Seventh Heaven. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud telling Tifa that she isn’t enough to solve his problem, which is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”. What we see as undying love for Aerith is the way Cloud looks up into the brightness of the Holy rain brought by Aerith. What we see as undying love for Aerith is wanting to take the day off to spend a whole day in the flower field with Aerith.
Should I say, that in my interpretation, I can debunk all of these points...? I do not think it's necessary, until You not try to tell me that Your interpretation is the absolute truthness. For me, it's very far from being the truthness, but I have to say I respect this theory also.

Another question that has to be asked is why Cloud would fall into depression if he’s in love with Tifa and living a happy life with her?
Read back. :)

Now, if Aerith had “gotten over” Cloud – as you have suggested – and gave her blessing to CloudxTifa, why didn’t Aerith disappear?

This passage also suggests that Cloud hadn’t “gotten over” Aerith, since we see Aerith waiting for Cloud during the bonus ending while Calling plays. Those who had feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a “whole”, which suggests that Cloud’s love for Aerith is still very strong.
Well, the problem with this interpretation is that Zack also appeared for Cloud at the end of AC, end there's clearly nothing romantical between Cloud and Zack. So, is this means that the love between Cloud and Aerith is not necessarily romantical...? Yes, very much. :)

I also want to write up a full reply about Case of Tifa, which will show how I see Cloud's change of behavior as gradual rather than sudden.
Okay, go ahead, I'll read it surely, but I won't comment anything here for a while, I really got tired of this discussion. :)
I don't care that much for the LT in AC, to run in circles this much...

That picture of Cloud and Tifa, and marlene and denzel could be then ticked off as random. The important thing is, why does he have them on his desk in the first place?
Well, the family picture and the reunion picture placed there to look on it. The photos are scattered throughout there, as random photos would have been on a workdesk. If those photos would have the same meaning as the other pictures (to look on them), then they would placed in a photo album, or in a photo case, like the family and reunion photo.
The flower in front of the reunion picture represents Aerith, the photos not.

And it's a very interesting thing that the flower placed in front of the group picture, and not in front of the family picture. Does this mean that Cloud does not consist Aerith in the family, but instead in the group...? It's very possible. ;)

So, that's all from me, these discussions were enough for my desire of the "fun discussing". :)

Night Strife

11-05-2005, 10:22 PM

Hey, someone should start a website or forums for TifaxCloud. That would be awesome! ^_^

silentchild

11-06-2005, 04:18 AM

Hey, someone should start a website or forums for TifaxCloud. That would be awesome! ^_^

There are plenty of Cloti shrines on the web, just do a google search. The largest one is probably cloti.aikou.net

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.

Yes, in that case I would fully accept it as Tifa calling Cloud.

Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote,

The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

Oh I'm a bit lost, I haven't been in here for quite a bit, but I'll give this a tackle.

Does it make him more compatible with Tifa? No. Tifa doesn't like his delivery service. Does he stop it after AC? No. Does this mean he still feels anxious about peaceful life with Tifa? Probably yes or no. It just means he belongs on his bike, roaming the planet aerith loved so much.

Therefore, your interpretation is not any more valid than ours. It won't change our interpretation either.

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

How sad that we didn't see Cloud give seem to imply anything romantical towards her in AC.... :rolleyes2

But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.

And how do you know for sure? Even in CoT when Cloud was at home with the children, it irked Tifa's nerves. She was even jealous of Denzel, and she even dissaproved of the way Cloud interacted with the children.

And it's a very interesting thing that the flower placed in front of the group picture, and not in front of the family picture. Does this mean that Cloud does not consist Aerith in the family, but instead in the group...? It's very possible. ;)

Actually, since the old family photo was somewhat pushed to the side, and the group photo took precedence, I merely saw it that the group photo was Cloud's real 'family' now. It wasn't just a miserable photo of a sad looking Cloud, Tifa and the kids. Now it was everyone, everyone is happy in the photo, these are the people he fought with two years ago, these people are now his 'family', and he's realized that. Aerith included of course, being the flowers in front of the photo as naturally, she cannot be actually 'in' the photo. It's merely a very symbolic way to represent her by placing the flower in front of the photo.

I don't see what this has to do with Cloud x Tifa.

I'm getting tired too. I have a feeling this discussion will end soon, but meh. It's been enjoyable.

