Plot Question

[zo-sama]

Question people! In the first disc when Cloud and everyone are locked up in Shinra Headquarters before the Sephiroth rampage, why is Cloud's cell unlocked?

[Brian The Pink Shark]

he probably unlocked it himself, sephiroth can control him so he probably got him to do that :choc:

[Christmas]

I think Sephiroth is the one that unlock it when he pay a visit at the HQ. He freed Cloud so that he can make use of him later on.

[Dinnova]

i think it was just a malfuncion, resulted from jenovas attack.

[GunbladeMaster]

glitch

[Skyblade]

glitch

No, it is not a glitch, considering that you would be unable to progress further in the game if the door wasn't unlocked.


I think Sephiroth is the one that unlock it when he pay a visit at the HQ. He freed Cloud so that he can make use of him later on.

I agree.

[Anniexo]

i think it was just a malfuncion, resulted from jenovas attack.

but she didn't attacked sephiroth did

[Brian The Pink Shark]

actually it wasnt Seph, it was Jenova, controlling a seph clone, or sumthin :choc:

[Anniexo]

actually it wasnt Seph, it was Jenova, controlling a seph clone, or sumthin :choc:


she can't controll anyone only seph can

[zo-sama]

actually it wasnt Seph, it was Jenova, controlling a seph clone, or sumthin

Yeh, there's that whole controversy about whether it is Sephiroth's will that creates the "sephiroth" that kills everybody or if Sephiroth is truly dead and it is Jenova who is using his image to kill people. I dunt really know which one is true or not, but if push comes to shove, I'd have to say it's all Sephy.

[Brian The Pink Shark]

she can't controll anyone only seph can

Jenova controls seph, she could control the clones through him :choc:

[Anniexo]

Jenova controls seph, she could control the clones through him :choc:

no the real seph can cus you know that cloud is one she says on dics two he says that he was summoned by the real seph so it's him whos doing all the controling

[zo-sama]

Jenova controls seph, she could control the clones through him

If this was the case, why wouldn't Jenova use another form instead of her own? Why use Sephiroth?

[Jiro]

seph in north crater is real. others are just clones. one on boat is jenova controlling clone (exact clone not hojos crap) one in shinra hq is jenova controlling a clone to open door then taking on clone form. she actualling takes on the form of seph to make cloud think its really seph. cause jenovas just leading him to the real seph (forget why) (all from other people at other forums)

Oh and why use seph? cause that is a form cloud "knows" and wants to destroy. "settle the score" as said on midgar unfinished highway.
all to lead him to reunion.

[Brian The Pink Shark]

Jenova needs him for the reunion, thats why she controls him :choc:

[eestlinc]

your team is fighting against ShinRa, so Jenova/Sephiroth probably figured you would come in handy and unlocked the cell.

[Big D]

Jenova's goal was the Reunion, and Sephiroth's goal was to manipulate the clones by projecting his will and commanding them at great distance. These two goals worked in unison. As a 'clone' - and one with a particularly severe loss of self-identity - Cloud was useful to both of these objectives.

Jenova's headless body escaped from the Shinra building, but Sephiroth's projected will was consciously controlling matters.

[Skyblade]

Jenova's headless body escaped from the Shinra building, but Sephiroth's projected will was consciously controlling matters.

Um, I thought Sephiroth removed Jenova from the Shinra building... Jenova didn't escape, it was removed.

[TheAbominatrix]

Sephiroth couldnt have removed her because he was still stuck in the Northern Crater. He never leaves that area in any point of the game (save for, of course, the Nibelhiem flashback).

[Christmas]

Regarding whether Jenova is controlling Sephiroth or the other way round, Squall of SeeD had made an analysis on the issue in his website.

Unfortunately, the site is closed.

But I remember the conclusion is that both of them had the same goal and is cooperating with each other. (I couldn't remember properly but it is something like this....)

EDIT: I remember reading somewhere that the Sephiroth you faced through out the game is one of his clone that took his form while being control by the real Sephiroth in the Northern crater.

[krissy]

^i always thought that edit above was true

also when the guy 24 posts up said 'glitch' maybe he meant a glitch in the shinra security system, what, with certain door being ripped open on the other side of the building and what not
electrical wiring is never that great in these post-apocalyptic buildings
also it makes it that much funnier to think how much serendipity helped out our heroes on their journey

[TheAbominatrix]

That would make sense, but it wouldnt explain the pieces of JENOVA the false Sephiroth is leaving behind, and the fact that when you encounter Sephiroth and battle him, you wind up battling JENOVA. So it seems, from this evidence, that JENOVA has merely assumed Sephiroth's forms.

