Final Fantasy tactics relations with ff7?

[One_WinGed_d3mon]

hey i found a theory that could prove a little that a small relationship exists between Final Fantasy VII and its lesser-known brother Final Fantasy Tactics
it has been said in FFT a land called Ivalice was once technologically advanced (Midgar?). There is also an opportunity to gain Cloud as a character by transporting him from the past. Before he actually joins your party, he'll disappear, later reappearing after fighting some enemies. And guess what? Apparently Cloud had been defending a 'flower girl' which bears a striking resemblance to Aeris. Perhaps this is Square's rough-cut conclusion to the mystery of Final Fantasy VII?

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/sa_fft1.gif

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/sa_fft2.gif

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/sa_fft3.gif

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/sa_fft4.gif

http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/sa_fft5.gif

[RedCydranth]

Wait.. WHAT? Cloud is in FFT? OMGZ0RZ~ There is a flower girl? NO WAY!!!! OMG OMG OMG! U maed my dae dood!


Yeah, We know. FFT has Cloud and Aeris. Ramza buys a flower from Aeris in Zarghidas and of course we all know Cloud is in the game. This is NOT news. In fact we all know the many ties FFT has to FF7

Cloud
Aeris
Materia

Wait... i think that is it. Or at least all i care to think about.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

It's generally agreed upon that Cloud made his way to the FFT world while traveling the lifestream, just as while he's in the hospital he mutters "Zenosgias", and a few lines from the song "Small Two of Pieces" from the game Xenogears.

[Cipher]

I think the point that the OP is trying to make is more about the lines of the theory that FFVII is something of a pre-cursor to FFT.

i.e., they take place in the same world.

I could see it being possible.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I think the point that the OP is trying to make is more about the lines of the theory that FFVII is something of a pre-cursor to FFT.

i.e., they take place in the same world.

I could see it being possible.

I realize this and I don't think so. The world is too different. Remember also that the world is larger than just what you visit.

[?????]

They can't be the same world. FFT's world is Ivalice, while FFVII takes place here, at least several thousand years in the future. And even if by some off chance it's not (the brochure-thing that says it's Gaia is wrong, because it contradicts in-game information) the worlds are too different anyway.

[Russ80]

I wonder if FF12 will be related to FFT in the way that the OP is trying to say b/c it's supposedly in Ivalice too.

[Cipher]

Well, that's the thing. Cloud apparently came "from the past," if the game is to be believed. So I think it could very well be possible that Ivalice is Midgar thrown back into the dark ages.

But then again, it's too obscure a point to even think about beyond idle curiosity.

[eestlinc]

Square just did it as a marketing trick and subtle nod to other games they had released aroudn the same time.

[Masamune·1600]

I think the point that the OP is trying to make is more about the lines of the theory that FFVII is something of a pre-cursor to FFT.

i.e., they take place in the same world.

I could see it being possible.


Well, that's the thing. Cloud apparently came "from the past," if the game is to be believed. So I think it could very well be possible that Ivalice is Midgar thrown back into the dark ages.

But then again, it's too obscure a point to even think about beyond idle curiosity.

The idea, to put it flatly, simply doesn't work. First off, the entire matter of the Lifestream (an absolutely critical matter for the Planet) is never once raised in FFT; regardless of time, Gaia could not survive without it. Further, given that all traces, even on a basic archaelogical level (and certainly cultural level) of Midgar and the like have disappeared, we're left with the possibility of an utterly enormous temporal gap. When one also considers how the continents would have shifted, we're left to contemplate a temporal remove so vast that it becomes literally pointless to even try and link the games.

Beyond this, we're left to ponder the question of apparent continuity errors. According to the Materia found as Treasures in FFT, they originated in Salonia (a location, incidentally, from FFIII). This, obviously, it wholly at odds with FFVII and its critical and immutable mythology.

Beyond that, the problem works in reverse. The FFVII mythology does nothing to account for important FFT ideas, such as the Lucavi.

Moreover, one should consider what Cloud himself actually says.


Summoned young man: What happened? Last thing I remember was
getting caught in the current.

Besrodio: Hum, I've read about this before. It could be some
forwarding device.

Mustadio: Forwarding device?

Besrodio: You know, to travel to other worlds, different
space.

Ramza: So, he came from other space?

Besrodio: Maybe. Look at his clothes, Quite unusual.

Summoned young man: My....name's Cloud. yes...Cloud.

Ramza: I'm Ramza. They're my friends....

Reference is repeatedly made to "other worlds" and "other space," but not to "our world" or "different time." This suggests that Cloud was drawn from a location other than the planet of FFT.

Clearly, Cloud's appearance is in the nature of a cameo. Besrodio's machine is merely a deus ex machina, whose only purpose is to allow a popular character entrance to the world of FFT.


They can't be the same world. FFT's world is Ivalice, while FFVII takes place here, at least several thousand years in the future. And even if by some off chance it's not (the brochure-thing that says it's Gaia is wrong, because it contradicts in-game information) the worlds are too different anyway.

The Planet referenced in FFVII is Gaia. Beyond the brochure, which is an official SE document, one might note that the game includes a location called Gaea's Cliffs. Given that phonetics are all that's important in this case (similar situations would include Boko and Boco), it's understandable that this attests to the name of the planet.

More importantly, there's absolutely nothing in FFVII that suggests that the name of the Planet is not Gaia, nor that the game takes place in our future. I imagine you're thinking of the planets that appear during the animation for Safer Sephiroth's Super Nova spell, but really--that's entirely irrelevant. Besides being a matter of gameplay, the fact that the spell can occur multiple times (and destroy the same planets) suggests that it's somewhat illusory. Further, our cannot actually go supernova, as it lacks the necessary mass.

Ultimately, Earth and Gaia are incompatible. We don't have a Lifestream, and we don't have materia.


I wonder if FF12 will be related to FFT in the way that the OP is trying to say b/c it's supposedly in Ivalice too.

The following is from a reply I made in the FFXII forum concerning the nature of a connection, if one exists, between FFT and FXII.


Not necessarily. In FFT, Ivalice was a essentially a continent, whereas it appears to be the entirety of the planet in FFXII. Further, FFT was rather homogenous as far as sentient species went; there wasn't really anything beyond the human race. FFXII, like FFTA, incorporates a plentitude of other species, such as the Viera. This doesn't mean, of course, that FFTA and FFXII are connected; given the nature of FFTA, actually, such a scenario is literally impossible.

Ultimately, at this point, it's difficult to determine what, if anything, connects FFT and FFXII. I really wouldn't be surprised if SE tried to link FFT and FFXII in some direct way, but (given how little information we really have about FFXII) it's presently impossible to determine this.

In essence, the name Ivalice doesn't necessarily link FFT and FFXII. However, since FFXII has not yet been released, and details regarding it are limited, there's little point in making any sort of definitive statement, either in favor or against the possibility of an actual link.

[?????]