Pivi

11-06-2005, 07:30 AM

Therefore, your interpretation is not any more valid than ours. It won't change our interpretation either.
But I never said anything like this... I never said that my interpretation is more valid then Yours, that's why I respect Your interpretation also. There're a lot of ridicoluos interpretations, what I do not respect though, but it's not this one.

How sad that we didn't see Cloud give seem to imply anything romantical towards her in AC.... :rolleyes2
Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith. :)

And how do you know for sure? Even in CoT when Cloud was at home with the children, it irked Tifa's nerves. She was even jealous of Denzel, and she even dissaproved of the way Cloud interacted with the children.
Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

Actually, since the old family photo was somewhat pushed to the side
Yes, I think Cloud wanted to cover his old self with the new photo out of the old picture, but he let Tifa and the children be visible.

I don't see what this has to do with Cloud x Tifa.
Nothing. :)
I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

I have a feeling this discussion will end soon, but meh. It's been enjoyable.
Yes, I have to say I really enjoyed this discussion, but I have quite enough for a while. :)

Anastar

11-06-2005, 03:54 PM

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.
That's all that's available to us. Even Nomura said he didn't know whether Tifa and Cloud were romantically involved, so there's nothing proven in the Compilations. All we have to work with is our interpretations. I just think the Compilation supports a Cleris interpretation much better than a Cloti interpretation.

Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote
SE likes to keep interpretations open, so Nojima didn't explicitly negate the "happy ending" quote NOR did he endorse it as correct. However, I think that Nojima's comment about the peaceful life making Cloud anxious negates the "happy ending" quote, although not explicitly.

The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P
Starting his delivery business because he can't stand staying in one place very long is just one example of his incompatibility with Tifa. He had to find something else to make him happy because his life at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa and the others didn't make him happy.

Yes, of course. It has a much less possibility, bit it has. :P
I just mean that you can say that *anything* is "possible". It's also "possible" that Cloud decides to become a transvestite, or that he grows a beard, or that he becomes a vegetarian, or that he starts a Motorcycle Racing Station at the Gold Saucer and ends up with Dio. Anything is "possible". :p

There are facial expressions, that equals to a question, You know. A dubious look, for example... ;)
Since English isn't your first language, I guess you thought it could mean that he was uncertain about what she said. A dubious look actually means that you have doubts about the subject of conversation.

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.
But there's nothing showing that they're madly in love in AC, either.

If he could get lost lives back, it would make that he's not guilty, thus he does not need forgiveness. It's not a romantic "bring her back" for me. He does not behave loke a forever in love person to me throughout CoT and AC.
Perhaps you have certain expectations what a "forever in love" person should act like, whereas the beginning of CoT was simply showing that Cloud didn't know what he wanted at the end of FFVII. I think he felt obligated to help Tifa get her life in order after all that she'd done for him, so he basically just went with the flow. He's still figuring things out for himself, but even Tifa considers him nothing but a friend in CoT. She says so right here:

Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky. "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!"

**

Friends were a necessity to me so that I wouldn't get supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were companions that had the same wounds or were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

You could call that family maybe. We just had to put the family's strength together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything being with friends that she could call family.
Barret obviously considers himself part of the "family", too. They were all friends helping each other out, so the "family" didn't just consist of Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. Barret was part of the family, too. CoT also stated that Marlene slept with Tifa, and that Cloud had his own room, so it's not like Cloud and Tifa were acting as a married couple with children. Cloti's tend to read way too much into the "family" references, given that Barret is part of the family and Tifa only sees it as friends helping one another out.

But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.
But the anxiousness did not go away with the delivery service, which means the incompatibility did not go away. If anything, the anxiousness increased.

Cloud was keeping a lot from Tifa. From the pictures over his desk, it's quite obvious that he was travelling to different places, perhaps in search of Aerith. We know he went to the Church, for example. Do you know how often he went there? If you found out that Cloud had been visiting the Church every day, would you tend to think that Cloud was acting like "forever in love" person after all? How do you know he wasn't going to the Church every day?