I dont see how one of the 'Clones' would be able to, frankly.

[Sephitachi7]

One thing I would like to clear up, Sephiroth did NOT come into Shin-ra headquarters. Sephiroth did NOT take Jenova's body. And Sephiroth did NOT open Cloud's door. It was Jenova. If you pay close attention, after you come out from the cell someone (I'm think it was Barret) says that it looks like it was busted from the inside. Maybe it could have been Sephiroth's will through Jenova that caused Jenova to kill the guard and open Cloud's door, but it was not physically Sephiroth himself.

[Vyk]

I remember in a previous thread someone pointed out that it was Jenova taking on the form of Seph that killed Aeris. Because, like said, he never leaves the crater, because throughout the course of the game, and apparently from a point 5 years prior to the game, he's been frozen in the northern crater. Close to the end of the game, you go up there and free him yourself. Its not him physically doing any of it. And the clones, as stated in yet another thread/argument, are merely referred to in that way because of similarities in uh genetics I suppose, body content. Mako treatment and Jenova cells and whatnot. They weren't cloned from Seph DNA like in some science fiction movie. So any resemblance to him would have to be Jenova taking his form. Because the "clones" running around look like who they are, they dont look like Seph any more than Cloud does.

[Christmas]

Cloud: No... not Sephiroth!

???: ......After a long sleep... ...the time...... ...time has...... come...

Barret: Look, Cloud!

Cloud: Sephiroth! You're alive!

Sephiroth: ......Who are you?

Cloud: You don't remember me!? I'm Cloud!

Sephiroth: Cloud...

Cloud: Sephiroth! What are you thinking!? What are you doing!?

Sephiroth: ...the time...... is now...

Sephiroth left them with a nasty surprise. Cloud's group fights Jenova-BIRTH.

From here, we can see that Sephiroth seems like he doesn't even know Cloud which might said he is actually JENOVA instead.


Tifa: I've seen this somewhere... before.

Cloud: ...Jenova. You mean he's been walkin' around with that thing?

The body part from Jenova-BIRTH disappeared and turned into the Materia. Cloud picked it up.

Cloud: So it WAS Sephiroth.



It show Sephiroth is walking around with JENOVA instead of JENOVA being him?


Cloud's group proceeds to the library. At the library, Cloud met Sephiroth again.

Cloud: Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: Being here brings back memories. Are you going to participate in the Reunion?

Cloud: I don't even know what a Reunion is!

Sephiroth: Jenova will be at the Reunion. Jenova will join the Reunion becoming a calamity from the skies.

Cloud: Jenova, a calamity from the skies? You mean she wasn't an Ancient!?

Sephiroth: ...I see. I don't think you have the right to participate. I will go North past Mt. Nibel. If you wish to find out... then follow...

Cloud: ...Reunion? Calamity from the skies?

It appear Sephiroth knows Cloud again.


Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.

Sephiroth disappeared.

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby......

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

Sephiroth left a Jenova for Cloud's group to fight. After Cloud's group defeats Jenova-DEATH...


It appear that this body of "Sephiroth" called Sephiroth "Master". I dun think JENOVA will call Sephiroth master....




Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory...... A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.


It show that JENOVA or her cells? is able change one looks...etc.

So I assume that Sephiroth used one of his clones to take his form and by JENOVA's special ability, it changed to his looks while being controlled by Sephiroth all the while.

[TheAbominatrix]

There's no evidence of the clones being involved in any way. The clones cannot change shape, only JENOVA.

Also, in the quote about JENOVA being carried around, that is because the party assumes Sephiroth is really around. They dont know how or why JENOVA would be assuming Sephiroth's form. Barret is asking a question there, not stating a fact.

[Christmas]

There's no evidence of the clones being involved in any way. The clones cannot change shape, only JENOVA.

Also, in the quote about JENOVA being carried around, that is because the party assumes Sephiroth is really around. They dont know how or why JENOVA would be assuming Sephiroth's form. Barret is asking a question there, not stating a fact.

But what about that "????" guy said?