[QUOTE=?????]They can't be the same world. FFT's world is Ivalice, while FFVII takes place here, at least several thousand years in the future. And even if by some off chance it's not (the brochure-thing that says it's Gaia is wrong, because it contradicts in-game information) the worlds are too different anyway.


The Planet referenced in FFVII is Gaia. Beyond the brochure, which is an official SE document, one might note that the game includes a location called Gaea's Cliffs. Given that phonetics are all that's important in this case (similar situations would include Boko and Boco), it's understandable that this attests to the name of the planet.

More importantly, there's absolutely nothing in FFVII that suggests that the name of the Planet is not Gaia, nor that the game takes place in our future. I imagine you're thinking of the planets that appear during the animation for Safer Sephiroth's Super Nova spell, but really--that's entirely irrelevant. Besides being a matter of gameplay, the fact that the spell can occur multiple times (and destroy the same planets) suggests that it's somewhat illusory. Further, our cannot actually go supernova, as it lacks the necessary mass.

Ultimately, Earth and Gaia are incompatible. We don't have a Lifestream, and we don't have materia.

Thoroughly and completely incorrect. The Super Nova spell DOES matter. Even though it's almost certainly an illusion, the names of the planets are irrefutable in-universe proof. The B-49 jet visible in the Bone Village is not necessarily proof, but strong evidence. Also, the Gaea's Cliff thing really doesn't matter. By that logic, this planet's name is Rocky because of the Rocky Mountains. The brochure doesn't matter on that point, because it contradicts in-game information. This line in Sector 7 is etymological proof, as well:

"Oh Jesus!! What the hell's wrong tonight!!
I thought that long blackout was strange.
They say a Mako Reactor was destroyed above.
I was jes sittin' here drinkin', watchin' the news by myself.
'n' all of a sudden I get kicked outta the &*%$ store. What's up with that!?
I wasn't even done with my drink. I didn't even pay my bill..."

Plenty of places in the game use the term God damn, which in and of itself is not enough, as the people of Spira have gods that they worship, but this line specifically references a religion native to this planet. There's nothing in the game that suggests that the planet IS named Gaia, for that matter, and there is strong evidence, as I have outlined above, that proves that it takes place here. Of course, we haven't had Jenova come, or any ancient, itinerant race of aliens decide to colonize someplace way off to the north of here, which is the reason I say it's far into the future. Considering Jenova's power, it's entirely feasible that her coming messed up the tectonic plates.

I'm well aware that the sun doesn't have enough mass to go supernova. That requires a mass of about five times that of Sol, which suggests that the majority of the mass came from the energy ball that Sephiroth called into the solar system. Now, the mass had a diameter about half that of Jupiter, which is almost big enough to be a red dwarf star, but still nowhere close to that of our Sun. Obviously, four solar masses crammed into a diameter a miniscule fraction of the size equals black hole, which is irrefutable proof that it is an illusion, unless it was made of concentrated dark energy or something like that, which is in itself incredibly unlikely. Introducing enough dark matter into the center of the Sun would be enough to cause a real-life version of the illusion that Sephiroth created, but lots of luck getting it in there.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Note that's the English translation. I wouldn't use that as evidence until I see the Japanese, because it's VERY easy for translators to use some sort of phrasing that would make it more easily understandable to an English speaking nation, especially a heavily Christian one.

[?????]

Unless the characters look different in Japan, I'm betting that's what they said, or a close approximation thereof. Besides, it's not as if he was referring to it respectfully. Some parents would slap their kids for saying that.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I know that, but you're missing the point. Just because using the term "God" like that is offensive by American standards doesn't mean it is by Japanese standards. I would not be at all surprised if Cid's dialogue is much like that in Japanese but doesn't in any way, shape or form reference a Christian diety, but still portrays his character as a rather foul-mouthed one.

[?????]

The only thing I'm using it as evidence for is that FFVII takes place on our planet. Etymologically, it can take place nowhere else, unless you wish to postulate that there just so happens to be a planet out there that's orbiting a singular main-sequence yellow star (which is in itself fairly uncommon; many, many systems are binary or even trinary star systems) with eight others that are exactly like our companion worlds in every way and were even given the same names by a population who somehow evolved the exact same language with which to do so, has the same atmosphere and gravity as ours, evolved humans as its dominant life form, whose civilization uses the same mathematical notation as ours, AND who happen to have a well-known religion featuring a person named Jesus.

Or you can use Ockham's razor.

[Masamune·1600]

[QUOTE=?????]They can't be the same world. FFT's world is Ivalice, while FFVII takes place here, at least several thousand years in the future. And even if by some off chance it's not (the brochure-thing that says it's Gaia is wrong, because it contradicts in-game information) the worlds are too different anyway.


The Planet referenced in FFVII is Gaia. Beyond the brochure, which is an official SE document, one might note that the game includes a location called Gaea's Cliffs. Given that phonetics are all that's important in this case (similar situations would include Boko and Boco), it's understandable that this attests to the name of the planet.

More importantly, there's absolutely nothing in FFVII that suggests that the name of the Planet is not Gaia, nor that the game takes place in our future. I imagine you're thinking of the planets that appear during the animation for Safer Sephiroth's Super Nova spell, but really--that's entirely irrelevant. Besides being a matter of gameplay, the fact that the spell can occur multiple times (and destroy the same planets) suggests that it's somewhat illusory. Further, our cannot actually go supernova, as it lacks the necessary mass.

Ultimately, Earth and Gaia are incompatible. We don't have a Lifestream, and we don't have materia.

Thoroughly and completely incorrect. The Super Nova spell DOES matter. Even though it's almost certainly an illusion, the names of the planets are irrefutable in-universe proof. The B-49 jet visible in the Bone Village is not necessarily proof, but strong evidence. Also, the Gaea's Cliff thing really doesn't matter. By that logic, this planet's name is Rocky because of the Rocky Mountains. The brochure doesn't matter on that point, because it contradicts in-game information. This line in Sector 7 is etymological proof, as well:

"Oh Jesus!! What the hell's wrong tonight!!
I thought that long blackout was strange.
They say a Mako Reactor was destroyed above.
I was jes sittin' here drinkin', watchin' the news by myself.
'n' all of a sudden I get kicked outta the &*%$ store. What's up with that!?
I wasn't even done with my drink. I didn't even pay my bill..."

Plenty of places in the game use the term God damn, which in and of itself is not enough, as the people of Spira have gods that they worship, but this line specifically references a religion native to this planet. There's nothing in the game that suggests that the planet IS named Gaia, for that matter, and there is strong evidence, as I have outlined above, that proves that it takes place here. Of course, we haven't had Jenova come, or any ancient, itinerant race of aliens decide to colonize someplace way off to the north of here, which is the reason I say it's far into the future. Considering Jenova's power, it's entirely feasible that her coming messed up the tectonic plates.