You're making a lot of assumptions about what Cloud was doing. ;)

No. I assume he wasn't depressed, because after that, he was optimistic, he was smiled, etc. It's not like a depressed person. After geostigma, he was depressed, but before that, not.
How do you know he got depressed after Geostigma and not before? Remember the link I quoted for you in my last post where it says that men tend to suppress their grief and depression so that even doctors have a hard time recognizing it? If he's suppressing it, then you wouldn't see signs of it.

Should I say, that in my interpretation, I can debunk all of these points...? I do not think it's necessary, until You not try to tell me that Your interpretation is the absolute truthness. For me, it's very far from being the truthness, but I have to say I respect this theory also.
Where did I say my interpretation is the absolute truthfulness? Please find the quote where I said that. I believe in my interpretation, and I think a Cleris interpretation is far better substantiated than a Cloti interpretation, yes. But where did I say it's the absolute truth?

Well, the problem with this interpretation is that Zack also appeared for Cloud at the end of AC, end there's clearly nothing romantical between Cloud and Zack. So, is this means that the love between Cloud and Aerith is not necessarily romantical...? Yes, very much. :)
I meant that Aerith appeared in the bonus ending after AC where Zack did not appear, which means that Aerith still has her form after AC.

Okay, go ahead, I'll read it surely, but I won't comment anything here for a while, I really got tired of this discussion. :)
I don't care that much for the LT in AC, to run in circles this much...
Threads like this will do nothing but put one interpretation against another interpretation. If you don't enjoy doing that, then why start a thread on it? :p

Night Strife

11-06-2005, 04:56 PM

Heh, there's a site, but no forums. :cry:

silentchild

11-07-2005, 03:58 AM

But I never said anything like this... I never said that my interpretation is more valid then Yours, that's why I respect Your interpretation also. There're a lot of ridicoluos interpretations, what I do not respect though, but it's not this one.

Ok.

Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith. :)

That's how you see it. Most of us Clerises found many scenes between Cloud x Aerith in AC to be romantic, as she seemed to be the main motivation for him getting over his guilt, as well as symbolizing that she was always by his side, even if he is in trouble.

Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

But how do you know this? How do you know Cloud wouldn't still much rather prefers to continue running his delivery service instead of staying at home being a good little boy? As far as we could see after AC, he is still running his delivery service. There is nothing to show us that he changes his lifestyle.

I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

Barret also happens to be part of that 'small family', fyi. I don't see why Clotis keep pretending like Barret doesn't exist. It's small platonic family with three adults sleeping in different rooms.
It wouldn't make sense for someone dead to be part of this family that started rebuilding their lives together after FF7.

Eternal Strife

11-07-2005, 05:33 AM

Pivi:

Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith.

Nothing romantic, but there was certainly much affection (deep warmth) portrayed. As far as affection goes, I saw much more between Cloud and Aerith. He appeared closer to her than anyone else, including Tifa.

Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

Actually, I think silentchild was trying to point out that Cloud even paid more attention to the children than he did to Tifa. It's why she was a bit envious. It's a very good point because it indicates that there isn't any romantic feelings being reciprocated by Cloud. If there was, Cloud would be paying attention to her, and thus there would be no need for jealousy.

I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

Well, first off...if you're going to separate Cloud's family into two categories, you can't forget poor old Barret. I think he fits in with Cloud's "small family" as well, no? According to CoT, he, Cloud, and Tifa came together to form this "family", didn't they? So the guy wasn't present when the picture was taken, but you certainly can't exclude someone just because they're not in a picture. As Anastar has also pointed out, Tifa considers their family as friends coming together, not a romance thing where she and Cloud tied the knot.

Secondly, the small portrait was behind the big portrait and off to the side. It wasn't exactly the focus of the camera either, as if indicating that Cloud's real completed family actually includes everyone as shown, and not just him, Tifa, and the children as Clotis previously thought.