Anyway, you did mention JENOVA changed shape and Sephiroth mentioned that JENOVA had the ability change one's look which mean JENOVA can change a person look.

Also, wherever you fight Sephiroth in the game besides the final battle, he alway threw a JENOVA's piece at you then the battle commerce, instead of you and Sephiroth went into battle and JENOVA appear as the enemy.

BTW, what's that about Barret?

[TheAbominatrix]

Oops, I meant when Cloud says "So, he's walking around with that thing...?"

Those are good points, and I do wish Masamune or SoS were here to offer their two cents. I, personally, dont believe JENOVA is shifting anyone's appearance but it's own. I dont see enough evidence aside from backwards reasoning. But, of course, I could be wrong.

[Sephitachi7]

It is Jenova that is going around in the form of Sephiroth. Sometimes this body controlled by Sephiroth (when "Sephiroth" recognizes Cloud) and other times controlled by Jenova (when "Sephiroth" doesn't even know Cloud). Jenova is not being carried by Sephiroth because Sephiroth is in the Nothern Crater crystallized. The reason you fight a Jenova part (Jenova-Birth, Jenova Birth, Jenova-Life) everytime you encounter Sephiroth (except for the end) is because Sephiroth is not actually there. So Jenova leaves parts of itself. Cloud and the rest of the crew thinks Sephiroth is actually physically walking around. But that is because they do not know thatit is Jenova's body taking the shape of Sephiroth and not actually Sephiroth. Sorry but that is as clear as I can explain it. If SoS was here he would be able to explain it very well.

[Masamune·1600]

Essentially, the "Sephiroths" encountered throughout the first and beginning of the second discs were directly derivative of JENOVA. In other words, the headless body of JENOVA took on Sephiroth's form. We know that JENOVA has the power to change its own appearance...


Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory...... A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.

...and as a result, it's no great stretch of the imagination to understand that JENOVA could have taken on that form. Even in the Icicle Inn films, JENOVA is referred to by the pronouns "he" and "it." This also suggests, considering that JENOVA is often referred to as "Mother," that the entity has the ability to change its form. Moreover, the forms of JENOVA battled thorughout this period (Jenova∙BIRTH, Jenova∙LIFE, and Jenova∙DEATH) all bear a distorted resemblance to the headless body of JENOVA. While it could be argued that since Sephiroth supposedly carried the body of JENOVA with him, these appearances would not preclude the possibility of Sephiroth really being a CLONE who exactly mirrored the original, this is not consistent with what we know of Sephiroth Clones, and in particular the CLONES (the survivors of the Nibelheim disaster/the figures garbed in black). While free will and self-awareness seem to be wholly submerged, there is no evidence of any real physical transformation.

It's worth noting, by the way, that the lines regarding the ability of JENOVA to "change one's looks" follows this earlier remark by Sephiroth.


Sephiroth: Five years ago you were... ...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece,
right after Nibelheim was burnt. A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her
knowledge, and the power of the Mako. An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even
given a number. ...That is your reality. Ha, ha, ha......

Now, while it's difficult to use these lines as direct evidence, since the actual thrust of the remark is a lie, it's notable that no physical form is mentioned. While the lines are not true as regards Cloud, a being (if one existed) made solely from Mako and the cells of JENOVA would be incomplete, as Sephiroth Clones are [i]people[i] injected with JENOVA cells. Such a being, then, would be constructed entirely from JENOVA, and would arguably be able to change its form.

Further, consider Sephiroth's lines immediately prior to the battle against Jenova∙BIRTH.


Cloud: No... not Sephiroth!

???: ......After a long sleep... ...the time...... ...time has...... come...

Barret: Look, Cloud!

Cloud: Sephiroth! You're alive!

Sephiroth: ......Who are you?

Cloud: You don't remember me!? I'm Cloud!

Sephiroth: Cloud...

Cloud: Sephiroth! What are you thinking!? What are you doing!?

Sephiroth: ...the time...... is now...

Sephiroth's final line here is critical. It seems, at least to me, to be the effective beginning of the Jenova Reunion. Both Sephiroth and the head of JENOVA, after all, are located to the far north; as a result, according to the Jenova Reunion Theory, it makes sense that the body of JENOVA and anyone afflicted with JENOVA cells and lacking the will/consciousness/self-awareness to resist them would move toward that location. If this is the case, however, then the direct action of JENOVA (appropriately taking, all things considered, the form of Sephiroth) is explained. More importantly, though, any action involving the CLONES would only really be starting at this point; therefore, the form of Sephiroth that tore up the Shinra Building would not be one of them.