I'm well aware that the sun doesn't have enough mass to go supernova. That requires a mass of about five times that of Sol, which suggests that the majority of the mass came from the energy ball that Sephiroth called into the solar system. Now, the mass had a diameter about half that of Jupiter, which is almost big enough to be a red dwarf star, but still nowhere close to that of our Sun. Obviously, four solar masses crammed into a diameter a miniscule fraction of the size equals black hole, which is irrefutable proof that it is an illusion, unless it was made of concentrated dark energy or something like that, which is in itself incredibly unlikely. Introducing enough dark matter into the center of the Sun would be enough to cause a real-life version of the illusion that Sephiroth created, but lots of luck getting it in there.

I'm sorry, but you're completely mistaken. Every piece of "evidence" cited is proof of nothing, while you totally disregard SE's official word on the subject.

First off, citing the "B-49 jet" is pointless. Evidence of current technology abounds in Gaia; hell, the cellphone Cloud uses in Advent Children is a real-world model. That's obviously a marketing strategy, of course, but the point is that certain technological similarities are inevitable. Given the enormous changes in the continents that would have had to occur (more on this in a bit), and the fact that no other remnant, archaelogical, oral, or whatever, exists of a pre-Cetra culture, we're left to contemplate a massive temporal gap (at best). It seems unlikely that a jet would have survived practically intact over thousands (even millions) of years, particularly given that there's no sign of rusting or other deterioration.

On the subject of Super Nova, as regards yellow stars and identically named planetary systems, its merely convention. For the world to take place under conditions we can appreciate, it's likely that a yellow star would be used as the framework for a solar system. You know, like in apparently every Final Fantasy. As to the planets, assuming that they actually exist, one could make the argument that it suggests Gaia is the Earth of an alternate universe. Even that's pushing it somewhat; the planetary nomenclature of Gaia's system is most likely a matter of familiarity. Would you argue that the world of FFVIII is also Earth, and the world of FFVII, just because Orion appears in such a way that FFVIII's world would be forced to exist in the general vicinity of Earth?

If that fails to convince you, why didn't SE simply call Gaia "Earth"? As seen in FFIV, there is series precedence for such a move (not that FFIV is our Earth, of course).

The Mysidian Legend:


One born of a dragon, bearing darkness and light, shall rise to the
heavens over the still land. Bathing the moon in eternal light, he
brings a promise to Mother Earth with bounty and grace.

More imporantly...


FuSoYa: In eons past, a planet between Mars and Jupiter verged on
extinction. The survivors escaped by ship to the blue planet.

Cecil: The blue planet...? Our home?

FuSoYa: Yes, Earth. But because the people of Earth were still
evolving, the survivors created another moon, where they now sleep.

Edge: So these survivors became Lunarians, and they're still sleeping.

FuSoYa: Some were reluctant. One even schemed to destroy life on Earth
and usurp the planet.

Incredibly, everyone's favorite Lunarian, FuSoYa, makes mention of Mars and Jupiter. Would you argue, then, that the world of FFIV is the world of FFVII? And what of this mystery planet between Mars and Jupiter? The Asteroid Belt? Unlikely; a dying planet doesn't necessarily reduce itself into a field of rubble. Further, analysis of moon material (again returning to real-world analysis) suggests that our moon was not some recent creation of Lunarians. Nevertheless, we see the words Mars and Jupiter.

As to the continued matter of gravity, and the like, I assume you've had experience with other fantasy settings. Amazingly, gravity is similar there as well. Obviously, it's convention; differences would merely interrupt the narrative process and overall presentation of the game. It's convenient for certain characteristics to match Earth, so they do. It doesn't even begin to suggest any sort of connection, nor does it detract from the game.

The language of Gaia is indeterminate. In the Japanese version of FFVII, it's Japanese; in the American version, it's English. This is most likely so the target audience can understand the story. The grammar matches ours (excluding "This guy are sick"-type gaffs) because the NTSC-U/C version is meant to be comprehended by its audience.

Even discounting matters of localization, you'll note that nowhere in the entire FFVII script does the name "Jesus" actually appear. "God" and certain variants occur, of course, but they occur in other FF games as well. This includes FFT, which you yourself argue is not the same world as FFVII (and therefore, you would conclude, not Earth). As a matter of fact, God is the first word that appears in the FFT script! The Orbonne Monastery further bears notable similarities to real-world sites. While one could argue that "God" is a generic title for Ajora, or any higher perceived aspect of the Glabados Church, such a phrase appears throughout Final Fantasy.


Squall: GOD!!!!!! Rinoa is gonna die! ...I can't take it. Ellone, please.
I've never felt this way in my life.

In FFVIII, for example, there is no mention whatsoever of any sort of deity. Nevertheless, Squall uses the phrase in a moment of duress, as this is how the phrase is commonly used in the English vernacular.

Moreover, the Cathedral in Chrono Trigger bears a striking resemblance to a Christian building. This doesn't make the world of the Chrono series the same as Earth, though; in fact, we know it's not, as we are afforded the example to explore its actual prehistory.

Having examined your evidence, and noting that there is amazingly little that actually points to Gaia being Earth, let's look at the massive contradictions that exist were this the case.

First off, a point which you completely ignored: Earth does not have a Lifestream, and Earth does not have materia. The very life of Gaia itself is bound up in the Lifestream; the Planet literally cannot exist without it. We also know, as evidenced by the materia fountain at Mt. Nibel, that materia can form naturally. Earth has no Lifestream, and no materia. The Lifestream cannot come later; the Planet is wholly dependent on it. Thus, we immediately arrive at an insoluble divergence between Earth and Gaia.

Furthermore, we return to the matter of the continents. If the impact of JENOVA was responsible for the utter rearrangement of the world, one must question why the Northern Crater is still in the north. Further, given that the impact itself was not sufficient to force the Cetra to leave the Knowlespole, I contend that the JENOVA impact had nowhere near the effect on the global geography that you suggest. Given, then, the time that needs to elapse for continental drift and the disappearance of all human culture, we're left with an enormous gap.

However, humanity apparently resurfaces. Given the negative environmental effects wreaked by humanity on Earth (assuming Earth and Gaia to be the same), it seems unlikely that the Planet would have allowed the race to return. The lack of arachaelogical evidence regarding human culture (ALL vestiges of our civilization are gone) would also come into play.

Finally, we're left with the most obvious fact. The SE brochure which refers to the world of FFVII as Gaia. Really, it contradicts nothing in-game, and certainly nothing explicitly stated.

By the way, although this doesn't actually play into the argument from either of our perspectives, I just thought I'd point out that the comet Sephiroth calls that apparently causes the supernova is nowhere near half the diameter of the planet. Really, as seen here (http://www.ffonline.com/media/index.php?lookup=images:ff7:55.jpg), it's probably closer to a hundredth.

[?????]

I'm sorry, but you're completely mistaken. Every piece of "evidence" cited is proof of nothing, while you totally disregard SE's official word on the subject.

If the officials ignore in-game evidence, they're wrong, plain and simple. They can say whatever they want. Hell, they can say that Cloud's really a pink hippo from outer space and that the worlds of all the Final Fantasies are the dreams of the giant clitoris from the South Park movie. It still won't change the observable evidence.


and the fact that no other remnant, archaelogical, oral, or whatever, exists of a pre-Cetra culture

Even though I gave you the line in the script where they mention Jebus.