His family includes all those who fought with him to save the Planet, the Avalanche companions you could say. However, Aerith wasn't even in the pictures, so I'm not sure how you could have lumped her in with the "bigger family" rather than the loveY doveY "little one" off to the side consisting of just Cloud, Tifa, and the two children (Barret as well). Personally, I think she has her own little category that does not include anyone else as I believe she has a special place in Cloud's heart. :cool:

Moogle Molester

11-07-2005, 09:02 AM

do you all not relize that this controversey is endless,all the faqs on the matter are either for shadowed assumed or theoryized,not to mention every ones personal opinon in the mix

*~*EnglishRose*~*

11-07-2005, 05:09 PM

do you all not relize that this controversey is endless,all the faqs on the matter are either for shadowed assumed or theoryized,not to mention every ones personal opinon in the mix

that's why this is called a debate, dearie. :tongue:

The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

hell yes. :lol: Do you ever see Cloud anxious in the Flowerfield, or when he finally sees Aerith, or when Cloud and Aerith talk together in the game? Me no think so. :lol:

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

Not madly in love?? yet?? In AC??? sorry for all the questions, but I don't think that Cloud ever really loved Tifa, except maybe when he was a child, and they were only small feelings, just a small crush. Physical attraction. AC has already come and gone, unless I'm right. :) And from reading the plot, there are no implications whatsoever that Cloud had feelings for Tifa, hence the dubious look. :P

Dante Obscuri

11-08-2005, 03:34 AM

Hail ya'll!!!
Cloud and Tifa = "More than friends, less than lovers". Like brother n' sister. Family love (even if Tifa wants more, hehe), deep caring, yet no romance. Ubber truth, yeah.

Well, that's all for now, God (or your own personal deity) bless ya'll, peace.

Pivi

11-08-2005, 11:16 AM

Threads like this will do nothing but put one interpretation against another interpretation. If you don't enjoy doing that, then why start a thread on it? :p
Oh, it's fun discussing this, but I have discussed the matter for way too long now, and I got tired of it.

After I made this thread here, I went to ACF, and discussed my brains out in the LTD there, so don't expect the same discussion from me here also.

This discussion has become very tiring, thus I'm only interested in the different interpretations, without the serious discussions, because I done that in ACF.

So I won't quote anything now. :)

Oh, but I will:

Not madly in love?? yet?? In AC???
I messed up my sentence, I wanted to say they have to wait until "after-AC". :)

And again, dubious means:
doubtful; uncertain; skeptical; suspicious

Do not mix it up with else, the scene, where Cloud wake up for the question, is most certainly uncertainity, because he was asleep.

Dante Obscuri

11-08-2005, 06:59 PM

Interpretations are cool, unluckily only one is correct, and the others are doomed to be busted.

Pivi

11-08-2005, 09:44 PM

Interpretations are cool, unluckily only one is correct, and the others are doomed to be busted.
Well, no. :)
SE stated that they made the movie, so all of the fans will be pleased, and the movie can be interpreted differently. That's why they do not give any concrete proof dor either pairings.

Dante Obscuri

11-09-2005, 11:05 PM

Well, no. :)
SE stated that they made the movie, so all of the fans will be pleased, and the movie can be interpreted differently. That's why they do not give any concrete proof dor either pairings.
Actually, I'm correct. :greenie: Nomura himself said that nothing was left un-answered, everything had an answer (maybe another member in here has read that as well, and can back me up, with a quote on it). All you have to do, is to dig in, therefore you'll have an interpretation, wether it is correct or not, it is an interpretation. That interpretation, can be shared with your friends or people (like you're already doing now) and see how it can be upgraded, corrected (we're human after all, we can be wrong as well, isn't it? :D ), et cetera.

Besides, they (Square-Enix people) have said that things were left to interpretation, never that things will be as fans want.

Pivi

11-09-2005, 11:58 PM

AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn't something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the *angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess "comparing answers" with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.
So are there any clear answers? No. Is there a "one and only" correct interpretation? Definetly not.

Dante Obscuri

11-10-2005, 12:38 AM

So are there any clear answers? No. Is there a "one and only" correct interpretation? Definetly not.
No dude, that's not the quote I refered to. I think I'll have to find it myself. And you're giving me the point all along, they said "left to interpretation", not left to creativity or to imagination. Things have an answer, if you don't want to accept it, then: What can I do? You can belive whatever you want, you're free to do it.

Well, even so I'll find that quote and post it, ok?

Winter Nights

11-10-2005, 01:15 AM

Pivi

11-10-2005, 06:58 AM

Usually when people say "left to interpretation", they mean that it's left up to each individual to decide for themselves what they believe.

And how can you say that there is an exact answer, when no answer has definate proof?
Exactly, well said.

The movie was made this way, so everyone can interpret it differently, and thus, everyone can enjoy it:

But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer.