Further ruminations on JENOVA can be found here (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showpost.php?p=1354557#post1354557).

[zo-sama]

she actualling takes on the form of seph to make cloud think its really seph. cause jenovas just leading him to the real seph (forget why) (all from other people at other forums)

I think this isn't right. Jenova doesn't need to make Cloud go to Sephiroth, he will do it anyway because he has Jenova cells in him. These cells will lead him to the reunion (even though Cloud thinks it's his own free will) along with all the other clones to Sephiroth because that is what the reunion is. It is that no matter where all the Jenova parts are, they will eventually all come togeather in one spot.


Oh and why use seph? cause that is a form cloud "knows" and wants to destroy. "settle the score" as said on midgar unfinished highway.
all to lead him to reunion.

To my knowledge, I don't think Cloud is really motivated to destroy Sephiroth until he kills Aeris.


From here, we can see that Sephiroth seems like he doesn't even know Cloud which might said he is actually JENOVA instead.

Cloud wasn't a Soldier 1st Class, he was a puny foot soldier who Sephiroth probably barely even knew existed. You can't really expect Sephiroth to remember the foot soldiers who accompany him, can you?

I agree with Unknown's edit also. I believe it was Sephiroth's will that controlled the fake Sephiroth around the world. It makes the most sense.

[Big D]

Cloud wasn't a Soldier 1st Class, he was a puny foot soldier who Sephiroth probably barely even knew existed. You can't really expect Sephiroth to remember the foot soldiers who accompany him, can you?Ah, but he was the one who tossed Sephiroth into the Lifestream. Sephiroth didn't recognise him at first ("who are you?", asks the image on board the cargo ship), but apparently later realised who this was, and understood just how much of an illusion he was laboring under.
I agree with Unknown's edit also. I believe it was Sephiroth's will that controlled the fake Sephiroth around the world. It makes the most sense.The 'fake Sephiroth' was, apparently, just a projection of Sephiroth's will combined with Jenova's body. It's clear that Jenova's body is little more than an automaton. It's got no head, and thus no brain or consciousness. It can move and fight on its own, but can't do anything constructive. Sephiroth's conscious mind, however, was able to guide it - and also use it. But it's definitely not Jenova herself who's actively in control. The things Sephiroth talks about, the way he always treats Jenova as a separate entity, are strong evidence of this. Sephiroth's dialogue at the Temple of the Ancients is the best display of this.

I haven't seen Advent Children yet, so can't comment on what it reveals (nor do I want to know; I'll wait and see it for myself)... but nothing from the game suggests that there's a perfect human copy of Sephiroth roaming the world, pretending to be him.

[Christmas]

Anyway, to make this simple, if JENOVA is removed: (mean a "Sephiroth" saved her?)


Um, I thought Sephiroth removed Jenova from the Shinra building... Jenova didn't escape, it was removed.

or she escaped by herself: (She changed form to "Sephiroth"?)


And Sephiroth did NOT open Cloud's door. It was Jenova. If you pay close attention, after you come out from the cell someone (I'm think it was Barret) says that it looks like it was busted from the inside

IMO, is one of the vital point to discuss about.

[Cecinda]

One thing I would like to clear up, Sephiroth did NOT come into Shin-ra headquarters. Sephiroth did NOT take Jenova's body. And Sephiroth did NOT open Cloud's door. It was Jenova

But sephy's sword WAS stuck in Old Shinra's back...(sephy seems to like backstabbing. symbolic?)
Hojo said in the northern crater: "I thought the clones would begin to gather in Midgar, where Jenova is stored, but I was wrong. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra building".
Nuff said.
And did you notice the huge claw marks on the walls? Brrrrr.....
yeah, it must've been Jenova. But she/he/it obviously mutated into Sephiroth and killed the president. Because Palmer said he saw sephiroth and heard his voice. I'm sure palmer knows the difference between sephiroth and Jenova.

[Christmas]

Hojo said in the northern crater: "I thought the clones would begin to gather in Midgar, where Jenova is stored, but I was wrong. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra building".


I guess this clear everything. :kaohappy2

[Sephitachi7]

Yeah, but how did Hojo know that it wasn't Sephiroth like everyone else thought?