On the subject of Super Nova, as regards yellow stars and identically named planetary systems, its merely convention. For the world to take place under conditions we can appreciate, it's likely that a yellow star would be used as the framework for a solar system. You know, like in apparently every Final Fantasy. As to the planets, assuming that they actually exist, one could make the argument that it suggests Gaia is the Earth of an alternate universe. Even that's pushing it somewhat; the planetary nomenclature of Gaia's system is most likely a matter of familiarity. Would you argue that the world of FFVIII is also Earth, and the world of FFVII, just because Orion appears in such a way that FFVIII's world would be forced to exist in the general vicinity of Earth?

First off, no it doesn't. Plenty of people read and appreciate sci-fi stories that take place on worlds that are nowhere close to this one. Chalking a story element up to familiarity is an intellectual cop-out.

As for VIII, there's no etymological basis to support the idea of that planet being Earth. A more likely case is that it's at least on the other side of the galaxy, if not in a completely different one.


If that fails to convince you, why didn't SE simply call Gaia "Earth"? As seen in FFIV, there is series precedence for such a move (not that FFIV is our Earth, of course).

They do, sort of.


What's this...!? The Lifestream is gushing up from below the surface of the
earth! Damn, that's......!? This is bad......!!

The only difference here is that Earth isn't capitalized, but a lot of people don't feel the need to. I post on probably too many forums for my own good; only a few people actually capitalize it. Admittedly, that doesn't count as evidence, but when did you ever hear people in worlds where they actually named the planet something else call it "the earth's surface"? You don't, because it's Spira's surface or Terra's surface or whatever.


One born of a dragon, bearing darkness and light, shall rise to the
heavens over the still land. Bathing the moon in eternal light, he
brings a promise to Mother Earth with bounty and grace.

More importantly...


In eons past, a planet between Mars and Jupiter verged on
extinction. The survivors escaped by ship to the blue planet.

Cecil: The blue planet...? Our home?

FuSoYa: Yes, Earth. But because the people of Earth were still
evolving, the survivors created another moon, where they now sleep.

Edge: So these survivors became Lunarians, and they're still sleeping.

FuSoYa: Some were reluctant. One even schemed to destroy life on Earth
and usurp the planet.


Incredibly, everyone's favorite Lunarian, FuSoYa, makes mention of Mars and Jupiter. Would you argue, then, that the world of FFIV is the world of FFVII? And what of this mystery planet between Mars and Jupiter? The Asteroid Belt? Unlikely; a dying planet doesn't necessarily reduce itself into a field of rubble. Further, analysis of moon material (again returning to real-world analysis) suggests that our moon was not some recent creation of Lunarians. Nevertheless, we see the words Mars and Jupiter.

As to the continued matter of gravity, and the like, I assume you've had experience with other fantasy settings. Amazingly, gravity is similar there as well. Obviously, it's convention; differences would merely interrupt the narrative process and overall presentation of the game. It's convenient for certain characteristics to match Earth, so they do. It doesn't even begin to suggest any sort of connection, nor does it detract from the game.

FuSoYa said they were trying to "usurp the planet" much as Sephiroth, Kuja, and basically every Square villain since Lavos attempted to do. Bugenhagen gives us an image of the Earth literally going to pieces if the Lifestream dies. Considering the average distances between the asteroids in our asteroid belt, that very well could be what happened. It isn't like the asteroid field from The Empire Strikes Back or other popular science fiction; the rocks are so far apart that if your ship is sitting next to one, you can't see any of the others.


The language of Gaia is indeterminate. In the Japanese version of FFVII, it's Japanese; in the American version, it's English. This is most likely so the target audience can understand the story. The grammar matches ours (excluding "This guy are sick"-type gaffs) because the NTSC-U/C version is meant to be comprehended by its audience.

How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us.

What you say?

You are on the way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time.

...so I couldn't think of anything substantive to say. It's basically a given that the target audience has to understand the story. The language they speak in Star Wars, for example, is almost certainly not English. However, the body of thoughts that they have to work with is considerably larger than even the entire FF series taken together, so there's inevitably going to be a couple of screw-ups.


Moreover, the Cathedral in Chrono Trigger bears a striking resemblance to a Christian building. This doesn't make the world of the Chrono series the same as Earth, though; in fact, we know it's not, as we are afforded the example to explore its actual prehistory.

Um, yeah it is, and yeah it does. That one is certainly a derivative of Earth. The geological periods have remained intact; anyone who tells you that the ice age caused by Lavos actually lasted millions of years is either stupid or lying through his teeth. They even retain our BC/AD dating system, as well as many other relics of Christendom, the Roman Empire, the legend of Atlantis, and even the prophecies of Nostradamus, which stated that the end of the world would come about in 1999. There is also a man in Zeal who states that "The Earth (capital E) is alive..." There's even a fix for the geographical discrepancies one encounters on the world map in the more modern eras, that postulates through a number of historical avenues that Guardian cartographers were horrible, horrible morons. Chrono Cross adds to this case, with a line by Kid that tells Harle to "speak propa English" (as if she's one to talk).


First off, a point which you completely ignored: Earth does not have a Lifestream, and Earth does not have materia. The very life of Gaia itself is bound up in the Lifestream; the Planet literally cannot exist without it. We also know, as evidenced by the materia fountain at Mt. Nibel, that materia can form naturally. Earth has no Lifestream, and no materia. The Lifestream cannot come later; the Planet is wholly dependent on it. Thus, we immediately arrive at an insoluble divergence between Earth and Gaia.

Some religions believe that there is a Lifestream in the planet, though they don't address it by that name. Note also that the advent of materia only came about due to the Cetra.


Furthermore, we return to the matter of the continents. If the impact of JENOVA was responsible for the utter rearrangement of the world, one must question why the Northern Crater is still in the north. Further, given that the impact itself was not sufficient to force the Cetra to leave the Knowlespole, I contend that the JENOVA impact had nowhere near the effect on the global geography that you suggest. Given, then, the time that needs to elapse for continental drift and the disappearance of all human culture, we're left with an enormous gap.

However, humanity apparently resurfaces. Given the negative environmental effects wreaked by humanity on Earth (assuming Earth and Gaia to be the same), it seems unlikely that the Planet would have allowed the race to return. The lack of arachaelogical evidence regarding human culture (ALL vestiges of our civilization are gone) would also come into play.