Tomoe

11-11-2005, 09:33 AM

Night Strife

11-11-2005, 02:44 PM

Er, can someone sum up this thread? I'm so confused by the many, many posts.

Pivi

11-11-2005, 04:50 PM

Er, can someone sum up this thread? I'm so confused by the many, many posts.
Nothing special. We had a discussion about Cloud's possible future, and his love interest (Aerith, Tifa, both, neither), without a conclusion. :-)

Winter Nights

11-11-2005, 05:01 PM

^ That would also have meant that Nomura/SE themselves have an interpretation...which, well, is what Dante is implying in his post I guess, the "correct" interpretation, or perhaps to term it more appropriately, "official interpretation"

:mog:
Not really. Making it open for interpretation, is a statement that there is no correct answer. Nomura may have his own preference, but he designed the story so that it could work with everyone else's preference.

Nomura could have a thing for Tifa/Yuffie hentai that he drew himself.. That doesn't make them an official couple, just because he's writing a story about their world.

TurkSlayer

11-11-2005, 05:06 PM

Er, can someone sum up this thread? I'm so confused by the many, many posts.

There really is no way to sum up a thread like this. Sorry man.

As for what has been said on the subject of everything be reveiled, it hasn't. I haven't seen the movie myself, but I can tell from all I know that not only was anything answered in AC, Nomura himself isn't entirely sure who Cloud loves.

I want to point out the dubious look. If a woman who I didn't have a relationship with but deeply cared about, perhaps even loved, woke me up from my sleep and asked if I loved her, I would not only be a little skeptical about why she was suddenly asking, I'd be a bit confused too. Which I believe is what happened to Cloud.

Winter Nights

11-11-2005, 05:15 PM

Of course, now SE will prove us wrong by having Cloud and Tifa be a couple in DoC. :p

TurkSlayer

11-11-2005, 05:38 PM

Of course, now SE will prove us wrong by having Cloud and Tifa be a couple in DoC. :p

I'm happy if he ends up with anyone except Aeris. Hell, he can end up with Nanaki for all I care... Well, okay, that could be creepy...

Dante Obscuri

11-12-2005, 02:08 AM

I'm not saying that you can't think of your interpretations as correct. But, interpretations are just that, interpretations, possible answers but not definite answers. I'm not saying that my interpretations are correct either, I try to prove them as correct, yes, but even so, mine are just interpretations, so as yours, wether they are correct or not, we might never know.

I don't have such regard towards Nomura, I even think that this FFVII "sequel" was too much for him, but I do think that he has a little of seriousness, so as Nojima, to write a real plot.

Oh yes, this is the quote I was talking about, it came on the Newtype USA October issue:

To this day, FFVII continues to draw some fire for its ambiguous ending. It's a satisfying conclusion [and beautiful to behold], but it doesn't hold the player's hand through a lengthy denouement the way 16-bit Final Fantasy games do. That shift in presentation, Tetsuya Nomura insists, was entirely intentional-- the goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging." Nomura, of course, had the advantage of the original game's scriptwriter sitting across the office to point out where to look. But, on the bright side, if Square had spelled everything out, there might not have been enough demand for a sequel like Advent Children.

TurkSlayer

11-12-2005, 02:15 AM

Dante Obscuri

11-12-2005, 03:12 AM

I'll see if I can find this quote myself. However, if he says they left no questions unanswered, then it is likely he means there is no official love interest.
Yes, there is, but you have to dig in. He didn't meant, that there weren't any un-answered stuff, in the matter that they anwered everything in a way that it was obvious, it was answered, but the answer is blurry. If you want the real answers, look for them.

"The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging."

TurkSlayer

11-12-2005, 03:25 AM

Did you read this entire thread? Believe me, there's been a lot of digging, and no one can really come to an official conclusion on either.

Dante Obscuri

11-12-2005, 03:46 AM

The fact that no one can prove their interpretations as correct, doesn't mean that an actual answer doesn't exist. There are lots of different interpretations, and that's that. There's a correct interpretation, but to prove it as the "correct one" is other thing. Well... unless Square-Enix gets tired of this, and finally makes the truth obvious.

TurkSlayer

11-12-2005, 03:53 AM

Well, if what you say is true, they would have to make it obvious someday, as it is immpossible to ever get the real answer otherwise. Believe me, I've seen some very indepth analysises, and no one can come up with a true, official answer.