Negative effects? Global warming does not exist. There is no substantive evidence for it. Considering that in Advent Children, Barret is hunting new oil fields, hundreds of thousands of years may have indeed passed. Xenogears takes place 60,000 to 70,000 years in our future, and the continents look completely different. The world of Xenogears has actually been confirmed to be a far-future Earth. If they can do it in Xenogears, they can do it elsewhere. Also, it's apparent that the Cetra were far more powerful than the humans of FFVII. It's been established that they had extreme technological and magical capability, enough to stave off the ill effects of Jenova for a time. Considering what Jenova and Sephiroth planned to do in the game, it's not at all unfeasible that she kicked the tectonic plates in the balls. The sheer size of the incoming rock (assuming a planetary size roughly equivalent to that of Earth, the Meteor was about as big as Texas) would have done just that had it been allowed to strike, and Sephiroth had enough magic power to use the Black Materia in the first place. Mathematically speaking, energy is energy, regardless of what medium is used to generate it. In order to actually make use of the Black Materia, Sephiroth's MP would have to be through the roof, and it is. This would translate into enough kinetic energy to accelerate the rock toward the planet at speeds sufficient to get the vast majority of it through the atmosphere without having it vaporize. Sephiroth can use it, so it's reasonable to assume that Jenova also has enough power to use it, which would mean she'd have enough power to castrate the continents.


By the way, although this doesn't actually play into the argument from either of our perspectives, I just thought I'd point out that the comet Sephiroth calls that apparently causes the supernova is nowhere near half the diameter of the planet. Really, as seen here (http://www.ffonline.com/media/index.php?lookup=images:ff7:55.jpg), it's probably closer to a hundredth.

Actually, that's more like a twentieth. I couldn't remember offhand how big it was, but the smaller it is, the more conclusive the proof is that Super Nova is an illusion.

Jiminy Christmas, that took a long time to type and edit.

[Masamune·1600]

I'm sorry, but you're completely mistaken. Every piece of "evidence" cited is proof of nothing, while you totally disregard SE's official word on the subject.

If the officials ignore in-game evidence, they're wrong, plain and simple. They can say whatever they want. Hell, they can say that Cloud's really a pink hippo from outer space and that the worlds of all the Final Fantasies are the dreams of the giant clitoris from the South Park movie. It still won't change the observable evidence.

It doesn't ignore in-game evidence. I've reiterated this throughout. An argument for Gaia being Earth, however, is unquestionably flawed, which I will again attempt to show.



and the fact that no other remnant, archaelogical, oral, or whatever, exists of a pre-Cetra culture

Even though I gave you the line in the script where they mention Jebus.

Jesus, actually. Yes, you did, and I admit I didn't see that. It doesn't change the fact, however, that it was used in an impious manner, similar to any such remark. One might again recall Squall from FFVIII using "God" similarly, despite no evidence whatsoever of a deity existing in that world. The point, obviously, was to characterize that NPC as being distraught by the events of the game. "Jesus" never occurs in the main story script, and there is no evidence of Christianity other than the rare use of Christ's name. This makes sense, as (even if Gaia and Earth were the same) no vestige of our culture appears.



On the subject of Super Nova, as regards yellow stars and identically named planetary systems, its merely convention. For the world to take place under conditions we can appreciate, it's likely that a yellow star would be used as the framework for a solar system. You know, like in apparently every Final Fantasy. As to the planets, assuming that they actually exist, one could make the argument that it suggests Gaia is the Earth of an alternate universe. Even that's pushing it somewhat; the planetary nomenclature of Gaia's system is most likely a matter of familiarity. Would you argue that the world of FFVIII is also Earth, and the world of FFVII, just because Orion appears in such a way that FFVIII's world would be forced to exist in the general vicinity of Earth?

First off, no it doesn't. Plenty of people read and appreciate sci-fi stories that take place on worlds that are nowhere close to this one. Chalking a story element up to familiarity is an intellectual cop-out.

You completely missed the point of the remark. While there are a vast number of fantasy/science fiction settings completely removed from the conditions of Earth, there are also a vast number that incorporate most or all significant aspects of our planet (similar gravity, similar physical elements, similar physics, and so on). Despite meeting these outward conditions, however, they are explicitly stated to be something other than Earth. The point is that, when creating a fictional world, one can duplicate certain aspects of our planet without the created world actually being our planet. This is the case here, as it is with all FF games. I have yet to see an FF world with reduced gravity, to use your prominent original example.


As for VIII, there's no etymological basis to support the idea of that planet being Earth. A more likely case is that it's at least on the other side of the galaxy, if not in a completely different one.

The point here, clearly, was to show you that SE (then Square) does not hesitate to incorporate aspects of our view of the universe into their games. Obviously, the appearance of the constellation was not meant to demonstrate that the world of FFVIII is Earth. So it is with FFVII.



If that fails to convince you, why didn't SE simply call Gaia "Earth"? As seen in FFIV, there is series precedence for such a move (not that FFIV is our Earth, of course).

They do, sort of.


What's this...!? The Lifestream is gushing up from below the surface of the
earth! Damn, that's......!? This is bad......!!

The only difference here is that Earth isn't capitalized, but a lot of people don't feel the need to. I post on probably too many forums for my own good; only a few people actually capitalize it. Admittedly, that doesn't count as evidence, but when did you ever hear people in worlds where they actually named the planet something else call it "the earth's surface"? You don't, because it's Spira's surface or Terra's surface or whatever.

Gaia certainly wasn't the official name at the time of FFVII's release; throughout the game, the Planet is referred to as "the Planet." This allows for the name to eventually be added, as a specific name had not been added in 1997.

As to "Earth" and "earth," I intentionally capitalize the planet name to avoid the ambiguity inherent in using earth. As seen by the numerous definitions at Dictionary.com, earth (without capitalization) is hardly unique to the name of our planet.


1.
-1. The land surface of the world.
-2. The softer, friable part of land; soil, especially productive soil.
2. often Earth The third planet from the sun, having a sidereal period of revolution about the sun of 365.26 days at a mean distance of approximately 149 million kilometers (92.96 million miles), an axial rotation period of 23 hours 56.07 minutes, an average radius of 6,378 kilometers (3,963 miles), and a mass of approximately 5.974 × 1024 kilograms (1.317 × 1025 pounds).
3. The realm of mortal existence; the temporal world.
4. The human inhabitants of the world: The earth received the news with joy.
5.
-1. Worldly affairs and pursuits.
-2. Everyday life; reality: was brought back to earth from his daydreams of wealth and fame.
6. The substance of the human body; clay.
7. The lair of a burrowing animal.
8. Chiefly British. The ground of an electrical circuit.
9. Chemistry. Any of several metallic oxides, such as alumina or zirconia, that are difficult to reduce and were formerly regarded as elements.

The initial definition, in fact, refers to earth as the "surface [of the] land." Obviously, this is the context in which Cid uses the word. After all, how would he know what we call our planet when all traces of culture have been removed, and no evidence remains?



One born of a dragon, bearing darkness and light, shall rise to the
heavens over the still land. Bathing the moon in eternal light, he
brings a promise to Mother Earth with bounty and grace.

More importantly...


In eons past, a planet between Mars and Jupiter verged on
extinction. The survivors escaped by ship to the blue planet.

Cecil: The blue planet...? Our home?

FuSoYa: Yes, Earth. But because the people of Earth were still
evolving, the survivors created another moon, where they now sleep.

Edge: So these survivors became Lunarians, and they're still sleeping.

FuSoYa: Some were reluctant. One even schemed to destroy life on Earth
and usurp the planet.


Incredibly, everyone's favorite Lunarian, FuSoYa, makes mention of Mars and Jupiter. Would you argue, then, that the world of FFIV is the world of FFVII? And what of this mystery planet between Mars and Jupiter? The Asteroid Belt? Unlikely; a dying planet doesn't necessarily reduce itself into a field of rubble. Further, analysis of moon material (again returning to real-world analysis) suggests that our moon was not some recent creation of Lunarians. Nevertheless, we see the words Mars and Jupiter.

As to the continued matter of gravity, and the like, I assume you've had experience with other fantasy settings. Amazingly, gravity is similar there as well. Obviously, it's convention; differences would merely interrupt the narrative process and overall presentation of the game. It's convenient for certain characteristics to match Earth, so they do. It doesn't even begin to suggest any sort of connection, nor does it detract from the game.

FuSoYa said they were trying to "usurp the planet" much as Sephiroth, Kuja, and basically every Square villain since Lavos attempted to do. Bugenhagen gives us an image of the Earth literally going to pieces if the Lifestream dies. Considering the average distances between the asteroids in our asteroid belt, that very well could be what happened. It isn't like the asteroid field from The Empire Strikes Back or other popular science fiction; the rocks are so far apart that if your ship is sitting next to one, you can't see any of the others.

Are you arguing that FFIV is the same world as FFVII, which is in itself Earth? If that is the case, then you have to account for the differences between FFIV and Earth, as well as FFIV and FFVII. Why, for example, do Cecil, Rosa, and company never use materia? Where is the Lifestream? If not, acknowledge the point that the world of FFIV not only uses our name, but also retains "Mars" and "Jupiter" in direct dialogue, without FFIV's Earth actually being our Earth. This, of course, would eliminate the only piece of "evidence" you have.



The language of Gaia is indeterminate. In the Japanese version of FFVII, it's Japanese; in the American version, it's English. This is most likely so the target audience can understand the story. The grammar matches ours (excluding "This guy are sick"-type gaffs) because the NTSC-U/C version is meant to be comprehended by its audience.

How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us.

What you say?

You are on the way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time.

...so I couldn't think of anything substantive to say. It's basically a given that the target audience has to understand the story. The language they speak in Star Wars, for example, is almost certainly not English. However, the body of thoughts that they have to work with is considerably larger than even the entire FF series taken together, so there's inevitably going to be a couple of screw-ups.

Again, you either miss or attempt to gloss over (in this case, I believe it's the latter) the clear point. You earlier stated as evidence that we use the "same language." Here, I believe you concede the point; the language of the game is what it is to inform the player.



Moreover, the Cathedral in Chrono Trigger bears a striking resemblance to a Christian building. This doesn't make the world of the Chrono series the same as Earth, though; in fact, we know it's not, as we are afforded the example to explore its actual prehistory.

Um, yeah it is, and yeah it does. That one is certainly a derivative of Earth. The geological periods have remained intact; anyone who tells you that the ice age caused by Lavos actually lasted millions of years is either stupid or lying through his teeth. They even retain our BC/AD dating system, as well as many other relics of Christendom, the Roman Empire, the legend of Atlantis, and even the prophecies of Nostradamus, which stated that the end of the world would come about in 1999. There is also a man in Zeal who states that "The Earth (capital E) is alive..." There's even a fix for the geographical discrepancies one encounters on the world map in the more modern eras, that postulates through a number of historical avenues that Guardian cartographers were horrible, horrible morons. Chrono Cross adds to this case, with a line by Kid that tells Harle to "speak propa English" (as if she's one to talk).

So now the world of the Chrono series is our Earth as well? Well, given that you repeatedly make reference to CT's use of BC/AD terminology, the prophecies of Nostradamus, and the like, let me show you something.

The world of Chrono Trigger, 1000 AD: http://www.rpgplanet.com/chrono/images/ct/map-1000.gif

Earth, ~1000 AD (well, it's a 2005 map, but the point is to show continental configuration as would have been the case circa 1000 AD): http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/physical_world.html

Quite obviously, the world of Chrono Trigger is not Earth. Is Chrono Trigger's planet an alternate Earth? Sure. But that's irrelevant; you're not arguing for Gaia being an alternate Earth (which I could accept); you're arguing for the two being the same planet.



First off, a point which you completely ignored: Earth does not have a Lifestream, and Earth does not have materia. The very life of Gaia itself is bound up in the Lifestream; the Planet literally cannot exist without it. We also know, as evidenced by the materia fountain at Mt. Nibel, that materia can form naturally. Earth has no Lifestream, and no materia. The Lifestream cannot come later; the Planet is wholly dependent on it. Thus, we immediately arrive at an insoluble divergence between Earth and Gaia.

Some religions believe that there is a Lifestream in the planet, though they don't address it by that name. Note also that the advent of materia only came about due to the Cetra.

The beliefs of some religions doesn't change the fact that there is no physical evidence of a Lifestream, as there is in the world of FFVII. Further, you completely misunderstand the concept of materia. Materia is merely crystalized Mako energy. It did not come about with the Cetra; it naturally (though obviously in limited quantity) grows on Gaia. The Mt. Nibel mako fountain is evidence of this, as are the unreachable-by-normal-means materia that exist in the Materia Caves. The reality of this natural process is even stated when one obtains Mime, Quadra Magic, HP<->MP, and Knights of the Round materia.

As a result, Earth diverges from Gaia. There's no helping it. Your idea contradicts the entire mythology of Final Fantasy VII.



Furthermore, we return to the matter of the continents. If the impact of JENOVA was responsible for the utter rearrangement of the world, one must question why the Northern Crater is still in the north. Further, given that the impact itself was not sufficient to force the Cetra to leave the Knowlespole, I contend that the JENOVA impact had nowhere near the effect on the global geography that you suggest. Given, then, the time that needs to elapse for continental drift and the disappearance of all human culture, we're left with an enormous gap.

However, humanity apparently resurfaces. Given the negative environmental effects wreaked by humanity on Earth (assuming Earth and Gaia to be the same), it seems unlikely that the Planet would have allowed the race to return. The lack of arachaelogical evidence regarding human culture (ALL vestiges of our civilization are gone) would also come into play.