Dante Obscuri

11-12-2005, 04:09 AM

Why should they do it? That's why: "It was left to interpretation". If you have the correct interpretation, you're blessed, if not, at least you don't know you're wrong, and you can be happy too. Is just that simple, my friend.

By the way, I've been reading my posts, and it seems as if I've tried to push my points of view, onto everyone, I have to apologyze for that. I'm just defending my points, sorry.

Winter Nights

11-12-2005, 07:51 AM

"We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging."
First off, you keep throwing this quote around like it applies to Advent Children, when he is clearly speaking of FF7 alone.

Secondly, if something is left up to interpretation, that means there is no correct answer. It all relates to how the individual takes it to mean. That means, everyone's interpretaion is technically correct.. IN THEIR OWN MINDS.

Tomoe

11-12-2005, 09:50 AM

Not really. Making it open for interpretation, is a statement that there is no correct answer. Nomura may have his own preference, but he designed the story so that it could work with everyone else's preference.

Nomura could have a thing for Tifa/Yuffie hentai that he drew himself.. That doesn't make them an official couple, just because he's writing a story about their world.

First part of your post suggested that you disagree i.e. "Not really. Making it open for interpretation, is a statement that there is no correct answer"

Second part of your post perfectly matches what I meant in my post, i.e. "Nomura may have his own preference, but he designed the story so that it could work with everyone else's preference."

So I really do not know how to go about replying.
Well if you consider you or me to be as "official" as can be, I guess it works.. but I am considering Nomura/SE to be the "official", so his interpretation is what I termed "official interpretation". Despite leaving rooms for everyone else to interpret in different ways they would like to, Nomura must have an "official" interpretation of his own. :mog:

ljkkjlcm9

11-12-2005, 08:11 PM

Honestly after just watching it, I say Cloud is not with anyone. The entire movie he can't forgive himself for letting Aeris die, just because he feels the need to protect EVERYONE. *SPOILER* When Sephiroth has the Masamune in his shoulder he asks if there was anything he could have the pleasure of taking away from him, and cloud says "How pitiful. You don't understand anything at all. There is nothing that isn't important to me." Cloud is fighting for everyone and everything, he is not directly connected or in love with one person. He feels obligated to protect everyone and everything. It's like the opposite of the Matrix... in the matrix Neo is completely in love with Trinity, but as the architect said, the previous "ones" had been in love with the human race as a whole and did what they saw best for everyone, while Neo fought for one person. Cloud wasn't fighting for one person, he was fighting for everyone. I don't see love for Tifa, except maybe the shared love they have for the children and their strong friendship which he has with all the characters from the game. I don't see love for Aeris, just terrible regret that he had not done more to save her, and needed her forgiveness, when he realized it wasn't really his fault with her help and stuff, and that she was really still there, he was able to move on and get new strength and fight.

In conclusion, Cloud is in love with everything and wants to protect everyone and everything, he's not in love with either Tifa or Aeris. Even Tifa said "we're not a real family." They're together at the orphanage because they both love the children and want to protect them.

THE JACKEL

Pivi

11-12-2005, 10:08 PM

ljkkjlcm9: Heh, I have to say, that's one of the most logical interpretations I have read lately. I do not agree with every part of it, but it's somehow close to my theory.

Dante Obscuri

11-13-2005, 02:13 AM

First off, you keep throwing this quote around like it applies to Advent Children, when he is clearly speaking of FF7 alone.
Yes, because the one who said it, was no one else than Advent Children's director. FFVII as Advent Children, actually the correct way to say it would be, Advent Children as FFVII, left many points to interpretation, and that's the boggest catch of the story. But as in FFVII, interpretation, doesn't mean unanswered

Secondly, if something is left up to interpretation, that means there is no correct answer. It all relates to how the individual takes it to mean.
No, it means that the answer is not obvious, and that you have to dig in to find it.

That means, everyone's interpretaion is technically correct.. IN THEIR OWN MINDS.
I agree with that, but that doesn't mean that they are "ACTUALLY CORRECT".

ljkkjlcm9: Heh, I have to say, that's one of the most logical interpretations I have read lately. I do not agree with every part of it, but it's somehow close to my theory.
I second that.