Negative effects? Global warming does not exist. There is no substantive evidence for it. Considering that in Advent Children, Barret is hunting new oil fields, hundreds of thousands of years may have indeed passed. Xenogears takes place 60,000 to 70,000 years in our future, and the continents look completely different. The world of Xenogears has actually been confirmed to be a far-future Earth. If they can do it in Xenogears, they can do it elsewhere. Also, it's apparent that the Cetra were far more powerful than the humans of FFVII. It's been established that they had extreme technological and magical capability, enough to stave off the ill effects of Jenova for a time. Considering what Jenova and Sephiroth planned to do in the game, it's not at all unfeasible that she kicked the tectonic plates in the balls. The sheer size of the incoming rock (assuming a planetary size roughly equivalent to that of Earth, the Meteor was about as big as Texas) would have done just that had it been allowed to strike, and Sephiroth had enough magic power to use the Black Materia in the first place. Mathematically speaking, energy is energy, regardless of what medium is used to generate it. In order to actually make use of the Black Materia, Sephiroth's MP would have to be through the roof, and it is. This would translate into enough kinetic energy to accelerate the rock toward the planet at speeds sufficient to get the vast majority of it through the atmosphere without having it vaporize. Sephiroth can use it, so it's reasonable to assume that Jenova also has enough power to use it, which would mean she'd have enough power to castrate the continents.

It's never been established that the Cetra have any sort of special technological prowess. If such were the case, the world would be much more advanced, as humans are directly derivative of the Cetra.

Further, you again miss the point I constructed. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume that JENOVA's impact could have rearranged the world. If that were the case, however, why were the Cetra not displaced? Why was the northern continent not significantly affected beyond the impact crater?

I'm not sure, although this doesn't really affect either case, why you bring up the matter of Sephiroth's MP. Extreme Spirit Energy is needed to use the Black Materia, as is explicitly stated. One can have 999 MP on the first Disc and not be able to use the Black Materia.

Also, note that Meteor doesn't work by normal physics. It would never have hung in the sky for as long as it did if this were the case. Meteor is Magic, and obviously doesn't follow normal physics.

As to Xenogears, yes; the game does take place far in the future. This is explicitly stated, confirmed, and so on. The game is made to reflect this fact. There is nothing that actually suggests that Gaia and Earth are the same. At the same time, we run into an impasse as regards Earth and the Lifestream.

And, as you so desperately want to ignore, SE officially stated that Gaia is, well, Gaia. As it does nothing to even begin to affect the continuity of FFVII, the official word is true. Sorry.

In the end, Gaia can certainly be understood to be something of an alternate Earth, in an alternate universe. But our Earth? Indisputably and unmistakably, the answer is no.

[?????]

Jesus, actually. Yes, you did, and I admit I didn't see that. It doesn't change the fact, however, that it was used in an impious manner, similar to any such remark.

Of course it was. This doesn't change the etymological implications, which at the least imply that VII is an alternate version of this planet. When I refer to "here" I simply refer to the physical location of our planet. I probably didn't make that clear earlier on, so I ufcked up there. From a physical perspective, many of these games take place on our planet. From a temporal perspective, they obviously don't.


One might again recall Squall from FFVIII using "God" similarly, despite no evidence whatsoever of a deity existing in that world. The point, obviously, was to characterize that NPC as being distraught by the events of the game. "Jesus" never occurs in the main story script, and there is no evidence of Christianity other than the rare use of Christ's name. This makes sense, as (even if Gaia and Earth were the same) no vestige of our culture appears.

Doesn't matter what the "point" is. He used it, and that's what counts.


The point here, clearly, was to show you that SE (then Square) does not hesitate to incorporate aspects of our view of the universe into their games. Obviously, the appearance of the constellation was not meant to demonstrate that the world of FFVIII is Earth. So it is with FFVII.

Are you arguing that FFIV is the same world as FFVII, which is in itself Earth? If that is the case, then you have to account for the differences between FFIV and Earth, as well as FFIV and FFVII. Why, for example, do Cecil, Rosa, and company never use materia? Where is the Lifestream? If not, acknowledge the point that the world of FFIV not only uses our name, but also retains "Mars" and "Jupiter" in direct dialogue, without FFIV's Earth actually being our Earth. This, of course, would eliminate the only piece of "evidence" you have.

Doesn't matter what it was "meant" to do. The fact is that it's there. So VIII's world is either another alternate version of this planet, or somewhere really close to us, as is IV. IV is definitely an alternate universe. Same thing with VII.


Again, you either miss or attempt to gloss over (in this case, I believe it's the latter) the clear point. You earlier stated as evidence that we use the "same language." Here, I believe you concede the point; the language of the game is what it is to inform the player.

The Jebus quote and the names of the planets are the evidence for my "same language" remark, which is more evidence for it being physically here. It's something of a truism that a story has to be told in a language which we can understand. That doesn't change anything.


So now the world of the Chrono series is our Earth as well? Well, given that you repeatedly make reference to CT's use of BC/AD terminology, the prophecies of Nostradamus, and the like, let me show you something.

The world of Chrono Trigger, 1000 AD: http://www.rpgplanet.com/chrono/images/ct/map-1000.gif

Earth, ~1000 AD (well, it's a 2005 map, but the point is to show continental configuration as would have been the case circa 1000 AD): http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/physical_world.html

Quite obviously, the world of Chrono Trigger is not Earth. Is Chrono Trigger's planet an alternate Earth? Sure. But that's irrelevant; you're not arguing for Gaia being an alternate Earth (which I could accept); you're arguing for the two being the same planet.

Wait, I was? Then I messed some /xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif/xxx.gif up. They're the same physical planet, but seeing as Lavos didn't own us, they're obviously different timelines/dimensions/whatever.




First off, a point which you completely ignored: Earth does not have a Lifestream, and Earth does not have materia. The very life of Gaia itself is bound up in the Lifestream; the Planet literally cannot exist without it. We also know, as evidenced by the materia fountain at Mt. Nibel, that materia can form naturally. Earth has no Lifestream, and no materia. The Lifestream cannot come later; the Planet is wholly dependent on it. Thus, we immediately arrive at an insoluble divergence between Earth and Gaia.

Some religions believe that there is a Lifestream in the planet, though they don't address it by that name. Note also that the advent of materia only came about due to the Cetra.

The beliefs of some religions doesn't change the fact that there is no physical evidence of a Lifestream, as there is in the world of FFVII. Further, you completely misunderstand the concept of materia. Materia is merely crystalized Mako energy. It did not come about with the Cetra; it naturally (though obviously in limited quantity) grows on Gaia. The Mt. Nibel mako fountain is evidence of this, as are the unreachable-by-normal-means materia that exist in the Materia Caves. The reality of this natural process is even stated when one obtains Mime, Quadra Magic, HP<->MP, and Knights of the Round materia.

As a result, Earth diverges from Gaia. There's no helping it. Your idea contradicts the entire mythology of Final Fantasy VII.

How long do you think it took them to find physical evidence of a Lifestream, and to harness it? Long friggin' time.


It's never been established that the Cetra have any sort of special technological prowess. If such were the case, the world would be much more advanced, as humans are directly derivative of the Cetra.

Further, you again miss the point I constructed. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume that JENOVA's impact could have rearranged the world. If that were the case, however, why were the Cetra not displaced? Why was the northern continent not significantly affected beyond the impact crater?

I'm not sure, although this doesn't really affect either case, why you bring up the matter of Sephiroth's MP. Extreme Spirit Energy is needed to use the Black Materia, as is explicitly stated. One can have 999 MP on the first Disc and not be able to use the Black Materia.

Also, note that Meteor doesn't work by normal physics. It would never have hung in the sky for as long as it did if this were the case. Meteor is Magic, and obviously doesn't follow normal physics.

As to Xenogears, yes; the game does take place far in the future. This is explicitly stated, confirmed, and so on. The game is made to reflect this fact. There is nothing that actually suggests that Gaia and Earth are the same. At the same time, we run into an impasse as regards Earth and the Lifestream.

And, as you so desperately want to ignore, SE officially stated that Gaia is, well, Gaia. As it does nothing to even begin to affect the continuity of FFVII, the official word is true. Sorry.

NOTHING doesn't work by normal physics. Contradictions cannot exist, anywhere, ever. This applies no matter what planet you're on. What the denizens of Final Fantasy refer to as "magic" is contained within their physics, which for the most part are the same as ours. ALL laws of physics apply unless there can be no reconciliation. It's rather easy to reconcile Meteor hanging in the sky.

As the Lifestream has been proven to exist in FFVII, one would naturally assume that all "magic" is derived from it. This would include MP.

I perhaps worded my statement on the Cetra incorrectly. They were perhaps not particularly skilled in the ways of technology, but they certainly had immense magical powers.

Hell, I don't have the energy to argue anymore. To restate it again, the argument I intended to put forth was that they take place on this planet, but in different timelines. FFVII can't be in some far-off solar system, and neither can many of the others. But, observing the contradictions between the games, they can't all take place on the same timeline. So I guess now we're in agreement, which is good because I have to go take some enchiladas out of the oven.

[Masamune·1600]

Hell, I don't have the energy to argue anymore. To restate it again, the argument I intended to put forth was that they take place on this planet, but in different timelines. FFVII can't be in some far-off solar system, and neither can many of the others. But, observing the contradictions between the games, they can't all take place on the same timeline. So I guess now we're in agreement, which is good because I have to go take some enchiladas out of the oven.

Perhaps. I'd like to know what you mean by different timeline. If it refers to a different dimension/alternate universe, then we agree. If you're arguing that Gaia is the future of our Earth (the way The Spirits Within takes place in 2065), only far in the future, then we haven't yet reconciled our differences.

[?????]

Yeah, I mean alternate universe. I still think there exists a remote possibility that FFVII specifically is in our future, but that's what it is: a remote possibility.

[Russ80]

:rolleyes2 my god you need to stop contradicting yourself ?????? !!!!!!

how the heck do you think that our physics are in FF7? WTF, there's MAGIC!!!!!!!! Magic is completely against our laws of physics. And because those are laws of physics, they CAN'T HAPPEN on our earth, EVER! Matter is never created or destroyed, so what are ice and water spells? More importantly, fire takes three elements which are obviously NOT all present in fire spells. Magic itself proves that FF7 is AT LEAST an alternate reality. The fact of the matter is that it (FF7's world) is completely made up.

And please state where exactly the game contradicts the manual. You repeatedly state that it does, but you NEVER give specific evidence.

And remember that this game is TRANSLATED!!! T.R.A.N.S.L.A.T.E.D. Have you ever read chinese poetry translated? It is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately translate it. Besides that, American games are HEAVILY localized, in fact square has a specific employee whos job it is to research and develop the localizations. There was a big hoopla over him a while back b/c of some material cuts in a game, but I can't remember his name. Square works to put our phrases into games, and two common phrases in our culture are Jesus and God (and God damn). So they put them in where people are simply cursing in japanese.

So quit just saying that simply b/c the american word has jesus in it it means he was talking about Jesus and they believe and jesus and everything that you keep saying! Masamune∙1600 had some very good arguments against your Jesus argument, but you just ignored him and said "'He says Jesus, and that's all that matters' *plugs ears* 'na na na na na can't hear you na na na na'"

[BudSoda02]

Once again you people have succeeded in ruining another thread... As for the ties between FFVII and Tactics they're very obvious. Cloud, Aeris, the Mention of Aeris' Mom (Adopted), the materia and the materia blade. (clouds ultimate sword.) Oh well you people.... :rolleyes2
Thanks- BudSoda02 BudSoda02@yahoo.com

[?????]

:rolleyes2 my god you need to stop contradicting yourself ?????? !!!!!!

how the heck do you think that our physics are in FF7? WTF, there's MAGIC!!!!!!!! Magic is completely against our laws of physics. And because those are laws of physics, they CAN'T HAPPEN on our earth, EVER! Matter is never created or destroyed, so what are ice and water spells?

Spells are the translation of Spirit Energy into another form. Energy can never be created or destroyed.

I have contradicted myself not once. You need to actually read the thread and understand my arguments, which are based in quantitative and logical analysis. ALL laws of physics apply in fictional worlds unless there is no way to reconcile them. Contradictions cannot exist, here or in any alternate reality. Otherwise, the universe itself does not work.

[Russ80]

so what is "spirit energy"? It sure as heck isn't present in physics. I'm not talking about simple kinematics, but particle and quantum physics.

[?????]

Hell if we know. SoD-wise, it's an element of physics that they've discovered but we haven't. In The Spirits Within, no distinction is made between spirit energy and nuclear energy. This cannot be true, at least not completely, due to the fashion in which the Lifestream is shown. As volcanoes exist in VII, one can only assume that spiritual consciousnesses are kept in some sort of alternate plane from the physical, but occasionally cross over into each other due to exceptional events. If this was not true, it would impede the functioning of known aspects of geology. However, to imply universal consciousness as they do to some degree, to imply that everything is connected in some metaphysical sense, requires a common physical bond. Obviously, everything is made of the same subatomic particles; on an even more fundamental level, everything is made of luxons (particles with a net velocity equal to c).

[Starcrest]

I do beleive you find an air ship that looks like the highwind too, no?





and as for Matter...wow dont' get me started. It cannot be created nore destroyed, yet the big bang theory states that the universe came from one atom. Yeah ok, an atom having all the stuff to create stars, dust, asteroid, planets and a sun? where's it floating? Yeah it could be super dense, but you'd have to change it's density, which you cannot do. and wow you guys argued good points...but I'm really not sure who I agree with more...

[?????]

The Big Bang theory doesn't state that everything came from one atom; rather, it postulates that all the matter in the universe was at one time compressed into a single point of effectively infinite density. In this kind of a situation, every law of physics that governs the universe at large breaks down, which is needless to say really weird.

[ScottNUMBERS]

Big bang theory? I didn't read all the posts in this thread but it looks like its gone horribly wrong.

Big bang theroy + FFVII And Tactics theroy = No relevance whatsoever

[RedCydranth]

blah blah blah... Close this thread Someone... its gone horribly off topic and Mr. Question Marks has no clue when to give up.

If Square says its Gaia, its Gaia. If Square says cloud is a pink hippo, he's a pink hippo. Square's word is absolute in this matter. The planet could 100% resemble ours and if Square called it Frothy Milk Land, then that is the name of that FANTASY planet, not Earth. Done.