TurkSlayer

11-13-2005, 06:25 AM

No, it means that the answer is not obvious, and that you have to dig in to find it.

You don't seem to understand that that isn't truely possible. We can dig all we want and think we have the right answer, but there is absolutely NO WAY to know for sure unless Nomura were to tell us. Both sides have enough evidence to suggest that either could be correct. Its simply not possible to be entirely sure.

Dante Obscuri

11-13-2005, 06:52 PM

Dude, you're giving me the point in this disscussion, and you haven't even noticed it.

You don't seem to understand that that isn't truely possible. We can dig all we want and think we have the right answer, but there is absolutely NO WAY to know for sure unless Nomura were to tell us.
The fact that we don't know that were wrong, means that we're correct. Even if we think we are. Yes, it will take Nomura to tell us, in order to know who's correct, but he's said he won't, but the fact that he won't doesn't mean that one is correct, and the other is wrong. That only means that the ones that are correct, can't prove it, is just that simple. Ignorance doesn't mean to be correct.

Both sides have enough evidence to suggest that either could be correct. Its simply not possible to be entirely sure.
I'm not saying that both sides doesn't have evidence, but that one side has interpreted them better. Yes, it might be impossible to prove who's correct, but that doesn't mean that then, both are correct, just that the ones who are correct won't know, neither the ones who are wrong, therefore they can be happy too.

Pivi

11-13-2005, 09:37 PM

Again, I think I have to quote.

AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn't something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the *angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess "comparing answers" with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.
Bolded out DA sentence. :-)

Dante Obscuri

11-15-2005, 10:39 PM

Oh my...

But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer.
An answer only for THAT PERSON, NOT A GENERAL ANSWER.

Example:
I don't know the gender of any of the members in here, therefore I can only interpret it, like: Pivi is a guy. That's an answer for me, since I don't have anyone to tell me his/her gender, but it can happen that I'm wrong and Pivi's a girl. Even so, it is still an interpretation, therefore an answer for me, wether I'm correct or not, since I don't have anyone to tell me the answer.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would agree that everyone's interpretation is a correct answer, if there were no answer at all, if it wouldn't exist, but:

The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie...
I think that says it all.

Winter Nights

11-15-2005, 11:00 PM

I think that says it all.
That just states that each of the staff members have their own opinion. Which just proves the original point. That "leaving up to interpretation" means that EVERYONE will have their own interpretation and it will be correct to them alone. Even Nomura.

Tomoe

11-16-2005, 02:47 AM

On the contrary, I take that line to mean that SE has their own interpretation, as a whole, because I do not believe that a team can work efficiently if they are each working with an individual mindset, thus aiming for different results. And I do know Japanese people value teamwork alot. Therefore, it is safe to assume that SE staff, on the whole, has an interpretation of their own as they were making the movie.
Which boils down once again to the so-called "official interpretation".
:mog:

Dante Obscuri

11-20-2005, 01:23 AM

That "leaving up to interpretation" means that EVERYONE will have their own interpretation and it will be correct to them alone.
I'm not denying that, but there we are talking about personal/individual terms, not general terms. Yes, each person's interpretation is an answer for that person, but not a general, yet official answer.

On the contrary, I take that line to mean that SE has their own interpretation, as a whole, because I do not believe that a team can work efficiently if they are each working with an individual mindset, thus aiming for different results. And I do know Japanese people value teamwork alot. Therefore, it is safe to assume that SE staff, on the whole, has an interpretation of their own as they were making the movie.
Which boils down once again to the so-called "official interpretation".
:mog:

How does this "boils" the official interpretation? Anyways, remember that the whole team didn't created FFVII or AC per se. FFVII's and AC's writers, are the grandaddies of both stories. Now, will you tell me that the answers held by the stories' writers/creators are just another interpretations?

ljkkjlcm9

11-20-2005, 04:52 AM

wow, all I have to say is people, is it really worth the effort to argue over something so bland such as the relationship between two people in a fantasy story for more than a second, especially when you'll never know the "truth" for sure?

THE JACKEL

Fatihin_Malaysia_Girl

12-18-2005, 11:04 AM

Cloud have two loves,Tifa Lockheart and Aeris Gainburough,
..................................
OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOooOoOoOoOoO
i DON'T knoW:confused: